1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Quody diamonds. But the Joseph's gotten more. There's a little 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: place down on Mobile Bay in South Alabama, within view 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: of the Gulf of Mexico, and it's a peaceful spot. 4 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: If you think about Mobile Bay, it's kind of shaped 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: like a horseshoe, and of course the opening of the 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: horseshoe opens out into the gulf. Great battles have been 7 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: fought there. As a matter of fact, that's where the 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: Admiral famously said, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, right 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: that very spot. But the bay that I'm referring to 10 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: is just to the east of where that famous battle 11 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: took place during the Civil War. And the name of 12 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: that bay is called bond Secure. It's French. The French 13 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: initially explored and settled that part of Alabama. But here's 14 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: the thing. The term bond Secure translates into English as 15 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: safe harbor. I'm going to talk about another bond securt today, 16 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: a place that you would think would offer a safe harbor, 17 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: a place of protection, even a place of peace. Nothing 18 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:42,279 Speaker 1: could be further from the truth. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 19 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: and this is body backs. I don't know about you, 20 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: brother Day, but I tell you what, there are many 21 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: times in my life when I've needed a safe harbor. 22 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: I've needed someplace I could flee to, someplace I could go, 23 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, and you look for those places throughout life 24 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: because you know when you're particularly I don't know about you, 25 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: but particularly when you're a young person and you're just 26 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: getting started and let's face it, the world it's exciting, 27 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: but it's terrifying. It's terrifying at the same time because 28 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: you know how to pay a light bill or sewage 29 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: or you know, those are minor things. Not to mention 30 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: having to make a monthly note on a house or 31 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: rent or car, all that stuff that mom and Dad 32 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: took care of for so long. He never gave it 33 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: a thought. And there were scary times early on, and 34 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: not to mention the occupation I was in. I needed 35 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: a safe harbor many times. I needed a place where 36 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: I could kind of anchor my proverbial ship, where free 37 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: of any kind of I don't know, outside fear that 38 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: might seep in. And today's today's discussion centers around some 39 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: of the most vulnerable, i'd say the most vulnerable in 40 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: our population, and that's unwed mothers and. 41 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: Goodness this is in we're talking Ireland here, where there 42 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 2: were homes that were run by nuns for unwed mothers, 43 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: single pregnant young women. And until you hear what we're 44 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: about to tell you, you think, well, that's probably a pretty 45 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 2: good organization, you know, a pretty thoughtful thing to have you. 46 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: They've got eighteen of them in Ireland that were run 47 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: between the nineteen twenties up through the early sixties. I 48 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: don't know quite how they pronounced things over there, Joe. 49 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,559 Speaker 2: I know it looks one way, but it's pronounced another. 50 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: Tall on Ireland, Okay, Galway, Galway, Yeah, County of Galway. Yeah, 51 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: it's actually in Galway's beautiful. It's on the western side 52 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: where all the rugged coast are. And that's okay, you 53 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: know there's things. Yeah, yeah, that's the little village you 54 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: know where this place was tom Yeah. 55 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: Okay, Well in this little village. In the seventies, these 56 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: guys are playing in an area and they find skeletons. 57 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: You don't normally find skeletons just you know, hanging about, 58 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 2: but they did. And they reported finding these skeletons near 59 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: a concrete slab, and they estimated there were about twenty 60 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: of them and nothing was ever really done. It's kind 61 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: of you know, Oh well, okay, thanks for telling us, guys. 62 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 2: It was a historian in twenty fourteen who had her 63 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 2: fill of following different stories along the way, and she 64 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: does some research project on these homes and the number 65 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: of children up to from birth to the age of 66 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: about three that died in this one single unwed mother 67 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: home run by nuns between the nineteen twenties and nineteen 68 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: sixty one. And she found that there were nearly eight 69 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: hundred deaths. Nearly eight hundred, actually seven hundred and ninety 70 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: six deaths took place between the twenties and nineteen sixty one. 71 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 2: That's thirty plus years that eight hundred babies died. And 72 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: so she's trying to research how would that happen, you know, 73 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: what kind of care was going on? That seems like 74 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: a high number. And lo and behold, she's trying to 75 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: research this show, and well, she could only find burial 76 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: records for one. 77 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: Wait, give me the number I've just found. 78 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: Eat that number, seven hundred and ninety six out of 79 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: seven hundred and ninety six deaths are too because they 80 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 2: registered the deaths. The deaths were not covered up you 81 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 2: got seven hundred and ninety six deaths with like how 82 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 2: they died, why they died, what it was, you know, 83 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: that kind of thing, but only one burial. Notice, where 84 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: are the graves for the seven hundred and ninety five 85 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: children that? Yeah, and she's a historian, she can't find them. 86 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,799 Speaker 2: So they start tying together one story after another, and 87 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: lo and behold, it seemed like the babies, the little 88 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 2: children up to the age of three, might never have 89 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: left the premises of the unwed mother's. 90 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: Home up to the age of what are you gonna do? 91 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: Three? 92 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: Did you say three years old? 93 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: Three years old? 94 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? That's actually so you're talking about a child. Yeah 95 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: that is ambulatory, can walk about, yep, can talk, can 96 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: feed themselves, should be at about three, getting into They're 97 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: right on the cusp of being toilet trained at that 98 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: point time. You know, some lags somewhere a head. Yeah, 99 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: so you I don't know that I have memories from 100 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: being three. I might I know four, But you're right 101 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: there on that that cusp. And the fact that you've 102 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: got babies that I think per the study, you've got 103 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: thirty three week gestational age. That's the youngest up to 104 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: three years old. And here's the thing about it is 105 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: these and they're called they're called mother and child homes. 106 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: That's the way that they were referred to. And each 107 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: one had a different name. This one was, in fact 108 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: the bond succor mother and child homes. Just just yeah, 109 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: just imagine that term. And you're you know, we've and 110 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: you particularly because this story is close to your heart 111 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: because of your own personal experiences. But you know, I 112 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: was born to a teenage mother. My parents got married, 113 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, and there were different times back then. But 114 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: you're scared and you want to be protected. These young 115 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: women have something, and very young women probably have something 116 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: that was occurring to them that had never happened before. 117 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: They don't have any frame of reference because you know, 118 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,239 Speaker 1: with if you've got a teenage mom, there's a high 119 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: probability if they're sending you to a home like this, 120 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: there's a high probability they've been rejected by their family. 121 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: So you talk about being scared the only home that 122 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: you've ever known. Now you have a life growing within you. 123 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: Oh and by the bye, your family is rejecting you, 124 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 1: we're going to send you to you know, to this 125 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: mother and child home. Sounds very Becolic, you know when 126 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: you see them, you say that, and it's run by 127 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: a particular order of nuns, and you. 128 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: Say that the country is mostly Catholic, right. 129 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's primarily a Roman Catholic country. It's the Republic 130 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: of Ireland, not norther in Ireland. They occupy the same island, 131 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: but you know Northern Ireland, you know where Belfast is 132 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: and whatnot. That's part of the that's part of the 133 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: United Kingdom. This is the Republic of Ireland and it's 134 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: stringently Roman Catholic and has been for years and years. 135 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: And so you've got these moms and this place is 136 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: open from the twenties until nineteen sixty one and then 137 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: they shut it down. Dave, it's ten years later and 138 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: they're tearing the structure down. Now. That defies everything I 139 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: can possibly imagine about a religious order, particularly one like 140 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: the Roman Catholic Church, that is so committed to life. 141 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: They purport to be at least protecting those that are 142 00:09:55,679 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: in harm's way, valuing the sanctity of life, those sort 143 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: of things. They talk about it all the time. But 144 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: yet you've got one death certificate out of almost eight 145 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: hundred bodies. Well, you've got multiple death certificates, but only 146 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: one grave rather. 147 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: Right, And that's the key, because I was kind of 148 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 2: confused on the numbers, you know, and when I saw that, 149 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, wait a minute, we're talking nearly eight 150 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: hundred children that are dead. And what prompted this, you know, investigation, 151 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: And it's because there was only one burial. And again 152 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: I want to make sure we're crystal clear on this show. 153 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 2: While the nuns running the Safe Harbor Home for unwed 154 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 2: mothers and children, they were responsible and they took care 155 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 2: of filing death certificates. That's why the when it came 156 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 2: right down to the research, they were able to find 157 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: out seven hundred and ninety six children died, but only 158 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: one was buried. 159 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: So they let me tell you about another certificate that 160 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: exists day. There is actually a burial certificate as well 161 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: that and I'm wondering if what you're referring to with 162 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: the one burial, I wonder if they had a burial 163 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: certificate because that's something that happens in the US. And 164 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: also if you have a local, if you're in if 165 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: you think about a parish, a church parish, Catholic church parish, 166 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: it encompasses a geographic zone. Okay, So those that are 167 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: part of the Catholic Church that wish to be buried 168 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: on the ground, they want to be buried in consecrated earth. 169 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: They want to be buried in the churchyard. And that's 170 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: a graveyard. That's not a cemetery. Cemetery is an open place, 171 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: is a public place. I wonder if because this thing 172 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: smacks of it smacks of deception to me, because these 173 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: children should have been well, some of them probably should 174 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: have been baptist, baptized, There should have been baptismal records, 175 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: There should have been burials within a church yard somewhere 176 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: that would have been officiated by a priest, and there's 177 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: no evidence of that. 178 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: Right. That's what's so shocking about this day historian. Her 179 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 2: name is Catherine Corliss. Now she was the one and 180 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,599 Speaker 2: again it's really interesting to note this is a historian 181 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: who was trying to match up doing research, and that's 182 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,599 Speaker 2: why they have an exact number of the death certificates 183 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: because they have that seven hundred and ninety six, but 184 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 2: there was only one burial record, and I don't know 185 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: what records they keep, but that was the kick was, 186 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 2: wait a minute, you've only got records of one of 187 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: these seven hundred ninety six deaths being buried. Where are that? 188 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: And that's a legitimate question. I mean, you've got a 189 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 2: certificate of death. There has to be some kind of 190 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: whether I mean, I don't know rules and rags on 191 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: what you do with the body in the thirties, forties 192 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: or anything else, but you know, I mean there's got 193 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: to be a record, like even today, if somebody is cremated, 194 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 2: you have a record of that. 195 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. I trace my family. I've traced my family all 196 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: the way back to Wales and back like during the 197 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: Tutor era. And my ancestors over there on both sides, 198 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: my father's side and my mother's side are both Welsh 199 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: Morgan and Edwards. And so there are burial records for 200 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: my ancestors. And that's going back to the fifteen hundreds. Wow, 201 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: that are easily tracked now you know they're in America. 202 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: We have we seem like we always have problems with 203 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: courthouses burning down, but you know, and you lose records 204 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: over here. But you know, with back then, the Church, 205 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: who has always been rather fastidious about documentation, writing things down. 206 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: You know, all you got to do is go to 207 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: Trinity College and see the Book of Calves, to see 208 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: those old manuscripts that the monks sat and toiled over 209 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: translating the Bible. All you have to do is bear 210 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: witness to this, and you're left with a huge question, 211 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: why did they dismiss the lives of these precious little babies. 212 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: So you're out and you're with Pow and you look 213 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: down in the ground and you see maybe a skeletal 214 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: remain protruding through the earth. You contact the local authorities, 215 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: They come out survey the area and they believe that 216 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: they have found twenty skeletons. Well, it's interesting because that 217 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: discovery was made in proximity to the mother and Children's 218 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: home there in tom in Galway, Ireland. My question is 219 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: why did they never move forward? Why did they never 220 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: move forward and see what else was there? Because Dave 221 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: obviously there was a whole lot more there. 222 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 2: That's why I think this was one of those open 223 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: secrets generationally where one generation knows what's going on, but 224 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: they don't tell the kids. And if you don't tell 225 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: the kids, as the other generation grows up and realizes 226 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: that they don't have to share it, I mean that 227 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: happens all the time, and when you're dealing with a 228 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: close knit community. Yeah, but they did in the seventies. 229 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: You got two guys to find it's estimated they found 230 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: twenty skeletons, Joe twenty skeletons, and according to the Irish Times, 231 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: they actually found him near a sewage tank that was 232 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: operated on the site. Now you told me, and it's 233 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: very important to note that the Safe Harbor nun Home 234 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 2: was torn down. They evacuated, they left it in nineteen 235 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: sixty one, shut it down, and then they just tore 236 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: it down gone. Don't know exact data when they did it, 237 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: but based on this story here about the guys finding skeletons, 238 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that it was already gone by then, 239 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: because according to the Irish Times, a sewage tank was 240 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: creating a problem, an old sewage tank, not a current one, 241 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: an old sewage tank that was operated on the site 242 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: in the early twentieth century, now early meaning nineteen twenties 243 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: and up. And the minutes of the town meeting Joe 244 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: actually reflect that on the board one of their board meetings, 245 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: they talked about the problems of this sewage thing overflowing, 246 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: creating problems smelling it I'm sure. Oh, so they were 247 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: really just dealing with the symptoms, well just cover it 248 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: with some more dirt or something, you know, that kind 249 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: of thing, and not addressing a skeleton issue or anything else. 250 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 2: So they know there's something over there, but hey, put 251 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: the blinders on and let's keep on trucking. So it's 252 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen. You've got the historian who is doing research 253 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: and I don't know what her genesis was. I don't 254 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 2: know if it was the nineteen seventies and finding those skeletons, 255 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: and it kind of you know, how historians think differently 256 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 2: than the rest of us, you know, and it's really cool. 257 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: I admire historians because they those who failed to remember 258 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 2: the past are doomed to repeat it. 259 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: Yep. 260 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: Historians live that, and they tell you they're so passionate because, 261 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 2: like Dave, you, if this doesn't get out, we're going 262 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 2: to do it again, you know. Anyway, And so I'm 263 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 2: thinking that something came up and she decided to look 264 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: into it, because again, these are public rerecords. You find 265 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 2: seven hundred and ninety six children died, and you've got 266 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 2: burial records for one. There's a story there, and that's 267 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 2: what was reported in The Daily Mail, the Irish Daily 268 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: Mail in twenty fourteen. Now after it was reported, the 269 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 2: historian really caught grief. It was it was pretty rough 270 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: because that was a home front web mothers run by nuns. 271 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 2: And she's been getting comments for the last eleven years. 272 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: Joe. 273 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: It wasn't just bad then, it's bad now. It was 274 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: bad this past Sunday. She's still getting emails, Miss Corlis. 275 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: Is you believe that? 276 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I can believe it. 277 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, in twenty fourteen, this story gets printed and 278 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: there is a lot of hubbub. You know, a lot 279 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: of people are washing hands and saying, hey, give me 280 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 2: away from here. But they had to find the bodies. 281 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 2: They got to find there's god to be bodies somewhere 282 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: happened to them that led them to, well, we had 283 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 2: these skeletons, and we got that sewage thing over here 284 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 2: led them to the tank and Joe. In twenty seventeen, 285 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 2: they decided to run a test on the tank, on 286 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: the sewage tank. And I don't know if that's the 287 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,479 Speaker 2: I'm kind of getting it messed up between a septic 288 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 2: tank and a sewage dump. I don't know. 289 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that these these are not like modern 290 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: sewage areas, okay, Like when you think of a septic tank. 291 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: So you have a standalone home that is off county 292 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: water and whatnot, and you have a field. You know, 293 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: they build the field in the back of the house, 294 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: they put in the tank, and the tank is there. 295 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: And this may have predated the toms in in this 296 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: particular area of Ireland, and the western port of portion 297 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: of Ireland was markedly poor, particularly you know, back in 298 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: that period of time. I mean literally when this place started, 299 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: the Irish were going through revolution, you know, during that 300 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: period of time, and they didn't they probably didn't have 301 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: what we would consider to be modern plumbing. My suspicion 302 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: is is that there is a area that was built subterranean, 303 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: and I have visions of it being kind of a 304 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: bricked area, maybe even domed, and then all of the 305 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: sewage water would run into this thing, you know, all 306 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: of the you know, solid waste and everything else that's 307 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: being produced. Maybe they were counting on it kind of 308 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: seeping down, you know, like a modern field does, you know, 309 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: where things seep down, And they didn't really think about 310 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: groundwater as much back then there. So you've got the 311 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: sewage area, and they were probably all over the place, 312 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, the thing's getting backed up 313 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: now and it's probably floating up and you see the 314 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: slot in areas that are low lying where sewage feels 315 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: again to wet the ground above and it gives off 316 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: a horrible odor, as you imagine. 317 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: And remember remember the first uh meet the Fokker's movie. Yeah, 318 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: and at the wedding, the very first one when they're 319 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: parents meet the parents, Yeah, oh yeah, and the eceptive 320 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 2: tank backed up and it flooded their yard and it 321 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: stunk because and when what does that smell? It's us? 322 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 2: What do you think? You know? Yeah, it overruns the septics, 323 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 2: over ran the septic system, and then the field lines 324 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 2: you know, got covered up, and that's what you end 325 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 2: up with. I'm on a septic system, so I know 326 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: the drill here. That's why I was really curious about this. 327 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: And what well, Yeah. 328 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: Over a period of time, though, this is going to 329 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: get layered and you're going to have, you know, kind 330 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: of the earth is going to begin to kind of 331 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: collapse in on this thing exactly. And if it is 332 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: like a brick structure that the walls have collapsed or 333 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: anything like that. Now you're getting into where the sediment 334 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: has kind of dropped down, because look, I'm not trying 335 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: to be grotesque here, but you're talking about human waste 336 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: that is commingled with human remains, and it's kind of 337 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: stacking on top of one another. So every time a 338 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: toilet would flush, then that's another layer that goes on 339 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: top of any kind of bodies that may be there. 340 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, Dave, you know, I've 341 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: worked cases where I've had moms give birth in toilet 342 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: stalls and they flush the toilet and the baby of 343 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: course backs up the toilet. Just happens in high schools. 344 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: I've had several of those over the course of my 345 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: career where I've had to go out to the high 346 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: school because baby was actually trapped in the toilet and 347 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: it wouldn't go down. And of course this young lady 348 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: that has given birth is petrified, scared and everything else, 349 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: and somebody finds her in there. Authorities come in, they 350 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: found a baby. But we're talking about kids that are 351 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: up to three years old day. We're not talking about 352 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: merely stillburse. And the youngest child is at thirty three 353 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: weeks gestation, which is a rather substantial from a developmental standpoint, 354 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: It's a rather substantial baby. By that point in, Tom. 355 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: Had one thing that we've got need to be clear 356 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 2: on is as they were the children actually had their 357 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,959 Speaker 2: death record that indicated how they died. So you had 358 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 2: mentioned something because you were explaining to me that the 359 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: difference in what we have now a septic system versus 360 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 2: what was going on then these nuns. Am I wrong 361 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: when I say the nuns got rid of the bodies 362 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 2: by putting them in the septic. There's a hole that 363 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: probably allowed access to this huge underground tank and they 364 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 2: placed these babies in that tank because you. 365 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,959 Speaker 1: Know, standing jok mode and pull in a chain right, 366 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: you know, and the baby's going because you're talking about 367 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: Dave their kids in here. And remember we started off 368 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: by talking three years old. Yeah, developmentally that's rather substantial. 369 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: You're not flushing the child three year old now all 370 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: down the toilet. And you know what this made me 371 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: think of. It made me think of Chris Watts. And 372 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: the reason is is that out there at those petroleum 373 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: tanks and that high desert area there in Colorado. You 374 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: know what he did with both those little angels. He 375 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: went to the two tanks and these things. I'll never forget. 376 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: I had this discussion on the air because I'd never 377 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: heard the term, and it's I was on the air 378 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: with a guy that was working in the petroleum industry 379 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 1: and he was going through describing what these openings are 380 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: on the top and here's an interesting term day he 381 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: referred to as thief hatches. I'd never heard that term. 382 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: It's a unique hat term, a thief hatch. And so 383 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: my thought was, I know that in the Chris Watts case, 384 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: the oldest child had her back was scratched up post 385 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: mortem because he had jammed her down through that thief 386 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: hatch and she fell into that muck in there, that 387 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: highly toxic, toxic raw petroleum muck in there. And you know, Dave, 388 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I think that the sisters 389 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: had access to probably something similar to a thief hatch, 390 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: and it had to be big enough so that it 391 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: can actually accommodate up to a three year old child 392 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: if we are to believe what they're the information that's 393 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: coming out now that sounds that sounds like the case. 394 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: And once this this can go to a really dark area. 395 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: And the reason it's dark is I I think about 396 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: I think about these children, and I wonder if these children, 397 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: first off were viable after birth where they being killed 398 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: because no one was watching. Because to the church back then, 399 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: perhaps an unwed mother giving birth to a child is 400 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: a grievous sin, and so that child which is born 401 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: is a product of that and not worthy of life. 402 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: Now I don't know that that happened. However, they would 403 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: let me give you a little bit bit more insight 404 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: into this if you had. I do know that with 405 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: these mothers that would give birth in these homes, if 406 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: they and this is the way it was termed, Dave, 407 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: if they repeat offended, they were sent to what was 408 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: referred to as the Magdalene Magnaline washer washer women. I 409 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: think it's what it was called. And essentially their punishment 410 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: for getting pregnant once again was to be sent and 411 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: come almost like indentured servants, where they're having to work 412 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: processing laundry. And the nunneries ran multiple of these places 413 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: around the country. Of these you know, the I don't know, 414 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: it's I don't know if I want to call it 415 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: a laundry mat, but it's where people would go and 416 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: have their clothes cleaned and so these women would occupy 417 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: these spaces, and of course they were being lorded over 418 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: by the nuns that were put in charge of it. So, 419 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, the whole thing, the whole thing. I can 420 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: understand why why these people are attacking, attacking this this auto, 421 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: I mean this historian, because they looking they're looking into 422 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: the eyes of something that is pure evil here that 423 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: took place in their community. And Dave, this place was 424 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: shut down in nineteen sixty one, Bro, there's still people 425 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: that are out there that have memories of this place. 426 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and knew what was going on, or at least 427 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: knew there were young women there that you know, having children. Again, 428 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: going back to the recovery process, we're talking ten eleven 429 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: years after the place is closed down. You got skeletons 430 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 2: that are being found being pushed to the side. And 431 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: then years, all these years later, you know, we're not 432 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 2: talking you're talking ten to fifteen years after it's closed down. 433 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 2: There's a hint that there's something going on, but they 434 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: covered that up. So now flash forward all these years decades, 435 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: now decades, it's twenty fourteen in the Historian. To be 436 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 2: honest with you, Joe, this is a pretty simple thing. 437 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: How many people died there? We got death records? Yeah, 438 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 2: how many people are buried? Where is the cemetery where? 439 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: And you don't have it. So it's so sad that 440 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: it came down to that that. 441 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it is. And you've got listen in this. 442 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: Also involved in this. It's not just the nuns, the 443 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: local priests, whoever, the the rector was of that particular 444 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: parish that this thing was assigned to, and I'm sure 445 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: that it had a connected parish because what would happen 446 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: is that the priest from that parish would come to 447 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: that location and conduct mass on site. Okay, any kindspiratual needs, confession, 448 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: anything that was going to happen, you know, and of 449 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: course they're trying to quote unquote get these women on 450 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: the right path. They're going to have to hear confession, 451 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,959 Speaker 1: They're going to have to have Bible lessons and everything 452 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: else that comes along with that. The priest is involved, 453 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: that would mean the bishop would also have to have 454 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: knowledge of it as well, because it's part of the diocese. 455 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: And you know who else is involved the people that 456 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: are the local politicians and these are signed death certificates, Dave. 457 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: That means that there were physicians out there. There were 458 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: physicians out there that were listening, and these are very 459 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: specific causes of death. You've got things like diphtheria, which 460 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: is a horrible, you know, kind of airway disruption. You've 461 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,239 Speaker 1: got bronchitis. These are the causes of death. Pneumonia. I 462 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: saw one that was like a tuberculosis. So you've got 463 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: a whole variety of these kids that are dying from 464 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: things that in today's day and age are survivable, I think, 465 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: But where they ill equipped? Could they not? Mean? Because 466 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: there were people that survived pneumonia back then. There were 467 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: kids that survived, There were kids that survived at THEEA, 468 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it has a high mortality rate. But you've 469 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: got all of these people kind of, for lack of 470 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: a better term, cloistered in this particular area, and they're 471 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: there and they're all dying. I guess my question as 472 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: a death investigator is is what we're hearing that's listed 473 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: as a cause of death officially? Was it something else? 474 00:31:53,080 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: Maybe something much more sinister. So authorities have these old 475 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: records going back to the seventies of when skeletons are 476 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 1: discovered Dave, when they started to do the testing around 477 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: this area. Based upon this, they were in for quite 478 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: the shock, weren't they. 479 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: Well, I'm really curious, Joe, because what we you know, 480 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: in looking at how it turned about twenty fourteen, We've 481 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: got the death certificates, but no burials. We already had 482 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: the history of the skeletons. But now as they start looking, 483 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 2: this historian is really pushing. Missus Corlis is pushing for 484 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: something's got to be done. Yeah, And three years after 485 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 2: the article is printed, three years they actually go and 486 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: look in the septic tank. Well, well, i'll call a 487 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: septic tank. It was the septic system used by that 488 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: nunnery that the home. And because they knew where it was, 489 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 2: you know, even though it had been abandoned from that building, 490 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 2: it was still in the ground. The building might have 491 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 2: been raised, but this was still in the ground. And 492 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: so they went out and did testing. Now the testing 493 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: happened eight years ago, twenty seventeen, and they came up 494 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 2: with results. And I really don't know how this, you know, 495 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: could happen, because Joe, when I'm thinking of digging down 496 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 2: into the earth to get core samples, you know, to 497 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 2: determine age and things like that, I mean, they send 498 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: a pipe down there, We've got an area that appears 499 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: to possibly be a tomb of a mass grave. It 500 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 2: is underground. We know that it is commingled. Probably, How 501 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 2: are you going to get a sample? How are you 502 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 2: how do you go about doing that? 503 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: Well, the first thing is you're not going to put 504 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: shovel to earth at this point. You're My suspicion is 505 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: is that they you know, you talked about like from 506 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: a geological standpoint, how people do core samples of the 507 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: earth and that brings out like a solid piece of earth. 508 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: You know, that's multi it's stratified. You know when you 509 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: look at it, it's not what they're going to do here, 510 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: because this is a surface Yeah, it's a septic tank, 511 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: but in the whole grand scheme of things, this is 512 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: a surface burial, all right. So what they're going to 513 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: do is they're going to put in the ground. They're 514 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: gonna put methane probes, and the methane probe sniff out. Obviously, 515 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: methane and methane is a is an element that is 516 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:46,439 Speaker 1: found in the process of decomposition. Okay, as a matter 517 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: of fact, the body of a human body. When you 518 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: when a body swells, for instance, the primary gas that 519 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 1: it's given off as methane. I have actually seen, I've repeated, 520 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: I've stated this before. I've actually seeing a ten gauge 521 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: needle inserted into the stomach of a bloated of a bloated, 522 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: deceased person, and a lighter struck over the end of 523 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: the needle, and it gives off a blue flame, and 524 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: that's the methane burning off. It's real, it's a real thing. 525 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: So once they start to get hits, if they're using 526 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: methane probes, that's when in a very small section, you 527 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: just don't you don't, you don't bring in a bacco, 528 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: all right, You're going to now, as delicately as possible, 529 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: take it down, layer by layer by layer. And I 530 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: would imagine if they still have the notes from where 531 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: the skeletons were found, they might start there as the 532 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: outer boundary and then move back into where they knew 533 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: that septic cank was located, and they would start off 534 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 1: very surface. And once they get hit on those first 535 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: few skeletletans, then the real work is at hand. And Dave, 536 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, because this story is actually 537 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 1: this is occurring in real time as you and I 538 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: are chatting right now. That's one of the reasons I 539 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: want to cover it because I couldn't believe what I 540 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: was reading when I read it, and I knew that 541 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: you would certainly be interested in this. This is going 542 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: on right now, and Dave, I got to tell you 543 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: these co mingle remains. I'm so glad you used that word. 544 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: By the way, I feel like I've taught you. Yeah, 545 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: well you've learned the term commingle. And so just imagine, 546 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: let's just say the idea that I have. If they're 547 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: dropping baby skeletons in through a thief hatch or some 548 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: kind of access point like this, not fleshing them down 549 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: the toilet, then you've got one centralized area of impact. Okay, 550 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,919 Speaker 1: like maybe maybe you've got a stillbirth or another child 551 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: that dies and I don't know, I don't know. Let's 552 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: say January of nineteen twenty two, PLoP. Well, there's another 553 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: one happens in February of twenty three, PLoP, like this, 554 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: and they're just dropping in that one spot. If there's 555 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: one central deposition area in that space, I have to think, 556 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: because I can't imagine a nun walking down through some 557 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: rusty door in her habit and depositing these bodies in 558 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: a sewer. It just seems to me more logical that 559 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: they would have access from above and drop them in there, 560 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: and no one's going to be any of the wiser. 561 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,720 Speaker 1: No one's going to question a nun when they didn't 562 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: back during that period of time. 563 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: Simple math. Yeah, if you look at it, they shut 564 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 2: it down in nineteen sixty one. We know that it 565 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 2: was roughly opened up in the nineteen twenties. So let's 566 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 2: just say forty years, okay, and in forty your period 567 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 2: of time to have eight hundred bodies yep, that's going 568 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 2: to be one every other week, yep. And so you're 569 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 2: right if they're putting them in the same area and 570 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 2: it's a large enough pre septic system sewage system where 571 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 2: it's interesting that it would fit that they would basically 572 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 2: be in that area. Now, one thing that did catch 573 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 2: my attention, Joe, is that in twenty seventeen they I 574 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 2: was wondering how they did the you know, the excavation 575 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 2: when you were talking about using the methane before they 576 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 2: put shovel to ground, right, which didn't occur to me. 577 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 2: But they did a test excavation after they had results, 578 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 2: and that was so in twenty seventeen, they knew, okay, 579 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 2: this we have found. We have found what we're looking for. 580 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 2: But they stopped. And I don't know if they stopped 581 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 2: because you're now dealing with graves. We don't know how 582 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 2: many you're in there. We don't know. We know that 583 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 2: we found at least a couple, but they don't know 584 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 2: how many they have. All they really know is we 585 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 2: have a number of death certificates that we're done. They're 586 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 2: not hiding the deaths. We don't have burials, and so 587 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 2: we don't know if they're all in there. They could 588 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 2: be they could have been buried in unmarked graves. They 589 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 2: could be any there. You know, they could be anywhere. However, 590 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 2: when you go back to the nineteen seventies and you've 591 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 2: got people finding twenty skeletons and throwing that number out 592 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 2: there like it's nothing, twenty skeletons is a lot of 593 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 2: people to be finding skeletonized people. I mean, that would 594 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 2: give me nightmare on Elm Street kind of nightmares for 595 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 2: a while. 596 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: Well, so I think that's bad. The area where this 597 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: place was torn down is now surrounded by modern apartment companients. No, 598 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 1: it is and come on, yeah, and so you've got 599 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: this kind of concentrically located in the middle right there. 600 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 2: We take a hiatus from taping you and I are 601 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 2: going over there with a digital camera in a film 602 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 2: crew and we're making a scary movie. 603 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: We're now I'll be going to the pub to have 604 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: a pint of guinness, So you can go out there 605 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: if you won't say no, I you know it's goodness. 606 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,760 Speaker 1: There's going to be multiple universities involved in this because 607 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: they what they're saying right now, what has happened is 608 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,760 Speaker 1: that the government officials have finally given the go ahead 609 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: for full on excavation of this area. And Dave, to 610 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: give you an idea of how vast this is, they're 611 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: estimating that it will take them to beyond years in 612 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:32,760 Speaker 1: order to facilitate this. So right now as we're speaking, 613 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: we're looking out toward twenty seven or twenty eight before 614 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: this might be complete. And the problem is is that 615 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,879 Speaker 1: you don't know the scope of this. When you get 616 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: into it, you know, yeah, you've got these missing remains. 617 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 1: The skeletons will in fact be I think disarticulated, so 618 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: you really are going to have a jumble a comingled 619 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: jumble in this area. And the one other thing that 620 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: their purpose to do here, Dave, is that they're going 621 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: to do DNA. They're doing DNA on these and you know, 622 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: I think of course about our friends at the author them, 623 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, because this is going to be a case 624 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: that will involve forensic genetic genealogy, because there are descendants 625 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: of the same family line that are out there that 626 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: might not know that there was a child, you know, 627 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: that came into this world and that there was a 628 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: teenage mom that was part and parcel of you know, 629 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: of their family. 630 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 2: And Dave, you gave me it gets worse. 631 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, please, because I got to tell you, get ready, folks. 632 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 2: As bad as it is to think that we've got 633 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 2: this one place run by nuns and seven hundred and 634 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 2: ninety six children that are unaccounted for in their death, 635 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 2: thankfully one historian opened this door. Yeah, here are the 636 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 2: other numbers that are associated with this, because this wasn't 637 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 2: the only home run by nuns in the Republic of Ireland. 638 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 2: I did say that, right, correct, Yes, yeah, okay, yep. 639 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 2: A major inquiry has been done in the time since 640 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 2: this first came out in twenty fourteen, they've been studying 641 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,240 Speaker 2: and it's been determined the mother and baby homes found 642 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:28,240 Speaker 2: in the Republic of Ireland. There were eighteen total different 643 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:33,760 Speaker 2: homes run in this same time period and a total 644 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 2: of about nine thousand children dead. Nine thousand children amongst 645 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 2: the eighteen homes, and the death certificates are there, Joe. 646 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 2: We've got them dying from things like respiratory infections, gastro enteritis. 647 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 2: Isn't that stomach flew? Yeah, okay, and a few other 648 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 2: things like that. But nine children dad over eighteen of 649 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 2: their homes and they got to figure out where the 650 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:10,959 Speaker 2: bodies are. 651 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's and again, how do you make account for 652 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: these Do some of these homes or at least the 653 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: structure still stand? Is there an area that had been 654 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: designated previously, you know, as a graveyard. It reminds me 655 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: of the Doser School in Florida, which was the boys 656 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: home down there, and there's been several documentaries absolutely heartbreaking 657 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: where these these young men were young boys actually were 658 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: sent to state home and they were, you know, delinquent 659 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:49,879 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. They would keep them there 660 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: for years and literally treat them like slave labor and 661 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: take them out into windowless building and beat them. And 662 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: many of these kids died, and they were buried and 663 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,840 Speaker 1: unmarked graves, and there was a big push. And I 664 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,840 Speaker 1: think that going back in time, as we dig deeper 665 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: down into records, I think that you'll find more of 666 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,720 Speaker 1: these events. Right now, the spotlight is on the Republic 667 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,399 Speaker 1: of Ireland, and you know what else, the spotlight is 668 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: on the Catholic Church. And I would make a plea 669 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: right now to the new poplio who seems receptive of things. 670 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: Right now. I think that it would be a great 671 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: start if the Catholic Church would put their full might, 672 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: power and finances into solving this mystery that is certainly 673 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: a stain on the beautiful country of Ireland. Help with 674 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 1: the DNA, Help with getting these young children, you know, 675 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: buried properly. Send your priest out there, do last rites, 676 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,879 Speaker 1: do whatever you need to do to make it right 677 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,800 Speaker 1: with the community, because there's no replacing these precious little ones, 678 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: none whatsoever. But there's a chance that healing could begin, 679 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: and you never know in this old crazy world where 680 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:17,920 Speaker 1: that healing are, what that healing will lead to. I'm 681 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags