1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,516 --> 00:00:23,316 Speaker 2: Starting today, if you don't live in New York State, 3 00:00:23,316 --> 00:00:25,196 Speaker 2: you're gonna have to pay a mandatory entrance fee to 4 00:00:25,276 --> 00:00:26,676 Speaker 2: visit the Metropolitan Museum. 5 00:00:27,036 --> 00:00:31,396 Speaker 3: Eyewitness News ABC seven, New York, March first, twenty eighteen. 6 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:35,116 Speaker 2: The new policy was announced in January, but it took 7 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:39,036 Speaker 2: effect today. Adults who do not have ID proving that 8 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:41,156 Speaker 2: they live right here in New York have to pay 9 00:00:41,156 --> 00:00:44,196 Speaker 2: twenty five dollars. Seniors will pay seventeen dollars. 10 00:00:44,756 --> 00:00:47,396 Speaker 3: If I had to pinpoint the beginning of my obsession 11 00:00:47,396 --> 00:00:50,996 Speaker 3: with art museums, it would be the moment the Metropolitan Museum, 12 00:00:51,236 --> 00:00:54,276 Speaker 3: one of the greatest museums in the world, decided to 13 00:00:54,396 --> 00:00:58,876 Speaker 3: impose entrance fees. It was a difficult time for the institution. 14 00:00:59,396 --> 00:01:02,436 Speaker 3: They had a forty million dollar deficit. They got rid 15 00:01:02,436 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 3: of ninety employees, Exhibitions were canceled, there was a shakeup 16 00:01:07,036 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 3: in the leadership. Up and down the Upper East Side 17 00:01:09,596 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 3: of Manhattan, there was hand ringing and a great gnashing 18 00:01:13,036 --> 00:01:17,356 Speaker 3: of teeth. I remember one New York Times headline from 19 00:01:17,356 --> 00:01:22,956 Speaker 3: that time, is the met Museum a great institution in decline. 20 00:01:23,156 --> 00:01:27,196 Speaker 3: That was followed by one expression of anguish after another, 21 00:01:27,676 --> 00:01:31,196 Speaker 3: including this from the former chairman of the METS Drawings 22 00:01:31,276 --> 00:01:36,436 Speaker 3: and Print Department. To have inherited a museum as strong 23 00:01:36,476 --> 00:01:39,236 Speaker 3: as the MET was ten years ago, with a great 24 00:01:39,476 --> 00:01:42,916 Speaker 3: curatorial staff, and to have it be what it is 25 00:01:42,996 --> 00:01:49,236 Speaker 3: today is unimaginable. Well exactly because for the life of me, 26 00:01:49,636 --> 00:01:53,356 Speaker 3: I couldn't imagine how it was. The MET was crying poverty. 27 00:01:53,876 --> 00:01:56,156 Speaker 3: I mean, they have one of the largest and most 28 00:01:56,276 --> 00:02:00,956 Speaker 3: valuable art collections in the world one point five million objects. 29 00:02:01,316 --> 00:02:03,836 Speaker 3: What's all that art worth? I don't know, one hundred 30 00:02:03,836 --> 00:02:07,236 Speaker 3: billion dollars more. The MET might be the richest non 31 00:02:07,316 --> 00:02:11,476 Speaker 3: profit institution in human history. All they would have to 32 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:14,756 Speaker 3: do is pick a couple things off the shelf and 33 00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:17,756 Speaker 3: then never see a deficit again. This is like Jeff 34 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:21,116 Speaker 3: Bezos firing the gardener because he's out of cash. Just 35 00:02:21,156 --> 00:02:24,356 Speaker 3: go to the ATM, Jeff. But they couldn't do it. 36 00:02:25,036 --> 00:02:27,636 Speaker 3: They would rather fire people and make a family of 37 00:02:27,676 --> 00:02:30,196 Speaker 3: four cough up to one hundred dollars at the gate 38 00:02:30,756 --> 00:02:33,236 Speaker 3: than even think of parting with a single one of 39 00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:39,596 Speaker 3: their possessions. Why it's a puzzle, And it is for 40 00:02:39,676 --> 00:02:48,796 Speaker 3: puzzles like this that we have revisionist history. My name 41 00:02:48,876 --> 00:02:51,796 Speaker 3: is Malcolm Gladwell, you're listening to my podcast about Things 42 00:02:51,876 --> 00:02:57,316 Speaker 3: Overlooked and Misunderstood. This is our fifth season, five years 43 00:02:57,356 --> 00:03:02,636 Speaker 3: of digression, high dudgeon, needless provocation, and my absolute favorite 44 00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:08,276 Speaker 3: grand unified theories. In this season of Revision's History, I 45 00:03:08,316 --> 00:03:11,876 Speaker 3: want to explore or our emotional attachment to objects and 46 00:03:11,996 --> 00:03:15,516 Speaker 3: rituals and tradition and the way in which those attachments 47 00:03:15,636 --> 00:03:19,596 Speaker 3: betray us. And in this first episode, I would like 48 00:03:19,636 --> 00:03:22,876 Speaker 3: to make sense of the strange relationship of the art 49 00:03:22,916 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 3: world to art. 50 00:03:39,316 --> 00:03:42,156 Speaker 4: During his thirty one year tenure as director of the 51 00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:46,476 Speaker 4: Metropolitan Museum of Art, Philippe de Montebello, the mets eighth 52 00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:50,876 Speaker 4: and longest serving director, guided the acquisition of more than 53 00:03:51,036 --> 00:03:53,196 Speaker 4: eighty four thousand works of art. 54 00:03:54,036 --> 00:03:56,756 Speaker 3: I found this in a video series called Great Museums. 55 00:03:57,196 --> 00:04:01,116 Speaker 3: An episode from twenty ten, An Acquiring Mind, lots of 56 00:04:01,156 --> 00:04:05,156 Speaker 3: wide angle shots of marble floored galleries in guilt frame paintings. 57 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:09,316 Speaker 3: NPR Susan Stamberg narrates over what sounds like an orchestra 58 00:04:09,836 --> 00:04:10,716 Speaker 3: right there on the set. 59 00:04:11,036 --> 00:04:15,196 Speaker 4: Born in France, educated at Harvard in nineteen sixty three, 60 00:04:15,276 --> 00:04:18,236 Speaker 4: de monte Bello brought a background in European page. 61 00:04:18,236 --> 00:04:20,716 Speaker 3: The film runs for an hour. It's about the most 62 00:04:20,796 --> 00:04:24,836 Speaker 3: famous director of the Met, Philippe de Montebello, descendant of 63 00:04:24,876 --> 00:04:28,516 Speaker 3: a noble French family. In particular, it's about how much 64 00:04:28,516 --> 00:04:31,476 Speaker 3: stuff Philippe de Montebello bought during his thirty one year 65 00:04:31,516 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 3: tenure as head of the Met. Tapestries, African sculptures, a 66 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:39,396 Speaker 3: fabulous premiere, an evening gown that's to die for. He 67 00:04:39,396 --> 00:04:41,116 Speaker 3: even bought things he didn't want to buy. 68 00:04:41,716 --> 00:04:46,316 Speaker 2: Philippe has been an incredible director for supporting the acquisitions 69 00:04:46,316 --> 00:04:49,796 Speaker 2: of objects of great quality from across the globe. 70 00:04:49,956 --> 00:04:53,676 Speaker 3: It goes on and on about the acquiring, to the 71 00:04:53,676 --> 00:04:56,796 Speaker 3: point where you wonder, or at least I wondered, Wait, 72 00:04:57,476 --> 00:04:59,156 Speaker 3: I thought you didn't have any money. 73 00:04:59,596 --> 00:05:05,756 Speaker 4: Today, nearly two million objects, comprising an encyclopedic treasury of 74 00:05:05,836 --> 00:05:09,076 Speaker 4: world art are contained in the Met's growing color. 75 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:13,196 Speaker 3: Apparently I was wrong in the numbers. Not one point 76 00:05:13,236 --> 00:05:17,796 Speaker 3: five million objects, two million objects. Let me give you 77 00:05:17,836 --> 00:05:22,076 Speaker 3: an example, maybe my favorite example of this weirdness in 78 00:05:22,116 --> 00:05:24,996 Speaker 3: the art world. It has to do with a public 79 00:05:25,036 --> 00:05:27,916 Speaker 3: hearing held in July of nineteen ninety one at the 80 00:05:27,916 --> 00:05:33,636 Speaker 3: Financial Accounting Standards Board Better known as the FASB. The 81 00:05:33,676 --> 00:05:37,556 Speaker 3: FASB is the Vatican of the American accounting profession, and 82 00:05:37,596 --> 00:05:40,996 Speaker 3: this was one of the occasional open sessions the FASB 83 00:05:41,156 --> 00:05:44,036 Speaker 3: holds in order to share with the broader American public 84 00:05:44,356 --> 00:05:49,036 Speaker 3: subjects of grave concern to the accounting universe. The venue 85 00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:54,796 Speaker 3: was the FASB's Norwalk, Connecticut headquarters. The subject accounting for 86 00:05:54,916 --> 00:05:59,316 Speaker 3: contributions received and contributions made, and capitalization of works of art, 87 00:05:59,356 --> 00:06:01,436 Speaker 3: historical treasures, and similar assets. 88 00:06:02,996 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 1: The room was packed. 89 00:06:04,636 --> 00:06:07,476 Speaker 3: They videotaped the proceedings so people could watch in the 90 00:06:07,516 --> 00:06:11,476 Speaker 3: overflow room. I've read a transcript of the hearing, all 91 00:06:11,556 --> 00:06:14,556 Speaker 3: nine hundred and forty seven pages of it, and I 92 00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:17,676 Speaker 3: would like to direct your attention to a particular exchange. 93 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:22,516 Speaker 3: It was between the then chairman of the FASB, Dennis Beresford, 94 00:06:22,876 --> 00:06:29,756 Speaker 3: and a man named C. Douglas Dylan. Dylan was a 95 00:06:29,796 --> 00:06:34,156 Speaker 3: tall man, gray suit patrician a certain stature. He was 96 00:06:34,236 --> 00:06:37,196 Speaker 3: former director of Dylan Red and Co. The Wall Street 97 00:06:37,196 --> 00:06:40,196 Speaker 3: firm founded by his father, and was possessed of maybe 98 00:06:40,236 --> 00:06:44,356 Speaker 3: the greatest resume in mid century America. U S Treasury 99 00:06:44,436 --> 00:06:48,036 Speaker 3: Secretary for much of the nineteen sixties, Ambassador to France, 100 00:06:48,476 --> 00:06:51,996 Speaker 3: chair of the Brookings Foundation, President of the Harvard Board 101 00:06:52,036 --> 00:06:55,676 Speaker 3: of Overseers, a close friend of John Rockefeller the third, 102 00:06:56,116 --> 00:07:01,316 Speaker 3: a world class collector of Impressionist art, and, most relevant 103 00:07:01,316 --> 00:07:04,676 Speaker 3: for the purposes of the hearing that day, chairman of 104 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:09,556 Speaker 3: the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. The 105 00:07:09,636 --> 00:07:14,836 Speaker 3: American Establishment sent its biggest gun to confront the FASB 106 00:07:15,516 --> 00:07:19,236 Speaker 3: over the agency's proposal to change the rules surrounding the 107 00:07:19,276 --> 00:07:23,196 Speaker 3: accounting for contributions received and contributions made, and capitalization of 108 00:07:23,236 --> 00:07:27,596 Speaker 3: works of art, historical treasures, and similar assets. The accountants 109 00:07:27,756 --> 00:07:30,636 Speaker 3: wanted the art world to follow the same accounting rules 110 00:07:30,676 --> 00:07:36,756 Speaker 3: as other businesses. Dylan versus Dennis Beresford, chairman of the FASB, 111 00:07:37,516 --> 00:07:40,556 Speaker 3: member of the American Accounting Hall of Fame and the 112 00:07:40,556 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 3: Financial Executive's International Hall of Fame. Way back on day 113 00:07:46,236 --> 00:07:49,116 Speaker 3: one of the proceedings in question, Beresford had made a 114 00:07:49,196 --> 00:07:51,716 Speaker 3: plane that he wasn't going to stand for any nonsense. 115 00:07:52,476 --> 00:07:52,796 Speaker 1: So C. 116 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 3: Douglas Dillon was restrained in his objections. Gracious, I'm going 117 00:07:57,876 --> 00:08:00,796 Speaker 3: to guess this was his first visit to Norwalk, Connecticut. 118 00:08:01,836 --> 00:08:04,796 Speaker 3: The room must have been hushed right. I mean, it's C. 119 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:09,916 Speaker 3: Douglas freaking Dylan. He does a little preamble careful explains 120 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:13,476 Speaker 3: how outraged the MET is at the intrusion of accountants 121 00:08:13,556 --> 00:08:17,476 Speaker 3: into their business, launches into a vivid description of the 122 00:08:17,476 --> 00:08:21,116 Speaker 3: extraordinary size of the METS collection. And then, and this 123 00:08:21,196 --> 00:08:24,596 Speaker 3: is maybe my favorite part of the entire nine hundred 124 00:08:24,596 --> 00:08:29,756 Speaker 3: and forty seven page transcript, Dylan says, quote, we have 125 00:08:30,036 --> 00:08:33,436 Speaker 3: a new curator of Islamic art, been with us for 126 00:08:33,516 --> 00:08:37,036 Speaker 3: a couple years now. We have certainly the greatest collection 127 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:40,676 Speaker 3: of Islamic rugs in the Western Hemisphere, one of the 128 00:08:40,876 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 3: two or three in the world. He has never been 129 00:08:44,556 --> 00:08:48,036 Speaker 3: able to even see that collection because so much of 130 00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:51,396 Speaker 3: it is in storage and is so difficult to get out, 131 00:08:51,956 --> 00:08:55,796 Speaker 3: so costly and time consuming. That he knows by the 132 00:08:55,876 --> 00:08:58,956 Speaker 3: records what they are, but he hasn't been able to 133 00:08:58,956 --> 00:09:03,956 Speaker 3: look at them. C. Douglas Dillon is speaking to an 134 00:09:03,996 --> 00:09:08,516 Speaker 3: audience of accountants. Accountants are people who like to count things. 135 00:09:09,116 --> 00:09:11,796 Speaker 3: More than that, they are people who believe, as a 136 00:09:11,836 --> 00:09:16,396 Speaker 3: matter of deep professional principle, that everything can be counted. 137 00:09:16,876 --> 00:09:19,476 Speaker 3: And they have proposed that the art world agreed to 138 00:09:19,516 --> 00:09:23,436 Speaker 3: start counting things like everyone else, and in response, this 139 00:09:23,596 --> 00:09:27,556 Speaker 3: pillar of the American establishment shows up in suburban Connecticut 140 00:09:27,636 --> 00:09:32,076 Speaker 3: and says, we can't count our things. There's just too 141 00:09:32,116 --> 00:09:35,196 Speaker 3: many of them. They're all buried somewhere in storage. To 142 00:09:35,236 --> 00:09:37,756 Speaker 3: give you an example, the guy who was responsible for 143 00:09:37,796 --> 00:09:41,516 Speaker 3: our Islamic rug collection, maybe the greatest Islamic rug collection 144 00:09:41,596 --> 00:09:44,156 Speaker 3: in the world. Mind you, has never even seen our 145 00:09:44,196 --> 00:09:48,556 Speaker 3: Islamic rug collection. I have to say, this is where 146 00:09:48,556 --> 00:09:55,556 Speaker 3: the art world loses me. So I called up the 147 00:09:55,556 --> 00:09:59,556 Speaker 3: staffer at the FSB who organized that hearing all those 148 00:09:59,596 --> 00:10:02,556 Speaker 3: long years ago. His name is Ron Bassio. 149 00:10:03,156 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 1: Just retired. 150 00:10:04,476 --> 00:10:06,956 Speaker 5: This is a good exercise for a seventy three year 151 00:10:06,996 --> 00:10:08,956 Speaker 5: old to test the memory to go back. 152 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:12,356 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm very impressed. 153 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:16,996 Speaker 3: Bossio returned to his old offices at FASB headquarters to 154 00:10:17,036 --> 00:10:19,516 Speaker 3: take my call so he would have access to the 155 00:10:19,556 --> 00:10:23,756 Speaker 3: critical documents. So I'm just going to pull up the 156 00:10:23,796 --> 00:10:27,156 Speaker 3: financial statements of the Metropolitan Museum and I want to 157 00:10:27,316 --> 00:10:29,676 Speaker 3: just want to very briefly walk through. 158 00:10:31,076 --> 00:10:33,596 Speaker 5: I was just wondering if they could be googled up 159 00:10:33,636 --> 00:10:34,316 Speaker 5: here as well. 160 00:10:34,436 --> 00:10:38,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's on his computer, I'm online. We're downloading the 161 00:10:38,796 --> 00:10:43,396 Speaker 3: Metropolitan Museum of Arts twenty nineteen annual report and locating 162 00:10:43,796 --> 00:10:48,236 Speaker 3: the crucial part the statements of financial position. Beginning on 163 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:54,116 Speaker 3: page forty four, I have cash receivable for investments sold 164 00:10:54,836 --> 00:11:01,036 Speaker 3: retail inventories. These are all straightforward accounts receivable, straightforward contributions 165 00:11:01,116 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 3: receivable and makes the pledges. Financial statements for almost any 166 00:11:06,876 --> 00:11:10,476 Speaker 3: organization look pretty much the same. You start by listing 167 00:11:10,596 --> 00:11:15,436 Speaker 3: your assets, everything of value. Then you list your liabilities loans, mortgages, 168 00:11:15,516 --> 00:11:18,796 Speaker 3: pension obligations. Then you balance them. That's why it's called 169 00:11:18,836 --> 00:11:22,196 Speaker 3: a balance sheet. Bossio and I are going down the 170 00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:25,716 Speaker 3: list of the METS assets. Then there's investments, which I'm 171 00:11:25,756 --> 00:11:29,076 Speaker 3: assuming is the endowment three point se could. 172 00:11:28,876 --> 00:11:32,796 Speaker 5: Be endowment, or it could be just investments in total. 173 00:11:32,836 --> 00:11:34,876 Speaker 5: They may not all be part of the endowment. 174 00:11:34,996 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 3: Then I have fixed assets three hundred and ninety three million, 175 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:41,636 Speaker 3: and then I have collections. 176 00:11:40,996 --> 00:11:41,716 Speaker 1: And I have nothing. 177 00:11:42,956 --> 00:11:46,156 Speaker 3: It's supposed to be a precise accounting of everything that 178 00:11:46,236 --> 00:11:49,596 Speaker 3: MET has of value, the amount the museum made last 179 00:11:49,636 --> 00:11:52,436 Speaker 3: year from selling stocks, the amount of cash it has 180 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 3: on hand, it's endowment, the amount is owed from various creditors, 181 00:11:56,396 --> 00:11:59,316 Speaker 3: the amount of god in gifts and donations, even the 182 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:03,316 Speaker 3: value of the inventory in its gift shop, everything, and 183 00:12:03,356 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 3: they add it all up, and they come up with 184 00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 3: a number total assets next to the line item entitled collections, 185 00:12:12,316 --> 00:12:15,236 Speaker 3: that is to say, the millions of unimaginably rare and 186 00:12:15,276 --> 00:12:18,996 Speaker 3: precious art objects owned by the museum. The eighteen van goes, 187 00:12:19,036 --> 00:12:22,596 Speaker 3: the forty six Picassos, the twenty Rembrandts. There is no 188 00:12:22,676 --> 00:12:27,316 Speaker 3: dollar figure, nothing, It's blank. All it says is see 189 00:12:27,316 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 3: note A. Okay, ah here it is note A in 190 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:38,836 Speaker 3: the appendix. It says, in conformity with accounting policies generally 191 00:12:38,876 --> 00:12:42,996 Speaker 3: followed by art museums, the value of the museum's collections 192 00:12:43,556 --> 00:12:47,116 Speaker 3: has been excluded from the statement of financial position. 193 00:12:48,276 --> 00:12:51,676 Speaker 1: Excluded. This is a. 194 00:12:51,636 --> 00:12:55,276 Speaker 3: Multi billion dollar organization with yes, billions and billions of 195 00:12:55,756 --> 00:12:58,956 Speaker 3: dollars in art, and it's none of it is listed 196 00:12:58,996 --> 00:13:02,756 Speaker 3: on there in a financial statement. This seems I don't 197 00:13:02,756 --> 00:13:04,636 Speaker 3: even understand how that started. 198 00:13:04,676 --> 00:13:07,556 Speaker 5: Well, that was your reaction is similar to the reaction 199 00:13:07,676 --> 00:13:09,076 Speaker 5: that some of our board members had. 200 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:13,236 Speaker 3: On top of that, it turns out that the met 201 00:13:13,276 --> 00:13:17,156 Speaker 3: would rather charge admission, cut exhibitions, and get rid of 202 00:13:17,276 --> 00:13:21,156 Speaker 3: ninety people than sell anything, even though they have so 203 00:13:21,276 --> 00:13:24,276 Speaker 3: many things like Islamic rugs that the guy running the 204 00:13:24,316 --> 00:13:27,196 Speaker 3: Islamic rug collection hasn't even seen any of his Islamic 205 00:13:27,276 --> 00:13:31,836 Speaker 3: rugs because they're all in storage somewhere. In fact, most 206 00:13:31,836 --> 00:13:35,716 Speaker 3: of the METS collection is in storage, huge football field 207 00:13:35,796 --> 00:13:39,916 Speaker 3: sized warehouses, presumably somewhere in New Jersey, full of stuff. 208 00:13:41,636 --> 00:13:44,716 Speaker 3: And when the FASB says, why don't you tell us, 209 00:13:45,116 --> 00:13:48,036 Speaker 3: like a normal institution, just how much your stuff is worth? 210 00:13:48,116 --> 00:13:49,156 Speaker 1: Because I don't know. 211 00:13:49,556 --> 00:13:51,836 Speaker 3: Maybe it would be easier to think rationally about how 212 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:54,996 Speaker 3: to run things if you knew that fact, the MET 213 00:13:55,076 --> 00:13:59,636 Speaker 3: goes crazy, dispatches c Douglas Dillon to Norwalk, Connecticut to 214 00:13:59,676 --> 00:14:03,036 Speaker 3: say never, not on my watch. We've never done that 215 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:05,236 Speaker 3: and we never will. 216 00:14:08,156 --> 00:14:12,516 Speaker 6: Yeah, this is unlike any other business. You're supposed to 217 00:14:12,556 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 6: carry assets at either book or market value, and you're 218 00:14:15,876 --> 00:14:19,916 Speaker 6: supposed to put them in your financial reports, and they don't. 219 00:14:20,396 --> 00:14:23,316 Speaker 3: This is Michael O'Hare, who teaches in the Business School 220 00:14:23,356 --> 00:14:27,476 Speaker 3: of Berkeley. If you ask anyone, anyone who knows the 221 00:14:27,556 --> 00:14:30,436 Speaker 3: way around a bounce sheet about the way museums record 222 00:14:30,516 --> 00:14:33,316 Speaker 3: their assets, you get the Michael O'Hare response. 223 00:14:34,036 --> 00:14:37,156 Speaker 6: I was talking about this at some conference in somebody 224 00:14:37,196 --> 00:14:40,676 Speaker 6: from an orchestra. Some financial person from an orchestra said, 225 00:14:40,836 --> 00:14:43,716 Speaker 6: wait a minute, you mean you buy a painting and 226 00:14:43,756 --> 00:14:48,436 Speaker 6: then it just disappears. And that's what happens. There's an 227 00:14:48,476 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 6: expense and then that's the last we hear about it 228 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:52,756 Speaker 6: in the financial records. 229 00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:54,436 Speaker 7: It's quite quite bizarre. 230 00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:57,596 Speaker 3: For the longest time, I would bore everyone I met 231 00:14:57,636 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 3: with how strange I found all this until one day 232 00:15:01,236 --> 00:15:04,116 Speaker 3: I was in Holland on my book tour. In Leiden, 233 00:15:04,556 --> 00:15:06,516 Speaker 3: out with a bunch of people in a bar, and 234 00:15:06,556 --> 00:15:08,836 Speaker 3: I told the group the story of the epic showdown 235 00:15:08,836 --> 00:15:13,196 Speaker 3: between Dennis Beresford and C. Douglas Dillon, and this one guy, 236 00:15:13,276 --> 00:15:19,076 Speaker 3: a philosopher, said, Oh, it's like Smog. Smog, the dragon 237 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:21,396 Speaker 3: from the Hobbit who sits on a mountain of treasure. 238 00:15:22,476 --> 00:15:25,716 Speaker 3: Smog doesn't want to use his gold, he doesn't wear 239 00:15:25,756 --> 00:15:28,676 Speaker 3: it out to dragons social events. He does not list 240 00:15:28,716 --> 00:15:32,476 Speaker 3: his holdings on his annual dragon financial statement. He just 241 00:15:32,516 --> 00:15:39,356 Speaker 3: wants to hoard it. And I'm like, oh, my god, Smog, Yes, 242 00:15:40,036 --> 00:15:42,236 Speaker 3: that explains everything. 243 00:15:44,036 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 8: There was an old dragon and a gray stone. His 244 00:15:47,036 --> 00:15:50,956 Speaker 8: red eyes blinked as he lay alone. His joy was dead, 245 00:15:51,076 --> 00:15:53,756 Speaker 8: and his youth spent. He was knobbed and wrinkled, and 246 00:15:53,796 --> 00:15:56,756 Speaker 8: his limbs bent in the long years to his gold chain, 247 00:15:57,876 --> 00:16:00,036 Speaker 8: his heart's furnished the fired Wayne. 248 00:16:02,236 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 3: This is J. R. R. Tolkien reading his poem The Horde. 249 00:16:07,116 --> 00:16:11,116 Speaker 8: To his belly slime gem stuck silver and gold with 250 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:11,836 Speaker 8: snuff and. 251 00:16:11,836 --> 00:16:18,236 Speaker 3: Lick to his belly's slime gems stuck thick. That's what 252 00:16:18,276 --> 00:16:20,756 Speaker 3: happens when a dragon sits on his treasure for too long, 253 00:16:23,156 --> 00:16:25,636 Speaker 3: and the stuff that couldn't fit under his belly the 254 00:16:25,716 --> 00:16:46,276 Speaker 3: dragon has buried deep inside his lair in storage. Following 255 00:16:46,316 --> 00:16:49,396 Speaker 3: that epiphany in the bar in Leiden, I resolved to 256 00:16:49,436 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 3: perform a field test of the hypothesis that art museums 257 00:16:53,116 --> 00:16:57,716 Speaker 3: are modern day versions of the dragon's smog. This was 258 00:16:57,916 --> 00:17:00,116 Speaker 3: a few months back. I was going to be in 259 00:17:00,156 --> 00:17:03,316 Speaker 3: Pittsburgh for another reason anyway, so I decided to pay 260 00:17:03,316 --> 00:17:07,356 Speaker 3: a visit to the Andy Warhol Museum, the largest museum 261 00:17:07,436 --> 00:17:11,556 Speaker 3: devoted to a single artist in North America. So I 262 00:17:11,556 --> 00:17:14,836 Speaker 3: made an appointment with the museum's curator of art, Jessica Beck, 263 00:17:15,396 --> 00:17:17,836 Speaker 3: and on a bright and cold morning in Pittsburgh, I 264 00:17:17,916 --> 00:17:20,636 Speaker 3: headed out to the city's North Shore neighborhood to the 265 00:17:20,676 --> 00:17:24,756 Speaker 3: beautiful old warehouse that holds the museum. I told Beck 266 00:17:25,076 --> 00:17:27,556 Speaker 3: I didn't want to see just the collection, the art 267 00:17:27,636 --> 00:17:31,316 Speaker 3: on the walls. I wanted to see everything. So Beck 268 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 3: graciously took me upstairs to the archives. Were just off 269 00:17:35,516 --> 00:17:39,796 Speaker 3: the staircase. There were dozens of brown cardboard boxes stacked 270 00:17:39,796 --> 00:17:40,636 Speaker 3: in neat piles. 271 00:17:41,836 --> 00:17:44,316 Speaker 1: Oh I see. Oh they're like. 272 00:17:44,796 --> 00:17:52,076 Speaker 9: They're covered in plastic and you know, kept behind glass. Yeah, 273 00:17:52,116 --> 00:17:54,076 Speaker 9: so this again is just a portion of on my 274 00:17:54,316 --> 00:17:54,796 Speaker 9: whole mother. 275 00:17:55,396 --> 00:17:56,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, wait, how many are here? 276 00:17:57,076 --> 00:18:03,956 Speaker 3: See the cardboard boxes? How's what Warhol called his time capsules. 277 00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:06,676 Speaker 3: There are six hundred and ten of them in total. 278 00:18:07,236 --> 00:18:09,996 Speaker 3: He would put things in these cardboard boxes boxes, tape 279 00:18:09,996 --> 00:18:13,356 Speaker 3: them shut, and set them aside. But he also had 280 00:18:13,396 --> 00:18:17,516 Speaker 3: other boxes, idea boxes what are called basement boxes. After 281 00:18:17,556 --> 00:18:20,956 Speaker 3: Warhol died, everything was shipped to Pittsburgh in an armada 282 00:18:20,956 --> 00:18:24,396 Speaker 3: of tractor trailers. The museum's best guess is that in 283 00:18:24,476 --> 00:18:28,236 Speaker 3: their archive they have at least five hundred thousand objects. 284 00:18:29,276 --> 00:18:31,276 Speaker 3: And so all the other boxes are behind our door. 285 00:18:31,596 --> 00:18:34,076 Speaker 10: Yeah, the rest of them are back there. 286 00:18:34,156 --> 00:18:37,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's not something I can see that I'm not. 287 00:18:37,996 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 11: Sure, and I can ask, we can find out because 288 00:18:40,916 --> 00:18:41,636 Speaker 11: I wasn't sure. 289 00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:46,276 Speaker 3: We found one of Warhol's time capsules that had been opened. 290 00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:49,756 Speaker 3: It was on the counter like a patient etherized upon 291 00:18:49,796 --> 00:18:51,876 Speaker 3: a table. We peered inside. 292 00:18:52,356 --> 00:18:55,716 Speaker 11: So this is his fifty suit, oh, nineteen fifty six, 293 00:18:55,916 --> 00:18:59,676 Speaker 11: Hong Kong, so his first trip to Asia. A lot 294 00:18:59,756 --> 00:19:01,556 Speaker 11: of them are closed right now because we're sort of 295 00:19:01,676 --> 00:19:05,396 Speaker 11: trying to figure out how to keep the objects from shifting. 296 00:19:06,996 --> 00:19:09,916 Speaker 3: I was suddenly curious. I wanted to see inside one 297 00:19:09,956 --> 00:19:12,956 Speaker 3: of the clothes boxes. Beck said she didn't have the 298 00:19:13,036 --> 00:19:15,756 Speaker 3: authority to open one up, but she made a few calls. 299 00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:17,396 Speaker 3: Finally she found someone. 300 00:19:17,596 --> 00:19:21,156 Speaker 1: Oh, okay, we have some Okay, that's take a look. 301 00:19:23,116 --> 00:19:25,756 Speaker 3: Another of the museum's staff hurried towards us. 302 00:19:26,156 --> 00:19:28,116 Speaker 11: This is John Malcome. 303 00:19:29,236 --> 00:19:31,676 Speaker 9: Yeah, so we're just gonna peek into one, just to 304 00:19:31,676 --> 00:19:32,396 Speaker 9: get a sense of what. 305 00:19:34,876 --> 00:19:35,716 Speaker 12: I was expressing. 306 00:19:35,796 --> 00:19:38,316 Speaker 11: You know that a lot of things are unfolders. 307 00:19:37,756 --> 00:19:37,916 Speaker 8: But. 308 00:19:39,756 --> 00:19:42,476 Speaker 13: So theyre's they're heavy. Yeah, they're you know, like weigh 309 00:19:42,556 --> 00:19:44,476 Speaker 13: forty or fifty pounds in some cases. 310 00:19:45,796 --> 00:19:48,636 Speaker 3: John positioned himself in front of the box and began 311 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:53,236 Speaker 3: opening it up. His movements were assured, practiced. 312 00:19:54,716 --> 00:19:57,756 Speaker 13: So, yeah, we treat the box itself like it's part 313 00:19:57,796 --> 00:20:00,916 Speaker 13: of an object, so that's why I wear the gloves. 314 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:05,356 Speaker 13: So these would have been boxes that Andy would have 315 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:10,156 Speaker 13: this assistant store things in. We've taken the time to 316 00:20:10,516 --> 00:20:15,436 Speaker 13: align the boxes with this folder type material so that 317 00:20:15,516 --> 00:20:19,596 Speaker 13: the objects in the box do not touch the acidic 318 00:20:19,636 --> 00:20:24,076 Speaker 13: cardboard of the original box, and they're kind of packaged. 319 00:20:24,236 --> 00:20:27,396 Speaker 13: Very objects in here packaged in it's sort of a 320 00:20:27,436 --> 00:20:33,876 Speaker 13: Tetris kind of way with folders that are marked in catalog. 321 00:20:34,996 --> 00:20:37,436 Speaker 1: So in its original form, this stuff would have been. 322 00:20:39,596 --> 00:20:41,116 Speaker 13: Just crammed in it. 323 00:20:41,276 --> 00:20:43,236 Speaker 3: I wasn't sure what I was expecting to see in 324 00:20:43,276 --> 00:20:50,036 Speaker 3: the box. Drawings, notes, makeshift sculptures, old canvases, the working 325 00:20:50,076 --> 00:20:50,956 Speaker 3: life of an artist. 326 00:20:52,076 --> 00:20:54,716 Speaker 13: So this is a pretty cool one. A lenticular of 327 00:20:54,876 --> 00:20:56,516 Speaker 13: the daisies. 328 00:20:57,796 --> 00:20:59,876 Speaker 3: Did he make that or is that just something you bought? 329 00:21:00,876 --> 00:21:02,076 Speaker 1: That was probably something he bought. 330 00:21:02,836 --> 00:21:05,076 Speaker 13: At best, he would have commissioned to be made. And 331 00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:07,036 Speaker 13: I think this was something that was purchased and then 332 00:21:07,396 --> 00:21:09,916 Speaker 13: used as an inspiration for us later work. And you 333 00:21:09,956 --> 00:21:11,956 Speaker 13: can smell it, right, do you do you smell? That's 334 00:21:12,196 --> 00:21:14,236 Speaker 13: that's the object itself off gassing. 335 00:21:16,716 --> 00:21:19,956 Speaker 3: The lenticular is one of those pieces of cardboard with 336 00:21:19,996 --> 00:21:22,356 Speaker 3: an image on it that's printed in such a way 337 00:21:22,396 --> 00:21:25,076 Speaker 3: that it looks like it has three dimensions. They're big 338 00:21:25,116 --> 00:21:27,796 Speaker 3: with children. This one had flowers on it. 339 00:21:28,556 --> 00:21:32,276 Speaker 13: Sometimes we find like notes like well the Andy's intent, 340 00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:37,116 Speaker 13: like why he was collecting this along with the objects that, 341 00:21:37,556 --> 00:21:39,596 Speaker 13: you know what we consider sort of source material. 342 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:43,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's got like six enticulars in that. 343 00:21:44,116 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 13: Yep, in that top folder. 344 00:21:47,396 --> 00:21:51,476 Speaker 3: Along with John continued digging deeper, deeper into the same box. 345 00:21:52,476 --> 00:21:55,196 Speaker 3: We found an old movie scrapboard that once belonged to 346 00:21:55,236 --> 00:21:57,996 Speaker 3: a fan somewhere, a bunch of eight by ten glossies 347 00:21:57,996 --> 00:22:01,636 Speaker 3: of movie stars Clark Gable, Bing Crosby, the seal Ball. 348 00:22:02,836 --> 00:22:04,036 Speaker 13: Do you want to go one more folder? 349 00:22:05,196 --> 00:22:07,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do. We'll do one last, one last folder. 350 00:22:07,436 --> 00:22:07,956 Speaker 1: It'll be cool. 351 00:22:08,436 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 3: So here as we looked at a piece of what 352 00:22:10,276 --> 00:22:13,436 Speaker 3: seemed like junk mail an invite to an art opening. 353 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:16,316 Speaker 13: So we even keep the paper clips. 354 00:22:17,116 --> 00:22:17,956 Speaker 3: I see. 355 00:22:18,956 --> 00:22:24,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's quite particulous. Yeah, everything is got, it's still 356 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:29,676 Speaker 1: are John started whispering. 357 00:22:30,356 --> 00:22:31,436 Speaker 3: It seemed appropriate. 358 00:22:32,516 --> 00:22:34,876 Speaker 1: We were deep in the dragon's lair. 359 00:22:40,556 --> 00:22:43,676 Speaker 3: Now, why are Andy Warhol's time capsules full of junk? 360 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:45,796 Speaker 3: Because he collected junk? 361 00:22:46,196 --> 00:22:49,156 Speaker 12: Well, if you wanted to meet Andy Warhol, all you 362 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:51,596 Speaker 12: had to do in the eighties was go to the 363 00:22:51,636 --> 00:22:55,636 Speaker 12: flea market, the sixth Avenue flea Market. 364 00:22:56,076 --> 00:22:59,716 Speaker 3: I'm in New York talking with Simon Dunan writer fashionista. 365 00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:03,756 Speaker 12: In fact, I just would searched flea market in the 366 00:23:03,796 --> 00:23:07,036 Speaker 12: Warhol diaries, and it comes up about twelve times, because 367 00:23:07,036 --> 00:23:11,596 Speaker 12: he's always going to coming from blah blah blah. 368 00:23:11,876 --> 00:23:13,916 Speaker 3: I've known Simon ever since he wrote a book called 369 00:23:13,956 --> 00:23:17,996 Speaker 3: Eccentric Glamour years ago, which included chapters on Simone de 370 00:23:18,036 --> 00:23:23,596 Speaker 3: Beauvoir till the Swinton, the Supermodel, Immon, and Me, which 371 00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:28,236 Speaker 3: remains the most preposterously inaccurate but nonetheless deeply flattering thing 372 00:23:28,356 --> 00:23:30,316 Speaker 3: anyone has ever written about me. 373 00:23:31,276 --> 00:23:34,316 Speaker 1: I love Simon Douna. Anyway. 374 00:23:34,596 --> 00:23:37,836 Speaker 3: Back in the day, Simon knew Andy Warhol and the 375 00:23:37,876 --> 00:23:39,396 Speaker 3: flea market where he hung out. 376 00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:44,596 Speaker 12: It was a protean fleamark. He kept growing, expanding, retreating 377 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:48,036 Speaker 12: anytime there was a new law available. The flea market 378 00:23:48,236 --> 00:23:52,876 Speaker 12: expanded and it was a significant social scene. Like I 379 00:23:52,916 --> 00:23:57,196 Speaker 12: remember seeing Katherine Deneuve there and it was just a 380 00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,396 Speaker 12: place that you went if you were in New York. 381 00:23:59,676 --> 00:24:02,956 Speaker 12: It was a way of you know, checking everybody out, 382 00:24:03,276 --> 00:24:04,436 Speaker 12: meeting your friends. 383 00:24:05,236 --> 00:24:09,236 Speaker 3: We were in Simon's apartment and impossibly sheep worn of rooms. 384 00:24:09,716 --> 00:24:11,796 Speaker 12: I could walk you around and show you many things 385 00:24:11,796 --> 00:24:15,796 Speaker 12: that Jonathan and I or I myself bought at the 386 00:24:15,996 --> 00:24:19,156 Speaker 12: six seven and flea market. That bust of Michael Jackson, 387 00:24:19,196 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 12: which people think is that Jeff Coons was ten bucks 388 00:24:23,316 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 12: at the flea. 389 00:24:23,876 --> 00:24:29,636 Speaker 3: Market, Po, Jeff good Have you told Jeff Goods? Simon 390 00:24:29,676 --> 00:24:33,476 Speaker 3: didn't found treasure at the flea market. Everyone did, but 391 00:24:33,556 --> 00:24:36,396 Speaker 3: Warhol treated his treasure a little differently. 392 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:41,996 Speaker 12: When Andy Warhol died, it emerged that he had not 393 00:24:42,196 --> 00:24:44,596 Speaker 12: unpacked most of this stuff that he'd got at the 394 00:24:44,676 --> 00:24:48,076 Speaker 12: flea market. There were these stories, I think in Vanity 395 00:24:48,196 --> 00:24:51,836 Speaker 12: Fair about his house packed with shopping bags that he'd 396 00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:55,196 Speaker 12: gotten at the flea market. When he bought his Russell 397 00:24:55,276 --> 00:25:00,356 Speaker 12: Right china, he collected. He collected those cookie jars famously. 398 00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:05,036 Speaker 12: He would buy those toysher chocolates. He was obsessed with them, 399 00:25:05,076 --> 00:25:07,876 Speaker 12: but he would chew them and spit them out, you know, 400 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:12,876 Speaker 12: because he was was very concerned about keeping his trim 401 00:25:12,916 --> 00:25:17,036 Speaker 12: little figure. So the idea that he collected these big, 402 00:25:17,156 --> 00:25:20,996 Speaker 12: sort of rotund cookie jars to be stuffed with cookies. 403 00:25:21,236 --> 00:25:24,196 Speaker 12: It's kind of hilarious because he was sort of, you know, 404 00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:28,036 Speaker 12: always very conscious of his figure. 405 00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:33,676 Speaker 3: Andy Warhol was a hoarder, all the classic symptoms. Simon 406 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:36,516 Speaker 3: didn't used to head up the window dressing department at Barney's, 407 00:25:36,756 --> 00:25:39,276 Speaker 3: and he famously did an homage to Whirl after his 408 00:25:39,356 --> 00:25:42,236 Speaker 3: death entitled The Compulsive Collector. 409 00:25:42,636 --> 00:25:46,156 Speaker 12: We took the mannequin, dressed him in jeans, the blue blazer, 410 00:25:46,756 --> 00:25:49,516 Speaker 12: turtle neck, and then I just went and bought one 411 00:25:49,556 --> 00:25:52,876 Speaker 12: of those tacky Warhol wigs that you could get at 412 00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:56,796 Speaker 12: the Halloween store, put the glasses on him, and instantly 413 00:25:56,836 --> 00:26:01,236 Speaker 12: it became Andy, to the point where Pat Hackett, who 414 00:26:01,276 --> 00:26:05,676 Speaker 12: wrote the Warhol Diaries, was sort of you know, skipping 415 00:26:05,756 --> 00:26:09,996 Speaker 12: down Seventh Avenue and screeched to a she banged on 416 00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:12,196 Speaker 12: the winter. She said to me, I really had a 417 00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:14,916 Speaker 12: heart attack. I thought Andy'd come back from the dead. 418 00:26:16,396 --> 00:26:17,636 Speaker 12: I can show you the window. 419 00:26:18,796 --> 00:26:21,396 Speaker 3: Simon brought out a book filled with pictures of his 420 00:26:21,516 --> 00:26:22,596 Speaker 3: most famous windows. 421 00:26:22,876 --> 00:26:25,276 Speaker 1: Oh, this is fantastic, This is fantastic. 422 00:26:25,316 --> 00:26:26,916 Speaker 12: You can see it looks just like it. 423 00:26:26,956 --> 00:26:29,996 Speaker 3: Just like him, And all around the mannequin was stuff 424 00:26:30,836 --> 00:26:33,356 Speaker 3: the exact same kind of stuff that later found its 425 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:39,116 Speaker 3: way into the boxes at the Warhol Museum. The definition 426 00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:43,596 Speaker 3: of a collector is someone who collects objects discriminately, someone 427 00:26:43,636 --> 00:26:47,756 Speaker 3: who selects and chooses. But as Simon so nicely put it, 428 00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:53,916 Speaker 3: Andy Warhol was a compulsive collector. His collecting was indiscriminate. 429 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:58,276 Speaker 3: And what happens when he dies and his indiscriminate collection 430 00:26:58,676 --> 00:27:02,116 Speaker 3: passes into the hands of a museum. They don't edit 431 00:27:02,156 --> 00:27:05,876 Speaker 3: it or streamline it. They keep it exactly as it was, 432 00:27:06,436 --> 00:27:11,316 Speaker 3: hidden away behind locked doors. The Warhol Museum is an 433 00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:14,476 Speaker 3: indiscriminate collection of an indiscriminate collection. 434 00:27:15,236 --> 00:27:17,076 Speaker 10: The special thing about it, I think is that it 435 00:27:17,116 --> 00:27:20,516 Speaker 10: feels like it could be detritus in any other situation, right, 436 00:27:20,596 --> 00:27:25,676 Speaker 10: like remains of a day. Like there's, you know, the 437 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:29,156 Speaker 10: flight kit you would get on a first class international flight, 438 00:27:29,316 --> 00:27:33,036 Speaker 10: like the slippers, the vomit bag, the silverware from that 439 00:27:33,116 --> 00:27:35,516 Speaker 10: international flight, like in one of the time capsules. So 440 00:27:35,916 --> 00:27:40,316 Speaker 10: it's this like sense of Warhol when you're with the material. 441 00:27:40,316 --> 00:27:43,796 Speaker 10: But then again it's not, you know, I mean, we 442 00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:48,556 Speaker 10: even have the box after he died at the hospital 443 00:27:48,556 --> 00:27:51,396 Speaker 10: of his clothing and his final effects that were left 444 00:27:51,436 --> 00:27:54,276 Speaker 10: at the hospital. We have that box preserved as it 445 00:27:54,396 --> 00:27:57,996 Speaker 10: was picked up from the hospital, so it had his 446 00:27:58,156 --> 00:28:01,676 Speaker 10: jacket in it that he wore to the hospital for 447 00:28:01,796 --> 00:28:05,436 Speaker 10: that final visit. The backpack exactly how it was packed, 448 00:28:05,676 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 10: so it has like all of his classes and the 449 00:28:09,116 --> 00:28:11,796 Speaker 10: business card for his doctor in the front pocket. 450 00:28:13,436 --> 00:28:16,036 Speaker 3: Now, I don't mean to pick on the Warhol Museum. 451 00:28:16,516 --> 00:28:20,156 Speaker 3: This is what all art museums do. During his tenure 452 00:28:20,196 --> 00:28:25,116 Speaker 3: running the met, Philippe de Montebello acquired eighty four thousand objects, 453 00:28:25,716 --> 00:28:29,036 Speaker 3: the overwhelming majority of which were packed away in boxes 454 00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:31,876 Speaker 3: and sent to storage in New Jersey, never to be 455 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:36,476 Speaker 3: seen again. That's not any different from the mountain of 456 00:28:36,516 --> 00:28:49,356 Speaker 3: detritus in cardboard boxes upstairs at the Warhol Museum. Somewhere 457 00:28:49,396 --> 00:28:52,516 Speaker 3: in the United States, there are twin brothers. I don't 458 00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:55,116 Speaker 3: know precisely where they live, but in a big city. 459 00:28:55,196 --> 00:28:57,636 Speaker 3: Can you just describe them. They're not married. 460 00:28:57,676 --> 00:28:58,876 Speaker 7: I take it they're not married. 461 00:28:59,436 --> 00:29:02,436 Speaker 3: The psychologist Randy Frost, who worked closely with them for 462 00:29:02,516 --> 00:29:06,796 Speaker 3: some time, refers to them as Alvin and Jerry, both pseudonyms. 463 00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:11,556 Speaker 3: Born into a wealthy family, childhood prodigies, rumpled suits and 464 00:29:11,636 --> 00:29:12,236 Speaker 3: bow ties. 465 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:16,676 Speaker 7: These are two people I really liked intensely. 466 00:29:17,836 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 3: The brothers lived in adjoining identical penthouse apartments in a hotel, 467 00:29:22,756 --> 00:29:25,596 Speaker 3: each with an eight hundred square foot great room with 468 00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:29,596 Speaker 3: double height ceilings, and each brother had filled his great 469 00:29:29,636 --> 00:29:33,916 Speaker 3: room with things. I'm quoting now from Frost's account of 470 00:29:33,956 --> 00:29:36,996 Speaker 3: the case from a book he co authored called Stuff. 471 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:41,316 Speaker 3: Every square foot of the great room and dining room 472 00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 3: was packed with works of art and period furniture, eighteenth 473 00:29:45,436 --> 00:29:50,196 Speaker 3: and nineteenth century paintings, sculptures, bus antiques, lamps, jewelry, and more. 474 00:29:52,116 --> 00:29:54,996 Speaker 3: They had no pathways between all of their stuff. You 475 00:29:55,076 --> 00:29:57,716 Speaker 3: stepped over things as you walked. Some of the piles 476 00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:00,436 Speaker 3: were six feet high. On top of the art were 477 00:30:00,476 --> 00:30:05,116 Speaker 3: clothes everywhere, and papers, business cards, bits of junk. 478 00:30:06,996 --> 00:30:10,956 Speaker 7: They were lovely, They were intense in what they did. 479 00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:16,116 Speaker 7: They had this kind of bond as twins, but tension 480 00:30:16,156 --> 00:30:22,236 Speaker 7: at the same time. Fascinating, fascinating characters and really very 481 00:30:22,236 --> 00:30:25,916 Speaker 7: interested in this phenomenon for themselves. 482 00:30:26,876 --> 00:30:31,636 Speaker 3: This phenomenon meaning hoarding. Frost began to study hoarding behaviors 483 00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:34,156 Speaker 3: with the assumption that they sprang from the same place 484 00:30:34,276 --> 00:30:38,516 Speaker 3: as obsessive compulsive disorders. But the more he worked with hoarders, 485 00:30:38,836 --> 00:30:43,316 Speaker 3: the more he became convinced that description didn't fit. OCD. 486 00:30:43,476 --> 00:30:47,316 Speaker 3: Behavior is about the catastrophic reaction to an intrusive thought, 487 00:30:48,236 --> 00:30:53,716 Speaker 3: and those intrusive thoughts are negative danger, threat, contamination. But 488 00:30:53,836 --> 00:30:56,836 Speaker 3: so much of hoarding appeared to be the opposite. It 489 00:30:56,876 --> 00:31:01,396 Speaker 3: appeared to be about pleasure. One of the brothers, Alvin, 490 00:31:01,716 --> 00:31:04,036 Speaker 3: would come home for lunch nearly every day, just to 491 00:31:04,076 --> 00:31:07,876 Speaker 3: be among his things, not to organize, but to enjoy. 492 00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:10,716 Speaker 3: Frost would go with him on some of those visits, 493 00:31:10,996 --> 00:31:15,036 Speaker 3: and Alvin would walk through the chaos, pick up random objects, 494 00:31:15,316 --> 00:31:18,156 Speaker 3: and describe the story behind each one of his treasures. 495 00:31:18,956 --> 00:31:22,276 Speaker 3: Look at this doctor. His voice rose with excitement as 496 00:31:22,316 --> 00:31:25,236 Speaker 3: he found a ring. The ring he thought was from 497 00:31:25,276 --> 00:31:29,156 Speaker 3: western India. It was huge, almost the size of a walnut. 498 00:31:29,556 --> 00:31:32,316 Speaker 3: To savely scene in the book when you're walking through 499 00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:36,396 Speaker 3: Alvin's apartment with him and he's picking up objects, yea, 500 00:31:36,596 --> 00:31:40,196 Speaker 3: but many of those objects have genuine value. 501 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:42,636 Speaker 14: Many of them did, some of them didn't, some of 502 00:31:42,716 --> 00:31:45,156 Speaker 14: them didn't. And it reminded me a little bit of 503 00:31:45,876 --> 00:31:50,516 Speaker 14: Andy Warhol, because he collected things in this way, and 504 00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:54,276 Speaker 14: things with immense value and things of no value, and 505 00:31:54,356 --> 00:31:57,236 Speaker 14: put them all into these treasure chests. 506 00:31:57,476 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah. 507 00:31:58,996 --> 00:32:02,116 Speaker 3: Was Alvin aware He must have been aware intellectually of 508 00:32:02,436 --> 00:32:06,236 Speaker 3: what was marketplace valuable and what was Yes, it just 509 00:32:06,316 --> 00:32:08,116 Speaker 3: that it was all a value tea. 510 00:32:08,356 --> 00:32:10,876 Speaker 7: It was all value to him, yeah yeah. 511 00:32:10,876 --> 00:32:14,476 Speaker 3: And he had no desire. He didn't want to show 512 00:32:14,516 --> 00:32:19,116 Speaker 3: off his treasures in anything. Frost says that the impulse 513 00:32:19,156 --> 00:32:21,276 Speaker 3: to Hoarde has three motivations. 514 00:32:21,716 --> 00:32:24,596 Speaker 14: One is instrumental, that is, I might need it someday. 515 00:32:24,956 --> 00:32:28,876 Speaker 14: The other is emotional, that is, this emotional connection with 516 00:32:28,916 --> 00:32:30,996 Speaker 14: another person or of ant or something. And the third 517 00:32:31,076 --> 00:32:35,396 Speaker 14: is esthetic, this idea of the beauty of the physical world. 518 00:32:35,956 --> 00:32:39,916 Speaker 3: The second of those ideas, the emotional one, Frost describes 519 00:32:39,996 --> 00:32:43,236 Speaker 3: as the proost effect from the famous passage in Prousse's 520 00:32:43,276 --> 00:32:44,636 Speaker 3: Remembrance of Things Past. 521 00:32:45,156 --> 00:32:48,876 Speaker 14: He's eating this cookie and all of a sudden, it 522 00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:51,716 Speaker 14: brings him back to his childhood when his aunt used 523 00:32:51,756 --> 00:32:53,796 Speaker 14: to make these cookies for him, and he remembers the 524 00:32:53,836 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 14: way it felt a little bit like the phenomena is 525 00:32:57,396 --> 00:32:58,356 Speaker 14: like hearing a song. 526 00:32:58,196 --> 00:33:02,076 Speaker 7: From your childhood. What started to dawn on me was 527 00:33:02,156 --> 00:33:08,356 Speaker 7: that with people with this problem, these objects form that 528 00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:12,076 Speaker 7: kind of experience in a much more intense way than 529 00:33:12,116 --> 00:33:18,556 Speaker 7: everybody else so somehow these objects are keys to these 530 00:33:19,036 --> 00:33:21,956 Speaker 7: visceral memories that get produced. 531 00:33:22,276 --> 00:33:28,716 Speaker 3: So finding something, anything, some token, some memento, anything that 532 00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:33,996 Speaker 3: from your past triggers a much more vivid recollection than 533 00:33:34,716 --> 00:33:35,356 Speaker 3: in the rest. 534 00:33:35,156 --> 00:33:37,916 Speaker 7: Of us than for the rest of us. Yes, and 535 00:33:38,516 --> 00:33:40,996 Speaker 7: it is a recollection. 536 00:33:41,996 --> 00:33:45,156 Speaker 3: Hold on, it's such a fascinating notion. So you mentioned music, 537 00:33:45,516 --> 00:33:47,236 Speaker 3: so most of us would have it. You know, there 538 00:33:47,276 --> 00:33:50,956 Speaker 3: are songs if you play them, have that thing for me, 539 00:33:51,916 --> 00:33:54,676 Speaker 3: yas only you. I don't know why that sounds, but 540 00:33:54,996 --> 00:33:58,396 Speaker 3: I can imagine. So what you're saying is that feeling 541 00:33:58,436 --> 00:34:01,836 Speaker 3: I have with yas only you, only with a book 542 00:34:01,836 --> 00:34:05,836 Speaker 3: of match box of matches, or absolutely yes, a playbill 543 00:34:06,036 --> 00:34:09,756 Speaker 3: or a yes. One of Frost's patients was a woman 544 00:34:09,876 --> 00:34:12,836 Speaker 3: who couldn't throw away a Disney blanket that her daughter 545 00:34:12,916 --> 00:34:13,556 Speaker 3: had loved as. 546 00:34:13,476 --> 00:34:17,436 Speaker 15: A small child, because she feels like if she throws 547 00:34:17,476 --> 00:34:23,196 Speaker 15: it away, she will lose the memories associated with that blanket, 548 00:34:23,276 --> 00:34:27,036 Speaker 15: and she will lose that piece of history, her personal history. 549 00:34:27,116 --> 00:34:30,716 Speaker 15: And if she throws away too much, there's nothing well 550 00:34:31,076 --> 00:34:31,596 Speaker 15: left of her. 551 00:34:32,196 --> 00:34:35,516 Speaker 3: For another patient, it was one of those ATM cash 552 00:34:35,676 --> 00:34:37,516 Speaker 3: envelopes from five years ago. 553 00:34:38,036 --> 00:34:39,876 Speaker 14: There was no cash in it. She'd spent the cash 554 00:34:39,916 --> 00:34:42,356 Speaker 14: that was in it, but on the back she'd written 555 00:34:43,196 --> 00:34:45,676 Speaker 14: how she spent it, and it wasn't anything unusual, grocery store, 556 00:34:45,796 --> 00:34:48,516 Speaker 14: drugs for a few other items. She put it in 557 00:34:48,716 --> 00:34:53,276 Speaker 14: the recycle box and she started to cry, and she said, 558 00:34:54,996 --> 00:34:58,076 Speaker 14: it feels like I'm losing that day in my life. 559 00:34:58,756 --> 00:35:01,116 Speaker 14: And if I lose too much, there'll be nothing left 560 00:35:01,116 --> 00:35:01,356 Speaker 14: of me. 561 00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:07,796 Speaker 3: There'll be nothing left of me. One of the twin brothers, Alvin, 562 00:35:08,076 --> 00:35:11,636 Speaker 3: was a successful of organizer. He once told Frost that 563 00:35:11,676 --> 00:35:14,156 Speaker 3: he had lost a folder containing his notes from something 564 00:35:14,196 --> 00:35:17,956 Speaker 3: he'd organized, and even though the event was recent, every 565 00:35:18,156 --> 00:35:20,956 Speaker 3: memory he'd had of it was gone, and when he 566 00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:25,796 Speaker 3: found the folder again, his memories returned. If your mind 567 00:35:25,836 --> 00:35:29,116 Speaker 3: works that way, why would you ever throw away that folder? 568 00:35:30,636 --> 00:35:32,676 Speaker 3: Most people would look at this and see a mess, 569 00:35:33,076 --> 00:35:35,876 Speaker 3: he told Frost on one of their visits to his penthouse, 570 00:35:36,516 --> 00:35:41,596 Speaker 3: And then he said, really, it's layered and complex. Their 571 00:35:41,636 --> 00:35:44,756 Speaker 3: penthouses were so overwhelmed with stuff that they had to 572 00:35:44,796 --> 00:35:48,196 Speaker 3: live elsewhere in smaller rooms in the hotel, which were 573 00:35:48,236 --> 00:35:51,956 Speaker 3: also overwhelmed with stuff. But they couldn't part with any 574 00:35:51,996 --> 00:35:55,236 Speaker 3: of it. It would be too great a loss. They 575 00:35:55,236 --> 00:35:58,196 Speaker 3: didn't want to itemize it or put it under balance 576 00:35:58,236 --> 00:36:02,156 Speaker 3: sheet or show the world. I'm sure they had their 577 00:36:02,196 --> 00:36:05,916 Speaker 3: own Islamic rugs buried somewhere in their great room, which 578 00:36:05,956 --> 00:36:11,676 Speaker 3: they had never seen when you got them away from there, 579 00:36:11,876 --> 00:36:16,476 Speaker 3: from the subject of holding it, away from their apartments. 580 00:36:16,636 --> 00:36:19,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, what were they like? 581 00:36:19,596 --> 00:36:19,796 Speaker 7: Oh? 582 00:36:19,836 --> 00:36:23,876 Speaker 14: There, they were fond, they were fascinating, they knew something 583 00:36:23,916 --> 00:36:27,916 Speaker 14: about everything. They were both delightful, delightful people. 584 00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:31,236 Speaker 3: If you talk to a late person, they would probably 585 00:36:31,276 --> 00:36:33,996 Speaker 3: think of holding as a kind of mental illness. I'm 586 00:36:34,036 --> 00:36:37,196 Speaker 3: imagining it's not an mental illness. It's not a it's 587 00:36:37,236 --> 00:36:40,396 Speaker 3: not a deficit that affects all aspects of your functioning. 588 00:36:40,516 --> 00:36:40,676 Speaker 8: Yeah. 589 00:36:41,436 --> 00:36:44,676 Speaker 14: The way I describe it sometimes is a form of giftedness. 590 00:36:45,796 --> 00:36:49,116 Speaker 14: There's a gift associated with this, an appreciation for the 591 00:36:49,116 --> 00:36:54,956 Speaker 14: physical world, an appreciation for the emotional experience that's associated 592 00:36:54,996 --> 00:37:00,916 Speaker 14: with objects, and and that that gift unfortunately comes with 593 00:37:00,996 --> 00:37:04,436 Speaker 14: a curse, and the curse is not being able to 594 00:37:04,476 --> 00:37:04,996 Speaker 14: manage it. 595 00:37:06,156 --> 00:37:08,796 Speaker 3: The holder is someone with the unusual ability to see 596 00:37:08,836 --> 00:37:12,316 Speaker 3: beauty in the ordinary, which is exactly the point that 597 00:37:12,356 --> 00:37:14,316 Speaker 3: Simon Dona made about Andy Warhol. 598 00:37:14,916 --> 00:37:19,076 Speaker 12: The nicest aspect of him was that he was very democratic. Example, 599 00:37:20,076 --> 00:37:24,436 Speaker 12: he said, if everyone's not a beauty, then nobody is. 600 00:37:25,876 --> 00:37:27,876 Speaker 1: Oh that's kind of lovely, it's fabulous. 601 00:37:28,116 --> 00:37:31,836 Speaker 12: That's why he thought these these drag queens, you know, 602 00:37:32,356 --> 00:37:38,676 Speaker 12: Jackie Curtis and Hollywoodlawn were not objectively Sophia Loren But 603 00:37:38,796 --> 00:37:41,756 Speaker 12: he saw beauty and magic and madness in them. 604 00:37:41,796 --> 00:37:43,996 Speaker 3: You know, you know what, but Simon, that is the 605 00:37:43,996 --> 00:37:48,556 Speaker 3: perfect illustration of the particular condition, wonderful condition of the 606 00:37:48,716 --> 00:37:52,916 Speaker 3: order who applies that same logic to objects. If every 607 00:37:52,996 --> 00:37:57,876 Speaker 3: object is not is not beautiful, then no object is right. 608 00:37:57,956 --> 00:37:59,556 Speaker 1: It's exactly the same. 609 00:37:59,836 --> 00:38:02,436 Speaker 12: Like some crappy old broken toy. It is the same 610 00:38:02,476 --> 00:38:05,356 Speaker 12: as an anouvovarse that your grandmother left you. 611 00:38:05,596 --> 00:38:09,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. That's the That is the god that's. 612 00:38:11,556 --> 00:38:15,516 Speaker 3: It is. Isn't it haunting? And it's why the Warhol 613 00:38:15,596 --> 00:38:18,996 Speaker 3: Museum keeps all of Warhol's boxes, because they have the 614 00:38:19,036 --> 00:38:22,916 Speaker 3: same condition that Warhol had. They have to insist on 615 00:38:22,996 --> 00:38:26,116 Speaker 3: the meaning and beauty in all of that ephemera. They're 616 00:38:26,196 --> 00:38:29,876 Speaker 3: the Warhol Museum, and like the hoarder, they worry that 617 00:38:29,916 --> 00:38:32,316 Speaker 3: if they get rid of any of his stuff, they'll 618 00:38:32,356 --> 00:38:35,476 Speaker 3: lose their connection to him, And can they count that 619 00:38:35,516 --> 00:38:39,556 Speaker 3: stuff up and put a value on it. No, because 620 00:38:39,596 --> 00:38:43,756 Speaker 3: to the hoarder everything is of equal value. 621 00:38:47,716 --> 00:38:51,316 Speaker 5: So you get into these debates. They get esoteric sometimes, 622 00:38:51,876 --> 00:38:54,636 Speaker 5: but you know, standard setting. Eventually the boyd says, all right, 623 00:38:54,636 --> 00:38:56,076 Speaker 5: we got to get to closure. We got to make 624 00:38:56,076 --> 00:38:58,036 Speaker 5: a decision. We can't just go on forever. 625 00:38:58,796 --> 00:39:01,876 Speaker 3: Ron Bossio My Guide to the Hearing of the FASB 626 00:39:01,996 --> 00:39:05,756 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety one, when C. Douglas Dillon appeared in Norwalk, 627 00:39:05,836 --> 00:39:09,796 Speaker 3: Connecticut and stood up before the Vatican of Accounting and said, 628 00:39:10,436 --> 00:39:13,196 Speaker 3: we cannot tell you what we have in our collections. 629 00:39:13,556 --> 00:39:17,876 Speaker 3: That is not the way our imaginations are wired. And 630 00:39:17,916 --> 00:39:21,676 Speaker 3: the Vatican backs down. The accountants realize that this is 631 00:39:21,676 --> 00:39:24,436 Speaker 3: a battle they cannot win, with the result that on 632 00:39:24,516 --> 00:39:28,556 Speaker 3: virtually every American art museum bound sheet there is some 633 00:39:28,716 --> 00:39:34,396 Speaker 3: version of note A. In conformity with accounting policies generally 634 00:39:34,436 --> 00:39:38,556 Speaker 3: followed by art museums, the value of the museum's collections 635 00:39:38,836 --> 00:39:42,716 Speaker 3: has been excluded from the statement of financial position. 636 00:39:45,916 --> 00:39:48,316 Speaker 8: When the moon was new, when the sun yang of 637 00:39:48,436 --> 00:39:51,956 Speaker 8: silver and gold, the gods sang in the green grass 638 00:39:52,036 --> 00:39:55,276 Speaker 8: lays silver spilled and the white waters they with gold filled. 639 00:39:58,196 --> 00:40:02,396 Speaker 3: In Tolkien's poem The Horde, everyone who desired the treasure 640 00:40:02,476 --> 00:40:06,796 Speaker 3: dies in the end, but the treasure remains buried deep 641 00:40:07,356 --> 00:40:08,756 Speaker 3: in giant warehouses. 642 00:40:09,396 --> 00:40:14,876 Speaker 8: In New Jersey, there is an old Horde in a 643 00:40:14,956 --> 00:40:18,436 Speaker 8: dark rock. Have gotten behind doors, and none can unlock 644 00:40:18,996 --> 00:40:22,636 Speaker 8: that grim gate. No man can pass on the mound 645 00:40:22,756 --> 00:40:26,196 Speaker 8: rows the green grass. There sheep feed, and the lock saw, 646 00:40:26,676 --> 00:40:29,916 Speaker 8: and the wind blows from the sea shore. The old 647 00:40:29,996 --> 00:40:34,796 Speaker 8: howde the night shall keep our earthwakes and the elves sleep. 648 00:40:40,476 --> 00:40:45,156 Speaker 3: Revisiono's History is produced by Meelobelle and Leamingesteux, with Jacob Smith, 649 00:40:45,356 --> 00:40:50,636 Speaker 3: Aloise Lytton and Anna naim Our. Editor is Julia Barton. 650 00:40:50,916 --> 00:40:55,396 Speaker 3: Original scoring by Luis Gera, mastering by Flon Williams. Fact 651 00:40:55,436 --> 00:40:59,116 Speaker 3: checking by Beth Johnson. Special thanks to the Pushkin Crew, 652 00:40:59,516 --> 00:41:05,476 Speaker 3: Heaterphane Carly Migliore, Maya Knig, Maggie Taylor, Jason Gambrel and 653 00:41:05,596 --> 00:41:08,476 Speaker 3: of course el Hafe Jacob Weisbering. 654 00:41:10,436 --> 00:41:11,316 Speaker 1: I'm often dropper