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Speaker 1: I don't want to see us in a position where

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Speaker 1: like we're just flooded by low quality, inaccurate misinformation. That's

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Speaker 1: just like brain candy.

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Speaker 2: There are no girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm brigitad and this is

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Speaker 2: there are no girls on the Internet. So recently, I've

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Speaker 2: been deeply fascinated by this noticeable uptick in AI generated

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Speaker 2: low effort content all over social media. On Facebook, maybe

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Speaker 2: you saw the picture of the elderly twins who are

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Speaker 2: celebrating their one hundred and twentieth birthday, posted alongside the

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Speaker 2: caption prompting you to leave them a little birthday love,

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Speaker 2: or that bizarre image of Jesus made entirely out of

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Speaker 2: shrimp asking for an amen. Now, on Facebook, it does

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Speaker 2: tend to trend a little bit more Sacraine. But over

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Speaker 2: on TikTok, creators are flooding the platform with low effort

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Speaker 2: videos that push truly ridiculous conspiracy theories, things like the

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Speaker 2: government is holding a vampire hostage. And not only that,

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Speaker 2: but because of the way TikTok's creativity program works, spreading

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Speaker 2: these ridiculous lies equals a payday. It sounds really silly

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Speaker 2: and maybe even kind of harmless but disinformation. Researcher and

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Speaker 2: friend of the show, Abby Richards, who has been tracking

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Speaker 2: the spread of this kind of content for Media Matters, says,

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Speaker 2: if garbage like this is incentivized, it makes our entire

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Speaker 2: Internet ecosystem worse. I usually start by asking my guests

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Speaker 2: to like introduce themselves, give us their title, all of that,

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Speaker 2: But I feel like by now people know you. You are

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Speaker 2: a certified friend of the show, Abby Richards, Welcome back.

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Speaker 2: We're so happy you are here.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Bridget you know I would do absolutely

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Speaker 1: anything for you. And do you need a kidney, You

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Speaker 1: can have one.

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Speaker 2: I feel the last time I saw you, I was

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Speaker 2: pretty drunk in.

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Speaker 1: Berlin and we had a great time.

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Speaker 2: So the reason I wanted to talk to you today

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Speaker 2: is because you're sort of my I don't know, resident

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Speaker 2: TikTok expert. I feel like nobody knows the platform better

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Speaker 2: than you. And what I say, knowing the platform, I

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Speaker 2: mean the good, the way that it can connect people,

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Speaker 2: educate people, bring people together, give people access to community

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Speaker 2: they didn't know they had, and also the bad because

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Speaker 2: as much as I know you like TikTok. I don't

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Speaker 2: know that I know many people that are as honest

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Speaker 2: about the platform and as critical of the platform as you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. I really approach TikTok from two angles,

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Speaker 1: which are the two hats that I always wear. My

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Speaker 1: first hat is as a researcher and like studying misinformation

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Speaker 1: extremism on the platform. But then my other hat is

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Speaker 1: a content creator and like a user of TikTok, someone

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Speaker 1: who was found great joy there at times, and there's

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Speaker 1: I like situations where there's complexity, you know, like we

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Speaker 1: can understand that things can be simultaneously amazing and also terrible,

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Speaker 1: and we can hold space for both of those things

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Speaker 1: at the same time.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad that you were doing that because I feel

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Speaker 2: so often when we're talking about technology, it's either this

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Speaker 2: technology is harming everybody and it should be made like

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Speaker 2: it's it's I think there's a temptation to talk about

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Speaker 2: it in a binary either like all good or all bad.

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Speaker 2: And I'm happy that people like you can really bring

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Speaker 2: the nuance of like, well, here's all the good things.

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Speaker 2: I want to be honest about all the good things

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Speaker 2: it's brought to me, but let's also be honest about

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Speaker 2: the places that are not so good and the things

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Speaker 2: that need to be fixed on the platform.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because also, how are we going to move forward

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Speaker 1: and create better digital spaces if we can't pinpoint what's working,

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Speaker 1: what's good, what do we like, and also what's not

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Speaker 1: working what's harmful? Like, I'm all for creating healthy digital

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Speaker 1: spaces where people can thrive and like evolve and learn

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Speaker 1: and grow and laugh and build community love like, yeah, amazing,

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Speaker 1: but I want to avoid creating spaces that like are

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Speaker 1: exclusively prioritizing profit right and in doing that, creating some

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Speaker 1: like really toxic spaces.

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Speaker 2: Well, to that end, let's talk about some of the

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Speaker 2: reporting that you did around something happening on TikTok. So

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Speaker 2: you initially pointed this out with Media Matters back in February.

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Speaker 2: We're talking months later. But it's really that folks had

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Speaker 2: been exploiting TikTok's creativity program by pumping out viral conspiracy

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Speaker 2: theory content using AI generated images and voices for profit.

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Speaker 2: So I want to start with what exactly is TikTok's

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Speaker 2: creativity program for folks who aren't familiar with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So TikTok's Creativity Program actually was TikTok. It was

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Speaker 1: technically was called or TikTok Creativity Program Beta because it

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Speaker 1: was in beta, and it was a program designed to

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Speaker 1: compensate creators for the content that they produce, which is amazing,

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Speaker 1: that's great. We do want to be paying people for

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Speaker 1: their labor on those platforms. And the criteria for eligibility

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Speaker 1: for the Creativity Program Beta was that you had an

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Speaker 1: account based in countries where it was available. You had

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Speaker 1: to be at least eighteen years old, you had to

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Speaker 1: have at least ten thousand followers, you had to have

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Speaker 1: at least one hundred thousand video views in the last

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Speaker 1: thirty days, and the videos that you could monetize that

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Speaker 1: could be monetized had to be at least sixty seconds long.

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Speaker 1: So that was replaced. In March, they ended the Creativity

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Speaker 1: Program Beta and officially launched the Creator Forwards program, which

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Speaker 1: is very very similar in structure, essentially same requirements, but

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Speaker 1: is no longer in beta.

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Speaker 2: So because of this program, these tiktoks can rack up

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Speaker 2: millions and millions and millions of views, which makes woever

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Speaker 2: post that probably a pretty good bit of money. What

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Speaker 2: kind of conspiracy theories are you seeing in these tiktoks.

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Speaker 1: Oh. We had the seemingly AI Joe Rogan predicting Texas

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Speaker 1: will seceed starting a civil war, which had eight hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand views. Simpson's predicted that the Baltimore Bridge would collapse.

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Speaker 1: That has two point seven million views. It is also

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Speaker 1: a minute in one second seemingly Ai j o'rogan saying

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Speaker 1: about three weeks ago, a man named Blake Dawson embarked

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Speaker 1: on a mission to uncover the hidden depths of the

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Speaker 1: Denver International Airport. He discovered a vast laboratory underneath, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Now he's missing. That had just under four

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand views. I had an Ai seemingly Ai Joe

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Speaker 1: Rogan and seemingly AI Matt Rife talking about SeaWorld hiding

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Speaker 1: the world's last megaladon, Oh my God, that had jos

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Speaker 1: under nine hundred thousand views. And I had a seemingly

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Speaker 1: AI Elon Musk talking about flat Earth and I have

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Speaker 1: one eight million views, and it was one minute in

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Speaker 1: one second long.

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Speaker 2: Something that strikes me about this, like there's that undercurrent

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Speaker 2: of like the kind of guy who likes Elon Musk,

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Speaker 2: Joe Rogan, and Matt Rich. It's like, if you're if

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Speaker 2: that guy is you, you should be offended that they're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: stupid dumbasses who will believe absolutely anything. That is who

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Speaker 2: we're targeting. That is you, Like they're almost insulting you

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Speaker 2: to your face in a kind of way.

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Speaker 1: Again, I think you have different read on the situation than.

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Speaker 2: They do, Like are you a gullible sucker? So with

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Speaker 2: the current iteration of this program, are you still seeing

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Speaker 2: these the kind of conspiracy theory tiktoks that you saw

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Speaker 2: on the platform when the program was in beta.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's walk back and I'll explain, like what

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Speaker 1: was even showing up on the platform at the time.

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Speaker 1: What we were seeing was this entire niche of AI

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Speaker 1: generated conspiracy theory content on TikTok. And so it used

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Speaker 1: seemingly AI generated images sometimes mixed with like non AI

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Speaker 1: generated images and AI generated speech to text to like

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Speaker 1: pump out conspiracy theory content really high volumes. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: it performed really well in TikTok's algorithm. Right, We've been

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Speaker 1: seeing that for years. We know that that conspiracy theories

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Speaker 1: often perform well in these algorithms. That are engagement driven.

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Speaker 1: They're driven by watch time, and so these videos were

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Speaker 1: pretty formulaic a lot of the time. So they started

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Speaker 1: with some sort of unhinged statement at the top to

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Speaker 1: hook you in. So they'd be like the US government

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Speaker 1: discovered a vampire and they're keeping it a secret, or

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Speaker 1: scientists just discovered the last megaladon and they're keeping it

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Speaker 1: a secret. And they would use like, uh, they would

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Speaker 1: use AI generated images fast paced like super you know,

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Speaker 1: they would use like AI generated images like this very

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Speaker 1: fast paced editing style captions the speed to text, and

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Speaker 1: like spooky background music that really like hook you in

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Speaker 1: and like they stimulate like all of your senses at once,

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Speaker 1: and then they'd create this background story just essentially to

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Speaker 1: take up the remaining sixty seconds of the video, presumably

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Speaker 1: so that they could qualify for TikTok's creativity program at

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Speaker 1: the time. And so yeah, like I said, like they

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Speaker 1: were very unhinged statements at the top oftentimes, and I

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Speaker 1: really liked this bit. They would use like a fictional

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Speaker 1: researcher slash explorer character who had just discovered something, and

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Speaker 1: it was always a guy. It was never a woman,

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Speaker 1: because why would it be a woman. Women can't be explorers,

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Speaker 1: and they'd be like, I don't know. Like Eric Smith

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Speaker 1: was on an expedition to Antarctica just three weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and somehow he'd always ended up dead at the end.

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Speaker 1: So we were like, how do we know this?

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Speaker 2: Then they're really you're you're really bringing a lot of

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Speaker 2: like logical questions to this of like, then how do

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Speaker 2: we get this? How do we get the story out?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? How did we get the story out if he

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Speaker 1: died on the expedition? I just want to know. I'm

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Speaker 1: just asking questions. So I spent a lot of time

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Speaker 1: deep diving into these. Uh. And there were also content

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Speaker 1: creator gurus who were creating videos like teaching people how

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Speaker 1: to make these too, So I was watching their videos

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Speaker 1: learning how to make them.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think there are so many of them?

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Speaker 2: Are like about Godzilla or asteroids, almost sort of science

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Speaker 2: fiction y.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think to some extent they're a little bit

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Speaker 1: Again this is purely speculation. I think they're slightly safer

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Speaker 1: to play with, of like, mythical creatures are probably less

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Speaker 1: likely to get you in trouble with TikTok moderations, and

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Speaker 1: like a conspiracy theory about the Rothchild. I do sometimes

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Speaker 1: see ones that are, you know, more explicitly harmful, Like

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Speaker 1: we saw like a lot of like space is fake,

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Speaker 1: histories has been rewritten, history is fake, Flat Earth kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff, and that stuff definitely is harmful. But I

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Speaker 1: do think that a lot of like the mythical creature

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Speaker 1: stuff is kind of in that gray area where it's

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Speaker 1: it's not some super nefarious, clearly anti Semitic conspiracy theory,

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Speaker 1: right Like we're talking more about like mythical creatures. A

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Speaker 1: lot of the time the stories seem to reflect like

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Speaker 1: horror more than even like conspiracy theories. At times, they

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Speaker 1: use a lot of like horror tropes and trying to

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Speaker 1: evoke that like eerie feeling.

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Speaker 2: And even though we're talking about wacky horror stuff, usually

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Speaker 2: there is some undercurrent of like, oh, the government is

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Speaker 2: lying to you. You're not being told the full truth.

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Speaker 2: They know something they're not telling us, but I'm telling you.

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Speaker 1: And that's so appealing to us, right Like we want

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Speaker 1: to feel like we're in on some special knowledge. We

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Speaker 1: there's nothing we love more than feeling like we know

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Speaker 1: something that other people don't. So it's it's again, it's

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Speaker 1: very appealing to sorry, I think my cat just screamed.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear that the girls are fighting?

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Speaker 2: The girls are fighting? Maybe they maybe they're like chiming in.

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Speaker 2: They know something we don't.

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Speaker 1: They do, they're always planning. Conspiracy theories against me are conspiracies.

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Speaker 1: We love feeling like we're in on some special knowledge.

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Speaker 1: And that's, you know, one of many many reasons why

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories continue to be popular time and time again.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break eder back.

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Speaker 2: I should say a common tactic of these low effort

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Speaker 2: AI generated conspiracy theory tiktoks is making the content look

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Speaker 2: as if Joe Rogan is discussing it on his podcast.

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Speaker 2: They'll actually use AI generated content of Joe Rogan to

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Speaker 2: make it seem as if Rogan actually did discuss the

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Speaker 2: government covering up that they found an alien or a

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Speaker 2: vampire or whatever. But even Joe Rogan has not actually

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Speaker 2: entertained these conspiracy theories, and it's just another way to

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Speaker 2: credential whatever outlandish claim their content is making by visually

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Speaker 2: associating it with Joe Rogan. I did notice something else

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Speaker 2: about a couple of these videos that I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you have thoughts about what's going on but where

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Speaker 2: they have been designed to make it look like they

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Speaker 2: are specifically being discussed on Joe Rogan's podcast. So it's

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Speaker 2: like an image of Joe Rogan and it's like him

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Speaker 2: being like, oh, did you know that we're all gonna

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Speaker 2: die because scientists found an asteroid? Pull this up, and

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Speaker 2: then it makes it seem as though they've discussed this

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Speaker 2: on the podcast even though they have it as far

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Speaker 2: as I know.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, and quite cleverly, the captions are always put

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Speaker 1: right over his mouth so that you can't tell easily

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Speaker 1: how dubbed it is and how bad that dubbing is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was a really interesting part of this research that

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Speaker 1: I wasn't necessarily expecting, but so much of this content

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Speaker 1: was especially I got a lot of videos using Joe

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Speaker 1: Rogan where Joe Rogan did the exact same formula, right,

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Speaker 1: he'd be Like three weeks ago, a man called Blake

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Speaker 1: Dawson embarked on a mission to uncover hidden depths of

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Speaker 1: the Denver International Airport and he discovered a vast laboratory underneath.

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Speaker 1: That's like YadA, YadA, YadA, literally verbatim. I wrote that down. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like I got another one of Joe Rogan predicting that

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Speaker 1: that Texas was going to secede from the US starting

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Speaker 1: a civil war on May fourteenth. It is now May

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Speaker 1: twenty first, and that hasn't happened.

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Speaker 2: Date is come and gone. As far as I know,

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Speaker 2: Texas is still part of the United States last.

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Speaker 1: Time I checked. And one thing I also do I

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Speaker 1: want to stress too, because I didn't save this up

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Speaker 1: at the top, but like does provide some context, is

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Speaker 1: that these videos are going mega viral, like very very viral. Like.

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Speaker 1: We were seeing these types of videos with like, you know,

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty million views at times, you know, ten million

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Speaker 1: views on some just millions and millions of views. We

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Speaker 1: found one account that, yeah, there was one account that

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Speaker 1: actually only say this. So we identified a network of

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Speaker 1: seemingly affiliated accounts that we're all posting these exact same

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Speaker 1: type of AI generated conspiracy theory content, a lot of

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Speaker 1: megaladon content on this account for whatever, on these accounts,

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Speaker 1: and they were posting these videos in English, Spanish and French,

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Speaker 1: using like a translated version of the same user name

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Speaker 1: and the same profile picture, which also seemed AI generated.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to say for sure, but and so they

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Speaker 1: had received at the time that we looked at it,

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Speaker 1: over three hundred and forty two million views on this

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Speaker 1: account just posting this sort of content, and then the

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Speaker 1: Spanish language the Spanish language account had received three hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty nine million views.

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Speaker 2: Those numbers are shocking, but also what I know about

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Speaker 2: Spanish language content, I feel like people who are interested

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Speaker 2: in flooding digital spaces with junk, they are definitely going

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Speaker 2: to translate that junk into Spanish because they know we

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Speaker 2: don't have as many, you know, really good Spanish language

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Speaker 2: content platforms as we should, and so it's like there's

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Speaker 2: a gap of that and they're like, oh, we can

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Speaker 2: fill that gap with nonsense and make a clickbook.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think these videos are going viral?

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Speaker 3: Like they are?

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Speaker 1: Where to start? First of all, we love a good story,

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Speaker 1: and we love a good conspiracy story, like these are

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Speaker 1: candy for our brains. We love mythical creatures. We love

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Speaker 1: to think that, you know, the government's hiding some sort

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Speaker 1: of knowledge from us, like there's a reason why Men

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Speaker 1: in Black is still a classic movie. Like, we fundamentally

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Speaker 1: love these stories. And then you combine it with like this,

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Speaker 1: this kind of attention hijacking approach to creating content where

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Speaker 1: we know that that sort of content plays really well

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Speaker 1: on these algorithms where you're just trying to get watch time,

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Speaker 1: and the more people watch it, the more that that

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Speaker 1: video will be recommended to other people and it'll then

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Speaker 1: go viral. And then on top of that, you're able

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Speaker 1: to just create such a high volume of this content.

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Speaker 1: It's really easy to pump this content out because you

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Speaker 1: don't need to go create your own art. You can

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Speaker 1: just get like an AI to do it. You don't

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Speaker 1: need to read your own text, like do you know

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Speaker 1: how long it takes me when I film one of

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Speaker 1: my videos to get all the words right like and

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Speaker 1: get my delivery right Like. That's time that you don't

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Speaker 1: need to do, Like you know, No, you don't need

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Speaker 1: to spend that anymore. You can just plug it into

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Speaker 1: a speak you're a text to speech software, so you

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Speaker 1: can really crank this stuff out quite quickly. And I

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Speaker 1: think that then you can just put a lot out

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Speaker 1: and see what hits.

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Speaker 2: When it comes to AI, we talk a lot about

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Speaker 2: the obvious dangerous examples of the ways that AI can

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Speaker 2: disrupt our democracy, but there's also a real danger to

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Speaker 2: the seemingly more benign AI generated content too, because it

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Speaker 2: just makes our Internet landscape worse, more stupid, and less trustworthy.

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Speaker 2: And when it's financially incentivized, not to mention easy and

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Speaker 2: fast to crank out at scale, it's not really that

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Speaker 2: difficult to see how it gets us away from the

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Speaker 2: kind of Internet we actually want, which is not one

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Speaker 2: full of low effort AI generated lives, scams and garbage. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: part of me wonders if that's really the role that

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Speaker 2: we're seeing AI being utilized for here. It's just you know,

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Speaker 2: the speed at which you can crank these out, the

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Speaker 2: ease at which you can crank these out, and you

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Speaker 2: can just really just flood the space and see what

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Speaker 2: happens to hit that virality.

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Speaker 1: Mark, I'm definitely nervous about it. I'm very concerned about

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Speaker 1: the role of AI here in just its ability to

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Speaker 1: create volume, and I'm concerned about the combination of AI

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Speaker 1: plus algorithms that prioritize watch time over the actual originality

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Speaker 1: and like high quality sure of the content. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to see us in a position where like we're

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Speaker 1: just flooded by low quality, inaccurate misinformation. That's just like

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Speaker 1: brain candy. That makes me. That makes me nervous because

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Speaker 1: a lot of the times, like I get asked why

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Speaker 1: this sort of content is concerning, Like why is it

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Speaker 1: bad if like you know, the US like has vampires

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Speaker 1: and like it's clearly silly. But I am worried about

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Speaker 1: more so at scale, what it means to be in

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Speaker 1: digital spaces that are fundamentally prioritizing, like not just prioritizing, incentivizing,

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Speaker 1: financially incentivizing content that is low quality and easy to

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Speaker 1: pump out.

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Speaker 2: In what ways do you feel that TikTok's Uh, this

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Speaker 2: program is incentivizing junk like this, Well, so.

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Speaker 1: If you're paying creators, if you're if you're financially rewarding

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Speaker 1: people for content based on how viral it is, Uh,

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Speaker 1: the end result, it makes sense, is that you're going

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Speaker 1: to get a lot of people just trying to pump

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Speaker 1: out as much content that will go as viral as possible,

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Speaker 1: rather than like actually funding the creators who do their own,

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Speaker 1: you know, their own original, high quality work, because I

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Speaker 1: do want to see them funded, of course, I do,

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Speaker 1: Like I want the platforms to pay the creators who

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Speaker 1: are the backbone of the of the platforms like TikTok

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Speaker 1: would not be good if it weren't for all the

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Speaker 1: creators out there making that content. I would like to

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Speaker 1: see them, to see them compensated, but I want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we are we have systems in place

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Speaker 1: so that they are the ones being compensated and not

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Speaker 1: people that are just flooding the feeds with sabertooth tiger

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 2: The reason why I liked TikTok to begin with is

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Speaker 2: that I felt like they were my people, and that

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Speaker 2: the people it was people who wanted to go deep

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Speaker 2: on an issue, and it's like everything you ever wanted

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Speaker 2: to know about this specific thing. If that is your

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Speaker 2: dam rock with me and I'll tell you we'll get

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Speaker 2: into than nitty gritty minutia. But getting into the nitty

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Speaker 2: gritty minutia. If something takes research, it takes time. You

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Speaker 2: can't just plug it into an AI system and have

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Speaker 2: it poof create create that kind of content. It really takes,

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Speaker 2: As you know, it takes a lot of time, and

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Speaker 2: I worry that it's so much easier to rather than

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Speaker 2: reward that person who's putting so much time and effort

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Speaker 2: into making the thoughtful, deep dive content that we all love.

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Speaker 2: It's so much easier to just throw money at people

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Speaker 2: who have completely gamified this via AI just flogging the

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Speaker 2: space with junk And I don't know, I like you,

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Speaker 2: I worry about the what the what that says about

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Speaker 2: our larger information ecosystem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is concerning. I think it's also presenting like

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Speaker 1: a good challenge that we could potentially, you know, figure

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Speaker 1: out how to climb together. Like I'm trying to be

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Speaker 1: inspirational here. I think that there is an opportunity here

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Speaker 1: to figure out what it looks like to create a

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Speaker 1: better system, Like we know what the end result is

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Speaker 1: of just like simply prioritizing just engagement over all else,

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Speaker 1: and so like what are we going to do to

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Speaker 1: try to also incentivize accurate, high quality information.

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Speaker 2: One question I do have is is this against TikTok's

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Speaker 2: terms of service or rules in some way? Like I

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Speaker 2: my understanding is that TikTok has rules that prohibit misleading

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Speaker 2: or inaccurate content, But it seems like they're allowing not

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Speaker 2: just allowing this kind of content on their platform, but

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Speaker 2: allowing creators to be be profiting off of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm a little bit confused on this one.

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Speaker 1: So here's what I know. So I know that we

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Speaker 1: published this in February, and a TikTok spokesperson told Axios

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Speaker 1: in late March that conspiracy theories are not eligible to

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Speaker 1: earn money or to be recommended in for you feeds

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Speaker 1: on TikTok. I have gone since then and looked and

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Speaker 1: found plenty of the exact same right formula of conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories that are just over a minute long, using that

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Speaker 1: AI generated text to speech and the spooky music and

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Speaker 1: the editing and the and the images like all of that,

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Speaker 1: And I've seen videos that were posted since then that

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Speaker 1: seems a little inconsistent. The way they've talked about their

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Speaker 1: newest update to the community guidelines around conspiracy theories doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to reflect that. So they said that conspiracy theories

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Speaker 1: that are unfounded and claim that certain events or situations

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Speaker 1: are carried out by covert or powerful groups such as quote,

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Speaker 1: the government or a secret society, are not eligible for

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Speaker 1: for you page recommendation. I don't know where a lot

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Speaker 1: of these fall on that. It's a pretty it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's just unclear exactly what TikTok is enforcing and what

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Speaker 1: they're allowing to be monetized.

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Speaker 2: And something we've seen time and time again is that

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Speaker 2: the people who create this, especially if they're doing it

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Speaker 2: for profit, are so good at creating content that really

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Speaker 2: skirts that gray area and staying just on the other

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Speaker 2: side of that line to keep them on the platform

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Speaker 2: and to keep the money coming in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So the conspiracy theories about like the unfounded that

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Speaker 1: are unfounded and claim about certain events being carried out

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Speaker 1: by secret powerful groups, that's FYP ineligible. What's not allowed

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Speaker 1: on TikTok are conspiracy theories that name and attack an individual.

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Speaker 2: Oh so it seems like it seems like it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be that hard to create content that would be eligible,

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Speaker 2: but still does the same kind of thing in spirit,

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Speaker 2: just not in specificity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, you know, because like the video that I

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Speaker 1: talked about with an AI or seemingly AI Joe Rogan

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Speaker 1: predicting that Texas will secede from the US, starting a

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Speaker 1: second civil war on May fourteenth, which would then lead

434
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: out lead to an all out nuclear war. That was

435
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: uploaded on April fifth, and it has over eight hundred

436
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: thousand views. It's a concerning video to be making a

437
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: claim and to be using such a well known figure

438
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: that a lot of people do get their information from

439
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: to claim that you have like special knowledge from a

440
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: time traveler, claiming that you're aware of imminent civil war? Like,

441
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: where does that fall within these guidelines that we've set up?

442
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: Where does that fall within the guidelines that TikTok is

443
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: set up?

444
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: And I gotta say not for nothing. If I'm Joe Rogan,

445
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 2: I would be so insulted that this is the kind

446
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 2: of content that people think they can plausibly associate with

447
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: me unrelated to this whole conversation. I would really be

448
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: taking a step back if I were him and be like, wow,

449
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: people think that I would be giving them content about

450
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 2: cryptids and stuff, and like that's what people would associate

451
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:00,479
Speaker 2: with me, And people will be like, oh yeah, I

452
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: buy that. I would be so insulted and I would

453
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: be taking a step back to deeply reflect on the

454
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: kind of content I'm known for.

455
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: I think you and Joe Rogan might be different in

456
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: certain fundamental ways. Bridget.

457
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: I mean, like when the whole Joe Rogan the last

458
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 2: time that we talked about Joe Rogan, one of the

459
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: points I made was like we like I'm not saying

460
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 2: I'm such a great podcaster, but like, come on that

461
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 2: it does.

462
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: But Okay, the issue though of like taking a celebrity figure,

463
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: especially someone that is like trusted by a bunch of

464
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 1: people straight men across America, uh and you know, altering

465
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: them with this AI voice and putting this information in

466
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: their mouths. Like where I want to see more much

467
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: more of a conversation happening from TikTok but also from

468
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: other platforms about like where does this stand within policy?

469
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,239
Speaker 1: Because TikTok's community guidelines only prohibit this sort of like

470
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: misleading AI generated content of a public figure who is

471
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: being degraded or harassed, engaging in criminal or anti social behavior,

472
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: taking a position on political issues, commercial products or a

473
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: matter of public importance, or being politically endorsed or condemned.

474
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: So the policy doesn't really seem to account for AI

475
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: generated content of jer Rogan claiming that a time traveler

476
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: predicted Civil war.

477
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it really exposes some gaps in

478
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: policies that these people are exploiting to make a quick book.

479
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean the more that we're having these

480
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: conversations around AI, right, we're learning more ways that it's

481
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: going to be used that maybe we hadn't thought of before.

482
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: And like a lot of the conversations that I saw,

483
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: especially early on around AI and like deep fakes and

484
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: deep fakes of celebrities or politicians, was like, oh my god,

485
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: they're going to deep fake world leaders and say that

486
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: like they're launching nuclear war and it's going to start

487
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: nuclear war.

488
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: Right.

489
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: It was like this really high stakes kind of discussions

490
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: about how deep fakes can affect us. It's like, okay,

491
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: but what about like really low effort deep I'm using

492
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: some deep fakes because it's using just regular video of

493
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: him with an AI generated voice. What about that? And

494
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: like how that affects regular people and not like high

495
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: up politicians, Like how about that? Like I just want

496
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: to see this this evolution in our conversations around AI.

497
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something that I really see a lot of

498
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: where so often and I get it, like I don't

499
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: think it's it's wrong, but so often we're talking about

500
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: high level deep fakes, so we're not talking about things

501
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: like low effort cheap fakes, which I think are arguably

502
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: easier to make, and we're talking about like, oh, how

503
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: will it disrupt this high life level system, which is

504
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: important to talk about, but we also should be talking

505
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: about how is how might it disrupt the thing that

506
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 2: most people are coming into into contact with every day,

507
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 2: which is the way our digital ecosystem or information ecosystem.

508
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I think the conversation needs to

509
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: have both of like how it is impacting people at

510
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: this high level and also the thing in their hands

511
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: that they are most likely to be coming into contact

512
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: with these kinds of of inaccurate content by Does that

513
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: make sense?

514
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? Of course. Do you have any idea how many

515
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: people have fallen victim to those like cheap fake Taylor

516
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: Swift is selling cooking were ads?

517
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: Yes, it's everywhere and like and I I don't think

518
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: it should be just on the individual to have to

519
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: figure out like, well, is Taylor Swift actually endorsing this

520
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: cooking ad or whatever? Like like we it's clearly a

521
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: bigger institutional problem that is not going to be solved

522
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: by it just only individuals being more savvy.

523
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's an issue that we run into a

524
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: lot of the time with conversations around media literacy, where

525
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: like media literacy, digital literacy, they're amazing, They're great. I

526
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: highly encourage them in you know, all aspects of education

527
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: for all ages. But there are a lot of the

528
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: time only going to reach some of the most privileged

529
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: in society, and you're going to need to be constantly

530
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: evolving as like digital spaces evolve too, so you're always

531
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: in this game of ketchup. And it's also fundamentally just

532
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: putting the burden on users who a lot of the

533
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: time straight up don't have the time to go learn

534
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: how to spot you know, gan like generated images, like

535
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 1: they don't know how to do that, and that's fully okay.

536
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: They have lives like that burden should not be on consumers.

537
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: That burdens should be on the platforms that are hosting

538
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: that content and a lot of time profiting off.

539
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: It more After a quick break, let's get right back

540
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 3: into it.

541
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: Now. Like anything else, this is just a hustle. It's

542
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: a grift. People are doing it because it makes them quick,

543
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: easy money, and they can also make money from purporting

544
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: to teach other people how to do the grift as

545
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: well the grift within the grift. Do you see coordination

546
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: with these accounts, Like I know that you in the

547
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: piece you figured out that some of these accounts were

548
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: sort of associated with each other. Do you think that

549
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: these folks are like back channeling and trying to tell

550
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: others like, well, here's how you do it, here's how

551
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 2: you can make these kinds of videos, here's what works,

552
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: here's the communities that you should be targeting that kind

553
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: of thing.

554
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's a whole cottage industry around this sort

555
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: of content farming a little bit. It's what I was

556
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,479
Speaker 1: seeing was you would have these accounts going viral on

557
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: TikTok with a decent number of followers, and they would

558
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: have a link, oftentimes to a discord server in their

559
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: TikTok bio. And so I started joining these discord servers

560
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: and watching them talk about how they create this content.

561
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: And typically the way I saw it be run was

562
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: that there was like one dude running the discord server. Again,

563
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: haven't seen a woman do it yet. I hope a

564
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: girl boss gets in on it, but I haven't seen

565
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: it yet. And so one dude's running the discord server,

566
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: he'll maybe make like YouTube videos about how to make

567
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,239
Speaker 1: this content, and like weekly videos like on like the

568
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: next hot niche to get in Like maybe it's conspiracy theories,

569
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: Maybe it's horror, maybe it's history, maybe it's top three videos.

570
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: Maybe it's like men's motivational workout content, or just like

571
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: men with deep voices saying motivational quotes and their team

572
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: seeing people how to do it. And they often have

573
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: like a premium level of some sorts. You could pay

574
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: them like seventy bucks a month or something to go

575
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: and be their protege, and like they just give you

576
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: one on one feedback a lot of the time, or

577
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: like special access to courses and stuff. And then there's

578
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: a back and forth in these communities where you have

579
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: these discord servers of people sharing tips on like how

580
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: to make content, like or what sort of content's performing well,

581
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: what sort of rate of like how much money are

582
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: you guys getting per million views for each type of content?

583
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: How can I switch my content so that it targets

584
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: a wealthier demographic. That sort of discourse I saw. I

585
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 1: saw a lot of the time in these communities.

586
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: It's so interesting to me how there's a component of

587
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 2: it that's like, oh, if you pay me, I'll teach you.

588
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 2: Like there's always there's always a little bit of an

589
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: overlap with like a life coaching scam or like an

590
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: mL like there's always a little something of that in there,

591
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean. I mean, the grift

592
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: just keeps on giving, the grift within the grift.

593
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: The grift on grift on grift on gript. There's like

594
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: this affiliate marketing level to it, where it was like,

595
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: use this AI service and then if you get people

596
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: to use your affiliate code, you'll get X money. And

597
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: so there are a lot of layers to it. I

598
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: think that when we're dealing with communities that are susceptible

599
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: to messaging about get rich quick, you're going to inevitably

600
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: end up with a lot of different sorts of grifts

601
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: that could emerge.

602
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: Throw some supplements in there, like throw some like ough.

603
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: The grift is deep.

604
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: As you said, the grift runs deep.

605
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: So we were talking a bit about thinking about how

606
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 2: this works in a high level way. But I guess

607
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 2: I'm wondering, you know, twenty twenty four is a pretty

608
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: big election year, not just in the United States globally.

609
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: I think more countries than ever before in history have

610
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: elections this year. I'm wondering, what do you see as

611
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 2: at stake for all of this as we head into

612
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: such an important global election year.

613
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: Proof Immediately my blood pressure spikes. Like see a lot

614
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: of these videos weren't inherently what you would say, like

615
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: political using airports, because you know everything's political, but like

616
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: you know, government's hiding a vampire, isn't really taking a

617
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: partisanside necessarily. I did see some that were overtly political,

618
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 1: like one that was like Biden is you know, controlling

619
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: the water or something, and stuff like that. I think

620
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: what I'm worried about is the system at large, Like

621
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: We're coming into this this election year, and now we

622
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 1: have a whole group of people who were really skilled

623
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: at cranking out AI generated content that is inaccurate, and

624
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: we know what performs well, we know that you can

625
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: like flood feeds with this stuff, and so I'm very

626
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: worried about how easy it is to manufacture and this

627
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: content and how easy it is to make it really engaging.

628
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 2: So for folks who are listening and are thinking, like, well,

629
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 2: I use TikTok, but what the heck am I supposed

630
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 2: to do about this? Is there anything that you would like?

631
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: Is there a role for the regular TikTok user that

632
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: they should be playing in combating this not falling for

633
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: it just creating the kind of Internet ecosystem that we

634
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 2: actually would want to live in.

635
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the best piece of advice

636
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: I can give specifically for this sort of content is

637
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: like a strict non engagement policy. If you see it,

638
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: and you see Joe Rogan is there and it's bad

639
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: dubbed and maybe he's having a conversation with another like

640
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: badly dubbed Jordan Peterson or whatever, that's a good time

641
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: to like report it as authentic content or you know,

642
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: misinformation if it is misinformation, and like scroll class or

643
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: like say you're not interested in it. I think that

644
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: one of the best things that we can do is

645
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 1: just show that we aren't engaging and go about your

646
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: life and maybe maybe go outside, maybe touching your ass,

647
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,479
Speaker 1: maybe smell a flower, gives someone a hug.

648
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 2: So that is great advice for individuals. But what about

649
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: institutions like TikTok, Like one thing I imagine they could

650
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: do is provide a little more transparency around this content,

651
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: Like why shouldn't we know whether or not the thing

652
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 2: that we are being shown is making whoever posted it money.

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00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 1: I should say too, it's like impossible to know which

654
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,479
Speaker 1: of these are monetized. I don't have that insight from

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00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: TikTok of like which accounts monetized versus which isn't. But

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00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: they all, I mean, they're all still fitting all of

657
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: the requirements that we described in that February article that

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00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: indicate that they're being used by creators looking to monetize

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00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: their content. But I would love from TikTok to potentially

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00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: a way to know, you know, I would like some

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00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: more transparency on that front, to know what's being monetized,

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00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: how are they enforcing it? Right, Like what does that

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00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: actually look like? Because they say that for the Creator

664
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: Rewards program, all videos are before they're actually monetized, before

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00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: they begin that process of being monetized, they are approved

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00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: by somebody, And how strict is that? Like what does

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00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: that actually look like? How many videos are being rejected?

668
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: And like on what grounds? I want a lot more

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00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: transparency from them around the entire system of monetization that

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00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: they are creating.

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00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 2: And I think we deserve that, Like, wh when I

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00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 2: am making a podcast, I legally have to say when

673
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: I am being paid this up to say something and

674
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: it's an ad and when not? Right, Like we deserve

675
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: to know what does the financial situation. Look like from

676
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: the person who is telling me something, are they just

677
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 2: telling me because they're making that content and they like it.

678
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: Are they telling me that because they've just been monetized

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00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 2: in some way, Like, I don't know, I don't I

680
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: don't think that that's a bridge too far to expect

681
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: a little transparency behind.

682
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: No. I mean, I would argue that we deserve much

683
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 1: more than that. I think that the bar is on

684
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: the ground. But I do think that we deserve to

685
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: know when there is a very clear financial incentive for

686
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,439
Speaker 1: certain types of content. You know, is this person making

687
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: flat earth content because they are genuinely a flat earther

688
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: and like they believe it with their full chest, or

689
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: are they making it because they know that it'll get

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00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: millions of views and then they'll get money. And like

691
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: that's a big difference, And I do want to know

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00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: where that where that line is, Like, I just I

693
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: want to know more about because I mean, you can

694
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: never know people's motivation. There are still lots of grifters

695
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: even when financial motives are very clear. But I still

696
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: think that that transparency is a very good starting.

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00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Abby, thank you so much for being here. It

698
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: is always a pleasure.

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00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: I literally love nothing more. Let's hang out.

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00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 2: I'll see you in Berlin. Hopefully a little more sober

701
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 2: this time, absolutely not, hopefully more drunk.

702
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: Hopefully if we're doing it right, less sober.

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00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 2: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check

704
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 2: out our mark store at teangody dot com slash Store.

705
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

706
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: just want to say hi, You can reach us at

707
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 2: Hello at tegody dot com. You can also find transcripts

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00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: for today's episode at teng Goody dot com. There Are

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00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget

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00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 2: cod It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative edited

711
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari

712
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael was our

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00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 2: contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want

714
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 2: to help us grow, rate and review us.

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00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 3: On Apple Podcasts.

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00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

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00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.