1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 2: We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean we don't have 5 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: a great show for you Today. Director Matt Tiradaur examines 6 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: how we see Gourvidal through today's political lens. But first 7 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 2: we'll talk to author Broadclass about how we fortify ourselves 8 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 2: for Trump two point zero. 9 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics. 10 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 3: Brian, Yeah, thanks for having me back. 11 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: I feel like it's one of those moments that you 12 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: have written about so much. 13 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 4: Explain to us. 14 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: There's so many headwinds and tailwinds and so many unknowns. 15 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 4: Explain to us where we are. 16 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think there's sort of a couple 17 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 3: parallel stories happening, and the ones that I'm paying the 18 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 3: most attention to first is the sort of absolute meltdown 19 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 3: of norms and guardrails where stories that used to be 20 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 3: five alarm fires in twenty sixteen are now just simply 21 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 3: shrugged off before the day is even halfway done, right, 22 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 3: I mean, there's so many crazy appointees who would have 23 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: instantly been done out of arrival in early twenty seventeen 24 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 3: that now are likely to be confirmed. And I think that, 25 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 3: along with the politicization of rule of law, is what 26 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 3: people like me had been warning about would happen if 27 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 3: Trump returned to the White House, and I think we're 28 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,639 Speaker 3: on the sort of precipice of that happening. The second 29 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 3: story that I'm looking at is how the Democrats are 30 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 3: responding to their loss and the sort of ways in 31 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 3: which the party is trying to think about not just 32 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 3: how to reposition itself, but how to end up being 33 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 3: an effective tool at blocking the worst machinations of the 34 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 3: Trump machine. And I think that's the sort of calm 35 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 3: before the storm as we all get ready for January twentieth. 36 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because last time there was a 37 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: feeling in the mainstream media that Trump was a sort 38 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: of five al on fire. But in the end Democrats 39 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: were able to block a lot of Trump's more heinous instincts, 40 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: so you know, he didn't end up deporting as many 41 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: people as Obama did. I mean, certainly there was a 42 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: terrible payandemic and a million people died, and they did, 43 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: in fact have refrigerated trucks in front of hospitals, but 44 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: some of his worst instincts, he was not able to 45 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: engage in. It feels like that's not going to happen 46 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: this time. 47 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 5: Yeah. 48 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 3: So I think there's two ways that responded that. The 49 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 3: first is that I separate out of my mind the 50 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 3: worst of Trump's behavior and the threat he poses to 51 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: the country into two camps. One of them is policy 52 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: that's reversible. Right, So, this is the kind of stuff 53 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 3: where you pass legislation and then if the Democrats win 54 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 3: in a couple of years, they could undo it. Right now, 55 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 3: that stuff is very bad, potentially, like a lot of 56 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 3: the policies he's proposing are awful, but it is reversible. 57 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 3: The stuff that's not reversible is the destruction of democracy 58 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 3: and the erosion of democratic institutions and norms, which can 59 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: take literally generations. 60 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 5: To rebuild, if at all. 61 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 3: And so I think the thing that the mainstream media's characterization, 62 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 3: as you put it before, of the sort of first 63 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 3: Trump presidency as not as bad is that, yes, some 64 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 3: of the policy stuff was blocked, but the erosion of 65 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 3: americans civic life, the erosion of democratic norms, it's so 66 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 3: clear that that has happened for precisely the reasons I'm 67 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 3: talking about where we're now thinking about putting, you know, 68 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 3: a person in charge of health who's an anti vaccine, 69 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 3: person who beheaded a whale. I mean, you have aspects 70 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 3: where you have sexual offenders up and down the list 71 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 3: of nominees, and that's viewed as something that's not just 72 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 3: acceptable but actually being cheerleaded by a lot of the 73 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 3: Republicans in power. And the sort of just normalization of 74 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 3: attacks on the press and talking about shutting down news organizations, 75 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: the politicization of rule of law, etc. So what I 76 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 3: worry about is that the second term is going to 77 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 3: have both of those things. It's going to have a 78 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: lot more terrible policy and a lot worse violations of 79 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 3: democratic norms and attacks on institutions. So you know, I 80 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 3: think that there is a way in which Democrats can 81 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 3: try to block some of this stuff because of the 82 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 3: really narrow majority the Republicans have in the House, for example, 83 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: But you know, they're prepared this time. The agenda is 84 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 3: much more set, and I think I think that Trump 85 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 3: also is not going to be as hesitant with his 86 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 3: instincts in power, because I think he thinks that his 87 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 3: first term was was sort of hampered by the fact 88 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 3: that he didn't go far enough. 89 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: So what do you say to people who say, and 90 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: I am one of these people, and I think I'm 91 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: probably wrong because I've decided that optimism has been my 92 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: achilles heel when it comes to political prognosticating. I mean, 93 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: not prognosticating, but because we don't want to prognosticate here. 94 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: But what do you think about the idea that somehow 95 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: public markets will provide some kind of check on Trump? 96 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 3: Well, I think that the problem with that is that 97 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 3: there's a lot of authoritarian regimes that make a lot 98 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 3: of money. What we're talking about, and this is where 99 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 3: I think it's important to sort of highlight what people 100 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 3: like me are talking about when they say that a 101 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: country is going to become, you know, semi authoritarian or 102 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 3: lose its democratic institutions. I'm not envisioning, you know, a 103 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 3: situation like a lot of people picture where you have, 104 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: you know, martial law and tanks rumbling through the streets 105 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: and all this type of stuff. When I went to 106 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 3: when I've gone to authoritarian regimes and lived in regimes 107 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 3: to study them, what you realize that life sort of 108 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 3: goes on. It's just that people don't have a meaningful say, 109 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 3: in politics anymore. Right, So what's the big difference is 110 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 3: the reversibility and markets are able to adapt to this 111 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 3: as long as they have some level of predictability, so 112 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 3: you have you know, obviously it's terrible, right, I'm not 113 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 3: trying to sugarcuat authoritarians. It's a terrible, terrible system that 114 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 3: stifle's freedom of expression, crushes rights, is really bad for 115 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 3: the economy over the long term, is terrible for innovation, 116 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 3: and is awful for freedom. But at the same time, like, 117 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: there are a lot of companies that I think would 118 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: adapt to a semi authoritarian regime in which you know, 119 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 3: you can't criticize the presidents as openly, or judges are 120 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 3: simply overtly partisan and going after political enemies. I think 121 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 3: there's a lot of companies that would still make money 122 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 3: in that situation. And so while I think that your 123 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 3: rights in terms of things like there might be pushback 124 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: on you know, millions of people getting deported if it 125 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: was going to hurt GDP and hurt the labor force 126 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: and so on, that's slightly different from you know, how 127 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: much is Wall Street going to react if you have 128 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 3: judges and henchman from the FBI who are going after 129 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 3: Liz Cheney, and I suspect the answer is probably not 130 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: that much, which is the sort of dark side of 131 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 3: how capitalism and authoritarianism can sometimes work together. 132 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: I'm more thinking about, Like, again, the Liz Cheney stuff 133 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: is for sure coming down the pike. 134 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 4: That seems inevitable. The thing that gives me pause. 135 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: Here is the idea that actually America has done this. 136 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I am a person whose grandfather 137 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: was jailed by a Republican president for his political beliefs, 138 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: so you know, I wasn't born yet because I'm only 139 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: thirty six. But the idea that America is a benevolent force. 140 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: First of all, if you live in the Middle East, 141 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: that's never been true. But even like, the idea that 142 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: America's a benevolent force to Americans is a pretty new ideology, 143 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: you know. 144 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 4: I think it's a very worrying development. 145 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: It also strikes me that, I mean, you even see 146 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: in this admin, in this coming admen, that they are 147 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: going to go for laws that are still in the books, 148 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: right like Jim Crow era laws, Victorian era laws. This 149 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: is the America we know. Not to be too Synegalue. 150 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 3: I think there is a truth to that, which is 151 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 3: that there's a way in which the past is romanticized. Right, 152 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: So like when we talk about like the sort of 153 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 3: America of the past, we tend to think about many 154 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 3: of the good bits. We talk about d Day, but 155 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 3: we don't talk about Jim Crow, or we talk about 156 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 3: you know, Abraham Lincoln. But you know, there's a lot 157 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 3: of stuff in the aftermath of the Civil War that 158 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 3: was disastrously terrible for a significant part of the country, 159 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: particularly minorities. And so I think this is the kind 160 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: of stuff where, yes, there is a romanticization of the past. 161 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: What I will say though, is that much of American 162 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 3: institutions in the modern era have been broadly speaking democratic, 163 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 3: And what we talk about when we study, you know, 164 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 3: the breakdown of democracy and so on, is really about 165 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: institutions which base means are you able to have fair 166 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: rules in politics such that if a different party comes 167 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 3: to power, can they undo what has been done before? 168 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 3: And I think that's the stuff that's really scary. That's 169 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 3: the stuff that you see in Hungary and Poland and 170 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 3: the Philippines and Russia over time and so on, where 171 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: it's like, at some point it becomes what is deemed 172 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: as you know, competitive authoritarianism, where there's sort of an 173 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 3: aspect of competition where parties do compete, but basically the 174 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 3: field is not level. 175 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 5: In other words, it's a rigged game. 176 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: Which is what's happening right now in North Carolina. Right 177 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: North Carolina, the governor is about to take over. It's 178 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: another democratic governor. The state House is freaking out, and 179 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: so they're trying to pass non democratic norms. I just 180 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: wonder how much this was cooking under the scenes before Trump. 181 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: Isn't this in some ways like the work of John 182 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: Roberts as much as anyone. 183 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so you have to have a certain 184 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: level of permissive factors before. 185 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 5: He gets destroyed. 186 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 3: Right, So in other words, you know, Trump didn't create 187 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: the situation where US democracy was vulnerable, but he is 188 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 3: the person who's likely to burn. 189 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 4: It down exploit it. Yeah. 190 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, There's so many things that American democracy has obvious 191 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 3: need of reform. I mean, jerrymandering is a classic one. 192 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 5: You have an. 193 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 3: Aspect with the electoral college, which is unique in modern democracies, 194 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 3: where you have a person who gets fewer votes wins 195 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: the presidency. You have the Supreme Court justices in a 196 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 3: political appointment for life that doesn't exist in most other democracies. 197 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 3: You have the role of money in politics, right, which 198 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 3: is again the US is a major outlier. So all 199 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 3: of these things are areas where the US is like 200 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 3: completely different from most quote unquote normal, advanced democracies. And 201 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 3: what Trump is doing is he's exploiting this such that 202 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 3: you could have potentially minority rule for the foreseeable future, 203 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 3: where even if Republicans lose future elections, their policies might 204 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: continue because, for example, the Supreme Court knocks them down. 205 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 3: Or you could have Trump overtly committing crime and not 206 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 3: be held accountable because his Supreme Court, which he largely appointed, 207 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 3: is saying he's immune as law as an official conduct. 208 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 5: Right. 209 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 3: This is the kind of stuff where the danger zones 210 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: are created by the sort of breakdown of norms and 211 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: these sort of steady slow shifts, and then Trump is 212 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 3: the person who takes advantage of it and knocks democracy 213 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 3: down in a much bigger way in a shorter period 214 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 3: of time. So I agree with your characterization, like there's 215 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 3: a huge number of vulnerabilities, but I still think that 216 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 3: like if Hillary Clinton had won, or if Kamala Harris 217 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 3: had won, that those vulnerabilities would sort of stumble on 218 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 3: weak but not destroyed. And now there's I think there's 219 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 3: a risk of some of. 220 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 5: The institutions getting destroyed. 221 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: If you are a Democrat in the Senate right now, 222 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: what would you say they should be doing? Because I'm 223 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: seeing Klobashar do a fucking bill about the ball devil. 224 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think you know, this is the kind 225 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 3: of stuff where you need to have both moral clarity 226 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 3: that you don't get how because you lost an election 227 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 3: and you need to pick your battles. And I think 228 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 3: this is the kind of stuff where despite the fact 229 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 3: that I, like you, have been at times overly optimistic, 230 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: I still believe that there's a significant majority of Americans 231 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: who look at someone, you know, if they knew about 232 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 3: Pete Hegseth's police report or his past misconduct, that they 233 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 3: would care about that, right, And like, this is the 234 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 3: kind of stuff where you have to you have to 235 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 3: draw lines in the sand and say these people are 236 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 3: not fit for for office. It's not a question of, 237 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 3: you know, whether we agree with their policies or not. 238 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 3: It's that how can we not agree that this person 239 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 3: is not qualified? To lead the most advanced, you know, 240 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 3: fighting force the world has ever seen. And it's the 241 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 3: kind of thing where I think the Senate Democrats really 242 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 3: need to get together with one voice and not engage 243 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 3: in sort of overtures of fake by partisanship like the 244 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 3: Bald Eagle Bill, but really really be a clear and 245 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 3: sort of selective fighting force that actually goes against the 246 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 3: worst of the Trump machinations. But this does require and 247 00:11:58,600 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 3: this is something that I think needs to be different 248 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 3: from the first term. It's something I've learned personally. You 249 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 3: don't need to chase every single you know, shiny object, 250 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 3: and you know, I simultaneously think that it's important to 251 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 3: highlight a lot of the crazy behavior that Trump does 252 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: that's disqualifying. I also think that you have a case 253 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 3: where you can only get so much of your message 254 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 3: through and so the Senate Democrats really need to focus 255 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 3: on a couple things that are really really important and 256 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 3: that they're going to win on politically. 257 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. That is the flooding 258 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 4: the zone, right, They've fled the zone. 259 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: They make so much outrage that you can't keep the 260 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: outrages straight. And the reality is right now, it's his inauguration, 261 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: then it will be these cabinet hearings. Then it will 262 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: be something else, right, I mean, so here's another question, 263 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 1: and again remembering our optimism problem, you and I, there 264 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: is a CR, a continuing resolution. It is sitting on 265 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: the desk of Mike Johnson to pork Laiden bill. It 266 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: is also the only chance to keep the government funded. 267 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: It expires in March. Elon is mad about it. The 268 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: Vague is furious. Neither of those guys work in the 269 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: federal government in any capacity. But it does show that 270 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has many, many, many people who put him 271 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: in office, all of whom are going to want their goodies. 272 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think this is an issue though 273 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: where what's going to happen is what happens to most 274 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 3: populist parties who are actually given the chance to govern. 275 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 3: Is that what you say in a tweet, as Elon Musk, 276 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 3: he knows very little about how the government actually operates 277 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 3: or what you promise on a campaign is very different 278 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 3: from what actually happens when you govern. And you know, 279 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 3: I think at some point reality is going to bite 280 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 3: here when these people talk about two trillion dollars of cuts. 281 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 3: I mean, the delusional. Right, It's like simple basic math 282 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 3: that if you were going to do this, it would 283 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 3: require you to do some of the most politically unpopular 284 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: things in a century. And so maybe they do it 285 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 3: and it blows up in their face, or maybe it 286 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 3: just becomes another one of those empty promises. But I 287 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 3: think this is the kind of stuff where at some point, 288 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: you know, I am of two minds on this, because 289 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: the Democrats can only block so much. And I think 290 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 3: that if you end up having a situation where the 291 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 3: Republicans try to govern and catastrophically fail at doing so, 292 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: that over the long term, that might actually be beneficial 293 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 3: for American democracy to show people this truly does not work. 294 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 4: And that's a ten million dollar question. 295 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, And the question is how much harm is going 296 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 3: to have to happen in the meantime. Right, That's the 297 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 3: debate I think Democrats are having is that if you 298 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 3: block everything, you might muddle through and you might still 299 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 3: get blamed for everything. 300 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: You can't block everything. The good news is that's a 301 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: false choice. 302 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 5: Right. 303 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: They don't control the House, they don't control the Senate. 304 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: There is no blocking, right. I mean, that's the other 305 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: thing is like there, it's sort of just a triage situation. 306 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 4: What I'm wondering when we talk about. 307 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: Like, you know, the thing that I'm so struck by 308 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: is they want to cut the federal government but don't 309 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: exist right because Republicans want to keep these tax cuts 310 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: for billionaires. 311 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, they could just let the tax 312 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 4: cuts expire. I mean nobody is talking about that. Why 313 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 4: is nobody talking about that? 314 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: Well, this is the kind of stuff where like the 315 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 3: Democrats have a really easy and actually like good form 316 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 3: of populism that they can run on, right, that they 317 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 3: can actually highlight what exists in this moment for most 318 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 3: Americans is anger at elites and also grotesque inequality that 319 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 3: people are really fed up about, right, And so I 320 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 3: think it's kind of one of these things where you 321 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 3: have this bizarre situation where a series of ultra rich 322 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 3: people are sort of self dealing, right, whether it's through corruption, 323 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 3: funneling stuff to the Trump organization and trying to make 324 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 3: money off government, or Elon Musk trying to get you know, 325 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 3: much better advantages and also doubling his wealth after the election. 326 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 3: Apparently all this type of stuff at the same time that, 327 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 3: as you say, they're trying to cut taxes for rich people, 328 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 3: and you know, the Democrats have to focus on the 329 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 3: sort of core aspects of this that this is something 330 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 3: where you know, the idea that the Republicans are seeing 331 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 3: to be the ones burning down the system, when in 332 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 3: fact they're basically entrenching this system of inequality that's gotten 333 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 3: steadily worse since the nineteen eighties is a failure of 334 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: political messaging. And so, you know, I think that's the 335 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 3: issue where Democrats really need to dig their heels on 336 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 3: what is truly important and pick three or four messages 337 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 3: and just have the discipline to hammer them over and 338 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 3: over and over. And Trump, for all of his failings, 339 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 3: the one thing he's very good at is getting through 340 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 3: to people what he stands for. And he's always been 341 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 3: the immigration guy, and like Democrats or Republicans know that 342 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: about him, no matter all the crazy things he says. 343 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 3: And I think there's a lot of voters who don't 344 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 3: know what the Democratic Party at its core stands for 345 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 3: right now. And that's the problem. 346 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: Well, and Democrats did a very stupid thing by not 347 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: elevating AOC who is their best messenger. But instead of 348 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: putting Jerry Connolly in the leadership seventy six year old 349 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: through cancer patient Jerry Connolly, which as much as we look, 350 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: I mean, my husband had cancer. This is you know, 351 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: a real thing that people can get through. But it's 352 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: still like here we are in a desperate moment in 353 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: American life where Democrats have told us that we are 354 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: on the precipice and they're just elevating their fracts. 355 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 3: You can't really get away with as a party arguing 356 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 3: that this is an existential threat to democracy, which I 357 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 3: think it is, and then focus your time on like 358 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 3: bald eagle bills and having old guard figures that don't 359 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 3: fire anybody up run these committees. I mean, you have 360 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 3: to fight. You have to if you say that this 361 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 3: is an existential threat to democracy and then you sort 362 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 3: of don't fight. It's like, well, hold on, there's one 363 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 3: of these two things is wrong, and either your behavior 364 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 3: is wrong or your diagnosis of the problem is wrong. 365 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 3: And I the other false choice that I think is 366 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 3: being put before the discourse as it were around the Democrats' 367 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 3: response to the election is like was this bad or 368 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 3: was this not so bad? 369 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 5: Right? 370 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 3: Well, okay, it was a narrow loss in the in 371 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 3: the sort of popular vote that doesn't mean you shouldn't 372 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 3: be smart about politics right like it means it doesn't. 373 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 3: It doesn't mean change nothing. And I think what's clear 374 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 3: about the Democrats is there, Chris, I think rightly as 375 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 3: a party that mostly is governed by older people and 376 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 3: you know, doesn't have a lot of really sharp talent 377 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 3: that is, you know, super super visible on a daily basis, I. 378 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: Think that's wrong. I would say they have a lot 379 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: of talent. They're just I mean, even Hakem. 380 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 3: I said I think perceived. Though I said perceived. I 381 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 3: think there's tons of talents in the Democratic bench. 382 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 5: I'm thinking that. 383 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's right though, because I think I mean, 384 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: I think that, look, there's a there's a gerontocracy that 385 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: is desperately trying to grasp on and keep those young 386 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: people down. But fundamentally the leadership is still significantly younger. 387 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: I mean, Mike Johnson is young, but Mike Johnson is 388 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 1: It may not even be able to pass this CR 389 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: but I do agree that there is for sure. I mean, 390 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: whatever they're doing, this is not the way to do it. 391 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: I really appreciate you coming on. I hope you will 392 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: come back and we can talk about this more. 393 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, sounds great. 394 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: Hours the director of Carvil Witting is Everything and Where's 395 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: by Roy Cohne. 396 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 4: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Matt. 397 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 5: Thank you great to be here. 398 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for coming on. 399 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: I really wanted to have you on because besides your 400 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: incredible Carvel doc which everyone should watch it is really fun, 401 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: is just awesome, you have done a bunch of other 402 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: movies and also including a really brilliant Roy Cohen movie. 403 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 4: But I was hoping you would talk for twenty minutes 404 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 4: or two. But who's scanting about a person that I knew? 405 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 4: But you really knew Gorby. 406 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 5: Daal Loadly, you know, it's funny. Your mam, I know, 407 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 5: was friends of Gorbie Dolls and they were literary stars 408 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 5: at the same time, and growing up, I thought he 409 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 5: was just extraordinary and I started reading his books when 410 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 5: I was very young, and he was the type of 411 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 5: public intellectual who was always on The Big Cavage Show 412 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 5: and the Johnny Carson Show. And this was an era 413 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 5: that I really miss in American cult. Sure me too. Yeah, 414 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 5: And I encourage listeners to google Habits shows with the 415 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 5: Doll and Mailer and even Capodi and Buckley and all 416 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 5: these guys. Were always beating publicly, but the conversation compared 417 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 5: to today, was so high blinded, and I think the 418 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 5: doll was the highest minded of them all. I would 419 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 5: have been jealous of someone like you who was born 420 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 5: into having a Gorvi doll in your living room at 421 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,479 Speaker 5: a cocktail party when you were six years old. Always thought, Oh, 422 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 5: if only my parents would get Gorvy doll over here. 423 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 5: That's how strange a child I was. 424 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 4: Tell me how you met Gorbidal, Well. 425 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 5: That's what I'm getting at it, because it eventually what 426 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 5: I realized is that medium on my own power was 427 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 5: better than you know. Not to take anything away from 428 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 5: your pixy. 429 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 4: Dutch sprinkle childhood, please do. 430 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 5: The medium on my own power was even more thrilling. 431 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 5: I had been a writer for Vidanity Fair. Graydon Carter 432 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 5: tapped me at a thirdly too young an age to 433 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 5: write features for the magazine, and it was the ultimate 434 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 5: candy store of journalism at that time. And Vidal being 435 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 5: one of my cultural and literary heroes, he wasn't writing 436 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 5: for Vanity Sayer. He was writing all these for the 437 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 5: Nation and the New York Review of Books, and I 438 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 5: thought he should be in Vanity Sayre and I'd ask 439 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 5: grading part of if I could approach him, and I did. 440 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 5: He had a piece that he wanted to get published, 441 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 5: and it was on It seems prescient now, and many 442 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 5: of the teachers that he did with me, editing them 443 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 5: in vanity fairs, seemed really prescient. Now we fall on 444 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 5: the destruction of the Bill of Rights. He was really 445 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 5: on to this moment we're having in this country, a 446 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 5: generation or more ahead of when it came to pass, 447 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 5: which was that the Bill of Rights was being trashed 448 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 5: and that there was going to be an uprising of 449 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 5: populism in the country because it was becoming an oligarchy 450 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 5: and a kleptocracy. And I well, that piece was in 451 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 5: the mid nineties. But if you go back and look 452 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 5: at the collective essays of gord Udal, which there are 453 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 5: many volumes, there's one called United States, which is the 454 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 5: big kahuna that I recommend that highly. You'll see essays 455 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 5: from the seventies and eighties called the Day America ran 456 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 5: out of Gas, and even an entire volume of essays 457 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 5: called the Second American Revolution, which was mostly about or 458 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 5: predicting a moment like this, And he frequently called for 459 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 5: and I think tried to create a constitutional convention. I 460 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 5: think he was part of an organization with doctor Spock, 461 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 5: the pediatrician, not the fictional character of Star Trek, and 462 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 5: some other lefty activists to do a new constitutional convention, 463 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 5: which this is now being talked about from the populace 464 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 5: right mostly I'm hearing about it now, But Vidal was 465 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 5: onto that. But basically he was kind of holding his 466 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,959 Speaker 5: deathoscope up to the nation, the body politic, and he 467 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 5: was hearing bad things and he was warning about them constantly, 468 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 5: and that was I think one of the great contributions 469 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 5: that he made. He was a very strange blend of 470 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 5: and ROOSEVELTI in upper class liberalism with some strange of 471 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 5: conservatism and populism as well. He kind of made his 472 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 5: own brew that way. But boy did he have traction. 473 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 5: I mean, he was on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carrson. 474 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 5: He sold millions of copies of books, both historical fiction 475 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 5: and kind of experimental nonfiction. He was a household name. 476 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 5: He was incredibly glamorous. And then the last thing I'll 477 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 5: say before about it back to you is that he 478 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 5: was gay. And he was very ahead of his time 479 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 5: in being a voice for what then would have been called, 480 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 5: I think kind of creepily gay lib. It got shortened 481 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 5: to gaylib at the time, but it actually termed that 482 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 5: he didn't like gay liberation, but it was about It 483 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 5: was about human rights and equal rights, and not so 484 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 5: much gay marriage, which I don't think he would have 485 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 5: been in favor of, which is why I think he's 486 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 5: very out of fashion today, which is something I will 487 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 5: want to talk about with you because I think that's 488 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 5: really important. I think my diagnosis as to why is 489 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 5: that he was the ultimate unidentitarian. He did not really 490 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 5: think identity politics, which didn't have a name when he 491 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 5: was in his prime, was a good thing, and that 492 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 5: included being tagged as a gay writer or a gay 493 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 5: thinker just didn't appeal to him. He thought that homosexuality 494 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 5: was just a normal fact of human nature and didn't 495 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 5: need to be called out or demagogue as an identity, 496 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 5: that it was just a fact of life. He was 497 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 5: very ahead of his time with that, but he's also 498 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 5: very out of that right now. 499 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting. 500 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: I actually wanted to talk to you about how out 501 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: of fashion he is because almost all of those public 502 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: intellectual of that time are out of fashion Mailer. 503 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 4: I'm trying to remember who else we were just talking about. 504 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 5: Well, you know, Capodi wasn't really so much a public intellectual, 505 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 5: but they were all grouped together that they were literary superstars. 506 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 5: And the more public intellectual ones that got on TV 507 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 5: were Janet Lanner, who was of corresponding for The New Yorker. 508 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 5: Sometimes journalists, new journalists such as gay to Lead, Tomwold 509 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 5: were all on TV blogging their book, but they were 510 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 5: talking about ideas and talking about politics. 511 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. 512 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: But Mailer and those guys, those public intellectuals are sort 513 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: of lost to history. And if you think about I 514 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: was actually watching the Best of Enemies, there really is 515 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: a sense in which those kind of people, they're just 516 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: no longer read the same way, right. 517 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 5: Correct, It was a species. It was perfect for the 518 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 5: mid century muscular network universe that twentieth century, the late 519 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 5: twentieth century people were raised in That's the way it was. 520 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 5: That's why publishing and network television were so strong and 521 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 5: wildly profitable because the way they were organized at that time, 522 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 5: it wasn't atomized. They were programmed basically by gatekeepers and editors, 523 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 5: and their books were acquired by these publishing houses, and 524 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 5: there was then the greed upon agenda. And you can 525 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 5: argue with whether the greed upon agenda mid century United 526 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 5: States was exactly perfect, but I would argue that the 527 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 5: people that took their role seriously in that, at least 528 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 5: from my perspective, as I'm on the left side of 529 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 5: the spectrum, and there were figures on the right as 530 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 5: well who were gave up. And plenty of oxygen blamed 531 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 5: by Buckley Junior, et cetera. Not on They're Barring, which 532 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 5: took place in the pages and on the airwaves of 533 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 5: the legacy media, was just epic. It was really like 534 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 5: now it seems like Jurassic Park, but it was really 535 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 5: like the Land of the Giants. And you know the 536 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 5: last one, by the way, I want to call out 537 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 5: the title of the movie that you referenced, and the 538 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 5: Best of Enemies, which is a movie by Morgan Neville, 539 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 5: a friend of mine, which is very good and I'm 540 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 5: a talking head in it, kind of standing up for 541 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 5: Vidal and Vidalism, and I'm proud to be in that film. 542 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 5: Worth watching, and you'll see that era depicted in it. 543 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 5: But I think the last person who was of that 544 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 5: ill is Christopher Hitchin, who died more than ten years 545 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 5: ago now I think just ten years ago, and he 546 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 5: was very related to Vidal. In fact, it was Hitchin 547 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 5: who formally introduced me to Gore because Christopher and I 548 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 5: were colleague. Then he's there and Vidal had This is 549 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 5: actually a fun literary fact about a feud. Vidal had 550 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 5: kind of annoyed Hitchins, his successor, and made a big 551 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 5: deal about it, and people did things. Then he called 552 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 5: him the Dafahn and said that he would take the 553 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 5: doll's place when he passed from the stage. That was 554 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 5: Vidal talking about him. Well, that was not going to 555 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 5: work because some of them. An ego as big as 556 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 5: Gore had immortality, I think as part of his plan 557 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 5: and the idea that Christopher was out there getting more 558 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 5: attention at times than he was, and also he was, 559 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 5: you know, at least twenty years older than Christopher wasn't 560 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 5: going to sit well. Ultimately. I think those of us 561 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 5: who knew them both saw this at the slow motion 562 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 5: car accident that was unfolding our eyes. Then they they 563 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 5: had an epic falling out that took place in the 564 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 5: pages of Vanity Fair, where Hitchens wrote a takedown piece 565 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 5: of his former idol call in the headline was vidal Loco, 566 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 5: which was the play on the Vita Loca song of 567 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 5: the moment. Sort of embarrassing it now to talk about 568 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 5: that got a lot of attentions for the last gas 569 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 5: of the time when these two people would spar But 570 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 5: another point I want to raise that's absolutely baffling to me. 571 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 5: And I love Christopher, and I think Christopher the treasure, 572 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 5: but Christopher Hitchens is not out for some reason. The 573 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 5: message of Hitchens and the persona of Hitchens really clipped 574 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 5: with millennial and gen On Neilson's gen Z. And I 575 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 5: think the thing that would hurt orvide all the most 576 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 5: if you were around today is to know that someone 577 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 5: in their twenties actually knew who Christopher Hitchims was and 578 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 5: said the name Lord. He is trying to summon a 579 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 5: lightning bolt from above or below to send it back 580 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 5: to the living world, to show us how leasy is 581 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 5: about that. 582 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: Yes, and I have to say, as someone who knew 583 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: Gore not nearly as well as you, that sounds one 584 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: hundred percent right. 585 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 4: But it's also that was how my grandfather was, That 586 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 4: was my mother was. 587 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: That you know that that kind of literary shot was 588 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: such a typical outgrowth of those people's egos. 589 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, I'm having a thought based on 590 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 5: your thought right now. I think in a pre social 591 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 5: media age, it was the precursor. It was sort of 592 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 5: like the err version of picking fights on Twitter. Yeah, 593 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 5: and they just had to do it on a much 594 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 5: bigger stage because that was the stage that they had. 595 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 5: And someone's doing a PhD thesis on all of this 596 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 5: right now. 597 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 4: Oh good, excellent, It'll be eager to read it. 598 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: One of the things I'm struck by with Gore was 599 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: that he was both very, very very left wing, probably 600 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: as left wing as say come, but also very much 601 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: a product of the Washington d C. 602 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 4: He grew up in. Will you talk about that? 603 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 5: This is a deep thing here, PM Black, and has 604 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 5: to do with the entire scope of twentieth century politics. Really. 605 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 5: He was the grandson of a populist senator who was 606 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 5: one of the first senators of Oklahoma, Tomad Pryor Gore, 607 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 5: and he was very proud of this fact, and he 608 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:54,239 Speaker 5: used it to launch his pedigree in that period. He 609 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 5: was the Gorvidal you have to realize, was byronic, almost 610 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 5: like a modern Lord Byron. He was very handsome and 611 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:07,719 Speaker 5: so brilliantly spoken, made for television and radio, a literary master. 612 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 4: And it came from a grand upbringing. 613 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 5: Too grand, but relatively impoverished, which is even better, right 614 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 5: he marketed all of this. He was step in to 615 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 5: Jacqueline Kennedy o'nassis because they shared the same stepfather, who 616 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 5: was a very wealthy. 617 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 4: Man, jack Black Bouvier. 618 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 5: Right, well, no, that was Jackie's father, but the mutual 619 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 5: stepfather was you B alcin Claus, who was compared to 620 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 5: a standard oil fortune. And Jackie's mother married Aufkins laws 621 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 5: and with Janet alkin class. But the previous Missus Alcinclaus 622 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 5: was Nina or Vidal, who was Gorvidal's very beautiful mother 623 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 5: who was a DC socialite in a flapper in mid century. 624 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 5: And out of this background comes this matinee idol looking 625 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 5: World War two veteran who surprised the world with a 626 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 5: galar first novel called Willa Waugh in forty eight, I 627 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 5: believe when he's eighteen or nineteen years old, well, one 628 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 5: of the first war novels. And that's where Mailer made 629 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 5: his name. He had a war novel The Naked and 630 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 5: the Dead I believe was that one. But then something 631 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 5: very significant occurred, and this was his genius. And this 632 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 5: is why I think that's unfair that he is out 633 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 5: of fashion right now. In nineteen forty eight, I think 634 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 5: was the third book. The first one was earlier forty six, 635 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 5: and that was called The City and the Pillar. I 636 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 5: highly recommend it. It was, believe it or not, that 637 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 5: late in the game, the first novel in English to 638 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 5: have an openly gay storyline to it. So the protagonist 639 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 5: of the book is homosexual, so they would have said then. 640 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 5: And it was a bit of a romong the Clay. 641 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 5: It was sort of a bit of a biographical novel, 642 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 5: and it shocked the world. I mean, it was planted 643 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 5: like a bombshell, and Vidal became infamous as this kind 644 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 5: of out a pretty boy in nineteen forty eight and 645 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 5: was on all the bestseller lists. But it was sort 646 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 5: of prescribed as a dirty book. This is where I 647 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 5: think he and Erica Jong your mother might have had 648 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 5: some ominality in their literary relationship, because no one quite 649 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 5: knew what to do with her with fear of flying, 650 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 5: If I'm correct, it was sort of like it's bestseller, 651 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 5: done with dueled by its naughtiness, it's dirty bookness, but 652 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 5: it was also intrinsic to it, and it was also 653 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 5: regarded as a really good book too, So we'all had 654 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 5: had that happen to him some twenty five years before 655 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 5: twenty years maybe, And he becomes infamous, and this is 656 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 5: the best kind of thing if you can manage it. 657 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 5: It's very Lord Byron. Really Byron was infamous in his 658 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 5: own day. And then right at the you know, on 659 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 5: cute TV happened and he becomes a TV writer and 660 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 5: a TV personality on the talk shows of the era, 661 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 5: and he become this kind of eybrid hop literary hero 662 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 5: TV star, but also really respected intellectual who was also 663 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 5: an essayist and then later a playwright. He did it all, 664 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 5: and he was a self made person who made all 665 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 5: his fortune on his own, even though he had the pedigree. 666 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 5: He was a political candidate. He ran for Conference and Senate, 667 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 5: both unsuccessfully, with very close friends with Jfpa and part 668 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 5: of the early days of what was called Pamelot the 669 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 5: Kennedy port all seems so ridiculous now. 670 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: And. 671 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 5: Another feud with Bobby Kennedy and Jackie Kennedy took Bobby's side, 672 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 5: and he had a big falling out with that part 673 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 5: of his family, and he never let anything go to waste. 674 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 5: He publicized that and wrote about it, and then turned 675 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 5: on them violently and wrote this hilariously evil, cruel essays, 676 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 5: all the while making good points about the dynasty of 677 00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 5: the Kennedys. And these things were on the cover of 678 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 5: Escor magazine at the time, and then they were all 679 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 5: repurposed in these best selling essay collections. But why this 680 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 5: guy's out of fashion? I think it really has to 681 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 5: do with the vogue for identity politics. I think if 682 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 5: you look at the positions he took about the what 683 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 5: it meant to be an American, which was an obsession 684 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 5: of his, it was really not about identity politics. And it, 685 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 5: oftentimes the discussion of same sexuality, as he would have 686 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 5: put it, led because he was one of the few 687 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 5: people's willing to talk about it publicly, and he was 688 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 5: saying that homosexuality was negligible as a trait. It was 689 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 5: the difference he said the son. In fact, the CBS 690 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 5: special about homosexuality that was hosted by Mike Wallace and aired, 691 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 5: I believe it was called the homosexuals. I encouraged people 692 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 5: to watch it on YouTube. It's kind of creepy with 693 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 5: Mike Wallace. 694 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 4: I bet that's insane. 695 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 5: Grilling Goorvidal on beIN full lifestyle, and he does famously 696 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 5: to all that his sexuality or anyone's sexuality, and the 697 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 5: devian from the norm, which he called the heterosexual dictatorship, 698 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 5: with only the difference between blue eyes and brown eyes. 699 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 5: People didn't want to hear that. 700 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 4: It's such an interesting and important story of Gorvidal. 701 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: Hopefully he will come back into fashion at some point. 702 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Matt. 703 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 5: Thank you. 704 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 3: That's it for. 705 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: This episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, 706 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics 707 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, 708 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. 709 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.