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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five.

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Speaker 2: Or she had us an email at trust Me pod

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Speaker 2: at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: Trust Me, trust Me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 1: I've never lied to you. I never If you think

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Speaker 1: that one person has all the answers, don't welcome to

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Speaker 1: trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief and the

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Speaker 1: abusive power from two missus who've actually experienced it. Di

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Speaker 1: am Lola Blank and I am Megan Elizabeth, Miss Megan

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth to you, Yeah, miss free?

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Speaker 2: What is that Janet Jackson thing? Miss Nasty, no miss something?

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Speaker 1: If you're nasty, miss Independent, if you're Kelly Clarkson.

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Speaker 2: Somebody else, there is like She'm sorry, you're not me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, a couple of misses. This week is

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Speaker 1: part two of our interview with Christina Babin, survivor of

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Speaker 1: the Children of God. So she's going to tell us

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Speaker 1: this week in part two about life in the reprogramming camps,

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Speaker 1: which were these incredibly abusive guarded compounds where the children

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Speaker 1: were controlled every single moment. She's going to talk about

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Speaker 1: how difficult it is to come forward about an experience

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Speaker 1: like this, and how survivors aren't looking for your pity,

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Speaker 1: and then I love this part.

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Speaker 2: She'll also talk to us about how she got married,

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Speaker 2: her first taste of freedom that led to her finally

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Speaker 2: leaving the group, and what she loves about her life.

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Speaker 1: Now, this episode does contain references to child abuse, so

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Speaker 1: consider this your content warning. It's some heavy shits, but

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Speaker 1: it is important, I think, and she has a pretty

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Speaker 1: cool perspective on it all. Now I say agreed. So Megan,

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Speaker 1: time for the question. You know what I'm gonna ask,

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Speaker 1: what is the cultiest thing that has happened to you

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Speaker 1: this week? Well?

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Speaker 2: I have some news, like some world news. Oh okay,

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Speaker 2: pretty interesting, actually kind of excited about it. I don't

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Speaker 2: think you know it yet, so I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 2: you do, but uh, remember our friend Chad Dabell. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: Laurie and Chad Dabell. They've been in the news. They

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Speaker 2: are accused or under suspicion is that a word?

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Speaker 1: Anderson's they're being investigated, they're charged aren't they actually charged.

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Speaker 2: I think they might be charged. Remember we were on

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Speaker 2: like a zoom with a lot of important people once

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Speaker 2: and I was like just to backpack back on to

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Speaker 2: the back of what Loah said, and everyone was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, what okay, you guys. They're bad people. They're

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Speaker 2: bad fucking people. They have been accused of killing a

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Speaker 2: lot of people. Two of them Laurie's precious kids. Every

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Speaker 2: time I see a picture of them, I want to die.

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Speaker 2: They're adorable. So anyway, his other children coming forth and saying, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: our dad didn't do that because he used to be

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Speaker 2: a grave digger and he would have dug way deeper graves.

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Speaker 1: Are you serious?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Wow, Oh that's like heartbreaking, man, Like that is like

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Speaker 1: the world's uh like most extreme case of cognitive dissonance. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just like right there in your face. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: they were like, what two feet down instead of six

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Speaker 1: feet down?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all on his property. And she was just like,

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Speaker 2: he wouldn't be dumb enough to hide them on his property.

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Speaker 2: Plus he used to be a grave digger, so he

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Speaker 2: knows better. Just dig a little bit deeper. And I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, the rest of the world is kind of like, well,

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Speaker 2: he didn't have all the time in the world, lady.

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Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you just gotta bury the bodies.

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Speaker 1: And last I checked, being a grave digger by profession

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Speaker 1: doesn't make you like worse at burying bodies, Like no,

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Speaker 1: it's not like it's counter to the skill of burying

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Speaker 1: a body, like pretty sure, that's like a helpful toolful skill.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean they have so many machines though

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Speaker 2: to do it a cemetery, right, like doing it by yourself,

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Speaker 2: a little bucket and a shovel like from the kitty

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Speaker 2: part of rite aid. You know, that's what he has

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Speaker 2: now if he's not at the grave yard.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine, though, Like that's your dad, Like that's

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Speaker 1: your dad. Like I get the mental gymnastics, Like I

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Speaker 1: get why you would want to do those mental gymnastics,

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Speaker 1: because how could you believe that about someone that you love.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it would just be so traumatizing. I can't

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Speaker 1: even imagine. Yeah, anyway, Oh what a sad fucking story man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah anyway, yeah, yeah, I'm okay, okay, I know I've

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Speaker 1: been talking about my anxiety lately. I'm gonna talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about it today. Great, So you guys,

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Speaker 1: I like had my first experience with like capital a anxiety,

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Speaker 1: which I thought anxiety just meant like, oh, I'm anxious

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Speaker 1: about this thing, like I'm stressed. I didn't realize that anxiety,

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Speaker 1: like like actual, like clinical anxiety, is an experience that

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Speaker 1: is so terrifying and difficult to explain that I feel

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Speaker 1: like a freak when I talk to people about it,

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Speaker 1: because they're like, what's the big deal, Like You're just anxious,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, no, it feels like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: die or that I'm going crazy one or the other.

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Speaker 1: What was happening originally that like triggered this whole cycle

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Speaker 1: was this feeling of unreality, this like depersonalization where the

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Speaker 1: world like I don't feel like anything is real, like

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Speaker 1: I'm in a dream or I'm looking at things through

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Speaker 1: glass that had never happened to me before in my

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Speaker 1: entire life. I'm thirty three years old and so ever

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Speaker 1: since then, I think I've mentioned on earlier episodes like

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Speaker 1: I tried getting on medication. I'm now tapering off the

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Speaker 1: medication because it was making me feel like foggy and weird,

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Speaker 1: and my psychiatrist was like, you don't have to feel

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Speaker 1: weird all the time. This isn't how it's supposed to work.

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Speaker 1: But so it's just been this this crazy journey of

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Speaker 1: like trying to figure out what to do about it

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Speaker 1: because I'm like, is this just who I am? Now?

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Speaker 1: This has been like two months and not not every

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Speaker 1: day is bad. Like I'm I'm functional, but I wasn't

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Speaker 1: functional for a minute there, for like a solid few weeks.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that I'm doing in this

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Speaker 1: pursuit is I've gone now twice to a practitioner or

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Speaker 1: a technician who does what's called neurofeedback. Ooh, I just

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Speaker 1: did that too, did you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Did you do it in Santa Monica.

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Speaker 1: The West Side?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, me too.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that building on the ninth floor?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: No, I did it at some guy's house.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, Oh okay.

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Speaker 1: He is not the type of person y'all that I

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Speaker 1: would normally go to, and I it's like, it makes

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Speaker 1: me feel I'm a little uncomfortable with it, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: because I'm thinking a lot of crystal bracelets on him.

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Speaker 1: Not crystal bracelets, but he he's mentioned chakras a few times,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not please just please, just don't talk about chakras. Please,

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Speaker 1: just don't talk about chakras. Like I know that there

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Speaker 1: is action evidence to support neurofeedback as a viable I

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Speaker 1: mean the reason I even started going was because I

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Speaker 1: read The Body Keeps the Score and there's a whole

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Speaker 1: section on it, and I was like, this sounds amazing,

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Speaker 1: Like basically there's electricity in your brain, right, the electric

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Speaker 1: waves in your brain. If it's like if they're going

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Speaker 1: too fast in one section or too slow in another,

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Speaker 1: that can be what contributes to dysfunction, is the general theory.

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Speaker 1: And for me, I'm like, I feel like there's something

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Speaker 1: like structurally fucked up because this has like never happened

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Speaker 1: before and it's so extreme whatever. So I've now gone

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Speaker 1: to this guy twice, and like I said, there is

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Speaker 1: evidence that it works. It's just like a really it's

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Speaker 1: still early, like it's a growing body of evidence, right,

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Speaker 1: and it's like there haven't been enough like controls for

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Speaker 1: like the way that they do it and who you know,

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Speaker 1: the particular methodology or whatever. So as a result, there

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Speaker 1: are some like hokey people who are doing it because

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Speaker 1: it's like still you know, not that well known or

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Speaker 1: like some sort of fringe people do it. However, this

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Speaker 1: guy was cheat. He was doing the same exact technology

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Speaker 1: that other people are doing, same program. He's like since technician.

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Speaker 1: He just happens to be a hokey guy and he

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Speaker 1: was more affordable. So I was like, Okay, fuck it,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna try this.

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Speaker 3: Amen.

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Speaker 1: How many times have you gone?

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Speaker 2: Just once?

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Speaker 1: Okay, went twice today.

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Speaker 2: My friend who told me about it, was like, it's

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Speaker 2: really weird when it's on, like you feel strange. I

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Speaker 2: didn't really feel strange, but I definitely had like a

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Speaker 2: very emotional night afterwards, so I don't know, I.

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Speaker 1: Felt nothing the first time. Today, he said he went

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Speaker 1: a lot stronger because it didn't seem like I reacted

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Speaker 1: to the first time. And I definitely felt like, oh,

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Speaker 1: like a buzziness in my head, like a little bit flushed.

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Speaker 1: I want that, I mean, go again. It was number two,

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Speaker 1: session number two, y'all raise so true.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this then.

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Speaker 1: But I just want to say one thing that I've

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Speaker 1: keep learning over and over again in case anyone out

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Speaker 1: there is struggling with anxiety disorder or panic disorder. Actually,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I discovered this app called Dare. This

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Speaker 1: is not a sponsored thing. I just love this app.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. This app called Dare is great because it's

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Speaker 1: called there, but it's I can't remember what it stands for,

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Speaker 1: but it's basically like a technique to defeat your anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Not defeat though, actually it's the opposite of defeat. And

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Speaker 1: this is it. Yes, this is the problem that I

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Speaker 1: keep having is that I keep wanting to resist it,

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Speaker 1: and every time I try to resist it, it makes it

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Speaker 1: so much worse. Whereas we just let it in and

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Speaker 1: accept it and allow it and befriend it, that is

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Speaker 1: the only thing that helps. It's the only And yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 1: just saying that in case anyone else is having this,

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Speaker 1: because I had never gone through anything like this, and

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Speaker 1: I felt like a fucking crazy person and like I

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Speaker 1: was alone in this. None of my friends actually dan

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Speaker 1: and has experiences, but otherwise none of my friends have yep,

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Speaker 1: do you do you get like?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had such bad panic attacks for

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Speaker 2: like a year of my life that it ruined my life.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't even really. Yeah, it was a nightmare. Every

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Speaker 2: single night I.

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Speaker 1: Would have to die good God. Yeah, every wedding. How

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Speaker 1: did you like recover?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is something that I always suggest people do.

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Speaker 2: I had a friend. I called one of my friends

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Speaker 2: and was like, Hey, I have to get on medication

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Speaker 2: and I have to figure this out. But I don't

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Speaker 2: have the energy to even start knowing what that process

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Speaker 2: looks like. So can you come over and just call

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Speaker 2: a bunch of people with me? And we found a

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Speaker 2: really good recommendation for a psychiatrist and she put me

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Speaker 2: on prozac. And I remember we have a friend in common, Adam.

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Speaker 2: I remember Adam, and I went and saw a movie

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Speaker 2: that night and like, prozac has always just worked so

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Speaker 2: perfectly for me, even in high school. I take it

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Speaker 2: like in ten minutes later I am like, my compulsions

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Speaker 2: are so much chiller. And I've been on a million

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Speaker 2: others and none of the mark like that for me.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, that night I felt we were sitting watching

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Speaker 2: the movie and I felt the dying start to happen,

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Speaker 2: like oh here it comes like but no, but I

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Speaker 2: could just feel the medicine actually fighting it oeah. And

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I want to like fuck prozac.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: If I haven't like gotten better at managing it, once

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Speaker 1: I'm tapered off of the lexipro, Prozac would probably be

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Speaker 1: the next one that I will try. Oh, but my

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Speaker 1: psychiatrist said, I'm exquisitely sensitive to medication because I was

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Speaker 1: only on five milligrams, which is an extremely low dose.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I.

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Speaker 1: Was having like gnarly side effects.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not good.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense because I've never had alcohol still ever

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Speaker 1: in my life. So my body is like, what is

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Speaker 1: this chemical? You know?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, my body's like yay.

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Speaker 1: I will keep you all posted on how neurofeedback goes.

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Speaker 1: The studies that haven't done, they're very promising. It's like

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Speaker 1: seventy to eighty percent remission of chronic anxiety or something

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Speaker 1: like that. So but I'm not trying to fight it.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to welcome it, but maybe give my brain

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Speaker 1: a little edge as I do the right.

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Speaker 2: We're not trying to get rid of you, but if

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Speaker 2: you wanted to just like chill a little bit, it

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Speaker 2: would be fun.

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Speaker 1: If you want to just fucking disappear, that would be amazing. Thanks.

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Speaker 2: That's truly how all myself conversations go. Where I start

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Speaker 2: off and I'm like, it's fine, I'm gonna sit here

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Speaker 2: with you. I love it. This part of you needs

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Speaker 2: to be here. And then at the end of none,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, but.

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Speaker 1: Why the fuck are you still here? We're supposed to

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Speaker 1: leave when I said that, I know, but the Dare

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Speaker 1: app is really good for that. Those pet talks they

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Speaker 1: give you about accepting and welcoming your feeling, Oh, they're amazing. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I feel like Dare.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna download that Dare.

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Speaker 1: I posted about it in my story today. I'm like

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Speaker 1: their ambassador.

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Speaker 2: Now it costs anything.

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Speaker 1: I think it does. I think I paid something. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember how much it was, but it costs. It's

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Speaker 1: probably like a free version exactly. It costs more to

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Speaker 1: not get it.

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Speaker 2: Megan again, not sponsored by anyone. I just really like it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I've tried so many apps this past couple of weeks,

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Speaker 1: and this is by far the best.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get it right now then.

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Speaker 1: Okay, anyway, I think it's probably time to get back

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Speaker 1: to part two of our interview. Anything for sure, Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 3: Let's do this.

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Speaker 1: I'm just like fascinated by these camps because I think

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Speaker 1: you're right, like, people really fixate on the sexual abuse

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Speaker 1: of the children, which obviously is absolutely horrific, but there

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Speaker 1: is so much other extreme kinds of abuse going on

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Speaker 1: that just like get overlooked.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, the camps were definitely the roughest, and that's

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Speaker 3: where they concentrated all of their thought reform on us.

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Speaker 3: And the one in the Philippines that literally had walls

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Speaker 3: at the time, they seemed like they were fifteen feet high.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they were only ten, I don't know, but they

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Speaker 3: had barbed wire and broken glass bottles surrounding the entire compound.

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Speaker 3: We had armed guards marking the inside of the walls

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Speaker 3: with us. There were different theories as to why they

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Speaker 3: were there, but it was never addressed. I figured it

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Speaker 3: was to keep us in. Other people believed it was

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Speaker 3: to keep the world out. Either way, it was a

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Speaker 3: great deterrent for any of us trying to escape.

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Speaker 2: Of course, did people try, like did the little kids

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Speaker 2: ever try to escape? And what would did that look like?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so I never witnessed anybody trying to escape. My

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Speaker 3: best friend there at the time, she was my secret

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Speaker 3: best friend. She had asked to leave. She said she

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Speaker 3: wanted to go live with her parents, and she was

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Speaker 3: thrown into isolation. She was put on plans restriction, and

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Speaker 3: then she was publicly had an exorcism done against her.

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Speaker 3: So you didn't even speak those words, much less try now.

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Speaker 3: Before going to the commune, I had watched other people

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Speaker 3: try to escape, and a lot of times the cult

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Speaker 3: members would find them and bring them back, and the

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Speaker 3: punishments were extreme. Sometimes the police would bring them back.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: You have to remember, like we were in a foreign country.

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Speaker 3: We were never taught to fully speak the languages that

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Speaker 3: we were in. We were not allowed to have friends

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Speaker 3: outside of the group. Our passports were always confiscated, so

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Speaker 3: there was no way to get out. You couldn't explain

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Speaker 3: what was happening. And if you did and you brought

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Speaker 3: the authorities back, the entire commune was trained in how

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Speaker 3: to respond and how to act, so there really was

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Speaker 3: no escape. A lot of older teenagers escaped, but a

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Speaker 3: lot of them died. A lot of them were homeless

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Speaker 3: on the streets, a lot became prostitutes. You didn't have

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Speaker 3: a landing space if you did leave. So I watched

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Speaker 3: that happening. I was like, nope. They would have these

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Speaker 3: cautionary tales. They would find out like, Okay, this is

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Speaker 3: what happened, and then they would tell us here's what happened.

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Speaker 3: The founder would talk about it, and they were out

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Speaker 3: of God's protection, they were out of God's will, and

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Speaker 3: look what happened to them.

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Speaker 1: That's a really great point that Naomi, who is also

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Speaker 1: on the show, made, which is that like, when you're

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Speaker 1: coming out of a group that has such extreme control,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is I think the most extreme group

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Speaker 1: that I've heard of, Yes, in terms of like literally

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Speaker 1: physically restricting you from leaving. What resources do you have?

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Speaker 1: Where do you even go? If your whole family's in

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Speaker 1: this group, Like even if you were able to jump

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Speaker 1: over the wall, Like, what do you do?

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Speaker 2: Then?

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Speaker 1: You know, I mean, it's just so horrible.

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Speaker 3: And you're so innocent, and you were such at the

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Speaker 3: world's mercy, right and most of the world is good,

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Speaker 3: but there are predators out there. You know, it's not

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Speaker 3: safe without a tribe, right, you know, you're not safe

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Speaker 3: completely on your own. So you know. One thing though,

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Speaker 3: that I really want to stress before we go on,

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Speaker 3: is that, yes, we all went through a lot, and

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00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,880
Speaker 3: we've all overcome a lot. We receive a lot of

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00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,920
Speaker 3: either pity or people wanting to shy away from the subject.

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Speaker 3: But we are not pathetic. We are not people that

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Speaker 3: you need to pity. The people that have come out

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Speaker 3: of this and survived and that are living fulfilling lives

341
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Speaker 3: like we are strong people. We don't need nobodies pity.

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Speaker 3: We are thinking out because the world needs to know

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Speaker 3: that this happened. We've bought and paid for this story

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Speaker 3: of life that we lived. It was a high price

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Speaker 3: that we paid. So we have the right to tell

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Speaker 3: our story and to be proud of ourselves. We have

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Speaker 3: the right to try to inform the world that this

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Speaker 3: stuff is real. This was a massive conspiracy that has

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Speaker 3: gone on for decades and successfully, I might add, so

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Speaker 3: you know, yes, it's taken us a long time to

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Speaker 3: start fighting back, but that's because trauma doesn't just heal overnight.

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Speaker 3: You don't get out of a destructive cult. You guys

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Speaker 3: know that, you know you were working through stuff for years,

354
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,359
Speaker 3: maybe the rest of your liney. Yeah, but that doesn't

355
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Speaker 3: mean that people that come out are looking for attention.

356
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Speaker 3: You definitely don't make money coming out. Oh, this is

357
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Speaker 3: to inform the public. This is to inform people that

358
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Speaker 3: this stuff is real and we all want freedom from

359
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 3: keeping the secret. Of our keepers, right, like I will

360
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Speaker 3: no longer participate, right. Yeah, Like I said, it took

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Speaker 3: me ten years to be able to admit to myself

362
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Speaker 3: the levels and like the how deep the rabbit hole went,

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Speaker 3: and then it took me another ten years to feel

364
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Speaker 3: comfortable to come out and say it out loud to

365
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Speaker 3: other people. You know. That's why the statute of limitations

366
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Speaker 3: is so discouraging, because if you don't come after your

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Speaker 3: abuses by the time that you're twenty one or in

368
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Speaker 3: fifteen years, then it's too late and people are still healing.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's you're not ready.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: Of course, the kind of person that comes out that

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Speaker 3: has been abused as a child is fifty eight years old. Whoa,

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Speaker 3: this has been studied. Wow. So if you come out

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00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,679
Speaker 3: before you're fifty eight, you're doing good. So our laws

375
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,360
Speaker 3: are not lined up with the reality of how long

376
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Speaker 3: it takes to heal, you know, and when you're ready

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Speaker 3: to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think people really misunderstand that. I think that's

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Speaker 1: a really important point. To even be able to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: to yourself that you've experienced abuse can take so many years.

381
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Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if you're brainwashed yeah.

382
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Speaker 1: I mean that's like, even if that's just like one

383
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,160
Speaker 1: single incident of abuse, that can take years to admit

384
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Speaker 1: to yourself, if you ever even do so, if you've

385
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Speaker 1: experienced this entire life of this, the complicated feelings about

386
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Speaker 1: family and then all of the indoctrination, like of course,

387
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Speaker 1: that's it's going to take forever. It's amazing that anyone

388
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Speaker 1: can even like come out and talk about it. What

389
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Speaker 1: you're doing is amazing, I think, yeah.

390
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:06,360
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, back to y'all. You know, I do think

391
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 3: there's some healing and forgiveness that has to take place

392
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 3: too before you come out and speak about it. Your

393
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,639
Speaker 3: motives have to be not right, but you have to

394
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 3: have the proper perspective because if you're coming out for revenge,

395
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 3: you're probably never going to get it, you know. And

396
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,720
Speaker 3: it's not about revenge. It's about informing people. It's about

397
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,439
Speaker 3: shining a light on reality and letting people know that

398
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 3: this stuff is real, and how do we keep these

399
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 3: things from happening again, Because we're starting to see echo chambers,

400
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,159
Speaker 3: we're starting to see these big divides again in society,

401
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 3: and it's concerning to me that people hate each other

402
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 3: because they're on a different side politically or a different

403
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 3: side religiously. We're all humans. We're all humans. We don't

404
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,239
Speaker 3: need to be divided. And if you strongly disagree with

405
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,119
Speaker 3: somebody else, the best thing to do is listen and

406
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 3: find out why they think those crazy things, not to

407
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 3: shame them, not to hate them. That's how we create

408
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 3: an environment where you can have these destructive groups, is

409
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 3: by creating echo chambers and creating this environment where people

410
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 3: don't speak the truth of how they feel in that moment.

411
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 3: Because the fact is all three of us are here

412
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 3: today to say you can change your mind, Your views

413
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 3: can change, you know, to think some crazy things right

414
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 3: as kids and growing up now we're like, that's crazy,

415
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 3: you know, is on what you would consider the wrong

416
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 3: side of the fence. There is hope for change, but

417
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 3: not by only speaking to people that agree with us.

418
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,479
Speaker 3: I think it's important to talk to people who don't. Yeah,

419
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 3: maybe not all the time, or maybe not in your

420
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Speaker 3: fun time, but I do you think that?

421
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I agreed completely. Can you tell us how

422
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 1: you met your husband and how you first began the

423
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: process of leaving.

424
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Speaker 3: Okay, well again, that took a lot longer than what

425
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 3: other people think it should have. It was nineteen ninety four,

426
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Speaker 3: I believe, when the founder passed away, and at that

427
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 3: time there was a huge court case going on over

428
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 3: in the UK against the Children of God against the

429
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 3: Family International, and it was funny because they kind of

430
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 3: hailed it as a win, but really what happened was

431
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 3: Lord Justice Ward. He confirmed that the cult was overtly

432
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 3: responsible for promoting child adult sex. That he cited numerous times,

433
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 3: that people were lying under oath, and he said the

434
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 3: only way that the mother was going to have any

435
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 3: interaction with their child was if they made major reforms

436
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 3: in the cult. Now I disagree with what he said

437
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 3: in that he said they used to be abusing and

438
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: now they're not, So we're not going to penalize them.

439
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: Oh, that's not.

440
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 3: How the law should work. That's hoping that they change

441
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 3: and counting on liars and criminals to change is not

442
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: how the law is supposed to work. But it was

443
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 3: definitely not an endorsement of the cult. But at that

444
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 3: time the founder had passed away and his wife, Karen Zerby,

445
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 3: she decided she was going to try to make the

446
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,959
Speaker 3: cult a little more legitimate. She promised the judge that

447
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 3: they were going to do some reforms, so things kind

448
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 3: of softened up a little bit. It was still a cult,

449
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 3: but they started kind of talking about maybe that we

450
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 3: had some rights. So in nineteen ninety five they decided

451
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 3: to come up with something called the Love Charter, and

452
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 3: it was basically like giving us rights that we were

453
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: allowed to choose our local leaders because that was all

454
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 3: mandated from above. You were allowed to drink more than

455
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: one cup of coffee, just different things, wow wild with

456
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 3: anybody under sixteen was not allowed.

457
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: Okay, progress, so that you know.

458
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 3: Just it was progress. Yeah. And so during that time,

459
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 3: my husband had met the Family International in Japan when

460
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 3: he had just had a major accident, and he met

461
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 3: them and they love bombed him and they told him

462
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 3: we're doing all this great, wonderful mission work and he

463
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, I want to do mission

464
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 3: work and help people. So he had kind of signed

465
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 3: up to join. He cut off from his parents and

466
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: his family, which was required. You just weren't supposed to

467
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 3: talk to them. And there's a six month indoctrination that

468
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 3: you have to go through where basically they just put

469
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 3: you in a room and you just read the founder's

470
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: writing and you don't do anything else. You don't talk

471
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 3: to people. You just read, read, reread all the time.

472
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 3: Wo the end of the six months, if you still

473
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: want to join, And of course they don't let you

474
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 3: read everything. They just let you read all the stuff

475
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 3: that promotes this beautiful life that you have. Right and

476
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 3: actually right before that, there was something called the Great Purge.

477
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 3: When I left the prison camp, that's when the Great

478
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 3: Purge started, My passport was burned. Every single commune around

479
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 3: the world had to burn certain books. We had to

480
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 3: go through page by page and draw bathing suits on

481
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 3: any of the naked women in the pictures. WHOA yeah, what?

482
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, So there's a mass cover up of anything

483
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: that would imply illegal things had gone on. Basically yeh wow,

484
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: and why our passport? Did they do that to everyone too.

485
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 3: So we could improve where we were. Oh, I had

486
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 3: been in the Philippines, which was a super secret place,

487
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 3: so they wanted no evidence. You weren't really allowed to

488
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 3: have pictures of other people. We didn't know the addresses

489
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 3: of where we lived. We didn't know anybody's legal name.

490
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 3: You weren't allowed to share your legal name with anybody else.

491
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 3: You weren't allowed to know anybody's legal names. All the

492
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 3: houses that were rented were either rented with an alias,

493
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: they had like fake IDs. There would be a couple

494
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 3: select people that would open up communes and everything would

495
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 3: be done under these fake identities. We were very good

496
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: at hiding, and so when I came back to the States,

497
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: I was part of a fake commune that was set

498
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 3: up to fool the media. And in this commune, we

499
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 3: had only three children. Most communes had like fifty or

500
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 3: one hundred, so there were three children in this commune.

501
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 3: We did mission work, and we did a lot of

502
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 3: photo opportunities, and we would invite the media to come

503
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 3: and film us and watch what we were doing. And

504
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 3: we said, this is what we are, this is what

505
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 3: we do, this is what it looks like. And I

506
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 3: knew what was going on. I knew what I was doing.

507
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 3: I remember at the time NBC came to film and

508
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 3: because the founder had passed away and Karen Zurby was

509
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: part of you know, this change that I thought was coming,

510
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, we've always been it's called deceivers

511
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 3: yet true, we've always lied to the outside world. You know,

512
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 3: maybe a change is coming, So like, hang in there,

513
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 3: because you can't survive outside anyway. Same time my husband

514
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 3: was in training, I ended up meeting him and I

515
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: was just instantly fascinated with him. He had read books,

516
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 3: and I thought he was the smartest person on earth.

517
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 3: To me, he was even smarter than the founder because

518
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 3: he talked about the books that he read. He had

519
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 3: read sci fi, he was educated, he had gone to

520
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 3: high school. I'd say he's a pretty witty, bright high schooler,

521
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 3: but in my mind he was an astrophysicist. I was like,

522
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 3: oh so right at that time, he decided that it

523
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 3: was too controlling and he hadn't seen any abuse or

524
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 3: anything like that. He just was like, this is too controlling.

525
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 3: It's not for me. And I was like, you know,

526
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 3: we cannot leave. We can't leave. He was like, no,

527
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: let's go, and I'm like, no, you don't understand. He

528
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 3: wanted and then he wanted me to come visit his parents,

529
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 3: and I was like, we cannot leave the commune. If

530
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 3: we go visit your family, they won't let us back.

531
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 3: And he was like, what are you talking about? And

532
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 3: he's like and if that's true, who cares? And I

533
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 3: was like no, we just so we can't. And I

534
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 3: didn't know how to explain it. I didn't know how

535
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 3: to tell him. He could not comprehend at all what

536
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:26,479
Speaker 3: I was saying.

537
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: Of course.

538
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, So my first two kids were born in it.

539
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: And then we went and visited his parents once. And

540
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: then the second time we went to visit them, I

541
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 3: guess his mom or something had said like, oh, you

542
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 3: can come stay with us, and I was like, oh,

543
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: wait what? And I remember them his family just all

544
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 3: sitting around and eating dinner together and talking and laughing

545
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 3: and arguing, and I was just amazed. I was like,

546
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: this is chaos. And it was scary and like thrilling,

547
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: this normal conversation because they were like bickering with each

548
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: other and then it would get kind of humid, and

549
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: then somebody would make a little smart ass remark and

550
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: then they'd all start laughing, and I was just like,

551
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 3: what is going on? It was so foreign to me,

552
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: but I loved it. So we ended up leaving and

553
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 3: it was awesome. And I don't know if we have time,

554
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: but I can tell you about, like I think the

555
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: first time I mentally broke free.

556
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: Please before you tell us that, I do want you

557
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: to tell us that. But can you clarify, So you

558
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: got married and you're allowed to be married in the cult.

559
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 3: No, so they forbid us to get married. Okay, they

560
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 3: said we cannot get married. They did not approve. They

561
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 3: actually tried to separate us. They told him that he

562
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: was going to be sent to the leadership to ws

563
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 3: and that the cult was going to take care of

564
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 3: the baby, and he said no. Like for me, I

565
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 3: was like, of course they're saying that, but he was

566
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 3: like really, like, we want to get married, and they

567
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 3: were like, no, you can have sex, but you cannot

568
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 3: get married. And for two years they refused to let

569
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 3: us to get married. So when we got out, we

570
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 3: got married and then we were married for twenty three years.

571
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, yes, wow, So you see this normal

572
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: family and that's exciting.

573
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 3: Had you been.

574
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: Thinking about leaving already? Like where was your head at?

575
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I had been fantasizing about leaving my whole life,

576
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: but because I didn't think leaving in the traditional way

577
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 3: would ever work, I would fantasize about the end time

578
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 3: coming and the anti Christ coming, and all the adults

579
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 3: would just they would all be martyrs before me, and

580
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 3: then I would be all alone and I'd be one

581
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 3: of the last martyrs, and I would have to run

582
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: out into the world and be a prophet and I'd

583
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: be on my own that way. So that's cognitive dissidence, right, Yes,

584
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 3: I want to leave and I don't want to be

585
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 3: in the cult, So how can I make it work

586
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: in my mind? Oh, everybody died, well, wow, everybody has

587
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 3: to die because we're going to die anyway. But it's

588
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 3: just I won't be dying with them. I'm gonna I'm

589
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: going to have like three years of being a lone

590
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 3: prophet in the world all by myself.

591
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

592
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 3: I had to go seek refuge with kind systemites. You know,

593
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: I don't know. I never really got past that. I

594
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 3: was just always like, ooh, it was like a dark

595
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 3: fantasy I had.

596
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: I love that everyone dying is the only shred of

597
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: hope that you had. That's very telling.

598
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was after the Philippines though, when they broke me.

599
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 3: I remember coming to I lost a couple months of

600
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 3: memory and I came to realized I had lost time

601
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 3: and I just looked so low and had no hope.

602
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: I was a broken person, but there was this little

603
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 3: tiny flame in me that was like Okay, this is

604
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: not right, this is wrong. I just didn't like them

605
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 3: any so I kind of was like, Okay, I actually

606
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: want to get away from them. So I just was

607
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: always kind of looking like how could it happen? My

608
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 3: fantasies kind of stopped because I no longer really believed

609
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 3: that I was going to be an end time martyr

610
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: for Christ, that I was going to have superpowers because

611
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 3: my powers never came in, like I was supposed to

612
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 3: shoot fire out of my fingers and I wasn't seeing

613
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 3: any evidence of that. And I just realized that they

614
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 3: were also the enemy, that the cult. While the outside

615
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 3: world was my enemy, I was like, Okay, I'm just

616
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 3: surrounded by enemies, they're also my enemy. So I was

617
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 3: kind of always looking for a way out and I

618
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 3: just wasn't ever seeing one. And so it wasn't until

619
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: he took me home to see his family that I

620
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 3: was like. They had a huge, beautiful plantation home out

621
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: in the middle of the country in Louisiana and the

622
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 3: sugar cane fields, and I guess because it was in

623
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 3: the country and it wasn't like in a big city,

624
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: it felt safe. It was this tiny little bit of Paradise.

625
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: There was a pecan orchard and we would pick pecans

626
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 3: every day and fill the baskets with pecans, and I

627
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 3: guess it was so like old school and it just

628
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 3: felt very safe and comfortable. That was the first time

629
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 3: that I was like, Okay, maybe we could live out here.

630
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 3: That was it, and it was out there. So I

631
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: was twenty one and I had two kids, and I

632
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: had never driven a car, and I never thought that

633
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 3: I would be able to drive a car. And my

634
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: ex had said, you know, well you have to drive,

635
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 3: like that's something that adults do, and I was like, oh,

636
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: I don't know. So he two weeks he was teaching

637
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 3: me how to drive the stick shift. He was a

638
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 3: very impatient teacher and there was lots of tears, and

639
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 3: now like that, I basically learned how to drive in

640
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 3: that two week period. And one day he had taken

641
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: the kids to the grocery store and his parents were

642
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 3: gone and there was nobody around and I was by myself.

643
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 3: I remember I had gotten like a little pair of

644
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: jean shorts from the threat store, and jeans were forbidden.

645
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 3: We were never allowed to wear jeans because they were

646
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: too worldly. And I had on my little sassy jeans

647
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 3: and a big, oversized man T shirt. But again, I

648
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 3: thought that was very I thought I was very worldly.

649
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 3: I had just bought like a little stick of lipstick,

650
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, I'm so badass. And then

651
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: I was like, it's really weird just being all alone.

652
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 3: And I was like, I could get in the car

653
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 3: and drive, and so I got my person. I got

654
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 3: in the car. It turned it on. I turned the

655
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: radio on, which my husband had taught me, like, oh,

656
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 3: you can turn the radio on. You can listen to

657
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: music that was not allowed at all and never happened.

658
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: So I put the radio on and it was some

659
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: American rock and roll song and I started driving and

660
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 3: the windows were down, and it must have been some

661
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 3: time in September, because the sugarcane was really high, and

662
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 3: it was these little dirt roads all throughout the sugar

663
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 3: cane fields. And I was just driving the car. The

664
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 3: wind was blowing my hair and the rock music was playing,

665
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 3: and I was like, I felt so badass. I was like,

666
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 3: oh my god, I'm so free. I was like, okay,

667
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 3: you got to check your speed. And I look down

668
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 3: and I'm going like twenty miles an hour and I

669
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 3: was like, it was hilarious. But then as I was driving,

670
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: I just had this irresistible urge to keep driving, and

671
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 3: I was like okay, I literally like it just kind

672
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 3: of hit me. I could drive and keep driving and

673
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 3: nobody can stop me. And I mean, I had two

674
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 3: beautiful children that I loved. It was kind of like

675
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 3: kind of got quiet that part of me because the

676
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 3: freedom and the realization that I could drive and keep driving,

677
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 3: like I was free to do that, it was so

678
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 3: so strong, and I kind of like took a few

679
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: minutes to breathe and realized like, Okay, no, I'm choosing

680
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 3: to go back. And I turned around and went back

681
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 3: and they came home. Everything was great. But it was

682
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 3: just such a big realization to realize that I could

683
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 3: leave the house by myself. I could get when I

684
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: could drive, and that was like the first big like

685
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 3: mind blown I don't know what you call that.

686
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: Wow, what a simple freedom. But I mean, I'm like transfixed.

687
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: It sounds so exhilarating.

688
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 2: I know, I'm like, everybody, go get in their car

689
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 2: right now, if you have one, turn on some rock

690
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 2: and roll.

691
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 3: Seriously, Lauren, step outside. Such an amazing thing that we

692
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 3: get to do. And I do think that people who

693
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 3: have not grown up like this, they can't even imagine

694
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 3: not having freedom to not only own your own body,

695
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 3: but you can't own your own thoughts. Yeah, we have

696
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 3: a hard time comprehending that, but there are people who

697
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 3: are living like this, and it is such a beautiful

698
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 3: thing to be an individual and to have freedom and

699
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 3: to be able to make choices. Then I want that

700
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 3: for everybody. Yeah, even if I choices, I want you

701
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 3: to economy, to make your own mind up, to do

702
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 3: what you think is right, to do right unless it's hurt.

703
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 3: Let's not do that exactly.

704
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, not that.

705
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 2: Did you write a book or you're writing a book?

706
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 3: A book? It's proving a lot harder than I thought.

707
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 3: So I was writing a book about my whole life

708
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 3: and I got it all down. Then I realize it's

709
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 3: too much, and there's also a lot of people that

710
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 3: are writing books now about it. So I'm writing a

711
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 3: book just about the prison camp and my time there

712
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 3: because that was my real coming of age. That's I

713
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 3: think when I learned the most, and that was the

714
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 3: first time I allowed myself to actually connect to other

715
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 3: humans because I was so defensive before that and so

716
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 3: indoctrinated that I just never really got close to people.

717
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 3: And during that time, it was it was worse time,

718
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 3: but it was the time that I grew the most

719
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 3: in my life and really established some deep relationships and

720
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 3: got closer to my brother who I hadn't really spent

721
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 3: much time with. You know. So it's going to be

722
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 3: a pretty intense book. But I'm shopping for an editor

723
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 3: and a publisher. Taken me longer than I thought I

724
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 3: thought I would be done by.

725
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: Now that's the way it is.

726
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: So when did you, like officially exit What did that

727
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: look like?

728
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's the part where everybody wants it really

729
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 3: dramatic that there really is not, because once you are

730
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: over eighteen and you leave, they don't want you to

731
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 3: come back because it's such a closed community and there

732
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 3: is so much milieu control. There is so much control

733
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 3: over everything that comes in and out. If you go

734
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: and spend two weeks out and come back, they don't

735
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: like that. They don't want that. So if you were

736
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 3: gone for a short time, they would actually like isolate you.

737
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 3: You'd have to be vetted, you'd have to be reindoctrinated

738
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 3: before you were allowed to mix with other people. And

739
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 3: then if you left for good and stopped giving money,

740
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 3: then you were out and they didn't really pursue you

741
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 3: very much to try to get back in. So it's actually,

742
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: as long as your family was not separated, it was

743
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 3: easy to leap. Here's the difficult part, and this is

744
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 3: where I think empathy needs to be put for our parents,

745
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 3: is that they took your children away, and so they

746
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 3: would take your partner away, marry you to somebody else.

747
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 3: If you left with some of your children, they would

748
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 3: hide all your other children from you and you would

749
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: never see them again. So you cannot leave, and then

750
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 3: you know again you're in another country. You're not allowed

751
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 3: to use the telephone. We suffered more than our parents, however,

752
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 3: they were also held hostage.

753
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: Of course, it was.

754
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 3: Very difficult to leave. There are so many ways to

755
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 3: hold people hostage. That has nothing to do with tying

756
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 3: them up. Yeah, if you control people's minds, you control

757
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 3: their situation, you make them complicit in the abuse that

758
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 3: you're suffering. Then you know you're embarrassed to leave. You

759
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 3: don't know how you've given your power to them. It's

760
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 3: so difficult, really really really difficult. I know people that

761
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 3: are still mentally in chains and that don't know how

762
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: to break free. It's tough.

763
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean if you're literally not even given time

764
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: alone and you're not allowed to do anything that fosters

765
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: independent thought, Like how do you even produce the thought? Yeah,

766
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: that would lead you to leaving? Like, it's just so

767
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: much more impossible than people even can imagine.

768
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 3: I think you don't even want to think those thoughts

769
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 3: of leaving because if it ever slips your mouth, if

770
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 3: you ever make any movement towards that, they're on guard

771
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 3: and looking for that. So you can't even let yourself

772
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 3: go there. Right, it's you know, you have to learn

773
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 3: how to think when you leave the cold. You literally

774
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 3: have to learn how to think.

775
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: Yep, right, I know that something that was definitely true

776
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: for my mom after all of the trauma that she

777
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: experienced is like basically, in leaving, you have to then

778
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: acknowledge all of the trauma you've experienced and all of

779
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: the life you've given up for an abusive group. And

780
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: that leap is so hard to make because once you

781
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: accept that, you're like, I've wasted my life or oh wait,

782
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: all those things I thought were because God wanted them

783
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: were actually just like me being abused for years. Oh cool,

784
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: don't really want that to be real?

785
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you're an amazing person. I was so amazed

786
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 3: by her story, like just how brave she is and

787
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 3: just she never gave in to dying. And you know

788
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 3: that's something that our suicide rate, we think is thirty

789
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 3: percent higher than the national average. We're having trouble like

790
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 3: getting the numbers together, you know. So I just I

791
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,479
Speaker 3: have a lot of admiration for people like your mom

792
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 3: who have been through that didn't give in when they

793
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 3: were so close to it. It's just really difficult, and

794
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 3: then to stand up and be a stand up person

795
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 3: and make the world a better place. Like, wow, that's amazing.

796
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, she's amazing, But so are you, and

797
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 1: so are all survivors who come forward and all survivors

798
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: who don't. I mean, there's just yeah.

799
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 3: And that's the thing is, like, you know, we're not

800
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 3: in a competition of who has been through the most trauma. Yeah,

801
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 3: just because some of us were more physically and sexually abused,

802
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that you know, your journey is not

803
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 3: as difficult as ours. They've actually studied psychological emotional abuse

804
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 3: is actually just as harmful as physical abuse. Yeah, and

805
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 3: we've all been through that. I mean all of us

806
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 3: in this room, but a lot of people have been

807
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 3: through that, and a lot of people have been in

808
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: abusive relationship exactly constructive groups or been part of you know,

809
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 3: yoga groups that are controlled. There's all kinds, there's all

810
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 3: kinds of difficult things to go through, and I'm so

811
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 3: thankful that now we can talk about this, that we

812
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 3: can share with stories, that we can stand up and

813
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 3: say no, we are strong and we're not people that

814
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 3: you need to pity and feel sorry for. We don't

815
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 3: need to be ashamed of our past, and nobody else

816
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 3: needs to put that on us. You want us in

817
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 3: your life, you want us working at your company. We

818
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 3: are strong people. And when I first came out, I

819
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 3: tried putting like little feelers out to see if I

820
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 3: could actually tell the truth. And every single time people

821
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 3: were like, don't say that, don't talk about that, don't

822
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: tell anybody that. And now we're living in a world

823
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 3: where people are like, Okay, I guess we got to

824
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 3: listen to that. Okay, And then younger people like I

825
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 3: find my kids who are in their twenties, they're championing

826
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 3: and this honesty and this openness about trauma and about abuse,

827
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 3: and they don't look at it the same way that

828
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 3: the older generation does. They're like, wow, we go like

829
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 3: their friends are like, wow, We're proud of your mom.

830
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 3: It's awesome she can tell her story. We want to

831
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 3: hear more. They're not afraid of that. And everybody gives

832
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 3: the young people such a hard time, you know, these

833
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 3: hipsters and these kids, blah blah blah, And I'm just

834
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 3: amazed at their openness to the possibility that there are

835
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,439
Speaker 3: these difficult conversations that need to be had. And that's

836
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 3: something I've never seen before. So I love it me too.

837
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: I feel like through my twenties I sort of witnessed

838
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 1: that change happening, and witness was like because I remember

839
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: feeling ashamed and I remember feeling like it wasn't something

840
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 1: that we could talk about. And then in twenty fifteen

841
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: I wrote about it, and then it seemed like it

842
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: was a part of this I mean whatever it had

843
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: started happening before that. Obviously it was not the beginning

844
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: of the way, but I like was a part of

845
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: the wave, like riding this wave of like, oh, we

846
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: can actually share our stories and not be ashamed, and

847
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: like people will actually be supportive of us, Like what

848
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: an amazing change. Thank God. Who wants to hide?

849
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 3: You know?

850
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: Right right real quick. So I feel like we spend

851
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: so much time talking about the heavy stuff and the

852
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: dark stuff in the abuse. I just want to know, like,

853
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: what do you love about your life now?

854
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 3: Just about everything. I remember watching a movie not long

855
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 3: after I got out of the cult, and it was

856
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 3: a movie called What Dreams May Come, was with Robin Williams, Yes,

857
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 3: and I remember his wife was. I was watching it

858
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 3: and I thought visually it was beautiful because I was

859
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 3: just starting to paint and be an artist and she

860
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 3: was struggling with being suicidal. And this one part in

861
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 3: the movie, he goes to visit his wife in the

862
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 3: institution and she's smoking and he's like, why are you smoking?

863
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 3: That's bad for you, and she says, my therapist says,

864
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 3: I need to affirm life. And I remember at the

865
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 3: time realizing like she's not actually talking about the cigarette itself.

866
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 3: She's talking about I need to live in the moment

867
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 3: and do things that I enjoy, and that that was

868
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 3: medication for being suicidal. It was like the antidote, and

869
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 3: it's just such a good little glimpse into kind of

870
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 3: like my philosophy, and it's just enjoying life and everything

871
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 3: that's in it. And I do have such a wonderful life.

872
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 3: I have amazing children, amazing friends. I get to be

873
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: an artist full time. I get to leave my house.

874
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 3: I'm a foodie. I love to cook. I love to travel.

875
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 3: I love to be in places I've never been before

876
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 3: and be free, So like hopping on a plane and

877
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 3: just flying somewhere, or getting on a boat, you know,

878
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 3: going to another country to relive all of those things

879
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 3: that I never got to do so in another country

880
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 3: and being free and not having to beg on the

881
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 3: street in a foreign country from the local natives who

882
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 3: are probably starving themselves so that I can give money

883
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 3: to my founder so that he can live a popul life.

884
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 3: I can go to that country and enjoy that culture

885
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 3: and taste their food. I can literally buy food and

886
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 3: eat it. I don't have to dig in the garbage.

887
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 3: I don't have to beg people for it. There's so

888
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 3: much in life to enjoy life. I'm thirsty for all

889
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 3: of it. I love it all, and it doesn't mean

890
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 3: life is perfect, but it is beautiful and I'm very thankful,

891
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 3: and part of that is not regretting what I went through,

892
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 3: so I would not go back and take any of

893
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,399
Speaker 3: the pain that I experienced away. All the bad things

894
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 3: that I went through made me just appreciate all the

895
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 3: good things in life, and it gave me perspective. And

896
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 3: I have a lot of empathy, too much empathy, But

897
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 3: I have empathy for everybody. And I know what it's

898
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: like to be weak. I know what it's like life

899
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 3: like to be strong. I know what it's like to

900
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 3: be in just so many different situations. I think everybody

901
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 3: has their own journey, everybody has their struggles, and I

902
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 3: just think we should all affirm life and live in

903
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 3: the moment and learn to just love whatever is in

904
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 3: front of us and just enjoy it. Love it.

905
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: Amen, it's beautiful. Oh, I'm so glad I asked. That

906
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: was such a good answer question.

907
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: Yes, And we need to we need to truly laugh

908
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 3: and have fun. And I do like enjoy humor, and

909
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 3: I enjoy dark humor and like, oh my god, it's

910
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 3: so liberating. Ye.

911
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: Do you want to promote your artwork? Is there a

912
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 1: social media handle or anything you want to share.

913
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 3: I have Instagram and it's called art Full South and

914
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 3: you can check out my murals and my fine art

915
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 3: on there, and you can watch this. Some documentaries that

916
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 3: me and some other people have been doing. There's one

917
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 3: on People magazine, Investigation Discovery that I was on. Another

918
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 3: one just came out last night, which is a fantastic one.

919
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 3: I suggest everybody go watch it. It's like a five

920
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 3: part series and it's called Children in the Cult. It's

921
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 3: on Discovery Plus, all right, and they literally take you

922
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 3: around the world and you go on this trip around

923
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 3: the world and you experience life. And I know all

924
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 3: these people on this documentary. There's a tiny little clip

925
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 3: of me as a twelve year old in one of

926
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 3: the camps. I was like, oh, but they didn't burn

927
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 3: that video.

928
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: Whoa.

929
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 3: But it's a beautiful documentary. It's so powerful. I suggest

930
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 3: going to watch that. And then we're all writing books.

931
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,399
Speaker 3: We're you know, a lot of us are speaking out

932
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 3: so we want you to know our story. But yeah, beautiful.

933
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: Great, Thank you so much for talking to us.

934
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you guys for having me, and thanks for

935
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 3: doing this podcast. I love it.

936
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 2: Thank you well.

937
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: I love to hear about how well she's doing and

938
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: what she loves about her life.

939
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 3: Now.

940
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: It was actually really inspiring for me to hear this

941
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: when we were doing the interview, because I was like

942
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 1: in the throes of anxiety that day, and I was like,

943
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: oh my god, She's right. There's so much to love

944
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: about life, and I'm just missing it, Like there's so

945
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: much here to like look at and enjoy and appreciate.

946
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: And just because I'm like scared, I'm going to get

947
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: scared essentially, right, I'm like failing to see all this

948
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: beauty that is before me. Anyway, So you know, we've

949
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: already discussed Children of God. I guess I'm just generally

950
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: wandering outside of our like known cult experiences. Have you

951
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 1: ever been loved.

952
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 2: Bombed love bombed? Yeah, for sure. I just thought of someone.

953
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: Mm hmm yep, coo, go on.

954
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: It was this guy I dated. He was an actor,

955
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 2: which used to be my problem. I would like meet

956
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 2: somebody and think they were a chef or something, and

957
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 2: then they'd be like, I'm an actor, and I'd be

958
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 2: like fuck because I don't know. I just didn't want

959
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 2: to date somebody who was really good at pretending. But

960
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 2: I might kept falling in love with them, and he

961
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 2: went so hard on how much he wanted to have

962
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: children and get married. He wouldn't stop talking about how

963
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 2: much he enjoyed me and how bad he wanted to

964
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 2: have kids and how much he wanted to get married

965
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 2: and all of the shit. And it was like kind

966
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 2: of scaring me. And then I met a few other

967
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 2: girls who were also dating him, and he was doing

968
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 2: the same shit, and I was like, oh my god,

969
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: he was trying to love bomb me.

970
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

971
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: Psycholassic Tale, classic psycho, very similar to experiences I've had,

972
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 2: one with a director, one with a very famous musician who's.

973
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 1: Now known as a bad person. I'm out of breath

974
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: because I was just running up the stairs. You guys

975
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 1: didn't hear, but we took a pause. I'm out of breath,

976
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: I'm out of shape.

977
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

978
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: No, like talking about marriage and babies on the first

979
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: date and yeah, saying I love you were like almost

980
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: I love you within the ye first believe.

981
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: He's such a hot fucking mess because he lived in

982
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 2: like a giant mansion and had all the coolest toys

983
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 2: and was like, let's do this, let's do that. But

984
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: I was just like like such a hot mess. I

985
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 2: was like, but I want to just be like drunk

986
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 2: get away, but otherwise that could have really fucked me up,

987
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 2: you know.

988
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: In my case is like both of those examples. I

989
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 1: was like, I know that they're love bombing me, but

990
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: this is like also really fun, and I like, I

991
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: don't really believe it, but I want to believe it, you.

992
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, but I always yeah, that's always a fun Yeah.

993
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: I had one foot in, one foot out, so I

994
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: like because I was able to identify it. Although I

995
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: think when I was younger I definitely fell for it.

996
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,240
Speaker 1: It's less extreme.

997
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 2: Cases as love though, Like when you do that, you're like, okay,

998
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: one foot in, one fit out, Like I completely understand

999
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 2: what's happening, and you do, but then you're still like

1000
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 2: an emotional disaster and you cannot understand why You're Like,

1001
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: but I went into this knowing.

1002
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: What I should be in power getting into a relationship

1003
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 1: with a narcissist.

1004
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well like what I just my friend and I

1005
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 2: had sushi like two years ago, and she was like,

1006
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 2: I'm finally over my boyfriend. We're gonna go have dinner,

1007
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 2: and I'm just so excited to be like fuck, you,

1008
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: and I was like, you're going to be dealing with

1009
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 2: this decision for years because you're not ready for that.

1010
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 2: No matter what you think that you are, it's not true.

1011
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 3: And today we.

1012
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 2: Had coffee and she's still upset.

1013
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: I know that very well. I hope that that isn't

1014
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: me getting these neuro feedback sessions from this like hippie

1015
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: alternative medicine hokey practitioner, where I'm like, I know that

1016
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: this is hocky, but it's okay. I won't get sucked

1017
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: into his cult.

1018
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 2: The funniest thing is that you keep calling it hokey.

1019
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 2: I've like never heard that word hokey. I mean, not

1020
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: to describe like corny spiritual shit, which is like my

1021
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,439
Speaker 2: main vibe hoky.

1022
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 1: Am I using the word wrong?

1023
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 2: I mean I just always thought of it as something

1024
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 2: country like.

1025
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: Oh, too emotional or artificial to be believed or according

1026
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: to Urban Dictionary, another name for a very very loose vagina.

1027
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: So that those are the saults, those are those are

1028
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: the definition options.

1029
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:24,760
Speaker 2: Is that where you learn the word.

1030
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: Okay, maybe hokey's not the word. Maybe, I mean, what

1031
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: word would you use?

1032
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 2: I guess like fu fu?

1033
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, fu fu?

1034
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 2: I think you can. You can maintain your like, huh,

1035
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 2: one foot in, one foot out, much easier if you're

1036
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,720
Speaker 2: not in a romantic relationship with somebody.

1037
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: Famous last words, famous last words.

1038
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 2: But I think you, I think you have a handle

1039
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: on this one.

1040
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: No, you're okay, you're right, You're you're absolutely right in

1041
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: this case, because I don't find his personality to be compelling.

1042
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 1: And there's no one else who's like, yeah, I've never

1043
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,399
Speaker 1: listened to this. It's perfectly nice, probably nice.

1044
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 3: I have two of them.

1045
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:07,479
Speaker 2: If you're listening, you're the other one.

1046
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: I just don't believe in, you know, chakras necessarily or

1047
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:13,439
Speaker 1: that kind of thing.

1048
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 2: So chakras are my main bitch. I'm obsessed with it.

1049
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: I know you love them. You're such a chakra bitch.

1050
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 2: I am a chakra whore. I want more chakras and

1051
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 2: we have like millions of them.

1052
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: I am an anti chakra activist. Just what I am?

1053
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we're on different lines of the fence.

1054
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I have to go eat my Thai food.

1055
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 2: Now, Okay, Well you know what, that's just perfectly fine

1056
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 2: with the rest of us, because we're going to meet

1057
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 2: up here again next week. Everybody we hope you have

1058
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 2: a lovely week. Remember to follow your gut, watch out

1059
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 2: for red flags, and.

1060
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: Never ever trust me. Bye by