WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - November 22nd, 2024 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:06.800 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:13.399 This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek inside from the reporters and editors 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:17.600 who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.799 finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:25.920 Carol Messer and Tim Stenebek from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:29.880 Hi, everyone, welcome to the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.200 Well this week, gail politics and US politics all front 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.040 and center for US, and yes, Nvidia did report earnings. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:39.080 You can check out that huge market focus by heading 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.319 to Bloomberg dot Com or the Bloomberg We did want 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.920 to just highlight that for us, though, as we said, 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.720 we were all in about the new political reality, facing 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:50.600 serious issues globally and right here at home. 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:54.800 On that, we ponder President elect Trump's impossible task. He's 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.680 made promises of policy for both the working class and 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:00.120 the rich. How does that actually work? 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.920 It's a great question. Plus one of President Elect Donald 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:07.039 Trump's more controversial nominees, RFK Junior as the nation's top 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.120 health official. On what it may mean for healthcare in 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:12.520 America and the next generation, and. 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.800 Another win for Elon in the new administration, and venture 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.160 capital and innovation in the Middle East. All that to come. 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.520 We begin with Bloomberg BusinessWeek national correspondent Josh Green. 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.320 Josh is the author of Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, Donald 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.400 Trump in the Nationalist Uprising. He also wrote The Rebels 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.640 Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio Cortes, and the Struggle 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:34.360 for a New American Politics. 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.720 Josh's BusinessWeek story. It tackles how Trump is attempting to 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:42.039 pull off what Josh calls quote pollutocratic populism, but the 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:43.800 math just doesn't square well. 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:45.280 Yeah, I think it was a surprise to a lot 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:46.959 of people, but in a lot of ways, it's a 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.160 much more impressive victory than his win in twenty sixteen, 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.520 which took a lot of people by surprise. He did 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.960 not win a majority of the popular vote that time. 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:58.680 Looks almost certain that he will this time. And I 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.200 think what's most important is that coalition that Trump put 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.360 together in winning the twenty twenty four election. There were 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:08.200 both the kind of high wattage billionaire supporters, people like 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:10.680 Howard lutt Nick and Elon Musk, But on the other hand, 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:15.239 Trump cobbled together a really racially diverse working class coalition 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.560 that we hadn't seen the last time around. A lot 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.799 of voters that traditionally vote Democrat were persuaded to come 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.240 over and vote for Trump, and as a result, he 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.160 has a really big coalition. As I write about in 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.680 the new issue of BusinessWeek, Trump has pursued this kind 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:32.920 of what I call plutocratic populism, and I think the 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.720 main tension in his second presidency is going to be 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:38.480 how to balance the interests of working class people with 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.840 the interests of the billionaire and Wall Street crowd, who 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:43.440 are another important coalition. 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:44.919 For So let's talk a little bit about that, Josh. 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.239 Because you came with receipts, you have the numbers here. 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.200 Why is that an impossible task? Why is he unable 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:52.320 to do that and make good on really every promise 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:53.520 that he made on the campaign trail. 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.519 Well, if you look at exit poll numbers and just 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.760 in my own interviews with undecided voters and people were 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.160 trying supporters, a lot of what drove Trump's support was 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:07.480 voter anger, especially working class voter anger over inflation high prices, 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.520 for which they blamed Kamala Harris personally. They didn't want 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.760 her back in there. They remember the Trump era, rightly 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:20.280 or wrongly, as a time of lower prices, lower inflation, 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.720 strong paychecks for everybody, and so they voted for Trump 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:24.960 in the hopes that. 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:25.960 He would bring that back. 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:28.440 But if you look at what some of Trump is 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:30.400 planning to do, you know, the first item on his 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.519 agenda looks to be extending his twenty seventeen tax cuts 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.960 and maybe even cutting corporate taxes deeper than he did 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.280 the first time around, which would be very exciting to 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:44.600 his Wall Street contingent, to his billionaire contingent, But it 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:49.200 could certainly help exacerbate inflation, as could. 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:50.480 A steep round of tariffs. 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:52.680 So on the one hand, you know, you could satisfy 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:55.560 one half of the coalition, But if the cost of 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.440 that was for prices, inflation, and interest rates to rise again, 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:01.720 then a lot of the same working class voters who 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.240 supported him two weeks ago could potentially turn on him 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.080 and Republicans in the midterm elections and handpower back to 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:08.760 the Democrats. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.520 Hey, how much do you think though Donald J. Trump 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:13.480 thinks about the midterms at this point? 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:13.640 All? 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:13.880 Right? 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.880 I mean essentially, right, is this his second term. 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:18.160 He's a lame duck president. 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.200 He can do a lot of stuff, and he's got 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.280 a congress, But how much do you think he thinks 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.719 about what happens at midterms versus following through on his mandate. 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:28.479 It's a great question, Carrol. 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.120 It's one I've asked to some people around him, and 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.400 the truthful answer I got is he doesn't really care 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.159 at all. What he cares about is this approval rating. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.280 He'd like to have a booming stock market the way 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.000 he did in his first term, and so part of 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:44.599 the thinking in Trump world is that even if he 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.719 did promote someone a Treasury secretary who got behind this 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.680 tariff regime and things went badly in the economy, if 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.120 the market were to fall, that might be a kind 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.120 of disciplining mechanism for Trump to step back a little bit, 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.200 because he really does view the stock mark at the 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.040 S and P as a kind of verdict on the 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.960 success or failure of his presidency. But certainly, thinking about 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.920 the fortunes of congressional Republicans in twenty twenty six, it 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.560 is probably not top of mind for Donald Trump right now. 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:15.320 That's interesting to hear. 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.320 Why do you think that is? Because it sort of 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.359 does provide, to a certain extent a check on what 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.480 he's able to do, because if he puts policies into 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.560 place that are unpopular among his base, then he could 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.000 really pay a price in the midterms. 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:30.599 Yeah, he could. 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:32.400 I mean, I've gotten a couple answers from that in 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.200 my reporting. One is that Trump simply does not believe 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.960 what most mainstream economists believe, and that is that tariffs 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.599 are inflationary and the cost will be passed along to 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.760 consumers in the form of higher prices. I am my 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:45.919 business We colleagues got to ask Trump about that for 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.960 a Business We Cover story cover interview we did with 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.840 Donald Trump back in July at Mara a Lago, and 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.720 he simply disagrees. He said, well, if tariffs were inflationary, 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.880 we would have had inflation during my first presidency. I 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.000 imposed rounds of tariffs and we didn't, and therefore it's 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.160 not going to be a problem. A lot of people 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:10.080 around Trump publicly surrogates, have taken to echoing those points. So, 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.160 as one of my sources pointed out to me in 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.400 my current Business Week story, Trump doesn't believe that tariffs 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.760 are inflationary. Therefore he's not going to believe it until 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.440 they're implemented and until we see inflation. So to me, 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:24.520 that suggests that we may be in for a rocky 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.119 ride financially economically over the next four years if Trump 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.360 is able to go ahead and do what he says 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.240 he's going to do. And there are fewer guardrails and 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.600 fewer breaks with Republicans controlling all three branches of Congress 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.200 now than there were last time around. So I think 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.640 I think his theories on tariffs and everything else make 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:43.600 it a real test run. 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:48.640 I also do wonder, Josh, do you think Donald Trump 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:52.839 thinks about his legacy? You know two assassination tempts, you know, 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.640 one that we you know, obviously more serious it seems 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:58.960 in certainly than the other one. But I do wonder 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.400 if he's an older man, right, we all get older, 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.360 we start to think about kind of our life's impact. 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:08.080 Is this your understanding of him? You think he's thinking 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:08.600 about that? 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:11.320 In the second I'll say this, I'll say, you know, 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.360 he and I have never had that discussion. But from 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:16.800 everything I've seen from him, from everything I've heard from 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.080 people around him, Trump tends to live in the here 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:24.400 and now. I mean, he is responsive to the cable 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:28.320 chirons that he sees on TV. He's responsive to the 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:31.760 closing price in the stock market, not so much thinking 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:35.000 about how his obituary will look in the New York Times. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.920 But that being said, look, all presidents like to succeed. 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.120 I'm sure Trump would like high approval numbers and a 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.000 lot of the signifiers that Trump looks to for validation, 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.440 things like the level of the stock market, the wealth 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.120 of the United States, the trade deficit. Those are all 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:52.280 measuring sticks that I think Trump is going to use 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.200 to measure his own performance. And we'll have to see 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:57.920 if he can get those boosted along the lines that 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.960 I know he wants to based on the policies that 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.080 he said he's going to pursue, and if he can 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:07.240 do it without breaking apart that broad coalition of both 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.000 Wall Street folks and working class folks that got him 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:11.200 elected on November. 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.240 Fifth, Josh, speaking of policies, do you believe that he 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.200 will actually make good based on the folks you talk 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.160 to of deporting millions of people who are here illegally 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:19.840 on day one. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.080 He's certainly shown every sign that he intends to do that, 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.640 both from the people he's put in top level positions, 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.520 people like Stephen Miller, and Tom Holmans that would lead 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:32.400 that effort to some of the comments he's made more 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:37.160 recently about being willing to deputize US law enforcement to 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.600 help carry out this deportation. So, everything we've seen so 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.000 far suggests that yes, Trump is very serious about that 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:44.560 and intends to pursue it as president. 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:46.640 Hey, just thirty seconds here to wrap up, and you've 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.679 wrap up your piece. I mean, Donald Trump may also 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.120 just be lucky in terms of timing right policies put 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.800 in place by the Body administration. He may reap the 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:56.920 benefits up just quickly. 0:08:57.640 --> 0:08:58.080 Yeah. I mean. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.439 The thing that galls so many bidens people in so 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.720 many democratic sources is look at the economy Joe Biden 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.480 has bequeathed Donald Trump. We have inflation coming down, the 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.319 stock market is at record highs. We have all these 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.680 new jobs in manufacturing factories being built all across the 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.280 country with money that Biden really helped put in place. 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.120 And now Donald Trump is about to take over as 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:22.240 president and reap the political benefits and credit for all 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.120 of those things. Great timing for Donald Trump, not so 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:27.360 great timing for Joe Biden. 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:31.280 That was Josh Green Bloomberg, BusinessWeek, National correspondent an author 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.240 of the book Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump and 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:38.200 the Nationalist Uprising, and more recently The Rebels Elizabeth Warren, 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.319 Bernie Sanders, AOC and The Rise of the New Left. 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.199 Both great takes on politics in America. Well a lot 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.720 this week regarding possible people and policies around the second 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.840 Trump White House. On that, another story we've been looking 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.679 at this week, Donald Trump's federal framework for self driving vehicles. 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.800 If new rules enable wider deployment of cars without human 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.120 controls think no pedals, no steering wheel, it will directly 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.880 benefit Tesla's CEO and big donor buddy of the President elect. Yes, 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.920 we are talking about Elon Musk. Elon has bet the 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.040 future of the ev maker on self driving tech and AI. 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.760 David Welsh is Bloomberg News Detroit Bureau chief. He breaks 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:15.280 it all down. 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.640 What we're talking about is a federal framework governing av's 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.920 in pretty much every way, but specifically looking at vehicles 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:27.080 that don't have those human controls. That's a truly driverless vehicle. 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:29.800 That's what Elon Musk wants to put on the road 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:31.920 in a couple of years with Tesla and that's what 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.840 has basically changed the valuation in the stock. Investors were 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.760 worried that the eede business was kind of settling into 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:42.520 a decently profitable, slow growth sort of thing, and he 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.560 energized interest in the stock again with this robotaxi business. So, 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:49.600 when you don't have a federal framework for that, you're 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.200 relying on different states, this patchwork quild of regulations. It 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.000 is actually very tough to run them. In California, they 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.640 get monitored strictly, almost impossible in New York, but states 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.880 like Arizona and Texas are pretty permissive. 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:03.680 There's nothing at the federal level. 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.840 What they do is they try to kind of shoehorn 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:12.040 avs into existing rules that were ridden before autonomous vehicles 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:13.920 were around. And there have been several efforts in Congress 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:15.800 and then the Senate to pass rules, and they've always 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.800 tripped up over something or other. What the Transportation Department 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.880 could do is they could streamline permitting and they could 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.920 expand the use of evs from what they have now, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.040 which basically says if you get an exemption for a 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.360 vehicle that doesn't have a steering wheel and brake pedal, 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.960 for example, you can run twenty five hundred of those 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:34.280 a year. 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.000 That's it. General Motors tried. 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.400 To get this exemption two years, they waited around, they 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:42.080 finally dropped the project. And only one other company that 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:46.280 I know of, neuro a startup that has that delivers goods, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.520 not people in their robotaxis or in their autonomous vehicles, 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.720 got an exemption. So it's tough to get and very limited. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:53.360 Hey, listen, one thing I want to ask you. 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.480 I mean, I get it that having a patch work 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.480 is probably not great on something like that, So I 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.400 kind of get the understanding of the need for a 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.040 federal framework. Having said that, don't we still have a 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.160 lot of safety issues to figure this one out. 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.440 There are, And that's why I think the fact that 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:14.200 the Transportation Department under Trump wants to do this is 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.960 good news for autonomous vehicle companies because you get the 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.800 start of a framework, you know, at that level, and 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.200 maybe instead of twenty five hundred vehicles, they could expand 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.679 that and they could streamline that process. But to really 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:26.640 scale this up and to make this a regular thing, 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:31.640 you're probably still going to need a law passed by Congress. 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:33.160 You're going to need the Senate in the House to 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.319 both weigh in and to prove this, and that's what's 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:38.120 always been tough. You have safety groups, you have trial 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.679 lawyers groups, you have unions who come in and weigh in, 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:44.280 and politicians get cold feet because these constituents aren't crazy 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.240 about autonomy. And look, you do have safety concern here 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.840 with you know, if you just get too permissive, this 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.200 is the wild Western. You've got robotaxis and autonomous trucks 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:54.880 all over the place. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.360 You know, some people are going to be concerned about that. 0:12:58.440 --> 0:12:59.600 And we'll still have a debate on this. 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.120 Holy shit, Hey, David, how's all this playing out in Detroit? 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.480 I mean, you're in motor City right now. This is 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.280 a state that was considered a toss up swing state, 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.680 battleground state, call it whatever you want. It went for 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.960 it for Trump this time. If you're one of the 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.400 folks who works at one of these American auto manufacturers 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.880 and you see Elon Musk by the side of Donald 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.200 Trump day in and day out, what are you thinking 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:23.680 right now? 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.280 I think the biggest worry they would have it wouldn't 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.360 be for robotaxi, by the way, I think the bigger 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:35.000 fear is that with few economy rules and with incentives 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:39.640 for electric vehicles that you know, Elon Musk is sitting 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.360 next to Donald Trump down on mar Lago if he's 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.839 okay with getting rid of the seventy five hundred hour 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.480 consumer tax credit to buy evs because. 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.080 His company makes pretty good money on them. 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.280 And sells a lot of them without tax credits, and 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.280 he thinks it'll be worse on General motors, worse on Ford, Toyota, 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:59.679 et cetera. Then that's what happened because Trump doesn't doesn't 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.400 want to keep funding these tax credits. They're just tough 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.400 run on these companies that are trying to build up 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.480 a supply base, trying to build up a customer base, 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.000 and trying to drive down costs because they're kind of 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:12.600 at the early part of their EV business. That's worrisome 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:14.400 to them. And then you know what happens with few 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.800 economy rules. You know, are they written in a way 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.480 or changed in a way that's better for Tesla adventages 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:21.360 for the other company? 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:21.560 Yep. 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:23.160 So that's what I wanted to get at, is like, 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.040 what about Elon's influence. It's not like you have you know, 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.040 Mary Bara having the ear of the incoming president day 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.800 in and day out or another auto executive. I mean, 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:36.040 Elon Musk is on the plane. He's going to UFC fights. 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.600 He's down to mar A Lago. He's there the whole time. 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:40.480 That's right. 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.400 He's spending an awful lot of time there. So he's 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.320 going to have he's going to be weighing in on 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.040 the agenda for the auto industry. Pretty have we we'll see. 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.440 But are folks in Detroit, the major executives at the 0:14:52.440 --> 0:15:00.080 major US auto manufacturers like wait a minute, unfair advantage. 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.680 They're in a tough spot because they didn't always get 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.800 their way with Trump or with Biden for that matter, 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.200 when they were lobbying the old fashioned way, and now 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:13.120 they've got this new gigantic wrinkle where one of their 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:20.760 prime competitors is basically probably the most influential personality in 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:22.600 President elect Trump's center circle. 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.160 That was David Welsh, Bloomberg News Detroit bureau chief. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.440 Coming up, the vocal vaccine skeptic that is now the 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:30.720 pick to become the nation's top health official. 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.920 What the selection of Rfk Junior may mean for healthcare 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:38.280 in America. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg. 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.080 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch US 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.360 Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.560 on Apple card Play and the Broud Auto with a 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.600 Bloomberg Business app, or watch US Live on YouTube. 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:53.440 Well. 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:54.120 Robert F. 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.360 Kennedy Junior's selection to serve as president like Donald Trump's 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.080 top health official is prompting questions from policy watchers over 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.800 how the pick will handle the range of health and 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.080 really key health policies that would fall under his purview. 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.280 He's an environmental lawyer and vocal vaccine skeptic. He's publicly 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:14.080 taken positions against food additives and immunization recommendations, but the 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.280 nominee for Secretary of the US Department of Health and 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.040 Human Services has been relatively quiet on many of the 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.720 other issues he would oversee while leading thirteen supporting agencies 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.560 in more than eighty thousand federal employees. So let's get 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.880 to the interview we got with us doctor Paul Offitt, 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.520 director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.760 of Philadelphia, who joins us from Philadelphia. Doctor, good to 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.960 have you with us. How might RFK Junior impact healthcare, food, 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.440 medical research and more? Here in the US. 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.720 He is a very long anti vaccine activist. He is 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.760 a science denihilist, and he is a conspiracy theorist. This 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:48.760 is not the kind of person you want to head 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.440 health agencies. I mean, he has said that no vaccine 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.239 is a benefit. He has said that the polio vaccine 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.680 killed more people than it ever saved. He thinks that 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.200 HIV human am deficiency virus is not the cause of AIDS. 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.720 He's an AIDS denialist. He thinks we should drink raw milk, 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:06.879 which will put us once again in a position of 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.960 risking things like campelo backer and he call I and salmonella. 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.240 He thinks that the SARS virus was created in the 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:19.000 laboratory and specifically designed to spare Ashkenazi Jews in Chinese 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:21.479 and target whites and blacks. I mean, this is the 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.240 man you want to head health agencies. 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.360 I don't think So what scares you the most, Well, 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:27.160 what scares. 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.200 Me the most is is that that he now has 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.560 has a bigger platform to be anti vaccine. So, I mean, 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.000 he's always had a platform owing to the famous name, 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.840 but now that he's even considered for this position gives 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.840 him a certain level of credibility which he certainly doesn't deserve. 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.399 Let's suppose you have a vaccine that is submitted to 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.480 the FDA for licensure, and it's it's excellent, and it's 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.360 better than what we've had. I think, you know, say 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.720 I'm on the FDA Vaccine Devisory Committee. Let's say that 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.800 we recommend a licensure, and then the FDA considers that 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.840 recommendation and degrees he could say, no, I think they're 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.200 to be more study. Similarly, he could try and strip 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.920 away the CDC's capacity to recommend vaccines. He could take 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.040 the advisory committees to both those agencies, FDA and CDC 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:13.879 and try and stock it with people who are similarly 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.879 like minded science denialists, such as himself. I don't understand this. 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.960 And when he talks about, for example, something that makes sense, 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.280 which is trying to make our country healthier, decrease obesity, 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.960 decrease type two diabetes and the consequences of those disorders 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.160 such as strokes and heart attacks, I'm all for that 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.920 great idea, but there are a lot of people out 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.080 there who could do that job much better than he can, 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:36.719 given his science denialism. 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.000 Doctor Offitt on vaccine specifically, Robert F. Kennedy, as you know, 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.120 has often been referred to as a vaccine skeptic. You 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:44.800 call yourself a vaccine skeptic. 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:45.560 What's the difference. 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:48.679 A skeptic is somebody who says, prove it to me, 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.520 show me you're right. So when we sit around the 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.320 table at the FDA Vaccine Advisor Committee and consider vaccines, 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.359 as we did for the COVID vaccines, for example, in 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.399 December of twenty twenty, show us the data, prove that 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.600 it's effect, that prove that it's safe, so that we 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.080 can then recommend it in good conscience. That's skepticisms. Skepticism 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.040 is healthy. He's a cynic. He's a vaccine cynic. He 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.560 doesn't believe the data. He thinks that there are dark, 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:15.040 evil forces working behind the scenes that are misrepresenting data. 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:17.760 What he doesn't realize is that that there is no hiding. 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.320 Even a farm pharmacytical company misrepresented data on safety or 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.119 efficacy that will soon be found out because there are 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.520 post marketing studies like that can be done by the 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.080 Vaccine Safety Data Link, where you'll know if there's a 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.440 problem immediately. There is no hiding. So his whole premise 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:32.920 is wrong. 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.200 One thing that I've been wondering is how different are 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.480 we than other developed countries or other wealthy countries when 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:43.240 it comes to vaccine schedules. Doctor, Do we do things 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.920 differently than other countries around the world. 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.560 We tend to recommend more vaccines than most other countries. So, 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.080 for example, the chicken pox vaccine, which came onto the 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.560 market in nineteen ninety five, is not used in a 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.560 number of developed world countries. They're willing to have children 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.639 suffer ticken pox. In this country, obviously, there would be 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:03.639 millions of cases of chicken pox a year, and there'd 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.280 be about seventy five to two hundred people who would 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:07.800 die of chicken pox, and there would be tens of 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:12.040 thousands of hospitalizations. So we thought that was worth eliminating. 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.640 But you know, not all countries felt the same way. 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.560 Other than that, though, are there aren't big differences? 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:20.720 No, No, For the most part, the developed world doesn't 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:21.560 like children. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:21.840 So we would. 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.000 So if you did over end up overseeing the CDC 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.760 and changing the recommendations, we'd be an outlier in this country. 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.320 Based on some of the recommendations that he. 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:35.520 Could make, right, I think his fanatical anti vaccine activism 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:38.880 has already scared people. I mean, if you look, for example, 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:41.840 over the last few years, their number of cases of 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:45.440 measles have increased dramatically. Last year we had three thousand 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.439 cases of protessler hooping cough. This year we have seventeen thousand. 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.400 We've had more than two hundred children less than eighteen 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.119 years of eight dive influenza over the pissure. That's a 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.920 high number. So you're already seeing an erosion in trust, 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:00.240 already seeing an erosion in vaccine rates among kindergartens, and 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.240 as a consequence, you're seeing an increase in infectious diseases 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:05.960 that are preventable. It's unconscionable. 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:06.920 I have to say. 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:10.440 I have talked with colleagues and friends and associates who 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:15.480 have autistic children now adults, and who are open to 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.399 the idea that maybe vaccines cause this problem. So like 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:22.400 there is you know, I've had these discussions. I guess 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.040 what I wonder about, are we going to maybe depending 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:29.040 on what comes out, if RFK is indeed our next 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:32.800 top health voice here in the administration, that will that 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.560 potentially lead to maybe some kind of ruling or mandate 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:38.840 that comes down that says we don't believe in vaccines, 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.040 and then are they not covered by insurance? Like, how 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.520 does this potentially play out realistically? 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:44.200 Right? 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.440 So, so there's the Vaccine for Children's Program, which was 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:49.000 born in the nineteen nineties, and the Clinton administration, which 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.760 basically covers about half of the vaccines in this country 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.760 for children who are either under insured or uninsured. I 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:56.520 don't think he could touch that. I mean, that's really 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:59.000 a congressional program. The Congress would have to agree to that. 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:01.040 I can't imagine that happened. He could make it more 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.879 difficult to get insurance generally for vaccines, making them more 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.960 expensive for the consumer, that's possible. I mean, I think 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:10.479 he'll do everything he can to lessen the imunization rate. 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:12.479 This is what he says. I think that, you know, 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:16.080 the parents should make decisions well with their doctor and 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.800 basically pull the CCC out of it. Let let us 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:20.480 look at the real data. And he's going to show 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:22.560 us the real data because only he knows the real 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:26.720 data because he's a conspiracy theorist. It's it's hard to watch. 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.080 I do think there'll be an erosion in vaccine rates 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:31.760 and regarding autism, it's fair to ask the question. My 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.480 child was fine, they got a vaccine, Now they're not fine. 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.240 Could the vaccine have done it? That's an answerable question, 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.080 and it's been answered. There's been eighteen studies done in 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:43.440 seven country on three con instead have shown vaccines don't 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.520 cause autism. Question asked unanswered. 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:49.199 Is the medical community get, you know, gearing up to 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:49.800 fight back? 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.600 Yes, but again, you know we're not good at this stuff. 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:55.680 I mean I think, well, fight will certainly fight back 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:57.359 the way we knew how, which is which is to 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:01.320 try and present all the data that we know supports vaccines. 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:03.840 But this is really becoming a political issue, so I 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:05.800 think it's going to have to have a political solution. 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:09.080 I think we're gonna have to find those senators who, 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:12.280 assuming there is a confirmation hearing, that are reasonable enough 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:13.920 to say that this is not the guy you want 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:14.560 in that position. 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:20.040 So, after RFK was announced, the governor of Colorado, Jared Polis, 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.200 sent a post on accident said he was excited because 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.440 of a vaccine choice and he helped push back in 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:29.000 Colorado when it came to this particular topic. Can you 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:33.520 share your view as to why it's important for lots 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.320 of people to get vaccines? Because if it is a 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:39.640 parent's choice, and you know that parent chooses to get 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:43.159 their kid vaccinate against something, it's not necessarily that that 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:46.040 kid is actually protected if other kids aren't protected. 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:48.720 Exactly right. So if you step on a rusty nail 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:50.359 and you go to the doctor and you say I 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:52.800 don't want a tennis vaccine and you get tetanus, no 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:54.720 one's going to catch tennis from you. It's not a 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:58.720 contagious disease. Measles is, influenza is, and others are. So 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:02.119 a choice not to get vaccine is a choice not 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.119 only for yourself, but for those with whom you come 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:06.520 in contact. And remember there are about nine million people 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.080 in this country who can't be vaccinated because they're getting 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:12.119 chemotherapy for their cancer or immute suppressive therapy for the 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:15.240 autoimmune diseases. They depend on those around them to protect them. 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:18.480 Do we have any responsibility for our neighbors? It is 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:20.600 hard to watch. If you look what happened with Stars 0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:25.040 Kobe two, those counties that were generally under vaccinated had 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:27.879 much higher rates of hospitalization and death than those counties 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:31.120 that were highly vaccinated, And that affects the people. If 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:34.640 you're better off, actually being unvaccinated living in a highly 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:38.800 vaccinated community than being vaccinated living in a highly unvaccinated unity. 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:39.880 That's wild to hear. 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:43.280 What about the power of states and local municipalities over this? 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:45.399 For example, I have a kid in the New York 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:47.760 City public school district and he has to get a 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:49.840 certain number of vaccines in order to actually be able 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:52.600 to go to school. That's a way for them to say, Okay, 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:55.600 well we are making this choice, or for the parent 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:58.600 to make this choice to vaccinate vaccinate their kids against 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:01.080 these things. Isn't there power are there at the local level? 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:04.480 Yeah? Well, mandates are state ron I mean, there's not 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:08.000 federal mandates. I mean the school vaccine mandates are done 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.480 by states in different states actually have different vaccines that 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:13.520 day mandate. But we've had school mandates from the books 0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:16.880 for decades. There was about by nineteen sixty four to five, 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:20.639 about twenty five schools states had school mandates. By the 0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:22.840 mid seventies, that went up to forty. By nineteen eighty one, 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:26.040 all fifty states had school vaccine mandates. And with that, 0:25:26.119 --> 0:25:28.760 with the enforcement of school vaccine mandates, we went from 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:31.880 forty seven thousand cases of measles a year seventy five 0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:34.080 thousand cases of measles a year and one hundred and 0:25:34.119 --> 0:25:36.960 fifty deaths from measles a year to eliminating that disease 0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:39.200 from this country by the year two thousand. But it's 0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:41.880 come back in part because the critical percentage of parents 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:43.600 are choosing not to vaccinate their children. 0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:47.360 Yeah, numbers tell a story. Hey, listen, speaking of choice revaccination. 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:50.119 You know we do have choices what to eat, We 0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:54.720 have choices. McDonald's is clearly a favorite a president like 0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:55.479 Donald Trump. 0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:56.680 During the campaign. 0:25:56.680 --> 0:25:59.240 He even helps serve customers at one restaurant. I got 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:00.760 to say, I'm a fan of their fries. 0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:01.919 Full disclosure. 0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:04.560 We've seen Donald Trump and RFK Junior and Elon and 0:26:04.600 --> 0:26:06.840 others chowing down on McDonald's together. 0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:09.199 Oh, to be fair, rfk's holding the burger. He's not 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:09.800 chowing yet. 0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:11.640 Okay, so maybe he's just holding. 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:14.800 Maybe's a little osmosis going on there. Just got about 0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:17.080 thirty seconds here. I do think about the role of 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:20.719 Donald Trump, what impact he might have in terms of 0:26:21.040 --> 0:26:24.840 his thinking about health and medical care and all that 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:26.800 good stuff. I mean, we saw what he did during 0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:30.160 his first term with COVID and getting a vaccine, So 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:33.199 how do you think his impact might be on what 0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:34.240 goes on in this area? 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:37.680 Now, I think he's hard to predict Donald Trump, but 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:39.840 I think that scene, though, with him sitting there and 0:26:39.880 --> 0:26:42.760 Elon Musk and RFK Junior and Mike Johnson and others 0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:46.280 eating Donald's I think my take home from a message 0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:49.359 from that scene was Donald Trump telling Robert Kennedy Jr. 0:26:49.680 --> 0:26:50.680 You'll eat what I tell you. 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:55.199 To our thanks to doctor Paul Offitt, director of the 0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:58.560 Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital in Philadelphia. 0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:01.520 Still ahead on Bloomberg Business she calls herself the only 0:27:01.600 --> 0:27:04.320 Arab woman in the Middle East running a VC fund. 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.840 And she's investing in everything from agtech to AI. This 0:27:08.119 --> 0:27:08.800 is Bloomberg. 0:27:10.640 --> 0:27:14.480 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:17.800 each weekday starting a two pm Easter on applecar Play 0:27:17.800 --> 0:27:20.680 and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can 0:27:20.720 --> 0:27:23.959 also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:29.359 York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty Carol. 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:32.280 We know that Dubai is the Middle East main business hub, 0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:35.000 but get this, Abu Dhabi and Riad now each control 0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:38.119 over a trillion dollars in sovereign wealth, making them the 0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:39.919 biggest pools of capital in the world. 0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:43.320 It's massive, well talk about a viable competitor. That has 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:47.880 prompted firms like Blackrock CEO Larry Fink setting up operations 0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:50.760 in the two countries, and earlier this week Blackrock received 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:53.680 a commercial license to operate in Abu Dhabi. It's the 0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:56.000 latest sign that the asset manager is looking to deepen 0:27:56.040 --> 0:27:57.600 its ties across the region. 0:27:57.880 --> 0:27:59.680 Someone who's got her finger on the pulse of all 0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:01.720 things when it comes to capital in the Middle East 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:04.560 is North Swede. She's founder and managing partner at the 0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:08.760 UAE based international VC firm Global Ventures. Her company has 0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:11.639 got offices all over the region, including in Dubai, Cairo 0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:14.840 and riod And. Noor says she's the only Arab women 0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:17.080 in the Middle East running a VC fund. 0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:19.520 So last quarter was the first quarter where we had 0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:22.000 fifty one percent of venture dollars in the region actually 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:24.920 coming from abroad, So that ecosystem is going very. 0:28:24.840 --> 0:28:27.680 Quickly versus domestics. 0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:30.320 Domestically, which is usually I mean five years ago it 0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:32.640 was seventy five percent domestic. Now it's forty nine percent 0:28:32.640 --> 0:28:36.399 domestic domestic meaning regional vcs investing. So we have many 0:28:36.400 --> 0:28:38.840 of the international vcs looking at the region not just 0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:42.440 for regional opportunity, but for true innovation, which is different. 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:44.240 And you see that especially in the UAE. 0:28:44.360 --> 0:28:47.960 So in the UEA specifically, last year, seventy three percent 0:28:48.400 --> 0:28:51.240 of the GDP was non oil sector. So it's not 0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:53.160 that the region's trying to diverse. 0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:54.120 Say that again. 0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:56.800 The reason I think about that, I remember, I don't know, 0:28:56.840 --> 0:28:59.400 thirty years ago, like a national geographic and it just 0:28:59.440 --> 0:29:02.480 talked about the Middle East was thinking about kind of 0:29:02.520 --> 0:29:05.479 a non carbon based economy, like they knew things were 0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:07.240 going to change. Say that number again. 0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:09.880 So seventy three percent of ua GDP last year was 0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:12.600 non oil related. So when you think about what that means, 0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:15.960 it's not that the regions trying to diversify had diversified, 0:29:16.040 --> 0:29:18.880 or at least the UAE has Saudi's following suit and 0:29:18.920 --> 0:29:21.280 the next ones, and so it is really an innovation 0:29:21.360 --> 0:29:25.400 economy and knowledge economy moving towards you know, new sectors 0:29:25.480 --> 0:29:30.800 rather than just we're stuck in oil. So that correlated 0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.960 with how much international funding is coming in, really puts 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.920 us in a position where all sectors are innovative right now, 0:29:37.200 --> 0:29:39.400 we are leap flogging and some innovations where we haven't 0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:43.960 had legacy incumbents really you know, take over those sectors 0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:45.000 in the past. 0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:49.200 So what are the exciting areas in the economy that 0:29:49.240 --> 0:29:50.160 you're seeing right now? 0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:53.000 So right now, the two most exciting areas that we 0:29:53.040 --> 0:29:56.320 are focused on are supply chain. So anything that's supply 0:29:56.440 --> 0:29:59.520 chain technology focused really reinventing supply chain. So even if 0:29:59.520 --> 0:30:02.719 you think through my manufacturing, so where we've historically manufactured 0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:04.680 things around the world and then ship them, can you 0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:08.480 manufacture regionally? So we don't have incumbents in manufacturing. We've 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:10.640 never had a large manufacturing industry. It's such a small 0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:13.080 percentage GDP. But if you were to take the world's 0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:15.640 best technology today, what does that look like. It's added 0:30:15.680 --> 0:30:18.479 of manufacturing. It's three D printing. So we have companies 0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:21.560 in the region like IMENSA, which are generally just building 0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:25.200 the best in class technology globally, building the rule books 0:30:25.240 --> 0:30:28.479 globally to do spare part manufacturing using three D printing 0:30:28.560 --> 0:30:30.880 for oil and gas and other industries. 0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:32.200 And so we start thinking that what's going on. 0:30:32.800 --> 0:30:34.640 Haven't we had like talked about three D printing so 0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:36.320 many times the iterations the site. 0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:38.000 Yeah, there was the whole like consumer push. I was 0:30:38.040 --> 0:30:40.000 at CEES one year where there was like this whole 0:30:40.000 --> 0:30:43.720 section of like here the you know, plastic injected three 0:30:43.800 --> 0:30:46.960 D printers that can make whatever you design, and everyone's 0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:48.560 going to have one of these and they're going to 0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:49.640 be able to repair their own stuff. 0:30:51.000 --> 0:30:51.240 We're not. 0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:53.760 There's nobility, but we are so. I mean, even if 0:30:53.760 --> 0:30:56.720 you take a look at goodness, some makeup companies, the 0:30:57.200 --> 0:30:59.760 brushes that you can use for blush, those are for 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:04.400 a large company, us for your blush, sorry for your blush, 0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:08.440 all of our so we all look alive. But ultimately 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:10.120 those are large three D printed, so you can take 0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:11.960 a look at you don't know that it's three D printed, 0:31:12.280 --> 0:31:13.920 but a lot of those have been three D printed. 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:16.240 Now when you take a look at more industrial applications, 0:31:16.680 --> 0:31:19.560 so for example, the oil and gas industry has ninety 0:31:19.560 --> 0:31:22.560 billion dollars sitting in square parts, right, So these are 0:31:22.840 --> 0:31:25.960 made using raw materials, shipped across the world and then 0:31:26.080 --> 0:31:28.720 stored in a warehouse, draining working capital just in case 0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:31.680 they're needed. Twenty to thirty percent of each of that 0:31:31.720 --> 0:31:33.640 warehouse gets thrown away each year for HSU. 0:31:33.840 --> 0:31:35.440 So now you can do kind of just in time, just. 0:31:35.720 --> 0:31:39.200 In time manufacturing, not just in time inventory. So you've 0:31:39.240 --> 0:31:41.640 completely shifted that. And you said, is it cost effective? 0:31:41.800 --> 0:31:42.920 It's very cost effective. 0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:45.040 It's cheaper, especially because you're not shipping a half your 0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:48.160 cost the world. It's more sustainable, right, You're using new materials. 0:31:48.240 --> 0:31:50.160 So the reason it's really come forward to the last 0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:52.720 ten years is the material science has now allowed you 0:31:52.800 --> 0:31:56.320 to really use materials that are strong alloys, not just 0:31:56.520 --> 0:32:00.120 natural ones. So as you think through supply chains, it 0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:02.920 starts with manufacturing. Where are you making stuff? And then 0:32:02.960 --> 0:32:04.680 how are you shipping it? And how does your last 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:07.000 miole logistics look like? Can you use drones to deliver 0:32:07.360 --> 0:32:10.120 in parts of the world? So Global South generally doesn't 0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:13.080 have as much infrastructure in terms of roads infrastructure, so 0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:15.280 why would you ever use diesel trucks that are twenty 0:32:15.360 --> 0:32:20.160 years old on rickety roads in large, large economies, larger markets. 0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:23.000 Our geography is when you could use drones. 0:32:22.640 --> 0:32:24.000 To do be to be deliveries. 0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:27.320 So you think about how do you leap frog supply chains? 0:32:27.320 --> 0:32:29.080 How do you get to a world where five years 0:32:29.080 --> 0:32:33.280 from now it's unrecognizable five years ago, and that's where 0:32:33.280 --> 0:32:33.920 we're investing. 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:36.280 That's what we're seeing that. And then the other sector 0:32:36.400 --> 0:32:37.200 is really food. 0:32:37.000 --> 0:32:39.440 Security, So the whole world has had to push towards 0:32:39.440 --> 0:32:43.680 food security. The Mini region or the GCC both still 0:32:43.720 --> 0:32:46.440 import eighty five percent of the food. So if you 0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:49.560 think about how do we produce food, how do we 0:32:49.600 --> 0:32:52.040 move towards not just vertical farming as we've known it, 0:32:52.320 --> 0:32:55.400 but better versions of it. So we look at companies that, 0:32:55.440 --> 0:32:59.080 for example, reduce energy consumption for vertical farming or indoor 0:32:59.080 --> 0:33:01.640 farming by up to ninety percent because of the way 0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:04.600 they treat water, because of the material science to prove 0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:07.400 these farms, and now they're exporting this technology everywhere in 0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:09.600 the world. Fifteen different countries in the US are using 0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:13.000 this technology to reduce energy consumption for indoor farming so 0:33:13.040 --> 0:33:15.880 that you can have more sustainable food production. So when 0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:18.440 you think about food security, when you think about supply chain, 0:33:18.840 --> 0:33:21.120 our part of the world and MINA and then GCC 0:33:21.600 --> 0:33:24.960 is still nascent in that we don't have the legacy 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:28.920 incumbents and that industry sorted that you're trying to improve it. 0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:31.200 You're just trying to invent it, and so with that 0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:34.000 comes a lot of this innovation, the really quick adoption 0:33:34.360 --> 0:33:36.719 that allows you to leapfrog and create these new markets 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:39.600 with the legacy overhang to some of the legacy overhang. 0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:42.400 I'm I'm just curious that what the fund looks like 0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:44.880 right now, given that there are all these opportunities out there. 0:33:44.880 --> 0:33:46.680 But at the same time, what we've heard over the 0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:51.200 last few years is that with rates higher across the world, 0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:53.240 it's been tougher to raise money. You have four hundred 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:56.560 million dollars that you manage, how much of that is 0:33:56.640 --> 0:33:59.720 deployed right now versus how much you know you have 0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:00.640 on the sidelines. 0:34:00.880 --> 0:34:03.440 So we're deploying out of our third fund, which is 0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:07.080 a two hundred million lower fund, and we're about a 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:09.799 third way into deployment. Out of that fund, funds went 0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:11.759 and who are fully deployed, we're exiting them. We just 0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:14.000 had an exit two weeks ago. That's about twenty eight 0:34:14.000 --> 0:34:16.960 times money on our post seed position, eight times on 0:34:17.000 --> 0:34:19.680 our A position. So we're seeing a lot of innovation 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:20.960 in the regions start to materialize. 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:23.680 It's our sixth exit. For our young firm. 0:34:23.800 --> 0:34:26.560 To have that many exits behind us is a really 0:34:26.600 --> 0:34:29.200 good sign of the region's ability to materialize. 0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:31.360 Those who are the LPs, where are you getting the money? 0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:33.360 So it's half regional, half international. 0:34:34.320 --> 0:34:36.520 So we have we can't name them, but it's a 0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:39.160 lot of international LPs that are looking at the region. 0:34:39.480 --> 0:34:41.080 A lot of them it's their first time investing in 0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:44.040 the region. Family offices and institutions, any sovereign wealth funds 0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:49.799 internationally or regionally. Internationally internationally one pension fund and large 0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:52.239 financial institutions and regionally regionally both. 0:34:52.360 --> 0:34:52.560 Yeah. 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:54.360 So we were about the last first fund in the 0:34:54.400 --> 0:34:59.120 region six years ago. Until then they had invested mainly internationally. 0:34:59.560 --> 0:35:03.000 We WEREDQ nowlinates first fund in the region. So we 0:35:03.080 --> 0:35:06.960 work with all the regional sovereigns in smaller capacities. They 0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:08.440 are looking at the region to say where can we 0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:10.640 enable growth because it's for them it's not just capital, 0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:11.880 it's also economic growth. 0:35:11.960 --> 0:35:14.920 They can put their money back into their own economy. 0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:16.960 Yeah, it's similar to the pension funds and thennowments in 0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:20.080 the US how they enabled the venture ecosystem. In Europe, 0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:22.600 they enabled the venture ecosystem and then they're able to 0:35:22.800 --> 0:35:25.680 enable economic growth along with financial returns. 0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:27.880 What would surprise people that what's going on in the 0:35:27.880 --> 0:35:29.239 Middle East in Africa right now. 0:35:30.440 --> 0:35:33.200 I think it's interesting to witness in some parts of relief. 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:35.440 So in the UAE, for example, we have a lot 0:35:35.440 --> 0:35:37.719 of second and third time international founders have come in 0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:40.319 in the last three years and building new companies there. 0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:42.439 So they had their first exit in the US maybe 0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:44.080 or in Europe, and then as they get to their 0:35:44.280 --> 0:35:46.320 second and third ideas and they want to really address 0:35:46.480 --> 0:35:49.719 the global South because that's the fastest economic growth over 0:35:49.760 --> 0:35:52.280 the next ten to twenty years. Is more the global 0:35:52.320 --> 0:35:54.480 South than the US and Europe. We have the world's 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:58.319 youngest population. We're sixty percent under age thirty and so 0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:01.000 as you have this population starting to grow and build. 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:03.759 This is across Mid East Africa and Southeast age is 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:06.480 also very young, so I used to have these populations growing. 0:36:06.480 --> 0:36:09.640 The economic growth that is ahead of us is tremendous 0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:11.880 and so being able to capitalize on that. You have 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:14.640 many second and third time founders that are moving back 0:36:14.719 --> 0:36:17.120 specifically to the UAE or moving to the UAE. 0:36:17.600 --> 0:36:19.720 They may not be from the region and building new companies. 0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:23.200 Nor what assist is the governments that you over in 0:36:23.239 --> 0:36:28.279 the Middle East providing to support those founders, whether it's 0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:31.400 as an incubator or something to kind of there is 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:33.080 ailing and attract them back. 0:36:33.360 --> 0:36:36.200 So there are several incubators accelerators, and there's Hub seventy 0:36:36.239 --> 0:36:39.240 one and OBAD which was Mobile de La funded and founded. 0:36:39.320 --> 0:36:41.880 There's Area twenty seventy one in the UAE, which in Deviai, 0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:44.719 which is from the Duay Future Foundation. But I think 0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:47.879 the government's forward thinking this is the most important thing. 0:36:47.920 --> 0:36:50.880 So you were talking about AI earlier. We've had a 0:36:50.920 --> 0:36:52.800 Ministry of AI since twenty seventeen. 0:36:53.160 --> 0:36:57.200 Walk us through some of maybe your newest investments in 0:36:57.280 --> 0:37:00.640 some of the different areas you play in fintech, digital health, mobility, 0:37:00.719 --> 0:37:01.440 future of work. 0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:02.640 All of these are fascinating. 0:37:03.120 --> 0:37:06.520 Well, they're all industries that are right for disruption. We 0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:09.320 started investing in twenty eighteen, and back then our heavy 0:37:09.320 --> 0:37:11.719 focus was fintech and it was the argument of the 0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:14.600 region was still eighty five percent unbanked and you were 0:37:14.640 --> 0:37:15.080 never going to. 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:16.600 Have really in the region. 0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:17.120 In the region. 0:37:17.200 --> 0:37:17.480 Wow. 0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:20.480 So with pockets of difference like maybe Dubai or the 0:37:20.560 --> 0:37:22.960 UAU was a bit different, but the broader four hundred 0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:24.759 million people living across me now were eighty five. 0:37:24.960 --> 0:37:27.839 Where was that concentrated though? Was that in like where 0:37:27.880 --> 0:37:28.839 geographically were I. 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:33.560 Mean that's across Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Algeria, Jordan, so just generally. 0:37:33.280 --> 0:37:36.279 So not everybody's rich royalty, right, No, that that would 0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:38.400 be very But I think there's an assumption. 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:40.560 I know that's a stupid question, but I just think 0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:41.000 there's an. 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:45.520 Assumption that the wealth permeates every everywhere. 0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:47.840 So I think it's it's interesting. 0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:51.000 You know, if you think Europe, you have Sweden, and 0:37:51.040 --> 0:37:55.040 then you have Greece, and then and that spread of 0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:59.760 GDP goes from thirty thousand to ninety thousand dollars across 0:38:00.200 --> 0:38:04.040 the region is similar, but even more extreme, more extream. 0:38:04.280 --> 0:38:05.960 So if you think of Syria, if you think of 0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:08.239 love and on, you're in the few thousand dollars a 0:38:08.280 --> 0:38:10.759 year gdpeper capita. And then if you think about cut lady, 0:38:10.840 --> 0:38:12.839 or in the ninety thousand dollars, and if you think 0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:15.560 about the population dispressment between those, it's not equal. 0:38:16.320 --> 0:38:16.799 Right, So you. 0:38:16.760 --> 0:38:20.160 Actually have one hundred million people in Egypt, you have 0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:23.359 forty million, not even forty million in Saudi Arabia, right, 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:26.240 you have ten million, less than ten mine in the UAE. 0:38:26.480 --> 0:38:29.520 So you hear about the ones that are exciting and 0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:33.200 innovation and leading the way and the largest sovereignal funds 0:38:33.200 --> 0:38:33.600 in the world. 0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:36.960 Right, But a lot of people don't live within that realm. 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:39.760 So when we talk about unbanked at eighty five percent, 0:38:39.760 --> 0:38:41.920 you're not talking about a small pocket. You're talking about 0:38:42.239 --> 0:38:45.800 a lot of rural Saudi most of Egypt, most of Jordan. 0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:49.400 And so when we brought fintech into the ecosystem alongside 0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:52.040 the regulators and the governments in twenty eighteen, that number 0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:55.240 shrunk by about fifteen percent for five years because suddenly 0:38:55.239 --> 0:38:59.080 people went straight to fintech, right, so no one built banks. Yeah, 0:38:59.080 --> 0:39:03.080 so you're not going to s and similarly exactly so 0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:05.320 it's a similar thing. So and then healthcare is the 0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:07.360 same way. So in healthcare, we have one doctor of 0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:10.120 per thousand people. In the US, you're about four doctors 0:39:10.160 --> 0:39:12.360 per thousand people. So if you come to the conclusion 0:39:12.360 --> 0:39:15.600 of you'll never have enough doctors, you'll never have enough hospital. 0:39:16.040 --> 0:39:17.359 So how do you use health tech to. 0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:20.200 Give primary access to care? How do you use mobile phones? 0:39:20.200 --> 0:39:22.520 We have the highest digital penetration in the world for 0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:25.080 mobile phones and social media usage, so how do you 0:39:25.160 --> 0:39:27.040 use those to enable people to have access to health care? 0:39:27.280 --> 0:39:29.759 And then you take that same thinking philosophy of how 0:39:29.800 --> 0:39:32.320 do you use technology to leapfrog and provide basic access 0:39:32.560 --> 0:39:33.480 not just to fintech and. 0:39:33.480 --> 0:39:35.920 Health tech, but also to food, to education. 0:39:36.080 --> 0:39:39.439 We have the highest percentage of population in school age 0:39:39.520 --> 0:39:41.800 in the world, so we're at thirty four percent of 0:39:41.800 --> 0:39:44.680 our population school age in Europe that's about twelve percent. 0:39:45.160 --> 0:39:47.279 So how do you provide education and it's going to 0:39:47.280 --> 0:39:48.280 be technology enabled? 0:39:48.719 --> 0:39:50.880 Where do those students go when they're done being students? 0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:52.600 So they stay in the region. 0:39:52.840 --> 0:39:53.879 A lot of them stay in the region. 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:56.680 Well, many of them don't have second passports, so they're 0:39:56.719 --> 0:39:58.120 not going to be able to leave the region. 0:39:58.880 --> 0:39:59.640 So when you think. 0:39:59.520 --> 0:40:02.960 About it, that's why you have such an emphasis right 0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:06.279 now on entrepreneurship. So our youth unemployment is one of 0:40:06.320 --> 0:40:08.960 the highest in the world, because what is it. It 0:40:10.000 --> 0:40:12.440 ranges from twenty five to thirty five percent depending on 0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:15.360 who you askah and the country, and that's. 0:40:15.160 --> 0:40:16.360 Been a concern of the governments. 0:40:16.400 --> 0:40:19.080 Then yes, so I think that's part of how do 0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:22.320 you have these people create jobs, participate in the SME sectors, 0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:24.560 the SEME sector is ninety percent of the GDP in 0:40:24.560 --> 0:40:27.719 the region, and become productive members small many of enterprise. 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:28.440 Yes small me to dementators. 0:40:28.880 --> 0:40:32.120 So that is the focus and then hence the entrepreneurship 0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:35.279 push and the innovation push. And over the last five 0:40:35.360 --> 0:40:39.000 years we've seen really a move from emulation so Uber 0:40:39.040 --> 0:40:41.640 for the region Kareem which then was acquired by Uber, 0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:44.120 to all the way to innovation, which is how do 0:40:44.160 --> 0:40:46.120 you sold for supply chains which we talked about earlier, 0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:48.799 how do you sold for food security and agutec and 0:40:48.840 --> 0:40:52.080 really innovate with the IP, with the research and with 0:40:52.120 --> 0:40:54.759 the ability to scale those companies globally. So in our 0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:58.560 portfolio of sixty one companies, twelve now have more revenues 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:00.960 in Europe in the US than in the region. And 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:02.759 when we invested, they were just in the region. And 0:41:02.800 --> 0:41:04.839 you think about that and you say that's because that's 0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:07.919 real innovation. You're thinking outside the box, or you're thinking 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:10.239 there is no box. There are no legacy incumbents to 0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:11.640 compete with, So how do we. 0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:13.920 Solve You know, I said in teas that we were 0:41:13.920 --> 0:41:15.360 going to ask about what does it mean when a 0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:17.800 black rock moves more aggressively into the region. 0:41:17.920 --> 0:41:19.959 What does it mean when these global. 0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:23.719 Whether it's US based, European based, what have you move in, 0:41:24.360 --> 0:41:27.080 you know, to increase ties, financial ties in the region. 0:41:27.080 --> 0:41:28.680 They see opportunity. 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:29.279 Good for you, bad for you? 0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:31.520 What does it mean great for us? 0:41:31.640 --> 0:41:34.920 It's it's really a move into the region, moving capital, 0:41:34.960 --> 0:41:36.880 finding opportunity, helping more money around. 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:37.280 Right. 0:41:37.360 --> 0:41:39.560 So venture in the region is two point six billion 0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:41.600 dollars last year, our entire venture ecosystem. 0:41:41.680 --> 0:41:42.000 That's it. 0:41:42.080 --> 0:41:42.400 That's it. 0:41:42.880 --> 0:41:45.000 The world for Contact was a two hundred and eighty 0:41:45.000 --> 0:41:48.000 five billion, right. But where very pleased because six years 0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:49.399 ago when I started the firm, we were at four 0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:51.880 hundred million. So to move from four hundred million to 0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:54.919 two point six billion is significant. It's still a drop 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:57.080 in the bucket. It's like doing venture in the Bay 0:41:57.080 --> 0:42:00.400 Area in the seventies, right when founders need a lot 0:42:00.400 --> 0:42:02.759 of handholding. There was real innovation, there's a lot of 0:42:02.760 --> 0:42:05.640 government support, and you're trying to move this ecoystem forward 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:06.360 and it's still small. 0:42:06.800 --> 0:42:07.480 That's where we are. 0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:10.279 So it's really only upside from here. And I think 0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:12.399 a lot of the international religio students see that move 0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:14.600 to the region, see the economic growth coming in the 0:42:14.640 --> 0:42:16.880 global South and really want to be positioned there to 0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:17.360 leverage it. 0:42:17.440 --> 0:42:19.920 Our thanks to North Swayede, founder and managing partner at 0:42:19.920 --> 0:42:23.280 the UAE based international venture capital firm Global Ventures. 0:42:23.320 --> 0:42:24.920 And that wraps up our first hour of the weekend 0:42:25.040 --> 0:42:27.200 edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:27.760 Ahead. 0:42:27.760 --> 0:42:29.640 In our next hour, we take a break from the 0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:32.279 heavy stuff. Don't you need this? I need it, and 0:42:32.360 --> 0:42:34.920 perhaps allfer up at the same time, some ideas for 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:36.799 your upcoming Thanksgiving festivities. 0:42:36.960 --> 0:42:37.680 Cut to the chase. 0:42:37.760 --> 0:42:39.840 Tim, We're talking beverages from. 0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:43.640 The enslaved man who taught Jack Daniel, Yes that Jack Daniel, 0:42:43.760 --> 0:42:46.840 how to make whiskey to enjoying some cocktails in a cant. 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:50.239 Plus for we non alcoholic types, or should I say you, 0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:53.760 Tim raising my hand, Yes, you are how one coffee 0:42:53.840 --> 0:42:56.480 chain is growing by franchising in small towns and becoming 0:42:56.560 --> 0:42:59.479 part of their communities. This is Bloomberg Business Week. 0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:02.960 I'm Carol and I'm Tim Steneveek. This is Bloomberg. 0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:11.799 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:43:11.880 --> 0:43:15.120 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter Listen 0:43:15.160 --> 0:43:17.319 on Apple car play and and Broyd Auto with a 0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:22.240 Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube. 0:43:21.840 --> 0:43:23.480 Plenty a head in our second hour of the weekend 0:43:23.600 --> 0:43:27.120 edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including with Thanksgiving just around 0:43:27.160 --> 0:43:30.520 the corner, maybe you are planning your menus, including your 0:43:30.520 --> 0:43:33.239 cocktail and drink offerings for friends and family, and so 0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:36.040 this hour we tap into some perfect drinks and it's 0:43:36.080 --> 0:43:36.880 not all alcohol. 0:43:37.280 --> 0:43:40.200 We talk with the CEO of Ziggy's Coffee on managing 0:43:40.239 --> 0:43:44.200 economic challenges in the specialty coffee space and how sometimes 0:43:44.239 --> 0:43:48.400 smaller is better. Plus bringing the party anywhere with cocktails 0:43:48.400 --> 0:43:49.680 in a can sounds like a plan. 0:43:49.960 --> 0:43:52.880 First up this hour, a fascinating story about the enslaved 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:56.120 man who taught Jack Daniel, yes that Jack Daniel, how 0:43:56.160 --> 0:43:59.240 to make whiskey and later became the first African American 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:01.719 master distill at the Jack Daniels Distillery. 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:05.040 That story caught the attention of Fawn Weaver. Fawn's the 0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:08.120 CEO of Uncle Nearest It's the Whiskey company named after 0:44:08.160 --> 0:44:11.320 the enslaved man. She's also the author of Love and Whiskey, 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:14.840 The remarkable true story of Jack Daniel, his master distiller, 0:44:14.960 --> 0:44:19.160 Nearest Green and the improbable rise of Uncle Nearest tell 0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:22.040 us all about Nearest Green, the namesake of your whiskey. 0:44:22.080 --> 0:44:25.040 This story goes back more than one hundred and fifty years. 0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:26.880 Absolutely. 0:44:27.160 --> 0:44:30.920 Nearest Green is the first known African American master distiller. 0:44:31.320 --> 0:44:35.600 He was the teacher and mentor of a young Jack Daniel. 0:44:35.760 --> 0:44:40.480 He later became his first master distiller, master distiller for 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:45.200 Jack Daniel Distillery Number seven, and until nineteen seventy eight, 0:44:45.520 --> 0:44:50.480 when Jack Daniel and his own family essentially had stewardship 0:44:50.640 --> 0:44:54.319 of that company, Nearest Green and his boys, George and 0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:57.799 Eli were always a part of the story. Their significance, 0:44:57.840 --> 0:45:02.640 the importance of the process that Africans brought to America. 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:06.520 That is, taking a traditional bourbon distill it, running it 0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:09.400 through sugar maple charcoal before putting it in a barrel, 0:45:09.600 --> 0:45:13.640 which distinguishes Kentucky bourbon from Tennessee whiskey, even though both 0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:17.080 are a straight bourbon whiskey. It's what distinguishes essentially the 0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:20.759 styles that the two different states make, and that process 0:45:21.040 --> 0:45:24.320 was brought in by the Africans. Jack and his family 0:45:24.400 --> 0:45:28.960 always credited Africans for bringing that in. The enslaved people 0:45:29.080 --> 0:45:32.400 is exactly how they put it and so well. Actually, 0:45:32.440 --> 0:45:34.560 at that time they called it, They said the slaves 0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:37.760 brought it in. We now refer to them as enslaved people. 0:45:38.160 --> 0:45:41.319 But that is a story that continued until seventy eight. 0:45:41.680 --> 0:45:45.719 Then between seventy eight and seventy nine, after Jack's own 0:45:45.800 --> 0:45:50.400 family was no longer overseeing that company, the story disappeared. 0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:53.799 And it wasn't until twenty seventeen. 0:45:53.600 --> 0:45:57.560 When I introduced new research that the world really began 0:45:57.680 --> 0:46:01.560 to know what this story was, how remarkable it was, 0:46:02.040 --> 0:46:04.960 and that story is now and that research is now 0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:05.759 contained in my. 0:46:05.719 --> 0:46:06.720 Book Love and Whiskey. 0:46:06.920 --> 0:46:09.280 What else did you learn in terms of doing that progress? 0:46:09.320 --> 0:46:12.040 I think it's so important. I guess maybe the older 0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:15.440 I get, I feel like history is so much more 0:46:15.440 --> 0:46:18.080 important to me and understanding whether it's the history of 0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:21.799 our country, the history of my background, the history of 0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:24.680 just so many different aspects of our society, Understanding it 0:46:24.719 --> 0:46:27.600 so that I can hopefully have a smarter view going forward. 0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:30.560 But as you wrote your book and you did this research, 0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:32.839 tell us about some of the other things you found out. 0:46:33.840 --> 0:46:37.080 Absolutely, first, I should say what the research was, and 0:46:37.280 --> 0:46:41.480 it was not like research. I interviewed about one hundred 0:46:41.560 --> 0:46:46.719 of nears Green's descendants, Jack Daniel's descendants African American elders 0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:50.440 of Lynchburg, Tennessee, anywhere between seventy five years old and 0:46:50.480 --> 0:46:53.920 one hundred and six. Neares Green's granddaughter was still alive 0:46:54.360 --> 0:46:59.279 when I arrived in Lynchburg. Jack's eldest descendant was one 0:46:59.320 --> 0:47:02.520 old when I arrived, and she passed away at one 0:47:02.560 --> 0:47:05.560 oh four, and her faculties were fully intact, And so 0:47:05.680 --> 0:47:09.480 I had the benefit of being able to learn from 0:47:09.520 --> 0:47:12.000 so many people. And one of the things that I 0:47:12.120 --> 0:47:15.200 found that I think is so relevant to the conversations 0:47:15.440 --> 0:47:18.840 we're having in America right now is at the time 0:47:18.920 --> 0:47:23.000 when Jack Daniel was alive and he ran the distillery, 0:47:23.040 --> 0:47:26.759 and then after his descendants, they all worked side by 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:30.560 side with either nearest nearest boys or nearest grandchildren. And 0:47:30.800 --> 0:47:33.840 one of the things I found fascinating is the percentage 0:47:33.880 --> 0:47:36.280 of African Americans in Lynchburg. 0:47:36.239 --> 0:47:37.320 Was not that great. 0:47:37.719 --> 0:47:40.400 Yet all of the African American elders tell me that 0:47:40.520 --> 0:47:44.680 worked at Jack Daniels that the workforce was about fifty 0:47:44.719 --> 0:47:48.799 percent African American. And the only way I could explain that, 0:47:48.840 --> 0:47:51.359 the only way it made sense to me, is that 0:47:51.600 --> 0:47:56.719 because Jack and his family hired based on skill set, 0:47:56.920 --> 0:48:01.560 and they paid based on tenure, not on color. They 0:48:01.640 --> 0:48:05.719 saw complete equality between the two groups of people that 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:10.560 that just spread around this area of outside of Lynchburg, Tennessee. 0:48:10.800 --> 0:48:13.640 And you had African Americans coming in here and saying, hey, 0:48:13.680 --> 0:48:17.400 I hear y'all have jobs and we're treated fairly. And 0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:21.839 so when after prohibition, prohibition shut down the distillery here 0:48:22.200 --> 0:48:27.480 for thirty years, and after Prohibition there, I mean thousands 0:48:27.520 --> 0:48:31.439 of distilleries shuttered their doors and never reopened. But here 0:48:31.440 --> 0:48:35.480 it comes Jack Daniels roaring back with an enormous amount 0:48:35.480 --> 0:48:38.000 of power. And I have to believe it's because they 0:48:38.000 --> 0:48:41.759 were always pulling from the entire work pool that was available. 0:48:42.000 --> 0:48:45.440 And I think that that's something that we can absolutely 0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:49.200 learn from today. But also this notion that in the 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:52.920 nineteenth century you had in the Deep South, I mean, 0:48:52.960 --> 0:48:56.400 we're right above the Alabama border, in the Deep South, 0:48:56.920 --> 0:49:00.440 you had equality between blacks and whites and the work place. 0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:03.680 That is something that we're still trying to figure out 0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:04.399 how to do now. 0:49:04.600 --> 0:49:07.000 Yeah, I'm kind of glad you went there, because I 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:09.320 do feel like it's kind of amazing right that we 0:49:09.719 --> 0:49:13.120 were there, and then we went backwards, and I would 0:49:13.160 --> 0:49:15.880 safe to say with some of the recent rulings, and 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:18.239 we talk a lot about what's going on with colleges 0:49:18.320 --> 0:49:20.360 and college applications and so on and so forth, but we 0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:24.240 still talk about the lack of diversity in our world. 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:26.160 What is it that continues to hold it back? 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:30.239 Well, the irony is is I think that if we 0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:32.920 fix the gender problem, we'll fix the race problem. And 0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:37.239 by that I mean women are fifty percent of this population, 0:49:37.400 --> 0:49:40.000 but when you go into those boardrooms, when you go 0:49:40.080 --> 0:49:43.520 into those c suites, we are a fraction of the 0:49:43.560 --> 0:49:46.319 percentage of those that are in there. And we, by 0:49:46.480 --> 0:49:49.359 nature are more empathetic. 0:49:50.040 --> 0:49:51.360 It is how we're wired. 0:49:51.760 --> 0:49:54.120 And so I do believe that if we can fix 0:49:54.160 --> 0:49:57.760 the gender issue, that we will naturally fix the race 0:49:57.800 --> 0:50:01.520 issue because you have more women, see, and they're going 0:50:01.560 --> 0:50:05.480 to be looking around and saying, hey, why is everyone 0:50:05.520 --> 0:50:06.080 in this room? 0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:06.319 Why? 0:50:07.239 --> 0:50:07.479 Yeah? 0:50:08.400 --> 0:50:11.440 Yeah, And those are things that I do believe women 0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:14.719 pay attention to. But men have run the suite sea 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:18.080 suites for so long, and I think that that is 0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:20.759 what continues to hold us back as we need to 0:50:20.800 --> 0:50:23.560 see that fifty to fifty equality in those c suites 0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:26.279 and the rest I think will start to work itself out. 0:50:27.160 --> 0:50:28.960 I've been doing this a fair amount of time, and 0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:31.560 I feel like easily for twenty years have been talking 0:50:31.560 --> 0:50:33.480 about putting more women in the C suite, and I 0:50:33.520 --> 0:50:35.960 still count, certainly with the big publicly. 0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:37.640 Held companies, how many CEOs they are. 0:50:37.680 --> 0:50:39.560 I know, when you get into smaller business and so 0:50:39.560 --> 0:50:43.200 on and so forth, women certainly have a lot more progress. 0:50:44.440 --> 0:50:46.400 But we're still talking about this, and I'm not quite 0:50:46.400 --> 0:50:49.400 sure why it just hasn't turned yet. 0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:52.440 I wish I could answer that question. 0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:56.440 Even when you look at just education in this country, 0:50:56.600 --> 0:51:00.839 by far, it's been black women who are literally take 0:51:00.880 --> 0:51:05.000 it all, the master's degrees, the PhDs, And when you're 0:51:05.000 --> 0:51:07.840 looking at these numbers, you have to then start to wonder, 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:11.920 why aren't there more than leading that have done so 0:51:12.200 --> 0:51:15.040 much work to get there? And I don't have that 0:51:15.160 --> 0:51:18.200 answer other than the fact that of how this country began, 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:21.840 and we have to remember that. And I say it 0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:27.319 jokingly but not really. There are literally cognacs older than 0:51:27.360 --> 0:51:31.640 our country, and so when you put it in that context, 0:51:31.680 --> 0:51:35.960 you have to remember that children make foolish decisions. Youth 0:51:36.160 --> 0:51:38.760 make foolish decisions, and when you look at the age 0:51:38.760 --> 0:51:42.080 of our country, we're essentially adolescents compared to the rest 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:44.879 of the world, and so we're still trying. 0:51:44.600 --> 0:51:46.080 To figure out a lot. 0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:49.960 And I just hope that we continue to have patience 0:51:50.000 --> 0:51:53.400 and grace because traveling this world, I know without question 0:51:53.760 --> 0:51:56.520 that we are the greatest nation in the world, without question, 0:51:57.000 --> 0:51:59.640 and we just have to do the work of being 0:51:59.719 --> 0:52:00.919 better ourselves. 0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:03.080 And we've come a long way. 0:52:03.160 --> 0:52:06.400 If we go back sixty years, I could have been 0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:09.480 water host literally in the middle of the street and 0:52:09.520 --> 0:52:10.680 no one been charged for it. 0:52:10.760 --> 0:52:11.040 Wow. 0:52:11.719 --> 0:52:14.640 So we are advancing right, and we do have to 0:52:14.680 --> 0:52:19.280 give ourselves grace about that. While we continue to challenge 0:52:19.280 --> 0:52:21.960 our country, we need to also honor the progress. 0:52:22.360 --> 0:52:23.840 We want to talk a little bit more about whiskey, 0:52:23.880 --> 0:52:27.920 but your own path. I mean, you wrote Happy Wives Club, 0:52:29.280 --> 0:52:32.120 One woman's worldwide Search for the Secrets of a Great Marriage. 0:52:32.120 --> 0:52:33.600 That was back in twenty fourteen. 0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:37.560 You mentioned the book on whiskey that you have written, 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:40.400 Love and Whiskey, The Remarkable True Story of Jack Daniel. 0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:43.600 You're a ted speaker, you are on the board of 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:47.160 Endeavor Group Holdings. I'm sure I'm leaving something out there's. 0:52:46.960 --> 0:52:49.680 Another book in there, the Argument Free Marriage twenty eight 0:52:49.719 --> 0:52:52.360 days to creating the marriage you've always wanted with the 0:52:52.400 --> 0:52:53.279 spouse you already have. 0:52:54.719 --> 0:52:59.080 You're super fascinating and interesting. I am curious about on 0:52:59.120 --> 0:53:01.520 the board of Endeavor Group Holdings, and I do think 0:53:01.560 --> 0:53:04.200 about the importance of we are in the media, the 0:53:04.239 --> 0:53:09.640 importance of media, movies, entertainment in terms of pushing and 0:53:09.680 --> 0:53:15.360 helping things change, bring about change. I am curious about 0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:18.520 your role at Endeavor does how much that is a 0:53:18.520 --> 0:53:21.400 big part of the conversation, the importance of what we 0:53:21.440 --> 0:53:22.000 see up on. 0:53:22.000 --> 0:53:24.120 Screens, big screens, little screens, what we. 0:53:24.080 --> 0:53:27.760 See out there, and helping make people think differently about 0:53:27.800 --> 0:53:29.920 what society where we need to move towards. 0:53:30.239 --> 0:53:33.400 Absolutely, I've been on the board of Endeavor since prior 0:53:33.480 --> 0:53:36.600 to it going public, and I will tell you being 0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:39.400 in those boardrooms, I would put my money on our Emmanuel, 0:53:39.440 --> 0:53:41.839 Patrick Weisall and Mark Shapiro every day of the week 0:53:41.880 --> 0:53:45.839 and twice on Sunday. Their ability to understand entertainment and 0:53:45.960 --> 0:53:48.000 content is something that is. 0:53:47.920 --> 0:53:50.960 Pretty unparallel in the industry. 0:53:51.080 --> 0:53:53.600 I know a lot of the CEOs of the entertainment 0:53:53.640 --> 0:53:57.640 studios and the other agencies and things of that nature, 0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:02.759 and the way they look at bringing diversity to the forefront. 0:54:03.160 --> 0:54:05.480 They really are ahead of the curve. 0:54:05.320 --> 0:54:08.799 And how they look at that and how they're positioning that, 0:54:09.120 --> 0:54:12.480 and how they're thinking about even packaging different deals together 0:54:12.880 --> 0:54:16.080 so that we can move our country forward, but not 0:54:16.160 --> 0:54:19.560 even just our country, because our entertainment that we put 0:54:19.560 --> 0:54:23.719 out of America goes around the world. It influences how 0:54:23.719 --> 0:54:27.320 the entire world sees us. So if there's any area, 0:54:27.560 --> 0:54:31.360 any industry in that's coming out of America that is 0:54:31.440 --> 0:54:35.320 the most important for progress, it would absolutely be the 0:54:35.440 --> 0:54:40.600 entertainment industry because people mirror what they do in their 0:54:40.680 --> 0:54:43.320 countries based on what they're seeing in our entertainment. 0:54:43.760 --> 0:54:45.520 Hey, fun, I want to go back to your path 0:54:45.800 --> 0:54:48.160 and how you got to where you are today and 0:54:48.200 --> 0:54:50.920 sort of like understand how you've been able to pivot 0:54:51.239 --> 0:54:53.680 and kind of play in all these different areas because 0:54:54.160 --> 0:54:59.480 you've been doing restaurant, food and beverage, real estate, you're 0:54:59.480 --> 0:55:03.200 an author, you're on the board of Endeavor, as we mentioned, 0:55:03.920 --> 0:55:07.520 and then whiskey help us understand how you can how 0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:10.680 you know as somebody yeah, how somebody goes yeah and 0:55:10.719 --> 0:55:12.320 he's able to play in all these different places. 0:55:13.120 --> 0:55:15.560 You know, I think a lot of people box themselves 0:55:15.560 --> 0:55:18.200 in and they don't really see the overlap and so 0:55:18.239 --> 0:55:21.279 many different things. So my first company, almost thirty years ago, 0:55:21.800 --> 0:55:24.759 was a public relations and special events firm. And if 0:55:24.800 --> 0:55:27.880 you look at the way that we've built Uncle Nearest 0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:32.680 into the fastest growing bourbon and American whiskey. 0:55:32.320 --> 0:55:34.799 And US history and some of the other accolades and 0:55:34.840 --> 0:55:35.399 things of that. 0:55:35.360 --> 0:55:38.400 Nature, one of the things that you will find is 0:55:37.960 --> 0:55:42.239 is that our company has grown really going directly to 0:55:42.360 --> 0:55:46.320 the people through unearned media, through through the press. 0:55:46.560 --> 0:55:49.360 Because I can't spend one hundred million dollars like my 0:55:49.440 --> 0:55:50.279 competitors can. 0:55:51.080 --> 0:55:54.200 I can't go out there and you know, buy menu 0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:57.400 placements like they do. I just came back from London 0:55:57.680 --> 0:56:00.640 and they'll spend fifty thousand dollars to I am Menu 0:56:00.760 --> 0:56:02.960 so that they have all their different alcohols on there 0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:03.800 for a year. 0:56:04.200 --> 0:56:05.080 I can't do that. 0:56:05.360 --> 0:56:07.480 But what I can do is I can tell the 0:56:07.520 --> 0:56:11.000 story of Uncle Ners and our brands to Bloomberg and 0:56:11.440 --> 0:56:11.960 I can do that. 0:56:12.080 --> 0:56:15.200 So that's literally everything I've ever done. 0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:18.560 Any company I've ever been involved in, there has always 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:22.440 been two through lines. One is they've been built utilizing 0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:27.120 earned media, being able to the power of storytelling. Consumers do, 0:56:27.239 --> 0:56:30.960 in fact care about stories, and quite frankly, they prefer 0:56:31.040 --> 0:56:35.840 the stories to be real, and so to dive into 0:56:35.920 --> 0:56:40.520 research that I've done for every book has been consistent. 0:56:40.600 --> 0:56:43.080 But the other thing that you'll find with the three 0:56:43.120 --> 0:56:46.080 books that I've written and the Ted Talk, I'm always 0:56:46.160 --> 0:56:49.759 talking about love and what our society has done is 0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:53.000 decided we have our work life, we have our personal life. 0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:55.920 Love exists in our personal life, but it does not 0:56:56.080 --> 0:56:59.279 exist in our work life. And that simply isn't realistic. 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:03.200 You need to that has to carry throughout everything. You 0:57:03.239 --> 0:57:05.319 have to love your work. You have to love the 0:57:05.360 --> 0:57:07.560 people that you work around, or you're going to have 0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:08.600 a miserable existence. 0:57:08.640 --> 0:57:10.799 Twelve hours a day or however many hours do you work. 0:57:11.200 --> 0:57:14.440 Amen, Because I love my job. I love the people 0:57:14.480 --> 0:57:17.720 I work with. I know seriously, seriously, and if you know, 0:57:17.800 --> 0:57:19.840 you walk in and you're like, Okay, this is pretty 0:57:19.880 --> 0:57:22.680 cool stuff. One more minute left here. I'm going to 0:57:22.720 --> 0:57:27.840 your website. I'm looking at you've got old fashioned cocktail kits. 0:57:28.080 --> 0:57:30.640 I am a whiskey sour kind of girl. Something my 0:57:30.720 --> 0:57:33.440 dad used to make when we were growing up. Believe 0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:36.760 it or not, tell us about we're Bloomberg too. Just 0:57:36.800 --> 0:57:39.560 real quickly, last minute kind of growth that you're seeing in. 0:57:39.560 --> 0:57:42.840 Your business, Oh, Uncle Ners, it's phenomenal. 0:57:42.880 --> 0:57:45.080 The industry and this is a whole other conversation, but 0:57:45.120 --> 0:57:46.720 the industry is down. 0:57:46.600 --> 0:57:48.040 Overall double digits. 0:57:48.360 --> 0:57:50.840 The on premise, which is bars and restaurants, are down 0:57:50.880 --> 0:57:51.840 eight point eight percent. 0:57:52.120 --> 0:57:55.680 Uncle Nerross is up fifty five percent. And I believe 0:57:55.680 --> 0:57:56.320 that that has a. 0:57:56.240 --> 0:57:58.520 Lot to do with the fact that people are realizing, boy, 0:57:58.600 --> 0:58:01.680 Uncle Nerors tastes really good old fashion. It's really good 0:58:01.720 --> 0:58:04.840 in a whiskey sour, it's really good in the peniculin. 0:58:05.240 --> 0:58:07.640 And so the restaurants and the bars are the ones 0:58:07.680 --> 0:58:10.760 that are really driving the growth of Uncle Nearest. And 0:58:10.760 --> 0:58:13.200 it's both the story and the fact that we're the 0:58:13.200 --> 0:58:15.040 most awarded bourbon five years running. 0:58:15.320 --> 0:58:17.920 Our thanks to Von Weaver, CEO of Uncle Nearest and 0:58:17.960 --> 0:58:20.560 author of the book Love and Whiskey, The remarkable true 0:58:20.560 --> 0:58:24.320 story of Jack Daniel, his master disciller, Nearest Green and 0:58:24.360 --> 0:58:26.360 the Improbable Rise of Uncle Nearest. 0:58:26.640 --> 0:58:29.720 You're listening to Bloomberg BusinessWeek coming up from college dropouts 0:58:29.760 --> 0:58:32.520 to co founders of a growing coffee chain now in 0:58:32.560 --> 0:58:35.400 its twentieth year of existence. We talk with one half 0:58:35.440 --> 0:58:38.160 of the husband and wife duo behind Ziggy's Coffee and 0:58:38.200 --> 0:58:41.480 how engaging with small communities has led to their success. 0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:42.640 To me, like your coffee, don't you? 0:58:42.800 --> 0:58:44.840 I love coffee, don't leave home without You're. 0:58:44.720 --> 0:58:46.080 Kind of a connoisseur of coffee. 0:58:46.320 --> 0:58:48.560 Yeah, I've been known to pull a shot of espresso 0:58:48.640 --> 0:58:52.400 or two in my life. Yes, Indeed, this is Bloomberg. 0:58:54.560 --> 0:58:58.400 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 0:58:58.520 --> 0:59:01.320 each weekday. He's starting a two pece Eastern on applecar 0:59:01.440 --> 0:59:04.400 Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You 0:59:04.440 --> 0:59:07.720 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 0:59:07.760 --> 0:59:11.120 New York station, Just Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven. 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:15.080 Thirty twenty years ago, the first Ciggy's Coffee opened up 0:59:15.120 --> 0:59:18.960 in Longmont, Colorado, just northeast of Boulder. The idea behind 0:59:18.960 --> 0:59:20.880 it from the husband and wife team was, in the 0:59:20.920 --> 0:59:23.680 words of the company, to create a space where people 0:59:23.720 --> 0:59:25.320 could gather and feel right at home. 0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:28.240 Fast forward to today, Ziggie's has recently opened its one 0:59:28.320 --> 0:59:31.880 hundred location. The vast majority of these stores are franchised. 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:35.120 They're in eighteen states and counting. The company sold more 0:59:35.120 --> 0:59:38.200 than eleven million drinks, and the founders have done it 0:59:38.240 --> 0:59:40.960 all by bootstrapping the business. For more on what led 0:59:41.000 --> 0:59:43.480 to the company's success, we spoke to the CEO and 0:59:43.520 --> 0:59:45.880 co founder of Ziggi's Coffee, Brandon Knudsen. 0:59:46.240 --> 0:59:49.520 Yeah, it really goes back to college. My wife and 0:59:49.520 --> 0:59:51.760 I were kind of lost in school and she got 0:59:51.760 --> 0:59:53.520 a job at a little drive through coffee shop, and 0:59:54.000 --> 0:59:56.840 I had the great idea that, you know, hey, let's 0:59:56.840 --> 0:59:58.680 just drop out of school and you know, we could 0:59:58.680 --> 0:59:58.880 do this. 0:59:58.920 --> 0:59:59.640 How hard you it be? 1:00:00.240 --> 1:00:02.760 And I did convince her. Her parents didn't love that, 1:00:02.800 --> 1:00:05.280 but I did convince her to drop We're doing drop 1:00:05.320 --> 1:00:07.480 out of school and pursue our dream of open and 1:00:07.520 --> 1:00:08.439 drive through coffee shop. 1:00:08.680 --> 1:00:11.040 But it is hard, and like we're you know, you 1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:14.040 kind of run into like whatever the psychological phenomenon is 1:00:14.080 --> 1:00:15.960 when you're to only talking to people who've done it 1:00:16.000 --> 1:00:19.160 successfully that you know, it sounds like it's easier than 1:00:19.200 --> 1:00:21.080 it is. But there are a lot of people like 1:00:21.160 --> 1:00:24.160 you who aren't still doing this because what they did 1:00:24.840 --> 1:00:27.080 did not succeed. What made it work for Ziggies. 1:00:27.440 --> 1:00:29.600 When we opened our first it was actually called Gizzies 1:00:29.600 --> 1:00:33.360 at first. I quit my job and we're living out 1:00:33.360 --> 1:00:35.120 of the tip jar, living out of the you know, 1:00:35.160 --> 1:00:37.560 whatever little money we could make, and we're just a 1:00:37.560 --> 1:00:40.120 position where, no matter how hard it get, we didn't 1:00:40.160 --> 1:00:42.000 have a choice, and so we fought through it and 1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:45.600 listen to customers and just grinded away. 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:48.480 But it's interesting, right, Like I think, I certainly in 1:00:48.520 --> 1:00:50.480 New York there's a million places you can go get coffee, 1:00:50.520 --> 1:00:57.080 well known big chains, No Ziggies, not yet, smaller places. 1:00:57.160 --> 1:01:00.600 I tend to like kind of local places, small coffee shops, 1:01:00.600 --> 1:01:02.800 but there's so more of a third wave coffee person. 1:01:02.920 --> 1:01:05.720 I am a more of a third wave or make 1:01:05.760 --> 1:01:08.600 it at home because there's so many great devices. 1:01:08.800 --> 1:01:12.040 How in two decades has the market. 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:15.320 Changed well, I mean drive through is huge now and 1:01:15.600 --> 1:01:17.040 you know, you know, give a lot of credit to 1:01:17.080 --> 1:01:20.600 Dutch Bros. They really put drive through coffee on the map. 1:01:20.880 --> 1:01:22.640 I know Starbucks has done a great job as that 1:01:22.760 --> 1:01:24.840 with that as well. You know, I think it's become 1:01:24.960 --> 1:01:27.200 you know, if you look at the product makes it. 1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:28.680 You know, I think we first started, we were probably 1:01:28.720 --> 1:01:31.440 eighty percent hot coffee and twenty percent cold and it's switched. 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:34.600 It's like seventy cold between energy drinking smooth. 1:01:34.960 --> 1:01:36.040 That's what Starbucks is too. 1:01:36.200 --> 1:01:38.360 Yeah, yeah, it's it's just what people are looking for. 1:01:38.400 --> 1:01:39.160 It's very interesting. 1:01:39.360 --> 1:01:39.520 You know. 1:01:39.560 --> 1:01:41.479 It's funny that you're the drive through is so big 1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:44.440 for you because when you started this company, it wasn't 1:01:44.480 --> 1:01:47.200 about drive through. It was about creating a space, similar 1:01:47.200 --> 1:01:49.920 to what Howard Schultz has talked about when he expanded 1:01:49.920 --> 1:01:52.960 Starbucks into the so called third place. Have you been 1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:55.920 able to kind of keep to the core of creating 1:01:55.920 --> 1:01:58.120 the space for people to gather and hang out even 1:01:58.160 --> 1:01:59.040 with drive through. 1:01:59.280 --> 1:02:02.160 Yeah, I think it's one of those unanswered prayers. We 1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:03.760 wanted a drive through. We did not want to do 1:02:03.960 --> 1:02:06.120 a cafe. We just couldn't afford it. We were broke 1:02:06.440 --> 1:02:08.960 college dropouts, moving to a new state where just knew 1:02:09.000 --> 1:02:11.280 my sister, and so the only thing we could really 1:02:11.280 --> 1:02:13.080 afford to do was we got really lucky and got 1:02:13.080 --> 1:02:16.080 this brick and mortar place in downtown Longmont. What we 1:02:16.160 --> 1:02:18.680 learned there was, you know, we're really in the service business, 1:02:18.720 --> 1:02:21.120 and no matter I joke. I made horrible coffee back then, 1:02:21.120 --> 1:02:23.800 but I had great relationship with customers. So we learned 1:02:23.800 --> 1:02:27.240 that first and then translated that into the drive throughs. 1:02:27.600 --> 1:02:28.560 Were there moments? 1:02:28.680 --> 1:02:30.760 I mean, I feel like whenever we talked to an entrepreneur, 1:02:30.920 --> 1:02:34.200 even super successful ones like yourself, you know, are those 1:02:34.240 --> 1:02:36.960 who are now co founders and heads of you know, 1:02:37.000 --> 1:02:40.120 publicly held companies or used to be, there's always a 1:02:40.160 --> 1:02:41.880 moment where you're like, I'm not sure we're going to 1:02:41.960 --> 1:02:44.480 make it. I am curious how many times you felt 1:02:44.480 --> 1:02:44.880 that way? 1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:48.200 For twelve years? Probably ten years? 1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:48.560 Wow? 1:02:49.000 --> 1:02:50.760 And the thing with us is every time, you know, 1:02:50.880 --> 1:02:53.400 every time we made it. If you got our first 1:02:53.400 --> 1:02:56.560 store really running and making some money, then I begged 1:02:56.560 --> 1:02:58.280 my wife to do a second one, and then we 1:02:58.320 --> 1:02:59.920 went back to, oh my gosh, what did we do 1:03:00.000 --> 1:03:01.840 when we're gonna make it? And then we got there 1:03:01.840 --> 1:03:04.240 and we open a third and it's it's kind of 1:03:04.400 --> 1:03:06.400 it's been an ongoing battle for sure. 1:03:06.840 --> 1:03:08.640 So talk a little bit about growth, because Carolin, I 1:03:08.680 --> 1:03:11.240 do talk to a lot of folks who are in 1:03:11.280 --> 1:03:15.120 the franchise business, and you know, the idea that it's 1:03:15.160 --> 1:03:17.480 really asset light is I think appealing to a lot 1:03:17.520 --> 1:03:21.320 of folks because they are able to grow without actually 1:03:21.400 --> 1:03:23.800 taking on that risk, they can offload that risk. 1:03:24.000 --> 1:03:26.400 I think it's an interesting business model. I mean, how 1:03:26.400 --> 1:03:29.920 does that make it so much easier for you guys 1:03:30.520 --> 1:03:33.520 to grow without the risk. But you've also got to 1:03:33.560 --> 1:03:35.360 make sure the brand doesn't get tarnished. 1:03:35.760 --> 1:03:38.240 Yeah, exactly. I mean it comes down to training. 1:03:38.280 --> 1:03:40.760 We have a team of over fifty people here for 1:03:41.080 --> 1:03:43.840 you know, ninety seven locations, because it's all about support 1:03:43.920 --> 1:03:46.880 and I think of every store as our store from 1:03:46.920 --> 1:03:49.280 the standpoint of not wanting to fail and from a 1:03:49.360 --> 1:03:51.880 risk standpoint, we were very close with all of our 1:03:51.920 --> 1:03:54.960 franchise ease. So again, yes, it's it's capital, it's it's 1:03:55.000 --> 1:03:57.840 a lot easier on the balance sheet, but we still 1:03:57.880 --> 1:04:01.320 fill the burden and we take restore seriously as if 1:04:01.320 --> 1:04:01.920 it were our home. 1:04:02.120 --> 1:04:04.360 Brandon, how do you decide where you grow and how 1:04:04.400 --> 1:04:07.240 you grow the rate with which you grow? Like, you know, 1:04:07.600 --> 1:04:09.200 we want to ask you a little bit about Starbucks 1:04:09.280 --> 1:04:11.040 do and kind of where they are. It feels like 1:04:11.040 --> 1:04:13.960 they're always the one everybody is measured against. But having 1:04:14.000 --> 1:04:15.240 said that, it felt like it got to a point 1:04:15.240 --> 1:04:17.720 where there's one on every corner and how could it 1:04:17.760 --> 1:04:20.120 not be eating into the business of one or the other. 1:04:20.920 --> 1:04:25.360 So how do you guys proceed with growth in a 1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:28.120 smart and thoughtful way that really pays off in the 1:04:28.120 --> 1:04:29.200 bottom and top lines. 1:04:29.440 --> 1:04:31.600 Well, there's two areas that we have success, and the 1:04:31.600 --> 1:04:34.440 first one is people. We need to find great franchise ease, 1:04:34.560 --> 1:04:36.760 great operators. At the end of the day, we're in 1:04:36.800 --> 1:04:39.520 the service business and employees look up to their owners 1:04:39.960 --> 1:04:43.200 and they need to respect them, like them, and that's 1:04:43.240 --> 1:04:46.040 when they'll do a really, really good job is when 1:04:46.040 --> 1:04:48.360 they really care about the owners. And so the people 1:04:48.400 --> 1:04:51.000 are We're not like targeting, you know, a certain wave 1:04:51.040 --> 1:04:52.760 across the country. We don't care if we're in Maine 1:04:52.800 --> 1:04:54.960 or if we're in southern California. But have a great operator, 1:04:54.960 --> 1:04:57.240 we feel really good. The next piece is like we 1:04:57.320 --> 1:05:01.040 love bids, small markets fifteen thousand, twenty thousand person, towns 1:05:01.080 --> 1:05:05.280 fifty thousand, getting over. We love those smart small markets. 1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:07.400 Like meaed where you're joining us from. 1:05:07.560 --> 1:05:09.200 Yeah, we have thirty five hundred people and this is 1:05:09.200 --> 1:05:11.520 one of the best stores in the company. We're plugged 1:05:11.520 --> 1:05:13.880 in the community. We have community events, we sponsor high 1:05:13.920 --> 1:05:16.040 school things. My kids go to high school and middle 1:05:16.080 --> 1:05:18.840 school and elementary school here and so people just buy in. 1:05:18.920 --> 1:05:20.320 We are the coffee shop. 1:05:20.640 --> 1:05:23.840 How much capital does somebody need to start at ziggies? 1:05:24.240 --> 1:05:26.480 It's a it's a wide range, we say, you know, 1:05:26.520 --> 1:05:28.400 on the lower end, maybe one hundred, one hundred and 1:05:28.400 --> 1:05:31.120 fifty thousand on cash if you're going to buy land 1:05:31.160 --> 1:05:34.320 and build and develop, three fifty four hundred thousand if 1:05:34.360 --> 1:05:35.960 you're going to buy the land with down payment and 1:05:35.960 --> 1:05:36.680 those sort of things. 1:05:36.920 --> 1:05:39.960 How quickly does that initial investment get paid off? 1:05:40.200 --> 1:05:41.560 How quickly is the return? 1:05:43.120 --> 1:05:45.240 It depends on what year we're talking about. Now, you know, 1:05:45.320 --> 1:05:48.480 interest rates, it's such a wide variety for folks, it'd 1:05:48.480 --> 1:05:50.640 be hard to even tell you what that is. 1:05:50.920 --> 1:05:54.439 It's okay, so it's obviously been harder in a higher 1:05:54.520 --> 1:05:55.240 rate environment. 1:05:55.320 --> 1:05:56.520 Correct, Oh, it's tough. 1:05:56.560 --> 1:05:58.600 I mean, you know, between interest rates and labor and 1:06:00.320 --> 1:06:02.560 goods and those sort of things. It's it's it's always 1:06:02.600 --> 1:06:05.520 moving and we're just just trying to adjust as it goes. 1:06:05.880 --> 1:06:08.920 What about franchise fees that get paid to you, I 1:06:08.960 --> 1:06:11.320 mean that's how you guys end up making the money. 1:06:11.720 --> 1:06:14.800 How do those how do those sort of tabulate? 1:06:15.040 --> 1:06:17.600 Yeah, so franchise fees are really the upfront fees to 1:06:17.640 --> 1:06:19.680 buy the rights of the license, and that money gets 1:06:19.920 --> 1:06:22.520 used to open stores and train with big believers in 1:06:22.560 --> 1:06:24.600 heavy training. We send a team of six people out 1:06:24.600 --> 1:06:27.160 for at least two weeks to open stores wherever they are, 1:06:27.200 --> 1:06:30.440 because it's really importantly open, open, really strong. Where the 1:06:30.480 --> 1:06:32.480 money is made on our end, where the revenue comes 1:06:32.480 --> 1:06:35.600 in to support our team that supports our franchisees is 1:06:35.600 --> 1:06:38.600 the royalty of six percent on the kind of adjusted growth. 1:06:39.200 --> 1:06:42.760 Okay, so let's go to You know, we mentioned Starbucks before, 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:44.960 and it's certainly a story that has been front and 1:06:45.000 --> 1:06:47.840 center for us as it's getting a new CEO, very 1:06:47.880 --> 1:06:48.480 well known in. 1:06:48.400 --> 1:06:50.760 The fast casual space, well known to you too. Yeah, 1:06:50.760 --> 1:06:51.760 Brian Nicol. 1:06:51.840 --> 1:06:52.720 You've known him for years. 1:06:52.800 --> 1:06:54.600 We've you know, known him for a while. 1:06:54.680 --> 1:06:55.840 Yeah, you've interviewed him a lot. 1:06:55.960 --> 1:06:57.880 You and I have also both talked to him and yeah, 1:06:57.920 --> 1:06:59.720 and followed him because he came in, you know, just 1:06:59.760 --> 1:07:02.320 as the pandemic was getting underway, a tough time with 1:07:02.440 --> 1:07:04.560 a well known chain that was you know, certainly had 1:07:04.600 --> 1:07:09.600 its issues and really got deep into digital in terms 1:07:09.640 --> 1:07:13.840 of automating some things at the chain. Starbucks fighting off 1:07:13.840 --> 1:07:18.560 sloping demand. You know, customers are having to make choices, 1:07:19.320 --> 1:07:21.880 and I wonder what you think about price point. They're 1:07:21.920 --> 1:07:26.480 also dealing with some concerns in the Chinese market. They're 1:07:26.520 --> 1:07:30.040 looking to you know, cut weight times. They've got activist investors. 1:07:30.080 --> 1:07:33.520 There's a lot going on. What do you make of 1:07:33.680 --> 1:07:36.520 starbucks woes? How do you think about where they are? 1:07:36.560 --> 1:07:39.120 And I understand you operate in a very different space, 1:07:39.560 --> 1:07:42.320 but I'm just curious what you watch in terms of 1:07:42.400 --> 1:07:43.000 their woes. 1:07:43.400 --> 1:07:45.800 I mean, it's crazy to, you know, put ourselves up 1:07:45.880 --> 1:07:47.080 next to Starbucks, and they are. 1:07:47.520 --> 1:07:49.240 They are the reason that we're all in this business. 1:07:49.240 --> 1:07:51.400 They educated to the consumer and we all should be 1:07:51.440 --> 1:07:53.680 saying thank you, and so I will never ever speak 1:07:53.720 --> 1:07:55.560 poorly on them. I think a little bit's just a 1:07:55.560 --> 1:07:57.280 little bit of tiredness of the brand. I mean, I 1:07:57.280 --> 1:07:59.360 think people are excited about new brands. Like I said, 1:07:59.720 --> 1:08:03.280 Rose and Siggies, it's new. I think the comparisons with 1:08:03.400 --> 1:08:05.360 f of them we have. We have a big food menu, 1:08:05.440 --> 1:08:08.560 our food mixes twenty five percent, and which makes this 1:08:08.640 --> 1:08:09.920 different than a lot of other brands. 1:08:10.880 --> 1:08:12.919 I just think that it's hard to stay on top. 1:08:13.000 --> 1:08:15.800 I think everyone's trying to knock you down, and I 1:08:16.280 --> 1:08:18.640 think they'll figure it out. They always seem to. You know, 1:08:18.680 --> 1:08:20.680 we try to stay out of all the things that 1:08:20.720 --> 1:08:23.559 are polarizing. We just focus on giving great, authentic service 1:08:23.560 --> 1:08:27.080 to our customers. And I could see them going back 1:08:27.120 --> 1:08:29.720 to that, but honestly, we're head down focus on our 1:08:29.760 --> 1:08:32.080 franchise ease, just trying to help them be successful and 1:08:32.360 --> 1:08:33.880 what's you know, it's a tough market out there. We 1:08:33.920 --> 1:08:36.559 want to really spend our time just focusing on our customers. 1:08:36.680 --> 1:08:39.639 What do you find when it comes to loyalty, Brandon 1:08:39.680 --> 1:08:42.479 that like, when people find out about the shop, do 1:08:42.560 --> 1:08:44.840 they come back? How do you have loyalty programs that 1:08:44.920 --> 1:08:45.400 track that? 1:08:45.880 --> 1:08:48.280 Yeah, yeah, we have a loyalty are We're we're in 1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:50.479 the mid to high fifty percent as far as our 1:08:51.120 --> 1:08:53.839 in our app usage, So those are our loyal members. 1:08:54.520 --> 1:08:57.120 You know, right now people are not frequent in stores 1:08:57.160 --> 1:08:59.040 as much and that's definitely our goal. 1:08:59.600 --> 1:09:01.280 But it's all all about regulars for us. 1:09:01.439 --> 1:09:03.880 What about like app ordering and stuff. 1:09:04.120 --> 1:09:05.840 Yeah, we do some app order and it's it's not 1:09:05.920 --> 1:09:10.200 a ton it's single digits order ahead. We're working on that. 1:09:09.680 --> 1:09:12.760 We just released our new app about a year ago 1:09:13.280 --> 1:09:15.760 and working through some kings there but it's definitely a 1:09:15.760 --> 1:09:16.519 big part of it. 1:09:16.800 --> 1:09:19.360 So what's next for you guys? And I am curious? 1:09:19.400 --> 1:09:21.800 You say, you know, it's fun to kind of put 1:09:21.800 --> 1:09:25.120 yourself in the league of Starbucks. Having said that, is 1:09:25.120 --> 1:09:27.920 there a growth that you want to stay at or 1:09:28.040 --> 1:09:30.880 size that you want to stay at? Do you think 1:09:30.920 --> 1:09:33.679 about going public? Like, what's what's the future? 1:09:34.160 --> 1:09:36.240 I couldn't think of anything worse than going public for 1:09:36.320 --> 1:09:39.320 me personally, it just looks like it does look like 1:09:39.320 --> 1:09:41.720 a whole lot of fun to me. You know, we're 1:09:41.720 --> 1:09:44.679 going to open I mean, we'd love it. We're targeting 1:09:44.720 --> 1:09:47.439 forty five fifty stores a year. We're going to let 1:09:47.439 --> 1:09:49.639 the franchise de dictate that if we can find awesome 1:09:49.640 --> 1:09:51.880 people to open one hundred stores a year, will do that. 1:09:52.280 --> 1:09:54.439 But you can't force it. And that's what's great about 1:09:54.479 --> 1:09:56.320 not being public. We can grow at a pace that 1:09:56.439 --> 1:09:59.360 makes sense for us and it makes sense for franchisees 1:09:59.400 --> 1:10:01.640 and make sure we're putting them in positions to be successful. 1:10:01.720 --> 1:10:05.040 Well, it doesn't necessarily you don't necessarily have the pressure 1:10:05.520 --> 1:10:08.200 on you to go public or have an exit because 1:10:08.240 --> 1:10:13.080 you haven't accepted any outside financing, right correct, No, our goal. 1:10:12.920 --> 1:10:14.559 Is to just help every franchise you make as much 1:10:14.560 --> 1:10:17.000 money as possible right now, and there's no pressures outside 1:10:17.000 --> 1:10:17.200 of that. 1:10:17.400 --> 1:10:21.320 So profitable I assume you are given that you haven't 1:10:21.360 --> 1:10:24.120 had to take on any venture fundraising or private equity funds. 1:10:24.320 --> 1:10:29.800 Yeah, yes, it's we've really invested in our team and 1:10:29.840 --> 1:10:31.400 so that's been the biggest challenge for us as a 1:10:31.400 --> 1:10:34.479 company is you know, we have fifty people for our headcounts, 1:10:34.479 --> 1:10:36.519 over fifty for ninety seven stores. 1:10:36.560 --> 1:10:38.519 It's a big number, but we really believe. 1:10:38.360 --> 1:10:40.080 Especially right now with how tough it is out there, 1:10:40.080 --> 1:10:42.280 that we need to provide a ton of support and 1:10:42.320 --> 1:10:44.040 a ton of train and information, and we need to 1:10:44.080 --> 1:10:46.679 be relevant with ltos and there are sort of things, 1:10:46.680 --> 1:10:49.240 which is why we have just an amazing creative team 1:10:49.280 --> 1:10:51.720 and operations team here which does cut into that. But 1:10:51.920 --> 1:10:53.519 we're looking down the line. 1:10:53.640 --> 1:10:57.200 That was Brandon Nudsen, CEO and co founder of Ziggi's Coffee. 1:10:56.960 --> 1:10:59.439 Still ahead on Bloomberg Business Week. Nothing like wrapping up 1:10:59.479 --> 1:11:01.160 the week with a ready to drink cocktail? 1:11:01.479 --> 1:11:03.640 Are you in non alcoholical? 1:11:03.720 --> 1:11:03.960 Dude? 1:11:03.960 --> 1:11:05.599 You know what I mean? You don't want me having 1:11:05.640 --> 1:11:06.679 a drinking getting on air? 1:11:07.520 --> 1:11:09.639 I don't know some days I do fair. 1:11:10.680 --> 1:11:11.800 This is Bloomberg. 1:11:12.840 --> 1:11:16.360 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 1:11:16.400 --> 1:11:19.639 Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter, Listen 1:11:19.680 --> 1:11:21.880 on Apple car Play and then brout Auto with a 1:11:21.880 --> 1:11:24.920 Bloomberg Business act or want us Live on YouTube. 1:11:26.400 --> 1:11:28.320 As a former colleague of ours used to say, it's 1:11:28.360 --> 1:11:30.720 five o'clock summer, doesn't Jimmy Buffett didn't. He used to 1:11:30.760 --> 1:11:31.479 say that all the time. 1:11:31.520 --> 1:11:32.519 To you, a lot of people do. 1:11:32.800 --> 1:11:35.360 One of the trends we are increasingly seeing from startups 1:11:35.400 --> 1:11:38.400 and the establishment alike is pre mad cocktails, easy to. 1:11:38.320 --> 1:11:40.720 Buy, no shaking nor stirring necessary. 1:11:40.880 --> 1:11:43.400 And that brings us to the family owned Jeloso Group 1:11:43.439 --> 1:11:46.400 of Companies, whose parent company was founded nearly six decades 1:11:46.439 --> 1:11:49.759 ago in Montreal, Canada and now produces over one hundred 1:11:49.800 --> 1:11:52.800 alcoholic beverage products in the US and Canada with over 1:11:52.840 --> 1:11:55.480 three hundred and fifty employees and seven warehouses. 1:11:55.560 --> 1:11:58.320 Although Jeloso runs the second generation of the family owned 1:11:58.360 --> 1:12:02.080 Jelosa Group of Companies, which in clues Jealosa Beverage Group USA. 1:12:02.160 --> 1:12:04.800 He sat down in studio joining Bloomberg's Matt Miller and 1:12:04.840 --> 1:12:07.040 me taking us back to how it all began. 1:12:07.840 --> 1:12:12.759 We're a family owned business. Immigrant parents immigrated in nineteen 1:12:12.800 --> 1:12:15.840 fifty seven, came here for a better life. We're from 1:12:15.840 --> 1:12:20.800 the south of Italy, and basically my father ventured into 1:12:22.680 --> 1:12:27.519 important grapes from California because in Canada you have liquor boards, 1:12:27.560 --> 1:12:32.120 and my father realized that in Quebec you only drink beer, 1:12:32.200 --> 1:12:35.440 and he said, we don't drink beer as Italian. So 1:12:35.520 --> 1:12:38.160 basically there was no wines to be had, and the 1:12:38.200 --> 1:12:42.559 wines that were available were very expensive. And being a farmer, 1:12:42.600 --> 1:12:44.320 he said, you know what, let me bring in grapes 1:12:44.360 --> 1:12:47.799 for the immigrant community. And then that's the story. 1:12:47.920 --> 1:12:49.799 So he brought in grapes to make your own wine 1:12:49.880 --> 1:12:53.599 in Quebec for immigrants exactly so, because you know, we're 1:12:53.640 --> 1:12:56.120 a legislative state, so there's a lot of taxation. 1:12:56.640 --> 1:12:59.080 It's not free market like it is here in the US. 1:12:59.240 --> 1:13:02.000 So that's how we start. And basically from there it 1:13:02.040 --> 1:13:04.960 went on and when people started hearing about my father 1:13:05.439 --> 1:13:08.120 making wine, he was never really making wine. He was 1:13:08.200 --> 1:13:12.080 crushing grapes and the must people would be bringing it 1:13:12.160 --> 1:13:15.719 home to ferment it. And the local authorities got wind 1:13:15.760 --> 1:13:18.920 of this and said hey, this man is bootlegging. He's 1:13:18.960 --> 1:13:22.439 actually making wine. We're in control of the wine industry 1:13:22.479 --> 1:13:27.240 in Quebec, and they sequestered all the liquids that were 1:13:27.240 --> 1:13:30.040 in my father's warehouse and the liquids were then juice. 1:13:31.080 --> 1:13:34.360 Then six months later, my father's lawyer contacts him, says, 1:13:34.400 --> 1:13:37.640 by the way, mister Jeloso, you know what, you're going 1:13:37.720 --> 1:13:41.600 to be charged with bootlegging. He goes, what it? You 1:13:41.640 --> 1:13:43.519 know what? They did a test and it's wine, He goes, 1:13:43.680 --> 1:13:47.320 But naturally it's going to ferment, it will turn into wine. 1:13:47.360 --> 1:13:50.839 So basically, my father brought in an anologist from Europe 1:13:51.439 --> 1:13:54.160 and my father won the case. And the lawyer asked 1:13:54.160 --> 1:13:56.639 my father, listen, now's the time to sue the government. 1:13:56.680 --> 1:13:58.439 My father said, I came here as an immigrant for 1:13:58.439 --> 1:14:01.160 a better life. I want them to give me a 1:14:01.200 --> 1:14:04.200 wine permit. That's why our family has the first wine 1:14:04.200 --> 1:14:05.920 permit in Quebec. Zero zero role. 1:14:06.400 --> 1:14:07.200 What a story. 1:14:08.280 --> 1:14:10.240 So tell us about what you got, what it's grown in. 1:14:10.439 --> 1:14:12.720 You've turned this into a company that does do you 1:14:12.920 --> 1:14:14.519 deal with beer now as well? 1:14:14.760 --> 1:14:18.920 We deal with beer, we deal with cider, we deal 1:14:19.080 --> 1:14:24.760 with spirits. We represent Bacardi, we represent Boston Beer in Quebec. 1:14:25.720 --> 1:14:28.960 Basically we are a one stop shop. 1:14:29.320 --> 1:14:32.360 And this is like one of the hottest growing areas 1:14:32.400 --> 1:14:36.639 of the alcoholic beverage segment, right, I mean everything from 1:14:36.640 --> 1:14:40.599 the from the lowest level too. I mean there's really 1:14:40.680 --> 1:14:43.360 uppity mixed cock te pre mixed cocktails that you can 1:14:43.439 --> 1:14:44.760 order at a restaurant. 1:14:45.080 --> 1:14:47.519 What you have to realize is that whenever you're drinking 1:14:47.520 --> 1:14:50.719 a cocktail at a restaurant, you'll never You'll never find 1:14:51.880 --> 1:14:57.000 unisons and taste. Somebody will add one more ounce of cognac, 1:14:57.080 --> 1:15:00.360 one more ounce of vodka. So what we venture out 1:15:00.640 --> 1:15:04.960 was basically creating a malt. Why malt, because malt gives 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:09.280 us access to people, to markets, whereby spirits you're limited 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:14.320 in general. So we actually patented the process whereby we 1:15:14.360 --> 1:15:17.680 clean the malt and we add the proper salts, the 1:15:17.760 --> 1:15:20.439 proper sugar levels, so that at the end of the 1:15:20.560 --> 1:15:24.160 day you can receive the natural flavors of whatever cocktail 1:15:24.479 --> 1:15:27.080 you want to build on. And what you have here 1:15:27.240 --> 1:15:31.000 cocktails being the first original cocktail and Sonny Margarita is 1:15:31.520 --> 1:15:36.800 the number one selling cocktail in the ussev Wow, it 1:15:36.880 --> 1:15:42.360 beats up every every other cocktail and this from Quebec. 1:15:42.479 --> 1:15:44.960 Could you believe that it's pretty cool stuff. It's a 1:15:44.960 --> 1:15:48.280 crowded market though increasingly. How do you get yourself noticed 1:15:48.360 --> 1:15:50.120 or how do you think about that? Because it feels 1:15:50.120 --> 1:15:51.680 like we talk to a lot of folks in the 1:15:51.680 --> 1:15:53.880 beverage in the alcohol space, and I just feel like 1:15:54.160 --> 1:15:55.760 there's a lot of startups, there's a lot of the 1:15:55.840 --> 1:15:58.160 establishment that are coming out with different brands. So how 1:15:58.200 --> 1:16:00.000 do you distinguish yourself or get noticed. 1:16:00.560 --> 1:16:04.160 You need agility, you need flexibility. You have to address 1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:07.200 not what the consumer wants, what you believe they want. 1:16:07.320 --> 1:16:10.080 One of the things that we pride ourselves is having 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:13.759 the proper contacts with distributors because, like you said, Carol, 1:16:14.000 --> 1:16:16.559 there are so many people out there wanting to load 1:16:16.640 --> 1:16:19.559 up the warehouses of all these distributors, whereby, at the 1:16:19.640 --> 1:16:21.679 end of the day, you saw it in the craft 1:16:21.760 --> 1:16:25.519 beer business, whereby everybody got on board and everybody got 1:16:25.840 --> 1:16:29.360 stinged by it because the craft beer business somehow sued. 1:16:29.560 --> 1:16:29.800 Right. 1:16:30.200 --> 1:16:33.760 So what we've done is we provide proper quantities, We 1:16:33.880 --> 1:16:38.599 provide constant updates and flavor profiles. But at the same 1:16:38.640 --> 1:16:43.000 time we are authentic in terms of flavor. There is 1:16:43.040 --> 1:16:46.280 no natural there is no unnatural ingredients. And what we 1:16:46.400 --> 1:16:50.160 do is, okay, that's the sunny margarita. You're gonna enjoy it. 1:16:50.160 --> 1:16:52.080 It sounds like a beer, guys, it's not. 1:16:52.479 --> 1:16:55.719 It's not a beer like you know what. At the beginning, 1:16:55.760 --> 1:16:58.320 everybody used to tell me. By the way, it's molled, 1:16:58.400 --> 1:17:02.040 I go tell me something. You like Scotch's malt. So 1:17:02.600 --> 1:17:05.439 you have to get the people to understand that it's 1:17:05.560 --> 1:17:09.639 only the alcohol stream that gives you access to a network. 1:17:09.760 --> 1:17:13.640 So it tastes exactly like spirits because we redesigned it 1:17:13.680 --> 1:17:14.280 as spirits. 1:17:14.439 --> 1:17:17.840 All right, Carol is taking a sip. Now you've poured it. 1:17:17.800 --> 1:17:20.640 Into margarita, and it's nice. 1:17:21.160 --> 1:17:22.960 It has a hint of salt, and I'm. 1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:24.080 Picky about margarita's. 1:17:24.360 --> 1:17:26.360 It does have a hint of salt. That's an important part. 1:17:26.400 --> 1:17:27.240 So I haven't had a drink. 1:17:27.240 --> 1:17:28.280 I'm not going to put it near you. 1:17:28.360 --> 1:17:28.880 I haven't had a. 1:17:28.920 --> 1:17:33.400 Drink in two years, but I did drink alcohol. I 1:17:33.479 --> 1:17:35.559 loved the salt in the Martin margarita. 1:17:35.680 --> 1:17:38.320 Right, Yeah, that's incredible. 1:17:38.320 --> 1:17:43.240 What does this cost into retail? Yeah, that's a good question. 1:17:46.080 --> 1:17:49.160 I have no idea you have to go to your website. 1:17:50.800 --> 1:17:53.320 It's like it's like I would say a thing about sorry, 1:17:53.520 --> 1:17:56.200 I mean to do that's a twenty two ounce can. 1:17:56.360 --> 1:17:57.960 So it's like a tall boy, right. 1:17:58.040 --> 1:17:59.559 What do you think because I think about when you 1:17:59.560 --> 1:18:02.200 go to a bar, right, like a margarita is. 1:18:02.439 --> 1:18:06.240 Like ten twelve dollars and tea. Yeah, depending on do 1:18:06.320 --> 1:18:09.680 you make an alcohol free version or do you make 1:18:09.720 --> 1:18:11.439 alcohol free cocktails as well? 1:18:11.840 --> 1:18:14.960 We are the biggest producers of non alcoholic beverages. We 1:18:15.000 --> 1:18:18.160 started in nineteen eighty nine with wine coolers and what 1:18:18.640 --> 1:18:21.840 and what you have to realize we have we have 1:18:22.120 --> 1:18:26.960 brands that are non alcoholic because the demographics, the population, age, aging, 1:18:27.439 --> 1:18:32.120 better lifestyle. I say between now and twenty fifty fifty 1:18:32.120 --> 1:18:34.240 percent of the people won't be drinking alcohol. 1:18:34.400 --> 1:18:36.760 Although I do wonder you know, Map brought up a 1:18:36.800 --> 1:18:40.160 great point about how a lot of people don't want 1:18:40.280 --> 1:18:41.800 any alcohol anymore. 1:18:42.160 --> 1:18:43.000 There's that trend. 1:18:43.040 --> 1:18:46.760 There's also a wellness healthier trend, no sugars, that kind 1:18:46.760 --> 1:18:48.240 of thing that's a real concern for a lot of 1:18:48.320 --> 1:18:51.880 individuals called bucha. How are you thinking about that in 1:18:51.960 --> 1:18:55.160 terms of how you guys do things well and are 1:18:55.160 --> 1:18:57.120 you seeing that in adaptay as? 1:18:57.600 --> 1:19:01.120 I mean you see you when you see plays like 1:19:01.360 --> 1:19:05.400 moltsen Cores change their name to the Molten Cores Beverage Company, 1:19:05.560 --> 1:19:07.640 They're starting to realize they have to walk away from 1:19:07.720 --> 1:19:11.600 beers of certain staple items. So you have non alcoholic 1:19:11.720 --> 1:19:15.800 was always considered zero point five because of the changing demographics. 1:19:15.800 --> 1:19:19.200 Now everybody's focusing on zero point zero because we have 1:19:19.280 --> 1:19:23.240 to attend certain other demographics or religious beliefs going forward 1:19:23.439 --> 1:19:27.280 because the population is changing. And the wellness, I mean, 1:19:27.320 --> 1:19:35.080 there's hydration, there's longevity. You have to address it today 1:19:35.320 --> 1:19:38.640 and how we do it. Also, A non alcoholic and 1:19:38.760 --> 1:19:41.320 non acoholic is that we started in the eighties for 1:19:41.360 --> 1:19:47.519 the simple reason that we knew that people need an 1:19:47.600 --> 1:19:52.080 alternative and children. To make sure that children don't drink, 1:19:52.400 --> 1:19:55.519 they have to have products that are non alcoholic with 1:19:55.680 --> 1:19:59.040 a name that is alcoholic. So it takes that stigma 1:19:59.080 --> 1:20:02.040 away from them and that pressure because pure pressure is 1:20:02.120 --> 1:20:06.200 very strong. So we have nono, non alcoholic champagnes, non 1:20:06.240 --> 1:20:11.360 alcoholic cocktails and yeah, when you look at that, we 1:20:11.439 --> 1:20:13.599 offer that that range across the board. 1:20:13.720 --> 1:20:15.280 Have you seen a lot of growth in that area? 1:20:16.280 --> 1:20:20.280 So much, and especially when you see big players themselves 1:20:20.360 --> 1:20:23.920 like Heineken, Budweis or and everybody. 1:20:24.000 --> 1:20:26.679 Yeah, what about for something like this where I think, 1:20:27.000 --> 1:20:28.960 I mean, I've actually you know, been either on a 1:20:29.000 --> 1:20:31.920 vacation or I sail and like there's not a lot 1:20:31.960 --> 1:20:33.240 of we don't keep a lot of stuff on them, 1:20:33.360 --> 1:20:35.720 you know. There and I've picked up these pre made 1:20:35.720 --> 1:20:39.080 cocktails and there it's really nice and convenient. So I 1:20:39.120 --> 1:20:40.640 am curious, what kind of growth are you seeing in 1:20:40.680 --> 1:20:41.160 this area. 1:20:41.560 --> 1:20:44.559 Well, we have grown double digit ready to drink Yeah, 1:20:45.439 --> 1:20:48.519 last six years. Every month we control the category in 1:20:48.600 --> 1:20:52.479 terms of margarita. We're the third largest in America and 1:20:52.680 --> 1:20:56.840 we still do Our runway is still is still there 1:20:56.880 --> 1:20:58.320 because you know, it's like at the end of the day, 1:20:58.320 --> 1:21:02.760 we're fighting big boys, And like Matt was saying, what 1:21:02.840 --> 1:21:05.320 makes us pertinent is the fact that we keep our 1:21:05.439 --> 1:21:08.559 ear with the distributor. We may, we attend to their 1:21:08.640 --> 1:21:13.040 needs in terms of inventory levels, and at the end 1:21:13.040 --> 1:21:15.439 of the day, people only come back for only one 1:21:15.479 --> 1:21:19.400 simple reason puffability. It has to taste good. People will 1:21:19.439 --> 1:21:22.559 adopt it once, but they have to I've had some. 1:21:22.560 --> 1:21:24.439 Non alcoholic stuff and I have to be honest with you, 1:21:24.479 --> 1:21:25.160 I didn't like it. 1:21:25.360 --> 1:21:27.880 That's probably beer, right, non alcoholic beer and wine is 1:21:27.880 --> 1:21:31.160 no bueno, right. But you can easily make a non 1:21:31.200 --> 1:21:36.080 alcoholic Sex on the beach, you know, because these cocktails. 1:21:36.200 --> 1:21:39.480 I'm looking through what you got, Carol's drinking the margarita, 1:21:40.160 --> 1:21:46.080 you got the screwdriver. Obviously you've got Alabama Slammer, Sex 1:21:46.200 --> 1:21:48.040 on the Beach. Yes, Sex on the Beach, a long 1:21:48.040 --> 1:21:52.280 islandized tea. Most of these cocktails were mixed originally so 1:21:52.320 --> 1:21:55.240 that you couldn't taste the alcohol in them, and I 1:21:55.400 --> 1:21:58.880 imagine that makes it easy to make non alcoholic, non 1:21:58.920 --> 1:22:02.439 alcoholic versions. How important is your distributor relationship. You must 1:22:02.520 --> 1:22:03.720 get all your intel that way. 1:22:03.960 --> 1:22:07.600 Our intel comes from the fact that we know the industry. 1:22:07.840 --> 1:22:11.080 Our distributor is our segue to the market. They have 1:22:11.160 --> 1:22:14.080 to believe in us. So our intel comes from the 1:22:14.120 --> 1:22:17.960 fact that we develop quaffable products and that are pure 1:22:18.200 --> 1:22:21.320 and taste and have no sugars in them. The only 1:22:21.360 --> 1:22:26.040 sugars are basically the alcohol itself, that is naturally sugar. 1:22:26.600 --> 1:22:29.719 That's although Jeloso of the family owned Geloso Group of companies, 1:22:29.720 --> 1:22:33.800 which includes Jeloso Beverage Group Usa, along with Bloomberg's Matt Meller, who. 1:22:33.720 --> 1:22:36.760 Like you, is also into non alcoholic beverages. Yeah, been 1:22:36.920 --> 1:22:38.960 like sober for or not Soper. I shouldn't say that, 1:22:38.960 --> 1:22:42.760 but that's staining. You can say that was my word, 1:22:42.840 --> 1:22:44.720 not Mads. He's just been you know, he's been on 1:22:44.760 --> 1:22:46.240 a healthier kind of kick. Yeah. 1:22:46.360 --> 1:22:49.120 I mean, he's like one of many right now, I think. 1:22:49.000 --> 1:22:49.679 Yeah, I agree. 1:22:49.880 --> 1:22:51.280 I think a lot of people are rethinking this. 1:22:51.400 --> 1:22:54.599 Also. It's interesting to see research coming out rethinking you know, 1:22:54.840 --> 1:22:57.080 a glass of wine or alcohol, you know the impact 1:22:57.080 --> 1:22:58.320 it can have on your health longer term. 1:22:58.360 --> 1:22:59.800 I think for Matt and me, I don't want to 1:22:59.800 --> 1:23:01.760 speak for him, but he's got young kids too, Like 1:23:01.960 --> 1:23:04.519 you know, Saturday morning, Sunday morning, you want to be 1:23:04.640 --> 1:23:07.479 there to chase them around j J and love me. 1:23:07.520 --> 1:23:08.840 They come over and they open up your eyes. 1:23:08.920 --> 1:23:09.960 Yeah, yeah, that's great. 1:23:10.400 --> 1:23:10.720 All right. 1:23:10.720 --> 1:23:12.760 That wraps up our weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week 1:23:12.760 --> 1:23:14.760 from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so much for joining us. 1:23:14.840 --> 1:23:16.880 Be sure to tune into Bloomberg Business Week Monday through 1:23:16.920 --> 1:23:19.519 Friday starting at two pm Wall Street Time, on Bloomberg TV, 1:23:19.600 --> 1:23:22.880 Bloomberg Radio, and on SERIOUSXM Channel one twenty one. You 1:23:22.920 --> 1:23:24.839 can also listen to us on Apple CarPlay and Android 1:23:24.840 --> 1:23:27.439 Auto Free in the Apple app Store or on Google Play. 1:23:27.479 --> 1:23:29.880 You can also watch our daily broadcast on YouTube search 1:23:29.880 --> 1:23:33.800 Bloomberg Global News. We're a summlcast on Bloomberg Originals, available 1:23:33.920 --> 1:23:39.040 at Bloomberg dot com, Slash Originals, and strewing platforms including Roku, Amazon, fireTV, 1:23:39.280 --> 1:23:40.800 Samsung TV Plus and more. 1:23:40.960 --> 1:23:43.920 Find our Bloomberg BusinessWeek podcast at Bloomberg dot com, Apple, 1:23:44.000 --> 1:23:46.479 or wherever you get your podcasts, and the latest edition 1:23:46.520 --> 1:23:49.000 of the magazine is available on newsstands now at Bloomberg 1:23:49.040 --> 1:23:51.040 dot com and always on the Bloomberg Terminal. 1:23:51.320 --> 1:23:53.479 I'm Tim Standeveek and I'm Carol Masser. Have a good 1:23:53.479 --> 1:23:54.599 and safe weekend everyone. 1:23:55.080 --> 1:23:57.680 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. 1:23:57.800 --> 1:23:58.559 I'll a little on. 1:23:58.600 --> 1:24:02.679 Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. 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