1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stepman 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: never told you protection of iHeart Radio. So as this 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: comes out, it is JUNEO. Is this Pride month? Um? 4 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: So happy Pride? And yeah, and recently we did an 5 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: episode on Women around the World where we just kind 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: of talked about our influences and inspirations in the queer community, 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: and I mentioned the book Unapologetic, So I thought, you know, 8 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: especially as people safely are going on trips perhaps and 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: you're looking for something to read and you haven't read 10 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: this one here regard again recommending it. Yes, uh so 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and 12 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: Samantha and welcome to stuff I've Never told Reproductive I 13 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Today we have another episode of book club 14 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: for you, and we are very excited to be talking 15 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: about Unapologetic, a Black queer and feminist Mandate for Radical 16 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,199 Speaker 1: Movements by Charlene A. Carruthers. And this is a very 17 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: timely book for a lot of reasons, probably a lot 18 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: of them obvious. It takes a look at black intellectual 19 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: thought and organizing and grassroots movements like the Haitian Revolution, 20 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: civil rights movement here in the United States, um, feminism, 21 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: and the l g B, t Q plus movements to 22 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:51,919 Speaker 1: provide a flexible model for for organizing, while also calling 23 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: for a more queer and feminist approach to black liberation 24 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: and a more radical approach as well. The book deals 25 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: into all the tools of white supremacy that white supremacy 26 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: uses to function to keep oppressors in power, tools like 27 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: the patriarchy and feminism and homophobia and able is um. 28 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: Through her years of organizing, There's also has recommendations for 29 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: improving the longevity and effectiveness of social justice movements with 30 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: things like healing justice within these movements themselves and developing 31 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: leaders so very very timely. Yes. She also re examines 32 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: several of the common issues that come up and organizing, 33 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: the unhelpful comparisons to pass movements, or the generational disconnect 34 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: social media. In fighting burnout questions of accountability, Penning hopes 35 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: on one single leader pastor in present and only remembering 36 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: the good things that leader did and not the problematic 37 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: aspects and how that hinders social justice movements. And she 38 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: knows what she's talking about. She wrote, quote, since thirteen, 39 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: I have steered the growth and development of by p. 40 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: One hundred, which is the Black Youth Project one hundred 41 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: and one of the most prolific and integral black liberation 42 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: movement organizations of the twenty first century. Yes, Um and 43 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: I very much enjoyed this book. It's a pretty quick 44 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: quick read, but there's just so much a wealth of 45 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 1: information in there. Um. Yeah, So if you haven't read 46 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: it yet, highly highly recommend that you do. We did 47 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: want to start with some definitions before we get too 48 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: much into discussion, because just so we're all on the 49 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: same up page. So one is queer, Um Caruthers defines 50 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: it quote queer as I am defining it here, represents 51 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: a continuum of possibilities outside of what are considered to 52 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: be normal sexual or gender identities and behaviors. And she 53 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: defines the black queer feminist lens as she says, quote, 54 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: the black queer feminist lens is a political practice, practice, 55 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: and theory based in Black feminists and LGBTQ traditions and 56 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: knowledge through which people and groups see to bring their 57 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: full cells into the process of dismanting all the systems 58 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: of oppression. So this black queer feminist lens is so 59 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: important throughout the book. Um and, as frequently shortened to 60 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: b q F. But it's her approach is all about 61 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: centering that, UM, using that as not only a guidance, 62 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: but in the title like a mandate. Um, just really 63 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: using it to to inform how to organize, and just 64 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: kind of an understanding that that's what's being left out 65 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: in most movements and why it's so important today exactly. Yeah. Um, 66 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: And we also wanted to include this quote that from 67 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: the book about the unique oppression of black people. Anti 68 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: blackness is a system of beliefs and practices that attack, 69 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: eroad and limit the humanity of black people. It was 70 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: cultivated through the Transatlantics save trade and continues today in 71 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: the policies and practices of nation states, corporations, individuals, and 72 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: entire societies. Right, So we did want to talk a 73 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: little bit about themes. Um. Corrothers makes an impassion and 74 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: informed case for the power of organizing. Early on in 75 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: the book, she quotes Frederick Douglas quote power conceives nothing 76 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: without a demand, and she says, I believe that we 77 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: must go further and say that power can seves nothing 78 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: without an organized demand. Right, so let's talk about organizing. 79 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: It's pretty key in the book. Um, she writes organizing 80 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: by using the black queer feminist lens. Calls for us 81 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: to be individuals and to work collectively, with neither being 82 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: at the expense of the other. And that that's one 83 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: thing I really loved about UM her approach. And this 84 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: isn't really an autobiography. She there are some personal stories throughout, 85 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: but there it's more lessons learned and history just this 86 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: all of this history of UM, black liberation movements and 87 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: equal movements. UM. But I loved how she really emphasized 88 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: that there needs to be both sort of this individual 89 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: what do I want one? Am I fighting for? What 90 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: do I want to see? But also collectively because you 91 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: can achieve something in a vacuum like you need to 92 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: work together. UM. She also talks about activism versus community 93 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: organizing two important foundations UM, developing leaders and strategizing to 94 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:31,799 Speaker 1: take action. UM. Also note not all community organizing is radical. 95 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: Many work to keep systems of oppression in place, and 96 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: those callouts are pretty hard. Yeah, you read the book, 97 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: so asking yourself, what world do you want to build 98 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: and what do you want for future generations? Who are you? 99 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: Who are your people? What do you want? What are 100 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: we building? And are we ready to win. Yeah. Having 101 00:06:54,320 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: those answers in place, UM well really help guide you 102 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: and what you feel that you can contribute and what 103 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: you do want to see and what you're fighting for 104 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: because UM burnout is a big problem. And she discusses 105 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: the killing of black imagination along with that of imagining 106 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: what this world that you're fighting for could look like 107 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: UM and the importance of that imagination when it comes 108 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: to envisioning this world that you want to to live 109 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: in and you want future generations to live in. UM. 110 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: She also discusses the importance of transformative change as opposed 111 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: to reforms UM. So, for example, she describes a quote 112 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: from black actress I believe of black women being at 113 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: the bottom of the social ladder UM and hanging on 114 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: to that bottom rung and car others. Is a proponent 115 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: of imagining a different ladder, like instead of that, you've 116 00:07:58,280 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: got to climb this letter. Why do we have the 117 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: TI have leader at all? Let's think outside of that. 118 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: Let's get a better letter. Yeah, are no ladder? Who 119 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: knows the letters? Yeah, I'd be lovely. She also talks 120 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: about the need for accountability in organizing and UM. One 121 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: of the things that she does talk about within her 122 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: own organizations is very raw. Is the example of the 123 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: me too movement within their own organization, she writes, She 124 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: writes an amazing personal manner that it really does feel 125 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: like it hits close to home for anyone, and honestly 126 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: is true. If the truth is that there are more 127 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: women that are victimized than not, then we must also 128 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: know the perpetrators of these incidents and we have to 129 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: hold that person or even just that accountable about what 130 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: it is and what it seems. And and if we 131 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: truly are saying believe women UM and believe victims, then 132 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 1: how do we actually do that in regards to people 133 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: we know that people we respect it and worked with 134 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: UM and just realizing at the same time that these 135 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: truths can be devastating. And I found her relaying of 136 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: incidents with that happening with her leadership in her own 137 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: program was really beautifully raw. Of course, that was it 138 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: was kind of on those levels of how do we 139 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: handle it, what does it come down to, and how 140 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: do we hold our own accountable and without completely ostracizing 141 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: someone and completely giving up on someone, but at the 142 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: same time making sure that they take responsibility in their 143 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: part to this, So it was definitely a nice insight 144 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: to see how she opened up about her own struggles 145 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: and trying to come face to face when she has 146 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: to be the one that says, what do we do, 147 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: how do we handle this, and what do we do 148 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: when it is our friend? Mm hmm, Yeah. I really 149 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: appreciated that too, and I could feel like the anxiety 150 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: in my own stomach reading that what would I do? Um? 151 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: And I've thought about it because unfortunately, as you say, 152 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: the numbers just indicate, right, I probably do know someone 153 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: who's done there's been involved in some kind of non 154 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: sensual sexual thing, and that's a scary thought of what 155 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: what you would do. But I you know, you have 156 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: to have to hold people accountable for their actions. You 157 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: have to live out what you say. And if we 158 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: truly believe that victims need to be believed, and there's 159 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: so much connotation to how do we do that and 160 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: at the same time, how do we do that as 161 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: an organization that's supposed to be a leadership organization to 162 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: impact these types of wrongs and to make change these 163 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: types of wrongs. That's a whole big nutshell that you 164 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: have to do. At the time her this organization by 165 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: p one hundred was in like the National Spotlight before 166 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: this happened, like it was a very stressful. Um oh 167 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: yeah um. So we do have other themes that we 168 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: want to touch on, but first we have a quick 169 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back, 170 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. Something else the book examines that we 171 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: wanted to discuss is gendered violence and anti blackness. So 172 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: in the book she quotes Beth E. Ritchie, who is 173 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: a scholar and anti violence activists, and Richie wrote surrounding 174 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: the violence matrix is the tangled web of structural disadvantages, 175 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: institutionalized racism, gender domination, class exportation, hetero patriarchy, and other 176 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: forms of oppression that locked the abuse of black women 177 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: in place. Responses need to be developed that take all 178 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: the forms of abuse and all of the spheres within 179 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: which injustice occurs into account. Carruthers uses the b Q 180 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: in Richie's Violence Matrix to demonstrate how all of this 181 00:11:55,559 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: violence is connected social spheres, communities, home governments, corporations, and 182 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: how the US normalize with violence against black people, women 183 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus community by limiting access to healthcare, not allowing 184 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: self determination and in who gets funding. Yeah, so really 185 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: driving the point home that all of these things are connected. Um, 186 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: you can't separate out uh sort of structural violence and 187 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: say this is the only problem, but you have to 188 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: recognize the influence they have on each other. Um. She 189 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: is also adamant about not leaving people out brothers is 190 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: of being inclusive in these movements. She writes, patriarchy and 191 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: its offspring homophobia and trans phobia have no place in 192 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: our movement. To allow these to go unchecked is counter revolutionary. 193 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: If your liberation movement as people on the sidelines are 194 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: absent altogether, then it's not really a liberatory And later 195 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: she goes on to say, I want the lie that 196 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: black people cannot be black, queer, trans and women at 197 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: the same time to die of lift death right. I mean, 198 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: she hits those points pretty quickly, pretty fastly throughout the book. Um, 199 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: and she's then studying black liberation movements. Corrothers identifies three 200 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 1: commitments movements should collectively make to regenerate. So one is 201 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: a building many strong leaders. That means knowing your self interest, 202 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: which that's just a lofty goal in this celf. That's 203 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: just like a year long meditation session um. And also 204 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: not quote passing the torch um, the need for multiple 205 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: strong leaders and room to grow instead of just pulling 206 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: at your own the ones that you know. It should 207 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: have an ability to bring in new ideas, new people. Right. 208 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: I love that. Um. It was a quote she was 209 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: quoting somebody I can't remember who, um, but about passing 210 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: the torch, and he said there is no torch to pass. Um. Like, 211 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: if you're just waiting around for somebody to say yeah, yeah, 212 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: then you're not going to get much done. Um. The 213 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: importance of creating spaces for healing. She it's in the 214 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: words of car Page from the Kindred Healing Justice collective. 215 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: Healing Justice identifies how we can holistically respond to and 216 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: intervene on generational trauma and violence and to bring collective 217 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 1: practices that can impact and transform the consequences of oppression 218 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: on our bodies, hearts, and minds. Yeah. She also speaks 219 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: about how the term self care needs to be rephrased, 220 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: and it kind of hit me because of what we 221 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: actually need is the care of others to help us 222 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: and to help each other. And it can't just be 223 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: done by ourselves, but by your trusted collective. And I 224 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: know it's such a small bit of the book, but 225 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't hit me pretty quickly. And they've obviously hit 226 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: her too, because she kind of sat there as she 227 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: was speaking with a mentor and they said that they 228 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: were She's just like, wait, oh, wait what, Yeah, I 229 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: guess that's true that if it's a movement, if we're 230 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: part of a movement, if this is a collective, we 231 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: need those that we trust to help us in our 232 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: care of ourselves as well. Yeah, And that that part 233 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: um of the book really personated with me, you just 234 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: because I, um, she talks a lot about how this 235 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: work can be almost always is very traumatizing, and when 236 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: you're in it all the time, just the physical toll, 237 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: not only mentally and emotionally, but the physical toll it 238 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: can take. Um. And then as you say, we say 239 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: this in so many episodes that I don't think it 240 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: was this hoe, but in a recent one, Um, that 241 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: can take you out of the game in which you're 242 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: not helping anybody. But it's it can be so hard 243 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: to tell yourself when there's so many things, so many 244 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: injustices and wrongs to be corrected, there's this goal, Well 245 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: I have to keep going. I have to keep going, 246 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: almost like I don't. I don't have time. It's not 247 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: worth stopping. But you do need to take those moments 248 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: and and have people in your community kind of share 249 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: that with you and help you so that you can regenerate, 250 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: which is what this whole is all a part of, 251 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: so that bits than they don't die out or people 252 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: just keep crying out of them, right. And I did 253 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: love also she did talk about because it was so me. 254 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: It's it is so me. It's especially being new to 255 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: actually being a voice as opposed to being behind the scene, 256 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: about being silenced and being so traumatized that you are 257 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: silence that you do the bare minimum because you are 258 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: petrified or just triggered so hard, like you're emotionally physically 259 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: not able to put into words what needs to be done, 260 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: so therefore you just sit silently and waiting, which is 261 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: more harmful as well, which is like a double wear me. 262 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: And she talks about that so loudly, and about what 263 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: that meant that she was saying that she would make 264 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: a point but not make a point, that she would 265 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: share something but not go to the depths of it 266 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: because she couldn't put into words, the trauma and the pain, 267 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: because she was continuing to suffer from the trauma and 268 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: the pain, whether it was from the past experiences or 269 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: just being revictimized to that moment and being triggered in 270 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: those moments from your past trauma. And I was like, oh, damn, girl, 271 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: you just got me. You just got through real hard 272 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: because I to me, one of the hardest things as 273 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: an ally is to know when to speak and to 274 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: know when not to speak. And because of the trauma 275 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: that I've and both of us have gone through as 276 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: children or as uh later on in our adolescens and 277 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: being silenced so hard through whether it was through violence, 278 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: whether it was through abuse um or whether it was 279 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: just pure neglect in general, that it kind of sits 280 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: on you in a way in the level that you 281 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: that emotions to try to bring that courage up to 282 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: stand up for something that you know it is important, 283 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: and it is a heavy, heavy issue. It's stunting. It 284 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: literally puts you in a place that you cannot grow, 285 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: and not only that that you're frozen to try to 286 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: put any action. So she talked about that and and 287 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: going beyond that, but it was, uh, it was too 288 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: close to home for that one. Yeah, yeah, and that's 289 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: that's a good segue into UM. So that was one 290 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: of her three commitments that she thinks movement should collectively 291 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: make to regenerate. The second one is adopting healing justice 292 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: as a core organizing value and practice. And then uh, 293 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: the third one is combating liberalism with principled struggle. Um. 294 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: She compares social movements to the human body to two cells, 295 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: like human beings being cells. Um. Again, this one was 296 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: challenging for me because she isn't talking about the damage 297 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: of white liberalism, although she does include it, but liberalism 298 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: as a whole and how it has been bogged down 299 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: by good intentions and honestly mixed with, if not grounded 300 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: with h the idea of capitalism and the growth of 301 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: capitalism and the change of a movement that is too 302 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: easy to compromise. And I guess honestly we can say 303 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: this is where we are in our presidential election. This 304 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: is exactly where we have come into this moment of liberalism. 305 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: To me, at one point in time was about freedom 306 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: and rights and justice. But as we talk about what 307 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: is happening, liberalism is starting to become more of white 308 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: speak for compromise and don't change too much. But I 309 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: want to be better human than that person, right, you know. 310 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: And Jen I was like, uh uh, I'm not sure 311 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: I can quite I'm not exactly sure if I can 312 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: swallow all of this, but I hear you in Dawn 313 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: that's a lot. Yeah. Well, she she definitely goes into 314 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: into that, and that's one of the things I really 315 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: appreciated about her writing as well. As she's um very 316 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: she doesn't romanticize things. So she talked about the Obama era, 317 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: like the good things, but also all these bad things. 318 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: And that's why she stands on is that you cannot, 319 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: as we said at the beginning of her her whole 320 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: thing was, you cannot sit here and pretend everything was 321 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: great when it wasn't. Yeah, and you have to acknowledge 322 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: the faults in order to progress and to make change. Yeah, 323 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: And that is she makes that point throughout and I 324 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: really really appreciated it because it's true if you're like 325 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: ignoring all these other issues that are happening, if you're 326 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: not using this um black queer feminist lens and are 327 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: okay with these injustices, are they're just not in your 328 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: You're not worried about them, then, yeah, things aren't going 329 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: to change and the system will continue on. So I 330 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: really appreciated how she did that, and she did bring 331 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: up with the liberalism and white liberalism, how it is 332 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: so often um black women working to get Democrats elected 333 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: or that has been the case for a long time, 334 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: and then not getting anything that they asked for, being 335 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: largely ignored. Yeah. Yeah. Another key aspect of the book 336 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 1: and of organizing is understanding history and context, and in 337 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: this sense, the history of black people and radical movements. 338 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: So Carruthers focuses in on a couple of things, but 339 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: one of them is the history of modern day Haiti, 340 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: which was previously the militarized colony of San Domingo, which 341 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: became the Western Hemisphere's first independent black nation. She uses 342 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: Ella Baker's understanding of radicalism here quote. In order for us, 343 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: as poor and oppressed people to become part of a 344 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: society that is meaningful, the system under which we now 345 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: exist has to be radically changed. This means that we 346 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: are going to have to learn to think in radical terms. 347 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: I use the term radical in its original meaning getting 348 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: down to you and understanding the root cause. It means 349 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: facing a system that does not lend itself to your needs, 350 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: and devising means by which you change that system. So 351 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: before the eight o four Haitian Revolution, enslaved Africans died 352 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: from overworking or violence. Within ten years on average, over 353 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: one million Haitian freedom fighters overthrew the French colonizers and 354 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: established a black republic, the first in the Western hemisphere. 355 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: This disrupted the trade for France, the UK, and the 356 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: u S, and these countries made sure to make things 357 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: ridiculously difficult for Haiti, creating and exacerbating things like poverty 358 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: as we can see today. And she expounds on this 359 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: and hammers home the importance of telling the stories of 360 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: black radical traditions and recognizing contradictions to move forward, like 361 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: the historical lack of LGBTQ plus voices, the lack of 362 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: women's voices, and some of these movements um, even though 363 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: a lot of times they were the ones doing the work, 364 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: and a lot of these histories are missing from our 365 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: popular narrative, the history that we popularly tell um. She 366 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: uses the case of Mrs recy Taylor, who in was 367 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: kidnapped and raped by ten white men and boys. Investigating 368 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: this rosa Parks organized, bringing together prominent black activists and 369 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: organizations in Alabama where this occurred to create the Alabama 370 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: Committee for Equal Justice for Mrs rec Taylor. The Chica 371 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: Go Defender labeled this campaign as the strongest effort for 372 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: equality in a decade led black black women. This campaign 373 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: drew level support and coalitions previously unseen or at least 374 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: around that time, very very rare to see something like 375 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: that for combating the sexual violence of black women and 376 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: girls face and it became key in the fight for 377 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: black liberation taking place, but is largely not told, is 378 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: largely forgotten, which is sad. And another example she gives 379 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: is Bayard Rustin, an openly gay black man being pushed 380 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: aside for quote more palatable black leaders, or the stories 381 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: of Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera that we touched 382 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: on in our Protest and Organizing episodes. Yeah, and she 383 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: she makes the point that there's so much power and 384 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: seeing yourself reflected um in people like this in the 385 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: liberation movement, the value of it when it comes to 386 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: dismantling homophobia and transphobia in particular, but just being able 387 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: to to see these people making these changes, being fighting 388 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: this fight and being powerful in it and then thinking, 389 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, we always say if you can see what, 390 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: you can be it. It's just I don't know if 391 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: people I think people often forget that we mean that 392 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: outside of representation and entertainment, right, I think it's changed 393 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: as the way at least, like if you don't see it, 394 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: become it. Yeah, I know, that's become the new kind 395 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: of power thing is, Oh, we don't have that, let 396 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: me try this, right, And I love that. I love yeah, 397 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: And I mean it definitely is changing now when we 398 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: look at who is leading a lot of these social 399 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: movements are and and like again what they were before this, Um, 400 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: we just weren't seeing them or hearing about them as 401 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: much that you have to go through these depths of 402 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: crisis in order to be willing to see who actually 403 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: have been trying to push it forward. We've just been 404 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: in a system where it is not advantageous for us 405 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: to know of them. Yeah. Yeah, And she makes the 406 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: point like you have this big Hollywood movie with Sean Penn, 407 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 1: like multimillion dollar for Milk, but you don't have like 408 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: anything for Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera. What if 409 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: we did like the same funding, not just uh like 410 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: on the same level. Right. Yeah, yes, so we do 411 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: have a little bit more for your listeners. But first 412 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: we're going to pause for one more group break for 413 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsoring. 414 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: We just wanted to touch on a few points UM 415 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: that maybe particularly hit home or resonated with us. And UM, 416 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: one for me was I really appreciated her honesty in 417 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: terms of feeling doubt or that she wasn't sure what 418 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: to do at times, UM and making mistakes and growing 419 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: and recognizing that. UM. And she shares the story of 420 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: a conversation she had with somebody who she was working 421 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: with and he said, uh, you know, I'm not I'm 422 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: not fully woke, but I'm pretty woke or something like that. 423 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: He says, uh, I'm not quite I'm not fully woke, 424 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: but I'm waking up. Yeah. But yeah, basically, being um 425 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: there you you want to have room to grow. There's 426 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: no instance where being like, oh I'm perfect right now, 427 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: I don't need anything else. That's never good. And I 428 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: feel like a lot of times, UM, we hold ourselves back, 429 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: or we hold ourselves too unachievable standards that do prevent 430 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: us from being as effective as we can be when 431 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: it comes to fighting for change. And I know we've 432 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: talked about that in specific before when it comes to 433 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 1: feminism and how for a long time I felt like, well, 434 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 1: here all these examples I would have like examples, Well 435 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: I'm not a good feminist because of this and this, 436 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: So how can I speak about it? Um? And it 437 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: held me back and it kept me quiet, and that's 438 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: the opposite of what we want and need right now. 439 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: And when I when I do think on it, especially 440 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: as I've been on this show, there are things I 441 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: look back that I've said or done, or are times 442 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: that I've really failed that I wish so desperately I 443 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: could change. And it did keep me quiet, and it 444 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: did keep me afraid for a long time. UM, But 445 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: I learned from those things. Like, as painful as it 446 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: still is, I'm not gonna lie. Some of this is 447 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: still painful. I did. I learned from it. And you 448 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: can't let that stand in the way of doing something right. Well, 449 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: like we were talking about just being silenced and being 450 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: so traumatized that we are silence, and she did talk 451 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: about also about um not just canceling people without actually 452 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: teaching people, and that's not the way to go either. UM. 453 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: And we've talked about this before, and we've talked about 454 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: cancel culture before, and I know that's a big subject 455 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: right now with the Harper's article, we're not we're not 456 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: going to talk about but in the fact that there's nothing, 457 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: nothing happens. No change happens just by saying you're wrong 458 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: and dismissing them. But change happens when you can teach 459 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: and and and show them what is the better or 460 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: why is wrong or what's happening. Um. Of course, the 461 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: conversation would also be laid at the fact that we 462 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: put that on most of the times, the marginalized community. 463 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: We put that on people's shoulders who should not have 464 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: to be responsible to be the burden to teach us 465 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: or teach others. UM. On all of this, But yeah, 466 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: I think it was she was gonna bringing up so 467 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: many good points, all like large and small, that I 468 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: was just like, Okay, how do I grasp all these? 469 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: And she did talk about education, um, and the work 470 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: never being done and that's a part of our responsibility 471 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: as well. But she she also did talk about that 472 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: anti blackness is adaptable in the face of resistance to 473 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: oppression UM. And I found that really like, oh, that's 474 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: that's true. It is UM. And whether it's adaptable for 475 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: people to say, but I'm not as racist as this, 476 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: or I'm not as racist as that, and that's still 477 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: anti blackness when you say in terms of these levels um. 478 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: And she talks about this also as an educational access 479 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: being privileged UM. And again I think that's kind of 480 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: goes without saying which is part of the problem we 481 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: see all the times who has afforded the better education 482 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: and why and why is it so limited and why 483 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: is it so um segregated for making sure those who 484 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: are already in the good spot to be elevated would 485 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: continue to be elevated as not given to the opportunities 486 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: for those who may have never had that same opportunities. 487 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: And I thought that was a really good conversation about 488 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: that as well, about growing and how not only do 489 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: we need to look at those as problematic, but we 490 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: also need to be willing to share that wealth of 491 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: knowledge as well. Oh yeah, yeah, I love that too, 492 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: And I think that's something super that's so important that 493 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: we do share. I mean, exactly what she did, she 494 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 1: didn't book form, but we share our knowledge of how 495 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: how do we make these things work? Or um, what 496 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: are lessons? And I've learned through my experience that I 497 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: can share to someone who is a younger person or 498 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: looking to lead or both of those things. Um, So 499 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: that's not as intimidating, and you can just be open 500 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: with your experiences and it it just it's like the 501 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: opposite of gate keeping. You know, you're like opening the gates. Yes, 502 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: we need to come up with a term for this. 503 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: I'm sure, ye, yes, Well it'll come to us later later. 504 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: How simple it was, Um just the welcoming committee, the 505 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: banned welcoming committee. It's being transparent and I mean she's 506 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: very open about kind of radical honesty, right why is 507 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: unapologetic And I love that everything about this is That's 508 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: why I think is an easy read, but a hard 509 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: read because everything matters, all of those conversations like yes okay, 510 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: oh okay, I don't know if I oh okay. Everything 511 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: in all of that is how she kind of just 512 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: make sure that you're aware that she's seeing these problems. 513 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: She's had time to sit down and have conversations with 514 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: people and seeing in the system and see why it 515 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: doesn't work, and this is why this has to be 516 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: talked about, and it's all important and I don't have 517 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: time to be just cute and give you acute see 518 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: analyzation of what might be wrong. It's literally here it is. 519 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm not going to apologize for how honest it is 520 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: and how organized it is. Like she is absolutely there 521 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: with a plan as a plan mhm, as a guide. Yeah, 522 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: oh yeah. And one of the things she touched on 523 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: that I really liked, um, is the importance of a 524 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: multi pronct approach, that there's not just one way to 525 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: be an activist or to organize, that we do need 526 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: all of these different ways working in tandem, working together. Um. 527 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: And you can tell like she's seen some of this 528 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: in fighting of people kind of judging others for this 529 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: is the way to do it and no other way. Yeah. Um, 530 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: but again that's keeping people out. You don't want to 531 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: keep people out who are in this fight, right, And yeah, 532 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: she definitely does an amazing job highlighting black queer women 533 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: who organized in history and also just acknowledging what they 534 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: had to do in order to dismantle so much of 535 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: what is happening today. So she does an amazing job 536 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: and making sure she she highlights black queer women who 537 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: have organized in history and acknowledging that in order to 538 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: dismantle so much of what is happening is to dismantle 539 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: sexism and racism, and that one without the other is 540 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: not fruitful. She does an amazing job and making sure 541 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: we have a conversation about why intersectionality is so important 542 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: and what that truly truly means um which again she 543 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: talks about UH women in history, queer women of history, 544 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: queer identifying gender nonconforming UH communities who would come together 545 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: and or maybe on their own to try to dismantle 546 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: the entirety of what is the problem, and it's not 547 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: one without the other, and talking about why these people 548 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: are so important and why it's been failing because oftentimes 549 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: one ignores the other and you can't do that, whether 550 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: it's the suffragette movement with the white women saying you know, 551 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 1: it's all about us, or versus some of the even 552 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: civil rights movement which talks about only black men and 553 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: acknowledging only black men. UM. So, I think that's kind 554 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: of conversation that has to be the bigger point is 555 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: we have to dismantle both in order to see any 556 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: type of reform. Yeah, um yeah, and able is um 557 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: as well. So many, so many things about being intersectional 558 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: that we do have to keep in mind and they 559 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: are all connected. Uh and yeah, I guess in conclusion, 560 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: this very timely, very much needed, uh. Centering black queer 561 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: women who have been doing the work and getting things 562 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: done and what we can learn from them throughout history 563 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: and right now without forgetting or racing them are being 564 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: like a white lady showing after your first protests and like, ah, 565 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: I know what to do. Listen to me, no no um, 566 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: sharing knowledge about what has worked for her and what 567 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: hasn't um, lessons she's learned how to move forward. It 568 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: really is a great primer on organizing and how we 569 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: can be more efficient as we move forward. And also 570 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: acknowledging that we have to allow the black queer women 571 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: to lead or those identifying as women to be the 572 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: leader in movements like this and why that's important and 573 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: not trying to overtake for our own purposes. Yes, yes, yes, 574 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: UM so definitely definitely recommends. Um. We uh love getting 575 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: these recommendations from you, because I know some of your 576 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: listeners wrote in about this one. Please keep sending those. 577 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: We've got to choose our next book, and we want 578 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: your help to do it. Are mel Is Stuff Media, 579 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can also 580 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You 581 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always 582 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: to our super producer Andrew Howard, Thank you, and thanks 583 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You the 584 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: protection of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 585 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 586 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.