Speaker 1: Last summer, I was on vacation in New England when
Speaker 1: I got a phone call from a number I didn't recognize.
Speaker 1: I figured it was spam. I checked the message a
Speaker 1: little while later, expecting to hear something about my car warranty. Laura,
Speaker 1: less call over your letter about Sarah. It was Sarah's dad.
Speaker 1: I called him back and we spoke for about half
Speaker 1: an hour. He didn't want to be recorded, but he
Speaker 1: was okay to talk. I was finally on the phone
Speaker 1: with someone who could tell me about Sarah's past because
Speaker 1: he had been a part of it. He told me
Speaker 1: he was seventy two years old and a Vietnam Vette.
Speaker 1: He and Sarah's mom were married in May of three.
Speaker 1: They divorced less than two years later, when Sarah was
Speaker 1: just a few months old. It seemed like a messy breakup.
Speaker 1: The more we talked, the more I got the feeling
Speaker 1: that I had opened up a wound that had been
Speaker 1: festering for decades. He told me something I'd heard before,
Speaker 1: that he wasn't around much and Sarah's childhood. He worked
Speaker 1: as a long haul trucker, so he was gone a lot,
Speaker 1: but he said he didn't feel much like anyone wanted
Speaker 1: him around either. As our conversation went on, he toggled
Speaker 1: between anger and tears. I asked him to describe good
Speaker 1: memories of Sarah as a young girl, like birthday parties
Speaker 1: or trips to the zoo. He didn't offer any. I
Speaker 1: asked if it had gotten together with his daughter much
Speaker 1: as an adult. No. Again, he did help her buy
Speaker 1: a car, the one Christine told me about. Sarah got
Speaker 1: it when she was dating her son Zach. Sarah had
Speaker 1: even shown her father the engagement ring. Later, he texted
Speaker 1: me a few pictures. In one Sarah is five years old,
Speaker 1: a red and white bow clipped to her short hair,
Speaker 1: and another she looks like she's in her late teens
Speaker 1: or early twenties. She's leaning in toward her dad. They're
Speaker 1: both smiling. Sarah's dad called me one other time. A
Speaker 1: few months later. I had texted him an easy question,
Speaker 1: how do you say de Lashman? He called to pronounce
Speaker 1: it for me. This time I sensed more of a
Speaker 1: smoldering pain than anything else. His voice cracked as he
Speaker 1: told me that Sarah was his daughter and he loved her,
Speaker 1: and he thought she needed psychiatric care. He knew she
Speaker 1: had gone on television. He told me he'd like to
Speaker 1: sit down for a private talk with Dr Phil. Just
Speaker 1: before we hung up, he said he wanted to ask
Speaker 1: me something a buddy of his had mentioned seeing a
Speaker 1: magazine article on Sarah. She's just a girl from the Midwest.
Speaker 1: He said, why does anyone care about what she did?
Speaker 1: Why is her story worth national attention? It was a
Speaker 1: fair question to ask, what is it about Sarah's story
Speaker 1: that speaks to anyone other than the people who once
Speaker 1: trusted her? Why does it matter? I told him for
Speaker 1: the sake of her family, her victims, and even Sarah herself.
Speaker 1: It was a question I would try to answer. I'm
Speaker 1: Laura Beale. You're listening to Sympathy Pains. This is the
Speaker 1: sixth and final episode Justice. January one, two thousand twenty
Speaker 1: was a chilly, windy Tuesday in Highland, Illinois. It was
Speaker 1: early in the morning. An officer, David Brynes of the
Speaker 1: Highland Police Department, was keeping warm in his squad car.
Speaker 1: He was parked around the corner from where Sarah lived
Speaker 1: with her mom. By then she was thirty five years old.
Speaker 1: It was a single story house. I believe it was
Speaker 1: a two or three bedroom with a basement and then
Speaker 1: finished basement. I went down there air with it was
Speaker 1: at least ten FBI agents. He was waiting for the
Speaker 1: signal from the FBI agents to go in. We've been
Speaker 1: preparing for this for about a week. Had been driving
Speaker 1: by her residence. We knew that she worked at an
Speaker 1: Amazon distribution plant nearby, and we believe she also had
Speaker 1: a separate job here at our Walmart, so we were
Speaker 1: trying to establish when she would be home. Her mother
Speaker 1: was home too. I've heard all kinds of descriptions of
Speaker 1: Sarah's relationship with her mom, from loving to codependent. I see,
Speaker 1: and I can't say which of them is true. Maybe
Speaker 1: each of them contains elements that are. Sarah's aunt told
Speaker 1: me in a text that their mother had been killed
Speaker 1: in a car crash when they were teenagers, and they
Speaker 1: were pretty much on their own after that. She said
Speaker 1: Sarah's mom wasn't the kind to ask for help. Once,
Speaker 1: when her car was broadsided, she searched through an auto
Speaker 1: salvage yard, found a door that would fit and replaced
Speaker 1: it herself. Off. She thought her sister had a baby
Speaker 1: for companionship, as a kind of escape from her joyless marriage.
Speaker 1: On the Dr Phil show. Sarah's mother had been in
Speaker 1: the audience. When the cameras turned to her, she said
Speaker 1: she wasn't aware of what Sarah had been up to
Speaker 1: all these years, that she didn't even know that her
Speaker 1: daughter had. Her nursing license were evoked in multiple states.
Speaker 1: That January morning, an FBI agent knocked on the door
Speaker 1: and showed the search warrant to both of them. Officer
Speaker 1: Brian's got the all clear to go inside. When he
Speaker 1: walked in the door, he saw boxes and clutter everywhere.
Speaker 1: A lot of the boxes were just an open boxes,
Speaker 1: like they had ordered something from Amazon and retrieved it
Speaker 1: and just set it in there and never opened it.
Speaker 1: They had at least four small dogs. What I remember
Speaker 1: most was the smell, overwhelming inch of pet urine. He
Speaker 1: went into the kitchen, the counters were just it was
Speaker 1: just filled with clutter and junk, old food. I mean,
Speaker 1: you couldn't really see the kitchen table because it was
Speaker 1: buried under stuff. Just it seemed like anything that had
Speaker 1: ever came into that house stayed in that house. Officers
Speaker 1: spent the next few hours searching the house for evidence.
Speaker 1: The triathlon bikes were in the garage in the basement.
Speaker 1: Officer Brian's found the racing bibs should save from the
Speaker 1: charity events, fourteen items of evidence were collected and seized
Speaker 1: from the residents. I know at some point during our search,
Speaker 1: Sarah was taken from the residents up to the Highland
Speaker 1: Police Department and she was interviewed. I tried for months
Speaker 1: to obtain a tape of this interview. I wanted to
Speaker 1: hear Sarah telling her own story in her own voice,
Speaker 1: but the US Justice Department said no. On March third, twenty,
Speaker 1: Sarah was officially charged with eight felony counts, including wire
Speaker 1: fraud and mail fraud. She was also charged with aggravated
Speaker 1: identity theft from using her mother's credit card to order
Speaker 1: one of the bikes. The other bike had been donated
Speaker 1: to her by y s C, the Young Survival Coalition
Speaker 1: for Women with Breast cancer. Prosecutors said she had fraudulently
Speaker 1: received financial aid from Camp Summit. I found out about
Speaker 1: the charges from a phone call. Hi, Laura is this calling? Wow? Okay,
Speaker 1: So I just heard that Sarah was invited. I'm just
Speaker 1: shaking time, just waiting here from Bethany. She's in the meeting,
Speaker 1: but I just cannot wait to share this with her.
Speaker 1: It's been just about a year to the day that
Speaker 1: she was living at our house with my parents and
Speaker 1: we discovered this, and I just I on without words.
Speaker 1: A year earlier, Liz had wanted to help Sarah, feeling
Speaker 1: an overwhelming sympathy for a dying young woman. Now Liz
Speaker 1: was in a very different place. You know, after twenty years,
Speaker 1: this woman who has defrauded countless hundreds of people, her
Speaker 1: own family, to see it come to an end of
Speaker 1: justice is just such a good feeling. Three months later, Lukewisler,
Speaker 1: the federal prosecutor, arrived early in a brightly lit a St.
Speaker 1: Louis courtroom. A short time later, Sarah entered with her attorney.
Speaker 1: She was in a mass like all of us. I
Speaker 1: think that she had her hair pulled back. I mean,
Speaker 1: she was dressed for court son a in a pretty
Speaker 1: conservative way. The judge came in and spoke to her.
Speaker 1: She is advised of different rights. She is also advised
Speaker 1: of the charges against her. She responded that she was
Speaker 1: aware of the charges. I think that she she was
Speaker 1: soft spoken and and her voice was a little bit shaky,
Speaker 1: which you know, kind of made it seem like she
Speaker 1: might be nervous, or or just kind of the gravity
Speaker 1: of what was happening, might be sinking in. The public
Speaker 1: couldn't be there because of COVID, but could listen in
Speaker 1: on a phone line. Liz and Bethany dialed in. When
Speaker 1: it was over, I gave them a call and asked
Speaker 1: them what they were doing while all this was going on.
Speaker 1: Bethany listened at home. I was sitting here on my
Speaker 1: couch with my eyes closed, trying to imagine her facial expression.
Speaker 1: She didn't feel any sense of finality. She thought Sarah
Speaker 1: would just revel in the attention. She thinks she's going
Speaker 1: to show up at this courthouse today, she's gonna get
Speaker 1: her fifteen minutes of fame again. And she's already onto
Speaker 1: the next thing. At the beginning, when they're talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, if you've been under psychic evaluation, if you
Speaker 1: are you on drugs, I'm just waiting for that Sarah
Speaker 1: moment where she just slipped away again. She's going to
Speaker 1: say something, She's going to manipulate this to benefit her.
Speaker 1: And then at the very end, I was just hearing
Speaker 1: this monotone voice that you notice when he said, well,
Speaker 1: we'll need to confiscate your passport. She said, okay as
Speaker 1: she was exhaling, and I thought that was really weird. Interesting.
Speaker 1: I did pick up on that, Bethany. That's what I
Speaker 1: was thinking was she's already coached this in her head,
Speaker 1: that all she's going to say is yes, I do, Yes,
Speaker 1: I do, Yes, I do. Because she's trying so hard
Speaker 1: to stay in that whatever that personality, that mindset, or
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I would have loved to see her
Speaker 1: face to face, just for her to know that me
Speaker 1: and Liz aren't giving this up. I asked how they
Speaker 1: would feel if the case settles and there's no trial.
Speaker 1: Bethany thinks for a second and then isn't even sure
Speaker 1: she wants Sarah to go in front of a jury.
Speaker 1: It doesn't get to be told by her sitting on
Speaker 1: a stand and crying and trying to win people over.
Speaker 1: So honestly, at this moment, I don't even know that
Speaker 1: I would care. A few months later, Sarah was back
Speaker 1: at the federal courthouse. She entered her plea, her guilty plea.
Speaker 1: On October two thousand twenty. She pled guilty to four
Speaker 1: counts of wire fraud and one kind of mail frond
Speaker 1: Sarah appeared in court for the last time on January nine,
Speaker 1: two thousand twenty one. The nation was deeply mired in
Speaker 1: the pandemic, so everyone participated virtually on a checkerboard of
Speaker 1: screens that we've all gotten used to. She was at
Speaker 1: a table, just kind of a standard conference table, and
Speaker 1: she was a little bit further back from the screen.
Speaker 1: Luke Wiseler worked at a deal with Sarah's attorney. He
Speaker 1: asked for a reduced sentence in exchange for a guilty
Speaker 1: plea on five of the eight charges. This is a
Speaker 1: case where on paper, the dollars at stake are very minimal,
Speaker 1: so minimal in fact that in another situation everyone might
Speaker 1: have settled for probation. But this was hardly an ordinary case.
Speaker 1: From our perspective, some amount of prison time was important.
Speaker 1: The judge asked the victims to read their statements. I
Speaker 1: wanted the judge to to know that you know, these
Speaker 1: are organizations that are in the world to do such good,
Speaker 1: and that the defendant in this case violated almost every
Speaker 1: aspect of them. Bethany went first. In a halting voice,
Speaker 1: she said she wanted to represent the disability community. Sacred
Speaker 1: communities like Camp Summit. I wasn't allowed to take the
Speaker 1: statement as she read it in court, but asked her
Speaker 1: to read what she had written later that day over
Speaker 1: the phone. She started by talking about Sarah at Camp
Speaker 1: Summit when Bethany was a counselor. Sarah that I knew
Speaker 1: at camp was very kind. She was thoughtful, giggly, friendly
Speaker 1: and intelligent. Sarah told me that she had zero mobility.
Speaker 1: The typical wheelchair transfer or assistance only requires one, maybe
Speaker 1: two caregivers. Sarah was unique and that she was difficult
Speaker 1: to lift because of her stature and her lack of movement.
Speaker 1: It took three of us for the transfers. She told
Speaker 1: the court how their friendship blossomed after camp was over.
Speaker 1: At one point, Sarah told me she'd consider moving in
Speaker 1: with me so we could be roommates and she could
Speaker 1: help me with the child and vice first I could
Speaker 1: help her. For a moment, I truly considered it. I
Speaker 1: considered her a very good friend at the time, and
Speaker 1: I thought she understood that life is it's perfect. And
Speaker 1: the day she learned the truth, she got up out
Speaker 1: of the wheelchair and walked away into a van, never
Speaker 1: to be seen again. The grief that I felt in
Speaker 1: that moment from the grief that we have victims continue
Speaker 1: to speak it as if someone's died, the fields, as
Speaker 1: though we're watching a car crash. We know it's about
Speaker 1: to happen, but we can't stop it. We also know
Speaker 1: that we have to stick around and pick up there
Speaker 1: is pieces. Victim Anthony asked the judge if she could
Speaker 1: read a statement written by Aaron Johnson, who wasn't in
Speaker 1: court that day. My parents cared for her, for Sarah
Speaker 1: as a disabled person more than once. The second time
Speaker 1: that had happened, she was supposedly paralyzed from a cancerous
Speaker 1: tumor in her spine. No, but I realized almost eleven
Speaker 1: years later, there was so much that was fake. She
Speaker 1: was full of fake diseases, births, deaths, friendships, family members
Speaker 1: who weren't real. When I first found out that was real,
Speaker 1: I questioned everyone in my life. I was devastated someone
Speaker 1: who was supposed to be my best friend I had
Speaker 1: taken my life, wasted my time, and made me feel
Speaker 1: so dumb for eleven, almost twelve years, She wrote about
Speaker 1: her lingering pain. I feel pains for those who gave
Speaker 1: time and money too, gives her things she didn't need
Speaker 1: making their struggles seem easy, as if they did not run.
Speaker 1: Bethany ended by telling the judge that even with all
Speaker 1: that Aaron had been through, Aaron was still everything that
Speaker 1: Sarah was not. Every time that I've approached her with
Speaker 1: my pain, She's welcomed it with open arms and absorbed
Speaker 1: it with unconditional love. We're asking today, but these communities
Speaker 1: find justice so that people like me can go back
Speaker 1: out into the world and love people back the same
Speaker 1: way that Aaron does. Then it was Liz's turn. Here.
Speaker 1: She is recounting her statement to me later that day. Sarah,
Speaker 1: you are here today facing sentencing to pay for stealing
Speaker 1: a bike, a helmet, and camps reserved for adults with
Speaker 1: real disabilities and illnesses. While these are hantous acts that
Speaker 1: are fall under the current definition of a crime, the
Speaker 1: irreparable pain and a measurable damage you have paused so
Speaker 1: much more. With Liz and Bethany finished, Luke Wiseler asked
Speaker 1: the judge for a punishment of eight months in prison.
Speaker 1: Sarah's defense attorney told the court that his client regretted
Speaker 1: what she had done and that admitting to it on
Speaker 1: television meant that there were YouTube links and news stories
Speaker 1: that would follow her for the rest of her life.
Speaker 1: He mentioned mitigating factors in her childhood. He didn't specify
Speaker 1: what they were though. Finally came Sarah's turn. She started
Speaker 1: by apologizing for all she had done. She said she changed,
Speaker 1: telling the judge I no longer need to seek unhealthy
Speaker 1: behaviors to seek the approval of others. I could only
Speaker 1: listen on a dial in line, but all the participants
Speaker 1: of the hearing were on zoom watching Sarah's face. The
Speaker 1: victims who were on the screen were still emotional. They
Speaker 1: were emotional throughout really the whole hearing. As Sarah spoke,
Speaker 1: there didn't see to be a lot of emotion behind
Speaker 1: her words, and so especially after the victims had spoken
Speaker 1: and had so much emotion what they were saying, you know,
Speaker 1: there was just a very clear difference in what was
Speaker 1: being said, or at least how it was being said,
Speaker 1: and they were just shaking their head kind of almost
Speaker 1: denying the sincerity of what was being said. As as
Speaker 1: it was being said, they just weren't buying it. The
Speaker 1: court went into recess so the judge could consider all
Speaker 1: she had heard. Everyone waited when court resumed. Judge Stacy
Speaker 1: Yandal started by acknowledging the unusual nous of the case
Speaker 1: and how the damage Sarah inflicted on the hearts and
Speaker 1: souls of those who befriended her was not technically a
Speaker 1: matter for a court of law. It didn't take long
Speaker 1: in listening to to what the judge was saying to
Speaker 1: to see that she really did recognize the emotional impact.
Speaker 1: She pointed out that the goal of sentencing is not
Speaker 1: just punishment, but deterrence. In a time when the Internet
Speaker 1: makes it easy for people to pray on the generosity
Speaker 1: of others, just like Sarah did. The judge pointed out
Speaker 1: that Sarah had been scamming people for a long long time,
Speaker 1: back to two thousand and six. There was documentation of it.
Speaker 1: I think she meant the quilt. I couldn't record the
Speaker 1: judge because of federal rules. But here's another journalist reading
Speaker 1: from the court transcript. Mr Lashmidt began her fraudulent s
Speaker 1: free many many years ago, and she has yet to
Speaker 1: be deterred. As the government pointed out in its sentencing memorandum,
Speaker 1: this defendant has gone from one fraudulent charade to the
Speaker 1: next for years. The loss of her Illinois nursing license
Speaker 1: in two thousand fourteen for faking pregnancies and miscarriages. Did
Speaker 1: not deter her from pretending to have muscular dystrophy at
Speaker 1: Camp Summit in two thousand fifteen and two thousand sixteen,
Speaker 1: and being confronted by her pastor and family and having
Speaker 1: to rise up from her wheelchair and walk out of
Speaker 1: Camp Summit in two thousand sixteen did not deter her
Speaker 1: from attending ysc events as a breast cancer survivor in
Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen and two thousand eighteen. So the question
Speaker 1: is what will deter her. I listened closely, Mr de
Speaker 1: lashmant to your statement, and I paid attention, and I'm
Speaker 1: frankly not persuaded that there is genuine remorse here or
Speaker 1: that there is genuine shame. Judge Yandal acknowledged that Sarah's
Speaker 1: behavior could be the result of untreated mental illness, but said,
Speaker 1: I will point out that this court has been presented
Speaker 1: with no evidence of that. I have no records, there
Speaker 1: has been no diagnosis. Finally, the judge pointed out the
Speaker 1: limits of the law in this case and said that
Speaker 1: standard sentencing guidelines just don't capture or reflect the nature
Speaker 1: or the range of Miss de Laschmidt's conduct, or her crime,
Speaker 1: or the impact of her crimes on the victims. And
Speaker 1: with that, Judge Stacy Yandell more than doubled the sentence
Speaker 1: the prosecution had requested. And so where is she today?
Speaker 1: She is imprisoned. When the judge handed down Sarah's prison sentence,
Speaker 1: citing her history going back to the time of the quilt,
Speaker 1: Andrea Smith, who was listening in, was elated. It was
Speaker 1: absolute vindication. It felt like she was getting sentenced for
Speaker 1: what she did to us, even though we were unable
Speaker 1: to press charges at the time. Andrea had been chasing
Speaker 1: Sarah across the Internet for years, hoping to warn her
Speaker 1: next potential mark. So as we sat at her computer
Speaker 1: in South Carolina, I wanted to know, now, what do
Speaker 1: you think she'll stop? No, I don't. I don't think
Speaker 1: that she will stop. I think this is a compulsion.
Speaker 1: I think that she has mentally ill. I'm not a
Speaker 1: psychiatric professional, but there's something missing from her life. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not I'm not well versed enough, but
Speaker 1: there's something wrong that she needs to seek satisfaction through
Speaker 1: feigning illness. Sarah never answered any letters I wrote to
Speaker 1: her in prison, but in a text message, Sarah's aunt
Speaker 1: told me that she's doing well. She wrote that Sarah
Speaker 1: started attending a Bible study group and one of the
Speaker 1: inmates is teaching her to crochet. Sarah's mom is having
Speaker 1: a hard time with her being gone. We're just praying
Speaker 1: that she can get through this. Sarah will be fine.
Speaker 1: Her aunt wrapped up the message by texting in ending,
Speaker 1: I just want to say we all miss her and
Speaker 1: pray for peace for the people who made it their
Speaker 1: life's purpose to punish her. Sarah's prison sentence was supposed
Speaker 1: to end in July, but she got out early on
Speaker 1: March four, something that Luke Wisler says isn't all that
Speaker 1: unusual for federal sentences. In late January, only weeks before
Speaker 1: her full release, she changed her Facebook profile picture. In
Speaker 1: the photo, her brunette hair has blonde highlights. She's holding
Speaker 1: a chocolate chip cookie and smiling. Wherever Sarah went, she
Speaker 1: left people shaken. Sympathy was both her great need and
Speaker 1: her powerful weapon. The victims I talked to are still
Speaker 1: not the same. This is a story where justice was served,
Speaker 1: but a tidy ending is not possible. Do you feel
Speaker 1: like you have been able to have the closure that
Speaker 1: you need? In a way, yes, but in a wing
Speaker 1: this is Aaron again. I kind of feel closer in
Speaker 1: a way, but I don't because I don't feel like
Speaker 1: she's really being punished for what she did to so
Speaker 1: many other people, because there are people that she did
Speaker 1: money and equipment from, and then there's people like me
Speaker 1: and Bethani and so many other people who she didn't
Speaker 1: really take money from, but mess of our hearts and
Speaker 1: our motion, our families and everything that money can't buy.
Speaker 1: And I'm still left thinking about the question her dad
Speaker 1: asked me. If you didn't know Sarah, if you were
Speaker 1: never caught in her net, why does any of this matter?
Speaker 1: To be honest with you, I've heard that question myself.
Speaker 1: I've even had people come to me and say, why
Speaker 1: are you putting this much energy towards something that was
Speaker 1: so traumatic for Bethany. The answer comes back to something
Speaker 1: that Dr Phil said that Sarah was able to do
Speaker 1: what she did because she had no empathy. Empathy is
Speaker 1: at the core of why all this matters, because it's
Speaker 1: at the core of humanity. For the world to function,
Speaker 1: we must be able to see ourselves in others. Without that,
Speaker 1: we can't comprehend their pain, their motivation, the drivers behind
Speaker 1: the decisions they make every day. Sarah was able to
Speaker 1: wall herself off from the damage she was causing people
Speaker 1: like Bethany or Aaron or Liz or anyone she conned.
Speaker 1: Either Sarah in her mind couldn't comprehend how she was
Speaker 1: hurting them, or she did comprehend it and just didn't care.
Speaker 1: Are And here's the reason Bethany and other people Sarah
Speaker 1: knew wanted to tell this story. They look around and
Speaker 1: see plenty of people who destroy the trust and spirit
Speaker 1: of those around them, too many people who are either
Speaker 1: passively or willfully numb to the suffering of others. I
Speaker 1: can open up any of my social media's right now
Speaker 1: and pull up videos of adults screaming and fighting, like,
Speaker 1: how am I supposed to teach my child? We're supposed
Speaker 1: to be kind when those are the things that she's
Speaker 1: going to experience. And that's it's it's deep. It's troubling.
Speaker 1: Every day we see people hide behind online personas to
Speaker 1: demean other people. We see people dismissing the basic human
Speaker 1: nous of others because they have a different set of
Speaker 1: problems than we do. Maybe they assure themselves that their
Speaker 1: actions can't be cruel because they're not cruel people. Psychologists
Speaker 1: have called it America's crisis of empathy, and the societal
Speaker 1: fractures caused by the pandemic have only made things worse.
Speaker 1: Bethany knows how destructive that can be. I know what
Speaker 1: it feels like to feel degraded. I know what it
Speaker 1: feels like to feel like to feel worthless. Sarah's behavior
Speaker 1: was an outlier, but when Bethany distills her actions down
Speaker 1: to their core, she sees a lack of empathy from
Speaker 1: other kinds of Sarah's that leave hidden wounds everywhere. The
Speaker 1: reason why the story is so important for me to
Speaker 1: get out there is what are we all doing with
Speaker 1: our trauma? You know, Sarah can go to prison, someone
Speaker 1: can lock her up for a crime, but where is
Speaker 1: the law? She was technically locked up because she stole
Speaker 1: goods and services from these organizations, but the law doesn't
Speaker 1: account for the trauma. And there's one other question, how
Speaker 1: do you have empathy for someone who has none for you?
Speaker 1: How do we have empathy for someone like Sarah? She
Speaker 1: left others broken because she was broken herself, and in
Speaker 1: that case, I don't know what justice really looks like.
Speaker 1: I can understand that she needed to be punished for
Speaker 1: the hurt she caused, but she needs more than that.
Speaker 1: Dr Phil told her that people who don't have empathy
Speaker 1: can't fake it. Maybe one day, with how she'll find it,
Speaker 1: maybe the rest of us will too. Sympathy Pains is
Speaker 1: a production of Neon Hum Media and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Your Host Laura Beale I wrote and reported the episodes.
Speaker 1: Natalie Wrinn is lead producer. Our editor is Katherine st. Louis.
Speaker 1: Associate producer is Rufaro Mazzarua. Our executive producer is Jonathan Hirsch.
Speaker 1: Samantha Allison is our production manager. Fact checker is Jacqueline Colletti.
Speaker 1: Jesse Perlstein composed the theme song and music heard throughout
Speaker 1: the series. Additional tracks are by Blue Dot Sessions and
Speaker 1: Epidemic Sound. Scott Somerville is our engineer and sound designer.
Speaker 1: Reporting consultants are Liz Hiccocks and Bethany Turner. Special thanks
Speaker 1: to Stephanie Serrano, Renee, Michael Pruitt, and Aaron Brown from
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Special thanks to Carrie Lieberman and Bethan Macaluso.
Speaker 1: Executive producer at I Heart Radio is Dylan Fagan. If
Speaker 1: you or someone you know is struggling with mental illness,
Speaker 1: you can call the National Alliance on Mental Illness at
Speaker 1: eight hundred nine five oh six two six four. That's
Speaker 1: eight hundred nine five oh n a m I. If
Speaker 1: you like our podcast, would love for you to leave
Speaker 1: a review. It helps people find our show and thank
Speaker 1: you for listening. H