1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: culturally insensitive language and violence. This just then. We're continuing 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: to follow breaking news out of Los Angeles. A man 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: identified as Gerald Hayes has kidnapped the police officer and 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: is in a standoff with the l a p D 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: his demands that he'd be able to hold an online 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: vigilante justice trial against his hostage, who he says is 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: responsible for his son's death. A disturbing video released earlier 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: this evening shows two police officers and yet another example 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: of police using excessive force against an African American male 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: who he presumed to be Gerald Hayes's eighteen year old son, 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: Niles Hayes. Colleen Sanders, who has been following this story 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: from the ground for the past few hours, has the 14 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: latest Colleen, thank you Ryan, as you can hear behind me. 15 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: A wave of protesters have emerged in response to the 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: video Gerald Hayes released in which officers are seen brutally 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: attacking his son. This public outcry, of course, all happening 18 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: while police are still trying to get Gerald Hayes to 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: stand down and release kidnapped policeman. Sergeant Place So far, 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: demonstrations have been peaceful, but riot police have been deployed 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: and there have already been over half a dozen arrests. 22 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: By the time I made my way across town, you 23 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: couldn't get a car anywhere near the restaurant. Michelle Hayes, 24 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: Niles's mother recounts the police had blocked off the streets 25 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: all over the place. I'd say probably for about a 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: good two miles in every direction. So what did you 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: do first? I drove around for a bit, just trying 28 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: to figure a way in, But eventually I just parked 29 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: my car and started walking towards Jase's forty two. As 30 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: you were heading towards the restaurant, did you see a 31 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: lot of protesters at that time? Though I didn't see anyone, 32 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: I could hear them though, went in away. Mam me nervous? 33 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: Why because I was in the dark, literally and figuratively. 34 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: When I was still in the car, there was nothing 35 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: about what was going on playing on the radio, and 36 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: my phone had run out of battery. Wait, so you 37 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: didn't know about the police attack and Gerald's trial. No, basically, 38 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: I just knew something big was going down at Jess 39 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: forty two, and that's where Niles and Gerald were, and 40 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: I couldn't get in touch with either one of them, 41 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: So you didn't know that Niles had already passed. No, 42 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: not at that point. It was it was just so strange, Kate. 43 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: It was night and I was sort of turned around. 44 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: I didn't know exactly where the restaurant was. I couldn't 45 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: use the directions on my phone, and for some reason, 46 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: the way I was walking, nobody else was around. I 47 00:02:50,280 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: was alone. Well, Michelle, protesters and the media organically gravitated 48 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,679 Speaker 1: towards Jason's forty two sports bar and grill. People engaged 49 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: with Gerald's online trial as well by the millions. In short, 50 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: it had gone viral, But as it turns out, how 51 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: this happened may have been because of inorganic reasons. So 52 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: how many people actually viewed the initial live link of 53 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: Gerald's video post fifty two this is the voice again 54 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: of Filbico, CEO of the polycam app okay, And how 55 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: many people have viewed it to date? Well, obviously the 56 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: numbers isn't static, and it's grown quite a bit since 57 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: that day, but it's north of two billion. That's billion 58 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: with a B, yes, So how does something like that 59 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: even happen. The answer is a few things, some of 60 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: which I can answer and some I can't. Okay, well, 61 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: that's fair, But am I asking too much of you 62 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: to at least break down into categories what you can 63 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: answer versus which you can't. Sure? So we have an 64 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: algorithm and other data driven software that serves intent with 65 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: growth potential to users. Any more information beyond that on 66 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: the programming side, and we're getting into proprietary information. So 67 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: that's all I can give you in that category. Got it? Okay? 68 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: So am I wrong in saying that what you just 69 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: said basically means really smart computers program by really smart 70 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: people are responsible. Hey guys, guys, guys, guys, I'm gonna 71 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: jump in here right now. The voice that just interrupted 72 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: is Phil's attorney. I had no idea he was listening 73 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: in on the call. As you can tell from his tone, 74 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: he's a real pit bull. I'm I'm sorry. Who are you? 75 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: David Albright, lead counsel for Polycam, And I'm sure you're 76 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: already aware that Polycams in the midst of a civil 77 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: lawsuit regards to this case. So I'm going to insist 78 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: that Phil's not delve into territories they could potentially complicated 79 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: for us legally. For the record, I was aware that 80 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: they were in the middle of a civil suit with 81 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: the family of Officer Web I'm also aware that Polycham 82 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: is planning an I p O in the coming months, 83 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: and I'm sure they don't want pending litigation impacting their valuation. 84 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: So I put on my nice girl voice and tactfully retreat, 85 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: especially since I know Phil has brought a bazuka in 86 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: the form of his attorney to my knife right he Look, guys, 87 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: I have no problem staying in my swim lane. So 88 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: let me just ask you this question a little bit 89 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: more broadly, why did Gerald's video go viral? M sure 90 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: the two main reasons his post went viral where traditional 91 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: media was giving a story a lot of attention, and 92 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: because the right user with really high engagement and relevance 93 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: shared it to their network. And who was that at 94 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: Wolken Sassy? Wait, what you remember from the first episode 95 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: that it was at Wolken Sassi's post about Gerald that 96 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: started me on this journey. Gerald is a he rolf 97 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: of taking medicine to his own hands. And if you 98 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: can't see that, then I'm not working with you. Ironically, 99 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,559 Speaker 1: interviewing her wasn't a part of my original plan because 100 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to keep my investigations centered around the people 101 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: who actively participated in the events in and around Jase's 102 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: forty You that night. But after my discussion with Philobiko, 103 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: it appears as though she may have had a significant 104 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: influence on the exposure of Gerald's link, and this is 105 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: just something I had to follow up on. This is 106 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: me hiking upstairs leading to a third floor photography studio 107 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: a downtown building doesn't have an elevator, and I'm embarrassed 108 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: by how just a few steps has me winded okate. 109 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: Most of these influencers and companies out here don't care 110 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: about nothing but likes, views, comments, dollars. And since this 111 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: is Kimberly Royce, more commonly known as Woken Sassy, she 112 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: is chock full of personality and she's probably one of 113 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: the most influential people on social media. She's legendary for 114 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: her unique take on pop culture, of fashion, beauty, and 115 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: social justice. I'm meeting with her in the green room 116 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: as she's getting her hair done for a magazine photo shoot. 117 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: This is apparently going to be her first cover and 118 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, Kate. I care about those things too, 119 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: especially my money, but care just as much about sense 120 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: as I do dollars. That's sense spelled s E N 121 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: S E. And what those cops did to that poor 122 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: boy didn't make none. So I talked with Philobiko, the 123 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: CEO of Pollycam, and he said that Gerald's post went 124 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: viral in large part because of the power of your influence. 125 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: Come on, now, you weren't born yesterday, were you gay? 126 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: So you don't think it was you. Listen. I have 127 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: no problem taking credit for everything that I do. But 128 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: then boys up in Menlo Park at Pollycam is playing games. 129 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: How's that, Kate? Come on, Please don't let the glitz 130 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: and the glamour of the smooth taste fool you. I 131 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: am a professional, an expert okay seo, data mining, monetization analytics, 132 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: click tracking, session recordings. I am up on all of that, 133 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: sweet tea, because this is what I do. You think, 134 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: I don't know how much attention and money everything I 135 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: post share in comment on should get down to the 136 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: number of likes and sense by the second and that 137 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: one since c E N T S that wasn't me, honey, 138 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: that was all back in and I am not talking 139 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: about my dairy air either. And when you say that 140 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: was all back end, what do you mean by that? Eight? 141 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: I usually charge nine an hour for consulting. But I 142 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: like you, so I'm gonna sprinkle this little knowledge are 143 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: away for free. Every social media app you use and love, 144 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,119 Speaker 1: you access it through the front end. Okay, the people 145 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: who make the app run the back end, which is 146 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: usually not as pretty as the front end, with the 147 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: flashy graphics and all that. But on the back end 148 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: there are always tools to push whatever content they want 149 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: to make sure users see. Well. In all fairness, Polycham 150 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: did credit their algorithm with amplifying Gerald's post. Please please, 151 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: please please stop. Ain't no computer smart enough to take 152 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: somebody's post who has zero followers and make it blow 153 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: up the way it did somebody up in their office 154 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: press click on select all and push that thing to 155 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: everybody in the system. So you're saying it was manual 156 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: a hundred per cent. And why would they do that? 157 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: Because people out here don't care about nothing but likes us, comments, 158 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: dollars and cents. Bull and talking to fill in his 159 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: lawyer from Polly Cham, it was obvious that they weren't 160 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: being totally transparent, but my short conversation with Kimberly definitely 161 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: highlighted the potential liability Polycam was facing if Gerald's post 162 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: was manually promoted by one of its employees, but irrespective 163 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: of whether or not Pollycam tampered with the growth of 164 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: Gerald's post on the back end, or if news stations 165 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: picking up the story had an impact on exposing the link. 166 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: From the time Gerald ended his live stream to less 167 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: than an hour later, the number of views went from 168 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty two to north of ten million. 169 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: So if the police hostage negotiation team and the trailer 170 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: felt like they were behind the eight ball before Gerald's post, 171 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't take much imagination to realize how much additional 172 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: pressure this put on them. Commander Ammon's reflects, Yeah, I 173 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: definitely that feeling of being caught between the hammer and 174 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: the anvil. Okay, And it wasn't just me either, because 175 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: you could just sense the tension rising in my team 176 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: during our discussions about what to do next. Discussion. It 177 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: wasn't a discussion, it was borderline mutiny. This is Detective 178 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: Patterson per usual. His version of events tend to be 179 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: more unvarnished. Oh please tell me you have a recording 180 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: of this too, Cage, What do you think of me? 181 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: I just go around recording every conversation I've ever been in. Oh, 182 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: of course not. It just said, so far you have 183 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: come up with some pretty awesome tapes, Curtis. I'm sorry, 184 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: there's no offense not taking. I just wanted to set 185 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: the record straight. I only secretly record conversations on rare occasions. Hobbes, 186 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: on the other hand, now that's a different story altogether. 187 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: Can you set the stage for us on this? Yeah, 188 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: so I had worked up a pretty decent amount of 189 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: venttel to present to the commander, based on your old 190 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: video and other sources I had pulled together. This is 191 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: Sergeant Hobbs speaking. Detective Patterson and I both felt that 192 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: I had put together researched strong enough to convince Emmon's 193 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: that we had a better understanding of Gerald and you know, 194 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: how do I say this? We also felt the two 195 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: of us just had a better vibe of the overall 196 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: interpersonal dynamics between Gerald and Jason, or Jason Martin, or 197 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: even Gerald and Martin. Is it fair to say you 198 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: guys were feeling confident? Yes, So is it also fair 199 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: to say that you thought Detective Homer wasn't the right 200 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: negotiation lead for this case. You're putting me on the spot. 201 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: That wouldn't necessarily say that. What would you say? Patterson 202 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: was going to champion my intel and get me an 203 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: audience with the commander. If I just walked into the 204 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: trailer and said I had something, it would probably go nowhere. 205 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: Homer and I didn't have that type of rapport. So 206 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: the fact that Patterson, who I get along with great, 207 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: was willing to vouch for my work was a definite plus. 208 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: So anyway, we enter the command trail and I'm sort 209 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: of sitting back when for Paterson and give me a 210 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: nod to chime in, When all of a sudden, Captain 211 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: Florence starts screaming. That's when I reach into my pocket 212 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: and triggered the record. But no, myself, what was it 213 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: about the outburst from Flora's that made you start recording? No? 214 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: Call it a reflex, This is bullshit. Something on your mind, 215 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: Captain Commander. We need to take this building now. This 216 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: negotiation is fucked, hasn't gotten us in any work, And 217 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: if you ask me, I only think it's made things worse. 218 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: You ever stop to consider, there's a reason nobody asked 219 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: you let the command to do his job, and you do. 220 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: You in search of places position, I prefer somebody around 221 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: here grow a pair and put up a fight. Captain, Sir, 222 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: I'm just saying this guy Gerald has shown his cars 223 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: and it's clear zero respect for us by the way 224 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: he's talking to this clown. You got running the negotiation, 225 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: you Florence, you want to go a fucking knock you, then, hey, hey, 226 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: knock it off. Captain. I'm not gonna warn you again. 227 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: Get your ship together, understood it, understand Paumer, get the 228 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 1: entergy back in the throw line now, well, thanks for 229 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: getting Chippy inside the command trailer. The pressure inside the 230 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: restaurant was intensifying as well. That sounds you're hearing is 231 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: Martin Simms wheeling Sergeant Place from the dining room area 232 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: back into the kitchen. But what you're about to hear 233 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: next is one of those things that pop up when 234 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: researching a project like this. When there's an embarrassment of 235 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 1: riches as it relates to footage and other recorded sources, Inevitably, 236 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: editorial decisions have to be made about what's important to 237 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: keep versus what should be left on the cutting room floor. 238 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: I was on the fence about this moment, and after 239 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: vigorous debate with my team, I was still undecided. But 240 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: ultimately Martin said something that actually convinced me to keep it. 241 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: An extreme situation like the one we had that day 242 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: and night, you can learn certain things by certain truths 243 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: about life. What truth did you learn? That dignity is 244 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: a part of our survival mechanism? That's interesting. Yeah. It 245 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: sort of acts like a canary in the coal wine 246 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: for you, because when you feel you didn't get slipping away, 247 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: it's a clear sign that you're in mortal danger. It's 248 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: like being a passenger in a car driving a hundred 249 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: miles per hour and then you suddenly see a road 250 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: sign that reads stop, clip ahead three feet Yeah, And 251 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: when you go with and pass a sign like that, 252 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're thinking yourself, I hope there's 253 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: enough road here. We're gonna go fly over that edge. 254 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: What Martin is referring to is the moment right after 255 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: he wield Sergeant Place back into the kitchen, where again 256 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: the two people who wanted most to get out of 257 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: the bar were about as far away from Gerald as 258 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: they could be. Listen, I need to go, trust me, man, God, 259 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: the restroom they've been holding for hours. Oh um, let 260 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: me ask Geral. No, don't stop, don't ask him, right, 261 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: all right, German, what are you gonna do yourself? Use 262 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: a bucket or applied or something? Oh all right, yeah, man, 263 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: can you feel my fingers? You canna help me? So 264 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: now I'm sitting there, its cops, penis and out one 265 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: hand and helping him relieve himself in the bugget I'm 266 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: holding with my old hand and yeah, okay, let me. 267 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: The whole situation was a mess, but I think the 268 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: indignity of that moment is both thinking the same thing. 269 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: You clip up bed. They're probably not going to survive this. 270 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: So then he starts angling on me, kind of how 271 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: I've been working on Chase. I don't policeman. It was 272 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: with the outside off the web. He just got married. 273 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not gonna make it either. 274 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: Look at me a blood Hey, you see me on 275 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: the back the front. They treat the whole fire in 276 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: these situations. If I die, it doesn't matter what you're saying, 277 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: You're gonna be accessory. Look at life, imprison or worse 278 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: some compute they do. That came over you now, hero. 279 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: Sergeant Place cuts the conversation abruptly as he sees Gerald 280 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: entered the kitchen. Who just stands there imposingly for fifteen seconds. Eventually, 281 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: Martin sort of cowers and scoots around Gerald to exit 282 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: to the main bar area, leaving Gerald in Sergeant Place alone. 283 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: This doesn't over you, you know that, right? The sting 284 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: you think you're doing this stupid fucking trial. Oh the 285 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: attention and a power to control you think you have 286 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: still an't take it away from you, and that's just 287 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: you haveing nothing. Gerald noticed thing this thing And when 288 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: my boy died, the only thing I have a control 289 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: in my entire life was raising my fun and he 290 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: drum that man, you cast it in now, Jesse. Yeah, 291 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: things were starting to get a little. Harry. Gerald is 292 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: desperate because he just lost Niles. So just placed his 293 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: desperate because he's bleeding out and having a pistol ship 294 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: in the bucket. And you know Martin's desperate just because look, 295 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: he just ain't built for ship like this. And what 296 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: about you? I was pressed, whdn't say I was desperate? 297 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: Feel me? I guess I've had my head knocked around 298 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: too many times be scared like that. Plus I was 299 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: self medicating heavily, so I still had my normal you know, 300 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: my normal cool, you know what I mean. But probably 301 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: the main reason I wasn't overly concerned with the police 302 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: standoff at the time because I was still distracted putting 303 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: out another fire? What fire? Invest the problems? First? Money? 304 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: You know my bar was Big Age, and he just 305 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: kept calling me that day. Hey, did you just say 306 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: that Big Age invested in Jason's forty two? Yeah? Don't 307 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: you know that? The same Big Age that saw Gerald 308 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: and yes, the same Big Age that would end up Yes. Wow, 309 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: mm hmmm. He does not strike me as the type 310 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: of guy you want to be in debt too. You 311 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: ain't saying none but a word. Did you ever answer 312 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: his call too? What do you say, run me my money, 313 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: Big Age? Were you really expecting Jays to pay you 314 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: back in the middle of a standoff? I mean, you 315 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: got to look at it from my perspective, Jason had 316 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: been gassing me up about this damn restaurant and milked 317 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: me for over a year and a half. How much 318 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: did you end up investing? Too much? I was all 319 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 1: money in and no money out. Then I look up 320 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: on TV. Now just dead Gerald is gang banging again, 321 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: but through the internet, and you got the whole l 322 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,479 Speaker 1: A p D outside of my building ready to light 323 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: the entire block up. I mean, come on, it seemed 324 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: like this was a kind of scenario to what they 325 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: needed some advice to help them figure out on how 326 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: not to trick off what I had put in. So 327 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: what was the advice. I wouldn't call it advice, more 328 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: like an ultimated You know, Age was like, Jason, you 329 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: need to figure out how to resolve this situation quick 330 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: because what you've got going on is bad for business. Okay, 331 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: but look, you also had to understand me. G and 332 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: Big Age I've known each other for a long time 333 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: since we was kids. So even though Big Age was 334 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: riding on me about business, he also wanted me to 335 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: tell Gerald that if he needed anything, he would be 336 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: that far. And what do you think that meant? At 337 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: the time, I figured he meant help with like funeral expenses, 338 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: that's sort of thing, But that was just an add 339 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: on message. His main point was that I needed to 340 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: figure out a way to get out of this mess. 341 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: So its money wouldn't flush down the toilet. And it's 342 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: not it's not like I disagreed with him, you know. 343 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: But the problem was as soon as I got off 344 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: the front with HS, it's coming at me kind of 345 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: crazy again. Here's part of that exchange between Jason Gerald. 346 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: No more fucking vocal what man? That was just big 347 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: to let you know that he got you. If you 348 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: need anything, fucking talk too much, man, that's me for real, 349 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: force out of here. You need to start include me. 350 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: You don't need decisions. You make it. You ain't, man, 351 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: Shut the funk up, stay on the fucking phone. What 352 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: you can't bust me upside the head and let me 353 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: do what you want. I ain't want. No, you're right, 354 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: you're right, Jase. I won't do you like Martin. I'll 355 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: shoot you. I wasn't that medicated. Did you think he'd 356 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: really shoot? Well? Yeah, but not like with malice in 357 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: his heart and anything like that. It's just that if 358 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: he said he was gonna do a thing, he's gonna 359 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: do a thing, you know. I mean, the man has 360 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: his principles. What principle was that that was the principal. Love, 361 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: get the funk out my way. But you know, O Kate. 362 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: I think a negotiator's mind works differently than most other people. 363 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: I've lost count of how many beers Detective Patterson has had, 364 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: but it's a lot. To his credit, though the alcohol 365 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,479 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to have any effect on his faculties when 366 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: everyone else is panicking about the video, all I'm seeing 367 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: this multiple ways in When you say away in you 368 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: mean like a way into the building, yes, and no, 369 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: by way in, I primarily mean a way into the 370 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: HD's heart, into the HD's mind, into the soul. Even 371 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: m there was a treasure trove of information at Jerald's 372 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: video For starters, we picked up Gerald Hayes name. We 373 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: see j Shaw in the video and he's mentioned by 374 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: name as well. Sergeant placed teed up for us that 375 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: Jerald's probably a convicted felon. So now we're able to 376 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: run his record into the system and get back even 377 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: more info, which then allow Hobbs to take everything we 378 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: got and create a profile of who and what we're 379 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: exactly dealing with. Also the Hobbes's credit, he did just 380 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: put together a profile to Gerald. He also profiled j 381 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: I was able to I D Martin Simms and model 382 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: up something for him too. Wow, how did he do that? 383 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: Detective for Kate, Detective for Sergeant Hobbs proudly remembers, I 384 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,239 Speaker 1: ran the plates of all the cars that had been 385 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: sitting on the streets since we arrived on the scene. 386 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: Once we got the vehicle's owner's names, like Google searched 387 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: those with Jason Shaw, Martin Simms had multiple hits. So 388 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: I researched him and found out what I needed to know, 389 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: which was he used to be a recruiter for sports 390 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: agencies and we get close to star prospects while they 391 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: were still in college, high school, even there was his 392 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: job to get these athletes whatever they wanted, cash, cars, girls, drugs. 393 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: He delivered players to Corporate America, and he got a 394 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: fat commission once he signed. And what did that tell you? 395 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: He most likely it's not an HT, he's a bystander, 396 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: probably another hostage. So if I'm a negotiators p o V, 397 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: all this stuff is invaluable, the profiles, the models. But 398 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: you want to know what the most important thing I 399 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: heard in Gerald's video? You know, I do. Gerald believed 400 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: that everything he was doing was for his son, whether 401 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: it was jumping on the cops outside, was starting his 402 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: online trial. So now I know what makes this guy tick. 403 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: You give me that, and the odds are I'm going 404 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: to be able to talk you down. Yeah, it wasn't 405 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: home or the one doing the talking at that point, 406 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: no one was doing the talking. Joe hadn't picked up 407 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: the throw line since he started his trial, and the 408 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: bigger problem was people were voting. So what changed the commander? 409 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: Listen to this recording from inside the police trailer where 410 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: we hear Ammond's put the screws to his team following 411 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: the insubordinate outburst from Captain flores Things got a bit 412 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: heated earlier, but I wanted to be clear that I'm 413 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: not going to tolerate misconduct, Yes, sir, What was that? Yes, sir, 414 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: Captain Florence before I make the necessary personnel change this 415 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: team them. Do you ever think you want to set 416 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: to the group? Sorry from my out verser, won't happen again, sir, 417 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: It certainly won't, and I haven't said that. I thought, Man, 418 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 1: it's going to firefloor as on the spot going forward. 419 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: If we get through to the HT again, Detective Patterson, 420 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,479 Speaker 1: you'll be taking over commanded, you do. You can't really 421 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: expect that, my decision is final. I mean, I was stunned, 422 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: but why didn't you and Hobbes pitch him on doing 423 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: just that we did? But the Commander didn't show his 424 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: cards at all. And I'm trained the spot when somebody's 425 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: hiding with their thinking. He tipped nothing. And you have 426 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: to understand, Halmer and the Commander are boys. They go 427 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: fishing trips together with their families, they coach a basketball 428 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: team together. They're tight. So, Commander, I have to ask, 429 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: when you tap Detective Patterson to replace Homer as lead negotiator, 430 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: why didn't you have someone take over it for Captain 431 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: Flores as well? What do you mean? Well, from what 432 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: I hear, he was pretty disrespectful towards you after Gerald 433 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: announced his trial, and ironically, it was Homer who had 434 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: your back the most. Okay, okay, Stan is a good 435 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: friend and a great cop. But after giving him a 436 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: couple of runs and negotiating with Gerald, I just didn't 437 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: feel like he was the right man for this particular scenario. 438 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: And as far as Captain Flores was concerned, there was 439 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: just no way that I was going to relieve someone 440 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: with that much experience from his post in the middle 441 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: of a standoff. Sure we had words, but given the circumstances, 442 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: I felt that was just one of those blows I 443 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: needed to absorb and then quickly get him back in line, 444 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: which he did, and I'm glad he did too, because 445 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: he wasn't just responsible for tactical as it related to 446 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: the standoff. He was also overseeing crowd control. Okay, the 447 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: professional protesters were showing up in droves, and there's just 448 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: nobody in the department that has as much knowledge and 449 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 1: experience as Flora's when it comes to x acuting on 450 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: both of those disciplines. I have to tell you, given 451 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: all that was going on at this point in the evening, 452 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: a tactical assault was an option that was becoming increasingly 453 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: more attractive than bottom line. I needed Flora's for that. 454 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: I can't point that you can say here the taser 455 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: adventurablele art of every when I we elevated, did Ryan 456 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: here have had this flash protectors? Have? Colleen Sanders looks 457 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: back on her reporting. This wasn't just local news anymore. 458 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: The story was picked up nationally, so our feed was 459 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: being broadcast directly to Ryan Smith's nightly show. I don't 460 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: know what his numbers are today, but at the time 461 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: he had the best ratings on cable in the country. 462 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: So when I say this was everywhere, it was everywhere, which, 463 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: to be honest, Kate, this was a big deal for 464 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: me professionally speaking. So basically, I'm literally doing the biggest 465 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: report of my career. When over the chanting crowds, I 466 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: hear one of the protesters screaming, this is the this 467 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: is the mother, this is n I'm reporting live when 468 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: I hear that man yell out, this is Niles's mother, 469 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: and I look over my shoulder and I see this 470 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: woman standing there on the opposite side of this somewhat 471 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: porous row of riot police, and she's just kind of 472 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: getting bumped around by this flood of people marching through. 473 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: And to this day, I don't know what came over me, 474 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: but I just marched through the police line, grabbed her 475 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: and started pulling her back onto our side of the perimeter. Hey, 476 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: why are you doing. Don't do that the side. Okay, 477 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: she's with that, she's with that, And somehow I got 478 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: her through. So now we're back inside that outer ring 479 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: that I talked about before. And to be honest, I 480 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: wasn't even sure if this was really Niles's mother. But 481 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: if it was, I just I just knew I had 482 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: to grab her. Mind you, this is all happening on 483 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: national television live. The camera is still on me and 484 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: it's on her too, So I just asked her, are 485 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: you notice Haye's mother? Yeah? Yeah, Then she leans close 486 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: into my ear and says something. I look at the 487 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: camera without a doubt, the biggest moment of my career. 488 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: Then I looked back at her. Then I called out, 489 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: cut it. Call you were, I don't care. We're not 490 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: going to use her like that. Cut it now, right, 491 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: She's not ready, right, she got to be ready. In 492 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: the footage, we can't hear what Michelle said to you. 493 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: I know, do you mind sharing that with us? I 494 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: have thought about this a lot, for both professional and 495 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: personal reasons, and I'm not certain if it's so much 496 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: what she said as how she did it. What do 497 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: you mean She sort of leaned away from the microphone 498 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: and spoke in my ear, and it disarmed me. It 499 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: got intimate. Yeah, I mean you know how it is, Kate. 500 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: When you're in the field, a microphone can almost act 501 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 1: like an emotional shield between you and your subject, and 502 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: anyway she she asked, is what they're saying true? Did 503 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: they kill my baby? Yeah? So her question did three things. One, 504 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: I felt completely confident that this was in fact Nel's mother. Two, 505 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: it made me realize that she knew less than I did. 506 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: And Third, I went from seeing her as a great 507 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: exclusive interview to someone who needed help. So I had 508 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: to make a split second decision. Do I do this 509 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: to her, do what you know, open her up, raw 510 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: wounded and feed her to the audience, or do I 511 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: give her a minute as a human being, as a 512 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: mother to catch up to what everyone else had already learned? 513 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: The Niles was gone exactly Okay, So that was my 514 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: big moment. I don't know, Maybe I just don't have 515 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: that killer instinct, you know. I always thought I did, 516 00:31:50,680 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: But m hm, when it counted, I didn't pull the trigger. Hello, 517 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: there's a Detective Patterson Los Angeles. I am your negotiator. 518 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: Next time. Hashtag Matter, starring Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes, 519 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, Steve Harris as Jason shaw Hayley, 520 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, Pooch Hall as Martin Simms, 521 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: and Snoop Dogg as Big h additional performances by Nile 522 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: Bullock as Nile's Hayes, Serena Pouncey as Michelle Hayes, Monte 523 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex Vaughan as Darrell Hanover. 524 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 1: Hashtag Matter was written and directed by Dylan C. Brown. 525 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown, 526 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: Winnie Kemp, and Aimon Joseph. Audio designed by Wolf at 527 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: the Door, Sound design and mix by Josh Falcon, music 528 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Bowland, and our sound 529 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby Lawless and Lucy Jones. 530 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter is a production of 531 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio and 532 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: an association with Wolf at the Door. For more podcasts 533 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: from shot Land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 534 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.