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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People who did cool stuff,

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Speaker 2: your weekly reminder that when there's bad things, there's good things,

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Speaker 2: like the rainbow after the storm, only in this case,

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Speaker 2: it's more like the rainbow before the storm that's usually

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Speaker 2: destroyed by the storm, like in this week's episode where

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Speaker 2: everything is going to end terribly. But you all kind

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Speaker 2: of knew that.

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Speaker 1: Great, you couldn't have lied just like once.

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Speaker 2: Okay, sorry, I could be the birds before the storm,

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Speaker 2: how about that?

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Speaker 3: Huh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the name of my website that's broken

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Speaker 2: because it got hacked a while ago and I haven't

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Speaker 2: fixed it yet.

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Speaker 3: Anyway.

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Speaker 2: Our guest today is Mia Himya.

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Speaker 1: Hello.

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Speaker 3: You know I was thinking about because I sort of

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Speaker 3: know how this story ends, and I think the very

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Speaker 3: very long range ending of this story is that the

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Speaker 3: original President Bush throws up on the Prime Minister of

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Speaker 3: Japan and that's the revenge that we get for this. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So I think you're going to know more about parts

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Speaker 3: of this than me, and I'm very very excited for that.

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Speaker 2: As you might have guessed, Mia already knows the subject

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Speaker 2: and that's a deviation from tradition, but we thought it

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Speaker 2: was best and by that I mean I needed to

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Speaker 2: nerd out while I was researching this because it took

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Speaker 2: me so long to research this. I spent so much

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Speaker 2: time researching this, and I needed to nerd out at

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Speaker 2: least a little bit. The other voice you're hearing is Sophie,

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Speaker 2: our producer, Hi, Sophie.

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Speaker 1: Hi, mac Pie Himya.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 2: For those who don't know Mia Wong's work, Mia is

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Speaker 2: one of the hosts of It Could Happen Here, and

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Speaker 2: you can listen to her talk about things on that

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Speaker 2: daily podcast. And oh, I almost forgot. Our audio engineers

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Speaker 2: Rory Hi, Rory, Hi, Ri Hi Rory, and our theme

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Speaker 2: music was written for us by n Woman. This week

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Speaker 2: and next is a four parter. We're going to be

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Speaker 2: diving into a subject I've wanted to know more about

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Speaker 2: four years. This is one of the main things that

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Speaker 2: I was like, one day I'm going to cover on

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Speaker 2: this show. Verry first started Korean anarchism, specifically Korean anarchism

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Speaker 2: before World War two, so Korean anarchism while Korea was

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Speaker 2: a Japanese colony, and specifically me, I'm gonna present this

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Speaker 2: as if you've no idea what I'm talking about, but

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Speaker 2: you know more about what I'm talking about than almost

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Speaker 2: anyone in North America.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure I go that far, but it's definitely

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Speaker 3: above average for anarchists. I guess.

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Speaker 2: There's this rumor that floats around that is trueish, and

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Speaker 2: I'm curious where you land on it being true as

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Speaker 2: is presented when people list off the examples of anarchist

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Speaker 2: societies that got off the ground in the twentieth century,

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Speaker 2: they talk about two of the ones that we've covered

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Speaker 2: on this podcast. They talk about Eastern Spain from nineteen

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Speaker 2: thirty six to nineteen thirty nine or so during the

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Speaker 2: Spanish Civil War, And they talk about a good chunk

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Speaker 2: of Ukraine from nineteen seventeen to nineteen twenty one, the

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Speaker 2: sort of Makno controlled area of Ukraine during the Russian

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Speaker 2: Civil War, sometimes almost in whispers, not because they're like

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Speaker 2: afraid they're going to get in trouble for saying it,

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Speaker 2: but because they're not sure if they're right about what

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Speaker 2: they're talking about. People talk about the Korean People's Association

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Speaker 2: of Manchuria, which ran from nineteen twenty nine to nineteen

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Speaker 2: thirty one.

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Speaker 3: And I've known the.

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Speaker 2: Cliff notes version of this story for a very long

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Speaker 2: time now, and I've always wanted to know more. This

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Speaker 2: is the I wasn't just like I need to do

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Speaker 2: Korean anarchism, although that was true, but it was specifically

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Speaker 2: I need to do the Korean People's Association of Manchuria.

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Speaker 2: Do you hear people talking about this much? I know

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Speaker 2: this isn't like what people normally talk about at parties,

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Speaker 2: except when they want.

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Speaker 3: Everyone else to leave them alone. Yeah, I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think it kind of in the last I don't know,

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Speaker 3: half a decade, kind of got added to the canon

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Speaker 3: of like the Big the Big three anarchist revolutions. Although

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Speaker 3: it's one of these weird things where the place it

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Speaker 3: pops up the most is you'll get a few paragraphs,

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Speaker 3: maybe a couple of pages about it in a book

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Speaker 3: that's about like here anarchist movements in every country, and

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Speaker 3: it gets it usually has like a similar length of

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Speaker 3: material to like, I don't know, like Chile or something,

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Speaker 3: or Brazil or like write sometimes Bolivia. If you're dealing

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Speaker 3: with a really in depth one, it doesn't. It very

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Speaker 3: rarely gets really really long and systemic treatments. I think

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Speaker 3: because and I think, yeah, you've run into this. The

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Speaker 3: sourcing on it is so hard, yes, because I mean,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna get into this, but like it's it's you're

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Speaker 3: dealing with sources that would have to be in three

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Speaker 3: languages because I'm technically multiple Chinese, multiple Chinese dialects, Japanese

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Speaker 3: and Korean in sort of like and English so I

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Speaker 3: can read it. Yeah, yeah, that has to be found.

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Speaker 3: You have to get this into English. And it's in

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Speaker 3: this sort of like shatter point of all of these

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Speaker 3: different sort of empires, and it's and the main book

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Speaker 3: on it is really unreadable. I the first time I

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Speaker 3: ran into this was so, this is this is this

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Speaker 3: is my mea origin theory, origin of story. So like

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Speaker 3: I had like kind of been doing anarchisty stuff before

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, but in twenty seventeen, I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: things are really bad. I'm going to go sit down

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Speaker 3: and read a bunch of theory. Yeah, and I was

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Speaker 3: in college. I love that for you. That's not the

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Speaker 3: way my brain works, but I love that for you. No.

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Speaker 3: I so like, I like checked out a bunch of

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Speaker 3: books and anarchism like my So this is the University

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Speaker 3: of Chicago Library. They apparently have an autographed copy of

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Speaker 3: krop Hopkin's Conquest of Bread. Holy She was like yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was like wow. But they had a bunch of

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Speaker 3: books and I picked out the ones. That I remember

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Speaker 3: was that I don't think I checked out that one

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Speaker 3: because I was like, this is I should not be

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Speaker 3: taking this out of the stacks, like this is they

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Speaker 3: should just stay here. But uh, yeah, I picked it

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Speaker 3: was it was a book on It was like one

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Speaker 3: of the books I'm assuming it's one of the sources

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Speaker 3: for this. It was like one of the books on

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Speaker 3: Korean anarchism, and then how to Shoozo and Purre Anarchism

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Speaker 3: into Ward Japan, which is much more readable and much

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Speaker 3: more fun. And that's the one that like took me.

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Speaker 3: But the Korean anarchism what I was like, Oh no,

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Speaker 3: this is so.

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Speaker 2: Impenetrable, we're actually gonna I actually added because of exactly

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Speaker 2: what you're talking about. I really like this way of

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Speaker 2: phrasing it, that it's in the shatter zone. Because of

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Speaker 2: how complicated the historiography of this is, I added a

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Speaker 2: little histiography section. Even though I don't know how to

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Speaker 2: pronounce that word. I still added the section. And that

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Speaker 2: didn't occur to me until just now that I don't

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Speaker 2: know how to produce it. So for people who are

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Speaker 2: listening who are like, what the fuck are these ladies

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Speaker 2: talking about, the cliff notes version is that there were

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Speaker 2: about two million Korean people living in Manchuria, which is

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Speaker 2: the region of China immediately north of the Korean Peninsula

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Speaker 2: at the end of the nineteen twenties. They were living

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Speaker 2: there because they'd been forced into exile by the harsh

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Speaker 2: Japanese occupation of Korea, and some chunk of them lived

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Speaker 2: under explicitly anarchistic values because they were like, fuck, how

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Speaker 2: do we organize ourselves so we don't starve but also

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Speaker 2: can fight off Japanese imperialists? And the people who offered

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Speaker 2: a decent idea of how to do that were a

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Speaker 2: bunch of anarchists, veterans of the anti imperialist gorilla struggle.

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Speaker 2: This formation, this non state is still the cliff Notes

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Speaker 2: version it lasted about. This is about as much as

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Speaker 2: you get in the average treatment of it, right, And

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Speaker 2: this is like mostly what I knew and mostly what

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Speaker 2: people knew about it, because I'm somehow representative of everybody.

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Speaker 2: Everyone knows about the Korean People Association of Manchuria just anyway,

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Speaker 2: I know who some pop stars are. Chap ol' ron

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Speaker 2: was in a nights uniform on TV and multiple people

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Speaker 2: send it to me. I know pop culture anyway, who

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Speaker 2: is she she? I know a little bit about her

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Speaker 2: because like some of my friends are, you know, queer

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Speaker 2: sex workers. So they made sure I knew about this

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Speaker 2: a long time ago because that Ping Pony Club song,

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Speaker 2: so I know slightly more about her. I know she's queer,

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Speaker 2: and she wrote Ping Pony Club and she sounds like

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Speaker 2: modern Kate Bush, and I like it.

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Speaker 3: That's what I got. That's about all I know.

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Speaker 1: It's a great analysis.

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Speaker 3: You did it, okay.

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Speaker 2: But the Korean People's Association of Manchuria, I know about

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Speaker 2: ten thousand words of most of it's how it happened.

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Speaker 2: This non state lasted about two years, but Japanese imperial

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Speaker 2: forces kept assassinating their leaders, and the Communist Party of

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Speaker 2: China also kept assassinating their leaders, and the project fell

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Speaker 2: apart and Japan conquered Manchuria, which means that once again

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Speaker 2: a large scale anarchist or anarchistic project fell apart because

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Speaker 2: of the combined forces of reaction the imperialist Japan and

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Speaker 2: authoritarian communism both used violence to stop them. It happened

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Speaker 2: in Ukraine, it happened in Spain, and it happened in

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Speaker 2: between those two in Manchuria. So how did a bunch

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Speaker 2: of Korean peasants living in exile wind up living as anarchists?

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Speaker 2: How did that go for them?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 2: This weekend next we're going to try and answer that question,

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Speaker 2: and frustratingly, we're not going to completely succeed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's funny. The closest I've ever gotten

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Speaker 3: to like a first hand account of this was a

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Speaker 3: I sort of knew someone who's like grandma had been

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Speaker 3: in this.

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Speaker 2: Oh shit, that's cool.

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Speaker 3: But the ideology is so weird. Yeah, it's so deeply weird.

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Speaker 3: There's also and I think there's something we're gonna get

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Speaker 3: you too, is it's also deeply sort of connected to

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Speaker 3: Korean nationalist movements because this is because this is an

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Speaker 3: anti imperialist movement, and it there's some frankly baffling ideological

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Speaker 3: stuff that happens here that you couldn't get into.

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Speaker 2: And I suspect that there was not anywhere near a

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Speaker 2: real consensus about what that ideology meant. There was like

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Speaker 2: practical ideas This wasn't just like, oh, you know, if

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Speaker 2: you're listening to this is for the very first time,

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Speaker 2: you have no idea what talking about. When we say anarchism,

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Speaker 2: I'm not talking about being like there wasn't a government.

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Speaker 2: Everymber just kind of did stuff like it was a

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Speaker 2: system that was created that was an attempt at a

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Speaker 2: bottom up structure where like people's councils got together in villages,

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Speaker 2: passed delegates up to higher levels and made decisions collectively

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Speaker 2: and built a ton of schools and trained militarily and

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Speaker 2: fought against the imperialism of Japan. But beyond like those ideas, yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: the people all over the place in terms of what

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Speaker 2: people like really thought what was going on? You know,

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Speaker 2: in a weird way, it's like sort of the most

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Speaker 2: anarchic of all of the anarchists struggles I've read about

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Speaker 2: in that it's like in the almost like negative sense,

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Speaker 2: not the negative sense, but the like complicated, messy, multi

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Speaker 2: ideo logical sense. Anyway, along the way, what we learn

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Speaker 2: about this imperfectly, we're going to learn a fun time

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Speaker 2: about Korean in Japanese and Chinese politics. And when I

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Speaker 2: say we, I mean I guess you the audience. I

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Speaker 2: learned it all while reading this stuff. And we're going

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Speaker 2: to learn about anti colonial struggle, and we're going to

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Speaker 2: learn about a whole bunch of groups with really cool names.

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Speaker 2: They're all like called like the Black Friends Society and.

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Speaker 3: Those like so good.

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Speaker 2: They're all these like friends societies. It's really it's really sweet,

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Speaker 2: and all those grips are going to come and go

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Speaker 2: because of oppression. So come with me if you will.

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Speaker 2: On Korean anarchism. This is my working title, anti colonial,

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Speaker 2: anti authoritarian, and awesome because I need another a word.

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Speaker 3: I love it. This is great, ten thousand, this is this. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I gotta go behind the scenes for a second. The

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Speaker 3: apps people think that the hardest part of writing an

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Speaker 3: episode is doing research, and they are wrong. It is not.

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Speaker 3: It's not the actual podcasting itself. The single hardest part

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Speaker 3: is writing the title of description.

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Speaker 1: To me, is the show you work on perhaps daily?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm believably difficult. Oh my god, it's so annoying.

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Speaker 3: You've written so many titles.

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Speaker 1: If we could just call the episode episode and then

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Speaker 1: like fifty two.

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Speaker 2: Or whatever, Oh yeah, it'd be more like five seven

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty four or something. At this point, probably,

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Speaker 2: but well, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I gotta say I remember when I uh, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: I'm blinking. His name, Zack Snyder.

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Speaker 2: That one the director I don't know names.

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Speaker 3: Sophie helped me here. I can't remember which one's Timothy

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Speaker 3: Snyder's the historian, Zack Snyder is the director d Snyder.

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Speaker 3: I know that one.

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Speaker 1: Zack Snyder's the filmmaker.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, he released a movie called Rebel Mood Part

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Speaker 3: two Scargiver, and it made me feel so much better

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Speaker 3: about myself because, like, so many people got paid so

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Speaker 3: much money to come up with the title for that movie,

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Speaker 3: and they came up with that, and I had just

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Speaker 3: come up with an episode, the title of which was

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Speaker 3: The Cheapest Land Is Bought in Blood, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: I'm so good at this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I would watch a movie called The Cheapest

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Speaker 2: Land Is Bought in Blood. It could be almost any

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Speaker 2: of the episodes I've done with the shit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that one was a Palis side episode for I

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Speaker 2: think obvious reasons. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 2: so histy or factal section, Wow, historiographical section, historiographical section,

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Speaker 2: how about that? Historiographical? Does that sound right?

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Speaker 3: I think it's historiography.

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Speaker 2: I think, I figure, okay, historiography if I get enough

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Speaker 2: of the English words wrong. Then the fact that I

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Speaker 2: looked up basically every Korean name in this and not

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Speaker 2: all of them could I find pronunciations for.

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Speaker 3: I am so sorry. I can I help it all

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Speaker 3: about this? I know no Korean. It's okay. So it's okay,

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Speaker 3: completely useless here, I'm apologizing to Koreate advance.

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Speaker 2: I looked them up, and also all of them are

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Speaker 2: being transliterated in different ways in different sources. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: I want to do this thing that might become a

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Speaker 2: regular segment on the show. Maybe you'll end up at

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Speaker 2: the end, maybe you'll end up at the beginning. For

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Speaker 2: right now, because of this particular complicated story, it's here

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Speaker 2: at the beginning. History is, of course, the study of history. Historiography,

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Speaker 2: however it's pronounced, is the study of studying history. By

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Speaker 2: the way, if you're one of the fifteen people who's

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Speaker 2: currently opening up a messaging app to tell me how

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Speaker 2: to pronounce it, I don't care. I don't want you

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Speaker 2: to tell me.

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Speaker 1: I also don't care. Yeah, they don't care.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, Historiography is studying history. It's how we talk about history,

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Speaker 2: and I want to start talking a bit more explicitly

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Speaker 2: about how people talk about what they talk about, because

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Speaker 2: this is one of the things that bothers me about

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Speaker 2: my own genre of pop history, right because I'm a

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Speaker 2: pop historian. You know, I'm not a historian. I don't

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Speaker 2: do the research. I look at the research. I look

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Speaker 2: at second hand sources primarily. You know. One of the

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Speaker 2: things that bothers me is that it's like really easy

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Speaker 2: to create these sort of like here's a fun story

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Speaker 2: that's like completely uncomplicated, because that's like the easier way

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Speaker 2: to get yeah, clicks or whatever you call downloads, I

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Speaker 2: don't know whatever, listeners. I am constantly trying to piece

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Speaker 2: together stories that are a bit hard to piece together.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes the stories are hard to piece together because they're

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Speaker 2: so widely known that they're sort of mythologized and misrepresented

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Speaker 2: and there's just like a million little like listical articles

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Speaker 2: about them or whatever. Sometimes stories are hard to piece

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Speaker 2: together because they're obscure as fuck and people involved didn't

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Speaker 2: take notes because they were all criminals. This story is

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Speaker 2: somehow hard for both reasons. Because Korea is one of

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Speaker 2: the few countries in the world that simply cannot hide

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Speaker 2: from its anarchist past. Instead, its anarchist heroes have become

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Speaker 2: national heroes, and those people's anarchism is a quirky side note,

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Speaker 2: or it is wrapped up in the national flag. You'll

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Speaker 2: see this some in Mexico and Ukraine and Spain, and

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Speaker 2: I've also seen it in Argentina, and I suspect there's

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Speaker 2: some other countries that kind of can't get away from it,

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Speaker 2: so they have to figure out how to cope with

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Speaker 2: the fact that they're like, yeah, you know, heroes were anarchists.

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Speaker 2: In Korea, it's extra complicated because of what me had

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Speaker 2: talked about a good number of the anti colonial heroes

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Speaker 2: of Korea were anarchists. And sometimes that anarchism has talked

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Speaker 2: about and sometimes it isn't. But Korean anarchism, because it

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Speaker 2: was built on an anti colonial movement, has a nationalistic

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Speaker 2: character that you don't find elsewhere.

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Speaker 3: I mean you do.

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Speaker 2: You find different versions of it elsewhere, right, But it's

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Speaker 2: different everywhere because it's different nations. That's part of nationalism.

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Speaker 2: I read a lot of long and short essays and

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Speaker 2: most of a book for this episode. I stopped the

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Speaker 2: book once I got well passed where it was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, once I got past World.

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Speaker 2: War Two, I was like, that's not what I'm covering

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Speaker 2: right now. You know, I still haven't read everything I

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Speaker 2: can about the Mancharian Anarchist Project because most of the

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Speaker 2: things that talk about this era aren't talking about the

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Speaker 2: anarchist project. They're talking about Korean independence separately, or they

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Speaker 2: like write in the other major characters of the twentieth

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Speaker 2: century instead. You know, basically, more work needs to be

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Speaker 2: done to make available in English information about the Korean

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Speaker 2: People's Association of Manchuria, and I would have needed half

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Speaker 2: a year instead of the two weeks I got in

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Speaker 2: order to like really break like do historian work instead

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Speaker 2: of what I do. But don't worry. I still think

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Speaker 2: these episodes are going to be really good and we're

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Speaker 2: going to learn a ton, and I'm just expressing upfront

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Speaker 2: there's more work to be done. Some of the sources

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Speaker 2: I used the History of the Korean Anarchist Movement by

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Speaker 2: Hockey Rock, which was written in nineteen eighty six by

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Speaker 2: Korean anarchist who's part of Korean Anarchist Federation. This was

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Speaker 2: the kind of first English language thing. It's been suggested

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Speaker 2: by other sources that this has a bias towards nationalist

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Speaker 2: and a more reformist look at anarchism, because Korean anarchism

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Speaker 2: has a different character than it does in most places,

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Speaker 2: and it has more both reformism and nationalism than it

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Speaker 2: does elsewhere. Then there's the book that both me and

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Speaker 2: I read called Anarchism in Korea by Dong Yon Huong,

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Speaker 2: which was published in twenty sixteen, and in many ways

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Speaker 2: it's a refutation of the nationalism presented by Hockey Rock.

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Speaker 2: Neither of these are very accessibly written. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to let go on at length because like, good on

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Speaker 2: you historians, thank you for doing this work, but these

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Speaker 2: are not written in ways that are entertaining.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one of the hardest things I've ever tried

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Speaker 3: to read, which is sort of wild considering how much

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Speaker 3: stuff I got handed by way professors in college.

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Speaker 2: And like, I felt so much better when you told

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Speaker 2: me that, because it is the hardest book I've probably

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Speaker 2: ever read for this show in terms of just like

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Speaker 2: it's not particularly chronological, and it is making arguments about

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Speaker 2: ideology that aren't directly relevant to It's very direct relevant

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Speaker 2: to the subject matter, but it's not necessarily relevant to

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Speaker 2: like conversations that I'm usually part of, you know, anyway,

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Speaker 2: I'm not trying to go on about it. And then

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Speaker 2: there's another source called The Cartography of Revolutionary Anarchism by

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Speaker 2: Michael Schmidt, which talks about the Korean People's Association more accessibly.

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Speaker 2: Michael Schmidt is a disgraced author because he's this white

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Speaker 2: South African guy who it turns out he went from

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Speaker 2: anarchism to national anarchism to regular old nationalism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, real fiasco.

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Speaker 2: And then okay, almost known of my sources, there's another

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Speaker 2: summary available on libcom called Summary of the Symonym Prefecture.

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Speaker 2: It's basically by anonymous. It's like by a Twitter handle

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Speaker 2: that doesn't exist anymore, and it is, sadly mostly a summary.

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Speaker 2: It is a summary of a book in Korean that

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Speaker 2: I want to read, but I don't read Korean, which

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Speaker 2: is not anyone in Korea's fault.

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Speaker 3: It is my fault.

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Speaker 2: I feel confident about what I'm going to tell you well,

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Speaker 2: but I wish I could tell you even more because

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Speaker 2: there's just so much here. There is as much history

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Speaker 2: here as there is in Western Europe, and we just

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Speaker 2: focus not on the wrong shit, but we just need

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Speaker 2: to focus on more shit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I have a thesis that I'm public going

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Speaker 3: to do in like part four of this, which is

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Speaker 3: that I actually think this event is really important to

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Speaker 3: understanding the history of Japanese fascism. And I think the

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Speaker 3: fact that everyone has forgotten about this whole incident is

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Speaker 3: actually part of why all of the Western scholars who

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Speaker 3: you read going like, ah, Japan wasn't fascist, it was

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Speaker 3: just like anulter nationalist monarchy or whatever. I think that's

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Speaker 3: part of why they screwed up, because this is the

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Speaker 3: missing It's like one of the arguments that like fascism

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Speaker 3: scholars make because fascism is a direct reaction to sort

401
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Speaker 3: of like leftist revolutionary movements, right, And the thing in

402
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Speaker 3: Japan is that there kind of wasn't one, right, and

403
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Speaker 3: like on this scale of something like like the two

404
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,959
Speaker 3: Red Years in Italy were like anarchist neely took over

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Speaker 3: the country. There isn't one, but there is. It's just

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Speaker 3: that it was in Manchuria and not in Japan. And

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Speaker 3: this has caused generations of fascism scholars like including like Paxton,

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Speaker 3: whose work is usually pretty good, I think, to just

409
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 3: fundamentally misunderstand what was happening in Japan. So this is

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Speaker 3: my thesis I will present at the very very end

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Speaker 3: of this whole thing. I'm excited to hear it.

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Speaker 2: But you know what I'm even more excited to hear

413
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Speaker 2: is it the products and services that support this podcast?

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Speaker 3: I am.

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Speaker 2: I'm just always so curious what will happen when I

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Speaker 2: As soon as the little jingle music cuts in.

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Speaker 3: Who knows back. So let's say about Korea.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to speed run a little bit of Korea,

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Speaker 2: although most of our story isn't going to take place

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Speaker 2: in Korea.

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Speaker 3: That's one of the things about Korean anarchism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the wild part of this. There's a place

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Speaker 2: called Korea. Currently, quite famously, it is divided into sort

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Speaker 2: of the easiest encapsulation of the Cold War left on

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Speaker 2: the planet. The North, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea,

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Speaker 2: is a communist hotalitarian society, and the South, the Republic

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Speaker 2: of Korea, is a capitalist society, and they are in

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Speaker 2: a Cold war still because both claim to be the

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Speaker 2: rightful rulers of the entire peninsula. This division between North

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Speaker 2: and South, I think it's really important for people to

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00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 2: understand it's not fostered by like some deep ideological cultural

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Speaker 2: split between North Korean people and South Korean people. The

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Speaker 2: dividing line between the two countries, roughly the thirty eighth parallel,

434
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 2: was just where the USSR and the USA decided to

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Speaker 2: divide up their spoils after they drove the Japanese out.

436
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's kind of funny because it's like there

437
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 3: are places in East Asia where it would have made

438
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 3: sense for that to happen, Like if that had happened

439
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 3: in China, it's like, well, yeah, okay, so like so

440
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 3: then China endure. Then China have had you know, I

441
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 3: mean different even different parts of it, but like I've

442
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 3: had enormous sort of cultural and social problems with each

443
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 3: other for like hundreds of years. But no, it happened

444
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 3: to Korea, where like that's kind of not a thing.

445
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 3: It's it's we got we got the most Like any

446
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 3: division like that is obviously going to be arbitrary, but

447
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 3: we got the most arbitrary one conceivable based on a

448
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 3: bunch of imperialists being evil.

449
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't make it into my script, but I

450
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 2: was listening to this. That's a bunch of history of

451
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 2: Korea podcast just for the like broadest possible context. And

452
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 2: one of them and I didn't write this down and

453
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, was like two random American guys just were like,

454
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 2: oh no, what about that line? And people are like,

455
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: that's it, that's the line that sucks.

456
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is like eighty this is like eight how

457
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 3: eighty percent of the border centers were drawn. Yeah, just

458
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 3: totally some British guy, I guess this is technically would

459
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: have been an American guy, but like, yeah, some some

460
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 3: random English speaking dude wentz scribbled on a map and

461
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 3: now there's like two rbs on either side of.

462
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 2: The Korean Peninsula. People have been there for tens of

463
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 2: thousands of years at least, and you've got the Three

464
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 2: Kingdoms period starting at like fifty seven BC, and then

465
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 2: by the end of the tenth century AD, you've got

466
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: the dynasties kicking in that have unified the place. Most

467
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: of these dynasties haven't been fully independent, but instead under

468
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 2: the influence of the Mongol Empire and various Chinese dynasties,

469
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: and Japan also like to invade a lot, so Korea

470
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: seems to be like one of those. Like to use

471
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 2: a European comparison, because I know more about the history

472
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: of Finland coming into it.

473
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 3: Like it's a Finland.

474
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 2: It's a place that other places just trade back and

475
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 2: forth and treat like shit, but then there's still a

476
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 2: like culture and some Actually I think I had more

477
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: home rule than Finland ever did. Anyway, the last of

478
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: these dynasties was the Josian dynasty, which lasted for five

479
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 2: hundred and five years, which, for those keeping track at home,

480
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 2: is more than two ussays and more than one hundred

481
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 2: and twenty five confederacies.

482
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 3: I think that's such a long dynasty. Like, I think

483
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 3: that's way longer for any of the Chinese dynasties. I'm

484
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: pretty sure. Unless I'm really screwing up my Chinese dynasty history,

485
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 3: I think it's like twice as long as any of

486
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 3: though maybe more.

487
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 2: That's impressive. It's a really long time. It is the

488
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 2: longest I've ever read about at anywhere. But I haven't

489
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: read a ton of it, right, but I do. I'm like,

490
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: I don't know history, and I'm like, okay, I do.

491
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 2: I read more history books than the average person, and

492
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: I want to replaced which I didn't write down the

493
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: name and I'm very sorry. Also lasted for almost five

494
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 2: hundred years, like cheese. Like, so when this one fell,

495
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: people were like they didn't see it coming because they're like, nah,

496
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: it's just there. That's just like the fucking like, that's

497
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: as long as white people have been in North America,

498
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 2: you know, Like, yeah, it's wild. Yeah, when power would

499
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: change hands between these dynasties, it's always got it bad.

500
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: The Josian dynasty sometimes called the Lee dynasty. If you're

501
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 2: reading some sources and get confused, like I did, that's

502
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: because it's referred to by different names by different sources,

503
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: but it's the same thing. The Josian Dynasty use neo

504
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: confusion ideology to rob the shit out of the working class, which,

505
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 2: in this case, since it's an agricultural society, is the peasants.

506
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: People were paying more than half their yield and taxes,

507
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: while officials paid no taxes at all. This is totally

508
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: not familiar to the modern reader. I don't know what

509
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: you're talking about. Yeah, a cast system was introduced. Taxes

510
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 2: were so bad that a lot of people abandoned their

511
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: land entirely to become drifters. Lots of people either became rebels,

512
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: or robbers, and I'm willing to bet the line between

513
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: these two things was not clearcut. So the Josian dynasty

514
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 2: was not like a happy great time, and therefore that

515
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: makes the colonization and imperialization of it totally justified, says

516
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: some people that you can still read writing today. God,

517
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: when I talk to you about how I was going

518
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: to do this episode, you said a thing to me.

519
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 2: You said, Oh, I'm excited I'm finally going to learn

520
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: about Korean anarchism before nineteen twenty. Well, yes and no,

521
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: because I'm going to talk about some of the precursors

522
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: to anarchism in Korea that have been marked by modern

523
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 2: Korean anarchists as precursors. Our main subject is the anarchist

524
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: movement in Korea, and the Korean anarchist historian Hockey Rack

525
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 2: presents a sort of interesting precedent to it, one that

526
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: got all the more interesting once you look at the

527
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: larger context around it. This precursor is strictly ideological, but

528
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: I love how basically anarchist communism has come up as

529
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: an ideological concept over and over again all throughout history.

530
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 2: You can read about whether it's the diggers or whether

531
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 2: it's like Siberian peasants or like just over and over again,

532
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: especially in religious movements actually, because that's just kind of

533
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 2: what philosophy was called. That in the day more or

534
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: less you find people being like, what if anarchist communism,

535
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: They just don't have those words.

536
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a really famous one in China called the

537
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 3: Movement of the Tillers, where there's a lot of dispute

538
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 3: over what they believed because.

539
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: Because everyone wants to claim him, well, because because all

540
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 2: of their actual direct writing was immediately destroyed when Hambudi

541
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: took power, because he except for their agricultural manuals, which

542
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: were so good that like the empire like just kept

543
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 2: using them.

544
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of dispute over exactly what they believed.

545
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 3: But there's a version of it where it's like they're

546
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: basically an anarchist society, but they have one guy who's

547
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 3: a king, but he's just he doesn't do anything different.

548
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: He's just also in the fields and they call him

549
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 2: the king. Oh my god, this is just Tolkien. This

550
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 2: is what Tolkien wants. Yeah, this is the future Tolkien wants.

551
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 2: The the the In the Tolkien version, the king is

552
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 2: supposed to handle politics. This guy, I think, is just

553
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 2: supposed to be like yeah, it's it's almost war. It's

554
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 2: it's almost more of like a chieftain thing where he's.

555
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: Just like, yeah, okay, I'm going to convince it to

556
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 3: go to the fields and waking up early and shaming everyone.

557
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 3: It's going to work because you gotta get out.

558
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: So the Sophie, they need a sophie. They need someone

559
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: to actually get people to do the things. I need

560
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 2: a Sophie. I'm glad I have one.

561
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 3: Thank you me too. Thank you. So there was a

562
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 3: man who his name is.

563
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: A million names depends on which source you read, but

564
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: overall his name is Dsan or Trung da Son or

565
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: a bunch of other things.

566
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: It's kind of my favorite man. When you're like, what's

567
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: his name, we don't know.

568
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 2: He's great. Yeah, he has a lot of fucking names,

569
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 2: and I mean what it is is that he has

570
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: like names that are transliterated in different ways. And then

571
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 2: he also has an art name, which is Dasan, which

572
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: is like mono name.

573
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a man with a personality in hobbies. Yeah extinct.

574
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 4: The song was his art name, which is a phrase

575
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 4: that I run across all the time he is extinct

576
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 4: this particular one as well.

577
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 3: I think I wounded.

578
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 2: If this is a pop culture reference that's gone over

579
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 2: my head, but I'm not sure.

580
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 3: Okay, cool a joke that I don't think you heard

581
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 3: me say.

582
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: Okay, he was born in seventeen sixty two, so now

583
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to figure what that sho'd ask what

584
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 2: the joke is. No, it'd be funnier if I don't know.

585
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: Okay to the audience, he was born in seventeen sixty two,

586
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: so like a long ass time ago. He was this

587
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: sort of super famous and influential philosopher and poet, and

588
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: he was an advisor to the king, like he was

589
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: super high up a guy. And then in eighteen hundred

590
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: or so, he was forced into exile because his family

591
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: was Catholic. Was he Catholic? It depends on the source

592
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: you read. Ah. Some sources are very specific that he

593
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: was Catholic. Some sources are very specific that he was

594
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: not Catholic. So he's very much one or the other.

595
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: I suspect he's somehow both. His family was very Catholic,

596
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: you know that much. While he was in exile, he

597
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: was forced to live among the peasants, and he saw

598
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: how bad they had it, and he was like, we

599
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: should have a better way to run things. And this

600
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: to me, I don't know a ton about Confucism, but

601
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: I read a fair amount for this. This seems like

602
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: a very confusion way to like be like, oh, let's

603
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: find better ways to run things, Like I am going

604
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: to create a system that is going to be very

605
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 2: specific and run things, you know, so in your return

606
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: to court. He had all these ideas and he was

607
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: part of what gets called the realist movement or the

608
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: Silhac movement. Wikipedia argues that the Silhac movement is part

609
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: of neo Confucism. The Korean historian Hockey Rock suggests that

610
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: the movement was heavily influenced by Catholicism and that most

611
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: of its major people were Catholics. I don't know, yeah,

612
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I this is we're getting into the parts

613
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: of create istory.

614
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: I don't know very well. I will say later like

615
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: Christianity in Korea is really really syncretic, even even sorted

616
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: by the standards of Catholicism, which gets syncretic really really fast, right,

617
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 3: and it leaves Europe. But yeah, it I don't know.

618
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 3: I mean, it could just be both and every side

619
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 3: was angry about it. It could have just been I

620
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 3: don't know, I suspect it's.

621
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: Both in every side is angry about it, and it's

622
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: kind of syncretic, and like, I find it fascinating. You know,

623
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: you're like, Okay, let's take some of the social teachings

624
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: of Catholicism and some of the let's try to have

625
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 2: a good theory of government from Confucism, and you end

626
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: up with this, And then you take some particular thinkers

627
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: is not guaranteed to happen, and you wind up with this.

628
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 2: Like proto anarchist communism, the realist movement advocated for land

629
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: reform that would divide the land up into basically village

630
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: collective ownership of about thirty families, called the eogion system,

631
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: and they would cultivate land collectively. Those who farm the

632
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: land would get a share of the produce, and those

633
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: who don't farm the land won't. But then you like

634
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: have sort of free exchange between those people. Crafts people

635
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: would trade their work for grain. Intellectuals and aristocrats would

636
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: have to help with productive activities as well, whether through

637
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: the direct application of intellectual labor to like this is

638
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: how we could try and grow things better or just

639
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: going out and helping grow things like you can't. You

640
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: can't just be a thinker. That's not a job that

641
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: this movement agrees with. Dassan wrote, quote, why should the

642
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: man who has the title of saw the aristocrats try

643
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: to grab the products of the land and swallow the

644
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: fruits of labor without toil. Because the men with the

645
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: title saw eat without doing any work, the benefits coming

646
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 2: from the land are not developed to their full extent,

647
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: and the ill of the society continues to accumulate. Is

648
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: just very similar to like Russian philosophy, like Russian communist

649
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: philosophy in like the nineteenth century.

650
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have developed land to the tillers. We have

651
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 3: done it very quickly. Yeah.

652
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: He wrote about methods by which these societies could self

653
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: regulate without enforcement from above. This is where the anarcho

654
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: part comes in. Everyone has free will, and it is

655
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: by encouraging people's free will and the best development of

656
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 2: their own desires and things like that that we can

657
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: allow society to organize organically. That's an interesting thing because

658
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: if like it's kind of it's almost like Smithian to

659
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: me in the sense that, Yeah, I could see that.

660
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: It's this argument that like people.

661
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 3: Following their own will will inevitably sort of like self

662
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 3: organizing to a system. But like the sort of Smith

663
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: argument is that this will form a market and that

664
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 3: God will sort of like come in and help them.

665
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: They take out God leader. But right, yeah, it's interesting.

666
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: It's like it's that same kind of argument but for

667
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 3: a very very different system. No, you're right, that's actually

668
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: really interesting because there is always a like it's always

669
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 3: a little sketchy when anyone describing a political system gets

670
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 3: hand wavy, and it's like and then it'll work, and

671
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 3: you're like by what it means and you're like hocus focus,

672
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 3: you know, and like and sometimes it's just sometimes that's true,

673
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: but usually you.

674
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 2: Kind of have to set things up in motion to

675
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: get things to work that way, you know. But yeah,

676
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: I know it's a it's an interesting system, and I

677
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: see why. It's like not just like this doesn't become

678
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: the platform of Korean anarchism, right, but they like recognize

679
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: it as proto anarchism or at least this, you know,

680
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: hockey rock does. Dassan wrote about leadership, describing basically a

681
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: federation model familiar to those who study like democratic and

682
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 2: federalism or different federated anarchist structures or democratic structures. He

683
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: wrote quote, if there are sixty four dancers in the yard,

684
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: we select a man among them as the conductor to

685
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: lead the dance party. If he accomplishes his work successfully,

686
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 2: the audience will applaud him as our conductor. If he

687
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 2: fails to do so, he will be dragged out and

688
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: replaced by another able one. A representative of a group

689
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 2: is the same hmmm. And this is like the idea

690
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: of like a delegate with mandates is, for example, how

691
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: the Spanish anarchists organize their society during the revolution. Historian

692
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: Hockey Rock wrote about this quote, we find an ideology

693
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 2: of self liberation in Dissan. However, his age was not

694
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: right to accept his ideas. His voice remained as an

695
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 2: empty echo of a scholar in exile. It took another

696
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: century for his theory to receive the proper social response.

697
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 2: And you know what the proper social response to ideas

698
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: is market them for profit and then advertise them. So

699
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: this show is brought to you by the YogiOn system.

700
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: Go out and get thirty families and start a commune.

701
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 2: But it only works if you federate it up.

702
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 3: Here, you go and we're back. I hope all of

703
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: the ads were for weird communes, only good weird communes,

704
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 3: So we're actually bad weird communes. Let's be real.

705
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: Communes in general don't have a really good history. Like, hey,

706
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 2: the parish one was Okay, that's true, that's true, didn't

707
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: last super long. But yeah, I think overall, like all

708
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: of the attempts at like utopian society things that I

709
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 2: think they don't work as they're like outside of society.

710
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 2: I think that they don't work because they're like it

711
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 2: actually kind of takes all of us to do these

712
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: things together, you know.

713
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, which, which which is why when you found your commune,

714
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 3: it has to be the whole. It has to be

715
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 3: named after the city you need to get like the

716
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 3: another mohawk in commune. And once you get it named

717
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 3: after the full city that you've that you're now running,

718
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 3: it'll it'll work. Then you got a chance. Yeah.

719
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to dox myself by saying how small

720
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: the town I live in is, but I'm like, you know,

721
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: I have a chance. So the dynasty continues. People didn't

722
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 2: like living under oppressive conditions, and by the nineteenth century

723
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: it's unstable as fuck. By the eighteen sixties you've got

724
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 2: all these peasant revolts throughout Korea. I think you're named.

725
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: Chue Ju was like, let's do something new. His new

726
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 2: idea was called dong Hawk or Eastern Study, and it's

727
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: sort of a religious political ideology that eventually became a

728
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: proper religion of its own.

729
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 3: Have you heard of this? No, I don't think you've

730
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 3: run into it.

731
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: So this is the like religion behind the major uprisings

732
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: in the second half of the nineteenth century in Korea,

733
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 2: which is like one of those things when if you

734
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 2: say the whole thing out it sounds very minor, but

735
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: if you live in Korea, it's a really big If

736
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: you're in Korea in eighteen sixties, this is a big deal.

737
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: You know. Some of the basic ideas of this Eastern

738
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 2: Study of Donghak is fighting against Western religious colonization by

739
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: the Catholics and against the Confucism that's also being shitty

740
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: to us, although depending on who you read, it's either

741
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 2: anti Confucianism or it's a reform of Confucianism. Also, it's

742
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 2: kind of just Christianity with the serial numbers scraped off.

743
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: But they're like, we want to get rid of inequality,

744
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: whether it's feudalism or slavery, or patriarchy or agism or

745
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: class differences. They are like listing it out, you know.

746
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, that rules. We love this. This is great.

747
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it seems as though this is Christianity syncretized

748
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 2: with Korean traditional beliefs. Chue himself said, quote, the meanings

749
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: are the same, only the words are different. Like that's

750
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 2: why we think it's it's this. It's because he said

751
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 2: it is, you know, but it is different. It is

752
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 2: like a very like every person is heaven, you know,

753
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: all people are themselves part of Heaven. I'm not gonna

754
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: be able to.

755
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 3: Do That's cool.

756
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's an interesting idea. And once again,

757
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 2: I've seen it called both christian and Confucism, and it's

758
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: also against both of those things. And so that's just

759
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 2: kind of the history of before before the anarchists get

760
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 2: on the scene under the name anarchism.

761
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 3: That's just all of it. It kind of reminds you

762
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: of these things where it's like everyone's arguing about like

763
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: a really obscure Marxist reformist movement or something where it's

764
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: like you're you're on like branch seventeen of like a

765
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 3: Trotskyite faction, and it's like, are they Trotskyites? Are they neocons?

766
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 3: Have they renounced Marxism? Is this a critique of Marxism?

767
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 3: Is this who knows? We're unable to discern?

768
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, Like, and you know, it's like I suspect

769
00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 2: that at the end of the day, it was people

770
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 2: who were like, man, you know, it would be cool

771
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: if we weren't being oppressed. Yeah, this seems like an

772
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 2: all right method of doing it. We're all part of Heaven. Fuck, yeah,

773
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: let's go. Like the first thing that the religion tried

774
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 2: to do was overthrow the government, which is cool and good. Yeah,

775
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: and they had some success. They took over parts of

776
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,959
Speaker 2: South Korea or Southern Korea, but not South Korea.

777
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 3: Whatever.

778
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: This didn't last, and Chuey himself got executed pretty much

779
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: right off the bat. But this didn't like just die

780
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 2: with him, because it wasn't actually just a charismatic leader movement.

781
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: As best as I can tell, I don't know, one

782
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: day I'm going to do a deep dive and do

783
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 2: a whole series on this thing maybe and I'll learn

784
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 2: more about it. This sort of democratic nationalist religious movement transformed.

785
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 2: It's actually still around as a religion called Cheonduism, and

786
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 2: it's a pantheistic religion that I know basically nothing about

787
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: except what I've just said. Nineteenth century it changed the

788
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 2: shit out of the world, as we've talked about a lot,

789
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 2: and Korea didn't modernize really, which left them pretty vulnerable.

790
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: So Japan started bringing the under its influence. China also

791
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: hadn't super modernized and it was under Chinese influence, but

792
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 2: Japan was stronger, so they were like, yeah, but we

793
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: want this.

794
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, China has this, Like there's a whole history there.

795
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 3: I like, China attempts to modernize and it just doesn't

796
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 3: work it okay, Yeah, I mean they're fucking country. Yeah,

797
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 3: it's that. And also, like the thing about Japan is

798
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 3: the degree of imperial pressure was under is really less

799
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 3: because I mean, one of the other things that's probably

800
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: probably gonna talk about a bit in this story, it

801
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 3: was like one of the other countries that is a

802
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 3: big imperial influence in Korea's Russia. Because Russia is pressing

803
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 3: so hard on China from the north that like there,

804
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you know, like China at this point

805
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 3: is like in the process of being split up of

806
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 3: like all these concessions and stuff like that.

807
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we're gonna talk a little bit about the

808
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: Russian imperial influence on Korea, but not a ton, but yeah,

809
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: like overall, it's like worth knowing that, you know, the

810
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 2: Czar is being like, oh, I'm not going to annex Korea,

811
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: but he's like kind of moving to annex Korea and like.

812
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like the fact that Russia can do that

813
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 3: is sort of a side of like the weakness of

814
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 3: the Chinese government at this point, because yeah, this is

815
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: still the dice the dynasties.

816
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, So by eighteen seventy six, Korea is

817
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: firmly under Japanese economic influence, which the Qing dynasty of

818
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: China isn't excited about because it was supposed to be

819
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 2: under their influence, and it is still politically more under

820
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 2: their influence, I believe at this time. By the eighteen nineties,

821
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: the Korean government not doing so hot, and so government

822
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 2: posts are just being sold. They're like, h you want

823
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 2: to be a minister or whatever, like just give me

824
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: a bunch of money, and so that you have these

825
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: new officials and then they would be like, oh, I

826
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: just paid a bunch of money for it. I know

827
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 2: I can get that money back. I will tax the

828
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 2: shit out of everyone. The Roman system terrible way to

829
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: road taxes. Oh no, zero of ten maybe the worst

830
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: way ever. And so those in addition to all these

831
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: droughts that are hitting, there's riots and there's suddenly bandits everywhere,

832
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: and there's minor uprisings that are turning to armed revolts,

833
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: and you know, the Center is not doing so much

834
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: holding and that Pesky Dong Hack movement is still around

835
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: and they've mostly been doing non violence for a couple decades.

836
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: But then they were like, let's go back to what

837
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: we started with. Let's go back to the violence part,

838
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 2: going back to the old bee. Yeah, yeah, totally the

839
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: midlife crisis, you know, like I gotta be going again.

840
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 2: They buy a motorcycle and they like, okay, you might

841
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: know is better than me. It seems like Korea is

842
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: kind of a powder keg that, like East Asia, is

843
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: not the same because of what happens in Korea rather

844
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 2: than it being like a hinter land. It seems like

845
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 2: it's like, because it's this place where everyone's having proxy

846
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: wars constantly. Anyway, I'll I'll just explain what happens. They're like,

847
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: all right, we want self governance, and we want an

848
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 2: end to exploitation, and we want no more super rich

849
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 2: assholes telling us what to do, and we want fucking

850
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 2: decent treatment. So let's fucking go. By January eighteen ninety four,

851
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: they started to take parts of the Cuntree by force,

852
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: and they grew as they went. They just snowballed. Everyone

853
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, that seems better because everywhere they would

854
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: go they would like get rid of the corrupt officials

855
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: and be like, hey, what if we're all good to

856
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: each other and like it actually seems like I haven't

857
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 2: read anything negative about them yet.

858
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 3: I'll put it that way. Great pitch, Yeah, that's the rules.

859
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 3: We love to see it.

860
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: No.

861
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, like by April there were ten thousand of them

862
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: in their army and there can eventually there's gona be

863
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand of them, and they're controlling half the

864
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: grain producing land in the country.

865
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 3: Wow.

866
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: And they formed farmer self rule committees everywhere they went,

867
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: so they're also like not crazy top down because actually

868
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: the idea of bottom up things is as natural as

869
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: top down things. And they would defeat the army again

870
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 2: and again, and they would try to be super moral

871
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,240
Speaker 2: about it every time they did. They would not slaughter

872
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: retreating enemies, they would treat prisoners well, all that kind

873
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 2: of stuff, right, and they did land reform everywhere they

874
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: went so that small farmers would have a better chance.

875
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 2: I mean, this is just like the revolutionary shit that

876
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,439
Speaker 2: everyone dreams of. Yeah, and the regular army the reason

877
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: they kept winning these military engagements as best as I

878
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 2: can tell, because later it's not gonna go well form,

879
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: but for a while it goes really well formed, because

880
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: when they're against the Korean military, there's mass desertions, like

881
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 2: at one point the army loses half of its numbers

882
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: before it gets into combat. Yeah, because everyone's like, nah,

883
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 2: I don't want to fight them, I don't want to

884
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: do this.

885
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 3: It sucks.

886
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so dog Hack Rebellion of eighteen ninety four

887
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 2: seems really solidly cool. People did cool stuff. I hope

888
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 2: one day gets its own episodes. By May seventh, they

889
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 2: reached a tentative peace treaty. They were like, no more slavery,

890
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 2: I actually don't know nearly enough about East Asian slavery

891
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: as I would like to. But it's gonna come up

892
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 2: a couple times in this episode that anarchists and also

893
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 2: the dong Hack people are abolitionists, abolish the caste system,

894
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 2: forgive all debts, and redistribute the land. And the government

895
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, we're gonna lose if we don't say yeah,

896
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 2: so yeah, we're into that. But then the government, this

897
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 2: is going to shock you. They didn't stay true to

898
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 2: their word.

899
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 3: Wow.

900
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: They were like, what if instead of creating heaven on earth,

901
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 2: which is I think how dong Hak was like presenting

902
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 2: it basically right, because we're all heaven and so we're

903
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 2: all living equally, and you know, yeah, what if instead

904
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 2: we talked to our buddies in the Ching dynasty and

905
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: they sent soldiers over and then we like, shoot you

906
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: a bunch. But then Japan was like, well, what if

907
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: actually we use this moment to invade and overthrow you entirely?

908
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: Oh no, And so both those things happened. Oh and

909
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: this kicks off the First Sino Japanese War. This is

910
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 2: what I'm talking about, but like the powder keg shit, right, Yeah, yeah,

911
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 2: this peasant rebellion destabilized enough that Japan was like sweet ours.

912
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I never realized that that was that this was

913
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 3: kicked off by a peasant rebellion, huh.

914
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 2: I know. And then even then within that, like a

915
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: lot of what I've read isn't necessarily playing up the

916
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 2: religious aspects of the peasant rebellion, and so I like, yeah,

917
00:45:58,239 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: it's like part of why I want to know more

918
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: about it. Like I have red sources that are very

919
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: credible that are like this is the Donghak peasant rebellion,

920
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: and other ones that are like the peasant rebellion, you know,

921
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: So I don't know whether they're all like religiously converting

922
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: as they go.

923
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 3: I guess this is yeah, and yeah.

924
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 2: The Sino Japanese War of eighteen ninety four eighteen ninety

925
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 2: five firmly cements Korea at its current position of the

926
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: territory where huge imperialist powers have proxy wars YEP, Japan.

927
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: They just come in and murder the shit out of

928
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 2: the entire peasant army. That's the way that the peasant

929
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: rebellion gets put down. I've read of one hundred thousand

930
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 2: people being slaughtered by like machine gun and mortar.

931
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 3: I mean that sounds like the Japanese Army. They do

932
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 3: this a lot. They're gonna keep doing it until. Yeah,

933
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 3: it's really like if you like Jeppanese build or history,

934
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 3: it's really like it's it's an entire series of them

935
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 3: fighting in a bunch of countries who don't have it

936
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 3: industrial based the size of theirs until they finally pissed off,

937
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 3: like the only country on Earth that had an industrial

938
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 3: based the size of a continent that could just simply

939
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 3: like just just drop ships on them until they drowned.

940
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like my grandfather fought in the Pacific Theater

941
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 2: as a torpedo, and like, you know, there's very few

942
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 2: times with the US is the good guys, but this

943
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 2: is among them as far as I can tell.

944
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 3: Ye, I did bad stuff too, but oh they definitely did.

945
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 3: I'm more sympathetic to the US of the Pacific than

946
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 3: a lot of people are because like, yeah, my family

947
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 3: was like, like my grandma thought that she was an

948
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 3: orphan because her mom like picked up her sister and

949
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 3: like ran on foot across the country and they couldn't

950
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 3: take my grandma with her because she was too young

951
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 3: to like move. So like you know, I good, good,

952
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 3: good on the US.

953
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: Maybe do less war crimes, but I don't know, yeh,

954
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 2: steal less stuff while you're doing it.

955
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's what you get with the US is

956
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:54,919
Speaker 3: helping you unfortunately. Yeah.

957
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that a lot of people, like again,

958
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: like I'm not I'm not being like, oh, the US

959
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 2: was moral when they did the following things, but like,

960
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it is that people don't

961
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 2: pay enough attention to the scale of murder that the

962
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 2: Japanese were doing.

963
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they killed like thirty million people. Yeah, it's

964
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 3: like it's an unfathomable atrocity, except for the fact that

965
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 3: there was an even more unfathomable atrocity happening on the

966
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 3: other side of the world at the same time, right,

967
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 3: Like it's it's yeah, and so anyway, in one battle,

968
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 3: the Battle of Ugumchi, about forty thousand peasants soldiers went

969
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 3: up against a thousand professional soldiers. After a few days,

970
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 3: culminating on November eleventh, eighteen ninety four, five hundred of

971
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 3: the forty thousand people survived. Jesus, Yeah, and a handful

972
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 3: of soldiers on the Japanese side died like a small

973
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 3: enough number that it's not tracked. It's like, ah, couple,

974
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, John died like whatever, you know,

975
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 3: And yeah, it's just it's just a modernized army versus

976
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:02,240
Speaker 3: a peasant.

977
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a really a very quite good modernized army

978
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: like this. You see, like this is a Prussian trained army.

979
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 3: It is very in a period. We're Prussian ball. I guess.

980
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 3: I guess technically they Russians down. I mean, I guess

981
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 3: technically by this point they are now Germany. But yeah,

982
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 3: it's a it's a very very effective and brutal army.

983
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 3: Wait who trained Japan at this point? Oh well, I

984
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 3: mean they've been getting a lot of when they modeled

985
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 3: their military reforms. They originally modeled on the French, and

986
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 3: then the French lost Frank of Russian War, and so

987
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 3: they brought in the Germans.

988
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 2: Oh and they're like never mind.

989
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is funny because later on the Chinese are

990
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 3: also going to bring in the Germans, which leads to

991
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 3: the Nazis and Japan fighting each other in the thirty

992
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 3: seven in Chigaio're like, there's like Nazi officers who are

993
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,919
Speaker 3: like military advisors, who are like have field command fighting

994
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 3: Japan baffling, baffling place. Everything is so weird in this

995
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 3: part of the world. But yeah, yeah, this has been

996
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 3: by diversion. So leaders were hanged in mass in March

997
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,399
Speaker 3: eighteen ninety five and their rebellions done. Yeah, this war

998
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 3: not only ended dynastic rule in Korea, it was kind of,

999
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 3: according to one source, the Domino that ended dynastic rule

1000
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 3: in China, which fell apart in the nineteen eleven Revolution

1001
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 3: that I don't know a quarter about as much as

1002
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 3: i'd like to or should so, comparing the destruction of

1003
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 3: the Korean peasant movement and how that helped spur imperial

1004
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 3: Japan to oh, this is kind of like what you

1005
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 3: were talking about actually, to how the destruction of the

1006
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 3: Spanish Republic helped Western fascism. That historian that I'm quoting

1007
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 3: a lot, Hockey Rick, put it like this. Even though

1008
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 3: there was a lag of about forty years in the

1009
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 3: beginnings of these struggles and in the tempo of their

1010
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 3: subsequent interventions, we can evaluate that the eighteen ninety four

1011
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 3: Korean Peasant Revolution and the nineteen thirty seven Spanish Revolution

1012
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: were of the same world historical significance in terms of

1013
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 3: their characteristics as people's liberation fronts against feudalism and exploitation,

1014
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 3: and that they were international wars into feared with by

1015
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 3: foreign military services. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

1016
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like this is also the Spanish Republic part, you know,

1017
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 2: because the thing that we're going to talk about later

1018
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: is going to be compared to the Spanish Republic a lot, right,

1019
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: But this one also is basically what this person's saying.

1020
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: And so the rebellion fell, But don't worry because that's

1021
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 2: just part one of four. There's gonna be so many

1022
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 2: rebellions still to come.

1023
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 3: I'm so excited.

1024
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 2: And there's also schools. They're gonna build schools. There's gonna

1025
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: be an anarchist hospital. And it's not like just like

1026
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, I trust, I have a lot of

1027
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 2: anarchist doctor and medic friends, but I mean like it's

1028
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 2: like a hospital as it got building, and like people

1029
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:40,919
Speaker 2: go there like because their kids sick.

1030
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: You know.

1031
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 2: Korean anarchists are going to do a ton of things

1032
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: really well, and one of those things is build schools

1033
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: and at least one hospital, although well I guess it

1034
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 2: was Korean people work to the hospitals in China whatever. Anyway,

1035
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: it's really complicated, and we'll talk about it in part

1036
00:51:55,320 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 2: two or maybe three or four, but first let's talk about, uh,

1037
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 2: what you do? Who are you?

1038
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 3: How'd you get here? I walked into my closet where

1039
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 3: I'm recorded.

1040
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 2: Podcast podcasting is putting trans people back in the closets,

1041
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 2: fucked up. Actually very funny because I came out here first.

1042
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 2: Before I came out it real life to a lot

1043
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: of people. But yeah, yeah, I have a podcast called

1044
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: It Could Appen Here. I'm one of the hosts. We

1045
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 2: put out episodes every single day except for the weekend.

1046
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 2: I get that's not even true anymore because we.

1047
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 3: Have one of them on the weekend. Yeah, which is great. Yeah,

1048
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 3: you could find us wherever find podcasts or distributed. Yeah,

1049
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 3: wherever you found this one, Yeah, it'll it'll be there.

1050
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 3: It's it could Happen here. And yeah, I have no

1051
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 3: idea what we're going to be doing when this comes out,

1052
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 3: but it'll be something good. Hell yeah, I want to plug.

1053
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 3: Let's see.

1054
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 2: I have been binging all the other cools on media

1055
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: podcasts so hard this past week because whenever I'm doing

1056
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 2: like work around them, I live on I just listened

1057
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: to Jamie and Prop and Molly Conger and everyone, and

1058
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,959
Speaker 2: it's so good. And if you haven't heard Weird Little

1059
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: Guys yet, I binged all of Weird Little Guys, which

1060
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 2: is the new podcast from Cool Zone Media by Molly

1061
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: Conger and it's like the weird Little Nazis who are

1062
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: just somehow everywhere and how annoying they are and it's

1063
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 2: really entertaining.

1064
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 3: And so she listened to it.

1065
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: And also Hood Politics with Prop. There's a recent episode.

1066
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly when this will come out, but

1067
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 2: like there's a pretty recent episode that's explaining the economic policies.

1068
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: I think it's called The Hammer and the Finesser and

1069
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 2: it's really good. And that is one of my favorite teachers,

1070
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 2: is Prop. And so check out all the Cool Zone

1071
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 2: Media podcasts. Those are two of them, as well as

1072
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 2: this one. They're already listening to. And I have a

1073
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 2: book coming out. Sorry, there's more plugs than I thought

1074
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 2: it was going to be. I have a book coming

1075
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 2: out like really soon. It's called The Sapling Cage and

1076
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 2: there's an audiobook version and you can listen to the

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00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 2: first chapter of the audiobook more or less because I

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00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 2: got the audio book narrator to come on to the

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00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media book Club and read it to me

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00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: and so you can listen to that. There's so many

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00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 2: things you can do, including build society as a mutual

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00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 2: aid in thirty roughly families. But make sure it's not

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00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 2: just thirty of you total. You have to actually do

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00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:16,879
Speaker 2: with millions of people.

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Speaker 3: I believe in you.

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Speaker 1: Bye everyone, Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a

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00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,879
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and goal

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00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check

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Speaker 1: us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.