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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront the problems in their lives and

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Speaker 1: then give them actionable advice and have them report back

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Speaker 1: to let us know what happened when they did what

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Speaker 1: we suggested.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a woman whose whirlwind romance led to an

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Speaker 1: unexpected pregnancy and subsequent abortion wonders how to let go

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Speaker 1: of her resentment of her partner.

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Speaker 3: The depression was actually a defining factor in why he

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Speaker 3: wanted me to get another abortion. He felt like I

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Speaker 3: was not emotionally capable of taking care of a child.

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Speaker 3: That was the exact thing he said to me, and

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Speaker 3: that really stuck with me. Maybe he's right.

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Speaker 2: First a quick note, therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 2: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it

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Speaker 2: is not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 2: or treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to

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Speaker 2: let iHeartMedia use it in part or in full, and

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Speaker 2: we may edit it for length and clarity. In the

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Speaker 2: sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed for the

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Speaker 2: privacy of our guests. Hi Laurie, Hi guy, What do

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Speaker 2: we have in our mailbox today?

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Speaker 1: So today we have a letter from someone who is

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Speaker 1: writing in about an issue in her marriage that's been

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Speaker 1: going on for a few years. And it goes like this,

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Speaker 1: Dear therapists, My husband and I have been married for

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Speaker 1: four months, deciding to marry shortly after finding out we

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Speaker 1: were expecting our second child. When we first met three

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Speaker 1: years ago, it was wonderful. We use the term soulmates

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Speaker 1: in exchange. I love use on date three. The first

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Speaker 1: eight months or so were some of the best months

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Speaker 1: of my life, but it's gone downhill from there. Twelve

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Speaker 1: months in we got pregnant and I had an abortion.

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Speaker 1: It was incredibly difficult for me emotionally and caused a

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Speaker 1: lot of problems in our relationship. Having struggled with depression

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Speaker 1: and anxiety for the majority of my life, I quickly

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Speaker 1: slipped into a deep depression, which my partner did not

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Speaker 1: know how to deal with. I was not on birth

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Speaker 1: control at the time, and I was very clear after

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Speaker 1: the abortion that if I were to get pregnant again,

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Speaker 1: I was going to have the baby. Fast forward three

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Speaker 1: months after the abortion, still deepen my depression, and I

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Speaker 1: find out I am pregnant again. Despite our previous conversations

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Speaker 1: and his knowing how difficult the abortion was, he still

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Speaker 1: wanted me to have an abortion. I refused, and here

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Speaker 1: we are two years later, married with a two year

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Speaker 1: old son and a daughter on the way. He has

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Speaker 1: turned into an incredibly loyal and supportive husband, an involved father,

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Speaker 1: and a great provider for our family, but emotionally we

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Speaker 1: have never recovered. We were in couples counseling for a

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Speaker 1: year and recently started up again, but I'm worried by

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Speaker 1: how little progress we seem to have made, and wonder

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Speaker 1: how much of that is my own fault, since I'm

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Speaker 1: the one who continue feels like there's something missing in

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Speaker 1: our relationship, in addition to the eerily similar relationship qualities

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Speaker 1: that exist between my parents' marriage and my own. I

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Speaker 1: need help understanding which parts of our lack of emotional

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Speaker 1: connection are due to my own emotional blocks and what

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Speaker 1: steps I can take to work towards a loving, fulfilled relationship.

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Speaker 2: Nora Noura is in a really difficult spot, and it

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Speaker 2: sounds like she's been struggling for a while, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not entirely sure what the struggle is about. I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure if she's still depressed and whether she's getting treatment

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Speaker 2: for that. And I'm also not sure why they didn't

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Speaker 2: use birth control and he still wanted her to have

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Speaker 2: an abortion, So that's a little confusing to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know where that miscommunication happened between them

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Speaker 1: where she said, if I get pregnant again, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to have an abortion, and then she did get

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Speaker 1: pregnant again, they weren't using birth control, and yet he

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Speaker 1: asked her to have abortioning and then I don't know

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Speaker 1: where he is with the fact that she didn't have

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Speaker 1: the abortion. They ended up having the child and getting married.

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Speaker 1: It seems like he's really moved into a place of

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Speaker 1: embracing his role as a father and as a husband.

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Speaker 1: But it's hard to know what the block is and

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Speaker 1: whether it's coming from both sides emotionally, or whether there

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Speaker 1: is something with her family history and her history of

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Speaker 1: anxiety and depression. So let's go talk to Nora and

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Speaker 1: find out what's going on. You're listening to Dear Therapists

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Speaker 1: for My Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapist. Hi Nora,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Hi Nora, Hi, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: You are very welcome. So we read YOLETA, things were

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Speaker 2: going really well with your then boyfriend now husband, it

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Speaker 2: sounds like, and then you got pregnant, and then you

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Speaker 2: had this conversation about what to do. Tell us about

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Speaker 2: that conversation.

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Speaker 3: So it started before we even got pregnant. I went

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Speaker 3: off birth control a few years ago, and the conversation

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Speaker 3: we had had was if something happened, we would have

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Speaker 3: an abortion. Like I was comfortable with that decision, and

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Speaker 3: then you know that actually happens and it's an entirely

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Speaker 3: different thing. So it was a lot harder. In that moment,

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Speaker 3: I felt like I had given him my word that

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Speaker 3: if something happened, we would not have a child that

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Speaker 3: we weren't expecting. But in that moment, it was a

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Speaker 3: lot harder for me than I realized. Like his exact

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Speaker 3: response was at the time, which was very heartless response,

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Speaker 3: which he acknowledges, And his exact response was, let's get

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Speaker 3: that shit vacuumed out, like it was like nothing, just

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Speaker 3: an easy, easy decision.

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Speaker 2: You're saying that you went off birth control, and in

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Speaker 2: doing so, you decided if something happened, you would get

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Speaker 2: an abortion. So there's actually a very decent likelihood that

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Speaker 2: something will happen if not on verse controls. So how

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Speaker 2: thought out was that on your end?

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Speaker 3: I honestly never expected it to happen. My ex that

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Speaker 3: I was with before him, he had a vasectomy so

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Speaker 3: we didn't have to worry about it. And I have

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Speaker 3: a long history of struggling with mental health issues, and

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Speaker 3: birth control made it significantly worse for me. Once I

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Speaker 3: went off it first time and I realized how much

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Speaker 3: it had impacted me, I was like, I can't go

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Speaker 3: back to this.

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Speaker 1: If you both didn't want to have children, why wouldn't

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Speaker 1: he use a condom?

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Speaker 3: He did, And I think that as time went on,

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Speaker 3: it became like, oops, we forgot here, Oops we forgot there,

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Speaker 3: And then we both honestly kind of felt like we

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Speaker 3: couldn't get pregnant. It was just us not being responsible

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Speaker 3: about it. That's where a lot of my hesitations came forward.

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Speaker 3: When I did actually get pregnant, was like, well, like

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Speaker 3: we caused this, We are capable of raising this child,

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Speaker 3: We are capable of, you know, giving it a loving home.

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Speaker 3: And here we are saying, like, just because we said

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Speaker 3: we weren't going to have it, that we.

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Speaker 1: Aren't going to How old were you both at that time.

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Speaker 3: I was twenty eight and he was twenty nine.

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Speaker 2: Was the decision we're not going to have kids yet,

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Speaker 2: or was the decision we're not going to have kids?

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Speaker 3: It was a little of both. So actually, when we

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Speaker 3: first met, we had no intention of ever having kids,

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Speaker 3: Like both of us had decided on our own separately

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Speaker 3: that we did not want kids. When we met, it

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Speaker 3: was like a whirlwind of events. On our third day,

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Speaker 3: we exchanged I love yous like I didn't believe in

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Speaker 3: soulmates before any of that, But it was just emotions

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Speaker 3: we'd never felt before. And you know, throughout the next

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Speaker 3: year we kind of slowly started planning these events that

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Speaker 3: we thought we never wanted kids, and all of a

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Speaker 3: sudden we're like, oh, you know, I could see us

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Speaker 3: having kids in five ten years.

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Speaker 1: And so did both of you think it's unlikely that

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Speaker 1: you would get pregnant even though you weren't using birth control?

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Speaker 1: And why did you think it was unlikely?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I think both of us had been probably him especially,

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Speaker 3: had been careless in the past with birth control and

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Speaker 3: had never had anything happen, and so I think he

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Speaker 3: was very much under the assumption that there was something

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Speaker 3: wrong and that he couldn't get someone pregnant.

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Speaker 1: So then you get pregnant unexpectedly, and you guys had

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Speaker 1: had a conversation that if that happened, you would not

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Speaker 1: have the baby. But you then in the moment, because

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Speaker 1: it's one thing to imagine something in another to be

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Speaker 1: in a situation, you felt differently. And what were those

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Speaker 1: conversations like between the two of you. Was he able

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Speaker 1: to hear what was going on with you? Were you

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Speaker 1: able to hear what was going on with him? What

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Speaker 1: was that like at the time.

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Speaker 3: At the time, I think that we very much struggled

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Speaker 3: with our communication skills. We'd never been in that type

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Speaker 3: of situation where we really had to talk about anything serious.

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Speaker 3: It was fun and easy so I really don't think

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Speaker 3: we had the skills to like fully have a conversation

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Speaker 3: about that. I definitely communicated my hesitations and he definitely

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Speaker 3: like communicated his need to move forward with the original plan,

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Speaker 3: and that was really it. So at that time we

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Speaker 3: really didn't have the conversations we needed to.

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Speaker 1: Did you explain to him why it was important for

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Speaker 1: you to have the baby and did you understand why

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Speaker 1: it was important for him not to?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely did. Me understanding why it was important

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Speaker 3: for him not to was probably the biggest factor in it.

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Speaker 1: What were his reasons?

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Speaker 3: I think a big part of it is, you know,

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Speaker 3: the freedom you lose when you have a child, especially

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Speaker 3: for him being the man, and you know, this expectation

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Speaker 3: to provide was definitely very large for him, and so

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Speaker 3: I think that was a big part of it. Is

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Speaker 3: he realized he'd have to give up so much and

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Speaker 3: he wasn't ready for that. And he also had a

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Speaker 3: very difficult childhood with his parents. His mom died when

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Speaker 3: he was thirteen. His stepdad at the time, like wanted

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Speaker 3: nothing to do with him, sent him away to a

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Speaker 3: military camp right after he had just lost his mom,

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Speaker 3: So he had no real role models to know how

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Speaker 3: how to take care of a child, how to be

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Speaker 3: a father.

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Speaker 2: He had no idea, And how did you explain the

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Speaker 2: change for you? You went from I don't have kids, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I were on the same page, to no, I'm being

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Speaker 2: hesitant at an abortion.

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Speaker 3: I started noticing other people with kids, and then all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden, I was kind of like, I didn't

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Speaker 3: think I wanted this, but I think I want that.

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Speaker 3: That was like, is that going to subside once I'm

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Speaker 3: no longer pregnant And you really can't know until you're

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Speaker 3: in that situation.

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Speaker 2: And then you decide to get an abortion. Yes? And

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Speaker 2: was he with you?

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Speaker 3: He was there, He drove me, he paid for it.

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Speaker 3: He was supportive as much as he could. I was

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Speaker 3: definitely shut down about the process following the abortion, actually

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Speaker 3: on honestly a week before because I had really bad

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Speaker 3: morning sickness, so probably a month total, like barely got

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Speaker 3: out of bed other than to just get food. I

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Speaker 3: literally just worked from bed. I didn't take care of myself.

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Speaker 3: I didn't talk to anyone, Like I had friends texting

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Speaker 3: me like asking me what was going on. And I

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Speaker 3: was at the time, like terrified to talk to people

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Speaker 3: about that especially, some of my friends are not supportive

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Speaker 3: of abortion, so it was a very scary thing for

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Speaker 3: me to talk about.

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Speaker 1: So you didn't have anyone else who knew about this

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Speaker 1: other than your boyfriend.

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Speaker 3: Now, I told some friends after the fact, but before

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Speaker 3: I made the decision and before I had the abortion,

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Speaker 3: I did not have anyone that I talked to about it. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was definitely a lonely, lonely time.

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Speaker 1: When you say that he was there, meaning you said

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Speaker 1: he drove you there, he paid for it. Was he

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Speaker 1: able to be there for you emotionally?

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Speaker 3: I do think in his own way he was. I

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Speaker 3: think again, because we didn't really have the communication skills

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Speaker 3: to really talk about it. It was him being there

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Speaker 3: just by physically being there. He would stay in bed

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Speaker 3: and watch TV with me. He would work from bed

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Speaker 3: also because he also worked from home. His physical presence

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Speaker 3: was how he was being there for me because I

240
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Speaker 3: didn't have words to communicate how I was feeling at.

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Speaker 1: The time, and he didn't have words to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about how he was feeling or to inquire about

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Speaker 1: how you were feeling.

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Speaker 3: No, he's since early on, always struggled with emotions, so

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Speaker 3: I think that was just very fitting for him.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about that early connection that made you

247
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Speaker 1: say I love you to each other on the third date,

248
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Speaker 1: what was that about other than the fun and the infatuation.

249
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Speaker 1: Was there something deeper emotionally that you feel connected you

250
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Speaker 1: and that somehow got lost when this big crisis happened

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Speaker 1: in your relationship.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question, one that I've gone over so

253
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Speaker 3: many times and trying to figure out what it was,

254
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Speaker 3: what got lost? Where did it go? There was a

255
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,120
Speaker 3: level of comfort and enjoyment in his presence that I've

256
00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,880
Speaker 3: never felt with anyone. I have struggled with depression since

257
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Speaker 3: high school, and when I met him was by far

258
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Speaker 3: the happiest I've ever been in my entire life. And

259
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Speaker 3: we would talk about that because he knew a lot

260
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Speaker 3: about my past and how much I'd struggled, and when

261
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Speaker 3: I have conversations with him, it would be like I

262
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,400
Speaker 3: have never felt like this free, this comfortable, this happy.

263
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Speaker 3: A lot of people talk about honeymoon period and like

264
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Speaker 3: things do change. It's just I think it scares me

265
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,439
Speaker 3: that changed so much and that just feels like it's

266
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Speaker 3: completely gone, Like how do I get just any level

267
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Speaker 3: of that.

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Speaker 1: Back to where it was you talk about this history

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Speaker 1: of depression that you have, and he also, you said,

270
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Speaker 1: had a difficult upbringing. Do you think that part of

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Speaker 1: the connection and the comfort that you felt with him

272
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Speaker 1: was that he was also someone who had experienced depression, anxiety,

273
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Speaker 1: some of the things that felt familiar to you.

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Speaker 3: Based on the conversations we've had, he's had a very

275
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Speaker 3: hard time connecting to his emotions. So even if that

276
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Speaker 3: was the case, he would adamantly tell you it's not.

277
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Speaker 3: He really sees his childhood as not being traumatic, not

278
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Speaker 3: being that difficult.

279
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Speaker 1: So his mother died at thirteen, and then his stepfather

280
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Speaker 1: sent him to military school, but he's saying it wasn't

281
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Speaker 1: really that bad.

282
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Speaker 3: Nope, And then he was raised by his grandparents, who

283
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:12,400
Speaker 3: you know, weren't he didn't have.

284
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Speaker 1: Parents, right, And so sometimes a response to trauma is

285
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 1: that we can't access our emotions. So maybe it's more

286
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 1: comfortable for him than to acknowledge that there's some trauma

287
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Speaker 1: there that is blocking him from accessing his emotions.

288
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds very likely.

289
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Speaker 2: So you have the abortion, and then you get really

290
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,760
Speaker 2: depressed after you have the abortion, and you say to him,

291
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Speaker 2: if I get pregnant again, I'm not having another abution.

292
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Speaker 2: Tell us about that conversation.

293
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was actually at the request of my therapist,

294
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Speaker 3: who after talking to her about it, she's like, you

295
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,280
Speaker 3: need to have this conversation for the future and let

296
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,040
Speaker 3: him know how you're feeling. Let him know that if

297
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,520
Speaker 3: you get pregnant again, you want to keep the baby.

298
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Speaker 3: And I'm so grateful that she suggested that, because I

299
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 3: would be in an entirely different circumstance if she had it.

300
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,480
Speaker 3: So that was the conversation that we had later on

301
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,960
Speaker 3: than I told him, if I get pregnant again, I

302
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 3: want to keep the baby and I need you to

303
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,120
Speaker 3: know that moving forward.

304
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Speaker 2: And his response.

305
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 3: Was just okay, like very nonchalant.

306
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,360
Speaker 2: I agreed, yes completely. How clear was he about how

307
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,720
Speaker 2: difficult the abortion was for you at the time.

308
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Speaker 3: He understood how difficult it was for me. Immediately following

309
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,040
Speaker 3: this depression, I shook myself out of it. We literally

310
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Speaker 3: packed up all of our things, moved across the country

311
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Speaker 3: to the West Coast, and we're kind of going to

312
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,680
Speaker 3: just start over new there. And it was one month,

313
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Speaker 3: it might have been two months after moving there that

314
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Speaker 3: I found out I was pregnant again.

315
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Speaker 1: I think what guy was asking, how did your boyfriend

316
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Speaker 1: react to your depression after the abortion? You said you

317
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 1: fell into this deep depression. What was that like between

318
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Speaker 1: the two of you? You wrote in your letter he

319
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 1: really didn't understand it. Yeah, and yet it sounds like

320
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 1: maybe in his life when he feels depressed, he compartmentalizes that,

321
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Speaker 1: and maybe seeing someone depressed is really scary for him.

322
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Speaker 3: Yeah. I would definitely agree with that. It's been very

323
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,440
Speaker 3: difficult for him when he sees me in that place.

324
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Speaker 3: He has a cousin who is the same age as us,

325
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 3: who's basically his sister. He went to talk to her

326
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,360
Speaker 3: and ask her like what he could do. I hadn't

327
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 3: gone out of bed for weeks, and he was concerned

328
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 3: and he didn't know what to do. And she reached

329
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,720
Speaker 3: out to me and was talking to me about it,

330
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Speaker 3: which is how I know he was very concerned. He

331
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 3: just didn't know how to voice those to me.

332
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Speaker 2: We didn't tell you that he was very concerned. No,

333
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 2: could you tell that he was very concerned. I mean

334
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:49,520
Speaker 2: before the cousin, let you know.

335
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,640
Speaker 3: No, looking back now that I know it makes sense,

336
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,240
Speaker 3: but in the moment, I definitely felt very alone. I

337
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,840
Speaker 3: felt like he wasn't mourning this loss same way I was.

338
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,560
Speaker 3: I felt like he was experiencing relief instead of grief,

339
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,320
Speaker 3: and that was really hard.

340
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,080
Speaker 1: Did you talk to him about the grief that you

341
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 1: were experiencing.

342
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,800
Speaker 3: I did, but I don't remember how much I really

343
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,920
Speaker 3: said to him. I think even when I'm in that headspace,

344
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,440
Speaker 3: when I'm feeling very depressed, I don't want to talk

345
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,880
Speaker 3: about things either, So it was really easy for things

346
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,440
Speaker 3: to just get pushed under the rug.

347
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,560
Speaker 1: Were you talking to your therapist about it? Yeah, So

348
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 1: here's what's interesting. You're telling your therapist how you feel.

349
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,359
Speaker 1: He's telling his cousin how he feels. Yeah, but the

350
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,400
Speaker 1: two of you are not telling each other. You both

351
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,959
Speaker 1: have reasons, Oh, you know, we don't communicate, or when

352
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,120
Speaker 1: I'm depressed, I don't like to talk, but you talk

353
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,879
Speaker 1: to your therapist. It's that there's something about talking to

354
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,159
Speaker 1: each other where the block is.

355
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and this sometimes happens when two people

356
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 2: connect over. You said fun. We just had a lot

357
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,120
Speaker 2: of fun together. You said, you happier than you'd ever

358
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 2: been in those early times in the relationship. So he

359
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,960
Speaker 2: sees a very specific side of you. You see a

360
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 2: very specific side of him, and it's almost like you've

361
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,000
Speaker 2: contracted one another to be together in this fun state

362
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,879
Speaker 2: and then life gets really real. But that changes something

363
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 2: really fundamental between the two of you. You know how

364
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,679
Speaker 2: to be together and have fun, but you didn't know

365
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:32,560
Speaker 2: how to be together and deal with hardships, with real challenges,

366
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 2: and it really pivoted the flavor of the entire relationship

367
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,679
Speaker 2: into an area that you're both less comfortable with and

368
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 2: less familiar with with one another.

369
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 3: Yes, very much. So we got like thrown off the

370
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 3: deep end and were not prepared at all for that.

371
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,679
Speaker 2: And some of the subtext in your letter and in

372
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,600
Speaker 2: some of the things you're saying, and you're saying this

373
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,199
Speaker 2: about you, but it might be true of him as

374
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,879
Speaker 2: well that you're seeking how do we get back to

375
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,880
Speaker 2: the fun? And my question to you is is that

376
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,000
Speaker 2: where you want to get back to?

377
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 3: I think it's unrealistic to think that that level of

378
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 3: fun or the way that fun looked is even realistic

379
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 3: now with multiple kids. And it's something that's come up

380
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 3: again and again in our couples therapy sessions, is that

381
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 3: we are missing this fun, this excitement, this joy of

382
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 3: being around each other, the lightheartedness. Maybe that's not realistic

383
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,639
Speaker 3: to have when you have young children, and maybe there

384
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 3: needs to be a different form of connection that we find.

385
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 1: You can absolutely have fun and joy and connection and

386
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 1: delight in each other and enjoy each other's company as

387
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 1: parents with young kids, it's more about the fun that

388
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 1: you were having was one layer and it didn't go

389
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 1: very deep. Yeah, and maybe this lack of connection. Part

390
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 1: of it is that you need to have more fun together.

391
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 1: But part of it is that you need to learn

392
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 1: how to truly connect on a deeper level with each other.

393
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 1: And when you learn how to connect on a deeper

394
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,639
Speaker 1: level with each other, that will allow you to have

395
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 1: more fun with each other.

396
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 2: I would even add even to recognize when you are

397
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 2: connecting at a deeper level to one another, because I

398
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 2: think you probably are in certain moments even now, but

399
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 2: it might not look like it's supposed to quote unquote,

400
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,880
Speaker 2: or like it used to quote unquote. It feels different now.

401
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's probably a very big likelihood of that.

402
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 3: I definitely know my brain is very wired to think

403
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,880
Speaker 3: of the negatives, especially in relationships. I notice it all

404
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 3: the time, and I don't know how to shake myself

405
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 3: from it. So there's probably times where we are connecting

406
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 3: on deeper levels and I am I'm not noticing it.

407
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 3: I'm writing it off, I'm letting it skate by without

408
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 3: taking note of like that we are having these moments

409
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 3: and without holding onto them as well.

410
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 1: Can we go back for a minute just to catch

411
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,919
Speaker 1: us up on what happened after you got pregnant the

412
00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,439
Speaker 1: second time and you had already agreed that if you

413
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 1: got pregnant again you would have the baby, and then

414
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,880
Speaker 1: he asked you to have an abortion. Take us through

415
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 1: what those conversations were like.

416
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 3: I definitely feel like that was probably more of the

417
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: defining moment that changed our relationship, since I did feel

418
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,919
Speaker 3: like I communicated where I stood and felt like we

419
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 3: were on the same page. And then the time came

420
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 3: and I realized we weren't at all. When I found

421
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 3: out that I was pregnant, actually, the only reason I

422
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 3: found out was because my depression got even worse. It

423
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 3: was probably the worst it'd ever been. I was actively

424
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 3: planning committing suicide. I had told him like, I cannot

425
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,360
Speaker 3: live like this, I cannot live like this anymore.

426
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 1: Did your therapist know about that?

427
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 3: No, since we had just moved across the country. I

428
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 3: actually stopped seeing her, so it was probably not great

429
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 3: timing of that either.

430
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 1: Were you in any medication, No, I was not given

431
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 1: how you felt. Did you think that maybe you should

432
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 1: find a therapist at the time?

433
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 3: In the moment, I definitely felt like for the majority

434
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 3: of my life since high school, had been depressed for

435
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 3: good ten years. I mean, I've probably been on over

436
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 3: thirty different combinations of mood stabilizers and antidepressants and none

437
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 3: of them helped. So I felt like I had really like,

438
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 3: in my mind at the time, I had really given

439
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 3: life a fair chance, and this was just like the

440
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 3: defining moment in my mind. I've tried this, this is

441
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 3: not for me.

442
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: Did your boyfriend know about this or did you share

443
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 1: this with him your history with depression and suicidality.

444
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, he was very aware of all that. We'd

445
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 3: had a lot of conversations about that.

446
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 1: How did he respond to that and did you share

447
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 1: with him that this was happening in the present and

448
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: what was his response to that?

449
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 3: It was actually very surprising. That was the first time

450
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 3: I'd seen him cry. So he cried and was very

451
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 3: heartbroken that I would even consider that I think he

452
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 3: definitely took it as he's not enough. He put the

453
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 3: responsibility on him, and that was really really hard for him.

454
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 3: He's a very positive, happy person all the time, and

455
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 3: that was the first time I really saw a shift

456
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 3: in him like this heaviness took over him.

457
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 1: He's a positive, happy person all the time on the outside.

458
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, on the outside.

459
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 1: Yes, So there you are thinking you might want to

460
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: end your life and he's aware of that. Did the

461
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: two of you have a plan for how to get

462
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: you some help?

463
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 3: Yeah? He even mentioned that, like, do we need to

464
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 3: go get you committed somewhere with that help? And I

465
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 3: was like, no, I've been through this twice. It does

466
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 3: not help. And then I have a friend who she's

467
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,199
Speaker 3: a therapist, and I think he reached out to her

468
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 3: as like kind of a I don't know who else

469
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 3: can help you. But she had lived with us for

470
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 3: a while, so he was familiar with her, so he

471
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 3: called her. And then he also talked to his cousin

472
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 3: as well, who is a therapist also, so she called me.

473
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 3: So I had lots of conversations with people. I think

474
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 3: that he didn't know how to handle it, so he

475
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 3: basically reached out to other people and had them try

476
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 3: and handle it.

477
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 2: So he was really trying to get you help as

478
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: best he can. He really doesn't know what to do,

479
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: and he's actually calling people to try and find out, Well,

480
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: how can I help her? How can I help her?

481
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: He's expressing to you he's upset, he's crying for the

482
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 2: first time. How did that feel to you that he's

483
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: really worried, that he just cares a lot about you.

484
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 2: Did that come across to you?

485
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 3: Yeah? That was hard for me. Like I said, I

486
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 3: noticed that like heaviness set in for him, and I

487
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 3: had this moment of like, I think it honestly reaffirmed

488
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 3: a lot of my negative thinking in terms of how

489
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 3: badly it affected him and how quickly like I could

490
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 3: cause him to feel this bad and to be this worried.

491
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 2: So that's depression talking, right, Because depression, instead of saying,

492
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 2: here's this man who really loves me, even though he

493
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: doesn't express it well in words, he really loves me.

494
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 2: He's doing whatever he can and he doesn't have great tools,

495
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 2: depression turns that into oh, my goodness, look at the

496
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 2: bird and I'm putting on him. He was such a

497
00:24:58,880 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 2: bright spirit and I'm damp.

498
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: Yes, very much so, that was very well said.

499
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 2: And did do you identify that that was depression? Are

500
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 2: you aware enough of the cognitive distortions that happen, how

501
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: your mind can twist even positive things into the negative?

502
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: Sadly not aware enough at the time. The therapist I

503
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 3: ended up seeing about two months after that, she I

504
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 3: think helped me the most with like suicidal thoughts and

505
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 3: struggling with that. Her way of viewing it was kind

506
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 3: of befriending the suicidal thoughts and like viewing them as

507
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 3: a separate part. And I had never learned how to

508
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: separate myself from that. I had always been like, this

509
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 3: is me. I am depressed, Like I am having these thoughts,

510
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 3: these are real, this is a part of me. I

511
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 3: had never separated myself from all of those thoughts and

512
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 3: been able to look at it and be like, oh,

513
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 3: here's depression again. I hear you. I had never looked

514
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: at it that way.

515
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: A moment ago, you were crying as we were talking

516
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: about how much your then boyfriend cared about you. Can

517
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: you talk about that a little bit, how that touched you.

518
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a big part of me that

519
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 3: feels like I don't deserve him in many ways, especially

520
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 3: early on, in like how much he cared about me

521
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 3: and how much he did try and do to help.

522
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: So I think that's really what caused me to tear

523
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 3: up as thinking about that.

524
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: So you start to see a new therapist, it starts

525
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 1: to help a little bit, and then you get pregnant again.

526
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: And you two had had this conversation that you would

527
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: not have another abortion. How then did it happen that

528
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: he asked you to have one anyway? Was he concerned

529
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: about your depression? Did he feel like the situation had

530
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: changed because of that? What was his reasoning given how

531
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: clear you had been?

532
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, the depression was actually a defining factor and why

533
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: he wanted me to get another abortion. He felt like

534
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: I was not emotionally capable of taking care of a child.

535
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 3: That was the exact thing he said to me, is

536
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 3: you we're not emotionally capable of caring for this child.

537
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: And that really stuck with me. I was like, maybe

538
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 3: he's right. I mean, look at where I am. I'm like,

539
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 3: of course, of course he's right. So that was very hard.

540
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: And was there any reference to how depressed you got

541
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 2: from the previous abortion and what having another one might

542
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: do to you.

543
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a big part of my conversation, and

544
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: that's actually how I ended up making the decision that

545
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 3: I made, which was, you know, to have the baby

546
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 3: who is now he's my son, that's two years old.

547
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 3: I made the appointment for the abortion three different times,

548
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 3: and every time I did not go, and every time

549
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 3: it was I cannot live with myself if I make

550
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 3: this decision again.

551
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: When you had made the appointment and you didn't go,

552
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: how did he respond to your saying I just absolutely

553
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: cannot do this.

554
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 3: His words said, I'll support you in whatever decision you make.

555
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 3: You know where I stand, but I'll support you.

556
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: What did I'll support you mean we'll be together as

557
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: a couple, We'll raise the baby together. What did that mean?

558
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 3: That was actually a conversation we never had when I

559
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 3: decided to not have the abortion. I went into that

560
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 3: thinking that meant he would be there, maybe financially, maybe emotionally.

561
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 3: But I didn't see that as that meant we're going

562
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 3: to be together and raise this child together. But that

563
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 3: is very much what he meant. He meant we will

564
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 3: be a family, we will give this a shot, we

565
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 3: will take care of this child as best we know?

566
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: How what prevented you from asking what it meant when

567
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: he said I'll be there and to talk about what

568
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: it meant for your relationship, whether you would be together

569
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: as a couple, as a family. Why didn't you ask

570
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: that question.

571
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: I think there was a little bit of fear around

572
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: what the answer would be. I think there was a

573
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 3: part of me that had fully accepted that I would

574
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: be raising this child on my own, forcing someone into this,

575
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: so therefore I need to take the responsibility for this child.

576
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: That was kind of my mentality. Even though he was

577
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: saying like, I'll support you, I didn't hear that, as

578
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: we're a team in this, let's have a conversation together.

579
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: It's so interesting that he says to you, I want

580
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: you to have an abortion because I don't think you're

581
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: capable of caring for a child. And the subtext is

582
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: because I see that you're doing really poorly and you're

583
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 2: not caring well for yourself at the moment, so it

584
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: scares me how you might care for a child. But

585
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: the minute you made the decision, there's so much strength

586
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: in your voice when you talk about I head, in

587
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: my head, I will be raising this child alone. You

588
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: sound determined, You sound like you have agency. You sound

589
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: so much stronger in that moment of decision, almost like

590
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: the antithesis of somebody who doesn't have the strength to

591
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: be a mom. Did you feel the strength when that

592
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: was happening.

593
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did. That was a very big moment for me.

594
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: Was I knew when I was having this child like

595
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 3: that meant I was also choosing to no longer ever

596
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: consider suicide. Like my decision was I was going to

597
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 3: continue to live and take care of this child. So

598
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: it was a very very big decision for me.

599
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 2: That's a real pivot. How much were you aware of

600
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: the strength that you discovered and starting to think of

601
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: yourself as being stronger emotionally, being more resilient than you

602
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 2: had thought of yourself to be.

603
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I've given it much thought. I think

604
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: early on, when I did first make that decision, I

605
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 3: could feel the difference. I could feel like this level

606
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: of hope that it gave me that I'd never really

607
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 3: had before.

608
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 2: And purpose and goals, yes, motivation, all of it.

609
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, they gave me I guess, yeah, a focus on

610
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 3: something other than myself. I think that when you're caught

611
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 3: in depression for so long, you're so caught up with

612
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: yourself and your feelings, it's really really hard to think

613
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: about other people. And this has been like a no

614
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 3: brain like my son is always first, and I've never

615
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 3: had to put someone first in that way. It's been

616
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 3: healing in a way.

617
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: So how did you come around in terms of supporting

618
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: the pregnancy and how much was he there for you

619
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: during When did you see a change of attitude from

620
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,239
Speaker 2: him from I don't want this, but I'll support you

621
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 2: to this is my kid too.

622
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. So shortly after I made the decision to not

623
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: go through the abortion, we started couple's therapy, So he

624
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: was very on board with working through all of this together,

625
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 3: figuring out how we can best approach this as a team.

626
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: So I think that was the first sign of him

627
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 3: showing that he was there, he was going to do

628
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 3: what it takes. We then shortly moved back to the

629
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 3: East Coast as soon as our lease was up, to

630
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 3: be closer to both of our families, and so that

631
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: was another big thing of him showing he's in this

632
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 3: for the long haul. I decided I wanted to as

633
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 3: much time taking care of our son, and I quit

634
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 3: my job, so he took on full financial provider. It

635
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 3: has been very very large shift for him. And I

636
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 3: think all those were continuing to show me like he's

637
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 3: really doing his best to take on this new role.

638
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: And I think that once my son got a little older,

639
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 3: it really showed how much he loved him and how

640
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: grateful he was to have him in his life. He

641
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: just brought so much joy to both of us that

642
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 3: I think neither of us ever really looked back.

643
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: So you're both making these big commitments to one another

644
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 2: and they get missed mutually because it seems like you're

645
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: making the commitment to the baby and you missed the

646
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: part that's the commitment to one another. Do you see that?

647
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that is very very accurate. I mean, so

648
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 3: we got married five months ago. The decision was because

649
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: we were having a second kid, not because we were

650
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: committing to each other, not because we were so in

651
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 3: love that we couldn't wait to get married. It was

652
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 3: we went to the courthouse signed legal paperwork because we

653
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 3: were having a second kid, and that's what you do

654
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 3: when you're having kids together. Yeah, the commitment to each

655
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 3: other was kind of lost.

656
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: And it's a shame really because the commitment too one

657
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: another was definitely there, But you're feeling a real lack

658
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: of deep emotional connection. You're saying there's something that's missing. Yeah,

659
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: the question is is it missing or is it there?

660
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: But you're not seeing it because you're not looking at

661
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: the relationship. You're looking at the baby, at the past

662
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 2: and not at the present and how you've each showed

663
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 2: up for the relationship for one another as well as

664
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: for the baby.

665
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's probably more likely the latter that I'm not

666
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: noticing all of these things, that I'm not giving them

667
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: enough weight. I definitely notice that in myself a lot

668
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 3: that I'm more likely to jump to like all the

669
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: things he did wrong instead of even giving a second

670
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 3: thought to all the things he did right. So I

671
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: think that all of the things that show the love

672
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 3: and show that we're there for each other and that

673
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 3: we are a team, they get lost very easily.

674
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: Does he feel today also that there's something missing? Was

675
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: his state of the union? Sort about the relationship today?

676
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 3: He doesn't put as much weight on it as I do.

677
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 3: He has the desire to get back to kind of

678
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,919
Speaker 3: having this enjoyment in our relationship. He misses that as well,

679
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 3: But I think he sees it more as not a

680
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 3: big deal, whereas I see it as like this is

681
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 3: potentially like the beginning of the end, Like if you

682
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 3: just keep letting this go, it just gets worse and

683
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 3: worse and resentment builds, and you just end up in

684
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 3: a relationship ten years down the road that you don't

685
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 3: recognize and neither of you are happy, and you decide, oh,

686
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: it's the relationship that's the problem. So we view it

687
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 3: very differently.

688
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: I agree with you that there is and always has

689
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: been some kind of emotional disconnect between the two of you,

690
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: even during that fun time. The fun time was all

691
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: the unfinished business that you both had that you thought

692
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: you'd find in each other. There's that phrase, we marry

693
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: our unfinished business if we haven't processed it. And you

694
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: both had really difficult childhoods in different ways, and you

695
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: both dealt with them in different ways. So he compartmentalized,

696
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: you became depressed and hopeless, and then you saw something

697
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: in each other that seemed like something different, even though

698
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: it was so familiar unconsciously to both of you outside

699
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: of your awareness. And sometimes when you start working through this,

700
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: it can be a really good match because you processed it,

701
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: and then there is sort of that touch point, there

702
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: is that place of compact for each other, there's a

703
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 1: place of deeper connection. But it sounds like even still

704
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: even being married, even having two kids, having gone through

705
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: all that you've gone through, you're not really having the

706
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: conversations that you needed to have back then and that

707
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: are still just not happening now. So I don't think

708
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: that you really know how he feels, and I don't

709
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: think he really understands.

710
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: How you feel.

711
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: I think you've said it, but I don't think he

712
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: truly understands it. What were those early times like with

713
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: your son.

714
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 3: He did say he felt an instant connection once my

715
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 3: son was born. He did say that, I think I

716
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 3: just didn't see the connection until much later, probably like

717
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 3: when my son feels six months or so is when

718
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 3: I really started to see him, like start to connect

719
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 3: with him, started to see this like joy and excitement

720
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 3: and like your face lighting up when you see him

721
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 3: first thing in the morning. When you know, when babies

722
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 3: are younger, you don't see as much of their personality.

723
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 3: It's just much more of a caretaking, tedious, tiresome role.

724
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 3: Sometimes when their little personalities come out and you're seeing

725
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 3: smiles and giggles, and they're playing and you can interact

726
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 3: with them. That's when he really started to connect with

727
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 3: him a lot more.

728
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 2: And how did you feel? Seeing that?

729
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 3: Is definitely really reassuring to see, to witness to feel

730
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 3: the mutual love there. It definitely made us feel more

731
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 3: like a family instead of two people pretending to be

732
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 3: a family. I guess I think those are the moments

733
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 3: that it really like dialed in that we're in this together.

734
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 3: I went into it with this mentality of I made

735
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 3: this decision, therefore I need to take on as much

736
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 3: of the burden as I can. I don't want to

737
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 3: ask him for too much. I don't want to put

738
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 3: too much on him, and I don't want him to

739
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 3: feel overwhelmed and run for the hills before we even

740
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 3: know where this goes. My parents are very unhappily married.

741
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 3: I do not want their relationship in any way, shape

742
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 3: or form. I very much am like I need to

743
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 3: know if this can be a happy marriage, because I

744
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 3: will not stay in an unhappy marriage. I cannot do that.

745
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 2: That is not who I am, right and I think

746
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: it's another incidence of him making a commitment to the

747
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,959
Speaker 2: family that you perceive as a commitment to the kid

748
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: and not to you. He moved to the East Coast

749
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 2: with you, he took on the financial responsibilities. He wasn't

750
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,879
Speaker 2: showing you that you're in this alone. The opposite is true.

751
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 2: He was like, we're in this together. His actions were

752
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: really clear, but it didn't register with you as a

753
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 2: statement about how he felt toward you. Yeah, and I

754
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 2: suspected that's still not quite landing with you, that how

755
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 2: he feels towards you, and all the behaviors that he

756
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,760
Speaker 2: has that demonstrate his commit and love for you don't

757
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: necessarily land because you see them and you're like, oh,

758
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: that's that's for the kid, that's for the family, quote unquote,

759
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 2: but not necessarily for me.

760
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 3: It's very true. And I think that's how I have

761
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 3: viewed a lot of those things, is it's a commitment

762
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 3: to our children, not a commitment to me. I am

763
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: the thing that comes with having kids. I am not

764
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 3: the thing you are choosing. I am the obligation that

765
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 3: comes with the thing you are choosing.

766
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 2: And do you see that that might be a misperception

767
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: that his behavior is quite consistent in the commitment being

768
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: to you as well.

769
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do. As you were saying that, I am

770
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 3: thinking of all the times our couples therapist has said

771
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: something similar in terms of like, this is how much

772
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 3: he loves you, this is how much he wants this

773
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 3: to work. Like things that I discount and think of

774
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: as not being these huge devotions of love, I look

775
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 3: right by them. So it's really sinking in.

776
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: As you say that, what is it that you don't

777
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 1: want about your parents' marriage?

778
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 3: Who there's a lot. I don't want the lack of connection.

779
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 3: I don't want the disrespect. They are not a team.

780
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 3: They are two separate people that are stuck in the

781
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 3: same existence. They do not enjoy each other's company. When

782
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 3: I was in middle school, my dad would bribe me

783
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 3: to try and get my mom to go out to

784
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 3: dinner with him. They don't spend time together. My mom

785
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 3: is a wonderfully positive person, except when it comes to

786
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 3: my father. With my father, it is nothing but negative

787
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 3: things and disrespectful things, and they're mean and harsh and

788
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 3: they put each other down. And I don't ever want

789
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 3: that level of disrespect in my own relationship.

790
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: What was your parents' reaction to you having this big

791
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: life change of all of a sudden, having a baby,

792
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 1: moving in with your boyfriend.

793
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 3: They definitely had mixed feelings. My dad is very, very

794
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 3: strong and strict Catholic who is very against abortion, very

795
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 3: against sex before marriage, very against living together before marriage.

796
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 3: Any decision I made, he's against. So they definitely made

797
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 3: it very clear that this is not what they wanted

798
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 3: for me. But they also made it very clear that

799
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 3: they love me no matter what. They will be there

800
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 3: to support me in any way that they can.

801
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 1: Are they involved with their grandchildren?

802
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 3: Yes, my mom absolutely absolutely adores my son, and she

803
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 3: comes almost every other week. She lives a few hours

804
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 3: away but still comes all the time. And my dad

805
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 3: is less involved, but he still very much cares. He

806
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: shows up to any family events and he takes interest

807
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 3: in things like that.

808
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 2: How do they feel about your husband?

809
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 3: My mom adores him. My mom and my husband are

810
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 3: very similar in many ways, so they've gotten along since

811
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 3: day one. My dad, it took some warming up just

812
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 3: because of how he viewed our relationship and the parameters

813
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 3: in which it began.

814
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: What I'm curious about is it's one thing to say

815
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to financially support you and I'm going to

816
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: move across the country and do all these things. But

817
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: I don't hear a lot about the two of you

818
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: talking about what this meant for your relationship. Even after

819
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: you had your son. It doesn't sound like anybody was

820
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: talking about are we going to be together for the

821
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: long term? Are we going to get married? And it

822
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: wasn't until you got pregnant with your daughter that you

823
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: decided to get married. So what do you think was

824
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: going on where nobody was talking about what is this

825
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: thing that we're doing?

826
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was no communication. He proposed to me initially

827
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: when I was pregnant with our son, so two and

828
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: a half years ago. He proposed to me then, and

829
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 3: then we pretty much had no conversations about when we

830
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 3: would actually get married.

831
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: So you said yes, yeah, Uh huh. Why were there

832
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: no conversations about when you would get married?

833
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 3: From my perspective, I think it was me still trying

834
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 3: to figure out if we could be that happy relationship

835
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 3: that I wanted.

836
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: But did you tell him that you weren't sure about that?

837
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: Where you just didn't talk about it?

838
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 3: More, we didn't talk about it. There were definitely times

839
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 3: where I expressed my concerns and that was why we

840
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 3: ended up going back to couple's therapy and we would

841
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 3: have some conversations, but I was very afraid to express

842
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 3: the severity of my concerns, Like I remember one time

843
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 3: where I felt like it was just consuming me. My

844
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 3: thoughts were just all constantly contemplating the relationship, and so

845
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 3: I talked to him about it and his response was, well,

846
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 3: if you're not sure about us, then what are we doing?

847
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 3: Just leave? And that, in my mind was very much

848
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: like a Oh, it's not safe to express these doubts,

849
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 3: these fears that I have, and I didn't really broach

850
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 3: the subject again. My way of broaching the subject was

851
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 3: let's go to couple's therapy and work on whatever is

852
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 3: causing this disconnection. It was definitely a fear to have

853
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 3: more of that conversation.

854
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: Could you imagine how hurt and terrified he was when

855
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: you said.

856
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 3: That, yeah, yeah, yeah.

857
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of making sense in your own

858
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,919
Speaker 1: minds about what's happening without really taking in the context

859
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: of what's happening around you. So when you said that

860
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: to him, you heard his reaction as well. I just

861
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: can't express my true feelings to him without thinking, Wow,

862
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 1: he's really committed to me. He wants to be together,

863
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: and I've just told him that I'm not sure about us.

864
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely didn't draw all of these connections before.

865
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 3: You guys are putting them out, the connection of him

866
00:44:54,120 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 3: continually showing his commitment to us and me, Yeah, ignoring

867
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 3: every single one of them. I'm oblivious to all of them.

868
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: You know, when you talk about fun, it occurs to

869
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: me that it's really hard to have fun when you

870
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: don't feel safe, and it's hard to feel safe when

871
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: people aren't communicating. Talking makes you both scared and makes

872
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: you both feel even more disconnected. So of course you're

873
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: going to avoid it. And if you can find a

874
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: way to talk in a way that feels connecting, you're

875
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: both going to feel safer with each other. And once

876
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: you feel safe in a relationship, that's when you can

877
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: have fun. Having fun is about letting go. Having fun

878
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: is about letting your guard down.

879
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 2: How did he propose to you?

880
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 3: It was just taking me to a park that I

881
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 3: really loved in the area right on the coast, and

882
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 3: you got down on one knee, and I mean there

883
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 3: was no like sweet word said, there was no loving

884
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 3: sentiment shared. It was just a simple will you marry

885
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,959
Speaker 3: me kind of thing. It felt very forced and obligatory,

886
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: and honestly, it's not a moment that I like looking

887
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 3: back on because I feel like it should feel full

888
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 3: of love and joy and it doesn't, do you.

889
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: Know how it felt to him.

890
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 3: Similar He felt very forced, he said, so. He felt

891
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 3: like he wasn't able to do it on his own terms,

892
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 3: in his own way, in a way that felt right

893
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 3: to him.

894
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: To me, the actions are saying I'm committed to this family,

895
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: but I'm not hearing a lot. And I really love you, Nora,

896
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: I really want to be with you, Nora. And I

897
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 1: think that's where the disconnection. I see you nodding, that's

898
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: where the disconnection is for you, that this all happened

899
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: in the context of these pregnancies, and there's never been

900
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: a real reckoning of what part is for the family

901
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: and commitment and the kids and what part is about

902
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: And you love me for me, and you would want

903
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 1: to be with me anyway, and I think that that's

904
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: really important. And so I'm curious about how the marriage

905
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: part came about.

906
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 3: When we found out we were partner at the second

907
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 3: time I brought up getting married. I'm pretty sure my

908
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 3: exact words were, we're having a second child, Look, we

909
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 3: should go get married.

910
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: Did you ever say to him, I want to get

911
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: married because I love you, Because it sounds to me

912
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: that what you're asking for from him is something you

913
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: haven't given him either, So in his mind, he might

914
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: be thinking, she wants to be with me, not because

915
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: she chooses me or because she really loves me, and

916
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: if we didn't have these kids, she would still want

917
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: to marry me. But we're having another kid, let's get married.

918
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: It's not super romantic, and I.

919
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 3: Know it's not, And I think that's probably a big

920
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 3: part of why I'm so fearful to have those conversations

921
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 3: with him, and probably why I don't interpret his actions

922
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 3: to mean that, because I genuinely don't feel like we

923
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 3: would be getting married if we didn't have kids.

924
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 2: If he had been someone who would have been able

925
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 2: to express in words what he's expressing in actions and

926
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 2: say to you, I love you, I'm proposing because I

927
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: want to be with you. I care for you, I

928
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 2: want to be with you in the loronghold. Do you

929
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,720
Speaker 2: think that would have changed how you felt about him?

930
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that would have changed a lot. I

931
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: think it would have changed a lot, being able to

932
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 3: hear the words behind his actions and know his intentions

933
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: instead of having to constantly guess and letting my mind

934
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 3: wander into these what if scenarios and always feeling like

935
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 3: I'm questioning the relationship instead of feeling like there's safety

936
00:48:59,239 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 3: and security.

937
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 2: And if there were the safety and security, do you

938
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 2: think you'd have been able to express to him how

939
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: you felt about him? Would that have been easier to do? Yeah,

940
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: if you would have heard those things from him.

941
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 3: I think I would have had less doubts and concerns

942
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 3: along the way, because I think me feeling like he

943
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: has doubts and concerns feeds my doubts and concerns, and

944
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 3: it's just like a constant cycle.

945
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: I do think it's a constant cycle, and I do

946
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 2: think you reinforce that in one another. And again, my

947
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 2: suspicion is that you both actually do have those feelings

948
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: for one another, but you're not expressing them you because

949
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 2: he doesn't, he because you don't, and that you're just

950
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: reinforcing a disconnect, which I'm not sure is even there.

951
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 2: To be honest, I'm not sure that it's The disconnect

952
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: is not profound I think the hesitation on both sides

953
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: because of the history is profound, but I'm not sure

954
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 2: the disconnect emotionally actually is.

955
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that resonates with me a lot and sounds very accurate,

956
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 3: very much like that's kind of the piece that's been missing.

957
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about your mother and how you said she

958
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: was a very positive person except when it came to

959
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: how she felt around my father and the criticisms. So

960
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the positive person you describe your

961
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: husband that way too. There's some of your mother in there,

962
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: but there's also some of the mother in you with

963
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: finding fault with your husband.

964
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 3: Yes, our couple therapist has actually suggested I have a

965
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 3: conversation with my mom because she does come to visit

966
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 3: fairly often, and I notice when she is around, I

967
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 3: am so much more critical, and I will say comments

968
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 3: criticizing my husband when I normally would not. I don't

969
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 3: even think I would think to criticize it. It just

970
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,919
Speaker 3: comes out. It's like I hear it from her all

971
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 3: the time, and it just like flips a switch in

972
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 3: my brain and my brain can't think about anything positive

973
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 3: to do with my husband. And so our couple therapists

974
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 3: has actually suggested we have a conversation with her to

975
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 3: ask her to not talk negatively about my dad, which

976
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 3: is a scary conversation to have, but I do think

977
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 3: that it definitely makes it harder for me to stay

978
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 3: positive in my own relationship.

979
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: So you guys got married, and it was hey, we're

980
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: having another baby, we should get married. You to him, Yeah,

981
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 1: was there anything romantic about getting married?

982
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 3: No, there was nothing romantic. It was purely driving to

983
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 3: the courthouse, getting papers and notoriyes and returning them to

984
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 3: the courthouse.

985
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: Did you put on a dress? How much did this

986
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 1: feel like the ritual of getting married in whatever way

987
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: would be meaningful to the two of you?

988
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: Or was it straight to the drag cleaners in the supermarket?

989
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 3: Pretty much, straight to the drag cleaners in the supermarket.

990
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 3: I put on a white dress, but it wasn't like

991
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 3: a wedding dress. It was just a white sun dress.

992
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 3: Our son went with us to go to the courthouse.

993
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 3: Sparely even spoke about it after. I didn't get a

994
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 3: ring for a few months after that. Why, I think

995
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 3: there was still this hesitation and this like unrealness to me,

996
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 3: And it felt like buying a ring was acknowledging that

997
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 3: it was real.

998
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: The hesitation came from you about buying the ring.

999
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, he actually bought one. First. He wanted to go

1000
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 3: to the mall and buy a ring, so he bought one,

1001
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 3: and I waited a while. I used the excuse of

1002
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 3: it was a lot more expensive than his ring, but

1003
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 3: in reality we could have bought it.

1004
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: I just put it.

1005
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:32,240
Speaker 3: Off for a while.

1006
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: Have you ever in your life felt loved in the

1007
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: way that you wanted to feel loved?

1008
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 3: No, my mom makes me feel loved now. As a child,

1009
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 3: I did not feel that from her at all. She

1010
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,879
Speaker 3: has changed a lot, She's grown a lot.

1011
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: What's the difference between how your mom was then and

1012
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: how she is now.

1013
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 3: When I was growing up, she was very invalidating. When

1014
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 3: I was in high school started struggling with an eating disorder,

1015
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 3: that's when I really started struggling with depression, and my

1016
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 3: mom didn't understand any of it, and it felt like

1017
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 3: she was ashamed of me, like I was a burden.

1018
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 3: She didn't know how to be there for me. So

1019
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 3: now as I'm older, she can show me that love,

1020
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 3: and I'm very very grateful. I do feel very loved

1021
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 3: from her now, But I did.

1022
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: Not when I was a child. When you say she

1023
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: was invalidating, I mean the way that she was critical

1024
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: of your father. She was critical of you.

1025
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 3: In different ways. Yes, I think she was always very

1026
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 3: overly concerned with other people's perceptions of us and of me,

1027
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 3: more so than my own feelings. And I also think

1028
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:38,720
Speaker 3: I have four younger siblings, so she was also very preoccupied.

1029
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 3: We were all two years apart, and I think she

1030
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 3: couldn't give me the attention that I needed because it

1031
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 3: was she had to give it to four other kids

1032
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 3: and your father. My father worked a lot. He came

1033
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 3: home to discipline us and yell at us and force

1034
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 3: us to go to church, but he was not around.

1035
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 3: I mean, he worked so much to give us what

1036
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 3: we had, and I now recognize that as his act

1037
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 3: of love. But of course, as a child, you don't

1038
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: see that as love.

1039
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: You mentioned in your letter that your husband is a

1040
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: wonderful father. Different from what you experienced, Yeah.

1041
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 3: Very different from what I experienced. He's here a lot,

1042
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 3: he is involved. I can go get dinner with a

1043
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 3: friend and I don't have to explain to him what

1044
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 3: to do. He knows he's there on a daily basis.

1045
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 3: If both of us are losing our temper and we're

1046
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 3: just having a hard day. He helps, he knows what

1047
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 3: to do versus my dad would never have known. My

1048
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 3: mom left us with my dad one afternoon for like

1049
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 3: an hour and a half, so she went to a

1050
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 3: doctor's appointment, and like, I was down the street. They

1051
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: didn't know where I was. I was gone down the

1052
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 3: street at a friend's house and my brother was just

1053
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 3: hanging from the chandelier and my dad was just watching TV.

1054
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 3: Like he's like, I don't know what to do with

1055
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 3: these kids, so very very different.

1056
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 1: Can I ask what you love about him and what

1057
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: are some of the things from those early days that

1058
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: you still see in him, and what are some new

1059
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: things that you've come to love about him.

1060
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 3: Early on, it was definitely his positivity and like lightheartedness

1061
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,720
Speaker 3: and his silliness. He's very playful. I'm a very serious person,

1062
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 3: so that was definitely a wonderful way to balance each

1063
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 3: other out because I'm not playful at all. I think

1064
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 3: that helped make all of our interactions fun and exciting

1065
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 3: because he brought that to all of interactions I've never

1066
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 3: had that. He's very determined and he works hard at

1067
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 3: things he loves learning new things. He's never afraid to

1068
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 3: jump in and try something, and even if it is

1069
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 3: a disaster, he doesn't get upset. He doesn't have a

1070
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 3: breakdown like I would. He's just like, oh, okay, well

1071
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 3: what can I do differently? And he does it. I

1072
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 3: very much admire his resilience and how he handles things,

1073
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 3: something that I would love to also have. So I

1074
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 3: see a lot of traits in him that I don't

1075
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 3: have and that I admire and wanted to also have,

1076
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 3: And I think that's what drew us to each other initially.

1077
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: I don't have a good picture of what it's like

1078
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: when the two of you are together. Do you have

1079
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: any time where the two of you are together where

1080
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: you're just maybe even watching a TV show together or

1081
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: having a meal together after your son goes to sleep. Yeah,

1082
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: maybe like once a week, Like we just had that

1083
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: two nights ago, and what was that?

1084
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 3: Like? There's nothing wrong with the interaction, but the times

1085
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 3: we spend together don't feel connecting anymore. I feel empty.

1086
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 3: That's the part that I can't figure out where the

1087
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 3: emptiness is coming from. And it feels like it's me

1088
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 3: blocking the connection.

1089
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 2: Well, you are keeping him at arm's length. There's a

1090
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 2: huge hesitation you have about allowing yourself to get close

1091
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 2: because you're so afraid that he's not emotionally in it,

1092
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 2: that he's in it for the kids, that he's in

1093
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 2: it for the obligation, and some of that you're projecting

1094
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,720
Speaker 2: on him. Some of that are your fears and feelings

1095
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 2: that you're kind of putting on him. But I think

1096
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,399
Speaker 2: that when you're hanging out together, it stresses you out

1097
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 2: and it makes you anxious because I think you anticipate

1098
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 2: feeling a lack of connection, and I think a self

1099
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 2: fulfilling prophecy plays out almost every time where you sit

1100
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,760
Speaker 2: there and the tension comes across to him as cold

1101
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 2: or as distant, and so he's hesitant to get close,

1102
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 2: and then you sense the hesitancy and it confirms Ah,

1103
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 2: you see, he doesn't really care, and that self perpetuates.

1104
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 2: And I think that it really starts with this fear

1105
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 2: you have, And I think it's because it's really scary

1106
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 2: to think that maybe, after everything and all my history

1107
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 2: of depression and anxiety my parents, maybe I actually have

1108
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 2: something good here. I think is scary.

1109
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds very true, And I also don't think

1110
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 3: I'd thought about it that way, but that defitally feels

1111
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 3: very accurate. It is definitely scary to feel that way.

1112
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 3: Some part of me feels like I don't deserve it,

1113
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 3: and some part of me feels like it's too good

1114
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 3: to be true, Like here was the situation that was

1115
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 3: one big giant accident after another, and it's turning out

1116
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 3: to be going in the direction most people would love

1117
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 3: for it to go in, and that feels I'm not

1118
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 3: good with positive emotions, so I think that scares me

1119
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 3: even more that this is a big positive thing. In

1120
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 3: my brain's like, wait a second, we don't know how

1121
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 3: to handle.

1122
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 2: This, right, I don't know how to do happy?

1123
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't. It feels very threatening. My brain definitely

1124
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 3: registers that as like warning, warning, danger, Like you're about

1125
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 3: something happy is coming along, and it freaks.

1126
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 1: Out and I can't trust it. Something happy is coming

1127
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: along and I can't trust it. And it's much better

1128
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: to be on guard and to protect myself by finding

1129
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 1: everything that might be wrong in the environment, including my partner,

1130
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 1: because then at least I'm prepared. Yeah, then at least

1131
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: I'm safe and I don't have to get seduced into

1132
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: this happy place where I might get really really hurt.

1133
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: At least my eyes are wide open here. But that's

1134
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: not a very satisfying way to live.

1135
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 2: No, So, Laura, we have some advice for you. You

1136
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 2: told us about when you are having a lot of

1137
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 2: suicidal ideation. One of the things that was helpful for

1138
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 2: you was to externalize that voice, so it wasn't really

1139
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 2: your thoughts. It was the thoughts when you're feeling very depressed,

1140
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 2: and that was helpful to create real separation between you

1141
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 2: and those kind of thoughts. And since that was helpful,

1142
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 2: would like you to do something similar with some of

1143
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 2: the depressed, kind of distorted cognitions you have around the

1144
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 2: understanding of your husband and the marriage and what you're getting.

1145
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 2: You said, he can do these nice gestures, but then

1146
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 2: your mind immediately goes to, yeah, but did that really

1147
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 2: mean that or was he really just doing it? For

1148
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 2: this reason, we'd like you to label those negative thoughts

1149
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: as these are the depressed thoughts. This is what happens

1150
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 2: to me cognitively when I'm depressed. I tend to seek

1151
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 2: the negative and label them that, and then see them

1152
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 2: as being outside of you and reject them and say no,

1153
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to focus on some of the positive here

1154
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 2: to balance that out. It's difficult to stop an intrusive

1155
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: thought like that, but you can add a positive one

1156
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 2: to balance it out. And so you labeled no, that's

1157
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 2: depressive thinking. What I'm really going to focus on is

1158
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 2: how he did a B and C. Okay, so, and

1159
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 2: we'd like you to really get on top of that

1160
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 2: the way you did with a suicidal thinking, because they

1161
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 2: had to be very on it and mindful of it

1162
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 2: to kind of banish it as you did successfully. Similar strategy.

1163
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:53,439
Speaker 1: Yes, that sounds great, And you come by that negativity

1164
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: naturally because your mother did that with your father in

1165
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: being very critical and you said she complains a lot still,

1166
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: So we would like you to have that conversation with

1167
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 1: your mother that when she's around you, to please not

1168
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 1: share those complaints because it really primes your own negativity

1169
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: and you can let her know that you're really working

1170
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 1: on this and that it would be really helpful for

1171
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: you if she would not share those complaints when she's

1172
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 1: around you.

1173
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely need to have that conversation with her.

1174
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 3: And in terms of the I guess cognitive distortion that

1175
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 3: I find the having to separate myself from it seems

1176
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 3: a lot more manageable and a lot more realistic for

1177
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 3: how I have dealt with things in the past. So

1178
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 3: I think that's great.

1179
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not denying how you feel. It's saying, like

1180
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: you did with the suicidality, I feel this way, and

1181
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: there's also this yeah, right, I can put that over

1182
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 1: there and also feel this.

1183
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, remembering that you know, this has been something I've

1184
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 3: been hearing my entire life, and it makes sense that

1185
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 3: my brain is jumping to these thoughts because this is

1186
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 3: the only way it knows how to kind of see

1187
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 3: a relationship.

1188
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: Yes, that's how you're wired, but you can rewire, and

1189
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: that's what we're trying to help with. And the next

1190
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: thing that we would like you to do, and this

1191
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 1: might sound kind of silly, but we would like you

1192
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: and your husband to take ten minutes after your son

1193
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 1: is asleep or whenever you have a moment that's just

1194
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: the two of you, to turn out to music and

1195
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: dance and you're smiling.

1196
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 3: Smiling because that's one of the things I have the most,

1197
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 3: like uncomfortable feelings around and dancing. So, yeah, you just

1198
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 3: assigned the worst thing ever to me right.

1199
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 1: And here's the thing though, So whenever we do assign

1200
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: this to couples, usually one of the people in the

1201
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: couple says exactly that same thing, that they're really uncomfortable

1202
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: with it, But then when they actually do it, they

1203
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 1: find that it's so fun and free and connecting. Because

1204
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 1: it's silly. We're not trying to make some kind of

1205
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: romantic interaction happen at all. This is more like the

1206
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: beginning of the relationship. This is more like we can

1207
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 1: be silly, we can look ridiculous, and you have to

1208
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 1: set a timer for ten minutes. It will seem very long,

1209
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: but it's like three songs and you just dance together.

1210
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: You don't have to use words. It's not that we're

1211
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 1: going to have a conversation. It's literally just we're going

1212
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 1: to spend time together and we're going to kind of

1213
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 1: loosen up our nervous systems and our bodies a little bit.

1214
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: And there's no goal. It's just we're going to spend

1215
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 1: these ten minutes like this together, and we want you

1216
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: to do this every night for a week. Okay, ten

1217
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 1: minutes every night for a week. Find the time to

1218
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: do this and just experience it all.

1219
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 3: Right, that sounds terrifying.

1220
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:57,479
Speaker 2: But you know what, it works much better with people

1221
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 2: who are terrified of dancing than it does with Dan

1222
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 2: says dances. That's fine, I'll just warm up and like no, no, no,

1223
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 2: that's not gonna work.

1224
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:07,439
Speaker 1: Actually, guys, right, it works much better with people who

1225
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable at the beginning.

1226
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 2: Exactly. That's the point of it.

1227
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 1: Yes, and again, you know, choosing the songs. It can

1228
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:15,959
Speaker 1: be really fun taking turns, that kind of thing.

1229
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 3: My husband will have a blast at this. I'm going

1230
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 3: to be terrified out of my mind.

1231
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 2: He knows about this, right, he knows that you're having

1232
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 2: this right. Okay, good, so you won't be surprised that

1233
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 2: you're coming with homework.

1234
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 3: Okay, No, he's very excited to hear the Okay.

1235
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 2: Next thing, we'd like to have a conversation together and

1236
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 2: would like you to kind of be honest with him

1237
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 2: and say to him, you know, when I see how

1238
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 2: you are with us, son, when I think of how

1239
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 2: when I was in bed and I couldn't get out

1240
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 2: of bed, you would come and sit with me in

1241
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 2: bed and work from home to be with me. When

1242
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 2: I think of so many of the gestures that you've

1243
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,439
Speaker 2: made and the things that you do. I don't think

1244
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 2: I've told you how meaningful those are for me, and

1245
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 2: I don't think i've told you how much they touch me.

1246
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 2: And I think part of why I haven't told you

1247
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 2: that is because I sometimes don't trust that you love

1248
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 2: me for me, because it's really scary for me to

1249
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:19,959
Speaker 2: trust that, And so I know that I sometimes push

1250
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 2: you away for that reason. And I don't want to

1251
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:28,400
Speaker 2: push you away at all, but I need that validation

1252
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 2: from you. I'd love to hear three things that you

1253
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 2: love about me that aren't related to the kids, just me.

1254
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 2: I think that would be really useful. And when he

1255
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 2: says them, you have three things that you will tell

1256
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 2: him that you love about him that are specific. And

1257
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 2: we want to see how that moment feels to the

1258
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 2: two of you to be vulnerable with each other about

1259
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 2: it's scary for us to acknowledge how we feel because

1260
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 2: of the way everything happened, and if you act despite

1261
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 2: that fear. Be curious to see what will happen between

1262
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 2: the two of you in that moment if you're both vulnerable.

1263
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, I think my bias towards the negative

1264
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 3: makes it like these conversations. I like to think I'm

1265
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 3: good about talking emotional things, but I don't think I

1266
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 3: am with him, and especially in the context of something positive,

1267
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 3: that feels much more vulnerable and scary to me than

1268
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 3: talking about negative emotions and what's wrong. So this is

1269
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 3: definitely a good exercise and something I need more practice with.

1270
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 1: So that's the homework for this week, and we're really

1271
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: excited to hear how that goes for you when you

1272
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 1: report back.

1273
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm very excited to get started on all

1274
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:43,439
Speaker 3: of those, so thank you so much.

1275
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 1: I think what's interesting here is because they had such

1276
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 1: a difficult beginning where they had a crisis very early

1277
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: on in the relationship, it's hard for them to tell

1278
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 1: what are some of the things that they came into

1279
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: the relationship with that would have been there regardless of

1280
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: these pregnancies. And that's where I think it's really important

1281
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 1: for them to start to explore what are the ways

1282
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: that they both don't really know how to deal with intimacy,

1283
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 1: don't really know how to communicate, and what are the

1284
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 1: ways in which she, in particular, is so afraid of

1285
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: connection even as she craves it.

1286
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 2: I do think her anxiety about the connection is quite significant.

1287
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:42,720
Speaker 2: I think that fear is really making her project pessimistic

1288
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 2: viewpoints outward in a way, and that pushes him away

1289
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 2: and makes it difficult for him to express things. What

1290
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 2: I didn't hear from her is bucket loads of resentment

1291
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 2: for the situation that he's in. I hear him leaning in,

1292
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 2: except he doesn't communicate that verbally. He communicates it all

1293
01:07:59,400 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 2: in action.

1294
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also her talking about how she's never felt

1295
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: loved in a romantic relationship before. It's new territory for her,

1296
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 1: and I hope that the exercises that we gave them

1297
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 1: for this week will help them to at least just

1298
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 1: start to unblock a little bit of that blockage.

1299
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 2: I really hope. So it'll be so interesting to hear

1300
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:26,600
Speaker 2: how things go.

1301
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,840
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists. We'll be back after a

1302
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 1: short break. So, guy, we heard back from Nora, and

1303
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: let's hear how her week went.

1304
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 3: Hi, Laurie, Hi Guy. I wanted to give you both

1305
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 3: an update on my homework. Two out of the three

1306
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 3: homeworks i'm have been going very well, but one of

1307
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 3: them I have definitely been putting off. I talked to

1308
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,759
Speaker 3: my husband and I told him about all the valuable

1309
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 3: insight that you both provided, and it naturally led to

1310
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 3: one of the homework assignments, which was to have a

1311
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 3: conversation about three things we love about the other person.

1312
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:18,920
Speaker 3: I honestly think he might have needed to have that

1313
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 3: conversation more than I did. He seemed significantly more affectionate

1314
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 3: and loving the next few days, and I could tell

1315
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:29,840
Speaker 3: there was like an instant shift in him emotionally that

1316
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 3: was definitely much needed for him. For me, it didn't

1317
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 3: feel like it hit quite as hard. There was nothing

1318
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:39,720
Speaker 3: he said that really surprised me, so it didn't really

1319
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 3: feel very noteworthy. But I do know one of his

1320
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 3: love languages is words of affirmation, whereas I have never

1321
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 3: been big on words of affirmation, so that could be

1322
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:52,880
Speaker 3: a part of it as well. I also think that

1323
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 3: he might be better at providing words of affirmation on

1324
01:09:57,320 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 3: a regular basis or showing his affection than I am,

1325
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 3: so he might have actually needed to hear that even

1326
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:06,759
Speaker 3: more than I did. I've also been working on separating

1327
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 3: myself from any of the negative relationship thoughts, but the

1328
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:13,599
Speaker 3: negative relationship thoughts definitely ebb and flow, and this week

1329
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,360
Speaker 3: there haven't been many of them to practice on, which

1330
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:19,320
Speaker 3: is a good thing. And then last, I have found

1331
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 3: every excuse in the book to avoid dancing for ten

1332
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:26,760
Speaker 3: minutes each night, so there's been very little progress made

1333
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,880
Speaker 3: on that front. But thank you again for all of

1334
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 3: your incredible insight. There were so many things that deeply

1335
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 3: resonated with me and truly helped me understand myself and

1336
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 3: my relationship a lot better. And I am so so

1337
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 3: grateful for having had the opportunity to learn from both

1338
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 3: of you.

1339
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 2: I was really glad to hear that her husband took

1340
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 2: so well to that exercise. It did seem to me

1341
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 2: during the session that he needed that as much as

1342
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 2: she needed that. And then the question I have is

1343
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 2: why did that not land with her as much and

1344
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 2: whether that might be related to how difficult it was

1345
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,760
Speaker 2: for her to do ten minutes of dancing with him

1346
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 2: to kind of let go because she really struggles to

1347
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 2: let go.

1348
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, she said, not only does her husband feel really

1349
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:23,680
Speaker 1: connected when he hears those words of affirmation, but that

1350
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 1: he also offers them more than she's able to.

1351
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:28,840
Speaker 2: And I think part of it is the things that

1352
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 2: we spoke about, the depression, the negative thoughts, the intrusive thoughts.

1353
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 2: When we have a lot of those, it just paints

1354
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 2: a picture of the world that's got a great film

1355
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,799
Speaker 2: on it that's a bit negative and a bit skewed

1356
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 2: to the pessimistic, and it's truly difficult to perceive the

1357
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:48,960
Speaker 2: good things when they're around, or to really allow them

1358
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 2: to come in to be nourished by them. And those

1359
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 2: negative thoughts can really keep somebody in a depressed space

1360
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:59,919
Speaker 2: and state of mind. And that's something that she's hopefully

1361
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 2: will continue to be able to work on so that

1362
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,760
Speaker 2: she can really take in the good stuff when it's there.

1363
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 1: And we discovered that that pattern actually came from her mom,

1364
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:12,720
Speaker 1: who she said was always complaining about her father and

1365
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 1: then also would complain about Nora's husband, which then would

1366
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 1: get Nora into that space of complaining about her husband.

1367
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: And I noticed that she didn't comment on whether she

1368
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 1: did that part of the assignment that we gave her

1369
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:29,599
Speaker 1: about asking her mom to hold those criticisms aside when

1370
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 1: the mom is with Nora and her husband or even

1371
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 1: just with Nora by herself.

1372
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 2: She was very clear that she didn't do the dancing

1373
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:38,880
Speaker 2: because she was just too uncomfortable and couldn't let go.

1374
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 2: So it's not clear to me whether this was something

1375
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 2: that she was uncomfortable to do or should just slip

1376
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 2: her mind and didn't do. But Norah, if you're listening,

1377
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 2: do it, because that's an important thing. I think imum

1378
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 2: vida does impact your perspective.

1379
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 1: And sometimes in a weird way, depression serves us because

1380
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:02,960
Speaker 1: we can avoid certain things that make us uncomfortable. So

1381
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 1: the negative thoughts, while they're unpleasant, they're familiar to her

1382
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 1: and they're less of a risk than going outside of

1383
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 1: her comfort zone and really being vulnerable with another person.

1384
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 1: And so you're kind of safe in this shield that

1385
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:23,320
Speaker 1: depression puts around you, and she's not choosing the depression,

1386
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 1: but in some ways it might just be a little

1387
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:30,040
Speaker 1: more comfortable to her than being vulnerable and putting herself

1388
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:33,639
Speaker 1: out there in that way. And the dancing really is

1389
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 1: an act of vulnerability. It's being with somebody in a

1390
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 1: way where you're willing to look silly and you're willing

1391
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 1: to embarrass yourself and it's really fun and it's such

1392
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,599
Speaker 1: an act of letting go where you're not thinking, you're

1393
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,040
Speaker 1: just being and you're letting your body do what it does.

1394
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 1: And so I hope that Norah is able to maybe

1395
01:13:56,120 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 1: work on that she's doing therapy, and try to push

1396
01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 1: yourself a little bit, baby steps out of her comfort zone.

1397
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: Maybe dance for one minute, Maybe try offering a word

1398
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 1: of affirmation, or maybe taking in a word of affirmation.

1399
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,120
Speaker 2: I always find that when somebody says I have a

1400
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 2: really hard time doing something that shouldn't be that hard

1401
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 2: and should feel good and should feel good, I always

1402
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:28,799
Speaker 2: find that there are other ways in which the person

1403
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:32,800
Speaker 2: does not allow themselves perhaps to feel good. And I

1404
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 2: always think it's a good idea. If you're struggling with that, Laura,

1405
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:39,519
Speaker 2: use that as a goal. Set yourself the goal to

1406
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 2: work towards being able to do that ten minutes of silly, joyful,

1407
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:48,200
Speaker 2: vulnerable dancing. Because at the point that you can get that,

1408
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:52,280
Speaker 2: you've burst through a blockage. So work on that blockage,

1409
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 2: because I think it'll be really diagnostic. When you can

1410
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 2: do that, it means you've really been able to let

1411
01:14:57,320 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 2: go in a way that's hard to do now. And

1412
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 2: so that's a really come Greek gold to set to

1413
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 2: see how you're doing. If I'm able to dance, I'm

1414
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 2: doing well. If I'm not able to dance in the city.

1415
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 2: It is still some more healing for me to do.

1416
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:10,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think healing is really important because so

1417
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:13,719
Speaker 1: many people who still have some healing to do walk

1418
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:15,799
Speaker 1: around with what I like to call the joy thief.

1419
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 1: It's this part of them that wants to steal the

1420
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 1: joy because they haven't healed yet, and there's a part

1421
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 1: of them again where they feel, I'm going to keep

1422
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:27,479
Speaker 1: things small. I'm not going to be vulnerable. I don't

1423
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:30,920
Speaker 1: want to set myself up for feeling hurt or disappointed.

1424
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,840
Speaker 1: Connection feels scary to me on a deeper level. So

1425
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 1: it's better to just let the joy thief take over,

1426
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:40,160
Speaker 1: because that way you won't get hurt, and it's so

1427
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 1: worth feeling the joy knowing this. Sometimes you're going to

1428
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:43,760
Speaker 1: get hurt a little bit.

1429
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:44,639
Speaker 3: But you can repair it.

1430
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:47,680
Speaker 1: So I hope that Nora will take more risks in

1431
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 1: that way and really talk back to the joy thief

1432
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:54,160
Speaker 1: and say, I'm not going to let you steal my joy.

1433
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,320
Speaker 2: Next week, a man whose wife of forty years has

1434
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 2: passed away wanders how to grieve while also moving forward

1435
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:04,160
Speaker 2: in a new relationship.

1436
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 4: She would say, in an accusatory way, you simply haven't

1437
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:12,519
Speaker 4: had enough time, you haven't stopped grieving, but this was

1438
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:16,160
Speaker 4: an excuse to put some distance between us.

1439
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:19,160
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1440
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:21,880
Speaker 1: free so you don't miss any episodes, and please help

1441
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 1: support your therapists by telling your friends about it and

1442
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:28,200
Speaker 1: leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help

1443
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 1: people to find the show.

1444
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:31,880
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1445
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 2: email us at laurandguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive

1446
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:41,920
Speaker 2: producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,

1447
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 2: Additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our

1448
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 2: intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our

1449
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 2: podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see

1450
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 2: you at our next session. The Therapist is a production

1451
01:16:57,040 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio Fish Food