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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks.

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Speaker 1: And we continue now a part two of Alex's conversation

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Speaker 1: with Todd Chaffey right after these brief messages from our

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Speaker 1: general sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Now what happened is the political wins changed so well.

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Speaker 2: Over a decade ago, the US Supreme Court ruled that

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Speaker 2: states cannot sentence a juvenal as identified by someone as

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Speaker 2: seventeen or younger to a natural life sentence. They literally

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Speaker 2: have to show that the person that you could not

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Speaker 2: rehabilitate the person. So they told the states they have

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Speaker 2: to go back and review all their non parable life

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Speaker 2: juveniles and see if they can resentence them to term

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Speaker 2: of years. So that's what they started doing, and all

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Speaker 2: of Sinden, some of our guys started getting out. So

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Speaker 2: instead of a life sentense, all of a sudden, they

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Speaker 2: got maybe a forty to sixty years sentence, they maybe

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Speaker 2: had twenty eight thirty in And then if you came

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Speaker 2: into prison before two thousand, you could earn good time credits.

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Speaker 2: They could earn up to eight to ten years of

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Speaker 2: good time that would get applied and they'd meet the forty.

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Speaker 2: So now we've had nineteen We just had a guy

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Speaker 2: get out a month ago who was certain natural life

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Speaker 2: at eighteen. They now move the age up to eighteen.

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Speaker 2: Michigan's thinking of moving up to twenty.

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Speaker 3: He just got yes, so.

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Speaker 2: There's good science behind it. But this guy committed his

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Speaker 2: crime at eighteen. He did just almost thirty five years.

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Speaker 2: He's fifty three, got out. He used to be a

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Speaker 2: white supremacist, very violent, thought his life was over when

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Speaker 2: he got to prison, he said, I'm gonna die here.

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Speaker 2: What do I care? Converted to Christianity. Now he's enrolled

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Speaker 2: at Calvin Seminary and eventually he's going to do a

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Speaker 2: PhD in theology and teach for Calvin Prisident Initiative. Really yes,

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Speaker 2: So it doesn't get any better than that.

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Speaker 4: There's a bunch of things you said. I want to

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Speaker 4: follow up on. One of the states saying we don't

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Speaker 4: want to invest in people in life sentences reminds me

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Speaker 4: of I once to interviewed a guy who had a

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Speaker 4: great line saying, you're standing too close to the bottom line.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, And there's a great argument for taxpayers, like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: why were we going to spend taxpayer dollars on this?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: It doesn't make any sense, and that's standing too close to.

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Speaker 4: The bottom line, and it is if we do invest

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Speaker 4: in their lives, you know, what does that do inside

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Speaker 4: of the prison and the recidivism rate and you kind

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Speaker 4: of talk.

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Speaker 2: About I can't. Yeah, So most of the talk years

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Speaker 2: ago is all about recidivism rates. When a guy gets out,

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Speaker 2: how many come back within three to five years, and

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Speaker 2: the recidism rates in the country, especially ten years ago

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Speaker 2: when we were easily sixty five percent, So the guy

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Speaker 2: would literally go back to prison within three years sixty

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Speaker 2: five percent of the time. And then they have rates

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Speaker 2: for okay, he doesn't go back to prison, but he

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Speaker 2: gets throw in jail for a month or he gets

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Speaker 2: picked up by the police or whatever. And it was

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Speaker 2: just so what we knew is this it wasn't working.

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Speaker 2: Whatever we were trying to do wasn't working because they're

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Speaker 2: all coming back basically. Now here's what you don't also know, though,

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Speaker 2: Are some prisons violent? Absolutely? Absolutely? What's the cost of that?

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Speaker 2: So if a prisoner harms an officer and that officer

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Speaker 2: has to go to the hospital or stay in the hospital,

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Speaker 2: what's the cost, not just what the cost physically, Now,

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Speaker 2: what's that emotionally.

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Speaker 4: Or herms another prisoner or another prisoner then gets out

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Speaker 4: and is messed up.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and then exactly so we're not looking at it

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Speaker 2: at a finer level. But if you do, you realize

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Speaker 2: it's in everybody's best interest to give something positive to do,

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Speaker 2: become more humane, good neighbors with one another, and you

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Speaker 2: start saving money big time. The less violent a prison is,

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Speaker 2: the cheaper it is. So now to invest in a lifer,

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Speaker 2: you are saving money in the same way that you're

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Speaker 2: concerned about recidivism rates. And believe it or not, that

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Speaker 2: lifer now is your ally in helping to make sure

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Speaker 2: this guy doesn't come back. No lifer wants see guys

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Speaker 2: come back. They get it. They through in life. It's like,

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Speaker 2: don't come back. And so the Rand Corporation, which is

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Speaker 2: a nonpartisan think tank that looks at issues, social problems

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Speaker 2: and tries to develop public policy issues are policies for

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Speaker 2: politicians and others. They did a meta study almost fifteen

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Speaker 2: years ago now maybe a little longer, and they showed

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Speaker 2: for every dollar spent on higher end prisons, you say,

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Speaker 2: four to five dollars, incarceration costs.

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Speaker 3: I want to be surprised if it's higher for you

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Speaker 3: guys given hour.

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Speaker 2: Right, So all of a sudden, at one level, on

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Speaker 2: an economic level, it doesn't matter what you think about prisoners.

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Speaker 2: To invest in the these types of programs is smart money,

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Speaker 2: smart tax payer dollars. Now that's what Michigan's doing. So

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Speaker 2: since we started our program, Michigan has changed their mind

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Speaker 2: about lifers. So now every time a college and university

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Speaker 2: wants start a hired program in prison, the Michigan Department

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Speaker 2: of Corrections says, you have to take a certain percentage

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Speaker 2: of lifers. And you know, I honestly think it's because

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Speaker 2: we were doing that and they saw the positive results,

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Speaker 2: so now it's kind of built into the thing. We're

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Speaker 2: very excited about that.

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Speaker 4: One of the things I love about your model if

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Speaker 4: you can explain it, like the process to get into

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Speaker 4: the program and the fact that these people are coming

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Speaker 4: from prisons across the state and then often going back,

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Speaker 4: So could you explain that and how the students are chosen.

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Speaker 2: So what we thought is what we really want. We're

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Speaker 2: not so concerned about academic performance because as an educator,

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Speaker 2: we realize we can do that. So if a guy

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Speaker 2: doesn't write very well, we can get them up to

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Speaker 2: speed in a couple of years. What we need are

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Speaker 2: men who want to be a part of something new

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Speaker 2: and different and change. That's what we have to identify.

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Speaker 2: Now we're a Christian program, so yeah, we're gonna get

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Speaker 2: a lot of Christian students, we get Muslim, Buddhist, Native American,

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Speaker 2: we get everything.

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Speaker 3: So why would they want to take it?

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Speaker 2: Because they realize that we don't lead per se with

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Speaker 2: the Christian flag. We rather say we're Christian University, committed

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Speaker 2: to the common good, even in prison. We're committed to

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Speaker 2: your humanity and being more and more human all the time,

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Speaker 2: and we want to see you use your life. Well, oh,

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Speaker 2: by the way, we're Christian, and yeah, you're gonna take

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Speaker 2: theologia courses in Bible. But again we're gonna do it

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Speaker 2: in a way that we hope isn't exclusionary. So they

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Speaker 2: get attracted by that. Now, initially what attracted them is

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Speaker 2: we said lifers are welcome, and a lot of these

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Speaker 2: guys said, I've never seen a flyer in prisons, says

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Speaker 2: that what's going on here? So they would come in

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Speaker 2: and we would look for others who have worked with

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Speaker 2: them to help identify passion desire commitment, chaplains, wardens, maybe officers.

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Speaker 2: We'd have them do some proctered essays and we'd ask

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Speaker 2: them certain questions that we think are trying to get

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Speaker 2: at this. We'd get them in and the academic stuff

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Speaker 2: we could work on that usually takes about two years

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Speaker 2: to get a guy who fully up to speed. Then

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Speaker 2: after five years in the program, upon graduation, we formed

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Speaker 2: teams of guys, eight to ten guys, and they're all

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Speaker 2: prepared to work in ministry, academics and peer mentoring. And

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Speaker 2: then we send them out to another prison, another facility

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Speaker 2: to work with that administration to say, these are agents

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Speaker 2: of change, here's what these guys can do. Use them

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Speaker 2: that way and.

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Speaker 4: As a god to the point where the wardens of

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Speaker 4: those other prisons are like really behind these guys that

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Speaker 4: excited it.

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Speaker 2: And yes. So we had a sister college, Hope College

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Speaker 2: in Holland, want to start a prison program because they

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Speaker 2: thought the Calvin thing was cool. We helped them get

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Speaker 2: that going in a prison in Miskegan, Michigan, and we said,

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Speaker 2: how about if we send a team out to you

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Speaker 2: guys to help you get your program going. And we

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Speaker 2: sent I think nine guys out there, and the warden

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Speaker 2: was very hesitant because he didn't really know what it

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Speaker 2: was and he's like, what are we doing? And I

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Speaker 2: don't do I want this. After a couple of years

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Speaker 2: I talked to him and he said, your graduates are amazing.

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Speaker 2: Send as many as you possibly can to me. He goes,

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Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like it. They are truly selfless.

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Speaker 2: They give, they want to see others succeed. And he

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Speaker 2: said I need that, and then he becomes the voice

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Speaker 2: now for another warden, so we can go to other

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Speaker 2: ward and say, hey, you know him, yep, yep, listen

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Speaker 2: what he has to say about this. So we have

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Speaker 2: teams out at four prisons right now.

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Speaker 4: If you want to change the call, sure, in a prison,

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Speaker 4: it's probably much more likely to happen from the prisoners

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Speaker 4: than from.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent, because there's this huge animosity in gulf

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Speaker 2: between us them. I understand that. I get it. You

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Speaker 2: know that officers are leary of prisoners, and prisoners are

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Speaker 2: leary of the administration and officers. And it's partly why

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Speaker 2: that's because of how we've done incarceration in this country

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Speaker 2: for decades. Other countries don't always have that. So in

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Speaker 2: our situation absolutely prisoner or prisoner's way to go is uh.

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Speaker 4: I know I keep saying, guys, is are these in

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Speaker 4: any female prisons yet?

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Speaker 2: So? Uh. When we started, Michigan I think had thirty

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Speaker 2: one or thirty two prisons and we're down to I

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Speaker 2: think twenty six. So the good news is that we're

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Speaker 2: depopulating those prisons and we're not seen as many people

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Speaker 2: come back. Michigan has a recidivism right now at about

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Speaker 2: twenty or twenty percent.

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Speaker 3: I was going to ask you about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty good.

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Speaker 3: Like, how is that possibly the case?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty good.

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Speaker 3: I've never heard of a state being that low.

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Speaker 2: No, and it's because all these programs don't I'm absolutely

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Speaker 2: convinced that.

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Speaker 4: Like, I mean, so obviously you guys are a big

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Speaker 4: part of but are their other programs in the state

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Speaker 4: too that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So what happened is I think the Department of

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Speaker 2: Corrections recognized that the main concern cannot simply be custody.

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Speaker 2: That's what they call it, custody order safety. Sure, you

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Speaker 2: got to have that, but if all you're making sure

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Speaker 2: is that guys don't harmin another person and that they

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Speaker 2: go from where they need to be a to B.

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Speaker 2: What's that? So they began to look at who's a

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Speaker 2: good prisoner someone who doesn't get in trouble. That's a

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Speaker 2: negative way to see it. I said, how about you

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Speaker 2: see a good prisoner as someone who's doing good things

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Speaker 2: and begin to track that. So they've ramped up their programming.

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Speaker 2: And now when we started there was just two schools

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Speaker 2: doing education of Community College and Jackson, Michigan and then

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Speaker 2: us who were doing a BA. Now we have twelve,

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Speaker 2: with about eight or nine started and the rest will

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Speaker 2: be online in the fall. So this is having a

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Speaker 2: huge impact on these prisons, and then that trickles out

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Speaker 2: to the main population often and so that's why we're

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Speaker 2: starting to see recitizen rates I think lowered within ten

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Speaker 2: years now. It's all to say the women's prison.

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Speaker 4: I mean, just to put a point on it too,

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Speaker 4: that's a third of the national average. Yes, and the

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Speaker 4: national average is still around sixty.

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Speaker 2: It is it is so Michigan really is leading the

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Speaker 2: way right now. I think it's because politicians, the people

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Speaker 2: who work in the Department of Corrections, and then these

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Speaker 2: outside groups. One thing that on the same page.

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Speaker 4: I think they would probably say too, if you were

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Speaker 4: here is it took an army of normal folks to

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Speaker 4: get us there right, taking us to push them, and

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Speaker 4: they see it in like all.

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Speaker 2: Right, honestly, that's exactly the way it was. There are

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Speaker 2: a lot of nonprofit grassroots groups in Michigan that I

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Speaker 2: discovered all these years, and I think they put a

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Speaker 2: lot of pressure we I I've probably testified in lancing

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Speaker 2: before state legislators now handful of maybe five six times.

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Speaker 2: But when you go do that, you realize there's all

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Speaker 2: sorts of folks testifying Yeah, like somebody who's just run

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Speaker 2: this little nonprofits there like saying hey, and it's made

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Speaker 2: a believer out of me that that you can change stuff,

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Speaker 2: you really can.

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Speaker 5: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Now. The women's prison, that was the last thing that

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Speaker 2: we wanted. There's one women's prison in Michigan. It's an Ipsilanti,

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Speaker 2: Michigan outside Detroit. By an arbor.

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Speaker 4: Rock band in high school there you go, well, there's

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Speaker 4: a prison there too.

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Speaker 2: You can play there. And we were being asked by

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Speaker 2: our donors constantly, what about the women, What about the women?

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Speaker 2: We said, well, gee, we would do something, but it's

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Speaker 2: a good two fur drive. How do we do this.

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Speaker 2: So a couple of years ago, Eastern Michigan University said,

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Speaker 2: all right, we'll do it. We're going to offer a

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Speaker 2: BA there. So we actually worked with them, and now

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Speaker 2: they've started and they're running women through and I think

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Speaker 2: they all have their first BA graduates in about a

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Speaker 2: year now. That's tremendous because literally this is true of

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Speaker 2: every state. When we think of incarceration, we think of

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Speaker 2: men and we don't think of women, and all the

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Speaker 2: resources tend to go to the men, and the women

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Speaker 2: often get the crumbs. And yet what's interesting is that

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Speaker 2: when you go to a women's facility a prison, that

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Speaker 2: prison they're in was designed for twelve hundred inmates. They

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Speaker 2: probably have seventeen hundred in there one prison. That means

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Speaker 2: they have to have all the security levels in one prison.

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Speaker 2: So you're working already in an isolated environment that's now segregated,

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Speaker 2: and so to do prison time for a woman's really hard. Now,

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Speaker 2: what's interesting about a women's prison on the whole, they

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Speaker 2: tend not to be very violent, so there's opportunities there

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Speaker 2: to do different things without the worry about the violence part.

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Speaker 2: So in some ways it's fertile ground for all sorts

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Speaker 2: of programs. So Michigan also started what they call vocational village.

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Speaker 2: They started at our prison when we started, and that's

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Speaker 2: in the trades, so carpentry, automotive, whatever. But they did

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Speaker 2: a second vocational village for a men's facility in Jackson, Michigan,

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Speaker 2: and the third one was for the women's facility. So

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Speaker 2: in terms of Michigan putting significant resources, because to start

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Speaker 2: a vocational village costs millions of dollars startup, they finally

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Speaker 2: emphasized the women's prison. And as we all know who

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Speaker 2: do this, they're having good results.

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Speaker 4: And we kind of need people in the trades, like

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Speaker 4: the country's kind of got a problem with true.

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Speaker 2: And so there's a huge employment office the department has

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Speaker 2: and they have well over a ninety percent placement record.

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Speaker 3: That's amazing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I just look at it this way. Those

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Speaker 2: of us who have kids, we know what kind of

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Speaker 2: works eventually, is like you got to prep them for

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Speaker 2: something college trades. What I mean, you know, you work

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Speaker 2: at this and you build it and do them that, Hey,

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Speaker 2: you can have a career, you can have a decent lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: Why aren't we doing that more in these places? It's

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Speaker 2: no different. A lot of these people didn't have that

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Speaker 2: when they're in high school, and so they're eager for

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Speaker 2: it now and it works.

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Speaker 4: How to go back to Actuant Academy again, but one

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Speaker 4: of my favorite things they base it on. There's three

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Speaker 4: things that are trying to achieve with their students. Learn

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Speaker 4: to learn, you learn how to learn right, you learn

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Speaker 4: to do how to master something which the trades is,

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Speaker 4: and you learn to be the combination of your program

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Speaker 4: with the vocational villain. Yes, touching out all those.

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Speaker 2: And when you think about it's all very basic and uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, parents who care about their kids having a

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Speaker 2: successful life, that's what they do. And so I guess

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Speaker 2: I don't know when we started this. I thought, you know,

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Speaker 2: mass incarceration, huge problem in our society.

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Speaker 3: Expensive tell us a little bit more.

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Speaker 4: In your January series talk you go through a long

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Speaker 4: riff about the overincarceration in the country.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we can contract these things. Starting in the

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Speaker 2: seventies that it became politically fashionable to talk about a

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Speaker 2: war on crime, war on drugs. Right, it's just after

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Speaker 2: the sixties, and so the country was reeling yet from

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Speaker 2: this whole drug issue. And then Richard Nixon actually helped

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Speaker 2: pinpoint it in urban areas, and that began to target

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Speaker 2: African American communities, and so in our society we began to,

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Speaker 2: you know, put together, oh war on drugs African Americans.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot of the problem here in crime. Even

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Speaker 2: though we know that per capita, white people tend to

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Speaker 2: use drugs way more than African Americans. Then they started

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Speaker 2: doing tougher sentences on certain types of drugs. So now

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Speaker 2: we know that if you smoke crack cocaine, you got

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Speaker 2: to stiffer sentence then if you use powder cocaine. Powder

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Speaker 2: cocaine was often used by white males, crack cocaine by

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Speaker 2: black men. So you see this ramp up in the

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Speaker 2: eighties and it really hits a point under the Clinton

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Speaker 2: administration when we talk about these super predators, that language

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Speaker 2: that he used to describe these violent juveniles, and what

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Speaker 2: we realize the idea was that people are getting more violent. Actually,

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Speaker 2: if you look at the research on that right now now,

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Speaker 2: they're showing it wasn't that people are more violent. What

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Speaker 2: happened is there was more of an influx of guns.

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Speaker 2: And so if I tend if I'm going to hit

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Speaker 2: you in the face. Let's say, okay, it's an act

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Speaker 2: of violence. Now, if you put a gun in my hand,

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Speaker 2: I shoot you. Interesting, but the violent act is the same,

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Speaker 2: it's just the means by which I execute it.

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Speaker 4: It's funny here, and some people we've interviewed, they'll be like,

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Speaker 4: these gangs are a bunch of whissies. They're just like

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Speaker 4: using guns like they're not getting in real No.

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Speaker 2: And so what you see is that the so called

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Speaker 2: the uptick in violence, it makes it sound like more

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Speaker 2: and more people are getting more and more violent. It's

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Speaker 2: actually due to the gun. So the rate of who's

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Speaker 2: violent and how often stayed relatively the same. It's just

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Speaker 2: they have a different means by which to do it,

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Speaker 2: which means the outcome is graver.

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Speaker 4: Can you talk about if you have the numbers on

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Speaker 4: the top of your had the scale of incarceration here

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Speaker 4: versus elsewhere?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So the US incarcerates per capita

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Speaker 2: more than any other country in the world. So, for instance,

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Speaker 2: at one point we were incarcerating one out of every

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Speaker 2: thousand citizens. Where you have places like England, maybe the

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Speaker 2: low one hundreds, Italy low one hundreds. The only country

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Speaker 2: that begins to really compete with this are countries like Russia, China, well,

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Speaker 2: un list that we don't want to be on.

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Speaker 3: So for instance, trip that's three million Americans.

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Speaker 2: Yes, right. And in Michigan, for instance, we peaked in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight with fifty two thousand prisoners locked

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Speaker 2: up for a state that has roughly a million people.

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Speaker 2: Now we've dropped back in the seventies, we incarcerated literally

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Speaker 2: a couple thousand, and so even that you see, like

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Speaker 2: for instance, the facility where the prison where we are,

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Speaker 2: it was built as a vocational prison for training one

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Speaker 2: person per sell. Now it's two percel. And so all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, they literally were incarcerating so many people

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Speaker 2: we didn't even have the ability to house them.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 2: At our facility, what's called the day room and a

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Speaker 2: housing unit. It can usually hold about forty guys at tables,

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Speaker 2: they watch TV, they do whatever. They were using that

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Speaker 2: one time as a dormitory and putting forty guys that

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Speaker 2: live there and they had to put up bunk beds

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Speaker 2: and everything. Now do you are in Michigan, we've dropped

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Speaker 2: down to about thirty two thousand right now, So every

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Speaker 2: state had these huge massive peaks. If you look at Texas, California,

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Speaker 2: well into the seventy eighty thousands, it's.

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Speaker 3: Actually three hundred thousand.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I did the math throng on that. Yeah, I've had

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Speaker 3: ran out of coffee.

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Speaker 2: This interview right right, right, But you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: think people really What we did is we created a frenzy,

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Speaker 2: We created a narrative, and we for some people that

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Speaker 2: worked politically. You know, think of when George J's Bush

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Speaker 2: ran and do Caucus and the Willie Horton issue. It worked.

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Speaker 2: All they had to do is say one guy got out

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Speaker 2: and murdered somebody and he wants that guy out, and boom,

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Speaker 2: the people are saying, that's what sank his candicy.

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Speaker 4: One of my favorite lines that a politician said, I'm

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Speaker 4: not going to say it, but who it is, just

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Speaker 4: to get people on the other side not pissed off

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Speaker 4: this person, but this He had a really good line

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Speaker 4: of we need to have a difference of people who

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Speaker 4: were actually dangerous and people were really really mad at

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Speaker 4: up incarcerating a lot of people that were really really

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Speaker 4: mad at Doe.

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Speaker 2: Like so, for instance, at the federal level, it's just

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Speaker 2: over fifty percent of most people in federal prisons are

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Speaker 2: there for drug crimes, non violent drug crimes. And so

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Speaker 2: if you think is that the best way to handle

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Speaker 2: that now, we thought so years ago in the eighties

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Speaker 2: and nineties. Today if you look at the opioid epidemic,

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Speaker 2: now we're treating as a healthcare issue, which rightly so.

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Speaker 2: And so we're saying, if I've got a drug addict,

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Speaker 2: what is incarcerating this person going to do? Because what

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Speaker 2: we don't realize is there's every drug you can find

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Speaker 2: in a prison.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't solve the problem at all.

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Speaker 2: It takes them off the street, but it's still criminal

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Speaker 2: activity going on because somebody smuggle that in. It's coming

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Speaker 2: off the street, you know what I mean, it's not working.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think people have heard the drug stories

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Speaker 4: which shocked me. As someone once told me they were

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Speaker 4: actually brewing beer inside for a person. I'm like, this

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Speaker 4: place is so lawless that they're running a brewery inside.

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Speaker 2: There, absolutely called spot juice.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk about some of the programs that your students

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Speaker 4: have started. Oh yeah, and I mean it probably gets

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Speaker 4: to too, some of their personal stories that hearing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we knew in any good setting where you're

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Speaker 2: encouraging people to think, to be critical, to consider. What

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Speaker 2: you're calling is that people are going to come up

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Speaker 2: with things that you didn't think of. And that's what

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Speaker 2: you want as an educator at a college, I want

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Speaker 2: my students to go out and be creative. And that

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Speaker 2: was happening in prisons. In our prison and so a

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Speaker 2: lot of guys said, you know, the vast, vast majority

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Speaker 2: of people who are incarcerated have some form of mental

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Speaker 2: health issue. They came to prison with it. If they

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Speaker 2: didn't come with it, they got it now. And when

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Speaker 2: we depopulated our mental health institutions in the eighties, sending

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Speaker 2: a lot of these people out on the streets, eventually

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Speaker 2: they got locked up. So, for instance, at our facility,

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Speaker 2: of about almost thirteen hundred prisoners, one third are in

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Speaker 2: significant mental health treatment programs, a lot of our guys

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Speaker 2: and would say, we need to do something about that.

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Speaker 2: What can we do now? Again, we had the social

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Speaker 2: work and so we got a lot of our social

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Speaker 2: work profts to say, Okay, what would it mean to

436
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 2: train our guys to be peer mentors for mental health?

437
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: What would that look like? So we worked with some

438
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: of the mental health staff at the prison. We worked

439
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 2: with mental health staff in Lansing, Michigan. We literally all

440
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: sat down a table and we came up with a proposal.

441
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 2: We got accepted by the director of the Department of Corrections,

442
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 2: and then we moved several of our guys into the

443
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: mental health unit, one of the mental health units, and

444
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: they began to work with guys helping with hygiene, being

445
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: more social, being more physically active. They'd play cards with them.

446
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 2: Eventually that led to, hey, have you ever thought about

447
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: junior ged? Well, I just told I'm dumb, I'm this,

448
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 2: I'm that, I can't read. Well, let me work with you.

449
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 2: So we actually have a guy who is able not

450
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: only to finish his ged in prison in the mental

451
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: health unit, now he's been accepted in the Calvin program.

452
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 2: And he said, my whole life, I've been told I'm dumb.

453
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: Now he finished his very first semester with about a

454
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 2: B plus average, so he's not dumb. But that came.

455
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 3: From people who said, yeah, yeah, right right.

456
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: But that came from our graduates who said, we can

457
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: recognize what's going on here. We live it, we know

458
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: how to address it. Again, John Perkins, I'm your neighbor

459
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna I'm gonna observe what you need. So now,

460
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 2: I just had one of the healthcare workers in that

461
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 2: unit to tell me, if you plucked all the eight

462
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 2: Calvin grads out of this unit, most of our programs

463
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 2: we wouldn't be able to run. They become such a

464
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 2: vital part of our programming. We trust them. It's like

465
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: having a whole new army of staff that we can't afford.

466
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 5: Right, we'll be right back.

467
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 2: We are. Now we've had several years, We've had about

468
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 2: three three and a half years of success with this effort,

469
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: and we're about ready to put it on the road

470
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: and send out a group of guys who are trained

471
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 2: in mental health pure mentoring to work at other facilities.

472
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: We're going to actually start training them as well now

473
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,479
Speaker 2: in probably the next I think January, well January, now

474
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: we're in January. I think this spring Trauma informed mental

475
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: health care. And we're working with some organ outside organizations, nonprofits.

476
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 4: Have you run into given hour, I have not. Okay,

477
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 4: I'm happy to introduce you to him. So we interviewed

478
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 4: them on the podcast and they actually started of helping

479
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 4: Post nine to eleven veterans. Oh, sure, you know the same.

480
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 4: That's been true with the FDN Y after nine to eleven,

481
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 4: where they're afraid to go to the military counselor. Yes,

482
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 4: they basically get that scarlet letter yes in their record,

483
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 4: which would they think, you know, often some of it's

484
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 4: probably reality and some of its perception exactly wouldn't allow

485
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 4: them to serve. And so they basically had you know,

486
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 4: a nonprofit provide the service for them. And then they

487
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 4: kind of realized, look, there's not enough counselors in the

488
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 4: country out there to solve the mental health crisis. And

489
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 4: I just in my town at Oxford too, like these

490
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 4: counselors are booked up for months like yes, and so

491
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 4: they've eventually started this peer support model. They're trying to

492
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 4: now scale that across the country. So they're training people

493
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 4: that's exactly what to do peer support groups. And that's

494
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 4: exactly what you know. The thing with the vets, it

495
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 4: happens in prison. If I'm a prisoner and I go

496
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 4: to a counselor, I don't want to get as such,

497
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 4: because then the department treat you differently. They often over

498
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 4: medicate you, and so they'll often call it about the

499
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 4: med shuffle when they get over medicated. These guys can

500
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 4: barely walk, so they just shuffle around and you see

501
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 4: it all the time. And so the perception, again partly real,

502
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 4: probably partly not, is that why're not gonna tell them

503
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 4: I have a problem, because they I'll get stigmatized and

504
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 4: they'll want to medicate me. Now, if it's a prisoner

505
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 4: to prisoner, totally different. Hey brother, I know what you're

506
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 4: going through. Come on, we can do this together, and

507
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 4: if eventually you need meds, well, then it will be

508
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 4: the right time. So they're having way better results than

509
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 4: the professionals. So we also sent several guys now to

510
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 4: the veterans unit at a Saginaw prison and we're eventually

511
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 4: gonna do trauma informed preparation for them with veterans. And

512
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 4: that came up because we have several veterans in our

513
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 4: program who said.

514
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going on when I got out.

515
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 2: I had one guy, he was a physician's assistant. He

516
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: did I think three rounds of active duty, and he said,

517
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: I came out and I had PTSD and I wasn't

518
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 2: fully aware of it, and I went crazy and I

519
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: just I just my whole life flew apart, and now

520
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: I'm looking at twenty year sentence, and he said, if

521
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: only someone could have intervened, or I would have known

522
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: enough to have someone intervene. So he has a real

523
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 2: passion now to work with vets who are locked up,

524
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: and we're just kind of letting it all grow organically,

525
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: you know. I literally teach so I teach an internship

526
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: course in their fifth year, their final year in the fall,

527
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: and their final project is what are we missing? Tell

528
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: me what we're missing. I can talk about vocation, I

529
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: can talk about John Calvin, I can talk about what

530
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: we've done. Something's work, some didn't. So we can do that,

531
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: but you know, you're the ones.

532
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 3: Who live here proximity.

533
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: Tell me what we're missing. And then they write up

534
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: a purpose. It's part of their last project. And then

535
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 2: I say, now you got to write up something that

536
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: you think could actually work. Don't give me a huge

537
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: pipe dream. Let's think about if you had, maybe in

538
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: a year or two, what would you want to implement.

539
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: And then I keep a portfolio of that in a

540
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: guy's file. If we send them out to other facilities,

541
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: I make sure the wardens say, hey, guess what these

542
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: guys got some really good ideas. Work with them for

543
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: a few years. You'll see what they can do, and

544
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: then you're gonna go back and say, hey, what was

545
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: that idea? Because I've got needs that I can't fund.

546
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: These prisons are working on shoe string budgets, and so

547
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: this is like literally giving them free staff. The most

548
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,479
Speaker 2: a guy can make with a college degree in prison

549
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: is three dollars and thirty three cents a day. It's

550
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: ridiculous and it's sad, but in this case it works

551
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: in our favor because it costs the state virtually nothing.

552
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 3: An army of normal prisoners.

553
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 2: I'm not kidding you. That's exactly what it is.

554
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 4: Tell us about the Restorative Justice Conference, the Guard, the Garden,

555
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 4: Locks of Love, I mean, you have my wheel spinning

556
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 4: that like, we should do a special series if I

557
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 4: don't know if we could interview each of these guys,

558
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 4: but if we could, that could be you could pretty

559
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 4: cool to do.

560
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: So. There was a student in our very first cohort.

561
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: So he started ten years ago and after about a year.

562
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, he's Roman Catholic, okay, and he said, I'm

563
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: part of an organization on the outside. Ruman Catholic organization

564
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: and they do a lot of work in restorative justice.

565
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: I said, Okay, he goes. I think that's how we

566
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: need to think about what we're doing, and we need

567
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 2: to create more resources around resortive justice.

568
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 4: So can you explain what it is, because I'll be honest,

569
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 4: we try to actually avoid politics on the show. Yeah,

570
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 4: but people who are pretty well aware there's a certain

571
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 4: segment of the population that uses that and it's gotten

572
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 4: a bad rap. Frankly, they've probably taken it too far.

573
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 4: A lot of them are, hey, we don't believe in

574
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 4: any police. Yeah, yeah, and that there's a certain crowd

575
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 4: that's promoting social you know, restorative justice who also believes

576
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 4: in no police and only social workers. But no, I

577
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 4: mean the actual truest form from some other stories I've told,

578
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 4: can be really beautiful.

579
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: Without a doubt. So in its basic form, you have

580
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: different types of justice that goes all the way back

581
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: to Greek philosophers. Okay, and one form of justice is

582
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: retributive justice, and that's where you punish. And so a

583
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: lot of folks would say, well, that's kind of what

584
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: we're doing in our prisons. And you know, you could

585
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: make a case that there is a certain form of

586
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: retributive justice that in fact is just now it's not

587
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: the only type of justice. There could be distributive justice, right,

588
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: what is it that I'm owed?

589
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 4: What?

590
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: What?

591
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: What?

592
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: What is someone ow mere? What does the government owe me?

593
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: Distributive justice? So there's different forms. One of them now

594
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: that people are talking about more and more is restorative justice.

595
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: And this basically says this, a harm was done. What

596
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: can we do to try to repair the harm? How

597
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: can we restore what was taking? And there's usually we

598
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: talk about it in three different ways. There's the perpetrator

599
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: and then there's a victim. All Right, the victim has needs.

600
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: What do we do to help restore the victim to

601
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: the best we can? Knowing that in some cases we'll

602
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: never be able to restore the victim, but we can

603
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: work in that direction. A perpetrator, let's use mail. When

604
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,719
Speaker 2: I create a harm, in some sense, I'm harming myself

605
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: even I'm not living up to what it means to

606
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: be human. I'm misusing maybe my gifts or my skills,

607
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 2: and so what would it mean to restore that person?

608
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: As well? To say you know what you can't do

609
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: that you've actually harmed yourself, So what do you need

610
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: you different and be different to do it. Then there's

611
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: the community. So when a harm is done, it's never

612
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: just between two people. There are communities involved, where it's families,

613
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: whatever the case may be. So we start of justice

614
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: says we have to take into account all three of

615
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 2: those agents, if you will, and ask what does each

616
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: one need to better be restored? So what I like

617
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: about restorative justice? I think some people and maybe some

618
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: folks you know, misdescribed this. They think it's all about

619
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: just the perpetrator, all we all everything to No, this

620
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: is about the victim. I mean, unfortunately, in our system

621
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: right now, when the court gavel is thrown down and

622
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: court's over. When when the court galvel is thrown down

623
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: and court's over, the idea is that justice has been

624
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: done for the victim and or victim's families or whatever.

625
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: But notice we never talk to them again. We don't

626
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: talk about the ongoing emotional trauma that it's caused. We

627
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: don't talk about the loss, we don't ever give resources

628
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 2: about now what actually we put more emphasis on the

629
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: perpetrator because the perpetrator goes to prison.

630
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 4: I'm actually, uh kind of bizarre and it's not a

631
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 4: serious victim case. But I'm actually the victim in a

632
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 4: case right now of somebody showed up at my office

633
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 4: and physically threatned me. Yeah, and the court like hasn't

634
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 4: I probably shouldn't say this give but it's an active case,

635
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 4: but I will because I don't care, and they like

636
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 4: they don't really keep me updated. I have to call

637
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 4: them right and ask for updates. And this guy asked

638
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 4: for an extension the continuance, yes, for kind of a

639
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 4: nonsense reason and like I never got to like argue

640
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 4: why it shouldn't happen the hearing with the judge on

641
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 4: that happened without me. There's a lot of serious victims

642
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 4: rights issue.

643
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: And we put way more emphats on the perpetrator. Perpetrator

644
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: can appeel the case, do all this. They have rights right,

645
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: they're given more attention than the victim in or victims families,

646
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 2: and we start off. Justice wants to correct that actually,

647
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 2: and the community. We never talked about the harm of

648
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 2: the community. If I'm in a gang and I'm shooting

649
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: another guy in a gang and we're shooting down the

650
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: street who's been traumatized with they don't dare to go

651
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 2: out of the house anymore, or what parents saying, I'm

652
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 2: not letting my kids out. We never think fully about

653
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: what that means to them and how they've been harmed

654
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: af by this. So I think restorative justice is actually

655
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 2: a more robust way of talking about justice, about there

656
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: are several multiple people involved in these things. What what

657
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: can we do to help restore all?

658
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 3: Right, let's get onto the conference.

659
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: So this student said, I want to have a restorative

660
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 2: justice conference. And he told that to this organization's Catholic

661
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: organization outside and the director of that organization said, that's

662
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: a great idea. You run it. And he was kind

663
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 2: of well, I'm kind of locked up, and he said,

664
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 2: I don't have time. I mean, I support it, but

665
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 2: you run it. So he did. He made all the contacts,

666
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: he got the speakers lined up, he got the venue,

667
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: he did all the work.

668
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 3: And I mean give credit to that college too.

669
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And a lot.

670
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 4: Of people wouldn't want to trust a prisoner to do it.

671
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 4: They were going to implement it themselves.

672
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: Right right, And so normally that nonprofit would hold a

673
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 2: yearly conference to get about fifty people. This one we

674
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: did at Hope College and it drew three hundred and

675
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 2: fifty people, and that was the impetus for the Hope

676
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: College folks to get interested in the program. That's what

677
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 2: did it. We were able to tape because yes, they're

678
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: like what is this? Who? And then they said, well

679
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 2: who did this? We said, oh, guy who's locked up,

680
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 2: Like what.

681
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 4: This isn't the same guy who was forgiven by.

682
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: It's a different guy. This guy actually won a national

683
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: award from a restorative justice org out in California. We

684
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: had to send somebody to go get the trophy. They said,

685
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,439
Speaker 2: can you come on here? Like, nah, I can't do that.

686
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: We send somebody else. But that sparked I think we

687
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 2: did the Justice Conference resort of just four years then

688
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: and it's now picking back up after COVID and he's

689
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 2: been a huge champion of restorative justice and inside he

690
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: started a club all these sorts of things.

691
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 4: Is he able to get out and join the conference

692
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 4: in person or is it virtually all virtual?

693
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: Initially we did a taping and now we can probably

694
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: do live stream. They're allowing us. And what we're finding

695
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 2: now is that that is sparking creativity among our students

696
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 2: to say, all right, I've harmed. What do I have

697
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 2: to do to help repair that harm? And that's when

698
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: some guys years ago said, you know what, we've a

699
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: lot of us have been pretty violent against women. What

700
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 2: do we do? We would like to grow vegetables and

701
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: donate the vegetables to organizations that work with abused women.

702
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: And we're like, okay, great idea. So yeah, so they

703
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: started a donation guard to say how do we give back?

704
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 2: Because they they they have limited opportunities and resources, but

705
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: this is what they could do. That sparked a lot

706
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 2: of thinking on their hearts. They often want to make cards,

707
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: sympathy cards for people they often they believe or not.

708
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: A lot of prisoners knit in crochet and there's there's

709
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 2: a crochet club.

710
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 3: They're not making the other guy's not making fun of

711
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 3: them for this.

712
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: Well, you go into the room and there's all these

713
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: guys in there with all their tattoos and anything else,

714
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 2: and they're literally all crucheting and talking. And they would

715
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: donate scarves, mittens to like children's non profit children's things.

716
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 2: They would they looking for ways to give back in

717
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: a way that says I'm sorry, I'm sorry. If I

718
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 2: could do it over, I would but I can't, but

719
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 2: maybe they can do this. And so in some ways,

720
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: in our minds it might be a very small gesture

721
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 2: of vegetable, but there it's a big deal.

722
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 4: Well, and that's one of the things we're trying to

723
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 4: break with an army and normal folks, is if there

724
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 4: are millions of us doing small things.

725
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 3: Yep, it's a different country.

726
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: Well. And because in prison it's an environment of scarcity,

727
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 2: and so what that does is it creates in some

728
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: ways greediness. And so if I can take, I will

729
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 2: because I may never get another chance. And so a

730
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: lot of guys, if they grew vegetables, they would want

731
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 2: to keep it all because especially the food's not great.

732
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: And so for a guy to say, I'm willing to

733
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: work hard all summer, I'm willing to do this and

734
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,479
Speaker 2: give it all away is just not the culture there.

735
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: You just don't do that.

736
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 5: We'll be right back.

737
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: Action. It's against policy for a prisoner to give something

738
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: to another prisoner. However, our students create care packages for

739
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 2: incoming students. So when we have a new cohort of freshmen,

740
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: they greet them all and they say, here's a care package.

741
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 2: It don't have snacks, and a toothbrush and everything that

742
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: they normally would have to buy in the prison. And

743
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: these students are just dumbfounded. They're like, I just had

744
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 2: a guy telling me he because I've been locked up

745
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: thirty years, and he said, I got my care package.

746
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 2: And I just didn't know what to think or do

747
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: a stunned because nobody's done that ever for me. But

748
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 2: they're doing it as.

749
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 4: A well about a lot like a lot of the

750
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 4: you know, when he was coaching him and asses like

751
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 4: a lot of these young men have never.

752
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 3: Experienced a hug before. Yes, yes, I kind of love

753
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 3: from anybody.

754
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: Yes, And so I think it's a way for our

755
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: students to say, there's been a lot taken from a

756
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: lot of people. How do we begin to address that?

757
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 2: And so to us it might be not you know, wow,

758
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: what we do a toothbrush? There? That stuff you got

759
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,959
Speaker 2: to pay for And if you're only making at best

760
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: three dollars and thirty three sense of day and you

761
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: know you have to buy hygiene stuff that's taking up

762
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: a lot of your money.

763
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 4: It's important to stress too. I mean, a small thing

764
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 4: like that can really change someone's life. Like there's a

765
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 4: guy Bill and I know who put himself in a

766
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 4: foster carritage fourteen. Interestingly, now he's got a billion dollar company.

767
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 4: He gives one hundred percent of the profits away to charity. Wow,

768
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 4: kind of you figured I made enough money. I don't

769
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 4: need to make any more of someone challenge him, where's

770
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 4: your financial finish line in life?

771
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 3: He's like, all right, I met it. A percent of

772
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 3: the profits from now on our gods see.

773
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 4: But like when he was a kid, actually before he

774
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 4: got I think it was an orphanage at this point,

775
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 4: a guy gave him one hundred dollars bill. Right, She's

776
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 4: alone there at Christmas in the orphanage, like a lot

777
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 4: of the other kids would still go to like distant

778
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 4: relatives for Christmas. He's like one of the only kids

779
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 4: there in this guy like slipps, you know, a card

780
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,919
Speaker 4: with one hundred dollars bill in to a stranger saying

781
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 4: I love you.

782
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: I love you.

783
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 4: And it's just like he to this day. If you

784
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 4: ask him to tell this story breaks down crime. Yes,

785
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 4: I mean it's so one hundred dollars or a care package.

786
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 4: I mean, you really can change the trajectory of somebody,

787
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 4: you know what.

788
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: I believe that after watching these guys almost a decade

789
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 2: now it because again, a prison is an environment of scarcity.

790
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: It can only be simple things. That's all they've got.

791
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: And so when I watch that happen, I'm thinking, my word,

792
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 2: we've got so much stuff out here and we're kind

793
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 2: of jaded to it all. And just like gift card

794
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: again for whatever will be well there, I had a

795
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 2: guy he found a vending card for a vending machine,

796
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: had twenty dollars on it. Okay, now again in prison,

797
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,919
Speaker 2: if you found twenty dollars, you're rich. That's a lot

798
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: of money on a card, he said. Normally in prison,

799
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: you find the vending card, you grab it, and you

800
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: run and now good for you. You got twenty bucks. He's like,

801
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: went back to mysel side of my bunk, and I

802
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 2: couldn't live with myself. I can't do I can't just

803
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 2: keep this. And he said, after beating this Calvin program, goes,

804
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: I started to think what do I do? What do

805
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: I do? And he said, well, I decided to think

806
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: what would Plato do or what would Jesus do? And

807
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 2: he said I had to give it back, So he SAEs,

808
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 2: I went to the guy and I said, you dropped

809
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 2: your vending card and he goes, oh, I know I

810
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,959
Speaker 2: lost it. And he goes here and he goes, why

811
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: are you giving this back to me? You don't do that,

812
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 2: he said, I have to. I mean twenty bucks, but

813
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 2: to them it's everything. And again it's so countercultural. I

814
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: had two guys.

815
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 4: And sometimes it comes back to you, didn't the guy

816
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 4: buy him a popper or something?

817
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: Yes? And I had two guys who were overpaid on

818
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 2: their check from the facility for their job. They went

819
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: to the classification person who oversees that, and said, you

820
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: overpaid me. You have to take it. And she like what.

821
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 2: She goes, I've done this for almost thirty years.

822
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 3: I've never had that it's time to release that man

823
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 3: from prison.

824
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

825
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 3: If you reached that stage, that.

826
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 4: Tells you I could talk about your programs forever. But

827
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 4: let's move to the person the victim's mother reached out

828
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 4: to them.

829
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: Right. So, we got a guy in our program and

830
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: he's a person of a vibrant Christian faith and we

831
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: were excited to have him the program. He was doing well,

832
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: and I'd say after a couple of years in the program,

833
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 2: he came to me one day and said, I need

834
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,919
Speaker 2: to talk to somebody about this. But my victim's mother

835
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 2: has always wanted to reconcile with me, and I think

836
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: I'm ready.

837
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 3: So do you just ignored kind of her outreach for years?

838
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: Fifteen years? Wow, totally ignored her. I said okay, and

839
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: he goes, but I'm terrified. What do I do? And

840
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: I said, well, how would you normally communicate with her?

841
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 2: He goes, I'd call If I was going to do that,

842
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: she always said call me. I said, we'll call her.

843
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 2: So he did and they talked. They cried, and he said,

844
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry she forgave him, and that started this

845
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: relationship and all of a sudden, you know, they're talking

846
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: weekly often every other day kind of thing. And eventually

847
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 2: she said to him, she goes vail. She goes, you

848
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: lost your mother while you've been incarcerated, and I lost

849
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 2: my son, the son that he killed, And she said,

850
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: would you be my son? And I would like to

851
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: be your mother? And he said okay. So he calls

852
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: her mother Jerline, and now his children go to her

853
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 2: house for holidays because that's grandmother. And we finally were

854
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 2: able to get her in the prison for his graduation

855
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: and they hadn't physically seen each other. Last time you

856
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 2: had seen her was in the courtroom on the day

857
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: he was sentenced, and so they embraced. I was there

858
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: and they cried, and we cried and they embraced, and

859
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: you know, it's just this unbelievable act of reconciliation. And

860
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 2: it feels like it's right out of the New Testament.

861
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like, you know what the Kingdom of

862
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 2: God is like, It's like a mother who had her

863
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: son killed and she embraced the murderer.

864
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 4: How about this is a little bit better than buying

865
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 4: a yacht, buying a second house, having a million dollars,

866
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 4: Like you're tearing up telling the story and what I'm

867
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 4: feeling emotionally like, this is better than anything else.

868
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 2: What would you get for it? It's the point of life, right,

869
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 2: And he has been such a good steward of this

870
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 2: gift that he's received, and he acknowledged that he doesn't

871
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: deserve this. So he's been so good about telling this

872
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: story in such a way that he deserves none of this.

873
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 2: And yet it's a gift, and he doesn't want to

874
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: be he doesn't want to squander this gift, and so

875
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 2: he has been so active now in his ministry with

876
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 2: other prisoners about encouraging them to possibly find a way

877
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: to reach out and say I'm sorry, And you know,

878
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: I've found the people we meet on the news, the

879
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: victims or the people around the victims, what we hear

880
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: in the news is often anger. But the guy rot,

881
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 2: you know, he took so and so's life and he

882
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,919
Speaker 2: shouldn't have a life. And I understand that, I really,

883
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I get it. I don't know what I

884
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 2: would do exactly if someone I loved was taken, but

885
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: those are the stories we hear. The truth of the

886
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: matter is, statistically, most people who have become a victim

887
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: of crime in some fashion, they the biggest thing they

888
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: want to know is why they would actually love to

889
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: hear from the perpetrator, Why why'd you do that? What's

890
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 2: going on? And they were looking for a way to

891
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 2: unburden themselves to some degree of this. And so it's

892
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 2: really the minority we know that want to continue to

893
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,479
Speaker 2: feel hatred, revenge, But those are the ones we often

894
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 2: hear about.

895
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 3: I've never heard that before.

896
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that we know that for most victims, they're looking

897
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: for a way to have some resolution, and.

898
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 4: The hatred of Sure you've heard this line is like

899
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 4: drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

900
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you know the people that I've met,

901
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: the guy who just got out a month ago, the

902
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 2: man he killed his brother. Okay, so the brother of

903
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 2: the victim. This has been thirty five years. He was

904
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: on a news clip recently when he heard that this

905
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: guy is getting out. He was so filled yet with

906
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 2: anger and like he should never get out on what

907
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 2: he's taken. And then he was crying about it. And

908
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 2: I thought, that guy is still as what just almost

909
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 2: destroyed on the day he heard about it. He's been

910
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 2: living that way for thirty five years and he cannot

911
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: let it go. And I thought, oh my word, this

912
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,919
Speaker 2: guy is It's like he could I wish he could

913
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 2: just unload this, but he's just not gonna let it happen.

914
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: So I think the guy that was shot his daughter

915
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 2: forgave him the murderer and actually reached out to him

916
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 2: and said, I don't know who you've become or what

917
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 2: you are, but I just feel the need to reach

918
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: out to you. And then she learned that, oh, he

919
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: converted to Christianity. He's going into ministry. And then they

920
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: started communicating, and she said, I just needed to know

921
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: whatever became.

922
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 5: Of you, We'll be right back.

923
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 4: Let's talk about what all this has done for you

924
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 4: and the primarily the program has to help them because listen,

925
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 4: our listeners know Bill. Bill constantly says your outreach for

926
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 4: others just a thousand times more for you than it

927
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 4: actually does for them.

928
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 2: So I'm ordained in the press between church and I

929
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: did my seminary degree and all that, and over the

930
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 2: years I struggled working with your typical churches in terms

931
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,760
Speaker 2: of how is it that folks consider under the preaching

932
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 2: week after week and it just doesn't seem to make

933
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 2: a whole lot of difference.

934
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 3: You heard that.

935
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 4: I think it's MLK said church is not place you're

936
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 4: supposed to go to, but the place you go.

937
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 2: From, right, And you know, I can't myself in that

938
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 2: that that faith becomes a little blase and just kind

939
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 2: of you know, there's a certain form of personal piety.

940
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: But I thought, what about the bigger stuff, about the gospel,

941
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 2: the poor, the hungry. How can we never seem moved

942
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 2: enough to really do something? So when I started working

943
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 2: in the prison, there has literally not been a visit

944
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: goes by that I walk out going holy smokes. The

945
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: Gospel's real, God's doing stuff, lives are being changed, and

946
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 2: so it's become my kind of spiritual lifeline that you know,

947
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 2: Matthew twenty five, when Jesus says, when you visit the prisoner,

948
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 2: you're visiting me. It's almost sacramental. It's almost like you're

949
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 2: going and getting some of Jesus by showing up. And honestly,

950
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 2: that is exactly where it's been for me. So I

951
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 2: don't know what I would do now if they all

952
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: of a sudden said tomorrow you can never go into

953
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 2: a prison again, I don't know what to do. I'd

954
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 2: be like, wait a minute, No, this has been my lifeline.

955
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: They've given so much to me. It's kept my sense

956
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,919
Speaker 2: of faith and hope for the Kingdom alive. It's also

957
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 2: done this. When I was in college, I really wanted

958
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 2: to make a difference because I was reading king and

959
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: all these you know, I want to make a difference,

960
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 2: and I wanted to see things change and you know,

961
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 2: change the world. And when you work with something like

962
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: a Department of Corrections, which is a total institution, change

963
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 2: is really hard and it feels like you're constantly struggling fighting.

964
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 2: It's like you're punching a wall all the time. You

965
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 2: want that wall to be different. And I'd say until

966
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 2: about a couple of years ago, it really started to

967
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 2: impact me physically. I mean, I had symptoms of a

968
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 2: heart attack and the doctor says it's stress. I mean,

969
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 2: as all these things were happening, I'm like, what's going

970
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 2: on here? And they said, you're way stressed out, more

971
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: than you need to be. And I realized, because I

972
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: was working so hard to change things, I was more

973
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 2: interested in the outcome as opposed to just being faithful

974
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 2: in the moment. And I remember a couple of the

975
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:17,240
Speaker 2: guys said, you gotta change your way of thinking on this. See,

976
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 2: we've learned how to do time. We've learned how to

977
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 2: think of the day as how do I be faithful today?

978
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 2: What do I do today to make a difference? And

979
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 2: we doubt who knows if we're ever going to change

980
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: the Apartment of Corrections, But that's not for us to figure out.

981
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: And I remembered I thought, oh my word, I've not

982
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: learned how to do time.

983
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 3: These prisoners are teaching you how to do time.

984
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 2: They are there's an expression they use, yeah to learn

985
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 2: how to jail, which is to say that when you

986
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 2: learn how to jail, you realize there are so many

987
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 2: things out of your control. And so you got to

988
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: make a decision. Are you gonna let those things make

989
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 2: you worse, let them destroy you, let them alter you

990
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 2: in a way that you never wanted, or are you

991
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 2: going to look for a way, uh, to be strategic,

992
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: maybe even subversive at times, but also to come out

993
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:11,919
Speaker 2: as the sort of person you know you need to be.

994
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 2: And that's why I was missing, And so these guys

995
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 2: help me, H, recognize my finiteness. That doesn't matter if

996
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 2: I have PhD, doesn't matter if I There's some things

997
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: I just can't change or do. And so then what

998
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 2: And that's when I fully began to appreciate our callings

999
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 2: be faithful in the moment. Yeah, we work for big change,

1000
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 2: of course we do, but really our callings be faithful

1001
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 2: in the moment. And if we get the big change,

1002
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: glory to God. If we don't, glory to God that

1003
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 2: I've been able to be faithful in what's been given

1004
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 2: to me this day and I'm learning how to do time.

1005
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 4: It's reminds we we had on Paul Young, the author

1006
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 4: of The Shack. Oh yeah, but he's got a great

1007
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:02,720
Speaker 4: line of h stop future tripping, worrying about the future,

1008
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 4: stop past tripping. That's what most of us do and

1009
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 4: need to live in the grace of the day. And

1010
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 4: if we're not living in the grace of the day,

1011
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:10,839
Speaker 4: we're robbing people.

1012
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 2: Yes, of God and ourselves. Right, that's spot I get

1013
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 2: that better now. And again, I feel like there's so

1014
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 2: much to learn from people that we think there's not

1015
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 2: much to learn from. So there are certain people, you know,

1016
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,879
Speaker 2: I really first began to experience that when I work

1017
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 2: with homeless people in Atlanta years ago. That you know,

1018
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 2: there's lots of good reasons you think, well, someone's homeless,

1019
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 2: what's wrong. They can't manage life, they can't do this,

1020
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: they can't do that. Why would I take good advice

1021
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 2: from them? Because there's not good advice there. And then

1022
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,879
Speaker 2: that's when you learn everybody has a story. Nobody grows

1023
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 2: up saying my goal is to be homeless, and you

1024
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 2: realize that a lot of people are forced into situations

1025
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 2: where they have to figure things out about this situation

1026
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 2: and do their best to be human. And it's been

1027
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 2: thrust upon them maybe or even they did make bad decisions.

1028
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 2: And so I was remembering that now recently again that

1029
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 2: we probably all missed great opportunities to learn from people

1030
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:30,479
Speaker 2: because we don't think they have something to teach us.

1031
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a former boss I do not get along

1032
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 4: with that. There's a lie like you can learn something

1033
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 4: from everybody and seeing it that way, and that's really

1034
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 4: difficult when it is you have a bad relationship with

1035
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 4: somebody that there is still something I can We got

1036
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 4: to move on to other stuff. You and I could

1037
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 4: go all day talking about this stuff. How many students

1038
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 4: have you guys had so far in total? How many graduates?

1039
00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:58,839
Speaker 4: And where are you guys going from?

1040
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have just under one hundred students right now.

1041
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 2: I think it's ninety three or four, and we've got

1042
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 2: about seventy two or three graduates. So we're coming up

1043
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 2: on our two hundred mark or ten years into it.

1044
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 2: Our original vision in sending out teams, we're doing now

1045
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 2: and it works. So it's always one of those things

1046
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 2: where early on we had to go to donors and

1047
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 2: say here's the vision, and they would say, well, do

1048
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 2: you think it will work? And we're like, oh, we

1049
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 2: think so we had no idea and you kind of

1050
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 2: really stepping out in faith there. Well, now we know

1051
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 2: it works. So what we've been pleasantly surprised by is, hey,

1052
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 2: guess what, we have a stable program and the vision

1053
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 2: was on target. But then we say, but we've also

1054
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 2: learned that there's a whole lot more we could be

1055
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: considering and doing. So it's not mission creep as much

1056
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 2: as it's mission development. Now we're getting a better sense

1057
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 2: of what the mission is. The goal right now is

1058
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:08,919
Speaker 2: to begin to offer pre college educational opportunities. So while

1059
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 2: we've figured out how to help a guy who struggles

1060
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 2: in writing get through college, we realize, well, it would

1061
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 2: be that much better if we could have a year

1062
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 2: with him before college. He could really hit the ground

1063
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 2: running then.

1064
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 4: And a lot of your one of your requirements that

1065
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 4: they have a GED or right school education first, right.

1066
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, so even that, how do we accelerate

1067
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 2: that opportunity for guys to earn a GED. This is

1068
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 2: no different from what universities or colleges do with high schools.

1069
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 2: So a high school says, to whatever university or college,

1070
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 2: what do you want? What do we need to be

1071
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 2: doing here, and now we're there, we can do that.

1072
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 2: We can start to say what needs to happen prior

1073
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 2: to all this. In the same way, we have an

1074
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 2: opportunity not only to offer an academic experience, but now

1075
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 2: I have a bunch of graduates that I can pair

1076
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 2: alongside with these guys. They can do pure mentoring all

1077
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So we're actually going to start

1078
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: this June one. It's called a Wayfinder program. It's going

1079
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 2: to be a year long. They'll earn eight academic credits

1080
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 2: that are transferable, and they're going to do all sorts

1081
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 2: of mentoring and programming that's not academic with our graduates,

1082
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 2: and so think of it as a year of formation.

1083
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 2: Then these guys by next fall. Actually this years will

1084
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 2: be the next fall, because we'll have twelve schools in

1085
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 2: our consortium. Just like any high school student. Now we

1086
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 2: can sit down and say where do you want to

1087
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 2: go to school, what's the program that's attractive to you.

1088
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 2: You should feel confident that you're now ready to start,

1089
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 2: not saying you won't have challenges. But the guys we

1090
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 2: found this was really always interesting to me. You got

1091
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 2: all these guys who are tough guys, gangsters, the whole bit.

1092
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 2: And they go to college and you know, the first

1093
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 2: course is they're absolutely lutely terrified of is public speaking?

1094
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 3: Me too?

1095
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 4: Yet here I am.

1096
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 2: They're terrified. You know, they've done all sorts of stuff

1097
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 2: that we would be terrified to do, and it's public speaking.

1098
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 2: And then you begin to ask them and they say, what,

1099
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 2: I don't want to fail. I failed that everything I've

1100
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 2: ever done. This is my opportunity to be successful. Now

1101
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm gonna fail. So their biggest fears failure.

1102
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 2: So if we could have a year or so with

1103
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: them to work with them on that, they would start

1104
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 2: their college career like a lot of high schoolers that

1105
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: I know, do you've got this. You know you're gonna

1106
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 2: be able to do this because we've been telling you

1107
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 2: that through high school for years. My two kids, you

1108
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 2: know you're gonna be fine. It's work, but you know

1109
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 2: now you can do this, So they don't start college

1110
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 2: fearful about the academic part.

1111
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 4: Let's wrap with this question of you guys are crushing

1112
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 4: in Michigan, but it would be great to have this

1113
01:00:56,120 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 4: all over the country. And actually my previous I interviewed

1114
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,439
Speaker 4: Sean Pica the founder of Hudson Link.

1115
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I know, Sean, you know.

1116
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 4: And that's not a Christian program, that's general education. So

1117
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 4: I want to stress that too for people who aren't

1118
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 4: Christian or your guys, program is that there's also other

1119
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 4: models like Hudson.

1120
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 3: Link out there.

1121
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 4: We probably actually should have a Yeah, there's some really

1122
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 4: great programs. But so noemore, you can check out those

1123
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 4: other things. But with you guys too, Like, what would

1124
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 4: your encouragement be. I mean, we're sitting here in Memphis,

1125
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 4: somebody in Memphis.

1126
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 3: Here is that story? Hey, is this going on in Memphis?

1127
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 3: What's the next step?

1128
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 4: And I mean one thing I think we need to

1129
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 4: stress better in the podcast sometimes. I mean you may

1130
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 4: be teaching seminary or teaching a college and you can

1131
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 4: like actually be the person going to go implement this. Yes,

1132
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 4: you could also be a listener who happens to be

1133
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 4: friends with them and send them the story and try

1134
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 4: to get them engaged on it. But what's what's your

1135
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 4: advice for people listening who might find this an interest?

1136
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 2: So here's my advice. It's a lot easier than you think.

1137
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 2: Politically speaking, across the country, we're in a good position

1138
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 2: right now. A lot of states are at a loss

1139
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 2: of what to do, and a lot of states don't

1140
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 2: want to keep spending the money that it costs. Michigan

1141
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 2: spends one fifth of its yearly operating budget on incarceration,

1142
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: which is two billion dollars. So every state would say,

1143
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 2: what do you got If you've got something that can

1144
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 2: lower that cost, I'm all in. So we get biparers

1145
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 2: and support on this. So we're in a good position

1146
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 2: right now. The country wants prison reform at a political level.

1147
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 2: Maybe not always at the street level, but at the

1148
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 2: political level. So the wins that you're back there two

1149
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: we now as opposed over ten years ago. We now

1150
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: have a lot of models. It could be Hudson lank

1151
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 2: could be the Barred Prison, it could be Calvin Prison Initiative.

1152
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 2: We've got a lot of models all across the country.

1153
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 2: So we literally can go into an area now and say, Okay,

1154
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 2: what do we got here? What kind of school do

1155
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 2: we have? Is it a community college, is at university?

1156
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 2: Is it a state school? Is it a private school?

1157
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 2: What do we got? All we mean is a few

1158
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 2: people with interest. Now pel grants are available, those are

1159
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 2: made now fully available Obama made it a pilot program,

1160
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 2: Trump continued it, and then Biden signed it. So now

1161
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 2: the department US Department of Corrections will offer PEL grants

1162
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 2: to prisoners that will cover a lot of the cost,

1163
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 2: so funding isn't as big of an issue. We're working

1164
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,919
Speaker 2: with our state right now to close the gap. PELL

1165
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 2: covers this much if we got about a twenty five

1166
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 2: one hundred and three thousand dollars grant from the state

1167
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 2: who closed the gap. So now money is also there.

1168
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:46,439
Speaker 2: So the wins that are back right now to say,

1169
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 2: if you truly have an interest for this and you

1170
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 2: know the right people, we can literally talk about starting

1171
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 2: a program. And we now have a model where we

1172
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 2: all know what these schools tend to do. They don't

1173
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 2: start with a BA. They start with a non accredited,

1174
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 2: non credit bearing effort and they get some props. We're

1175
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 2: just excited about it. Go in, teach whatever you want,

1176
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 2: eight weeks, ten weeks, a semester, whatever you want to do,

1177
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 2: just do it. We do that for about a year

1178
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 2: or two. Everyone gets their sea legs and then you

1179
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 2: ramp up to the BA. So we actually created a

1180
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 2: manual several years ago. We created a manual for schools,

1181
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 2: and we designed it for both private schools, Christian schools,

1182
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 2: state schools. Whatever about how to do this? All?

1183
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 5: Right?

1184
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 4: If people want to contact you, Todd, you sound pretty

1185
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 4: open to it.

1186
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 2: Let's bring this to are all open. So my email

1187
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 2: address is last named Choffe c I oh F FI

1188
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 2: at Calvin c A l v N dot edu. I

1189
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 2: would most welcome your emails contacts, and so one thing

1190
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 2: we committed ourselves to when we started the program. As

1191
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 2: we said, we've been blessed by donors. We've been blessed

1192
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 2: by this opportunity, and so anybody who needs our help,

1193
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 2: we will do our absolute best together.

1194
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 3: Thank you, Tom, and thanks for making the effort to

1195
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 3: come to that.

1196
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: Thank you so much appreciate it, and thank you for

1197
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 1: joining us this week. And thankfully I'm joining you this week.

1198
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: Uh Todd, Chaffee or other guests have inspired you in

1199
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 1: general or better yet, to take action by trying to

1200
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 1: start something like Calvin Prison Initiative in your state, donating

1201
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: to them or something else entirely, please let us know

1202
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 1: I really want to hear about it. You can write

1203
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: me anytime at Bill at normal Folks dot us, and

1204
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 1: I promise you I will respond If you enjoyed this episode, Guys,

1205
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: seriously share it with friends, share it on social tell

1206
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 1: people bout us, subscribe to the podcast, rate it and

1207
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: review it so people know how great we are. Join

1208
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: the army at normalfolks dot us. Consider becoming a Premium

1209
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: member there. Do any and all of these things that

1210
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 1: will help us grow an army of normal folks. The

1211
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 1: more listeners, the more people in the army, the.

1212
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 5: More impact we can have.

1213
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 1: Thanks to our producer, Iron Light Labs, I'm Bill Courtney.

1214
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 1: Until next time, do what you can