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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: I'm David gera host of The Big Take, and today

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Speaker 2: I'm sharing an episode from my series of Exit Interviews.

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Speaker 2: I spoke with senior officials in the Biden administration ahead

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Speaker 2: of Donald Trump's inauguration as they prepared to wind down

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Speaker 2: their work. These conversations were wide ranging, and in this one,

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Speaker 2: taped on December nineteenth, Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln discusses

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Speaker 2: the Biden administration's final push to negotiate a cease fire

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Speaker 2: deal between Israel and Hamas this week, that deal was signed.

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Speaker 2: In a press conference on Thursday, Blinken touted the hard

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Speaker 2: won diplomatic achievement, one that both the Biden and incoming

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Speaker 2: Trump administrations worked to make happen.

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Speaker 3: We've worked to broker a deal that would bring hostages home,

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Speaker 3: that would stop the fighting, that would surge you unitarian

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Speaker 3: aid to people who so desperately needed, that would create

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Speaker 3: the space to conclude a permanencies fire. We now have that,

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Speaker 3: and we expect implementation of the Agreen to begin on Sunday.

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Speaker 1: As President Biden said yesterday.

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Speaker 3: After more than four hundred days of struggle, a day

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Speaker 3: of success has arrived.

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Speaker 1: Here's my conversation with Blincoln.

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Speaker 2: Anthony Blincoln has about a month left as US Secretary

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Speaker 2: of State, and he's been racing around the world for meetings.

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Speaker 3: Whether it's Cutter, whether it's Egypt, whether it's Turkey, where

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Speaker 3: I was just last week.

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Speaker 2: Blincoln was there to talk about Syria and the wider

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Speaker 2: Middle East. He's also keeping tabs on Ukraine and the

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Speaker 2: fallout from recent no confidence votes in Europe. Blincoln spent

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Speaker 2: Thursday in New York at the United Nations. He's been

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Speaker 2: busy at a crucial moment, the run up to the

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Speaker 2: transfer of power from President Biden to President elect Trump.

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Speaker 3: I want to be able to hand off to the

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Speaker 3: incoming administration the best possible hand to play in all

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Speaker 3: of these areas, in all of these challenges, because the

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Speaker 3: world doesn't stop just because we're in a political transition.

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Speaker 2: Thursday morning, I sat down with Blincoln in Bloomberg's New

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Speaker 2: York headquarters to get the latest news from the Middle

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Speaker 2: East and to have him reflect on his tenure at

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Speaker 2: the State Department and share his outlook.

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Speaker 3: Let's get that conversation that we promised to you. Joining

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Speaker 3: us now with David Gera, the US Secretary of State

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Speaker 3: Anthony Blinkolm.

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Speaker 1: What hiao over to you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, and welcome to our audience on

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg Radio and Bloomberg Television worldwide. Mister Secretary, thank you

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Speaker 2: very much for being here.

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Speaker 1: Good age with you.

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Speaker 2: Last week I had a similar conversation with another member

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Speaker 2: of President Biden's cabinet, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen. Part of

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Speaker 2: it was live on television, but we kept the conversation

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Speaker 2: going when the camera's cut away. This is the big

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Speaker 2: take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gerra, and today on

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Speaker 2: the show, the seventy first Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln

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Speaker 2: on what's ahead in the Middle East and Ukraine and

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Speaker 2: how he's preparing the State Department for new leadership. Let's

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Speaker 2: start with Syria, and you've described this moment as one

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Speaker 2: of both promise and peril. That's right of what seems

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Speaker 2: like a de facto government that is a designated terrorist group.

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Speaker 2: And you've said that the US has been in contact

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Speaker 2: with HDS. What specifically have they said, I know there

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Speaker 2: are other groups operating in the country as well. What

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Speaker 2: have they said about how they might govern?

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Speaker 3: What we've heard them say is positive. The question is

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Speaker 3: what are they actually going to do. We brought together

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Speaker 3: with Jordan, countries from around the region last week and

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Speaker 3: we came together to set expectations. What is the international community,

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Speaker 3: what are the neighbors looking for as this transition takes

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Speaker 3: place in Syria? And we all agreed we want to

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Speaker 3: see something that's inclusive, that's non sectarian, that respects minorities, women,

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Speaker 3: that deals with any chemical weapons that may be remaining

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Speaker 3: in Syria, that doesn't aly with ISIS or any of

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Speaker 3: the terrorist groups through there. And the reason that's so

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Speaker 3: important is we want to make it clear to HTS

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Speaker 3: and all of the emerging authorities that the recognition that

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Speaker 3: they seek, the support that they seek a need from

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Speaker 3: the international community. Well, there's certain expectations that come along

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Speaker 3: with that. What everyone is focused on is what's actually

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Speaker 3: happening on the ground.

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Speaker 1: What are they doing.

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Speaker 3: Are they working to build a transition in Syria brings

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Speaker 3: everyone in. If they do that, and if they meet

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Speaker 3: some of these other tests that the international community is

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Speaker 3: looking for them to meet, then I think you can

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Speaker 3: see something very positive.

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Speaker 2: I look at this country that has a lot of

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Speaker 2: sanctions that are residual a lot of sanctions have been

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Speaker 2: in place for decades on Syria. Senator Chris Murphy of

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Speaker 2: Connecticut has called for a temporary suspension of sanctions. Is

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Speaker 2: that something that you would be amenable to and would

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Speaker 2: that be effective and helping you have more engagement with

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Speaker 2: what may be this new government.

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Speaker 3: So we're looking at all the authorities we have. We're

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Speaker 3: looking at all of the sanctions, not only our own.

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Speaker 3: The United Nations has sanctions on HTS.

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Speaker 1: It's leader.

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Speaker 3: And I think what we need to see is actual

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Speaker 3: concrete steps building an inclusive, non sectarian government, a transition

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Speaker 3: eventually getting to an election. As we see these steps taken,

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Speaker 3: then I think we'll be able to respond, others will

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Speaker 3: be able to respond.

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Speaker 2: There's been a lot of speculation that a ceasefire deal

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Speaker 2: could come together. When President Biden spoke about the deal

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Speaker 2: between Israel and has Belat, he was asked at the end,

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Speaker 2: do you think he can get a ceasefire deal by

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Speaker 2: the end of your tenure?

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Speaker 1: So he's hoping and praying.

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Speaker 2: Is there anything that's happened that gives more grounds for

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Speaker 2: hope than prayer going forward?

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Speaker 3: Here there is, and the reality is we should logically

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Speaker 3: be able to get this. And I say that with

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Speaker 3: all the caution that comes with that statement, because we've

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Speaker 3: been very close before, and we've had these Lucy in

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Speaker 3: the football moments where you're just ready to kick the

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Speaker 3: football and Lucy pulls it away. But what's changed is this,

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Speaker 3: Hamas knows that the cavalry is not coming to the rescue.

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Speaker 3: For months and months, it hoped it would get a

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Speaker 3: wider war with Hezbollah, with Iran, with Iranian aligned groups

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Speaker 3: coming in and creating more problems from Israel on more

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Speaker 3: fronts and helping Hamas endure.

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Speaker 1: We now know that's not happening.

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Speaker 3: They know it's not happening because of the very important

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Speaker 3: work that was done with us and with others dealing

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Speaker 3: with the unprecedented Iranian attacks on Israel, dealing with Hezbollah.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's concentrated minds among Hamas on the

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Speaker 3: need to complete the steal. Having said that, it's always

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Speaker 3: incredibly fraud and it's very hard to get decisions made,

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Speaker 3: it's hard to communicate, and for all of those reasons,

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Speaker 3: even as close as it is, it can still move

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Speaker 3: in the other direction. We've all been fanning out, working

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Speaker 3: with all of the different partners who can make a

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Speaker 3: difference and who may have some leverage with communications with Hamas,

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Speaker 3: whether it's Cutter, whether it's Egypt, whether it's Turkey, where

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Speaker 3: I was just last week. The fundamental question right now

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Speaker 3: is is Hamas finally prepared to say yes? And if

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Speaker 3: it does, we get the hostages back, we get a ceasefire,

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Speaker 3: we get an immediate dramatic improvement in the lives of

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Speaker 3: Palestinian children, women and men who've been caught in this

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Speaker 3: horrible crossfire since October seventh of Hamas is making if

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Speaker 3: they really purport to care about the Palestinian people, they

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Speaker 3: will say yes and do it.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you about that horrible crossfire, and it's

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Speaker 2: something that you've written about in a recent essay for

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Speaker 2: Foreign Affair, is the fact that millions have been displaced,

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Speaker 2: tens of thousands have been killed, Gaza has been kind

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Speaker 2: of reduced to rubble.

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Speaker 1: You've made twelve trips to the region.

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Speaker 2: How much regret do you have that kind of sustained

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Speaker 2: level of humanitarian aid hasn't made it into God over

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Speaker 2: the course of this conflict.

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Speaker 3: You know, from day one, we've tried to do several things,

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Speaker 3: going back to October seventh. First to stand resolute with

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Speaker 3: Israel to try to make sure that October seventh would

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Speaker 3: never happen again. Second to prevent this war from going wider,

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Speaker 3: because if that happened, if other fronts opened up, whether

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Speaker 3: it was with Iran, whether it was with Hezbollah, these.

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Speaker 1: Other groups, more.

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Speaker 3: Death, more destruction, and it would probably prolong what was

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Speaker 3: going on in Gaza. And three to do whatever we

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Speaker 3: could to make sure that people in Gaza were getting

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Speaker 3: the assistance they need, We're getting the protections they need,

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Speaker 3: and we have been on this virtually every single day,

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Speaker 3: and we've seen moments when more assistance was getting through.

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Speaker 3: Then we've seen moments where where it's ebbed and flowed.

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Speaker 3: But this has a dramatic effect on the lives and

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Speaker 3: livelihoods of people in Gaza. The last week or ten

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Speaker 3: days there has been a noticeable improvement, but we've seen

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Speaker 3: that before and then we've seen.

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Speaker 1: It fall off.

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Speaker 3: The best way to finally deal with the needs of

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Speaker 3: the people would be down in the conflict, would be

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Speaker 3: to get the ceasefire, to get the hostages home. That's

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Speaker 3: the best play because you have an environment that is unique,

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Speaker 3: you have a population that's trapped in Gaza, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: have anywhere to go. In most other conflicts, people they

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Speaker 3: can become refugees. That's not a good thing, but it's

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Speaker 3: better than being caught in the middle of a hot war.

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Speaker 3: And also you have an enemy in the case of

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Speaker 3: Hamas that's fully enmeshed with the civilian population living in

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Speaker 3: and under buildings, apartment buildings, schools, mosques, hospitals. That doesn't

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Speaker 3: obviate at all the responsibility that Israel has to try

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Speaker 3: to ensure that assistance gets to people who need it

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Speaker 3: and that people are protected as best possible. And look,

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Speaker 3: we've been working very hard to make sure that as

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Speaker 3: best we can we actually start to implement plans for

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Speaker 3: a better future for the region, or if we don't

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Speaker 3: have time to fully do that, to be able to

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Speaker 3: hand them off, not just getting the hostage and cease

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Speaker 3: fire deal, but having a clear plan for what follows,

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Speaker 3: a day after plan for Gaza, so that there's no

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Speaker 3: vacuum that Hamas can refill, that Israel can pull out,

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Speaker 3: and you can have Gaza stand up forwards people, administration, security, reconstruction.

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Speaker 3: We have done an extraordinary amount of work carrying through

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Speaker 3: what President Trump started with the Abraham Accords to get

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Speaker 3: normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which would be the

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Speaker 3: biggest game changer in the region.

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Speaker 1: All of that is.

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Speaker 3: Ready to be handed over to the new administration and

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Speaker 3: hopefully they'll carry.

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Speaker 1: The ball forward. You mentioned that normalization deal.

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Speaker 2: It with something this administration invested a lot in before

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Speaker 2: October seventh. Clear that the conversations has been going on.

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Speaker 2: There has been reporting that we're close to a breakthrough.

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Speaker 2: There can you shed any lightnsert where those conversations stand today.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things I look back on is

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Speaker 3: on October tenth, a year ago, I was supposed to

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Speaker 3: go to Saudi Arabia and to Israel to work on

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Speaker 3: the Palestinian component of this normalization deal. And of course

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Speaker 3: that trip didn't happen because of October seven. But even

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Speaker 3: with Gaza, we've continued these conversations. We've continued this work,

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Speaker 3: and in terms of the agreements that are needed between

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Speaker 3: the United States and Saudi Arabia, they're pretty much ready

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Speaker 3: to go, and that would then trigger the normalization between

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Speaker 3: Israel and Saudi Arabia. But two things are required to

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Speaker 3: actually get that done. One is an end to the

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Speaker 3: conflict in Gaza. And two is having a credible pathway

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Speaker 3: toward a Palestinian state. As I said, all of the

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Speaker 3: work's been done, and hopefully we'll get to that end

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Speaker 3: of conflict in Gaza. They'll have to engage the conversation

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Speaker 3: on answering the Palestinian question, but the work is there,

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Speaker 3: and if that happens, this transforms the region.

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Speaker 1: You have Israel that's integrated in the region.

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Speaker 3: There's a common security architecture to deal with Iran. We

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Speaker 3: saw that something we put together embryonically. When Iran attacked

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Speaker 3: Israel in an unprecedented way direct attack, we not only

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Speaker 3: for the first time, participated in Israel's active defense, we

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Speaker 3: brought other countries, including countries in the region, into that defense.

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Speaker 3: So you can see what's possible in the future. But

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Speaker 3: it requires an end of the conflict in Gaza, and

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Speaker 3: it requires moving forward on the Palestinians coming up.

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Speaker 2: As President Elect Trump readies for his return to the

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Speaker 2: White House, he and his closest aids are already meeting

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Speaker 2: with world leaders to discuss policy. How the Secretary of

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Speaker 2: State is navigating that After the break On Wednesday, Secretary

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Speaker 2: of State Anthony Blincoln sat down with Senator Marco Rubio,

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Speaker 2: who is President elect Trump's pick to succeed Blincoln. I

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Speaker 2: asked the secretary how he's navigating. What is a unique transition.

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Speaker 2: You've said of this new administration. You want to pass

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Speaker 2: the baton to them so they can get off and running.

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Speaker 2: Forgive me, but it does seem like they are off

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Speaker 2: and running. You had President elect Trump meeting in France

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Speaker 2: with President Zelensky, President Matcron, He's met with Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: Trudeau in Florida. His destiny to be the Special Onboard

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Speaker 2: in the Middle East has been in the region as well.

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Speaker 2: Does that complicate the work that you are doing.

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Speaker 3: Look, there's one president at a time, one administration at

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Speaker 3: a time. But we're in very close contact with the

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Speaker 3: incoming administration. I spent a couple of.

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Speaker 2: Tiles Field novel though, I mean we used to talk

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Speaker 2: about the logan action. It does feel like these are

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Speaker 2: different circumstances.

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Speaker 1: Look, I think are few things.

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Speaker 3: I think there are a few things going on. First,

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Speaker 3: as I said, we've been in very close contact with

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Speaker 3: the incoming administration. I've spent a lot of time with

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Speaker 3: Senator Rubio and Jake Salton, the National Security advisor with

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Speaker 3: Mike Waltz, his successor, we've had very good not only conversations,

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Speaker 3: but we're trying to make sure that we're as coordinated

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Speaker 3: as possible so that they know what we're looking at.

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Speaker 1: Doing in the remaining time that we have.

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Speaker 3: I want to be able to hand off to the

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Speaker 3: incoming administration the best possible hand to play in all

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Speaker 3: of these areas, in all of these challenges. Because the

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Speaker 3: world doesn't stop just because we're in a political transition.

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Speaker 3: It's also normal that countries around the world want to

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Speaker 3: hear from the incoming administration. They want to know what

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Speaker 3: they can expect so they can get ready for that.

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Speaker 3: As long as we're communicating closely, which we are, and

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Speaker 3: as long as we're working to again try to make

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Speaker 3: this handoff as effective as possible so that they can

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Speaker 3: get moving on the run because there's really no time

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Speaker 3: to wait, then I think that's a good thing.

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Speaker 2: Two more questions, the first of which is about Ukraine

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Speaker 2: at this stage. What you think Vladimir Putin is fighting for.

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Speaker 2: Is it to keep the land that he's taken, Is

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Speaker 2: it with the hope that he could get more land,

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Speaker 2: or it's it about something else.

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Speaker 1: Entirely.

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Speaker 2: Is it about Ukraine's sovereignty its relationship with the West,

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Speaker 2: And if it's the latter, how does that complicate potential

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Speaker 2: piece talks when indeed they happen.

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Speaker 3: Look, Putin's had an imperial project for a long time,

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Speaker 3: and of course first it started really to home with

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Speaker 3: Chechnya many years ago, Georgia two thousand and eight, Ukraine

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Speaker 3: the first go round twenty fourteen, Ukraine, the second go

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Speaker 3: around twenty twenty two. And in his mind is the

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Speaker 3: recreation of a greater Russia. And you don't have to

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Speaker 3: believe me, just read what he said. He's been very

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Speaker 3: clear about it. He's failed in Ukraine. That proposition that

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Speaker 3: he could erase Ukraine from the map subsume it into

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Speaker 3: Russia has failed. And that's a result of the incredible

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Speaker 3: courage of the Ukrainian people. But it's also a result

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Speaker 3: of the dozens of countries that we rallied in defense

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Speaker 3: of Ukraine to make sure that they could repel this

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Speaker 3: Russian aggression, prevent the takeover.

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Speaker 1: If Kiev push the Russians back.

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Speaker 3: And now you have a front line that moves a

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Speaker 3: little bit, but probably won't move that much from where

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Speaker 3: it is It would be good, I think if we

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Speaker 3: could get to a ceasefire, if that's where the Ukrainians

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Speaker 3: want to go. But it has to be one that

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Speaker 3: is just and durable, and for it to be durable,

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Speaker 3: you've got to have some assurances built in that Russia

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Speaker 3: can't simply rest refit and then reattack. The pressure that

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Speaker 3: we've exerted with sanctions, with export controls is building and building.

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Speaker 3: It's a heavier and heavier weight on Russia. Everything that

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Speaker 3: they try to do takes longer, it's harder to do

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Speaker 3: and costs more. I think he wants to get out

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Speaker 3: from under that yoke, but I don't think he's going

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Speaker 3: to give up on his imperial ambitions. And so you

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Speaker 3: have to make sure that whatever results, if President Trump

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Speaker 3: is able to bring this to a landing of some kind,

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Speaker 3: that it's one that will endure, and that means necessary

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Speaker 3: assurances that Ukraine has what it takes to deter future

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Speaker 3: Russian aggression.

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Speaker 2: Lastly, you are such a spokesman and evangelist for multilateralism.

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Speaker 2: You talk a lot about the importance of alliances, and

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Speaker 2: we're at this prespice where the incoming administration seems to

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Speaker 2: give that less difference than you. How confident are you

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Speaker 2: in the endurance of alliances? Be they sort of the

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Speaker 2: big multilateral ones G seven, G twenty, smaller groups that

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Speaker 2: you've sort of fostered and grown over the course, if

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Speaker 2: you're a tenure, are they well buffetted.

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Speaker 1: Enough that you think they'll continue no matter what.

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Speaker 3: Look, I believe as long as they continue to demonstrate

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Speaker 3: their value to the United States, they will endure, and

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Speaker 3: I'm convinced.

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Speaker 1: That they will.

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Speaker 3: Look, there are two things that we know, or at

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Speaker 3: least that I believe, and that we've tried to put

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Speaker 3: into practice. One is, there's no substitute for US engagement

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Speaker 3: in US leadership around the world, because if we're not

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Speaker 3: doing it, chances are someone else is, and probably not

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Speaker 3: in a way that reflects our own interests, our own values,

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Speaker 3: or maybe just as bad no one is. And then

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Speaker 3: you get a vacuum. It's filled by bad things before

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Speaker 3: it's filled with good things, and inevitably those come back

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Speaker 3: to bite us. But the flip side of that coin

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Speaker 3: is just as important. Pretty much, everything that we're trying

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Speaker 3: to do around the world that benefits the American people

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Speaker 3: because that's our job, is better achieved if we're working

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Speaker 3: with others, if we're cooperating, If we're coordinating, even the

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Speaker 3: United States simply can't get the job done alone. And

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Speaker 3: that's where our alliances and partnerships come in. You know,

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Speaker 3: It's interesting to me we've built over the last four

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Speaker 3: years much greater convergence among European countries, countries in the

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Speaker 3: Indo Pacific, and US on how to approach the challenges

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Speaker 3: posed by China, probably the most consequential relationship that we have,

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Speaker 3: and many of these countries have.

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Speaker 1: We're now on the same page.

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Speaker 3: And the reason I know that that's working is every

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Speaker 3: time I meet with my Chinese counterpart, Longe, he spends

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Speaker 3: usually half an hour forty five minutes at the top

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Speaker 3: of the meeting complaining about everything we've done to align

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Speaker 3: these countries. And it's not about containing China or holding

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Speaker 3: China down. It's about dealing with the real problems that

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Speaker 3: we have with China and that are affecting the lives.

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Speaker 1: Of our people.

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Speaker 3: We're much more effective in changing the policies that a

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Speaker 3: country like China pursues, or any other country with whom

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Speaker 3: we have a challenging relationship.

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Speaker 1: I think that value proposition is real, and it's clear.

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Speaker 3: And last thing, you look at what we've been able

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Speaker 3: to do in Ukraine. Yes, we've devoted a lot of

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Speaker 3: resources to that, about one hundred billion dollars, although most

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Speaker 3: of that was spent in the United States to build

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Speaker 3: the necessary weapons for Ukraine, good American jobs.

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Speaker 1: As a result, we've done hundred million dollars.

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Speaker 3: Our allies and partners one hundred and fifty billion dollars.

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Speaker 3: We've had real burden sharing. They've picked up the load,

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Speaker 3: and I think as we go forward, we've now have

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Speaker 3: allies and partners doing more than they've ever done before.

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Speaker 3: As long as other countries are demonstrating that they're picking

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Speaker 3: up their share, I think these alliances and partnerships will endure.

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Speaker 3: It's our comparative advantage. We're the only country in the

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Speaker 3: world that has these alliances and partnerships that are voluntary,

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Speaker 3: that are based on shared interests, shared values.

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Speaker 1: So for me, it's.

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Speaker 3: Really been one of the secrets to our success around

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Speaker 3: the world, and I think incoming administration hopefully we'll see

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Speaker 3: that and continue that.

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Speaker 1: Thank you again, nice to speak with you, very few

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Speaker 1: with you. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: This is the big take from Bloomberg News I'm David Gurat.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode is produced by Alex tie. It was edited

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Speaker 2: by Nick Wadams and our senior producer Naomi Shavin.

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Speaker 1: It was fact checked by Adrian A.

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Speaker 2: Tapia and mixed and sound designed by Alex Sagura.

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Speaker 1: Our senior editor.

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Speaker 2: Is Elizabeth Ponso, Our executive producer is Nicole Beemster. Board

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Speaker 2: Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. If you liked

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Speaker 2: M