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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha A lot from Stuff

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Speaker 1: I'll Never Told You Protection by Her Radio. And as

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Speaker 1: we're entering the new year, we are still going back

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Speaker 1: to some of our favorites, our favorite episodes of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five, and one that we really loved was this

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Speaker 1: interview that we did with Katie Mitchell, friend of the show,

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Speaker 1: about her book pros to the People, and we ended

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Speaker 1: up going to talk about it and book signing and

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Speaker 1: it was just a really beautiful thing. If you haven't

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Speaker 1: checked it out, it is just a really beautiful moving book.

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Speaker 1: It is highly highly recommend it, and this conversation was great.

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Speaker 1: It was just a fantastic conversation. So hopefully we'll get

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Speaker 1: to have her back on one day, but in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and

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Speaker 1: Samantha a ky Stuff I Never Told You A production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. And welcome back to the show, Katie Mitchell.

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Speaker 1: It's been a minute, but we are so glad to

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Speaker 1: have you back. Can you introduce yourself to our audience please.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me back. I'm Katie Mitchell

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Speaker 2: and I am the author of Prose to the People,

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Speaker 2: a celebration of black bookstores.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and last time you were on here, you were

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Speaker 1: with our good friend Eves talking about on theme and

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Speaker 1: the power of black storytelling, and you mentioned that you

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Speaker 1: were working on this book about black bookstores and were like, yes,

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Speaker 1: you must come back. You complete it, and here you are,

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Speaker 1: and it's coming out as we record this very very soon.

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Speaker 1: First of all, congrats, Yes, it is an amazing book

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Speaker 1: and we'll be talking all about it. But can you

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Speaker 1: give us the rundown of this book?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I say, pro to the people is a exploration

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Speaker 2: of black bookstores across space and time. So I had

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to travel all around the country talking to

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Speaker 2: black bookstore owners. But I also included bookstores that no

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Speaker 2: longer exist. So the book starts in eighteen thirty, which

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Speaker 2: most people don't realize that we had black bookstores in

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Speaker 2: eighteen thirty, and it goes all the way to present day.

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Speaker 2: So I hope that people will look at the book

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Speaker 2: and say, oh, hey, I want to go to this

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Speaker 2: store when I'm in a particular city. But for the

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Speaker 2: ones that are closed, I wanted people to be able

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Speaker 2: to visit them in a way too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is something that's correct me if I'm wrong,

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Speaker 1: but that it was very near and dear to your

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Speaker 1: heart and kind of your interests in what you do,

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Speaker 1: right exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, we were talking about black storytelling

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Speaker 2: last time I was on and so black bookstores, of

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Speaker 2: course like cradle all all of our stories. So I'm

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Speaker 2: really excited about pros being almost out into the world.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm a bookseller along with my mom, so

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a perfect fit to bring this

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Speaker 2: book to the people.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and there were definitely some stories that were in

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Speaker 1: there because we were all in Atlanta, and I was like, yes,

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Speaker 1: I want to go and check this out. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell us what made you decide to write this book?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was just like a deep curiosity.

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Speaker 2: I've seen how transformational black bookstores have been to myself,

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Speaker 2: and I see them as transformational as say black church

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Speaker 2: or black colleges. But I found that they were understudied institutions,

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Speaker 2: which I found ironic because they cradle all our history

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Speaker 2: and we haven't told the history of the black bookstore yet,

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Speaker 2: and so that led me to want to learn more

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Speaker 2: and to share it with others.

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Speaker 1: And it's as you said, it was quite the process.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like that you spent these two years traveling,

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Speaker 1: you talked to a wide variety of people. How was

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Speaker 1: that process for you and what are some of the

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Speaker 1: places that maybe stand out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a lot of people, owners, customers, family members,

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Speaker 2: you know. I had one instance in Atlanta where I

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Speaker 2: was just talking about the book and I was saying

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Speaker 2: that this bookstore in Harlem called Liberation Bookstore was in

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Speaker 2: the book and she was like, oh, yeah, like that's

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Speaker 2: my auntie. And I was like huh. And I was

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Speaker 2: telling her how like I couldn't get pictures for that

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Speaker 2: store because Pros is filled with pictures and a femerara,

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Speaker 2: it's very visual and designed book. And I was telling

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Speaker 2: her I was having a hard time finding pictures and

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Speaker 2: she was like, I have pictures. And I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: can you bring them like tomorrow. She's like yeah, and

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Speaker 2: she like gave me the original pictures. I was like, no,

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Speaker 2: it's okay, I'll just take a scan of it. She's like, no,

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Speaker 2: I want you to have it. I want it to

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Speaker 2: be in the book. And so it was like kind

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Speaker 2: of those like very like serendipitous encounters that made me

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Speaker 2: feel like the book was just like supposed to happen,

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Speaker 2: you know, like meeting people who are just so willing

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Speaker 2: to help with the book. But yeah, traveling across the

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Speaker 2: country and talking to people like I met so many

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Speaker 2: elders who like really told me so much about what

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Speaker 2: was going on in the sixties and you know, the seventies, eighties, nineties,

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Speaker 2: and that was really helpful too to get their perspective.

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Speaker 2: And some of them had even written about black bookstores

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Speaker 2: from like the eighties and nineties, so that was helpful

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Speaker 2: to incorporate that in the book and to be able

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Speaker 2: to share their work and my work was really fun.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was so cool. You went, you

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Speaker 1: went all over. This is amazing. Was there something that

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Speaker 1: you learned during your travels that really stuck with you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I kind of knew about

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Speaker 2: the bookstore, but it kept coming up in the reporting

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Speaker 2: was the connection to incarcerated people. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: the bookstores have a component where they're making sure that

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Speaker 2: books are getting to our incarcerated siblings, and that goes

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Speaker 2: back from the sixties or even at the beginning, because

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Speaker 2: the first black bookstore owner in the United States was abolitionists,

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Speaker 2: so he was freeing people, like freeing the bodies and

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Speaker 2: minds at the same time, right, And so I found

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Speaker 2: that black bookstore owners really tried to take care of

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Speaker 2: those who are incarcerated and people that the state attempts

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Speaker 2: to disappear from our communities. So you'll find that at

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Speaker 2: Radical Hood Library in la which is owned by the

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Speaker 2: Rapper No Name, and even the Black Book Who which

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Speaker 2: was owned by Paul Coates towannahassee Coats's dad in Baltimore.

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Speaker 2: So he had a program where he was sending books

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Speaker 2: to incarcerated Black panthers and making sure that they knew

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Speaker 2: what was going on in the outside. So and that's

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Speaker 2: something that I found really unique to black bookstores, right,

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Speaker 2: Like you don't really hear about like grocery stores or

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Speaker 2: even museums or you know, dentist offices really caring about

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Speaker 2: what's going on with folks in prison in a in

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Speaker 2: a collective way.

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Speaker 4: So that was one thing that I learned.

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Speaker 5: Wow, Like that's an incredible level of history that I

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Speaker 5: didn't even think on, And that makes so much sense

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Speaker 5: in just in general, like the tight knit community that

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Speaker 5: these bookstores have built, Like just the fact that you

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Speaker 5: in Atlanta are connecting to people in Harlem just in

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Speaker 5: conversation in a bookstore, which is amazing. And you also

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Speaker 5: earlier talked about the fact that it is an institution,

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Speaker 5: that the black bookstores are an institution in itself. So

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Speaker 5: can you kind of elaborate and define black bookstores and

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Speaker 5: can you give us a brief history and the importance

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Speaker 5: that they have left and continue to do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I defined black bookstores in prose to the people

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Speaker 2: as a bookstore that specializes in black publications. And I

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Speaker 2: make the distinction between a black bookstore and a black

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Speaker 2: owned bookstore, which a black owned bookstore could be just

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Speaker 2: a black person who owns a book store that carries

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Speaker 2: all types of books that don't specialize in black publications.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, they started, to the best of our knowledge

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Speaker 2: with David Ruggles in the eighteen thirties and abolitionists who

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Speaker 2: actually helped free Frederick Douglas. Him and his first wife

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Speaker 2: were married at his bookstore, little known fact, and I

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Speaker 2: think that set the tone for black bookstores in the

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Speaker 2: United States of being sites of and we see this

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Speaker 2: throughout history as black bookstores being at the vanguard of

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Speaker 2: social movement. So the abolitionist movement, the civil rights movement,

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Speaker 2: the Black Panther, black Power movement, black arts movement, and

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Speaker 2: now the movement for Black Lives in Harlem, Malcolm X

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Speaker 2: had his home bookstore, and like all the pictures that

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Speaker 2: you see of him out in the street in Harlem,

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Speaker 2: he's usually in front of that bookstore, you know, gathering

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Speaker 2: people and trying to you know, get people to change

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Speaker 2: their minds as he's trying to change society.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you you talk a lot about how they

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Speaker 1: serve as much more than a book store, Like they

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Speaker 1: offer these places for social ideas, but also things like yeah,

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Speaker 1: getting books two incarcerated people and just how that really

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Speaker 1: sets them apart. And on top of that, you just

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Speaker 1: you have so many amazing, amazing stories in here with

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Speaker 1: just this why range of bookstores, some that specialize in

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Speaker 1: maybe like cookbooks or children's literature or a sci fi

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Speaker 1: book vending machine. How did you choose? How did you

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Speaker 1: choose these stores?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: That was a doozy I think when I proposed the book,

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Speaker 2: I was like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't have like twenty four stores. It'll be cool.

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Speaker 2: And then of course, once you go down the rabbit

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Speaker 2: hole of actually doing the research, so many more stores

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Speaker 2: make it into the book, But I really focused on

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Speaker 2: that definition of specializing in black publications, and I think

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Speaker 2: as a journalist a lot of it is access. So

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Speaker 2: who did I have access to, who was a cooperative source,

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Speaker 2: who showed up to the interviews, things like that on

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Speaker 2: a practical level, and then yeah, like trying to make

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Speaker 2: an even distribution of regions, but then also including like

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Speaker 2: you said, those specialty store to show the different ways

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Speaker 2: that black booksellers show up and you know, showcase their

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Speaker 2: interest through their inventory. I thought would be really cool.

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Speaker 5: It's so good And when I'm reading through this, they're

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Speaker 5: like you had specialized bookstores and one it says to

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Speaker 5: the black girls, specifically to the black girls, and it

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Speaker 5: was such an amazing like ideal, Like, yes, this is

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Speaker 5: something that is set up for a welcome community where

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Speaker 5: a lot of times they may not feel like they

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Speaker 5: are welcome. Like we talk about women in stem and

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Speaker 5: all the time, and like how long it took in

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Speaker 5: general to feel like they could be a part of

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Speaker 5: that industry or that community in general. But with all

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Speaker 5: of that, some of these stories are so great and

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Speaker 5: based around black women. Can you share one with us

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Speaker 5: or something that listeners can look forward to specifically, I

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Speaker 5: kind of gave you one away.

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Speaker 2: I know, Yeah, the one you're referencing is called Adana.

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Speaker 2: It's in Bedstye in New York, and her story is

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Speaker 2: really cool. I liked it because it was eclectic. She

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Speaker 2: had her father's like old vinyls. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: could I have that? She's like, girl, no, this my

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Speaker 2: day is like stop playing. But she has like really

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Speaker 2: cool events there. They do like a lot of like

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Speaker 2: things with plants and just like very hands on like

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Speaker 2: sewing things and like crafty things, which I think, like

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Speaker 2: is really cool because like sometimes when you're like in adulthood,

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Speaker 2: you're like over the club, like let's just hang out

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Speaker 2: at the bookstore and have a good time and meet friends.

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Speaker 2: And while I was there, I could see people like

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Speaker 2: becoming friends, like sharing their birth charts and stuff.

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Speaker 4: I was like, this is so girly. But I loved

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Speaker 4: it because it's like.

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Speaker 2: That's what that's who it was meant for, and I

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Speaker 2: could see it happening in real time. Another one that

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Speaker 2: I thought was really fun was the sci fi book

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Speaker 2: vending machine, which is just such a great idea, especially

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Speaker 2: with like rent being so high and not every community has.

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Speaker 4: A brick and mortar bookstore.

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Speaker 2: But being able to be able to provide books that

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Speaker 2: are really curated and thoughtful in a small space I

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Speaker 2: think is really cool. And like they're into sci fi,

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Speaker 2: it gives a little bit of sci fi energy having

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Speaker 2: a book vending machine there too. So those are two

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Speaker 2: that I think readers will really enjoy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 5: I thought about Annie in that moment because I was like,

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Speaker 5: she would love this.

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Speaker 3: I do the sci fi.

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Speaker 5: Vending machines coming in using a machine to get to it. Anyway,

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Speaker 5: I was having a fun time reading through these. These

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Speaker 5: are such an amazing inventive like innovative ideas and distributing

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Speaker 5: books because it needs more and more of these things.

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Speaker 5: And with that, like as I'm looking through all of

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Speaker 5: the pictures, first of all, I'm like, I don't know why.

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Speaker 5: Immediately the smell of an old bookstore hit me the

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Speaker 5: minute I opened up your book, Like look through your book,

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Speaker 5: I was like, wow, I can smell it. I can

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Speaker 5: fill the arthiness when you walk into the comforting areas

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Speaker 5: with all the books surrounding you.

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Speaker 3: I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 5: It's one of my favorite things to do is to

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Speaker 5: peruse all the titles and just smell the old books.

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Speaker 5: There's something to it. And with that, I know that's

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Speaker 5: something that you've been complimented. And like this book has

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Speaker 5: already been celebrated because of these beautiful images. Can you

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Speaker 5: talk about all these pictures that you came and then

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Speaker 5: of course the ending picture like with you with all

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Speaker 5: the different people that you've met throughout your tour.

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Speaker 3: Was so cool. But anyway, can you talk about the

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Speaker 3: images in your book?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I mean when I set out to write Pros, I

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Speaker 2: wanted it to feel like a bookstore. So that's a

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Speaker 2: very high compliment you just gave me. But like when

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Speaker 2: you go into a bookstore, you don't just hear from

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Speaker 2: one person, you don't just see one thing.

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Speaker 4: So I wanted to be.

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Speaker 2: Filled with multiple voices, multiple genres, and multimedia because I

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Speaker 2: wanted people to feel like they were in a black

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Speaker 2: bookstore while reading it and to understand that comfort. So

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Speaker 2: even in the some of the bookstores that don't exist,

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Speaker 2: I'm always asking them like, what did it smell?

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Speaker 4: Like? What were y'all saying? What were y'all talking about?

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Speaker 4: Was there a fried chicken place there? Did the smell

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Speaker 4: come in?

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Speaker 2: Like I was really trying to capture what it felt

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Speaker 2: to be in those stores, and that was the goal

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Speaker 2: from the beginning. I was lucky enough to be able

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Speaker 2: to go into archives and find old pictures from the

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Speaker 2: stories that don't exist, or like I said, some people

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Speaker 2: would just offer up their pictures. There's a lot of ephemera,

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Speaker 2: so you see like the flyers and the brochures that

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Speaker 2: people were putting out for their bookstores and different events

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Speaker 2: that were going on at the time. But yeah, I

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Speaker 2: wanted it to be very interactive and something that you

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Speaker 2: can come back to multiple times and find something new

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Speaker 2: each time.

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Speaker 5: I will say also, one of the things that really

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Speaker 5: permeated throughout these pictures is just the joy. There was

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Speaker 5: so much joy in having people celebrate their own books

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Speaker 5: and the releases, or sitting with people that they love

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Speaker 5: the picture specifically, I think it's like Rosa Defie, yes,

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Speaker 5: and like all the people that came through her path

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Speaker 5: and like her smile. There was so much joy in

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Speaker 5: these images, and you did such a fantastic job and

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Speaker 5: relaying their stories, and I know you had like interviewed

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Speaker 5: a lot of them. Was that something important that you

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Speaker 5: wanted to show in showcase.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to capture everyone's personality and I think

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Speaker 2: oftentimes those black stories sometimes we only get shined when

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Speaker 2: something's like very terrible is going on. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: this isn't that, Like this is a celebration, and you know,

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Speaker 2: being in the community, I understand that, like, guess, bad

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Speaker 2: things do happen, but like we're not always like in turmoil.

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Speaker 2: We do have joy. We are celebrating, we're with our

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Speaker 2: friends and family, you know, we're listening to future and

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Speaker 2: just hanging out sometimes. And that's what I wanted to

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Speaker 2: capture with those interviews.

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Speaker 3: Well done, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it definitely gives the vibe of I've stepped into

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Speaker 1: a bookstore, which is really awesome because Samantha and I

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Speaker 1: we like when we travel together, we always go to

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Speaker 1: bookstores and we go to libraries. It's just we love it.

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Speaker 1: So this is this is such a great a great concept,

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Speaker 1: and it's something Yeah, I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: don't know about. One of the things you talk about

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Speaker 1: in here, and people you interviewed talked about a lot,

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Speaker 1: is that there's a lot of discussion around knowledge being power,

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Speaker 1: the power of learning, the power of teaching that knowledge

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Speaker 1: Can you expound on that a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In the introduction, which was written by Nikki Giovanni, she says,

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Speaker 2: pro to the people reminds us that black is beautiful,

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Speaker 2: but knowledge is power, and that is a quote from

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Speaker 2: one of the pre eminent booksellers, Lewis Michau. And I

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Speaker 2: think what we're getting at is that black books, but

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Speaker 2: books in general, are very liberating. And in this country,

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Speaker 2: the project of black reading, black writing, black publishing, there's

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Speaker 2: always been tension there. It was illegal for us to

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Speaker 2: read when we were enslaved here, and now you.

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Speaker 4: See book bands.

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Speaker 2: Disproportionately affecting black books, and there's something there where they

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Speaker 2: attack the whole project of black thought. And so I

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Speaker 2: think as black people, we know the importance of books

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Speaker 2: and reading and knowledge and passing that down, and we

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Speaker 2: understand if we don't keep that tradition going, what could

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Speaker 2: happen and what those who do not want to see

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Speaker 2: us flourish would like to happen. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: a trend or a through line that you see from

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Speaker 2: the eighteen thirties with David Ruggles as the first black

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Speaker 2: bookstore owner to current day.

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Speaker 1: Yes, well, speaking of current day, this is jumping ahead

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Speaker 1: a bit in our outline of question, but the book

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Speaker 1: book does have a lot of discussion as well about

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Speaker 1: the importance of preserving history. And as you said, right

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Speaker 1: now we're seeing such an active pushback on teaching black

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Speaker 1: history and schools. We're seeing so many book bands, So

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Speaker 1: can you speak to that and why it's this preserving

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Speaker 1: of history and these the black book stores that are

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Speaker 1: doing it is so vital right now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the story of the black

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Speaker 2: book story is unfolding in past and present tense, like

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Speaker 2: with the book showing the book stories that no longer

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Speaker 2: exist in conversation with those that do. It's the same

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Speaker 2: with our history. And if you don't know what happened

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Speaker 2: before and what the state or the powers that be

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Speaker 2: did to try to stop the people that came before us,

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Speaker 2: you can think like, oh wow, this is so bad,

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Speaker 2: like no one's ever gone through this, Like what are

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Speaker 2: we going to do? But the lessons are right there,

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Speaker 2: Like book bands aren't new. Really, they're kind of tame

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Speaker 2: compared to what you know, the FBI was doing before.

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Speaker 2: There's so many instances of black bookstores being.

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Speaker 4: Firebombed and flooded.

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Speaker 2: Black booksellers have been arrested, framed, and you know there's

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Speaker 2: something too. Knowing that you as a black person reading

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Speaker 2: or selling books is so threatening and you think, what

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Speaker 2: are in these books that they don't want us to read?

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Speaker 4: And to me makes me want to read them more.

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Speaker 4: It makes me want to know more.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's been happening, and it's still happening unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: but we are our elders and our ancestors have shown

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Speaker 2: us what we need to do.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the like good news bad news situation of

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Speaker 5: like we've seen this before. It's been bad, but we

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Speaker 5: know we can do this because we have survived this

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Speaker 5: and we being so many marginalized people, but specifically of

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Speaker 5: the black community, and it's kind of and I've seen

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Speaker 5: it in the black community here in Atlanta and where

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Speaker 5: they're just like, yeah, it's been happening. Where have you been,

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Speaker 5: like to the rest of the community and be like,

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Speaker 5: we've been doing the work. Now you're just noticing it.

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Speaker 5: And it's a reminder and that both of these things

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Speaker 5: is why not only do the black community and your

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Speaker 5: book and so much more that celebrate them pushing back

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Speaker 5: And it's to that point of understanding that part of

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Speaker 5: the rebellion is celebrating and making sure that we are

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Speaker 5: still acknowledging what is happening and how that that you exist,

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Speaker 5: we as a system exist and will not be tied

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Speaker 5: down or quiet. And I love that that's what this

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Speaker 5: book seems to represent. It's such a perfect timing and

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Speaker 5: bringing this type of joy but understanding and power of learning,

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Speaker 5: and the fact that you're giving us an amazing list

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Speaker 5: because I know you talked about so many of them,

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Speaker 5: but then in the later part of the book you

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Speaker 5: give even more. You're like, oh, yeah, only about these things,

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Speaker 5: these stores, but there's so much more, and that's powerful

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Speaker 5: in itself.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think being able to have a record of what

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Speaker 2: has been done is really cool. Even some of the

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Speaker 2: bookstores that I have full profiles of have closed since

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Speaker 2: my reporting. But it's like, this is a snapshot of

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Speaker 2: what was going on during this time. This is what

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Speaker 2: we were thinking, this is what we are doing. And

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Speaker 2: then having the list in the back, I thought was

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Speaker 2: important to show the ones that are going on now,

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Speaker 2: like I called it, like more to explore, and then

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Speaker 2: the ones that have closed, the list of those to

403
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Speaker 2: say like we were here, we did this this was

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Speaker 2: the project that all of these stores and all these

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Speaker 2: people were a part of.

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Speaker 4: And the way the internet is going.

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Speaker 2: Out, how they're just a racing stuff left and right,

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Speaker 2: Like we need something printed and tangible so we can

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Speaker 2: have that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and this is such a great asset.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Well I know you've been you've been talking

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Speaker 1: about this throughout, But why do you think that it

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Speaker 1: is so important that we do keep this history? Why

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Speaker 1: is it Why are black bookstores in black libraries so important?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I mean, as I said, they hold our histories and

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Speaker 2: they deserve for their histories to be told. They've done

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Speaker 2: so much in each movement in the United States that

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Speaker 2: have involved black people, and they're still out here doing

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Speaker 2: a lot, a lot of work. Many of the booksellers

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Speaker 2: have printing presses where they're putting out information themselves. That

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Speaker 2: was something that I saw as a trend between like

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Speaker 2: the sixties and nineties that that was really important to people.

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Speaker 2: And I think that kind of is what pros is about,

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Speaker 2: like putting out your own story. I was very lucky

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Speaker 2: that people trusted me to tell this story, but I

427
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Speaker 2: do think it.

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Speaker 4: Came about because of like who I am.

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Speaker 2: I'm a black bookseller, and I'm telling the story of

430
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Speaker 2: black booksellers. And I think it's important to tell your

431
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Speaker 2: own story and tell it as authentic as possible, and

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Speaker 2: like you said, like capturing the full breath of it,

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Speaker 2: like not just the pain, but also celebrating that joy

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 5: And just because we have to ask, I think we

437
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 5: talked about this a little last time you were on

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Speaker 5: about the book writing process in general.

439
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:28,959
Speaker 3: How was that for you?

440
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 5: I know you weres a different because you actually were

441
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 5: able to be more interactive and traveling, but that could

442
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 5: also be more.

443
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 3: Stressful and try to do that I was the writing

444
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 3: process for you?

445
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I have, of course not written anything

446
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 2: like this before. It was a lot of research. I

447
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 2: think before my writing had been kind of like more

448
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: force person, and I tried to keep myself as out

449
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: of it as possible. I like peek in a little

450
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: bit at some point with booksellers that I got like

451
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: super close with, but that was different. And then also

452
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 2: I had contributors who are in the book, who wrote

453
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 2: essays and poems, and so that was a new experience

454
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: of being an editor while I'm being a writer too

455
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 2: and kind of walking them through what I know will

456
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: be the end result, because there isn't There hasn't been

457
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: a book like this before. So telling people like, yeah,

458
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: I'm doing anthology on black bookstores, and I kind of

459
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: have the vision in my head, but trying to get

460
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: them to the point where their piece will fit into

461
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: that seamlessly was a different experience. But I think it

462
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 2: worked out so well. I'm so happy with all the contributors.

463
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: They're so smart. I have such deep relationships to these bookstores.

464
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 2: We have people who are biographers of certain booksellers, people

465
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 2: who were managers past managers of the bookstores, so they

466
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 2: really have like these deep relationships, and I think it

467
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 2: shines through too.

468
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 5: No, you did an amazing job incorporating different styles into

469
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,239
Speaker 5: one book. Like you're having an interview, then you were

470
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 5: having an essay, and you were having the poetry. I

471
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 5: was like wow, And then you're doing the excerpts and

472
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 5: the pictures of like just trying to do it all,

473
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 5: fitting all that in the one book, and kudos it

474
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 5: looks amazing.

475
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm gonna be Lauren Hill, do my

476
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: do my big one on my first one and be out.

477
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: I have a feeling this is not going to be

478
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 3: the only one. This is so good.

479
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 4: That's what some people are saying. I don't know, I

480
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 4: don't know, just just.

481
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 3: Putting it out there.

482
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna you know, that's my prediction, but I'm

483
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 5: just gonna.

484
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 4: Well.

485
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 1: I also love that so much too, because it does

486
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: go back to the you know, making it feel like

487
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: you're in a bookstore. Here's all these different types of

488
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: writing you can find. Yeah, it was just great because

489
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yes, I want to go I

490
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: maybe want to go read a bunch of books, like

491
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: check out a bunch of books or something, the whole bookstore. Yes.

492
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

493
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: Even some of the contributors like they don't agree with

494
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 2: each other. And I like that too, because you go

495
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: into a bookstore, there's going to be a book that says, like,

496
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: this guy is orange, and that'skind of one. There's going

497
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 2: to be one that says the sky is blue, and

498
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 2: you get to read both and decide for yourself what

499
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 2: color is the sky. So there's different different opinions, a

500
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: diversity of thought throughout, and I think someone will find

501
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: something that really speaks to them throughout the book.

502
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: One of the like Nerdier points I latched onto because yes,

503
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: Samantha and I have gone through the book writing process.

504
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: Is that there was a discussion about kind of the

505
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: whole ecosystem of books, about like the publisher, the owner,

506
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: the libraries, the authors, and how these all these pieces

507
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: work together are don't and how people view how it

508
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: should work or how it should look versus how it does.

509
00:27:58,520 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts about that?

510
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, So a lot of the booksellers, I'd say, in

511
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: like the sixties, we're also doing publishing, and then I

512
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 2: think a little bit after that, the book signing, kind

513
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: of author celebrity of it all came together. So it's

514
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 2: interesting to see the different ways it has evolved. So

515
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 2: I'm talking to a bookseller who had a store in

516
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 2: the sixties. I was like, oh, what were your author events?

517
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: Like it's like author events, we didn't do that type

518
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: of stuff. We were selling books and publishing books. And

519
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: then I'm talking to someone in the nineties. They're like, yeah,

520
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: Terry McMillan saved our store, you know, Waiting to Excel.

521
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: We sold a million copies of that.

522
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 4: It was great.

523
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: And so it's like kind of seeing those trends and

524
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: kind of seeing things that you might take for granted, like,

525
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: oh yeah, of course these bookstores are doing author events

526
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 2: multiple times a week, but like that hasn't always been

527
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: the case. Seeing the importance people put on publishing your

528
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: own work and like having a press and being able

529
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: to say what you want to say and not having

530
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: to deal with like the big publishing houses was something

531
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: that I saw that people saw to be important. And

532
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: now you know, people are like fighting against Amazon, which

533
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: hasn't always been the case in the bookselling world, and

534
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: like now there's bookshop that's trying to you know, help

535
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: out with the indie booksellers and go against Amazon too,

536
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: So it's a lot of moving parts and they're all

537
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: working together or against each other. But yeah, we touch

538
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: on all of that in pros. But yeah, it's like

539
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: a little like insider thing. If you've been in the

540
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: book industry, you're like, oh, yeah, I know about that.

541
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 5: I love that You're gonna get the book world that

542
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 5: you never knew what existed exactly, the little beef that's

543
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 5: happening behind the scenes. You're like, well, I didn't think

544
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 5: about that. You forget about the fact that there was

545
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 5: like whole press like they were releasing their own books

546
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 5: and like the level of independent authors who will trying

547
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 5: to just get their pamphlet out there or like the

548
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 5: novella's out there to make a point. So it's really

549
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 5: interesting to think on that, especially when you go through

550
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 5: the historical context of books stores and publishing books and

551
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 5: then like fighting in civil rights eras and what that

552
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 5: looks like, and then what that looks like for today

553
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 5: in the midst of like literal attack on the black

554
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 5: community by saying that black history should not exist because

555
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 5: it makes us sad. It's just that's a whole different conversation.

556
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 5: But the importance of trying to support those businesses. And

557
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 5: I know this seems like an obvious question, but with

558
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 5: everything outside of just buying from these independent bookstores and

559
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 5: supporting these bookstores, what can we, as those that would

560
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 5: like to be seen as allies, what can we do

561
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 5: to make sure that we are supporting these businesses if

562
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 5: it's not just by visiting them.

563
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one way that I say it would

564
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,479
Speaker 2: be like the most sustainable is to make them a

565
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: part of your normal life, Like not just like, oh,

566
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: like this really popular books coming out out, buy it

567
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: from a black bookstore, which is great, But like I said,

568
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: they're doing these events every week. They have reading circles.

569
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 2: You know, they're bringing in authors, they're having writing salons,

570
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: so kind of making it a part of your life

571
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: in a way that fits naturally, so you don't feel like, oh,

572
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: I'm doing like this charitable thing, Like no, I'm getting

573
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 2: something out of it, the bookstores getting something out of it.

574
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: I'm really embedding into my community, I think is the

575
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 2: best way to do it. And even like going back

576
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: to like the book ecosystem. One thing that I thought

577
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: was interesting was even in the sixties, the big box

578
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: stores were stealing from the black bookstores. They would like

579
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: go in, write down what they had, and then there'd

580
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: be a display of flip black books there. So kind

581
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: of being cognizant of what these big box stores and

582
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: Amazon are doing, because you kind of might think like, oh,

583
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: the big guys aren't even paying attention to the little guys.

584
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: But the little guys are, you know, on the ground,

585
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: they know the community and can really curate, and then

586
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: you know, the big bohemos can just like take, take

587
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: take and scale it to a way that makes it

588
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: so that the indis can't compete.

589
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 4: So being like a little bit more.

590
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: Aware of how you're supporting people and their business practices.

591
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: Well, on top of that, is there something that, as

592
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: you know, you're closing this chapter of this book is

593
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: coming out, is there something that you're really hopeful for

594
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: in terms of black bookstores and or trends that you're

595
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: hoping will come about.

596
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I hope black bookstores. I would like

597
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: to see them on every corner. They're a lot in

598
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: the book, but when you like travel around, you know,

599
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: they're kind of few and far between, and I think

600
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: they should be there, should be more, they should be supported.

601
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: And I would love to see someone, you know, write

602
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 2: another book about black bookstores and include the ones that

603
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: weren't included, and like continue this work of celebrating the

604
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: black bookstore as an institution and you know, highlighting what

605
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: we done in the community.

606
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 4: That would be something that I think is really nice.

607
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: Yes. Absolutely. And for you yourself, do you have any projects

608
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: on the horizon that you're excited about.

609
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 4: Well, I'm about to go on tour, so that is

610
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 4: my next project.

611
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: Kicking it off in Atlanta at the Georgia Center for

612
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: the Book on the eighth, So maybe I'll see you

613
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: all there.

614
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: All right, I'm running down the eighth of April.

615
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: Eighth of April, Georgia Center for the book, seven pm. Yeah,

616
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: and I'll be in around the city. I'll be in Washington,

617
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: d C. Philadelphia, and New York. So focusing on that

618
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: and then we'll see what happens from there.

619
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: Yes, so well you might want to take a break

620
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: after that, but that sounds amazing.

621
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 4: I see a break in my future. Yes, with you.

622
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 5: Being yeah, you and your mom working like book yourself.

623
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 5: What did your mom say about this book?

624
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: I need to know.

625
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 3: Has she read it?

626
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's read it. She got to see it early.

627
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: And because like when I was writing it, I would

628
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: just like go to the library, I would like write

629
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: it longhand and like a notebook, and people were just like,

630
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: what are you doing, Like you're always not like yeah,

631
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 2: doing something like super secret. And then she saw it.

632
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: She's like, oh, this is what you've been doing. Like

633
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: this is so nice. And I don't know if y'all notice,

634
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: but like in some parts of the book, you'll see

635
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: like handwriting that's actually my mom's handwriting. So yeah, I

636
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: love her handwriting. So I was like, let me get

637
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: you to write these pull quotes and the dedication, so

638
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 2: having a little piece of her in there too. It

639
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: has been fun. But yeah, she loves it. She's so excited.

640
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: She was like, you did it. I'm so proud of you.

641
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 4: Like this is big. It's big, Katie.

642
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I'm not gonna lie. Having her being

643
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 5: a part of that book, it just makes me so

644
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 5: emotional for you that it's amazing and I love that,

645
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 5: like the bond between you and that you have that

646
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 5: in your first book as like a memento for both

647
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 5: of you.

648
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: That's beautiful.

649
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, well, thank you so much Katie for

650
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: joining us today, for coming back on. We would love

651
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: to have you anytime. Congrats again about the book. Where

652
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: can the good listeners find you?

653
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: They can find me on Instagram. I'm at good books

654
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 2: atl on Instagram. And if you want to keep up

655
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: with the book, it's prostothpeople dot com.

656
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: Yes, and it comes out April eighth, correct.

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Speaker 2: April eighth. There is a pre order incentive and you

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00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: get a cute little lapel pin that mimics the book,

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00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 2: but you got to get it in before April eighth.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I love I love a good incentive. Well, thank you,

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00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much, Katie. And listeners. Go

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00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: check out the book. It is amazing. Thank you and

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00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: if you would like to contact us you can. You

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Speaker 1: can email us at Hello, at Stuff Whenever Told You

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00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Blue Sky at

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00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or Instagram and TikTok and Stuff We

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00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: Never Told You were also on YouTube. We have tea

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00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: public store, and we have a book you can get

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00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our

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00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: super producer Christina and executive producer Maya and your contributor Joey.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You

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00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: the production of My Heart Radio. For more podcast from

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,

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00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite ship