1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: I think I will always want to solve Paula's case. 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: I will always follow a tip because I do want 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 2: to know. However, the book that I wrote is very 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 2: much not about the solving of her case. It is 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: very much about all the reasons that I believe that 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 2: she died. 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked On Exactly Right. I've 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 14 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 17 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: writers make and bad. It's a deep dive into the 18 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: stories behind the stories. This episode is about a young 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: life lost. Like many of our episodes, eighteen year old 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: Paula Overbrockling story is not only a tragedy, but it's 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: also a mystery because her killer hasn't been caught. Author 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: Katherine Dykstra's book is titled What Happened to Paula? But 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: there's no question mark at the end. Even though it's 24 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: an unsolved case, it's a lot deeper than that. That's 25 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: because there's more to unpack about this story than just 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: what happened to this young woman. Catherine looks at the 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: circumstances of Paula's case in nineteen seventy Cedar Rapids, Iowa. 28 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: She interviews the suspects, and she examines why Paula remained 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: missing for months before her skeleton was found. Paula's story 30 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: is important because it's about how so many people failed 31 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: her and many women in the area. Okay, tell me 32 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: about the story. How did you start it? 33 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: So this was a book that started for me as 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: an investoration into a crime, and it sort of evolved 35 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: into an investigation over all of the ways that women 36 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 2: are at risk in the world. I began exploring all 37 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: of the different things that I think contributed to her 38 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: walking out the door that night and dying, and those 39 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: things included the racism of the time, the misogyny her class, 40 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: the fact that she came from a family with not 41 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 2: very much money. The book is really about how these 42 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: things come together to make every woman vulnerable. As the 43 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: book sort of progresses, I weave in the stories of 44 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: many other women. There were dead women all over Cedar 45 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: Rapids and all over Iowa in the late nineteen sixties 46 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 2: and continued to be And so as I began looking 47 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 2: into these other sometimes unsolved murders, I saw that there 48 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: were similar pressures working on these girls as we're working 49 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: on Paula. And so I saw that it wasn't just 50 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 2: her that was in this risky situation, but really any 51 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: woman just by virtue of being a woman. Paula was 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 2: one of five children. She was the second child. She 53 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: had an older sister who was about eighteen months older 54 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: than her, so they were very close and grew up 55 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 2: friends as much as sisters. And then she had three 56 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 2: younger brothers that were a bit younger, and her mother 57 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: didn't work. 58 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 3: She was from Oklahoma. She had moved. 59 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: To Cedar Rapids and married Jim Oberbrockling. They had sort 60 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: of a difficult relationship. This is really common for the time, 61 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: but all of these things were accepted. So Jim, he 62 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: was a really gregarious guy. He was really well liked. 63 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: He was highly charismatic. He would go to the bars 64 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: and hang out with his buddies and everyone loved him. 65 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: He did magic tricks, and he was just sort of 66 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: a larger than life personality. He drank and her mother, Carol, 67 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: was this stay at home mother with five children. Jim 68 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: was a insurance salesman and also a shoe salesman at times, 69 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: and so there wasn't a lot of money coming into 70 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: the house. Jim was out hanging out with his buddies 71 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: and having a good time and meeting women and talking 72 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: to women, while Carol was at home with these five children, 73 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: struggling to make ends meet. 74 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 3: So I think that, you know, it's hard. 75 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: To know how much Paula saw of that, or how 76 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: much she understood of what was going on between her parents. 77 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 3: She had to have vibed some of that. 78 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: When I started to think about Carol Oberbrockling as a 79 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 2: model for Paula, as all mothers are models for their daughters, 80 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: she came across to me as someone who was very brave, 81 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 2: because sixteen years into their marriage, Carol left Jim. This 82 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,119 Speaker 2: was a really difficult thing to do at the time, right, 83 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: I mean, it's difficult to do now. But she was 84 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 2: a woman who had five children. She didn't have an income. 85 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 2: She had to go on welfare and cobble together all 86 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 2: of these jobs qualified for much. She didn't have a 87 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 2: college education. She had to do this in order to 88 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: leave her husband. So in my eyes, I see that 89 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: as a very brave act. Because we talk about that 90 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: time period as oh, yeah, this was, you know, the 91 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: sexual Revolution, and women were leaving their husbands. It's easy 92 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: to look back on that time period and sort of 93 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: identify it as one thing. 94 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: It's women's liberation. 95 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 2: And the fact of the matter is that they still 96 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: have to figure out a way to pay for their 97 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: lives and support their children, and that was still really 98 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: difficult because there were so many things working against women 99 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 2: at the time. You know, women couldn't file for credit cards. 100 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: You know. 101 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: As I was thinking about this story, I wondered how 102 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: that would have affected Paula. 103 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: Do we have any idea what Jim's reaction was to this. 104 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: He was interesting, Like I said, he was this charismatic guy, 105 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 2: and I think it was difficult for her to leave 106 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: her marriage. I think they sort of went back and forth, 107 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: and she tried to leave him a number of times, 108 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 2: and for whatever reason he was able to talk her back, 109 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: or she became afraid and didn't think she could support 110 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: her family. And she tells a story about the day 111 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 2: that the divorce finally came through and she and Jim 112 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: are sitting in the back with the family under I 113 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: guess they had a willow tree in the back of 114 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 2: their house. Jim says to her, he's crying, and he says, Carrie, 115 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: that's what he called her. Promised me one thing, Promise 116 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 2: me that if you ever get married again, you'll get 117 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 2: married to me. Carol says, oh, well, that's easy, I 118 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: promise because she knew she would never get married again, 119 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: you know, certainly not to him, and that for me 120 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: also said a lot about her perspective on relationships and 121 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 2: her own autonomy and her need to sort of stand 122 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 2: on her two feet. This idea that I know I'm 123 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: never getting married again. This is not something I want. 124 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 4: At this time period. What is happening with Paula. Her 125 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 4: mom has left her father. 126 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: Doesn't sound like it was too acrimonious, but still there's trust. 127 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: When she was younger, I mentioned her older sister Lynn. 128 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 2: She sort of followed Lynn around really looked up to 129 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: her and modeled her behavior after Lynn and they started 130 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: in Catholic school. There was a Catholic school at the 131 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: end of their block. When Paula was a sophomore, I 132 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: believe she and Lynn started hanging out at this park 133 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: in Cedar Rapids called Beaver Park, and this was kind 134 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: of like where all the kids would hang out. In 135 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: my understanding, it was sort of the first time that 136 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: their world was broadened, right, So they were going to 137 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: this Catholic school that was literally at the end of 138 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: their block, so the world was only that big. But 139 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 2: then they were introduced to this coming to Beaver Park. 140 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: So they would go to Beaver Park and this is 141 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: where kids from all over Cedar Rapids would come, and 142 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: so suddenly they were meeting public school kids and people 143 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: from all over town. Cedar Rapids was highly segregated in 144 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine. However, there was a small black population, 145 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: and so those black kids would come to Beaver Park too, 146 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: So it was like the school intermixing of everybody, and 147 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: I think that Paula and I assume Lynn really loved it. 148 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: They were having fun, they were meeting people. That was exciting, 149 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: and so they started to beg their parents to go 150 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: to the public school, Washington High School. Eventually Jim says, okay, 151 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: I'll let you go as long as you keep your 152 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: grades up. They go to Washington. Suddenly Paula evolves from 153 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: this shy, insecure girl into this confident woman. She starts 154 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 2: wearing makeup, and she was highly fashionable. 155 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 4: She was beautiful, interested in boys. 156 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 3: She was noticed by everyone. 157 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: All of the students noticed her, So she was getting 158 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: attention from boys all over the place, maybe even too much. 159 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: She's feeling more confident in herself, but that doesn't necessarily 160 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 2: mean that she's ready for sex or ready to be 161 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: in relationship. She's just becoming herself. 162 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: She's been in such a book for a long time 163 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: that her chronological age I'm sure does not match up 164 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: with her maturity one percent. 165 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 4: And how old does she at this point? 166 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: Remind me, she's probably sixteen seventeen when she entered Washington. 167 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: A Lynn is Whateen seventeen eighteen. Yeah, so they're yeah, 168 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: they're about a year difference, and they were one year 169 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 2: different in school. 170 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: I'm guessing that Jim had a pretty heavy hand in 171 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: all of his kids involvement socially. 172 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 4: Would you think is he kind of a control freak. 173 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say so. He seemed a little more checked 174 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 2: out and easy going than. 175 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 4: Detached kind of God, yeah, like easy going. 176 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: He's around sometimes when he's around. And Carol was really 177 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: the one who was much more involved in the girls' 178 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: lives and had many more opinions about their behavior. So 179 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: she's starting at Washington and she's getting all of this attention, 180 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: and I can only imagine that this attention was overwhelming. 181 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: I think boys were calling her, and Lynn tells a 182 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 2: story about paula sort of pawning off her dates on 183 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 2: Lynn sometimes, like saying to Lynn, so and so is 184 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 2: going to call he wants to go out with me, 185 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 2: but you're going to go out with it, oh, and 186 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: Lynn being like, no, no, no, that's not what I 187 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 2: want either. I sense that it was both things. That 188 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: she was coming out of her bubble and at the 189 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: same time overwhelmed by all of the attention that was 190 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 2: around her, and there was a lot what. 191 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: A confusing time for anyone who's sixteen years old, and 192 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: it just would have been overwhelming no matter what she did. 193 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: That's okay, So that's interesting. So she's getting a lot 194 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: of attention. Does she settle on any one boy. 195 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: She met Robert Williams one afternoon in Washington. She had 196 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 2: I think somebody had taken her money, had stolen her money, 197 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 2: and she was upset, and Robert saw her and came 198 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: over and offered to buy. 199 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 4: Her a coke night shining armor. 200 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, very much so. 201 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: And then they started talking, and I guess there was chemistry, 202 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: and he began calling her and they began going out, 203 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: and it was I think an exciting time for both 204 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 2: of them, but they had to hide their relationship because 205 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: Robert was black. I really struggled to understand exactly how 206 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: the races perceived one another in Cedar Rapids at that time, 207 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 2: because I do feel, and I had lots of anecdotal 208 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: evidence that there were quite a few interracial relationships. However, 209 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier, the town was highly segregated and 210 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: there were instances of racial strife that would sort of 211 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: bubble up. There was a lot of action in cities 212 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 2: in Detroit and DC exactly, but this didn't really touch 213 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 2: Cedar Rapids. It was very quiet there. This was partially 214 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 2: because the black community was so small. Cedar Rapids was 215 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: like one hundred and ten thousand people at the time, 216 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: so it's a small city as it is. And then 217 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: the black community, I think it was two thousand people 218 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: and they all lived in one community. They were a 219 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: commune unity that were carefully eking out social change for themselves. 220 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: But while being very mindful of not to rofle any feathers. 221 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: They needed to live there, they needed to get jobs. 222 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: So as Paula and Robert are getting together, I think 223 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: it was complicated for both of them. Carol Oberbrouckling was 224 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: not okay that Robert was black, and Paula kept this 225 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: a secret from her for a while. Robert was aware 226 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 2: of There was another high school kid who, maybe two 227 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: years before Paula entered Washington, was beat up after a 228 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: basketball game lacerations on his face wound up in the 229 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: hospital for three days. Though the newspaper doesn't say exactly 230 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: what happened, it's widely known his infraction was that he 231 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: had dated a white girl. So it was a risk 232 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 2: for Robert as well, and then Paula of course was 233 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 2: risking the ire of her mother. 234 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: How did Carol find out? Ultimately, do we have any 235 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: idea how long they had been dating. 236 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 2: I don't think it could have been that long, maybe 237 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 2: four months. My sense is that they started dating in 238 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: the fall, and then in the spring, the Washington High 239 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: school basketball team. 240 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 3: Of which Robert was one of the stars of the. 241 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: Basketball team, had gone to the state championships. 242 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 4: I believe the. 243 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 2: Oberbrockling family had gathered to watch the championship on TV. 244 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: Carol knew that Paula had been dating someone, and she 245 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: knew that his name was Robert. Carol had started calling 246 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 2: Robert mister basketball. Go mister basketball, mister basketball. That was 247 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 2: how they would refer to him to Paula as just 248 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: like an endearing thing. So they're watching this game all 249 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 2: in the living room and somebody looks up at the 250 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: TV and says, oh, there's mister basketball, and Carol's jaw 251 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 2: just drops. 252 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 3: Wait a minute, that's him. 253 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 2: It was secret, but also it was very difficult for 254 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 2: me to tell how many people knew about their relationship, 255 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: because there were many people who told me years after 256 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: the fact that they had no idea that Paula and 257 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: Robert were dating. And then there were other people who 258 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 2: told me Paula and Robert were such an amazing cup 259 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: because he was handsome and you know, maybe a little goofy. 260 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 2: We wore glasses. He looked kind of studious, but I 261 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: would say handsome. And they just made this striking couple, right, 262 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 2: tall and blonde and model beautiful. And then in that telling, 263 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: it seems that everybody knows. 264 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: So Carol finds out right through mister basketball. 265 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 4: Right. Is there a public reaction during this game or 266 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 4: what ends up happening? 267 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know what happened in that moment, but 268 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: I do know that days and weeks that followed were 269 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: highly contentious. So Paula already was in that I would 270 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: say very normal place as a teenage girl of separating 271 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: from her mother. 272 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 3: That's what we do developmentally. 273 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: We're attached to our mother and it's a solow separation process, 274 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: and then in our teens it becomes sort of more swift. 275 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 2: And I think that that happens in many ways. You know, 276 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: it can be a sort of a calm process, or 277 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: it can be chaotic, and I think for a lot 278 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: of teenaged girls, including myself, I think that those rifts 279 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: become very chaotic and it can be almost difficult to separate. 280 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: And I think that that's sometimes because mother is cling. 281 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 2: So Paula was already in this place where she was 282 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: exploring her autonomy and feeling confident in her independence and 283 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: becoming herself, and that already had Carol a little bit 284 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: on edge. So Paula would do things like sneak out 285 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: at nights to meet her friends. She was smoking cigarettes 286 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: and you know, just doing all the normal things that 287 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: teenagers do. 288 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: And I think it was difficult for Carol. 289 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: So then add in the Robert situation, and I think 290 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: it just really served to make the relationship very difficult. 291 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: So what happens next in Paula's life. There's now tension 292 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: between Carol the mother and Paula. 293 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: Right, so, after the reveal of Robert's race, and after 294 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: Carol and Jim have split, and while Carol and Paula 295 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 2: are struggling to sort of be in the same room together. Frankly, 296 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: I think there was a lot of combativeness. Paula comes 297 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: to Carol at one point and says, I'm moving out. 298 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: I'm leaving. So she's eighteen years old, and Carol says 299 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: to her, this is what Carol told us. Carol says 300 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: to her, does this have something to do with Robert? 301 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: And Paula says to Carol, no, it doesn't but of 302 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: course she knew that it did. And indeed, Paula ends 303 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 2: up renting an apartment in a house that's maybe two 304 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 2: or three blocks from where Robert lives with his mother, 305 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: with what money. Though she had a job, she was 306 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: working in the Missis department at the mall, she didn't 307 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: stay there for very long, so her and Robert's relationship 308 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: had become sort of rocky. After he graduated, so he 309 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: was in Lynn's class, so he graduated with Lynn first first, 310 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: and that following year he wanted to go play basketball 311 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 2: and go out for a college team, and he was, 312 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 2: I think, back and forth between different colleges doing tryouts. 313 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: In a way that he explained it was that he 314 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 2: was not there very much. And I think during that 315 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: time Paula either because of the pressure put on her 316 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: by Carol, which frankly I think was a lot, or 317 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: because of her own misgivings, not because of his race, 318 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 2: but just because of the relationship, or because she met 319 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 2: someone else she was pulling away from Robert. I would 320 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 2: say they were very oft and on. I sense that 321 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: when he came to town they spent time together, but 322 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: when he was away, it was like they weren't in 323 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: very close touch. She's dating other people. She's for sure 324 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: dating other people. She's eighteen. Why can't she go out 325 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 2: with whoever she wants to. She's not married to these people. 326 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: And I just felt this real. You know, she's seventeen, 327 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 2: eighteen years old. 328 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: I felt to like. 329 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 4: An empathy for somebody at that age. 330 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 2: Yes, So she starts seeing other people, and this is 331 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: when she meets Lonnie Bell. Lonnie Bell is twenty one 332 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 2: years old. He's already graduated, so he's older than she is. 333 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 2: They met at a lake one day, hanging out, and 334 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 2: then months later they started hanging out again. 335 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 3: So Paula she stayed in. 336 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 2: The house by Robert's house for a very short period 337 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: of time, less than a few months, and then she 338 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: moved again. And she moved again because at this point 339 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 2: she had decided that she was breaking things off with 340 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: Robert in order to date Lonnie Bell. And my sense 341 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: of her relationship with Lonnie Bell was that it was 342 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: highly contentious as well. Debbie Kellogg, who was Paula's roommate, 343 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 2: says that Paula never really even liked Lonnie that much. 344 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 3: Lonnie was kind. 345 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: Of a wild card. I think she was a little 346 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: rash and maybe not the easiest person to be around. 347 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 4: Is he black? Also, no, he's white. 348 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 2: There was no one that I interviewed that was like, 349 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: oh I loved Lonnie. 350 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, so he's a bad boy and she's attracted 351 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: to this type of boy maybe this one time. 352 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: I don't Yeah, I don't even know that she was 353 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 2: that attracted to him. There's a part of me that 354 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 2: thinks that maybe she trying to appease her mother by 355 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 2: dating a white. 356 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: Guy, or maybe it's a good excuse, yeah, to break 357 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: up with Roberts, yeah, or something to do. 358 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: I mean, just you know, she's eighteen, exactly exactly. I 359 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: think that maybe they had fun together and he was 360 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 2: in circles, maybe that she wanted to run in, and 361 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: so they started hanging out. But even that didn't last 362 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: very long because she died. 363 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: We're talking with author Catherine Dykstra about her book What 364 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: Happened to Paula, a. 365 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 4: Fifty year old cold case. 366 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: Eighteen year old Paula Overbrockling has broken up with her boyfriend, 367 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: Robert Maybe, and now she's dating a new man, Lonnie Bell, 368 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: who seems to be a little bit of a troublemaker. 369 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: So This is in June of nineteen seventy. She's just 370 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: graduated high school. She is now living in this twelve 371 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 2: dollars week boarding house. On June tenth, she checks out 372 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 2: from work, you know, at about nine o'clock and comes 373 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 2: out and Lonnie's waiting for her there with his red 374 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 2: Porsche and Ben Carol, who's a friend of hers, and 375 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 2: their plan is to go to this concert concert. 376 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 3: I use that word loosely. I guess this show at 377 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 3: like a bar. 378 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 2: They drive across town to the Nowhere Lounge and the 379 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 2: Nowhere all Out yea, and at some point in the night, 380 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 2: around eleven twelve o'clock, Paula says that she's ready to 381 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: be taken home. And a lot of this is really 382 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: difficult for me to nail down because there are differing stories. 383 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: When I looked at the case file, when I looked 384 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: at the interviews, there's no one narrative. 385 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 3: I'm telling you what I think. 386 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: A lot of people accept the narrative, but I don't 387 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: necessarily know. 388 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 3: That it's what really happened, right exactly. 389 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 2: So they get into Ben Carroll's Mustang, and this is 390 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 2: all three of them according to this first story, Lannie, 391 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: Ben and Paula, and they drive back to Paula's house 392 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 2: and they drop her off, and then Ben and Lannie 393 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: continue on their night. There's a whole raft of things 394 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: that they did or maybe didn't do that night, and 395 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 2: Paula comes in. Debbie Kellogg, her roommate, tells police that 396 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: Paula was upset. 397 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 3: Okay, she's crying. 398 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: Debbie had just gotten off work herself earlier in the 399 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: evening and Debbie goes to bed because she's got to 400 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 2: work the next day. And suddenly Paula is knocking at 401 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: her door at some point and saying, can I borrow 402 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: your car really quick? And Debbie agrees, and so Paula 403 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 2: takes her keys, and that's sort of it, right, So she. 404 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 4: Leaves disappears after this. 405 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were a couple people who saw her that night. 406 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 2: Debbie drove a Nova and the Nova's gears would stick. 407 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 2: I guess this was like a common problem of cars 408 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 2: at the time this happened. 409 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 3: And Paula was pulled over ten minutes. 410 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 2: Away from her house, and this merchant policeman stops to 411 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 2: help her. Because I guess it takes two people and 412 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 2: somebody under the hood, and then somebody in the car 413 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 2: in order to get these gears unstuck. 414 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 4: Wait, what's a merchant policeman? 415 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 3: Almost like a run a cop I even know that exists. 416 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, this merchant policeman helps her get the 417 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: car started. First Avenue is where all the kids crews. 418 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: There are these girls who said, oh, yeah, I saw 419 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 2: Paula that evening with this guy helping her under the car, 420 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 2: and then they have circled back around to go see 421 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 2: if she was still there. 422 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 4: That was it. 423 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 3: She was gone. 424 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,479 Speaker 2: So those were effectively the last people to see Paula. 425 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: But the last person to have contact with her is 426 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: this merchant policeman. 427 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 2: Oh yes, he turns up in the police file. He 428 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 2: came out of the woodwork. Must have read about it 429 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: and came to tell the police what he knew. 430 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, so she is gone. 431 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: So she's gone. 432 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. So the next morning Debbie wakes up her car 433 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 2: is gone. She considers Paula a responsible friend and is 434 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: very confused by the fact that. 435 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: Her car is not back. 436 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: She's calling Carol and Lonnie and Lynn and saying, have 437 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 2: you seen Paula. 438 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 3: Paula was supposed to be at work. 439 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 2: The next morning. Carol calls the manager. No, she hasn't 440 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: shown up there, so everybody's of course very worried. A 441 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 2: few of them get together and they start driving around 442 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: looking for the Nova, and they find it abandoned outside 443 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 2: of sort of like a quickimart and under a no 444 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 2: parking sign. So they're hoping it's going to get towed 445 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 2: maybe I don't know. So they find the car keys 446 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 2: are gone, there's no purse. 447 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: Carol Oberbrockling phones the police. 448 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 2: The police show up and rather than dust for fingerprints 449 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 2: or look at the car at all, they tell Debbie 450 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: that she needs to move it or else it's going 451 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 2: to get towed ome right, So this this. 452 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: Is the real police force, the not the merchant police. 453 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: No, so this is the attitude of the of the police. 454 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 2: And frankly it continues when they told them to get 455 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: the car out of the way. Carol's telling them Paula 456 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 2: might have been a lot of things. She might you know, 457 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: she might have been a partier, but she and Debbie 458 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: and everyone is telling them she doesn't disappear. She's a 459 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: responsible person. And we don't feel good about this, and 460 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 2: I don't feel that they took them seriously. So that is, 461 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 2: in fact what the police told Carol, they said, oh, 462 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 2: she's probably at some concert like Woodstock. 463 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: You know. 464 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: I feel like it's that cavalier attitude that led to 465 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 2: a lot of last time. 466 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 4: So what happens They moved the car obviously. Yeah. 467 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 2: So days went by before the police conducted their first 468 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: real interview with Carol. I think it was something like 469 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 2: four days before they finally show up at Carol's store 470 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 2: and she's calling everyone. At this point, she's she has 471 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: a contact at the Cedar Rapids Gazette, someone that she knows. 472 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 2: She's saying, can you write a story? Can you post something? 473 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: And yet well, and the editor comes back and she says, Nope, nobody. 474 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 3: Here is interested in your girl. 475 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: Basically, she just got this complete disinterest from everyone. 476 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: Is that because of her socioeconomic status? 477 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 3: I sense that it is so. 478 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 2: As Carol tells the police in this first interview, she 479 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 2: let police know that Paula thought that she might have 480 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: been pregnant, So I think it's that too. I think 481 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: from the police's standpoint, having premarital sex. 482 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 3: She's from this family. 483 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 4: Who did she think the dad was? 484 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: So she was seeing both Lannie and Robert kind of 485 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 2: in that lead up. 486 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 4: Did Debbie have a hypothesis about the pregnancy. 487 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 3: So Debbie says that she didn't know. 488 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: That would be surprising, wouldn't you think, Yeah, I would think. 489 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 4: Tell me again, remind me who brought up the pregnancy thing. 490 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 2: This story is so complex because there are so many mysteries. 491 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 4: People are trying to protect themselves. 492 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 2: I think that's true, and that gets into what I 493 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: was saying earlier about this being about risks associated with 494 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: being a woman, because if Paulo were pregnant, I think 495 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 2: that it's possible that even anyone who knew would be 496 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 2: trying to protect her reputation by not telling anyone. This 497 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: is a period of time where being pregnant was one 498 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 2: of the very worst things for a young girl, for 499 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 2: someone who wasn't married, it would be devastating to your 500 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 2: entire life. You would be judged and shamed. And there 501 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 2: was so much writing on. 502 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 4: This, particularly in a small city like sia Rapha. 503 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: Exactly everybody one another right, and she's Catholic. Maybe there 504 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: were people who knew and felt that they needed for 505 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 2: it to be a secret. 506 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: We are now kind of getting into your main sources, 507 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: so I'll recap. Carol is her mother, Jim is her father, 508 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 1: Lenna's her older sister. She's dating Robert and Lonnie, and 509 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: her really good friend and roommate. 510 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 4: Is Debbie Killogg. That's kind of all of these people. 511 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: I know you didn't speak to everyone, your mother in 512 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: law didn't speak to everyone. 513 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 4: But who is the most reliable source? Do you think 514 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 4: it sounds like Paly Debbie? Wouldn't you think Debbie would 515 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 4: have the least. 516 00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 3: It's very difficult to know. 517 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 2: I don't think that anyone lied to the police, and 518 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: I don't think that they lied to me. But I 519 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: think that there was just a lot of complications with 520 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 2: regard to keeping her reputation intact. So I think it 521 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 2: means that it's possible that somebody knew she was pregnant 522 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: and didn't say something at the time. 523 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 3: I don't know. That's a tough one. 524 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: So four days they interviewed Carol, the nova has been impounded. 525 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: I'm assuming are they now looking for fingerprints? 526 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 4: No? 527 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 3: So, yeah, it's rough. I mean, it was a small town. 528 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 2: They went around, they talked to a handful of high 529 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: school kids and tried to search for her. But these 530 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 2: interviews and this part of the case file really only 531 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 2: lasts a month. You know, there's daily interviews that are 532 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: done in the case file in July, and then there's 533 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 2: a few in August, and then one in September, and 534 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: by October November, they've basically stopped looking. And then after Thanksgiving, 535 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: Carolyn Lynn get a call from the police and they 536 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: say that they want to come see them. And it 537 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: turns out that two boys had been hiking with their 538 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: father and they had found human remains adjacent the Cedar River, 539 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 2: just beyond the mouth of this colvert, a pipe that 540 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: diverts rainwater under railroad tracks. They had found this skeleton. Yeah, 541 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: it was awful, and her body had been sort of 542 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 2: horseshoed around a steak that you would use to secure 543 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 2: a pole. A guy wires steak, I think is what 544 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 2: they call them. The skeleton had on the dress that 545 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 2: Paula had been wearing. 546 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: Is that how they identified her? 547 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 3: They identified her with dental records. 548 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: Okay, sometimes I can't play what's available and what's not 549 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: available in a. 550 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 4: Different time period. 551 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: No, I'm used to the eighteen hundreds where almost nothing 552 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: was available, right. 553 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, they were able to use it. 554 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 2: Dental records to identify her, and of course they told 555 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: the family, and while I think I know that it 556 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: was devastating to them, Carol says that there was also 557 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: like a weird relief. Finally she knew where her daughter 558 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: was because this whole time, that whole four months, she 559 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 2: didn't know. So cause it so, there is none because 560 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 2: her remains were too decomposed. According to the autopsy, she 561 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: was just too far decomposed for them to tell what 562 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: had happened. 563 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 4: Where do they think she died? 564 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: Would it have been she was dumped into the river 565 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: and she had washed up, or. 566 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 2: No, the river was far she was either dumped right there, 567 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 2: or she was dumped maybe at the top of this 568 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 2: culvert and maybe washed through. 569 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: So tell me what happens next. Carol's devastated. Is Jim 570 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: devastated as well? 571 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 4: Do we know? 572 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, so Jim actually is across the country at 573 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: this point. After he Carol divorced, he moved to Colorado, 574 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: and so he's actually not there, although of course Carol 575 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 2: calls him, and you know, I'm sure they're both devastated together. 576 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 2: The next six months, there's very heavy interviews with many 577 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 2: people who bring up many scenarios to the police. 578 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: It's murder and now the police are going to revisit 579 00:29:58,800 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: because they have a body. 580 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 4: Is there lots of media attention and cedar rapids. 581 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 2: So, first of all, I don't call it murder in 582 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: my books. It's homicide since we don't know how she 583 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: died and there are other potential ways that might not 584 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: have been murder, so I have used the term homicide. 585 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 4: There's barely any media attention, so surprising to me. 586 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 3: It really is. 587 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: So there were basically three stories ever written about her death, 588 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 2: one of which was her obituary, the discovery of her 589 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: body a follow up her obituary, and I think that 590 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: was about it. 591 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: Does this circle back to your idea of socioeconomic everything 592 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: that she represented in this town, Yes, including being a woman. 593 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 4: Yes. 594 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 2: You know, when I look at this case, I see 595 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: all of the ways this girl has failed. She was 596 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 2: failed by the media who didn't cover the case. She 597 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: was failed by the systems in place that had her 598 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: with very little opportunity and a way out that she 599 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 2: was failed by all of the shaming that happens in 600 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 2: towns like this. At times like this, the idea is 601 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: that women could only be these one things, and anything 602 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 2: outside of the box was somehow deviant. And I really 603 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 2: feel that there were so many things that sort of 604 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 2: came together, you know, that really conspired against her and 605 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: girls like her. 606 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 4: So the case went cold. 607 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 2: The case went cold. Yeah, what's interesting is the pregnancy 608 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 2: is a big question, right, So if she's pregnant. One 609 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 2: of the things that came up multiple times in the 610 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: case file where people were saying that she had gone 611 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: to go get an abortion. So this is three years 612 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: before Roe v. 613 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 3: Wade. It's nineteen seventy. Abortion is illegal. 614 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 2: Obviously, first it comes up, Oh, she went to Florida 615 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 2: to go get an abortion. Well, it sort of ends 616 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: up crystallizing around this chiropractor who had been I actually 617 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 2: was able to interview someone that had gotten an abortion 618 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 2: by him. Wow, Yeah, who had been giving illegal abortions 619 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: during the time in cedar rapids, in cedar rapids. Yes, 620 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 2: in his wife's hair salon. 621 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 622 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 2: He was a shady guy. But the police never interviewed him. 623 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: They never went to his door. Many people brought up 624 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 2: his name enough that this seemed like at least a possibility. 625 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 3: They never followed up on this. 626 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 4: Did they settle on anybody? Were they leaning towards Robert 627 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 4: or Nardell? 628 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 2: Laura never really seemed to be a suspect. That's good, 629 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 2: which is interesting considering the time. They sort of cleared 630 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 2: everybody very quickly. Robert had been at a an all 631 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 2: night party that night. 632 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 4: Toy's aliban, I got, yeah, but. 633 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: Literally one person in the whole file is like, I 634 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 2: think I saw Robert at that party. 635 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a party is a terrible alibi, just 636 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: in general, you would think with all of those people, 637 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: but it's also so easy to disappear from a party. 638 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 2: And then Lonnie was alibi. They said, oh, well, so 639 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: Paula was tall, And they said, oh well, Paula would 640 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: never fit in Lonnie's trunk. That's why it wasn't Lonnie right, 641 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 2: which is ridiculous because could she fit in the pastor's seat, 642 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: could she fit in the back seat? 643 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 4: Did he have an alibi Lonnie? 644 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 2: No, Lonnie was driving around that whole night. 645 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: We don't have any idea why Paula was upset when 646 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: she left them to begin with that night. 647 00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 4: No, Debbie just knows that she was. 648 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: Do you have hope for this case? What is the 649 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: potential to happen? 650 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: It's interesting I met with the cold case detectives a 651 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 2: number of times and there was another girl who had 652 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: been murdered in Cedar Rapids, and I think it was 653 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: seven years after Paula, so this would have been seventy seven, 654 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: and her name was Michelle Martinko, and she was stabbed 655 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: to death in her car in a mall parking lot, 656 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 2: and her case was also unsolved for nearly as long, 657 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: but then maybe in twenty eighteen, the police were able 658 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 2: to obtain DNA from the interior of the car some 659 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 2: bit that they had saved, and with that DNA they 660 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 2: created first a profile of the suspect and there was 661 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 2: an image and probable weight and build, an eye color 662 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 2: and hair color and all this stuff. And then they 663 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 2: were able to take that same DNA a few years later, 664 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 2: with even more advancements and those sort of gene companies 665 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: twenty three and meters, and they were able to send 666 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: it there and they found a familial match, and they 667 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 2: narrowed it down to these three brothers, and they ended 668 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: up taking DNA off of a straw that one guy 669 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 2: was using in a pizza place, and they identified that 670 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: it was a match. That person has just been convicted 671 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 2: of Michelle Martinko's murder, you know, And this all happened 672 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 2: while I was reporting Paula's case. 673 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 3: The thing that is so. 674 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 2: Infuriating is they don't have DNA from Paula by the 675 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 2: time November ruled around and they finally asked Debbie Kellogg 676 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 2: to bring in her car. Debbie was like, h I've 677 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 2: washed my car like six times since this, of course, 678 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: and not only that, but her hands and wrists had 679 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 2: been bound, so the bindings the dress. When I spoke 680 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 2: with the Cold case detectives, there was a terrible flood 681 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: in Cedar Rapids in two thousand and eight. Their contention 682 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 2: is that all of the evidence that had gone along 683 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 2: with the Oberbrockling case had all been damaged by floodwater, 684 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: so there's no DNA there this Cold case team. My 685 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 2: sense is the retired detectives and I think that there's 686 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: lower hanging fruit. I think this is a hard solt, 687 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: whereas there are other cases plenty where there's actual DNA 688 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 2: evidence in that they consider, you know, low hanging fruit. 689 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: This sounds like a ex wife coming to the police 690 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: and saying, my husband's been talking about this. 691 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 2: I do think that, but it's hard because at this point, 692 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: so you know, we're fifty years on there are so 693 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 2: many people that are gone. 694 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 4: Is Lonnie still around? 695 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: He is? 696 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 4: Did you get to talk to him? 697 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 3: I did a couple times. 698 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 4: What was that like? 699 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: I think Wannie's had a really hard life. Maybe he 700 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: wasn't in the best shape. 701 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 4: What about Robert Williams? 702 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 3: So Robert died last year? 703 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 4: Oh did you get to talk. 704 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 2: To him before? I did speak with him, But now 705 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 2: he's gone too, So. 706 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: So you're running out of people who know who and 707 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: her family that you spoke to. 708 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 4: Is the torch bearer in this case? Is it her sister? 709 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 4: Is there one? I don't know. They've all come to 710 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 4: peace with it. 711 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 2: Maybe I think that that's true because our mother's gone, 712 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 2: her mother has gone, her father has gone, one of 713 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 2: her brothers has gone. 714 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 3: I think that they've had to learn to live with this. 715 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 4: Tell me why your mother in law was invested in this. 716 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 2: My mother in law, Susan Taylor Chehawk, went to school 717 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 2: with Paula. They were different years, and I think they 718 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 2: only overlapped or maybe not at all. Paula was sort 719 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 2: of legend at school. 720 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 4: And this is at Washington HU. 721 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,959 Speaker 2: This is at Washington High School exactly. And my mother 722 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 2: in law ended up going to boarding school. She was 723 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 2: shipped off for the same things that Paula might have 724 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: had her mother had any money, right like, so if 725 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,919 Speaker 2: Carol Oberbrockln had money, then maybe she would have also 726 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 2: been able to send her unruly daughter to boarding school 727 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 2: like Susan's parents were able to do with her when 728 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 2: she started acting out or not following the rules. Ober 729 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 2: Brocklings didn't have money, so they weren't able to do this. 730 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 2: So Susan goes to boarding school, and after boarding school, 731 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 2: she hears the news of paul Oberbrockling's death and it 732 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 2: was something that just never left her. She wondered for years, 733 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 2: and then she was in Cedar Rabbids and she decided 734 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 2: she wanted to learn more. 735 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 4: You know. 736 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 2: The thing about what happened to Paula also is is 737 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 2: she was forgotten. Her family obviously didn't forget her, and 738 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 2: the people who cared about her obviously didn't forget her. 739 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 2: This happened, the police file was closed within two or 740 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 2: three years. There's no media, there's no one being like, 741 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 2: what happened to this girl? 742 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 3: It was just nothing. It was just silence for decades. 743 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: Susan decides, whatever happened with this thing like it was 744 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: never solved whatever happened to this girl? And so she 745 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: is able to obtain a court order for the case file. 746 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: She had done more than ten years of research before 747 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 2: I ever came on bloh booh yeah, And so she 748 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 2: was able to speak with many people who I was 749 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 2: never able to speak with. Carol, for example, was dead 750 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: by the time that I came on to the project. 751 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 2: But between the two of us, we were able to 752 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 2: speak with Carol, and Lynn, Robert, and Monni Bell, a 753 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 2: number of her friends and people that knew her during school. 754 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 2: The book becomes a layering in of other women's stories, 755 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 2: So those women and the people that surrounded them were 756 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: also people that I spoke with. 757 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 3: We spoke with quite a few people. 758 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 2: I became enraged for Paula, for the way that her 759 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 2: case had been painted, and for the way that she 760 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: had been given up on. And I think I will 761 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: always want to solve Paula's case. Since the books come out, 762 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 2: I've gotten a lot of tips and stuff. I will 763 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 2: always follow a tip because I do want to know. However, 764 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 2: the book that I wrote is very much not about 765 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 2: the solving of her case. It is very much about 766 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 2: all the reasons that I believe that she died. 767 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. I think that 768 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: whoever did kill Bessie Ferguson to Oscar was your golden 769 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: state killer until he was caught. 770 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 4: I think this was the case for him. This was 771 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 4: the case that haunted him. 772 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and to go to your grave without an answer, 773 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, I absolutely empathize with how he was feeling 774 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 1: about that. If you love historical true crime, please check 775 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: out my books American Sherlock and Death in the year 776 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: this has been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production 777 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: Alexis and Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our 778 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: sound designer. Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis 779 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: Heath does the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and 780 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: Ilsa Brink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, 781 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram 782 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at 783 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: tenfold more. If you are an advertiser interested in advertising 784 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: on our show, go to midroll dot com slash ads 785 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,720 Speaker 1: and if you know of a historical true crime story 786 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: that could use some attention from the crew at tenfold 787 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: more Wicked. Email us at info at tenfoldmoorwicked dot com, Listen, 788 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, 789 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts