1
00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,360
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us

2
00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,520
Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the

3
00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,720
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App. We're listening on

4
00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. TikTok's drive for the

5
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,480
Speaker 1: day here inside the bubble an obsession recently by lawmakers,

6
00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,680
Speaker 1: many of whom want to ban the app for everyone,

7
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,080
Speaker 1: just as they did for government devices. Enter. The CEO

8
00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,440
Speaker 1: of TikTok, So Shoe, says the company is taking measures

9
00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,839
Speaker 1: to distance itself from the Chinese wing of its parent company,

10
00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:34,960
Speaker 1: Byte Dance. This is the message from TikTok, and we

11
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,960
Speaker 1: saw the testimony in advance. He also says TikTok's in

12
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,880
Speaker 1: the process of moving all of its US data to

13
00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,120
Speaker 1: servers in Texas from the Project Texas and reminding some

14
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,960
Speaker 1: very skeptical lawmakers today all of whom showed up to

15
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,760
Speaker 1: work to be a part of this, that not only

16
00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,080
Speaker 1: does the site have one hundred and fifty million users

17
00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,400
Speaker 1: in this country, but seven thousand people in the US

18
00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: actually work for TikTok. The bottom line is this American

19
00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:03,400
Speaker 1: data start on American soil by an American company. Overseen

20
00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,560
Speaker 1: by American personnel, but the chair of the House Energy

21
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,840
Speaker 1: and Commerce Committee isn't having any of it. Congressman McAthy,

22
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:14,559
Speaker 1: McMorris Rodgers, your platform should be banned. I expect today

23
00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,280
Speaker 1: you'll say anything to avoid this outcome, like you're one

24
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,240
Speaker 1: percent responsible for what TikTok does, that you suddenly endorse

25
00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,840
Speaker 1: a national data privacy standard, that Project Texas is more

26
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:32,280
Speaker 1: than a marketing scheme, that TikTok doesn't harm our innocent children.

27
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 1: Getting a sense of how this is going. Today's hearing

28
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,440
Speaker 1: comes as President Biden packs his bags for Ottawa, first

29
00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,080
Speaker 1: trip to Canada since taking office, where he will, of

30
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,280
Speaker 1: course meet with the Prime Minister Justin Trudeaux. And it's

31
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 1: a vast agenda. You can read about it on the terminal,

32
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 1: stretching from banking to you better believe it China. And

33
00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 1: that's where we begin with Bruce Hayman, the former US

34
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,480
Speaker 1: Ambassador to Canada during the Obama administration, co author of

35
00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,240
Speaker 1: the best selling memoir The Arts of Diplomacy, Strengthening the

36
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 1: Canada US Relationship in Times of Uncertainty, and I think

37
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,200
Speaker 1: that's what we can call this time now. Ambassador, Welcome

38
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 1: back to Bloomberg, It's great to have you here. To

39
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,520
Speaker 1: what extent we'll China be looming over this whole visit.

40
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:16,000
Speaker 1: I think it will be a significant issue, especially juxtaposed

41
00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,959
Speaker 1: to the visit that took place just earlier this week

42
00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,760
Speaker 1: with she visiting Putina. You know, you have the president

43
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 1: of the United States, the largest economy in the world

44
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,760
Speaker 1: and the largest military of visiting our best friend Canada,

45
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,360
Speaker 1: and you have the second largest military and economy of

46
00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 1: the world visiting it's newfound close friend. Putin the juxtaposition

47
00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:46,160
Speaker 1: of that is stark, and you have authoritarian regime versus democracy.

48
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,680
Speaker 1: And there's going to be a whole lot of discussion here,

49
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 1: especially as that it pertains to Ukraine and helping out

50
00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,840
Speaker 1: Ukraine throughout this process. I want to ask you about

51
00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 1: China visa v Ukraine here in just a second. But

52
00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,520
Speaker 1: I know you're not a tech expert. You are a

53
00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 1: China expert, and to the extent that you appreciate this

54
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,920
Speaker 1: debate surrounding TikTok Canada. By the way, band TikTok on

55
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,320
Speaker 1: government devices just like the US did, Is it too

56
00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,800
Speaker 1: considering a full band like the US as well? And

57
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,000
Speaker 1: how concerned are you about that, just this general worry

58
00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:24,120
Speaker 1: about China cataloging our personal data. So cataloging personal data

59
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 1: is a concern period and so you have to think

60
00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,120
Speaker 1: about Americans across the border want their data protected, and

61
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 1: there's concern even within our own companies in the United States.

62
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,240
Speaker 1: But when you have you know, governments around the world,

63
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 1: and in this particular case, China having access to US

64
00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,920
Speaker 1: data in the way that they would through when due

65
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,960
Speaker 1: through TikTok, it is a concern. I mean, we saw

66
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,080
Speaker 1: this concern with Huawei and Huawei devices. Yea. We need

67
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 1: to ensure the protection of our citizens. And it isn't

68
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:04,560
Speaker 1: about you know, necessarily policing our citizens in terms of

69
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,880
Speaker 1: what types of communication they do with each other. This

70
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,880
Speaker 1: is about the data that is collected and used by

71
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,320
Speaker 1: countries outside of the United States. In this case China.

72
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,920
Speaker 1: Is it as much of a conversation in Canada as

73
00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 1: it is in the US, you know it maybe even

74
00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,279
Speaker 1: a little bit more because they are now even looking

75
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 1: at US companies in Facebook and Instagram and Twitter, etc.

76
00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 1: And the use of that data that is held in

77
00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 1: the US. So now for a country like Canada, they're

78
00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 1: looking at data across the board and even thinking about

79
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,640
Speaker 1: ways of taxing you know, news information and forcing you know,

80
00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 1: local content within some of these platforms. So you know,

81
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,640
Speaker 1: it's a it's a very significant issue to Canada, and

82
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,960
Speaker 1: you know Chining the particular. People have to remember the

83
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,000
Speaker 1: whole issue of two Canadians being held by the Chinese

84
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,359
Speaker 1: for a fair bit of time, the two Mipeles, and

85
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,800
Speaker 1: so the Chinese issues is significant one and over the

86
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,599
Speaker 1: last few weeks many Americans haven't been following this, but

87
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,800
Speaker 1: it is big news in Canada with regard to the

88
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,840
Speaker 1: Chinese interference in their elections, and it looks like they

89
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:29,200
Speaker 1: were directly, potentially directly involved in their last election for

90
00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 1: Prime Minister. Well, we still, i guess, have a lot

91
00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,520
Speaker 1: in common with our neighbors to the north here. Ukraine

92
00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,200
Speaker 1: is going to be obviously a big point of discussion,

93
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,919
Speaker 1: but it also involves China ambassador. When Joe Biden and

94
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,719
Speaker 1: Justin Trudeau sit down when they address Ukraine, how does

95
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:53,040
Speaker 1: this she visit to Moscow inform their discussions. There's been

96
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,320
Speaker 1: talk of China, for instance, providing lethal weaponry to Russia,

97
00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 1: which is a big deal to both of these leaders.

98
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,479
Speaker 1: So you have to remember Canada is one of our

99
00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,599
Speaker 1: five Eye partners. So on an intelligence basis, we share

100
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,520
Speaker 1: the deepest intelligence with Canada that we share with our

101
00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:16,040
Speaker 1: other critical allies. They're a NATO partner and member, and

102
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,480
Speaker 1: so the combination of all that means that the depth

103
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,359
Speaker 1: of this conversation will be at a very different level

104
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,719
Speaker 1: than the President might have with some other country visits

105
00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,279
Speaker 1: that he takes place. So this will go many layers

106
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:34,520
Speaker 1: deep into the highly classified levels, and they will be

107
00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,880
Speaker 1: able to discuss their concerns and operational activities that may

108
00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 1: be taking place in Europe at levels that we're not

109
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 1: going to even be privy too. Yeah. Sure, you know,

110
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,400
Speaker 1: it's hard to remember in this new cycle that we're

111
00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,359
Speaker 1: in now, the banking crisis and the block, the talk

112
00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,080
Speaker 1: and everything that's capturing our attention this week and last,

113
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,880
Speaker 1: the markets, the reaction from the Federal Reserve and so forth,

114
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 1: it was only a couple of weeks ago as well, Ambassador,

115
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,080
Speaker 1: that we had a balloon, a Chinese by balloon, flying

116
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,040
Speaker 1: over this country in it raked its way across Canada

117
00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 1: before it ever got here. How big of a deal

118
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,119
Speaker 1: is that for this meeting. It's a big deal. That's

119
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:21,040
Speaker 1: another point that we should raise. NORAD, which protects all

120
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 1: of North America, is a bin nationally run organization that

121
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,520
Speaker 1: it's part of the US military and the Canadian military

122
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,200
Speaker 1: that actually us in this particular case, US generals at

123
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,760
Speaker 1: NORAD also report up to the Prime Minister, and Canadian

124
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,760
Speaker 1: generals at No report up to the President's very interesting

125
00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 1: construct and so it was NORAD that did all the tracking,

126
00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 1: so Canadians and Americans at the helm, tracking and following

127
00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,160
Speaker 1: all of these intrusions. And Trudeau actually called the ball

128
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,400
Speaker 1: on one of these, right, he was the one who

129
00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 1: called for the downing of one of these UFOs, whatever

130
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,160
Speaker 1: the heck it ended up being that was over Canada

131
00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,080
Speaker 1: at the time, over the Yukon he did. And again

132
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,320
Speaker 1: people sit down and say, how is it that the

133
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,400
Speaker 1: Prime minister can have a US jet actually we shoot

134
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,280
Speaker 1: something down, and vice versa. And that's all the construct

135
00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,920
Speaker 1: of NORAD, which has been going on, you know, for

136
00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 1: sixty years and so very successful, you know, a good

137
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 1: way for our two countries to work together. Remember, the

138
00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,000
Speaker 1: early fears were Russia over the very far north in

139
00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,880
Speaker 1: the Arctic, and how do we protect the United States

140
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,440
Speaker 1: from Russia just coming over the top of the earth.

141
00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,240
Speaker 1: And so very early warning systems all across the northern

142
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 1: part of Canada. You know, Ambassador, you chuckle if you

143
00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,160
Speaker 1: sell the story that we have on the Bloomberg terminal

144
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,160
Speaker 1: here suggesting many Americans and Canadians knew of NORAD chiefly

145
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,400
Speaker 1: because of the Santa tracker on Christmas Eve until this

146
00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,040
Speaker 1: thing was shot down. This is a very important part

147
00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,600
Speaker 1: of our relationship. It sounds to me as I kind

148
00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,439
Speaker 1: of back off of this and listen to what you're saying. Yes, China,

149
00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 1: but security is issue number one broadly in this meeting.

150
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,360
Speaker 1: I think it is, and I think that there's the

151
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,239
Speaker 1: tense if there isn't going to be a tense conversation,

152
00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,160
Speaker 1: which I've been part of previously, it's having a conversation

153
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,439
Speaker 1: with the Canadians to cover their fair share of military

154
00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:23,000
Speaker 1: spending and contribution. And so they are, you know, at

155
00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 1: the lower end of contributing as a percentage of GDP

156
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 1: of our NATO members, and so if you look across

157
00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,400
Speaker 1: the board, it's the Canadians that are a little short here,

158
00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 1: and so there may be pressure from the White House

159
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,839
Speaker 1: to look for additional contributions that may be nor AD enhancement.

160
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 1: They've already announced that modernization, but I think the US

161
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,360
Speaker 1: wants to do it at a much faster pace. That

162
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,000
Speaker 1: sounds very trumpy. Is that something that Joe Biden brings

163
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,000
Speaker 1: up directly? Yeah? I think, you know, the Obama team

164
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,880
Speaker 1: brought it up very directly. I did with two different

165
00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,319
Speaker 1: Canadian governments. What did you hear back to government? Yeah, yes,

166
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna make every effort we're trying. We're gonna we're

167
00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 1: gonna join you with that two percent target. They won't

168
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,120
Speaker 1: say commitment, and you know, they want to have credit

169
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,960
Speaker 1: for you know, we put actually people on the ground

170
00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,319
Speaker 1: training and we do a lot of things. The Canadians

171
00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,959
Speaker 1: you know, are very good, um at explaining why they

172
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,720
Speaker 1: haven't hit that number, you know, but you know, realistically, um,

173
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,520
Speaker 1: they they're not going to get attacked in Canada, and

174
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,200
Speaker 1: so having huge military spending, um maybe you know without

175
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 1: the US here, I mean US will be there and

176
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,760
Speaker 1: so their need for a huge military spendings lessons. They

177
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 1: operate differently around the world, so you know, it's a

178
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,040
Speaker 1: balance of what we like from them and what's there,

179
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,160
Speaker 1: what their needs are. Well, we've also had our differences

180
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,320
Speaker 1: on things like the Chips Act, the IRA other sort

181
00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,760
Speaker 1: of America First programs if God forbid. They don't mean

182
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,560
Speaker 1: to confuse administrations here, but Canada wants to have a

183
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,640
Speaker 1: piece of this, particularly when it comes to things like

184
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,440
Speaker 1: chips and evs. Do they iron some of that out tonight?

185
00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,560
Speaker 1: I think they can over the next twenty four hours.

186
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,800
Speaker 1: You see, Canada has something we really need and it's

187
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 1: for our own national security, and that's critical minerals, and

188
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,720
Speaker 1: they have a lot of it. Remember, Canada's the second

189
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,400
Speaker 1: largest landmass country in the world, and they have huge

190
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,680
Speaker 1: resources here in terms of minerals, and so I think

191
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,760
Speaker 1: this is an aspect because we're very reliant on other

192
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:35,280
Speaker 1: countries to fill that EV component around the world, China

193
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,280
Speaker 1: being one of those places. In China acquiring a lot

194
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,360
Speaker 1: of resources throughout Africa and elsewhere in the world that

195
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,880
Speaker 1: you know, this is a good way for US national

196
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,320
Speaker 1: security to lock in an agreement here with Canada's on

197
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,000
Speaker 1: critical mineral way and that just brings us right back

198
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,960
Speaker 1: to China, doesn't it reducing our dependence on China for

199
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,200
Speaker 1: rare earths for minerals that are needed to make these chips.

200
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,600
Speaker 1: Great conversation, Ambassador Glad you could join us today Bruce Hayman,

201
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,480
Speaker 1: the former US Ambassador to Canada with US as we

202
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,960
Speaker 1: get things started here on a Thursday, we'll call it

203
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,640
Speaker 1: Little Friday in Washington, as we assembled our panel, Rick

204
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,440
Speaker 1: Davis this year, Genie Schanzano too, Bloomberg Politics contributors. We

205
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,160
Speaker 1: have our signature panel. Everything is going to be okay, Rick,

206
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,520
Speaker 1: When you consider America's hat as some call Canada, how

207
00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,040
Speaker 1: important is this relationship? This is a critical relationship. I mean,

208
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,079
Speaker 1: ambassador did a really terrific job of documenting a lot

209
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 1: of the issues that we share, you know, massive trade relationship,

210
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,000
Speaker 1: strategic relationship through Norad. You know, they protect our border,

211
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 1: we protect. There's there's actually a lot to talk about

212
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,320
Speaker 1: on this trip around immigration. There's some new activity on

213
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,280
Speaker 1: the border from Canadian and US immigration back and forth.

214
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,320
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that it was a relationship

215
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,079
Speaker 1: that was strained due to the Trump administration's renegotiation of

216
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,480
Speaker 1: NAFTA and some of the insults hurtled back and forth

217
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,319
Speaker 1: over that negotiation. And so this is an opportunity to

218
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,360
Speaker 1: breathe new I have new positivity into it. And of

219
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,600
Speaker 1: course the message of the day today around China is

220
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,680
Speaker 1: that's going to be one of the biggest topics that

221
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,120
Speaker 1: are discussed, in addition to the military aid that's going

222
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,679
Speaker 1: to Ukraine from Canada. That's you know why we wanted

223
00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,559
Speaker 1: to talk to the ambassador, Genie, because China. All roads

224
00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,240
Speaker 1: lead to China. Whether you're talking about the TikTok band

225
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,199
Speaker 1: here in the US or even in Ottawa, or this

226
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,280
Speaker 1: conversation about national security data collection, the war in Ukraine

227
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,960
Speaker 1: and so forth, you just cannot escape it. I wonder

228
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,360
Speaker 1: your thoughts about what the ambassador said, Genie, Joe Biden

229
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 1: asking for a greater contribution to NATO. Yeah, I mean,

230
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,680
Speaker 1: it's a really unprecedented focus on China, whether you're looking

231
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,840
Speaker 1: at it from the perspective of Congress, the President going overseas,

232
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 1: and that is the number one issue on everybody's minds,

233
00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,360
Speaker 1: and it is particularly important that he's going to ask

234
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,200
Speaker 1: for increased contributions to NATO. We know this was a

235
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,200
Speaker 1: real sticking point during the Trump administration. It continues to be,

236
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,760
Speaker 1: and of course Joe Biden is intimately concerned that our alliances,

237
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,080
Speaker 1: our NATO allies, continue to support our efforts in Ukraine

238
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,320
Speaker 1: and continue to move forward in a positive direction and

239
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,240
Speaker 1: don't leave him on the chopping block domestically, so to

240
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,880
Speaker 1: speak with people on the right and quite frankly on

241
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 1: the far left, saying, hey, we're contributing a lot more

242
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,080
Speaker 1: than anybody else. We need to deal with our problems

243
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,320
Speaker 1: here at home. So I think that's critically important, and

244
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,440
Speaker 1: I also think it is fascinating when you think about

245
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 1: the electoral issue that both that's right, sounding familiar. All right,

246
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,560
Speaker 1: that's our first swing by the panel. We embrace TikTok next,

247
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 1: or will we ban it? You're listening to the Bloomberg

248
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 1: Sound on podcast. Catch the program live weekdays at one

249
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,440
Speaker 1: Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com,

250
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,360
Speaker 1: and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live

251
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,680
Speaker 1: on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just

252
00:14:54,800 --> 00:15:01,040
Speaker 1: say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty. TikTok deals our attention

253
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,000
Speaker 1: today in Washington. That's the big hearing we were talking

254
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 1: about in the US House Energy and Commerce Committee, where

255
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,600
Speaker 1: the CEO of TikTok has had quite the day so

256
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,520
Speaker 1: far with lawmakers everybody, they're hardly you know, not even

257
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,480
Speaker 1: that many questions. Just there's been a lot of grandstanding,

258
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,960
Speaker 1: a lot of bludgeoning, a lot of criticism, and there's

259
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,000
Speaker 1: probably a lot more where that came from. As lawmakers

260
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 1: consider legislation, and there are a couple of bills we've

261
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,440
Speaker 1: discussed that could potentially ban TikTok. There is one directly

262
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 1: block the talk, the Marco Rubio bill would just ban

263
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,520
Speaker 1: the thing straight out. Then you've got the Senator Mark

264
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,920
Speaker 1: Warner bill, and he's going to join us a little

265
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,840
Speaker 1: bit later on this hour that we give the Treasury

266
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 1: the tools to banned companies like TikTok, suggesting that there

267
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,800
Speaker 1: might be another to replace it, So why just ban

268
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,560
Speaker 1: the app? Take a more broad approach? Inside this hearing though,

269
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 1: my goodness, the back and forth has been really something. Uh.

270
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,800
Speaker 1: Congresswoman Anna Su speaking with the CEO of TikTok against

271
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,200
Speaker 1: So Sho about the collection of data. How you can

272
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,200
Speaker 1: actually say, and you spoke in your opening statement about

273
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 1: a firewall relative to the data, but the Chinese government

274
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:23,200
Speaker 1: has that data, how can you promise that that that

275
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,800
Speaker 1: will move into into the United States of America be

276
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,840
Speaker 1: protected here? I have seen no evidence that the Chinese

277
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,640
Speaker 1: government has access to that data. They have never asked us.

278
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,680
Speaker 1: We have not provided. Well, you know, I've asked that.

279
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,600
Speaker 1: I find that actually preposterous. I'll tell you a lot

280
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 1: more where that came from. But really, this is s

281
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,400
Speaker 1: you talking to so Shue. You can't write this stuff.

282
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,960
Speaker 1: Let's reassemble the panel. Rick Davis and Gene Schanzano were

283
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 1: here and we spent a lot of time talking about this, uh,

284
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,800
Speaker 1: this effort to ban TikTok. How about this exercise today though, Rick?

285
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,400
Speaker 1: Was it productive? Yeah? I think so. I mean, you know,

286
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,119
Speaker 1: one thing is it's partly to inform the public. Public

287
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,119
Speaker 1: probably has a lot of questions, is what really is

288
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,880
Speaker 1: the vulnerability of TikTok? And this is laying it out

289
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,639
Speaker 1: in full color. As you say, the members aren't really

290
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,240
Speaker 1: asking as many questions as they are making statements, But

291
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 1: that is in an effort to try and create public

292
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,520
Speaker 1: consensus around the idea that we got to do something

293
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,680
Speaker 1: to limit or ban TikTok. And and remember one hundred

294
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,800
Speaker 1: and fifty million people and if the government's going to

295
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 1: do something about it, they better have convinced people that

296
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,359
Speaker 1: it's a better thing to have gotten rid of it

297
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,879
Speaker 1: or limited it than to let them have free and

298
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,359
Speaker 1: open access to it. Genie at a certain point here.

299
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,920
Speaker 1: You know, the influencers are all over Capitol Hill right now.

300
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,440
Speaker 1: They held a little protest outside on the swamp. They're

301
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 1: now in their images and videos to prove it. On

302
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,959
Speaker 1: your own TikTok you've probably seen it. They're in the rotunda,

303
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,680
Speaker 1: they're lip syncing. All. The stuff of the argument is that, hey,

304
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,520
Speaker 1: it's not just like you know, teenagers on this thing.

305
00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,640
Speaker 1: There are five million businesses that use TikTok as a platform,

306
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 1: as a conduit to reach customers. Does that matter to

307
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,119
Speaker 1: these lawmakers, you know, not to the lawmakers on this

308
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,439
Speaker 1: particular panel. We've only seen Jamal Bowman, you know, just

309
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,080
Speaker 1: a very few come out in defense of TikTok. Perhaps

310
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,680
Speaker 1: we see more as the numbers you're talking about or

311
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,639
Speaker 1: bandied about. You know, one hundred and fifty million users.

312
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,040
Speaker 1: Just the other day we were told it was one

313
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 1: hundred It is now one hundred and fifty millions. The

314
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,439
Speaker 1: thousands of workers, the five million businesses. This is big.

315
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,640
Speaker 1: So it may have an impact, particularly an election year.

316
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,879
Speaker 1: But that said, there is really I can't remember really

317
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,640
Speaker 1: in my lifetime something that has crossed this bipartisan divide

318
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 1: in the way this confront China has and TikTok is

319
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,240
Speaker 1: swept up in that. We've seen it in a variety

320
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,720
Speaker 1: of perspectives in the one hundred and eighteen in a

321
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 1: way I can't remember, So you know, they are caught

322
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,800
Speaker 1: up in this. And I think one of the unfortunate

323
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,160
Speaker 1: issues here is that there are many other companies, if

324
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,000
Speaker 1: you talk about privacy of Americans data, which are collecting

325
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 1: our data. And that's one great thing about Senator Senator

326
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,359
Speaker 1: Warners Bill when you're going to talk to him, is

327
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,760
Speaker 1: his is agnostic. It's not just focused on TikTok, and

328
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,399
Speaker 1: I think that's particularly important. Privacy matter, security matters, but

329
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 1: it's not just TikTok that violates this. The statement from

330
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 1: so Shoe, he had a very carefully written opening statement.

331
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 1: Of course, Rick, that's the way these things go. But

332
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 1: he said, point blank, China is not collecting data. We

333
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 1: are not an agent of China. Is the fact that

334
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 1: he said that suggests exactly the opposite. Yeah, Look, I

335
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 1: watched his opening statement, and he used language that was

336
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 1: crafted by the best lobbyists in Washington to actually say

337
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 1: nothing and try to make an impact. Look, the reality

338
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 1: is their laws on the books in China that give

339
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 1: the CCP direct access to any data any company has

340
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 1: at any time. Right, if you want to function in

341
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,480
Speaker 1: mainland China, your books are open to the CCP. And

342
00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 1: so whether they've done it now or whether they're going

343
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 1: to do in the future is really irrelevant. It's the

344
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 1: fact that they have this access to use anytime they want.

345
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 1: And we know they've manipulated that data, you know, when

346
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 1: they've gone after journalists, and he had no explanation for

347
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,359
Speaker 1: how that happened. And so the reality is, you know,

348
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,200
Speaker 1: this is kabuki theater for him. The goose is cooked

349
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 1: on TikTok, and the question is how bad is it

350
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 1: going to be. He's not going to do anything to

351
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,119
Speaker 1: commence Congress otherwise, But I would remind everybody this is

352
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 1: sort of chapter two. Chapter one was Huawei, Right, We

353
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 1: had to ban Huawei from having access to our telecommunications

354
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,160
Speaker 1: networks here and on virtually every Western state because the

355
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: same thing was eligible for Huawei is that they could

356
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 1: spy on Americans and other allies by virtue of being

357
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 1: on their network. Not that Huawei is a business made

358
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 1: it their business to spy, but that the CCP, the

359
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,840
Speaker 1: China Communist party had access to any data Huahwei produced,

360
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 1: and that includes on everybody that uses their system, which

361
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 1: is why they're no longer in the United States. Wow,

362
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 1: a lot there, genie of lawmakers aren't going to believe anything.

363
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 1: So Shoe says, why are we even doing this? Just

364
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: ban it? No, Well, you know they all want to

365
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 1: of course grandstand as you say, they want to get there.

366
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 1: Of course out there, this is a very popular way

367
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: to confront TikTok, and you know that is something that

368
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: both sides think is going to resonate. Now. I think

369
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 1: they are very concerned about the national security implications and

370
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: I'm not sure there is there is the support at

371
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,400
Speaker 1: this moment for a straight out ban, which is why

372
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 1: again Warner's approach is so important. That does have bipartisan

373
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 1: support in a way Rubio's might not. But I do

374
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: think again it's critically important that we think about the

375
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 1: idea that simply banning TikTok or confronting it does not

376
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 1: put this genie back in the bottle. We have many

377
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,919
Speaker 1: other companies out there collecting data can be influenced and

378
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 1: are influenced by the Chinese government, and it is very

379
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 1: capable of all those companies to sell that data to

380
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 1: the Chinese government. So you know, I think we do

381
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: ourselves a disservice if we just focus narrowly on the

382
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 1: issue of TikTok, as popular as that is at the moment.

383
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: We have to do a better job of protecting our

384
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: data overall and our privacy overall. Europe has done that

385
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,120
Speaker 1: very well, the US has not. What do you think here, Rick,

386
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: if so shoe cannot answer anyone's question. If the five

387
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 1: million businesses are not a concern to lawmakers, maybe that

388
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 1: even makes them want to ban it more me or

389
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: they're taking business data. This is going to happen, right,

390
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: why not just ban it? I actually disagree with Jennie.

391
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 1: I think this is going to get banned. I think

392
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: even if a Warner bill passes, it goes to the

393
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: Commerce Department, which is a member of the Cifius review

394
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: that's going on right now. If Sifias says they cannot

395
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: be trusted, that's going to result in a ban in

396
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: its own right. And if Commerce Department is got the

397
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: mandate for this, I would be shocked that the Biden

398
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: administration doesn't take the same action of banning it on

399
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: everybody else's personal units in the United States, as they've

400
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: done with the government. And so I think we're just

401
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 1: going through a process of education right now. I think

402
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 1: the the fork is in this turkey. I mean, like

403
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 1: this thing is cooked. And and so I think that

404
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: it's good to have the right legal framework to do this. Uh.

405
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: Donald Trump wanted to ban TikTok, and he didn't have

406
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: the legal framework on his side. So we're going through

407
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,479
Speaker 1: that process now. And because we're open uh democratic society,

408
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 1: we're doing that in full public view. Uh. And and

409
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: so I think this we're doing this the right way.

410
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 1: But the reality is that that that this is an

411
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: intersection of national security and privacy. And so there are

412
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: a lot of companies that don't have the national security

413
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: exposure because they're owned, uh, you know by US companies

414
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: and US investors and and and and yet if there

415
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: are Chinese companies that are collecting data, they're gonna fall

416
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: the same prey h to these kind of limitations that

417
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 1: TikTok's in the process are going through. Genie. If TikTok

418
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: is banned, is that a win for Elon Musk with

419
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: an eye on Twitter obviously could do pretty well without

420
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: a competitor like that, yet Elon Musk is deeply tied

421
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: to the Chinese governments through his company Tesla. That's right.

422
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 1: It could be a win for YouTube, it could be

423
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: a win for Facebook, it could be a win for Twitter,

424
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: for all of these companies that are attempting to pick

425
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: up some of that market share. But let's just be clear,

426
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: there are a lot of companies selling data to China, Gmail, Instagram, Facebook,

427
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: You can go down the line. Plus, if you ban

428
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: the thing, there are VPN workarounds. Any five year old

429
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: knows how to do that. So you know, this is

430
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: a very hard thing to confront. We need to do

431
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: a better job regulating our data overall and not just

432
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: confronting one company. And that is where I think this

433
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 1: is short sighted. I do like the Warner approach, but

434
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 1: it is the Rubio narrow approach that I think is problematic.

435
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: You're listening to The Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the

436
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, tune

437
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: in a Bloomberg dot com, and the Bloomberg Business app.

438
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

439
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven

440
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: thirty House lawmakers today spending time with TikTok CEO So Shoe,

441
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: and we are going to now spend some time with

442
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: the author of the Restrict Act, the legislation that would

443
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: give the administration the tools to band TikTok. That, of

444
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 1: course would be Senator Mark Warner, the Democrat from Virginia,

445
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: who is on more committees than most people are aware of,

446
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: is with us right now, including the very important Intelligence Committee,

447
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: which brings us to this conversation. Senator, I want to

448
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: welcome you back to Bloomberg. It's great to have you

449
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: on a busy day here as the author of this legislation.

450
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: Do you think today's hearing in the House was productive? Well, Joe,

451
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: thanks for having me on, and I do think it

452
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 1: was productive. I think, you know, I didn't see much

453
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: of the hearing running around on other stuff, but I've

454
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: got lots of reports, and I kind of feel for

455
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: the CEO because he doesn't have an answer, you know,

456
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: end of the day. TikTok is owned by Byte Dance.

457
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: Bye Dance is a Chinese company. Chinese law as of

458
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen says every Chinese company the first obligation is

459
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: not shareholders or customers. Their first obligation is they got

460
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: to turn over any information or any kind of ability

461
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: to manipulate content to the Communist Party of China. That's

462
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: kind of that's why this is a national security risk. Listen,

463
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: I got concerns with the Facebook, at Google and Amazon

464
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: and some of the things. We need a privacy legislation,

465
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: we need kids online safety. But the fact that one

466
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: hundred fifty million Americans are on TikTok about ninety minutes

467
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: a day, and it is so it's such a set

468
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: up to app it learns from you. So all that

469
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: could end up in the Counties Party's hands. And the

470
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: fact that people are on ninety minutes a day on TikTok,

471
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 1: think about if the content decides. Sijaman says, well, you

472
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: know what, now I've been with Putin and Russia, maybe

473
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: I want to start having little content flipping into all

474
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: of your tat videos that says, you know, Rush is

475
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: right on Ukraine. So both the content manipulation data collection

476
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: makes us a national security issue. And I think you're

477
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: seeing folks from both the both sides the Aisle absolutely

478
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: united on this issue. Have you spoken with Soshue yourself.

479
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: Is he not an honest broker? Senator? Now, I have

480
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: spoken with the CEO trying to make representations, But what

481
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: we've seen is time after time where TikTok has had

482
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: to acknowledge well, actually this did end up Chinese engineers

483
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: looking at some of this material. Oh, it did end

484
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: up that TikTok was being used to follow journalist. Well,

485
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: maybe there was some content modification. And you know, one

486
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: of the best selling points is there is a different

487
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: company that is a TikTok version in China, and that

488
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: version it can just Unfortunately young people, the only kind

489
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: of content they see is study hard, be a good engineer,

490
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: be a patriot for China. That in itself shows how

491
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: content can be manipulated, because our kids and most of

492
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: the folks on TikTok are not getting that kind of content. Yeah.

493
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: So what are you hearing from your colleagues? Do you

494
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: have the votes to get this done? I mean it

495
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: seems like there's critical master we've got. We have twenty

496
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: senators so far, ten Democrats, ten Republicans, and you know, Joe,

497
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: getting twenty senators agree on anything is a bit of

498
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: a risk. We have the administration support. We've got lots

499
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: of my House Republican friends who said, hey, you know, Mark,

500
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: let us get through the hearing today. And it appears,

501
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, virtually total bipartisan support on the hearing for

502
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,239
Speaker 1: taking action. And one of the reasons why I think

503
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: our approach makes sense is that it's not the kind

504
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: of one off we'll let's just go after TikTok or

505
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: the whackamle approach. Because we're talking about TikTok today. Couple

506
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: of years back, it was Walway before that, it was Kaspersky,

507
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: a Russian software company. We ought to have a set

508
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: of rules for technology products that come into America that

509
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: come from Russia and China, ran North Korea, where the

510
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: Secretary of Commerce has got the tools in place to

511
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: either require divestiture ban or some other kind of restrictions,

512
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: so that we can do this in a rule spased approach.

513
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: TikTok hout to have its day in court, but if

514
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: if we can make the case, if the Secretary can

515
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: make the case, and one of the things my bill

516
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: requires as well is for the intelligence community to frankly

517
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: declassify as much information as possible so it's not hey,

518
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: just trust us, I think this is the approach that

519
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: will not only deal with TikTok, but with future technology.

520
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: I think for a moment, we've I think everybody's been

521
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: kind of amazed at the power, the AI power within

522
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: chat GBT. I think for a moment, if you had

523
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: the authoritarian values represented by the Common Party, if suddenly

524
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: China had the definitive AI tool sweeping crust our country

525
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: of the world, that would be if people didn't don't

526
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: understand that as a potential master security risk, then so

527
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: I'm not doing a very good job. Yeah, I got you.

528
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: I mean, my goodness that that could already be happening

529
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: right because we don't have the damn algorithm, so we

530
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: don't actually know what's in there. Senator from you go ahead,

531
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: you just hit something, Joe there. I think was really

532
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: interesting as well that the Chinese government has an effect,

533
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: say they would rather go ahead and have a ban

534
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: on TikTok in America if the price of having a

535
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: divestiture would be China happened to give up the algorithm,

536
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: which is the source code the secret sauce, and have

537
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: that actually reside in America or some third country. If

538
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: that is not again evidence that they feel like this

539
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: tool can be used to manipulate content. Why would they

540
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: feel keeping in in China was so essential absolute? These

541
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: are really important questions and I'd love to know when

542
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: this sees a vote. Do you have any sense of

543
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: timeline on the Restrict Acts. I think we had to

544
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: get through the hearing today. I think we've got a

545
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: number of people in the House that will there'll be

546
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: a House version of this, hope is as early as

547
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: next week, and you let let may also be clear

548
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 1: to your audience in doing the Restrict Act, dealing with

549
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: foreign based technology is issuing the national security concerns. We

550
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: still need additional law that says we ought to have

551
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: a national privacy law so that whether it's you know,

552
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: Facebook or YouTube or other platforms, we ought to have

553
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: a kid's online safety law because there is a lot

554
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: of mental health and other harm done on these platforms.

555
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: But there is as many beast as I have. For example,

556
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: of Facebook, all of the years, at the end of

557
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: the day, they still have to answer to shareholders, customers,

558
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: and they have to reside under American law. That is

559
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: not the case with TikTok, who was controlled by Bye Dance,

560
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: which is a Chinese company, Yes right, Senator. Uh. Lastly,

561
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: from your perch on the Banking and Finance Committees, are

562
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: you upset the FED hike rates yesterday? Did J Powell

563
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: just make the banking crisis worse? I wish that Chairman

564
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: Powell had taken a pause, but let me also acknowledge

565
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: that he was gonna be d d if he didn't.

566
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: And I had been generally supported before this this banking

567
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: crisis came up. I actually it appeared to me that

568
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: the treasured FoST landing of kind of threading the NEIL.

569
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: I think they were doing a pretty darn good job.

570
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: I do wish he'd done a pause, but you know,

571
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: he's got hopefully more access to data than than I do.

572
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: I do think as well. I heard some of the

573
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: commentary earlier. I mean, this was not a capital crisis,

574
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: this is not a credit crisis. This was, in my mind,

575
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: two things happening. One basic banking one on one, this

576
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: match on interest rates. The traditional prudential regulator should have

577
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: done more. And this would have been the case whether

578
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: it was a five billion dollars bank or a five

579
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars Right in the second one, Joe and

580
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: I don't have it. I don't have an answer. I'm

581
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: wide open for business on how we deal with this.

582
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: We've never seen an Internet based one like this. You

583
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 1: know WAMU when it went under. That bank lost sixteen

584
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: billion in ten days and they had to close it.

585
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: This bank lost forty two billion dollars in six hours,

586
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: the equipment of twenty five cents on every dollar. And

587
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: it was spurred. And this is the part that makes

588
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: me crazy because I used to be a venture capitalist,

589
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: but it was spurred by certain venture capitalists on the

590
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: Wednesday before the run started, basically shouting fire in a

591
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: crowded theater on Twitter. And so that that whole notion

592
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: of how do you stop something that could be manipulated

593
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: Potentially I'm not saying it was, but potentially or what happened,

594
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: I've been a concern for a while. I'm not to

595
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: spook the whole audience, but you know, on this whole

596
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 1: notion of deep fake technology, where somebody could appears in

597
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 1: a video that not really that person. I've been scared

598
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: for years that somebody would be manipulating market using deep fakes.

599
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: So this whole intersection between technology and markets again, I

600
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: don't I don't pretend to have the answer, but I

601
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: don't know what regulatory framework would have stopped a run

602
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: that's amount to twenty five cents on every dollar of deposit.

603
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: It is. It is scary, Senator, and I do appreciate

604
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,479
Speaker 1: your joining us throughout this crisis to get a better

605
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: sense of what is going on. That's Mark Warner, the

606
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: Democrat from Virginia Intelligence, Banking Finance. Yeah, TikTok too, whether

607
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: us year on the fastest show in Politics. You're listening

608
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the program live

609
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in apt,

610
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and The Bloomberg Business. You can also

611
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York

612
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: station Just Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty. TikTok consumes

613
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: our attention in Washington, even as the Defense Secretary sends

614
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: a fresh warning to China and the administration grapples with

615
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: a banking crisis that continues to confound the markets. Welcome

616
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: to the fastest show in Politics. I'm Joe Matthew in

617
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: Washington along with Anne Marie Hordern and an important conversation

618
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: with retired Admiral John Kirby, coordinator for Strategic Communications at

619
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: the National Security Council in the White House. Later, we'll

620
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 1: talk with economist Mark Zandy this day after the fete,

621
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: and we'll spend some time as well with Bloomberg's Kaylee Lions,

622
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: who has the latest on the banking response. But let's

623
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: go straight now to the north lawn of the White

624
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: House and John Kirby, Admiral welcome. It's great to see,

625
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: and I'd like to start with President She's trip to

626
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: Moscow now that he's back home in China. The Defense

627
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: Secretary Lloyd Austin said in a congressional hearing. I know

628
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: we're all obsessed with TikTok, but he was talking on

629
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 1: Capitol Hill as well. The goal, he said, is to

630
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: deter China from quote an ill advised decision. Do we

631
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: have any evidence, any suggestion that China in fact discussed

632
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: or agreed to provide lethal weaponry to Russia. All we

633
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: can really judge is by what these two leaders said

634
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: when the meetings were over. We saw nothing in those

635
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: statements and seeing no indication yet that China has made

636
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: any kind of a decision to provide lethal weapons, and

637
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: of course we've said before we don't think that's in

638
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: China's best interest and certainly would not be consistent with

639
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: the kinds of things that President She has said before

640
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: publicly about the war in Ukraine. So we're gonna keep

641
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: watching this as closely as we can, but no signs yet.

642
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: We obviously know, Admiral Kirby that the United States has

643
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: criticized China's quote unquote peace plan. But how concerned are

644
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: you that Shijing pan off the heels of his trip

645
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: to Moscow, off the heels of him brokering a deal

646
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: between Tehran and Riad that at some point he's going

647
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: to get some of these vulnerable economies around the world

648
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: to want to sign up to his version of events.

649
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: I think China is struggling mightily in certain parts of

650
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: the world to convince people that they really are acting

651
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: in others best interests. In fact, many countries in Africa

652
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: are realizing as these loans come due what kind of

653
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: financial straits, poor financial straits they're in with respect to

654
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: China and taking these very high interest loans. So I

655
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: think that's you know, those those bills are comeing do

656
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: and and China's real interests around the world are becoming

657
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: more transparent by by everybody. Now, look, if if there

658
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: can be a peace broker in Ukraine, then that's a

659
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: good thing as long as President Zelenski is supportive of it,

660
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: as long as his views have been heard, his perspectives

661
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: have been respected, and that he is a part and

662
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 1: parcel of that effort. President Biden has said many times,

663
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine, and so in the meantime,

664
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: until he is ready to sit down and negotiate with

665
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: President Putin, we've got to make sure that he's also

666
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: ready on the battlefield. Will She calls Zelenski, that's up

667
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: to President She. We would certainly encourage that. We have

668
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: made it clear that we would like to see President

669
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: She reach out to President Zalinski again. We believe he

670
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: needs to hear the Ukrainian perspective. He needs to hear

671
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: directly from President Zalinski, because otherwise anything that he would

672
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: call for in terms of a ceasefire or peace proposal

673
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: won't be credible, won't be sustainable if Ukrainian perspectives are

674
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: not factored into that, and if you don't have support

675
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: from President Zalinski. So if you're gonna fly all the

676
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: way to Moscow terrific. You ought to at least pick

677
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: up the phone and talk to President Zallensky and get

678
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: his views. What does it mean for a potential meeting

679
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: or conversation with President Biden and President She? Admiral is

680
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: that off the table now? President Biden has made it

681
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: clear that he wants to have another conversation with President She.

682
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: There's nothing on the schedule right now, but I can

683
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: assure you that another conversation will happen. It'll happen at

684
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: the most appropriate time. We don't have anything again to

685
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: announce today, but the President believes that it is really

686
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: important in this most consequential of bilateral relationships that the

687
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: lines of communications stay open, and we're going to continue

688
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: to work on multiple ways to do that. For instance,

689
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: we're still going to work to get Secretary Blincoln back

690
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: to Beijing. That trip was postponed, it wasn't canceled, and

691
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 1: in conversations with the PRC and at their invitation, we

692
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: are now looking at plans to have Secretary Yellen and

693
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: Secretary Raimondo go over to China to discuss economic issues.

694
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: So that's all good, and we want to keep those

695
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: lines of communication open, and that would include certainly a

696
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: conversation between President She and President Putin. We're hearing continuous

697
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: references to the axis here Russia and China. How does

698
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: the administration look at this alliance? Is this East versus West? Now?

699
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: I think, first of all, calling this an alliance is

700
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: a bit of a stretch. I've referred to it as

701
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: a marriage of convenience, certainly not one of affection. President

702
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: She seasoned President Putin a useful foil counterweight to American influence,

703
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: particularly in Europe. President putincies and President She perhaps a

704
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: bank role and an opportunity to get more assistance so

705
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: that he can continue to prop up his economy and

706
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: to fight this war. That they're working together because they

707
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: believe that they need each other for very discreete not

708
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: necessarily completely overlapping goals. We're not looking here for a

709
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: world divided by blocks. But I think one thing you

710
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: need to consider as you consider this visit to Moscow

711
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: by President She is that it's also a manifestation of

712
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: how much China and Russia know that American leadership on

713
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: the world stage is back, and how much they recognize

714
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 1: that our network of alliances and partnerships is stronger than

715
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: any network they might have. These are two countries with

716
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: not a lot of friends, and that those in that

717
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: network is getting stronger and more influential around the world.

718
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: Look at NATO, for instance, how much more relevant and

719
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: viable NATO is now. It's going to grow by another

720
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: two nations. All that's a manifestation of the leadership of

721
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: this administration in the proof that American leadership on the

722
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: world stage is in fact increasing. Admiral Kirby today in Washington,

723
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: the focus has really been on this hearing with the

724
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: TikTok CEO, and just before he went into Congress, we

725
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 1: heard from China's Ministry of Commerce and they're saying that

726
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: they would be against any sale of TikTok. Does this

727
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: social media app now become the latest salvo between Washington

728
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 1: and Beijing. It doesn't need to be that way, And

729
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: I won't get ahead of an ongoing review by the

730
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: Committee on Foreign Investment here in the United States of TikTok.

731
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: What I can tell you is we have legitimate national

732
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 1: security concerns over this particular app. That's why President Biden

733
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: has banned it from government devices. But in terms of

734
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 1: other decisions made. I've seen some press reporting out there.

735
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: I just can't get ahead of where we are in

736
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: this review. We have legitimate national security concerns over the

737
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: way this app uses data, the way it intrudes on privacy,

738
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: and those concerns have not gone away. If it's been

739
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: banned on government devices already, Admiral, and we're hearing from

740
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: lawmakers who don't even believe what they're hearing from, So shoe,

741
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: why not just banned TikTok? Why not get on with

742
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: it again? I'm not going to get ahead of an

743
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: ongoing review by the Committee on Foreign Investment. That's an

744
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: independent review. We want to respect that process. I've seen

745
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: press reporting out there about different ideas and proposals. I've

746
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: just not at liberty to talk about that at this time.

747
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: One of those press reports was from me Admiral Kirby,

748
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: and it was that Ciphius has told bite Dance that

749
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: they either you to ban it or divest. Do you

750
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: think the US government would be would have find it

751
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: acceptable for Bitte Dance to take maybe a passive stake

752
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 1: in this company? You know? Again, Amory, I appreciate the question,

753
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: and I appreciate the reporting. I'm just not going to

754
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: get ahead of where we are in the process. We've

755
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: got legitimate national security concerns about TikTok. We've already banned

756
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: on government devices. We've got an ongoing review here by

757
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: the Committee on Foreign Investment, and we're gonna respect that process.

758
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: We're gonna let that finish. Understood, it sounds like you're

759
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: not on TikTok, Admiral, we can move on because we

760
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: want to ask you about Ukraine as well, and the

761
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,959
Speaker 1: effort to get Abrams tanks to the battlefield sooner than later,

762
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: knowing that this spring offensive is about to unlock. What's

763
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: the timeline. The Pentagon has now come up with an

764
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: alternate proposal here to use a different version of the

765
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: Abrams tank that they have morning stock, get them refurbished

766
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: and get them to Ukraine. And they believe they can

767
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: do that in about ten months from now, so probably

768
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: by the fall of this year, which obviously won't be

769
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: in time for spring operations as the weather improves, but

770
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 1: it will certainly make a difference on the battlefield come fall.

771
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, don't forget that many European nations

772
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: are now providing their tanks as well, including the very

773
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: capable Leopard tanks that Germany produces, which will make a

774
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: big difference, not to mension the more than five other

775
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: armored vehicles that the United States alone has been providing

776
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: and will continue to provide Ukraine, whether that's Striker infantry vehicles,

777
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: Bradley fighting vehicles, as well as up armored humvees. So

778
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: there's a lot of armor capability going into Ukraine. Following

779
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: the Russian jet collision with the US drone, what has

780
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: been changed in terms of drones flying in the Black Sea.

781
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: There's some reporting out there that they're now flying a

782
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: lot more south of where they normally would fly after

783
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: we saw this collision. I would never talk about flying

784
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: routes for those kinds of unmanned platforms. I just would

785
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: never ever discuss that. What I can tell you is

786
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: that we are continuing to fly in international airspace over

787
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: international waters like the Black Sea, and that has not changed,

788
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 1: that will continue. Is there going to be a further

789
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 1: review about what happened with those Russian jets? I realize, Admiral,

790
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: that this is not new, that these close encounters, these

791
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: close interceptions actually go back to the Cold War and

792
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: happen on a fairly regular basis, But to actually make

793
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: contacts and lead to the destruction of US hardware, do

794
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 1: we move on? You know who should be reviewing it

795
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: and investigating it is the Russian Ministry of Defense. Rather

796
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: than pinning medals on these pilots, they ought to be

797
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: investigating how it came to be that one of their

798
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: jets manned by the way a man jet collided into

799
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 1: an unmanned US aircraft. Those are the folks that ought

800
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: to be reviewing US. I don't know of any review

801
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: or investigation we need to do. We dealt with it

802
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: as professionally as we could by getting that getting that

803
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: drone brought down into the water, giving us time to

804
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: make sure that there was nothing exploitable on board it.

805
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: But it's the Russians here who are at fault and

806
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: they should admit that they should investigate what their pilot

807
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: decided to do. Admiral Kirby, we know your wheels up

808
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: soon to go to Ottawa. What are you hoping from

809
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: the national security perspective in terms of engagement with the Canadians.

810
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 1: There's an awful lot on the agenda, very very full agenda.

811
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: Everything from from source of course nora ad modernization and

812
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: defense spending, to climate change, which affects both our countries

813
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: very very deeply. Certainly issues of migration will come up,

814
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: There'll be trade issues to talk about. I could go

815
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: on and on. It's going to be a pack day

816
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: in Ottawa tomorrow. The President's very much looking forward to this.

817
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 1: Canada is a great friend and a terrific NATO ally.

818
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: They have also been providing a terrific amount of support

819
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: to Ukraine, and I know that Prime Minister Trudeau shares

820
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: President Biden's view that we've got to stay at this,

821
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: We've got to keep supporting Ukraine. So I think certainly

822
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 1: the war in Ukraine will also be a key topic

823
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: on the agenda. I'm sure that's true. ADM will have

824
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: a great trip. Thanks for talking with us before you

825
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 1: take off. John Kirby with us from the North lawn

826
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: of the White House here on Bloomberg Sound On. I'm

827
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: Joe Matthew and Washington and Marie Hordern will stay with

828
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: us for a moment. I want to bring in Nick

829
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: Wadhams as well, who leads our national security team. Interesting

830
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: conversation there neck ahead of this trip here, but just

831
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: to sort of stay on the matter of TikTok, which

832
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: appears to be the story of the day. All roads

833
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: lead to China. It doesn't matter what story we actually

834
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: brought up with John Kirby, we're really just talking about

835
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: China here. It doesn't sound like the White House wants

836
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: to throw itself behind any legislation at the moment, though, right,

837
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 1: I mean this, as he said repeatedly, this Cifius review.

838
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 1: I think there's a legal reason why they don't want

839
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: to get in the way of that. They don't. This

840
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 1: review has been going on for quite a long time.

841
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: It's extremely complicated. What little we know of it is

842
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: that it's been subjected to a lot of factional fighting

843
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: between the Department of Justice and Treasury and the Defense

844
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: Department and others. So there's a lot of push and

845
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: pull in there. And I'm sure he does not want

846
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: to put his weight on the scale in anyone, anywhere

847
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: or the other emory. You were down there today. He

848
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: started your morning in the house outside of the hearing

849
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: room where the CEO was on his way, and he

850
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: did stop to talk to reporters. He wasn't taking questions though, right,

851
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: What was the message of questions. It was just he

852
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that the press heard his shortened

853
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: version basically of his testimony for his opening statement, a

854
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: lot of it was about that TikTok is safe, and

855
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: also he keeps pointing to this idea of Project Texas.

856
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: They call it unprecedented, but clearly as what Nick is saying,

857
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: Cyphius doesn't seem to be on board of Project Texas.

858
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 1: Our reporting is that they have gone to Bite Dance

859
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: and said divest or it's going to be banned. If

860
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: that's the case, that that means the US government at

861
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: least you can infer at the US government thinks that

862
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: Project Texas doesn't do enough to isolate and keep US

863
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: data safe enough. Do you mean any influencers while you

864
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: were there, He had a few influencers behind him. They

865
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: brought in influencers and there was a bit like are

866
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: they going to talk? Are they not going to talk?

867
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of influencers around the capitol. Some

868
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: are protesting outside, they're making videos in the rotunda. Yeah,

869
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: what do you think, Nick, You're not are you on TikTok?

870
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: I'm not on TikTok. I am not on TikTok. And

871
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: I have young children who want to be and I

872
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: told them not to be. What it happened, You'll never

873
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: get it back. You can't put the genie back in

874
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: the bottle. Yeah, I mean, it was really interesting to

875
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: hear what John Kirby just said because the debate over

876
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,720
Speaker 1: TikTok also underscores this bigger debate between the US and China,

877
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: which is like, what the heck do you do? So

878
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: he mentioned Blincoln wants to go to Beijing. They're gonna

879
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: send Yellen possibly. You know, they want to keep up

880
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: those contexts, but the rhetoric here is so intense, so

881
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: they want to They kind of want to keep in

882
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 1: a box all the things they can do together. But

883
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: China says, no, we're not going to talk to you

884
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: about all this stuff. We're not going to try to

885
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: make progress on whatever it is, climate, arms, control of

886
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: things like that. When like you have folks on the Hill,

887
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: as Representative Michael McCall did today at House Foreign Affairs

888
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: when Secretary Blincoln testified, you know, China, he called it

889
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: the pre eminent threat of our time. I mean, they

890
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: are talking about this in sort of quasi apocalyptic terms

891
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: that if we don't get control of the China threat.

892
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: The US is going to fall so far behind it

893
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,479
Speaker 1: will never be able to catch up. I mean they're

894
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: talking about it in those terms. So it's it's very

895
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: difficult to square that against what John Kirby is saying

896
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: about the administration's desire to keep up contact. Yeah, what

897
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: happens now in terms of does TikTok just become the

898
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: latest road kill that they argue about. Does China try

899
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: to use this because if you look at the Chinese

900
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: Commerce Ministry statement, they also mentioned they want the US

901
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: to lift tariffs. Do they try to use this as

902
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: a quid pro quo will allow the sale TikTok, but

903
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: you need to do something for us. I mean that

904
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: seems entirely possible. I mean, you know, I was thinking

905
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: about this this morning. Like in some ways, you also

906
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: have to imagine that China might be laughing a little

907
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: bit because so much of the debate in the US

908
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: is one side fighting against another. So you have these divisions.

909
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: You have older folks, you know, Congressman Lawmaker is going

910
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: after TikTok, younger people saying no, we want TikTok. So

911
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: it's like you've introduced this app and it's just it's

912
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,399
Speaker 1: like the Chinese balloon Taiwan, where the Chinese balloon goes

913
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: over and the result isn't necessarily like unified opposition to

914
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: what China's done. It's Democrats and Republicans going after each other,

915
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: and it's it's this sort of sewing of conflict and

916
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: division within the United States that you know in some ways.

917
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: I have no idea what's going to happen. But the

918
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: Commerce Ministry thing today was really interesting because it was

919
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 1: so definitive. It seems like we're getting to a position

920
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: where there's like an unstoppable force versus in a movable object.

921
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: I just do not know how they're going to resolve this.

922
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: I love to hear from both of you. If you

923
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 1: think nothing happens, what are the odds that nothing happens.

924
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: I think that train has has. The White House may

925
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: not be talking much bluster, but they see this in

926
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: the end being banned. I think so. I think you

927
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: have this bill from Mark Warner, who you guys have

928
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: spoken to. What he wants is to be able to

929
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: get something done. I think they really want to st

930
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: fall short of the band. They do know. Thanks for

931
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 1: listening to the sound on podcast. Make sure to subscribe

932
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else

933
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, and you can find us live

934
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: every weekday from Washington, DC at one pm Eastern Time.

935
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com