WEBVTT - Taken 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.600 On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:08.000 in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:11.920 or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.320 vest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:18.040 Hey, Jamie, what, Caitlin. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.720 I have a very particular set of podcasting skills, well, 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:27.240 skills I have acquired over a very long career in podcasting, 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:31.640 skills that make me a blessing for people like you, 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.440 my co host of the past. 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:37.120 Yeah wow. 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.800 I mean, if charisma were a defense mechanism, maybe we'd 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:46.880 stand a chance. But unfortunately, in the world of Taken, 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:52.320 we're fucking cooked. What are his skills exactly? Not that sorry, 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.720 finding people and killing people? Really, I guess that's what 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.520 he promised. I guess in that way he does deliver. 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.199 It is frustrating that even when you're like this movie 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:10.119 is a force of evil face, or at least a 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:15.920 force of like foolishness, the monologue still hits, you know, 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.800 like you're just like, what is with that? Why is 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.800 it such a good monologue? Like even in the middle 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.720 of your like oh hate it, no, stop, no, no, 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.920 And then the monologue stars and You're like, all right, 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.680 let's hear him out. Let's hear him out. 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:33.840 You're like, Okay, this guy's kind of a thing or 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.040 two to say, and I'm listening. 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.520 He has a particular set of what you know, like, 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.480 let's let's hear him out. It's too bad anyway. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:48.120 It's the taken episode of the Bechdel Cast. Hello, my 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:49.440 name is Caitlin Durante. 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:52.360 My name is Jamie Loftus. And yeah, we have a 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:54.800 very particular set of skills that would not get us 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:59.080 out of any emergency situation, because this is the podcast 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.120 where we take your favorite movies and look at them 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:05.200 using an intersectional feminist lens. And we have chosen a 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.640 movie that I feel is both on an easy and 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.799 high difficulty level, depending on the way you look at it. 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.600 Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, but we're 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.000 gonna use our particular set of skills to really analyze 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:19.440 the shit out of this movie. 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.520 It's true. We are talking about the two thousand and 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:31.880 eight thriller Action Ba Bah taken Yes this week, But first, Kaitlyn, 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:33.960 could you let me know what the hell the Bechdel 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.600 test is? And by the bechel test, I mean, of course, 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.560 spoiler alert. A media metric this movie has no interest 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:41.359 in none whatsoever. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:42.320 Uh. Yes. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:46.480 The Bechdel Test is a media metric created by queer 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:51.119 cartoonist Alison Bechdel disappearing in her comic dex to Watch 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:55.399 Out for It was a test that appears to kind 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:59.000 of examine how women don't really talk to each other 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.080 and a lot of media or often there's just not 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.360 two of them. There just aren't two women. And if 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.079 there are two women, they're talking about men usually, So 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.239 that's the test. There are many versions of it. The 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.320 one that we use is do two characters of a 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.959 marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.959 And is there conversation about something other than a man? 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.200 And yeah, this movie even if it like passes on 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.000 a technicality which I honestly was not even paying attention to, 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.639 because it doesn't, okay. 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.480 I absolutely was keeping track. Was like, wouldn't it be 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.800 funny if this movie somehow passed? No. I think that 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:42.040 there is one arguable past At the end, when Kim 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:46.000 is untaken and she's back from the airport, parentheses not 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:50.960 reported to the authorities, and she says mom, and then 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.240 her mom says Kim and you're like, You're like, I 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.600 guess that. I mean that is important because that means 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:02.200 she got home. But we can't. We can't know on 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.880 vibes alone. This movie completely and utterly fails. 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:07.600 So very true. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:12.680 Well that's the episode, bye, Yes, we were talking about 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:17.159 Taken this week. I did not realize who some of 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.839 the primary players in this movie are, which I feel 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.840 like is revealing as to perhaps why it is the 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.000 way it is the first. Caitlin, what is your history 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:29.240 with the movie Taken? 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:30.839 Well? 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.919 Take Can is a movie I have seen before once, 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.680 though not when it came out. I slept on it 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.680 for a long time because as much as I do 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.320 like action movies, this is a subgenre of action that 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:47.280 I don't give a shit about at all. 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.720 How would you qualify this sub action. 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:57.000 Well, I guess just like toxic dudes saving a woman 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.240 question mark, I don't know why. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.520 Is sort of like I guess you could put it 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.520 under a revenge movie. 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:08.679 Yeah, like kind of thing, and I'm fine with some 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.640 revenge stories. I don't like inherently dismiss all of those. 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.360 The action movies I do like are ones that are 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:21.520 like action adventure or I love like a kind of espionage, 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.839 you know, Mission Impossible, James Bond kind of thing generally, 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:30.680 and ones that have some degree of like comic relief 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.240 or fun or rompiness to them. This movie is not 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.480 a romp because it's just it's not light at all. 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:38.320 It's not fun. 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:39.320 It's too dark. 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:41.520 Now, the parts of this movie that are funny are 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:45.799 completely by accident. Yes, my biggest laugh of this because 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.200 I will talk about my history with it in a second, 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:49.800 but like, I just hadn't seen this movie in a 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.680 long time, and I forgot the inciting act is that 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.960 a seventeen year old girl in two thousand and eight 0:05:56.120 --> 0:06:00.719 is going to follow you too around Europe. I was like, 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:06.400 these fucking like also Luke Beason screenplay and we'll get 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:08.960 to him. I mean, but like a known sex criminal 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.880 co wrote this. Yes, but the fact that they couldn't 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.720 even bother to look up act more women are tempested 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.719 in like they're like, who would have who would I 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.000 have followed around twenty years ago? 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:22.040 Oh? You too? 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.320 I guess I just can't imagine a world where and 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.520 now there's like one millennial YOUTWO fan shaking their fists. 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.839 But I'm just like, statistically unlikely, right, especially because we're 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.000 introduced with like, she's a huge fan of this pop singer, 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.680 but she's willing to put her life on the line 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:40.880 to see you too. 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:45.240 In multiple cities, following you two around Europe. 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:50.440 Crip, young women these days see you two strictly by accident, 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.480 Like it's just so, that's the funny part of the bit. 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.120 But no, Yeah, this movie takes itself very seriously. That's 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.320 a non starter. With a lot of action movies for me, 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.480 I don't like but it's just one guy. I prefer 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:07.880 a group. I prefer a little bit of levity adventure. Yeah, 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.120 this is not an adventure. This is very punishing, for sure. 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.840 So I didn't see it for many years, but I 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.320 kept seeing the meme the I have a particular shutter 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.320 skull as blah blah blah, and I was like, should 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.400 I see this movie? I guess, And then I watched 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.880 it and I was like, well, that was fucking racist 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.760 and shitty and sexist and all the horrible things. So 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:35.560 I didn't ever revisit it. What is your relationship with 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:36.480 the movie, Jamie. 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:39.680 Shockingly, I saw this movie in theaters when it came 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.560 out because I was in I mean, primarily because I 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.240 was in high school when this movie came out, sure, 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.120 and it was Friday. I think that that's the extent 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:51.160 of it. I remember going to see this movie with 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.200 my friend Kim, which was a source of fun because 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:57.600 the girl who's taken his name is Kim. Yeah, and 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.400 so for you know, weeks, months years after, you'd be like, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:06.680 where are you? So that's my primary association with this 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:08.880 movie is just like sort of a pleasant night out 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:13.040 with friends. But having lived it, I can say this 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.880 movie I didn't remember because I'd only seen it once, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.400 because even in eight I was like, this is not 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.080 my kind of movie. I just like, am I'm here 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:25.080 for the ride? Whatever? Yeah, But I do vive more 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.040 so than any detail in the movie. Besides the monologue, 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:32.840 I remember like people were the theater was absolutely packed. 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:38.560 This movie was wildly successful in spite of what it is, 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.280 which is like, also, I feel like it is interesting 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.840 to revisit movies from like this specific set of years 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.800 right now because we're heading into I think a similar 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:52.640 era in movies where it's just like recession era movies 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:57.480 and movies that have Bizarrely, I think we're like disproportionately 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:02.400 right wing y themes are becoming, you know, like critically 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:04.960 and commercially successful in a way that they might not 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:09.160 be outside of my recession. Anyway, I saw this movie 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.679 during the recession, and yeah, the crowd was freaking loving it. 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:18.200 I just remember like every line, like every monology Lineleamnising 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:22.520 gave the crowd was like like it was just it 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:26.520 was a very the vibe was electric the movie, I 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.160 thought then and more so now. At the time, I 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.000 was just like, ugh, this is boring, depressing, and I 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:37.240 don't like it. And now as an adult feminist, just like, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:43.439 this movie is boring, depressing and also racist and pro 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:48.319 military and hates women. So yeah, I didn't like it then, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.079 but I do vividly remember seeing it. And I don't 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.720 mean this as a positive, this is a neutral statement, 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.240 but I understand why this movie was successful when it 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.680 was successful, and because we're going into another era of 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.560 procession era movies, I think it's interesting to revisit. I 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.960 also knew I was aware of the sequels. I can't 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.040 say I ever took interest, but I was like, I 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.000 wonder if they first of all get rid of Lucas 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:17.080 on at any time they did not or like what happened. 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.040 I was also curious. I was like, does the daughter 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.520 just keep does she get taken? I can tell you, 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:22.679 please indulge me. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:28.360 Taken to Leonor is taken, Yes, and then it seems 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.920 that Kim sort of helps during the second act, but 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.480 then she's removed from the help by the end of 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.760 the movie. So I feel like Taken two might be 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:42.520 the closest to women being involved in the plot just 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.880 off of Wikipedia. Kim is helpful at some points, yes, 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.400 but it seems like mainly through executing what her dad 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.160 tells her, but she does do things. Taken three is 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:57.559 a return to form, but even worse because Leonor is murdered. Yeah, 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.480 Brian aka Liam Neesai, I'm not gonna call how this 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:05.080 character Brian liam Neeson is accused of her murder. Now 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.960 Kim is pregnant, she's heavy with Greg. 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:08.760 Pregnant. 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.800 Yeah, she's pregnant and Taken three and then she's taken again. 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.720 So Taking three feels just like, what can we do 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.400 to these women? We can get them pregnant and we 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.120 can kill them. And I do feel like that is 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.040 ultimately the politics of this world is what are women 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:30.360 good for? Sex and property? Because that's the thing. Like, 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:32.959 when it comes down to it, I don't know this movie. 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.120 It reminds me of a lot of a lot, a 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.880 lot a lot of movies, and some of them are 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.800 better than others. But it's just like I kept hearing 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.960 the like Sean pen read of it from Mystic River 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.880 where he's like my daughter, Like, it's like, that's all 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.760 this movie is is. It's like taking all of the 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:55.280 tropes around, specifically the relationship of fathers being possessive and 0:11:55.440 --> 0:12:00.560 overprotective of their daughters, and creating a world in which 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.480 this is the most rational behavior that could possibly be. 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:05.560 Yeah. 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.760 Yeah, I think it's like a pretty like four DHS 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:11.720 vile kind of movie. But it was, I mean, yeah, 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.360 I didn't really remember much about it, so I was 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.199 coming in pretty fresh. 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:16.440 Here. 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.320 Well, let's take a quick break and then come back 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.360 for the recap. Let's take in. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:26.320 Let's take it. 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.800 No cale, Yeah, don't get taken during the BAK going 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:35.280 to take you to an ad break. Describe the products 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.920 and services well, quite frankly, we don't know what's about 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.240 to play, but say it as loud as you can 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.360 on the phone. 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:55.720 Okay, BRB, and we're okay. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:56.240 We're back. 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:56.880 We're back. 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.480 Don't you think it's funny that? I mean, I understand 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.800 the I guess, I sort of. I don't understand. I 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.840 don't even if the writers understand. But when Kim is 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.840 taken and then Leam Neeson goes to France that he 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.040 gets under the same bed and is like my daughters 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.800 under this bed, it's. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:19.000 A little goofy. 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:24.160 Yeah, it's an extremely goofy movie. This horrible movie. But anyway, sorry, 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.680 welcome back. Let's find out what happens and taken. Let's 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:28.840 rip the band aid off. 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:36.480 Yeah, first all place of content Warning four things like coercion, abduction, sex, trafficking, 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:38.440 things of that nature. 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:39.680 Okay. 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:45.040 Liam Neeson is a guy named Brian Mills, and he 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:51.000 has a seventeen year old his daughter named Kim played 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:55.560 by Maggie Grace, who I recognized from Lost I believe. 0:13:55.800 --> 0:14:01.640 Oh yeah, I didn't watch she's in Lost. Anyway, Brian 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:06.440 doesn't see his daughter Kim that often because he was 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.760 a bit of an absentee father. He had this very 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:13.360 demanding job for a long time. And now he and 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:18.200 his wife or his ex wife, Lenore played by Famka Jansen, 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:23.080 are divorced and Kim lives with Lenore and her new husband, 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.960 this uber rich guy named Stuart, not to be confused 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:29.080 with Stuart the. 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:33.160 Minion, Although you know, we can't rule out that that 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.800 is who he's inspired by. 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:40.040 We cannot roll it out at all. 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:42.720 Unlikely but not impossible. Hm. 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:48.720 So, Brian is now retired and trying to reconnect with Kim, 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.320 but he's not making much progress. Like he tries to 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.760 go to her birthday party and give her a karaoke 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.680 machine because she's always wanted to be a singer. But 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.880 she's like, that's cool, But what about this horse that 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.520 my stepdad Stewart just gave me. 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.760 I was like, was she younger in the original draft 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.800 of this right? The way she acts and I know 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.200 she's given I'm like, it's giving thirteen, like it's not 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:16.640 being seventeen at all. 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:18.920 Ten Like, yeah, it's right. 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.640 I think these men who made this movie just don't 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.440 know what seventeen year old girls are. Like. 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:28.920 Yeah, because I was like, if I met this girl, 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.240 I'd be like, sure, Kim, Like I wouldn't be like 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.320 she's so cool, She's so. 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:35.840 Like, she's weird. 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:36.880 She's weird. 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.000 Yeah, why is she acting like a ten year old. Yeah, 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.360 so the point is Brian is trying to kind of 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:44.520 reconnect with his daughter. 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:45.680 Yeah. 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:50.640 Then Brian has a boys night with three of his 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:56.920 his little buddies, who are all former CIA operatives or something. 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.600 I have no idea, like, I just listeners are gonna 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.120 have to under I don't understand who they're working for. 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.640 I know it's the government and it's bad and they 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:06.880 think it's good. And that's as far as I was 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:08.200 willing to reflect. 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.920 Yes, yes, And he agrees to do a job with 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:17.200 his buddies. I love calling adult men and their friends' buddies. 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.160 Well, that's what the minions do. That is that's why 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:25.960 you love it, buddies, they say, buddies. The whole minion 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:27.880 you gave me. I keep it on my desk. 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.080 Ah, it's really cute. 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:31.520 It's my security minion. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.640 Well, speaking of security. 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:35.880 He is a security minion. 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.800 Brian agrees to do a job with his buddies being 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.400 security escorts for this pop star at a concert, and 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:50.200 we're like, wait a minute, lady Raven wrap Alard. 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.000 I was like, wow, how cool would it be like 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.200 in the world where this followed the rules of trap, 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:02.000 like Bono would end up untaking Liam Neeson's daughter like 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:07.080 he would be on FaceTime, being like, girls, you've got 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.760 to get me out of this bathroom. Everyone go see Trap, 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.720 whether you like it or not, I just want to. 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:17.280 I'll give m Night Shimalan money forever. I know he 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.880 doesn't need it, but I'll keep giving it to him. 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:24.879 Well, that's your prerogative. So in this movie, it's not 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:28.040 Lady Raven, it's a pop star named Shira. 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:29.080 Yeah. 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.639 And after the concert, a man tries to attack Shira 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.960 with a knife and Brian steps in and saves her. 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:40.000 He fights the attacker off in a highly trained combat 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:41.920 kind of way, and we're like, hmm. 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.200 Very particular set of skills. 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:49.879 Vibes exactly, And Shira is very grateful to Brian for 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.800 saving her life and she wants to help his daughter, Kim, 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:58.160 become a singer. The following day, Brian, his daughter, Kim, 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.720 and Lenore have where Kim reveals that she's going to 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:07.000 Paris with her friend Amanda and Amanda's cousins and she 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:12.199 needs Brian's written permission, but he isn't comfortable letting her 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.480 go because it's just going to be a bunch of 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:20.800 you know, teens and young women traveling around Europe on 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.520 their own. But he does give permission eventually on the 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.679 condition that Kim let him know where she is and 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:30.280 who she's with at all times. 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:35.240 It's very much implied that he is pressured into doing this. 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.560 By Lenore, his ex wife. 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:43.960 Yeah, yes, yeah, because Lenor is framed as being. 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:46.520 She's made out to be like and this is his 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.600 bitch ex wife, yes, which we'll talk about, which is 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.199 absurd if you go through what we know about Leonore 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:55.800 in no way, Like I feel like the way that 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.840 she's written is to seem overly severe. But there is 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.280 a read of this movie multiples almost every scene where 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:04.560 the two parents are talking, like if this was a 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.000 movie that was marketed towards women, she would be the 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:13.800 hero of the story and Liam Neeson would be the deadbeat, 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:20.320 dead antagonist basically right, Like, she's not doing anything overtly unreasonable. 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:26.040 Not at all. Yeah, it's him who's unreliable, unstable, scary, 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.119 and she seems to be doing a pretty good job. 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.560 And regardless, it's not like she is, Like I feel 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.920 like the movie treats it like she's forbidding him from 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.480 being close with his daughter, where it's like she's not. 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:40.920 She's clearly not thrilled to be spending all this time 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:43.919 with him, but it's not like she's preventing him from 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:47.320 being around her. She's just trying to enforce healthy boundaries, 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.480 understandably because he was so negligent towards her and Kim 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.280 by both of their accounts, She's like not thrilled, but 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.120 she's like, Okay, well, if Kim wants it, it's fine. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.640 But especially that one line where it's like you're talking 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:05.800 about at the cafe where she says something like she's 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.040 going to you know, like you have to let her 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.280 grow up or she's going to push you away like 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.919 that is a line in an independent coming of age 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:19.200 movie of a teenage girl where the mother is completely correct, 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.439 Like it's just so weird that it's presented like, ugh, 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.080 how could she? But it's because we know she's going 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.280 to be taken. And then Liam Neeson cannot be wrong 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:32.680 in the world of this movie. He's never wrong, right, Yeah, it's. 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:37.840 Very frustrating to watch. So Kim and her friend Amanda 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:44.800 head to Paris, and when they arrive, this man named 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.800 Peter asks them if they want to share a cab 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:53.919 ride with him. From the airport. They get to the 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.680 flat where they'll be staying and this guy, Peter is like, wow, 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.520 nice place, and Amanda is like, yeah, TIHI, we're staying 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:03.840 here all by ourselves. 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:04.760 And he's like. 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.760 Cool, want to come to a party tonight and Kim 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.120 is like, we don't know this guy, but Amanda is like. 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:13.160 Yeah, let's party. 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.359 And then as Peter is walking away, he makes a 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:22.240 very suspicious phone call giving someone the address of this 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:26.680 flat and he says like two girls around eighteen years old, 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:30.080 and we're like, oh no, what's happening now. Shortly thereafter, 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:35.520 some men come into the flat and abduct Amanda nar 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.760 which Kim sees from a different room while she's on 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:45.000 the phone with Brian, and he's like, Okay, they're going 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.040 to take you, but I need you to shout out 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.560 any details that you notice about them because he's going 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.720 to use those details to track them down and find 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:58.280 them and kill them. So the men grab Kim and 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:02.200 she yells out like six foot beard tattoo on hand 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:06.800 of Moon and Star, and then one of the abductors 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:11.080 picks up the cell phone and this is when Liam 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.520 Neeson delivers the line, I have a very particular set 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:16.160 of skills and d D. 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:20.919 I'm making the fart noise. But also maybe this is like, 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:25.400 unfortunately like a millennial sleep or cell where I hear 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.960 the speech and I was like, I did, like really 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.840 lock in because there are certain sequences of this movie 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:36.120 where it's just hard to pay attention. Sure, but yeah, 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:37.960 this speech I was there. I mean, to this day, 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:40.600 I feel like it is a cultural osmosis moment at 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:43.840 this point where you can quote sections of this speech 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:45.879 and not even fully know what you're quoting or the 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.080 context you're quoting it in. It is for sure, for 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:50.320 better or worrese iconic. 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:57.920 A similar speech for me is the Bill Pullman president 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:01.840 speech in Independence Day, Like I have the same visceral 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:04.680 reaction when I hear any segment of that. 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:06.760 See, Okay, so it is maybe it is like a 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:08.960 microgeneration because I think I couldn't tell you what that 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.000 speech says, but if you gave me a line from it, 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:12.600 I'd be like, oh, yeah, I know. 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:18.040 That right anyway, So you know, Brian delivers this whole 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:22.920 monologue and the man on the other end says good luck, 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:28.960 and then the line disconnects. Thus starts Brian's search to 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:35.560 find his daughter, and based on the dialect of Albanian 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:40.159 that the kidnappers were speaking and the hand tattoo that 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:44.520 Kim had noticed, Brian learns that this is a group 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:50.239 of organized criminals who abduct and sex traffic women. And 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:53.560 based on the data, Brian learns that he has about 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:56.400 a ninety six hour window from the time they were 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:01.280 abducted to a point where they'll never be found. So 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:05.440 Brian arrives in Paris and he breaks into the flat 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:08.080 where Kim and Amanda were going to be staying. He 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:12.280 finds the SD card or whatever from the smashed phone 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:14.160 of Kim's. 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:16.520 Good two thousand and eight detail yeah. 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:20.080 Yeah, And he looks through the photos that were on 0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:24.320 the phone and finds a picture that Peter took of 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:27.640 Kim and Amanda at the airport, which shows a reflection 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:31.840 of Peter and the whole action movie thing of enhance, 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.680 you know, zooming into a very pixelated photo that suddenly 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:38.600 magically becomes very crystal clear, a. 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:41.560 Lot of like, yeah, hacker, who coudes YadA YadA. Yeah, 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:43.680 it's kind of fun. 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.320 M hm. And so now Brian knows what Peter looks like, 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:50.879 and he finds Peter at the airport, trying the same 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:56.760 taxi sharing trick on another woman. Brian attacks him and 0:24:56.840 --> 0:25:00.800 chases Peter, who gets hit by a truck and killed. 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:07.719 So then Brian links up with a friend slash colleague 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:12.879 slash French cop named Sean Claude who tells him about 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:22.200 a specific area, Porte de Clichi, Frenchy, where these traffickers 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:25.040 are known to hang out. So Brian goes to this 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:30.000 area and talks to a woman who has been sex 0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:34.240 trafficked and asks her a bunch of questions. Basically, he's 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:39.680 stalling knowing that a trafficker will come up and hassle him, 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:42.399 which is what he wanted so that he can plant 0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:44.480 a microphone on freight sky. 0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:46.160 Yeah. 0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:51.520 And so then Brian has a translator interpret the conversation 0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:57.359 that these traffickers are having in Albanian, which is about 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:01.240 a construction site and a problem with the quote unquote 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:05.920 new merchandise cut to this construction site. We don't know 0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:08.760 how Brian figured out where it was or anything like that, 0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:11.160 but he conveniently and magically find. 0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:15.800 A very particular set of skills, which is his particular 0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:18.000 set of skills is that he actually has a copy 0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:19.080 of the script. 0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:21.919 Takes yeah, and he knew exactly what location to go 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:26.240 to yeh. So he goes there and this construction site 0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:30.920 turns out to be a derelict brothel and he's looking 0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:35.040 around and he finds the jacket Kim was wearing when 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:38.159 she flew to Paris. But the woman in this like 0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:43.560 enclosure is not his daughter. He takes this woman with him. 0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:44.480 He takens her. 0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:48.520 He takens yes, but not in a bad way. He 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:51.000 takens her in a good way. 0:26:50.960 --> 0:26:52.120 Yeah, question for good. 0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:58.560 After he fights off several of the traffickers and he 0:26:58.600 --> 0:27:02.199 gets to a hotel room and provides medical care to 0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:06.639 the woman. She seems heavily drugged, and she eventually comes 0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:10.360 to and tells Brian that Kim gave her the jacket 0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:13.359 while they were in the house with the red door, 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:17.560 and she remembers what STREETA was on. So Brian goes 0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:20.240 to the house with the red door, pretending to be 0:27:20.480 --> 0:27:24.920 a cop who is there under the guise of negotiating 0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:29.919 an extortion deal. Basically, the traffickers will pay law enforcement 0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:33.639 to keep quiet about the illegal things they're doing, but 0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:37.600 what Brian is actually there to do is to find 0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:40.480 which guy he spoke to on the phone who told 0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:44.200 him good luck. It's this boss named Marcos. 0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:47.440 They play the voice and I was like, it honestly 0:27:47.560 --> 0:27:50.760 doesn't sound doesn't sound the same, it's similar. I was like, what, 0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:55.560 uh huh. I guess yeah, if you say so, But 0:27:55.680 --> 0:27:59.000 I was like, that could have been most guys. 0:28:00.720 --> 0:28:01.560 Yes, exactly. 0:28:02.640 --> 0:28:08.679 But somehow he identifies Marcos and he kills the dozen 0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:11.760 or so other men in the house. He finds a 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:16.320 bunch of trafficked women there, one of whom is Kim's 0:28:16.359 --> 0:28:20.960 friend Amanda, who is dead from an apparent drug overdose, 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:25.080 but he does not find Kim, so Brian tortures Marcos, 0:28:25.280 --> 0:28:31.119 who reveals that they don't keep women who are virgins. Instead, 0:28:31.640 --> 0:28:38.200 they traffic them further to different traffickers, this particular boss 0:28:38.360 --> 0:28:42.040 named Patrise Saint Clair, but Marcos doesn't know where to 0:28:42.040 --> 0:28:46.080 find this guy. Then there's a scene where Brian goes 0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:49.800 back to his cop friend Jean Claude to his house, 0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:54.120 suspecting that he might be involved in actual, you know, 0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:58.040 extortion and collusion that the French police are doing with 0:28:58.080 --> 0:29:01.719 the traffickers, and Brian is correct in this assumption, so 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:05.800 he shoots Jean Claude's wife in the arm to show 0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:08.960 him that he means business, and then he has Jean 0:29:09.040 --> 0:29:13.120 Claude look up Patrise Saint Clair in the police database 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:16.920 and get an address for him. So Brian goes to 0:29:16.960 --> 0:29:20.720 this address. It's a mansion. There's some kind of party happening, 0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:26.920 and there's also an auction happening where this Patrise guy 0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:31.760 is auctioning off these trafficked women for hundreds of thousands 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.200 of dollars. Brian goes into this private room of one 0:29:35.240 --> 0:29:40.479 of the buyers and forces him to buy Kim, and 0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:43.560 he thinks this is going to be how he rescues Kim, 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:48.560 but then Brian is knocked out by one of Patrese's minions. 0:29:49.520 --> 0:29:52.320 Brian wakes up, he fights back. He finds out where 0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:56.520 they're taking Kim. She's being loaded onto a yacht, so 0:29:56.600 --> 0:30:01.480 he kills Patrise and then goes after this that belongs 0:30:01.520 --> 0:30:06.720 to a sheikh who had bought Kim. Brian jumps on board, 0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:11.959 kills everyone, and saves his daughter, and then the movie 0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:16.280 ends with Kim safe at home with her family and 0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:21.400 Brian surprises her by taking her to the home of Shira, 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:24.720 the pop star from earlier. So that she can help 0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:27.080 Kim with her music career. 0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:33.000 The oh my god, it's stressful. 0:30:33.840 --> 0:30:41.440 Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss. 0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:52.640 And we're back from having taken a break. 0:30:53.000 --> 0:30:58.040 Yeah, we're back at lax after narrowly escaping our doom 0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:01.600 where she begins. I mean, I want to say, like, 0:31:01.640 --> 0:31:03.200 I just want to lead with the fact that I 0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:05.600 felt like there was no amount of research that I 0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:09.880 could have done that was going to be a propriate 0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:14.760 for this episode. This is a deceptively complicated movie to 0:31:14.840 --> 0:31:19.120 talk about, yes, because of all of the various heavy 0:31:19.240 --> 0:31:24.560 themes that it is attempting to address. Not a heavy 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:28.680 lift to say that maybe it's not sufficient, you know, 0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:31.120 I feel like this movie suffers from a lot of 0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:36.000 the tropes were used to seeing in action thrillers. That 0:31:36.240 --> 0:31:42.200 being a really you know, pro military, pro masculine, sidelining 0:31:42.240 --> 0:31:46.520 women characters, marginalizing any non white character. This is all 0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:50.240 part and parcel to action thrillers, and this movie is 0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:54.000 not pushing back on any of those very common problems. 0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:58.600 But on top of that, it's adding the deeply complicated 0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:02.520 issue of sex traffic. Yes, in a way that I 0:32:02.600 --> 0:32:05.400 honestly I mean, it's an issue that I am under 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:12.320 educated on and is particularly for a group of writers 0:32:12.360 --> 0:32:16.080 that include a known sex criminal. 0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:18.520 Known sex criminal Luke Basson, Yeah. 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:23.480 Using sex trafficking in what appears to be a very 0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:27.280 callous plot driven way, like just add sort of an 0:32:27.400 --> 0:32:31.880 extra layer to this movie where you know, I feel 0:32:31.880 --> 0:32:33.480 like at this point, you know, you can talk about 0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:37.200 the tropes that surround action thrillers, and we have on 0:32:37.240 --> 0:32:39.640 this show quite a bit, and we will again today, 0:32:39.680 --> 0:32:41.960 but like, and I guess I would be curious of 0:32:42.000 --> 0:32:44.040 what I was struggling to find. I don't know if 0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:46.480 you found anything to this effect, and I'd be curious 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:50.440 if listeners have thoughts on this is like, is there 0:32:50.480 --> 0:32:54.120 a reason that that layer is being added in this 0:32:54.280 --> 0:32:57.720 particular moment, you know where It's like there's plenty of 0:32:57.720 --> 0:33:00.440 action thrillers that have come out before and since that 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:04.680 do not include this element. Is this a unclear why 0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:07.640 this is the moment where sex trafficking is being introduced 0:33:07.640 --> 0:33:11.360 into the action thriller space or is there a particular 0:33:11.400 --> 0:33:14.320 reason why the late two thousands, like there was a 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:17.600 I mean, obviously not interest, but like a market for 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:22.000 this particular theme. I really like I mean, if I 0:33:22.080 --> 0:33:24.840 had had several days to get ready, I would maybe 0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:30.440 understand better. But yeah, that layer added to again just 0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:34.000 all of the things that we are used to pushing 0:33:34.040 --> 0:33:36.800 back on in this genre was very jarring. 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:38.160 Yeah. 0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:43.600 I didn't find anything about possible like cultural context that 0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:47.760 might have informed why that layer was added. It could 0:33:47.840 --> 0:33:51.720 just be well, we haven't seen many movies yet where 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:56.080 this is the thing, so let's try it. I have 0:33:56.160 --> 0:33:59.560 no idea. What I do know is that they horribly 0:33:59.560 --> 0:34:05.600 misred present what sex trafficking is. Yes, I found something 0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:11.680 from the Polaris Project, which is a nonprofit organization that 0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:17.520 is leading a survivor centered and justice and equity driven 0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:20.200 movement to end human trafficking. 0:34:20.840 --> 0:34:20.920 Hi. 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:25.200 Everyone, it's Caitlin from the future. Wanted to jump in 0:34:25.280 --> 0:34:29.040 right here and say that. After we released this episode, 0:34:29.320 --> 0:34:33.080 a few listeners pointed out that the Polaris Project has 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:39.000 a history of problematic behavior, such as they have been 0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:44.280 known to spread misinformation, Their hotline doesn't respond to tips 0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:48.440 related to people doing consensual sex work. They've lobbied for 0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:53.200 policies that harm sex workers, things of that nature. We 0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:56.480 did not realize that at the time. We absolutely should 0:34:56.480 --> 0:35:01.080 have investigated this organization more closely to say there's no 0:35:01.440 --> 0:35:04.600 merit to the work they do, but it is not 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:08.719 the best resource we could have consulted, considering Jamie's and 0:35:08.760 --> 0:35:14.560 my stance on being pro consensual sex work is legitimate work, 0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:20.280 pro workers' rights of sex workers. So, as you're about 0:35:20.320 --> 0:35:23.920 to hear, we quote from the Polaris Project a few times, 0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:28.040 mostly in relation to what they say about this specific movie. 0:35:28.680 --> 0:35:31.920 But we just wanted to acknowledge that we now know 0:35:32.080 --> 0:35:36.600 more about this organization and we apologize for not researching 0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:40.920 them more carefully before recording this episode. Thank you so 0:35:41.000 --> 0:35:43.960 much to those listeners who provided more information to us. 0:35:44.440 --> 0:35:47.680 We always appreciate listeners doing that. We're always wanting to 0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:52.440 learn and grow, so thank you again. So again, just 0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:57.120 wanted to pop in here and provide that additional context 0:35:57.800 --> 0:36:03.600 acknowledge some of the shortcomings of this organization. And we're 0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:07.200 about to cut back into the original episode now talking 0:36:07.239 --> 0:36:12.360 about something that this organization published on their website regarding 0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:15.960 the movie. So here we go back to the original episode, 0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:23.280 and they put out a like an online guide entitled 0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:28.720 telling the Real Story of Human Trafficking, and it basically 0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:33.000 gives a bunch of information about what human trafficking actually. 0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:35.840 Is, like, right, because this movie is so frequently conflates 0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:38.480 sex trafficking with sex work, which is like one of 0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:40.759 the more dangerous things that it does. 0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:47.279 Right, And this guide offers guidance imagine that, oh, on 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:52.719 how to make content and tell stories about human trafficking 0:36:52.760 --> 0:36:56.040 if that's something you're interested in doing in an accurate 0:36:56.120 --> 0:37:01.160 and responsible way. Saying that quote in the anti human 0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:05.560 trafficking world, Taken has become a shorthand for how not 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:08.400 to make content about human trafficking. 0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:09.919 Yes, I saw this piece as well. 0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:14.640 Yeah, so this guide starts by saying about the film 0:37:14.880 --> 0:37:19.840 Taken quote. Unfortunately, it has the unintended effect of completely 0:37:19.880 --> 0:37:24.240 miseducating the public about what human trafficking is, how it happens, 0:37:24.280 --> 0:37:27.640 and who it happens too. Nearly fifteen years later, those 0:37:27.680 --> 0:37:30.399 of us who work in the anti trafficking field are 0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:34.640 still managing the consequences. Indeed, we often start out saying 0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:38.600 things like, you know that movie Taken, Well, that's not 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:42.360 really how trafficking happens unquote. 0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:44.960 Right, I mean, and I remember that being a conversation 0:37:45.040 --> 0:37:46.759 at the time the movie came out. I don't know 0:37:46.800 --> 0:37:48.759 as we're talking about it, because I'm also seeing that 0:37:48.840 --> 0:37:51.080 there was. It's interesting because I feel like this is 0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:53.640 sort of side to take in. But I guess just 0:37:53.680 --> 0:37:58.000 in terms of the issue of sex trafficking and miseducation 0:37:58.080 --> 0:38:01.919 around sex trafficking being prevalent in American culture at this time, 0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:05.759 there were congressional laws passed around this time, but it 0:38:05.800 --> 0:38:10.759 had to do more with cyber sex trafficking, which is 0:38:10.840 --> 0:38:14.480 really not what Taken is talking about it all, which 0:38:14.480 --> 0:38:16.319 I think is interesting, like it is off of a 0:38:16.360 --> 0:38:19.920 real world encounter. Just I don't know. This is like 0:38:20.040 --> 0:38:21.719 bring I wonder if I've ever brought it up on 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:24.239 this show. I know I've talked about it previously, but 0:38:24.360 --> 0:38:29.960 like I remember as a kid having cyber sex trafficking 0:38:30.239 --> 0:38:34.680 cautionary tales told to me a lot at school, Like 0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:38.840 there was a computer game in like computer class. I 0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:41.120 feel so old, but like this is I'm wondering if 0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:43.960 there's like any other young millennials listening that, Like we 0:38:44.040 --> 0:38:46.759 had computer class and we would play three games in 0:38:46.800 --> 0:38:48.879 the course of class. It would be like a math game, 0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:52.640 a literacy game, and then an anti cyber sex trafficking 0:38:52.719 --> 0:38:57.880 game and the game was called Oh Gosh, I believe 0:38:57.920 --> 0:39:00.759 it was called Stolen. This was before and came out. 0:39:01.719 --> 0:39:06.400 But you are playing as the father of, or like 0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:09.120 an investigator working with the father of a child who 0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:13.239 has been abducted and is being cyber sex trafficked, and 0:39:13.280 --> 0:39:15.960 it is your mission, as a twelve year old computer 0:39:16.040 --> 0:39:20.120 game player to save this child and learn about what 0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:24.719 was at least purported to be the common showings of 0:39:24.840 --> 0:39:27.600 cyber sex trafficking at that time. So, for example, the 0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:32.839 character met a man who lied about his identity on 0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:37.680 a message board and then was flown out to Also, 0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:40.000 California is a big thing with the game, where they're 0:39:40.000 --> 0:39:44.360 like California, the world whatever. It was not a good education, 0:39:44.480 --> 0:39:47.600 but I do remember like this being something that was 0:39:47.680 --> 0:39:50.279 like pushed to me at a public school, of like 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:55.560 a fear of technology, which makes more Again, you know, 0:39:55.640 --> 0:40:00.239 Americans are just miseducated on this subject wholesale. I'm not 0:40:00.239 --> 0:40:02.640 saying that I'm so glad I played this computer game 0:40:02.680 --> 0:40:05.080 and it kept me safe. It was I remember being 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:09.520 quite afraid of it, but sowing a fear of technology 0:40:09.640 --> 0:40:12.680 at least that holds a little like more consistently than 0:40:12.880 --> 0:40:16.320 I don't know again, taking it just seems so random 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:21.560 and based in just like the various prejudices and interests 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:24.920 of the writers. It's not even like like there's a 0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:27.759 million horror movies about AI right now, because that is 0:40:27.800 --> 0:40:30.480 the technological development that people are afraid of, and at 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:33.440 the time it would have just been the internet conceptually 0:40:33.560 --> 0:40:36.120 would be like what you would say is going to 0:40:36.200 --> 0:40:38.520 kill you or sex traffic you, or do the worst 0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:41.560 thing you can think of. Right, I don't understand why 0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:44.080 this movie was so popular, right. 0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:48.360 I wonder if because the movie Hostile came out a 0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:52.759 few years earlier, and that was the movie about If 0:40:52.800 --> 0:40:57.240 I'm remembering correctly, it's a movie about American tourists going 0:40:58.000 --> 0:41:01.200 to Europe. And I also don't remember exactly where they go, 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:06.320 but it's a place in Europe that the movie is like, actually, 0:41:06.400 --> 0:41:09.319 this area is really unsafe and if you stay in 0:41:09.360 --> 0:41:13.920 a hostel you'll be murdered. So I wonder if Taikan 0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:18.160 was almost kind of using that playbook of like beware 0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:23.839 of travel to Euroine, beware of Eastern Europeans because they're 0:41:24.000 --> 0:41:25.480 so scary. 0:41:25.360 --> 0:41:27.680 Which in some ways is like hearkening back to the 0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:30.080 Red Scare, which has also never really left us, and like, 0:41:30.440 --> 0:41:32.720 I don't know, I would be curious if Alicitor has 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:36.520 a clear concise reason why the two thousands were littered 0:41:36.719 --> 0:41:40.680 with this particular kind of story. I mean, and I 0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:43.319 also think we were you know, came up in the 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:46.440 age of like the Elizabeth Smart abduction. And another thing 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:48.440 that I think this movie is very guilty of and 0:41:48.560 --> 0:41:53.399 doesn't examine at all is missing white girls syndrome and 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:57.680 how you know, to expand a little bit on our 0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:02.520 discussion of how sex trafficking and human trafficking in general 0:42:02.760 --> 0:42:05.839 is used as a plot point in this movie, and 0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:10.800 again we are not experts, but that how this movie 0:42:10.920 --> 0:42:17.040 intentionally centers a privileged young American sis white girl, not yeah, 0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:22.040 she's still a child in this story, when it is 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:27.279 statistically far more likely for young people and particularly young 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:30.359 women in films of color and indigenous people to fall 0:42:30.520 --> 0:42:33.680 victim to this specific type of crime. But I like, 0:42:33.760 --> 0:42:38.040 as is very often in media, both fictional media like 0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:43.480 this and just who receives attention from local and national 0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:49.120 media when they are taken missing whatever. It is far 0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:53.800 more statistically likely since the beginning of mass media for 0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:58.520 white women to receive priority in terms of who gets 0:42:58.560 --> 0:43:02.759 the attention for during after, And I mean there is 0:43:03.400 --> 0:43:07.520 infinite media to this extent. We've talked about it on 0:43:07.560 --> 0:43:10.840 the show of how many Indigenous women regularly go missing 0:43:10.960 --> 0:43:13.879 or are killed and it never, it rarely, if ever, 0:43:13.960 --> 0:43:20.839 breaks into mass media, whereas if a white woman experiences 0:43:20.920 --> 0:43:24.560 the same horrific event, it is far more likely to 0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:29.560 be discussed. Again, it is horrible when this happens to anybody, Yes, 0:43:29.680 --> 0:43:33.600 but in terms of yeah, where priority is given, in 0:43:33.719 --> 0:43:38.360 terms of even acknowledgment, if not resources to be assisted 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:42.040 and rescued and preventive measures. I mean, the human trafficking 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:46.399 world is no exception to that, to the point where 0:43:46.440 --> 0:43:49.319 I mean again not to say that well, I guess 0:43:49.320 --> 0:43:52.879 I can't say that taken would not happen, But it's 0:43:52.960 --> 0:43:56.400 just I don't know. It's like a wealthy white young 0:43:56.520 --> 0:43:59.840 tour like, it's of course someone's going to come looking. 0:44:01.040 --> 0:44:03.799 She's like a millionaire's a billionaire's stepdaughter. 0:44:04.120 --> 0:44:08.520 And yeah, while it's not impossible that a wealthy white 0:44:08.560 --> 0:44:12.520 girl would be targeted for trafficking, it's far more likely 0:44:13.360 --> 0:44:18.680 that a person more marginalized than someone like Kim would 0:44:18.719 --> 0:44:19.400 be targeted. 0:44:19.800 --> 0:44:21.400 Right, And it's not to say that we have no 0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:24.319 empathy for this character. Of course we do, but it 0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:26.640 is Yeah, I mean, given the fact that again this 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:32.760 is a Lupusson co write, even outside of his personal crimes, 0:44:33.160 --> 0:44:35.719 go back and listen to our lean on the professional episode, 0:44:36.680 --> 0:44:39.640 you know, someone with a notoriously bad track record on 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:43.640 women and also on the issue of sex work and 0:44:43.680 --> 0:44:48.440 sex trafficking. It's just really hard to take this story 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:52.120 at face value because it's bringing in a very serious issue, 0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:58.200 completely misunderstanding it and not really acknowledging at all how 0:44:58.520 --> 0:45:02.640 the people who do suffer this are disproportionately marginalized, and 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:05.600 that is not an interest, Like this story has nothing 0:45:05.640 --> 0:45:11.000 to say about human trafficking, certainly not. Furthermore, the protagonist 0:45:11.160 --> 0:45:13.920 doesn't really care about the issue outside of how it 0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:14.800 affects his daughter. 0:45:14.920 --> 0:45:17.240 Okay, so that was one of my big things. 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:20.600 He literally says repeatedly, I don't care, I will not 0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:23.399 report you, just give me my daughter back. 0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:23.839 Yeah. 0:45:23.960 --> 0:45:28.479 Yeah, it's confounding. I kept having this question, like, by 0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:31.640 the end of the movie, does he make any effort 0:45:31.760 --> 0:45:36.640 to save all of the women who have been trafficked or. 0:45:36.640 --> 0:45:37.320 Just his daughter? 0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:41.239 And the answer is his daughter plus that one other 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:44.719 woman who he only saves in order to get information 0:45:45.560 --> 0:45:46.200 about his daughter. 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:48.839 But I think that we're supposed to Yeah, we'll get 0:45:48.840 --> 0:45:50.440 into Liam Neeson in a second. The other thing I 0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:55.040 wanted to say, as it pertains to human trafficking again, 0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:57.880 I feel icky. I hope that we're not completely missing 0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:00.279 the mark here, but the fact that they're is an 0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:05.400 emphasis put on Kim's virginity in terms of what makes 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:11.719 her valuable that is based in some truth. I did 0:46:11.760 --> 0:46:14.920 some background research we can link to it that of 0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:18.319 course it is. This is all immoral and very fucked up, 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:23.319 but virginity is brought up as a plus in this 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:29.200 very twisted world. So it's like it's reflecting something what 0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:34.680 bothers me besides everything in the movie. But it's like, 0:46:34.719 --> 0:46:39.040 I feel like the writing rises to agree with the 0:46:39.080 --> 0:46:43.360 sex traffickers in this where there is a morality attached 0:46:43.480 --> 0:46:47.520 to virginity and a slut shaming between the characters, specifically 0:46:47.680 --> 0:46:50.680 of Kim and Amanda, the two friends that go to 0:46:50.760 --> 0:46:57.080 Europe together. Amanda is presented as hornier basically where for sure, 0:46:57.200 --> 0:47:00.640 yeah she's more rebellious. She says like, oh should I 0:47:00.640 --> 0:47:03.200 hook up with this guy and Kim when they first arrive, 0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:05.480 it's like, but you don't even know him, Oh my gosh, 0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:08.560 blah blah blah, which is like whatever teenage girls, you 0:47:08.560 --> 0:47:11.680 can feel whatever way you want, but there is by 0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:16.919 the writers a moral application because Amanda we are sort 0:47:16.960 --> 0:47:20.000 of indicated she she is not a virgin, and so 0:47:20.200 --> 0:47:24.960 she dies and Liam Neeson does he call her parent? 0:47:25.080 --> 0:47:28.520 Like what happens? Does anyone get in touch with this 0:47:28.800 --> 0:47:29.560 girl's family? 0:47:29.719 --> 0:47:30.440 We don't know. 0:47:31.040 --> 0:47:34.359 Maybe maybe it's referenced and taken to, but like there 0:47:34.400 --> 0:47:37.000 is almost say like it is again like her death 0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:40.879 is a plot thing where Liam Neeson's like, Okay, Kim 0:47:41.000 --> 0:47:43.520 was here, but now she's not because here's Amanda and 0:47:43.560 --> 0:47:47.880 she's dead, and Amanda seems like she died because she 0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:50.920 was not a virgin. Essentially, like that I think is 0:47:50.960 --> 0:47:54.279 the internal plot logic, and that it's the morality that 0:47:54.360 --> 0:47:58.719 is attached to Kim's virginity that keeps her alive long 0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:02.920 enough to be resky. It's just so fucking dark. So 0:48:03.040 --> 0:48:06.160 even though it's like, even if that is based in 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:10.760 a reference point that does take place in the real world, 0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:16.359 it's written to I think like reinforce, it in this 0:48:16.680 --> 0:48:19.040 weird way where it's like horror movie logic of like 0:48:19.080 --> 0:48:22.319 a girl who has sex is going to die and 0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:23.239 deserves it. 0:48:24.120 --> 0:48:27.319 There are other implications that we'll get into, because this 0:48:27.360 --> 0:48:31.200 is a whole separate conversation about the racism and xenophobia 0:48:31.239 --> 0:48:35.439 in this movie. Yeah, the implications revolving around a very 0:48:35.480 --> 0:48:39.920 reductive view of Islam, but we'll get to that in 0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:44.640 a second. The other thing I wanted to say about 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:49.400 this movie misrepresenting sex trafficking is that, and again this 0:48:49.480 --> 0:48:55.280 is according to that piece from the Polarist Project saying, quote, 0:48:55.520 --> 0:49:00.120 people in sex trafficking situations almost always know and to 0:49:00.239 --> 0:49:04.960 even trust or love their traffickers. Traffickers target vulnerable people 0:49:05.000 --> 0:49:08.880 who have needs that the traffickers can fill. Sometimes they 0:49:08.920 --> 0:49:11.720 offer material support, a place to live, clothing, a chance 0:49:11.800 --> 0:49:15.400 to get rich quick. Other times they offer love, emotional support, 0:49:15.480 --> 0:49:19.120 or a sense of belonging. Kidnapping victims and forcing them 0:49:19.239 --> 0:49:23.600 into the sex trade through violence is rare, unquote. So 0:49:23.640 --> 0:49:28.560 this movie presents it is like, Oh, these scary boogeymen 0:49:28.960 --> 0:49:34.880 from Albania who just target people kind of at random. 0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:40.000 That's who sex traffickers are. So this is just another 0:49:40.040 --> 0:49:45.440 way in which this movie doesn't really understand sex trafficking. 0:49:46.239 --> 0:49:50.879 And as you already alluded to, it's media like this 0:49:51.239 --> 0:49:58.520 that conflates sex trafficking with like consensual sex work, and 0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:03.400 it's movies like this it position sex work as something 0:50:03.760 --> 0:50:07.560 that people are doing against their will and it only 0:50:07.600 --> 0:50:11.040 happens because they have been trafficked, and things like that 0:50:11.080 --> 0:50:14.000 and just the things that contribute to the stigma and 0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:16.200 negative perception of sex work. And of course there's a 0:50:16.280 --> 0:50:20.160 huge difference between people who are coerced and sex trafficked 0:50:20.640 --> 0:50:24.520 and adults who are doing the legitimate work that is 0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:28.080 sex work, and they're doing so consensually, by their own 0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:31.239 accord and on their own terms. All this to say, 0:50:32.000 --> 0:50:35.480 the movie kind of it doesn't directly conflate these two 0:50:35.520 --> 0:50:38.440 things necessarily, but it does, I think, contribute to this 0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:43.080 larger stigma of a just kind of misunderstanding of sex 0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:47.320 work being separate from being the victim or the survivor 0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:49.239 of sex trafficking. 0:50:49.640 --> 0:50:52.400 Just having seen this movie when I was a teenager, 0:50:52.440 --> 0:50:56.400 I would say it does directly conflate the two because 0:50:56.920 --> 0:50:59.560 I can tell you seeing this movie as a like 0:51:00.640 --> 0:51:06.399 fifteen year olds, I did not understand the difference. As 0:51:06.440 --> 0:51:11.919 a naive kid that did not understand what human trafficking 0:51:12.280 --> 0:51:15.640 nor sex work really was outside of the scope of movies, 0:51:15.960 --> 0:51:18.600 I think that this movie actually kind of does dangerously 0:51:18.680 --> 0:51:22.320 conflate the two because even in the scene where Liam 0:51:22.360 --> 0:51:26.640 Neeson is approaching who I thought was a sex worker, 0:51:27.960 --> 0:51:31.799 she is reacting with the same amount of fear and 0:51:31.840 --> 0:51:34.880 coercion as we see people we know to be human 0:51:34.880 --> 0:51:36.040 trafficking victims are. 0:51:36.680 --> 0:51:38.600 And so I can. 0:51:38.480 --> 0:51:41.399 Say for sure, like if you're cause I mean, this 0:51:41.440 --> 0:51:43.840 is I mean, I wouldn't even say that majority teenagers 0:51:43.880 --> 0:51:46.200 are going to see movies like this, but this is 0:51:46.239 --> 0:51:50.920 a genre that does touch from teenagers to old heads. 0:51:50.960 --> 0:51:53.840 And I can say for sure that like when I 0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:56.320 first saw this movie, I did not understand the difference, 0:51:56.360 --> 0:51:59.160 and the movie did nothing. Not that it is the 0:51:59.280 --> 0:52:03.080 job of any movie to like educate you on the nuances, 0:52:03.400 --> 0:52:06.120 but it is the job of the movie to be clear. 0:52:06.760 --> 0:52:10.239 And I just don't think that this movie really was 0:52:10.280 --> 0:52:12.880 at all because otherwise, like this movie takes place in 0:52:12.920 --> 0:52:15.680 a vacuum where sex work does not exist, you know, 0:52:16.840 --> 0:52:20.760 I think it is like tacitly saying that all sex 0:52:20.880 --> 0:52:23.680 work is human trafficking, which is like a very dangerous 0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:26.840 and wrong thing to imply. 0:52:28.000 --> 0:52:30.640 I feel like I had a similar perception of it 0:52:30.719 --> 0:52:34.520 for at least some amount of time in my youth. 0:52:34.760 --> 0:52:36.319 I mean, I'm talking about when I was a kid. 0:52:36.360 --> 0:52:38.879 Like I was, I had no fucking clue about right. 0:52:38.960 --> 0:52:42.400 And it's because of media depictions like this that don't 0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:47.120 understand the distinction absolutely and just again contribute to this 0:52:47.640 --> 0:52:55.200 horrible stigma and assume that people who engage in sex 0:52:55.239 --> 0:52:59.399 work consensually are not actually doing so consentially, they are 0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:03.200 being forced and coerced into it. And that also comes 0:53:03.239 --> 0:53:08.880 with a lot of like victim blaming and shaming of 0:53:09.000 --> 0:53:12.560 people struggling with addiction issues, and you know, a whole 0:53:12.560 --> 0:53:16.640 slew of things. But yeah, this this movie is very 0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:21.560 guilty of just painting things in a very broad way 0:53:21.960 --> 0:53:25.719 and ignoring all of the nuance when it comes to 0:53:25.880 --> 0:53:27.120 this topic. 0:53:27.280 --> 0:53:31.480 And again, it's not a shocker from a co writer 0:53:31.520 --> 0:53:36.920 who's an accused sex just absolutely horrific woman although he 0:53:37.040 --> 0:53:38.840 was not formally. 0:53:38.440 --> 0:53:40.479 Convicted, that doesn't mean shit. 0:53:40.840 --> 0:53:42.960 That's something that we can take up with France. 0:53:43.120 --> 0:53:46.919 Yeah, well, France is also fucking harboring Roman plan Ski 0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:47.919 and shit like that. 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:51.600 So that's what I mean. Yeah, France is famously bad 0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:55.600 of this issue, not that America is any better anyways, right, Yeah, So, 0:53:55.640 --> 0:53:57.759 I mean I think that that was all I had 0:53:57.800 --> 0:54:02.240 to say on the sex trafficking versus sex where conflation front. 0:54:02.520 --> 0:54:05.640 The one last thing I have is just to go 0:54:05.719 --> 0:54:09.360 full circle on the does Liam Neeson attempt to save 0:54:09.680 --> 0:54:14.840 any of the other people who have been targeted for 0:54:14.880 --> 0:54:18.600 sex trafficking? And the answers pretty much know no, which 0:54:18.680 --> 0:54:23.600 is a version of that patriarchal value when a man 0:54:23.719 --> 0:54:28.239 says I love and respect women, but that only extends 0:54:28.280 --> 0:54:33.000 to the man's wife, his wife, or his daughter or 0:54:33.040 --> 0:54:37.239 maybe his mother. Basically only women that they know personally, 0:54:37.760 --> 0:54:42.040 and usually women that they feel some type of ownership over. Absolutely, 0:54:42.080 --> 0:54:46.320 because men like this like never care about women's issues. 0:54:46.440 --> 0:54:49.960 They never care about like the devastating effects of rape 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:53.440 culture or anything like that. They just care about women 0:54:53.520 --> 0:54:57.319 who they feel belong to them. And this movie is 0:54:57.600 --> 0:55:01.560 very much giving those nasty vibes. 0:55:01.840 --> 0:55:07.360 So and it seems like the entire franchise does, because yeah, 0:55:07.440 --> 0:55:11.400 I think it wouldn't have improved the movie meaningfully, But 0:55:11.560 --> 0:55:14.319 like even a cliffhanger if you're trying to make this 0:55:14.400 --> 0:55:18.200 into a franchise of like, Okay, I have liberated my daughter, 0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:22.360 and now I'm gonna go back and liberate the rest 0:55:22.360 --> 0:55:26.360 of the victims of this human trafficking ring. Something some 0:55:26.600 --> 0:55:29.640 indication that he has an interest in anyone who is 0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:33.760 not married or blood related to him, but there isn't 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:36.280 and it doesn't seem like that ever really changes. 0:55:37.120 --> 0:55:37.359 Yeah. 0:55:37.400 --> 0:55:40.640 From there, should we get into the racism and xenophobia 0:55:40.680 --> 0:55:43.759 of this movie, because this was something that while I 0:55:43.880 --> 0:55:50.080 did not have the education to understand the completely incorrect 0:55:50.160 --> 0:55:54.440 messaging around human trafficking and sex work that this movie provides, 0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:57.120 I was able at fifteen to understand that this movie 0:55:57.200 --> 0:55:58.560 is extremely racist. 0:55:59.480 --> 0:56:04.759 Yes, absolutely, All the good guys are white Americans and 0:56:04.880 --> 0:56:10.279 all the bad guys are non American and or not white. 0:56:10.160 --> 0:56:13.240 Which is wild because this is like a half French movie, 0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:17.279 and even the French guys are generally bad people. The 0:56:17.320 --> 0:56:18.320 white French guys. 0:56:18.560 --> 0:56:22.720 Yeah, there's an exception, which is Patrise Saint Clair, who 0:56:22.760 --> 0:56:24.720 is a white American man, or at least he speaks 0:56:24.760 --> 0:56:28.320 English with an American accent. We don't know his nationality necessarily. 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:32.240 Yeah, the guy, it's like it's just business. And then yeah, 0:56:32.520 --> 0:56:35.279 you're like all right, but. 0:56:35.320 --> 0:56:40.160 By and large we have a group of Albanian characters, 0:56:40.680 --> 0:56:44.080 and then later on in the movie there are Arab characters, 0:56:44.320 --> 0:56:49.400 and both of them, in some overlapping in some different ways, 0:56:49.560 --> 0:56:55.640 are portrayed in just awful ways where they're criminals, they're 0:56:55.880 --> 0:56:59.879 the human traffickers, they're violent, they're barbaric. There's a whole 0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:03.800 town in Albania that is characterized as being a breeding 0:57:03.880 --> 0:57:07.239 ground for like the scum of the earth that would 0:57:07.280 --> 0:57:09.359 become human traffickers, that kind of thing. 0:57:09.719 --> 0:57:13.360 It is just like a like comical lack of nuance 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:19.120 to anything anything at all. Yeah, it is like deeply xenophobic, 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:21.320 where the second they meet someone who is an American, 0:57:21.880 --> 0:57:26.040 within moments of arriving, they haven't even walked in the 0:57:26.040 --> 0:57:30.080 door and they're already being targeted by Like it's just 0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:33.880 it's absurd. Even the first interaction in this movie as 0:57:33.960 --> 0:57:38.040 Leam Neeson like interacting with a I don't know what 0:57:38.320 --> 0:57:42.360 his nationality is, but it's like a very stereotyped character 0:57:42.560 --> 0:57:48.080 who's working at the karaoke machine business. 0:57:47.320 --> 0:57:49.000 The electronics store. 0:57:49.360 --> 0:57:52.120 Yeah, where where at very least there are a few 0:57:52.200 --> 0:57:54.840 lines in this movie that it doesn't make it worth 0:57:54.840 --> 0:57:57.800 the journey, but it is fun to hear Liam Neeson 0:57:57.840 --> 0:58:01.360 say the line, who is Beyonce just kidding? Just kidding 0:58:01.560 --> 0:58:03.000 because you're like two thousand. 0:58:02.680 --> 0:58:03.400 And eight, I don't know. 0:58:04.040 --> 0:58:07.240 No, she's been really famous since the nineties, so yeah, 0:58:07.480 --> 0:58:10.880 he's like, JK JK, really why put that in there? 0:58:11.000 --> 0:58:12.840 There are there are a few lines, I mean, and 0:58:12.880 --> 0:58:14.920 then at the point where it's like they're following you 0:58:15.000 --> 0:58:17.120 two around the country, the script has already given up 0:58:17.120 --> 0:58:20.400 on interacting with youth culture in any way, shape or form, 0:58:20.440 --> 0:58:23.080 because a seventeen year old girls acting ten years old 0:58:23.120 --> 0:58:25.320 and man, yet she also wants to follow you too, 0:58:25.680 --> 0:58:29.480 like nonsense. I feel like Beyonce was added by a 0:58:29.520 --> 0:58:33.360 punch up writer. I don't think that either credited writer 0:58:33.800 --> 0:58:38.760 would have known to include Beyonce as a then actually 0:58:38.880 --> 0:58:41.160 successful artist among young women. 0:58:41.960 --> 0:58:46.000 Well, also, whoever wrote that line of dialogue because they're 0:58:46.000 --> 0:58:50.000 talking about a karaoke machine and the electronic salesman is like, yeah, 0:58:50.000 --> 0:58:53.360 this is the karaoke machine that all the professionals use, 0:58:54.240 --> 0:58:56.400 examples Beyonce, and then he. 0:58:56.440 --> 0:59:00.000 Listens like to you others karaoke machine yep. 0:59:00.040 --> 0:59:04.160 Pop stars aren't using karaoke, like they just don't understand 0:59:04.240 --> 0:59:07.520 what pop music is. And I have a whole shpiel, 0:59:07.520 --> 0:59:10.040 which I'll say for later, just about the way the 0:59:10.080 --> 0:59:14.320 buddies talk about the pop star who's not Lady Raven 0:59:15.200 --> 0:59:18.959 though she should be. But anyway, Yeah, the way non 0:59:18.960 --> 0:59:22.840 white and non American characters in general are portrayed in 0:59:22.840 --> 0:59:27.560 this movie is heinous, to the point where in twenty nineteen, 0:59:28.120 --> 0:59:34.120 the Albanian Tourism Board produced an advertisement in order to 0:59:34.240 --> 0:59:39.560 kind of counter the negative perception of Albanians that this 0:59:39.680 --> 0:59:41.600 movie like directly caused. 0:59:42.120 --> 0:59:43.720 So they created this. 0:59:43.600 --> 0:59:46.600 Kind of movement. You can sign a petition. It's called 0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:51.360 be Taken by Albania where they are challenging. 0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:54.480 I would maybe change the name, but sure, I get 0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:57.560 I get that, I appreciate the message, but I. 0:59:57.480 --> 1:00:01.000 Guess they were like it's a pun. But anyway they're asking. 1:00:01.040 --> 1:00:06.440 They're inviting Liam Neeson to visit Albania and explore the 1:00:06.480 --> 1:00:11.400 beauty and the culture and the food and the tourist hotspots. 1:00:11.480 --> 1:00:14.280 There's a video that I watched that the actor who 1:00:14.280 --> 1:00:18.520 plays Marcos is in briefly at the end, Oh wow, 1:00:18.680 --> 1:00:21.960 But it's mostly like people in Albania being like, see, 1:00:22.080 --> 1:00:24.200 we're a really nice country and we have all these 1:00:24.200 --> 1:00:26.480 beautiful things and we're really nice people. 1:00:26.360 --> 1:00:29.760 Which is like absurd that they even have to do that. 1:00:30.120 --> 1:00:34.920 It reminds me of our conversation around Kazakhstun's reception of Borat, 1:00:34.960 --> 1:00:38.120 where it was like, wow, it did not irreparable, but 1:00:38.240 --> 1:00:42.080 significant harm to the global perception of the country because 1:00:42.120 --> 1:00:47.760 of this like dullbass movie that was successful, Like it's yeah, 1:00:47.800 --> 1:00:50.360 anyone who's like it's just a movie, You're like. 1:00:50.440 --> 1:00:54.320 Well, wow, why do we have so many examples of 1:00:54.600 --> 1:01:00.800 movies influencing perceptions of things on a global scale. Then 1:01:01.240 --> 1:01:03.200 if it's quote unquote just a movie. 1:01:03.440 --> 1:01:03.800 Yeah. 1:01:03.840 --> 1:01:06.720 And then again, the way the Arab characters are portrayed 1:01:06.760 --> 1:01:09.880 in this movie is the way they often are in 1:01:10.000 --> 1:01:14.440 Western media, which is being violent and hostile and corrupt 1:01:14.520 --> 1:01:20.600 and uber wealthy. They covet women who are virgins, which 1:01:20.720 --> 1:01:25.880 again is just a very incredibly reductive portrayal of Muslim 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:31.160 characters and Arab characters, and again has real world consequences 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:35.560 and contributes to like anti immigration rhetoric and policy that 1:01:35.920 --> 1:01:40.880 is still affecting so many countries around the world. 1:01:41.280 --> 1:01:43.840 The line I wanted to draw attention to to sort 1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:48.920 of illustrate what the internal politics of this movie appear 1:01:49.080 --> 1:01:53.360 to be. It's said by leam Nisid and the scene 1:01:53.400 --> 1:01:55.800 where he's like, oh, you're the guy from the phone, 1:01:55.840 --> 1:01:58.160 and you're like, first of all, you don't recognize a 1:01:58.240 --> 1:02:01.440 guy's like at International I'll call on a razor phone 1:02:01.440 --> 1:02:05.120 in two thousand and eight, be serious, But he is 1:02:05.760 --> 1:02:09.000 lecturing the group of Albanian men in a country where 1:02:09.000 --> 1:02:11.920 he does not live, but says, you come to this 1:02:12.000 --> 1:02:14.520 country and think because we are tolerant, we are weak 1:02:14.560 --> 1:02:19.160 and helpless. Your arrogance offends me, which just implies all 1:02:19.200 --> 1:02:23.400 of these really ugly narratives around immigration in general, where 1:02:23.840 --> 1:02:26.080 I think the word tolerated is doing a lot of 1:02:26.120 --> 1:02:29.840 heavy lifting there, where it's like you are being permitted 1:02:29.880 --> 1:02:33.120 to live here so long as you do A, B 1:02:33.280 --> 1:02:35.640 and C to basically, I mean, it just feels like 1:02:35.760 --> 1:02:40.280 assimbilation tactics. It feels like anyone who immigrates to a 1:02:40.280 --> 1:02:42.640 country does not actually have a right to live there. 1:02:42.680 --> 1:02:45.480 It's conditional and just I mean all of these really, 1:02:45.560 --> 1:02:49.600 I mean, this movie is a conservative movie, and that line, 1:02:49.760 --> 1:02:53.160 like in particular, which is weird because I think if 1:02:53.200 --> 1:02:56.439 we saw a comparably conservative movie today, that language would 1:02:56.480 --> 1:03:00.560 probably be much harsher. But even so, it's like you 1:03:00.600 --> 1:03:02.640 can read between the lines where it's like, this movie 1:03:02.720 --> 1:03:07.280 is clearly anti immigration and it is clearly deeply xenophobic, which, 1:03:07.560 --> 1:03:12.080 not for nothing is wild because Liam Neeson is from 1:03:12.160 --> 1:03:18.840 Northern Ireland, so but he's whatever. I mean, the same 1:03:18.880 --> 1:03:21.080 thing happens with Bondo a lot. I've been working on 1:03:21.120 --> 1:03:24.000 a story for sixteenth Minute about the super Bowl and 1:03:24.360 --> 1:03:27.320 how like you two was the super Bowl act after 1:03:27.400 --> 1:03:29.760 nine to eleven and they were wearing American flag jackets 1:03:29.760 --> 1:03:34.680 and You're like, they're Irish? What anyways? Very weird And 1:03:34.800 --> 1:03:37.320 Liam Neeson, I know we've I think we talked about 1:03:37.320 --> 1:03:40.560 this in our episode on Widows also has had his 1:03:40.680 --> 1:03:45.440 share of controversies around talking about race. So unfortunately, it 1:03:45.640 --> 1:03:47.600 is not shocking to me that he ends up in 1:03:47.640 --> 1:03:53.000 this very conservative action thriller written by sex criminal. 1:03:53.800 --> 1:03:54.120 Yeah. 1:03:54.160 --> 1:03:58.480 Also, Liam Neeson's saying that line about you know, we 1:03:58.600 --> 1:04:02.480 tolerate you being here, da da da, that's in response 1:04:02.760 --> 1:04:07.800 to the Albanian characters saying, oh, you think that just 1:04:07.800 --> 1:04:11.920 because we're immigrants, you can exploit us and take advantage 1:04:11.920 --> 1:04:14.720 of us and all this stuff, which fair point that 1:04:14.880 --> 1:04:19.040 does often happen to immigrants, but it's undermined by the 1:04:19.080 --> 1:04:26.120 fact that what they're doing is illegal trafficking. It's like, well, point, 1:04:26.520 --> 1:04:29.760 not well taken because of what. But it's of course 1:04:29.840 --> 1:04:36.160 like these filmmakers writing these Eastern European characters in this way, 1:04:36.320 --> 1:04:38.120 and it's just such a mind fuck. 1:04:38.680 --> 1:04:40.960 It's hard to talk about this movie because there are 1:04:41.120 --> 1:04:46.200 so many major consequential issues being conflated with each other 1:04:47.160 --> 1:04:52.120 that it just feels like an intentional way of like, well, 1:04:52.480 --> 1:04:54.800 the only immigrant characters in this movie are going to 1:04:54.840 --> 1:04:57.600 see are going to be engaged in the most horrific 1:04:57.640 --> 1:04:59.640 crime you can think of, So how can you have 1:04:59.680 --> 1:05:02.840 a common versation around immigration when that is the puzzle 1:05:02.880 --> 1:05:05.200 box that a sex criminal has put in front of you? 1:05:05.480 --> 1:05:07.920 And you're like, well, I guess I don't know. I 1:05:07.960 --> 1:05:09.880 guess I don't know the answer to that question, and 1:05:10.080 --> 1:05:17.560 I resent being asked. Right, Yeah, it's all horseshit, LIKEE 1:05:18.080 --> 1:05:20.920 is horseshit is. The other co writer of this movie 1:05:21.280 --> 1:05:25.480 co wrote movies in the Karate Kid franchise and The 1:05:25.640 --> 1:05:29.960 Fifth Element, and now owns a vineyard in Sonoma, and 1:05:29.960 --> 1:05:33.640 that is all I know about him. His name is 1:05:33.720 --> 1:05:37.320 Robert Mark came in. Anyways, both men who wrote this 1:05:37.400 --> 1:05:41.040 movie were pushing fifty, if not over fifty when writing 1:05:41.080 --> 1:05:43.680 this movie about teenage girls. Which is why they're following 1:05:43.800 --> 1:05:45.920 you two around Western Europe. 1:05:46.280 --> 1:05:49.760 Yeah, which is why she squeals when she's given a horse, 1:05:49.840 --> 1:05:53.280 and she loves milkshakes with extra cherries. Not to say 1:05:53.320 --> 1:05:57.160 that seventeen year olds can't love horses and can't love milkshakes, 1:05:57.160 --> 1:06:00.560 but the way she's framed in this movie feels like 1:06:01.000 --> 1:06:07.360 writers just like infantalizing this girl slash, having no idea 1:06:07.400 --> 1:06:09.680 how a seventeen year old girl actually behaves. 1:06:09.760 --> 1:06:12.960 Well's skin just talking about Kim and Lenore, because it's like, yeah, 1:06:13.000 --> 1:06:17.120 the way that Kim has introduced clearly she's very wealthy. 1:06:18.360 --> 1:06:21.720 We have Nisson's character is not as wealthy. He lives 1:06:21.720 --> 1:06:23.760 in an apartment. We don't really know what his financial 1:06:23.800 --> 1:06:26.760 status is. But she, you know, Leonore has remarried a 1:06:26.920 --> 1:06:30.440 very very rich man and Kim lives with them. But 1:06:30.520 --> 1:06:35.000 it's made a point to make Lenore look rude, to say, like, 1:06:35.720 --> 1:06:37.760 why did you get her a karaoke machine? She was 1:06:37.800 --> 1:06:40.600 really into that when she was twelve, as if to say, 1:06:40.760 --> 1:06:44.040 you don't know your daughter very well because you were 1:06:44.080 --> 1:06:46.600 not around for all of her formative years, which becomes 1:06:46.640 --> 1:06:49.760 clearer as the movie goes on, not that it really 1:06:49.760 --> 1:06:53.120 goes anywhere, but it has made clearer that, like Kim 1:06:53.160 --> 1:06:55.880 agrees with this, Kim felt very estrange from her father 1:06:56.040 --> 1:06:59.480 while growing up. But then to say for leonor to 1:06:59.520 --> 1:07:01.920 say that and then have her be like what she 1:07:02.080 --> 1:07:05.959 really wants is a pony, You're like, well, is she an. 1:07:05.920 --> 1:07:06.720 Adult or not? 1:07:07.200 --> 1:07:11.400 Like especially because the movie opens with like video camera 1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:15.680 footage of Kim's like fifth birthday where she's given a 1:07:15.760 --> 1:07:18.840 toy horse and she's like, tie, he look at my. 1:07:18.800 --> 1:07:22.040 Little horse, Like okay, so you're all infantilizing her and 1:07:22.120 --> 1:07:25.560 she's she appears to love it, like poor Kim like 1:07:25.600 --> 1:07:28.120 that or I mean the actor that plays Kim, because 1:07:28.120 --> 1:07:31.880 it's just like so divorced from an existing like she's 1:07:32.040 --> 1:07:36.400 very much like a daddy's girl character. I have, yeah, 1:07:36.440 --> 1:07:39.880 some just some notes again in the like conflating things 1:07:40.000 --> 1:07:44.040 and airtight logic that this movie has a vested interest 1:07:44.240 --> 1:07:49.040 in creating. Is Yeah, the relationship between fathers and das 1:07:49.240 --> 1:07:53.520 and like the like overprotective father trope, which we see 1:07:53.560 --> 1:07:57.080 in movies constantly. Depending on who the movie is centering, 1:07:57.240 --> 1:08:02.320 it can be framed as like a force of oppression, 1:08:02.840 --> 1:08:05.960 and then in other movies it's made to seem very reasonable. 1:08:06.040 --> 1:08:08.800 This movie, it is made to seem almost as reasonable 1:08:08.840 --> 1:08:12.160 as I've ever seen it, to the point of absurdity 1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:15.520 of like and connects to like if you want to 1:08:15.560 --> 1:08:18.719 go back hundreds of years, connects to you know, how 1:08:19.080 --> 1:08:21.720 fathers are trained to see their daughters as their property 1:08:21.840 --> 1:08:25.800 and as a bartering tool. And you know, I don't 1:08:25.800 --> 1:08:28.920 think that they're thinking that hard about it. But there 1:08:29.000 --> 1:08:32.120 is a clear reason why this trope exists. It is 1:08:32.200 --> 1:08:34.599 rooted in something real. But this movie just doesn't want 1:08:34.600 --> 1:08:38.400 to talk about anything. But yeah, it's like he you know, 1:08:38.920 --> 1:08:42.719 she is his property. It's tricky because in some ways 1:08:42.720 --> 1:08:47.439 it's like, Okay, he wants to right some wrongs. He's retired, 1:08:47.479 --> 1:08:50.840 he wants to have some sort of connection with his daughter. 1:08:50.880 --> 1:08:54.479 He's relocated to do it. I don't even object to 1:08:54.560 --> 1:08:57.080 that as long as Kim feels okay about it, which 1:08:57.080 --> 1:09:01.240 she appears to, and that they're trying to make it work. 1:09:01.640 --> 1:09:08.000 But like again, it's just his overprotectiveness, which is made 1:09:08.040 --> 1:09:12.320 to seem so wildly correct, and like the idea, like 1:09:12.400 --> 1:09:16.599 any of Lenore's boundaries are made to seem cruel or 1:09:16.680 --> 1:09:19.800 ridiculous as it folds out. Well, the first time we 1:09:19.800 --> 1:09:22.200 meet Lenora, she's setting a boundary with him, saying like, hey, 1:09:22.240 --> 1:09:24.519 this is we agreed that this was going to be 1:09:25.160 --> 1:09:28.360 the way this was gonna go. And he's like, oh, well, 1:09:28.479 --> 1:09:30.840 I don't care. And then Kim shows up and she's like, oh, 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:34.640 I don't care either, and then Lenor looks mean for 1:09:34.760 --> 1:09:37.560 having set the boundary. And then the next time we 1:09:37.680 --> 1:09:42.160 see her, she is encouraging Liam Neeson to let Kim 1:09:42.280 --> 1:09:44.479 go on this trip to Paris and like, give her 1:09:44.520 --> 1:09:46.800 a little bit of freedom. She's you know, she's a teenager. 1:09:46.880 --> 1:09:49.120 She's going to push you away if she feels hyper 1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:54.880 surveilled by you, and he says okay. And the one 1:09:54.960 --> 1:09:58.840 time he gives in to something she recommends, she who 1:09:58.960 --> 1:10:03.080 it appears, has in entirely raised her daughter, she is 1:10:03.200 --> 1:10:07.280 dead wrong and is not able to participate in the movie. Further, 1:10:07.840 --> 1:10:08.679 she doesn't I don't. 1:10:08.520 --> 1:10:11.480 Think she she doesn't have a particular set of skills 1:10:11.640 --> 1:10:13.240 Jamie has she to do. 1:10:14.760 --> 1:10:16.920 Her skills are wife, but we also don't know that 1:10:17.160 --> 1:10:19.720 did she ever have a career, We don't know. I mean, 1:10:19.760 --> 1:10:22.360 I guess the most I can say for that is 1:10:22.360 --> 1:10:25.320 that at least they bothered to explain why the marriage 1:10:25.360 --> 1:10:28.240 fell apart and why his relationship to them is so tenuous. 1:10:29.200 --> 1:10:32.519 But even so, it is just made to seem like 1:10:33.800 --> 1:10:37.760 there's no point where leam Neisum is not correct, and 1:10:37.800 --> 1:10:43.400 that the world revolves around his feelings about people and 1:10:43.479 --> 1:10:47.040 boundaries and relationships to be correct, like the world will 1:10:47.080 --> 1:10:51.920 shift on its access to meet his logic, and that's 1:10:51.960 --> 1:10:54.320 at the expense of the two women. 1:10:54.080 --> 1:10:54.719 In the story. 1:10:55.479 --> 1:10:58.280 Yeah, and this reminds me of a trope that we 1:10:58.400 --> 1:11:02.080 talk about from time to time, where in any story 1:11:02.160 --> 1:11:05.479 where there's a woman who ends up as a damsel 1:11:05.520 --> 1:11:11.680 in distress and the man protagonist saves her, by the 1:11:11.720 --> 1:11:17.080 movie's logic, that entitles him to that woman because he's 1:11:17.120 --> 1:11:21.080 saved her, this is the prize he gets in return 1:11:21.439 --> 1:11:24.880 for saving her, and she's obligated to be with him 1:11:24.880 --> 1:11:27.800 and to kiss him because he saved her. I feel 1:11:27.840 --> 1:11:32.640 like a similar logic applies here, where because he's saved. 1:11:32.320 --> 1:11:33.880 His daughter, his daughter. 1:11:34.640 --> 1:11:38.360 He has redeemed himself as a father, and now he's 1:11:38.520 --> 1:11:42.200 gonna be allowed to be an active participant in her 1:11:42.360 --> 1:11:47.400 life and he's entitled to her time and all that 1:11:47.439 --> 1:11:50.840 kind of stuff. And that is not necessarily true. Just 1:11:50.880 --> 1:11:55.000 because a person does one good thing does not redeem 1:11:55.120 --> 1:11:59.040 them for a lifetime of wickedness. And yes, that is 1:11:59.080 --> 1:12:01.439 a quote from the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. 1:12:01.600 --> 1:12:07.479 But I wow, I'm problematic king. Yeah, no, it's true. 1:12:07.520 --> 1:12:10.479 And it again, it's like the way that these issues 1:12:10.479 --> 1:12:14.559 and dynamics are proposed makes it hard to talk about 1:12:14.600 --> 1:12:17.479 in an analytical way because you know, like if I'm 1:12:17.520 --> 1:12:22.600 putting myself in a parent character's head, like both of 1:12:22.920 --> 1:12:26.280 the parents to me are acting weird, where it's like 1:12:26.760 --> 1:12:32.320 Lenore has no concerns about this whatsoever. That also feels weird. 1:12:32.439 --> 1:12:35.040 Like I of course, like if my kid was like 1:12:35.120 --> 1:12:37.760 I want to go to Europe alone with people you 1:12:37.840 --> 1:12:41.120 basically don't know, I would I would be worried. I 1:12:41.120 --> 1:12:45.200 don't think it's unreasonable to express concern and express like, Okay, 1:12:45.560 --> 1:12:47.920 here is where you know, like, here is how we're 1:12:47.920 --> 1:12:49.759 going to approach safety. Here's how we're going to approach 1:12:49.760 --> 1:12:52.320 communication and blah blah blah, like in a way that 1:12:52.680 --> 1:12:56.280 feels pretty healthy, but like neither of them are proposing that. 1:12:56.520 --> 1:13:00.639 Yeah, they're both on opposite ends of the spectrum, like, well, 1:13:00.760 --> 1:13:04.760 she's too aloof and he's too overprotective. 1:13:05.160 --> 1:13:09.479 Yeah. So if that's the case, whose logic does the 1:13:09.560 --> 1:13:13.840 story favor and it's leam Neeson, it makes Leonora look 1:13:13.880 --> 1:13:19.599 negligent and foolish for feeling any other way. This is 1:13:19.920 --> 1:13:23.200 why I find action movies like kind of eye rolly 1:13:23.280 --> 1:13:26.160 in general, where it's just like it's just creating, you know, 1:13:26.240 --> 1:13:28.840 a structure in which one guy is the coolest guy 1:13:28.920 --> 1:13:31.320 on the planet, and so of course it's not gonna 1:13:31.360 --> 1:13:34.920 make any sense. It sounds like the stepdad is at 1:13:35.000 --> 1:13:36.760 least you know, I don't know what he's like as 1:13:36.800 --> 1:13:38.519 a father, but he's certainly you know, he's like an 1:13:38.520 --> 1:13:42.880 oil he deals with shell. I was like, I here's 1:13:42.880 --> 1:13:46.679 something where in my brain wasn't working where leam Neeson 1:13:46.760 --> 1:13:50.160 was talking so fast, like, well, you have a bunch 1:13:50.200 --> 1:13:53.160 of deals with shell corporations, as like shell corporations or 1:13:53.320 --> 1:13:54.480 the shell corporation. 1:13:54.800 --> 1:13:56.760 Good question, what is his job? 1:13:56.840 --> 1:13:59.759 What is he doing? It doesn't sound good. It definitely 1:13:59.800 --> 1:14:01.960 does sound good. You don't get a house like that 1:14:02.080 --> 1:14:07.400 doing good things generally, but like certainly not. But it 1:14:07.880 --> 1:14:10.760 feels like that character is there and behaving like that, 1:14:11.200 --> 1:14:14.040 just again in service of making leam Neeson the cooler 1:14:14.080 --> 1:14:18.800 of like this, like you know, suit fucking sucks and 1:14:18.880 --> 1:14:21.320 like he doesn't know what he's talking about, and she 1:14:21.360 --> 1:14:24.240 should have stayed with me. I'm awesome even though I 1:14:24.280 --> 1:14:26.599 was negligent and a horrible husband and a horrible father, 1:14:26.920 --> 1:14:31.559 which actually is at least acknowledged by the story. And 1:14:31.600 --> 1:14:36.320 then we have how Jean Claude's what his wife is treated, 1:14:36.360 --> 1:14:39.240 which is goodness, so absurd. 1:14:40.720 --> 1:14:45.040 Leem Neeson shoots her for no reason other than to 1:14:46.040 --> 1:14:46.879 send the message. 1:14:46.960 --> 1:14:50.840 Also, her job is dinner. Yes, her job is dinner. 1:14:50.920 --> 1:14:53.719 She lets a strange like you would think someone who 1:14:53.840 --> 1:14:58.200 is his wife of someone this high profile would know 1:14:58.360 --> 1:15:01.679 maybe to not let a random stranger into the house, 1:15:01.720 --> 1:15:03.960 but that is like literally not the case. 1:15:04.040 --> 1:15:07.439 Here knows him because they go way back, so that 1:15:07.520 --> 1:15:09.880 I can kind of buy it like that he's a 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:12.679 family friend. It seems like they already know each other, 1:15:13.920 --> 1:15:18.200 but that doesn't excuse any of the other ways she's portrayed, 1:15:18.200 --> 1:15:22.240 which is like, yeah, she's like here, have dinner, and 1:15:22.320 --> 1:15:27.760 then again he shoots her. She is not involved at 1:15:27.800 --> 1:15:32.000 all in this situation, but he needs to send a 1:15:32.000 --> 1:15:35.479 message to his new enemy, Jean Claude, and he does 1:15:35.560 --> 1:15:38.439 that by shooting her in the arm, threatening to shoot 1:15:38.479 --> 1:15:40.439 her in the ess wounds. 1:15:40.800 --> 1:15:45.360 You're like, oh, oh shot her king. 1:15:45.640 --> 1:15:48.599 Then after he gets what he wants from Jean Claude, 1:15:48.600 --> 1:15:51.600 which is like the information on that Patrice guy. The 1:15:51.640 --> 1:15:54.480 scene ends with Brian saying, please. 1:15:54.240 --> 1:15:55.880 Apologize to your wife for me. 1:15:56.640 --> 1:16:00.000 Then the exits and then we never know what happened 1:16:00.080 --> 1:16:03.200 beens to the wife Isabelle. 1:16:02.800 --> 1:16:07.080 And also Jean Claude treats his wife like garbage, you know, 1:16:07.280 --> 1:16:09.960 like and Jean Claude also a bad guy. It's not like, 1:16:10.080 --> 1:16:12.920 you know, there's he's being presented as like the peak 1:16:13.000 --> 1:16:17.120 of morality. That's leam Neeson. And he shoots her, but 1:16:17.560 --> 1:16:20.320 like you know, he tells, you know, his wife, he 1:16:20.640 --> 1:16:22.559 tells her to shut up. He's like, you know, he's 1:16:22.560 --> 1:16:25.519 being very rude to her when she understandably has no 1:16:25.640 --> 1:16:28.800 fucking clue what they're talking about, and he's like shut off. 1:16:28.840 --> 1:16:31.439 And then she shot and you're like, Wow, I don't 1:16:31.439 --> 1:16:34.360 know what I expected from a Luke Basard screenplay, but 1:16:34.800 --> 1:16:38.680 here I am watching it. It's just like it's like comical, 1:16:38.840 --> 1:16:43.040 it's ridiculous. And also, yeah, this movie was produced by 1:16:43.160 --> 1:16:48.600 Luke Basson. The director Pierre Morrell was Bison's go to cinematographer. 1:16:49.600 --> 1:16:55.280 So this is very much the predatory racist boys Club movie. 1:16:55.560 --> 1:16:57.439 And it made a quarter of a billion dollars. It 1:16:57.520 --> 1:17:00.840 made almost it made its budget back almost times. It 1:17:00.920 --> 1:17:05.280 was wildly successful. Again, had these two shitty sequels, and 1:17:05.320 --> 1:17:07.920 I guess also a TV show. 1:17:08.240 --> 1:17:12.720 Yeah, which I missed. It's a not Liam Neeson. It's 1:17:12.760 --> 1:17:15.479 the same character but played by a different actor. It's 1:17:15.560 --> 1:17:17.240 kind of like a re envisioning. 1:17:16.920 --> 1:17:20.760 Guy named Clive stand In. Wow, what a wild last 1:17:20.800 --> 1:17:23.240 name for an actor. Stand In sort of feels like 1:17:23.280 --> 1:17:30.559 a death sentence. Anyways, Yeah, this movie has I mean 1:17:30.600 --> 1:17:34.200 and speaking to like the campaign run in Albania to 1:17:34.439 --> 1:17:37.840 reverse the misinformation of this movie. I feel like, I mean, 1:17:37.920 --> 1:17:39.599 it's weird because I feel like a lot of times 1:17:39.600 --> 1:17:42.920 on this show we cover like, well, it's unclear what 1:17:43.160 --> 1:17:45.800 if any net harm resulted from this. It's rare to 1:17:45.840 --> 1:17:49.679 talk about a movie where there is demonstrable net harm 1:17:49.800 --> 1:17:52.640 done by the movie's success, but this is one of 1:17:52.680 --> 1:17:56.479 those movies. Absolutely no question in my mind, this movie 1:17:56.520 --> 1:18:02.879 did bad things for people's understanding of extremely important issues, 1:18:03.160 --> 1:18:06.479 for sure, and written by again like truly the last 1:18:06.560 --> 1:18:11.760 person you want weighing in on issues around human trafficking, 1:18:12.400 --> 1:18:14.920 the last person you want, who's creative work you want 1:18:15.000 --> 1:18:18.439 to see? Really period, end of sentence. And granted, at 1:18:18.439 --> 1:18:20.519 this time, this you know, in two thousand and eight, 1:18:20.800 --> 1:18:23.519 this conversation around Luke Pasan was not happening yet. That 1:18:23.520 --> 1:18:27.120 wouldn't happen for almost ten years afterwards. But looking back 1:18:27.160 --> 1:18:27.800 on it now, but. 1:18:27.760 --> 1:18:30.759 All you had to do was watch Leon the Professional and. 1:18:31.640 --> 1:18:34.360 Feeling I mean what, but a lot of people like 1:18:34.400 --> 1:18:37.559 it took a long time for the conversation around that 1:18:37.600 --> 1:18:39.120 movie to come all the way around. It took a 1:18:39.160 --> 1:18:41.800 really really long time. I mean not that not to 1:18:41.960 --> 1:18:44.400 discount anyone who was having the conversation when it started, 1:18:44.439 --> 1:18:47.280 but just in the like majority public sense, that was 1:18:47.320 --> 1:18:50.840 a beloved movie when it came out. Is I just yeah, 1:18:50.960 --> 1:18:55.080 lukeas On, I really wish him the worst. 1:18:55.760 --> 1:18:58.120 Yeah, the same, may he rot in hell? 1:18:58.680 --> 1:18:58.960 Yeah? 1:19:00.120 --> 1:19:01.360 The last thing I have. 1:19:01.479 --> 1:19:07.040 Is the way the buddies talk about the pop star Shira, 1:19:08.000 --> 1:19:12.040 where the guy his name is Sam I think, calls 1:19:12.040 --> 1:19:14.800 her a pop diva and then he's like, I don't 1:19:14.840 --> 1:19:17.080 know if you'd call her a singer, more like a 1:19:17.120 --> 1:19:21.639 cash cow. And it's just like demonstrating the way that 1:19:21.880 --> 1:19:27.080 men often are disparaging about performers or media that is 1:19:27.120 --> 1:19:29.599 targeted toward women because they. 1:19:29.640 --> 1:19:33.240 Was pulled from personal conversations that the people who make 1:19:33.280 --> 1:19:36.280 this movie have probably right exactly. 1:19:36.479 --> 1:19:40.800 So it's just like, oh, these men hate art buy 1:19:41.040 --> 1:19:43.559 and for women because they think, oh, if it's not 1:19:43.680 --> 1:19:45.400 for me, then it must be bad. 1:19:45.840 --> 1:19:48.680 Yeah. And also in that scene the one other I 1:19:48.760 --> 1:19:50.800 forgot to say this earlier, but the way that his 1:19:51.400 --> 1:19:53.720 friends it's just something that we talk about on the 1:19:53.840 --> 1:19:56.920 show all the time. But how the fact that Liam 1:19:57.000 --> 1:20:00.000 Neeson has taken it upon himself to be an actor 1:20:00.160 --> 1:20:05.519 presence in his daughter's life on her seventeenth birthday is 1:20:05.520 --> 1:20:08.960 presented as like this heroic feat and just how low 1:20:09.000 --> 1:20:13.639 the bar is for father participation in a child's life. 1:20:13.680 --> 1:20:16.600 And they're like they literally like has she thanked you? 1:20:16.720 --> 1:20:19.920 You're like like it really seems like he sees her 1:20:19.960 --> 1:20:22.599 one day a year, like why would she think him? 1:20:23.280 --> 1:20:25.800 But also the way she's written, she might, you know, 1:20:25.880 --> 1:20:28.799 like she's like daddy, Yeah, because she's. 1:20:28.840 --> 1:20:30.800 My milkshake and my horses. 1:20:31.040 --> 1:20:35.360 Where's my milk? And my horsey? Classic seventeen year old behavior, 1:20:36.320 --> 1:20:41.519 Like this movie can it can go? It can go? 1:20:41.760 --> 1:20:44.599 Like I again, love the movies you love, but this 1:20:44.680 --> 1:20:49.759 movie I feel like is best enjoyed ironically, and it did. 1:20:49.960 --> 1:20:50.360 It did. 1:20:50.560 --> 1:20:53.040 Just I will not be revisiting it after this. I 1:20:53.120 --> 1:20:56.000 just I don't know rare that my fifteen year old 1:20:56.080 --> 1:20:59.719 self was right, but she was. She was really cooking 1:20:59.800 --> 1:21:05.040 on and having no further interest in this movie, franchise, genre, etc. 1:21:05.720 --> 1:21:07.440 I love that for young Jamie. 1:21:07.680 --> 1:21:09.840 Yeah, it doesn't pass the Bechel desk. I don't care 1:21:09.840 --> 1:21:10.839 if it does. It doesn't. 1:21:10.920 --> 1:21:11.360 It doesn't. 1:21:11.400 --> 1:21:14.840 It spiritually doesn't. And this movie on our nipple scale, 1:21:14.960 --> 1:21:18.759 where we rate zero to five nipples based on examining 1:21:18.800 --> 1:21:21.720 the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I give it 1:21:22.080 --> 1:21:22.959 zero nipples. 1:21:23.320 --> 1:21:25.439 I give it zero. I have nothing to give. 1:21:25.880 --> 1:21:30.559 Yeah, we haven't talked about the concept of fridging in 1:21:30.600 --> 1:21:33.519 a while, or at least not defining it by that. 1:21:33.600 --> 1:21:35.880 But like I just also want to point out, like 1:21:36.040 --> 1:21:41.320 this is fridging the movie for any listeners who are 1:21:41.360 --> 1:21:46.920 not familiar, we're talking about a common trope in the 1:21:46.960 --> 1:21:49.600 action genre, but it also you can see it in 1:21:49.680 --> 1:21:53.719 any genre. But it was a term coined by comic 1:21:53.760 --> 1:21:57.280 writer Gail Simone in nineteen ninety nine. It describes a 1:21:57.479 --> 1:22:02.200 trend in storytelling where characters who are women will face 1:22:02.439 --> 1:22:08.280 disproportionate harm. They'll be killed, maime, dessaulted, abducted, anything like that, 1:22:08.439 --> 1:22:13.040 in order to serve as plot devices to motivate the 1:22:13.200 --> 1:22:17.080 men in the story. Usually it's a smaller plot point 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:20.439 of a larger story, but like in the Taken movies, 1:22:21.200 --> 1:22:24.599 it's the whole story fridging the movie, the whole plot 1:22:24.760 --> 1:22:25.400 hinges on. 1:22:25.720 --> 1:22:28.920 There's no movie if it doesn't. Yeah, yeah, there's no 1:22:29.240 --> 1:22:33.880 active person in this movie besides sex traffickers and Liam Neeson. 1:22:33.960 --> 1:22:37.280 Outside of that, there's not even a you know, I 1:22:37.280 --> 1:22:41.679 think what is more common now in sexist movies where 1:22:41.720 --> 1:22:46.000 it's like the women will maybe kick once or twice. No, 1:22:46.360 --> 1:22:50.360 we're not even rising to that. There is nothing. It's 1:22:50.439 --> 1:22:54.519 just shaking, sobbing, crying, and all the information that's been 1:22:54.560 --> 1:22:58.400 conveyed is not thought about. I mean, this movie is 1:22:58.479 --> 1:23:01.719 just like saying it's it's weird. This movie isn't saying nothing. 1:23:01.880 --> 1:23:04.240 It is just saying a lot of wrong things in 1:23:04.240 --> 1:23:06.559 a way that sticks with you harder than you might expect, 1:23:06.640 --> 1:23:11.400 because there are so few movies, especially like widely released movies, 1:23:11.400 --> 1:23:15.400 that address issues like this, and so the ones that do, 1:23:15.680 --> 1:23:19.439 if they get it wrong, that makes a big difference exactly, 1:23:19.479 --> 1:23:22.559 And the legacy of this movie says that. So, yeah, 1:23:22.720 --> 1:23:30.639 zero nipples, it sucks. You know the monologue, sure, sure, sure, 1:23:30.720 --> 1:23:33.680 but watch it on YouTube and fuck the rest. 1:23:33.960 --> 1:23:37.200 And it's a monologue that could be said by many 1:23:37.320 --> 1:23:40.559 characters in many different movies, so it's not even though 1:23:40.560 --> 1:23:42.080 it's specific to him. 1:23:42.600 --> 1:23:45.679 I think that the nice thing is most people who 1:23:45.720 --> 1:23:48.680 know that monologue forget the plot of Taken, and that 1:23:48.840 --> 1:23:53.920 is the best case scenario there. So with that, we're 1:23:53.920 --> 1:23:56.720 back at lax. I guess we don't care that our 1:23:56.800 --> 1:23:59.759 friend died and let's just go home. 1:24:00.160 --> 1:24:02.800 Yeah, I just I'm ready for my singing lessons. 1:24:02.880 --> 1:24:08.040 By this diva, Kim is also implied to be trauma free. 1:24:08.160 --> 1:24:13.120 The second shot, You're just like, okay, anyways, we can't 1:24:13.120 --> 1:24:15.400 we can't talk about this movie a second longer. Thank 1:24:15.439 --> 1:24:19.559 you for listening to our back to School episode which 1:24:19.640 --> 1:24:23.080 was taken wow. Thank you again for listening. If you 1:24:23.320 --> 1:24:27.479 enjoyed this episode, you can follow us online follow us 1:24:27.520 --> 1:24:30.840 or mainly on Instagram at Bechdelcast. We're still on Twitter occasionally, 1:24:31.320 --> 1:24:34.679 and if you want more hashtag content with just Caitlin 1:24:34.760 --> 1:24:39.400 and myself, you can go to our Patreon aka Matreon, 1:24:39.479 --> 1:24:43.280 where for five dollars a month we cover two bonus episodes. 1:24:43.320 --> 1:24:45.360 You also get access to our over one hundred and 1:24:45.360 --> 1:24:49.280 fifty episodes of back catalog. We've been doing the Matreon 1:24:49.360 --> 1:24:53.360 forever and every month we choose a special silly theme 1:24:53.400 --> 1:24:56.880 and cover some of your popular requests. This month it 1:24:57.000 --> 1:25:02.799 is John Hughes Bumber, and we're covering John Hughes movies 1:25:02.840 --> 1:25:04.200 that we get a lot of requests for that we 1:25:04.200 --> 1:25:07.200 haven't covered yet, so head on over there. 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