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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 2: To lose someone whom you love is one of the

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Speaker 2: toughest things that a human being will ever endure. I

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Speaker 2: know that for a fact because I've had loved ones

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Speaker 2: that have passed on, and I've also been present when

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Speaker 2: I have had to tell people that their loved ones.

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Speaker 1: Have passed on.

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Speaker 2: But you know, some say that next to a death

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Speaker 2: of a loved one, that a divorce is one of

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Speaker 2: the most brutal things a human being can go through.

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Speaker 2: You tie a lot of emotion up in it because

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Speaker 2: you see perhaps a failure, you see an end to

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Speaker 2: things that you thought had great possibilities, and there it

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Speaker 2: just crumbles right before you.

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Speaker 1: And of course the.

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Speaker 2: Really sad part is not necessarily going your own way

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Speaker 2: from the person that you thought you were going to

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Speaker 2: spend the rest of your life with. But if you

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Speaker 2: have children, they're left in the wake many times to

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Speaker 2: be battered up against the metaphorical rocks of life. Today,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about one such child. And this

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Speaker 2: case is special to me because it's a case that

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Speaker 2: I covered early on in my media and it impacted me,

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Speaker 2: I think probably like no other. Today we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about the murder of Dylan red Wine. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan and this is Body Packers, Dave. You know

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Speaker 2: when you're when you're a little boy, and you and

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Speaker 2: I used to be little boys. We spend our time

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Speaker 2: playing and having adventures, getting together with our friends, tossing

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Speaker 2: the ball around, some of the coolest times that you

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Speaker 2: can experience. But I know that for myself, I'm I

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Speaker 2: am a child of divorce. And you, yeah, and you

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Speaker 2: pay a price for it, don't you. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: not just mom and dad that might pay a price,

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Speaker 2: you know, us kids that have been through it pay

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Speaker 2: a price as well. And sometimes those those things go

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Speaker 2: unseen for years and years, and they sometimes manifest themselves

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Speaker 2: later on in life.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting how most children that grow up in a

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Speaker 3: nuclear home where divorce is not president. You just have mom,

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Speaker 3: dad and the kids, and all the children have different

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Speaker 3: stories to tell about their own upbringing based on the

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Speaker 3: when they were born, whether they're first born, middle last.

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Speaker 4: And it's the same thing.

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Speaker 3: Happens when if you're a child of divorce, except now

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Speaker 3: you extend it out because whereas in a family that

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Speaker 3: is just mom, dad and the kids, they argue about

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Speaker 3: the attention they got, or mom loved you more, Dad

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Speaker 3: loved liked you more, of that whole thing. Well, now

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Speaker 3: it's expanded because now you've got mom and dad, plus

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Speaker 3: oftentimes they're extended spouses and other half brothers and half sisters.

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Speaker 3: That it becomes a big pray and some kids have

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Speaker 3: a way of maneuvering through it better than others.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, i'd agree you. And it's like a race

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Speaker 2: you're you're jocking for. I never know what validation actually means.

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Speaker 2: People use that term all the time. I never really

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Speaker 2: know what it.

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Speaker 4: Is, ohocke Yeah, approval, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've always thought

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Speaker 4: of that. We all want to approval.

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Speaker 3: We want it from our we want it from our

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Speaker 3: mom and dad first and foremost. And the fact, you

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Speaker 3: know what I wondered, Joan in this particular case, because

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Speaker 3: I've covered it too, when when it first began as

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Speaker 3: a missing person, what happened to this thirteen year old kid,

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Speaker 3: A thirteen year old boy, Dylan red Wine goes to

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Speaker 3: visit his dad. Now his mom and dad were divorced

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Speaker 3: and Dylan did not want to go. That was made

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Speaker 3: pretty public fairly early in this whole case, but it

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Speaker 3: was Thanksgiving. He had to go there to be with

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Speaker 3: his dad for Thanksgiving. It was court ordered, so Dylan

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Speaker 3: red Wine went. He arrives at the airport in Colorado.

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Speaker 3: Dad picks him up. We have CCTV coverage. That's how

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Speaker 3: intense this case got. We saw him at Walmart, we

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Speaker 3: saw them at McDonald's. You don't see them being overly

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Speaker 3: warm with one another. There was a little distance while

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Speaker 3: they were walking, but you couldn't really see a whole lot.

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Speaker 3: But the bottom line, always being the bottom line. Dylan

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Speaker 3: red Wine did reach out to a friend and was

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Speaker 3: going to meet him the next morning. Now he's at

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Speaker 3: dad's house. And one thing to point out, Mark RedWine,

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Speaker 3: the father. His home had burned about six months earlier,

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Speaker 3: and it had recently been remodeled, and this was the

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Speaker 3: first time that Dylan had really been there since it

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Speaker 3: had been remodeled. And that means something, by the way,

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Speaker 3: as we go further into this case, forensically speaking, So

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Speaker 3: Dylan red Wine is at this house. It wasn't unfamiliar territory.

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Speaker 3: He did have friends there and he called a friend.

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Speaker 3: He reached out to a friend in the evening and

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Speaker 3: they made plans for the next morning at six thirty am.

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Speaker 3: They were going to get to get now something thirteen

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Speaker 3: year old boys. Do you know when you're thirteen and

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Speaker 3: you've got the woods open area, you can get out

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Speaker 3: there and just I know I did it, but oh

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Speaker 3: that's an age, you know what as a man now,

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Speaker 3: I want to make sure. I wanted to make sure

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Speaker 3: my boys got it, and I want to make sure

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Speaker 3: my grandson gets it that there is something beautiful like

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Speaker 3: going out in the woods at thirteen and challenging yourself

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Speaker 3: to you know, what can you do.

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Speaker 2: I'm in a tree trying trying to get back without

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Speaker 2: an open wound, bleeding.

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Speaker 4: Right, get in trouble. But you you're usually you have

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Speaker 4: a knife though, just in case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you have a knife. You're gonna you know,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna chop wood or yeah, you know, do some whittling,

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Speaker 2: or you're going to play army.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Just an adventure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. It is a grand adventure. And you

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Speaker 2: you look at that and you think and and for

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Speaker 2: kids of divorce, that's uh, that's the ultimate. Uh, that's

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Speaker 2: the ultimate fantasy world, isn't it? Because you can get

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Speaker 2: out there and you can.

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Speaker 4: I never put that together, Joe, and you.

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Speaker 2: Can Yeah, you can escape. You can escape from the

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Speaker 2: tension that's in the house. And interesting, just kind of

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Speaker 2: a little here.

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Speaker 1: I used to be.

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Speaker 2: I used to watch the show Inside the Actors Studio

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Speaker 2: where the guy would interview that James Lipton. He's passed

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Speaker 2: on now, but he would interview these actors and there

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Speaker 2: was one thing that he would always start off with

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Speaker 2: in these interviews, and he would say, we're going to

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Speaker 2: come to a common theme now that that is a

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Speaker 2: thread that runs through all of our guests.

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Speaker 1: Here.

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Speaker 2: You are a child of divorce, and I would think

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Speaker 2: about that and I thought, wow, you know, where does

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Speaker 2: some of this you know, because I don't really know

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Speaker 2: that many actors. I've got some friends that are but

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Speaker 2: not close friends, but you know, you think about where

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Speaker 2: do they get all this raw emotion from and all

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Speaker 2: these things? And I know as a divorce kid, there

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Speaker 2: is a lot of raw emotion. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: stuff that you have to work out, work through in

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Speaker 2: your mind. And I don't know. Maybe some are you know,

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Speaker 2: are drawn toward the toward the theater because just for

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Speaker 2: a moment, you can escape whatever your perception of your

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Speaker 2: reality is. At that moment and at Thanksgiving. Imagine Dylan

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Speaker 2: having to be away from the safety of his home

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Speaker 2: with his mother.

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Speaker 4: Where he wanted to be, where he wanted to be.

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Speaker 3: And it's joe interesting to point out not only did

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Speaker 3: he not want to be with his dad, the last

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Speaker 3: few times they had been together had been very tension filled,

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Speaker 3: to the point where Dylan no longer felt comfortable around

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Speaker 3: his dad. Plus, Dylan and Corey Corey is Dylan's brother,

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Speaker 3: they had found pictures on a computer of their dad. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: this divorce was already ugly, Okay, just throwing it out.

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Speaker 3: It was already ugly, and apparently Dylan and Corey both

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Speaker 3: had seen some legal documents that painted a very direct

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Speaker 3: picture of what was being claimed by their dad by

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Speaker 3: their mom. But it was the pictures they saw on

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Speaker 3: this computer that actually made them realize, this is not

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Speaker 3: a guy we want to be around. And Dylan did

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Speaker 3: not want to be there, and he had this in

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Speaker 3: the back of his head. And by the way, Mark

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Speaker 3: knew it.

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Speaker 4: He knew it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the father had a complete and total awareness. And

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Speaker 2: I just so you know, you know, I made reference

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Speaker 2: to how and I don't want to make this about

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Speaker 2: me but just to kind of give you the background

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Speaker 2: when I was asked to cover this case, and I

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Speaker 2: was actually, you know, I cover cases on Court TV.

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Speaker 2: I cover cases on a Long Crime network. And I

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Speaker 2: have friends at both places whom I care for deeply,

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Speaker 2: and I'll be friends with many of them for life.

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Speaker 2: They asked me, Long Crime asked me to cover this case,

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Speaker 2: and they send you this kind of this big packet.

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Speaker 2: You know, when you're going through it and when you

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Speaker 2: begin to look at the notes of what you're going

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Speaker 2: to cover, and I begin to read through the scene,

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Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, okay, missing young boy remains have been

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Speaker 2: found in you know, two separate locations. They're skeletonized, he's

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Speaker 2: missing for a time. Oh and then there's these pictures

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Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, oh, okay, well what are the pictures?

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Speaker 2: And then I had to do a double take when

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Speaker 2: I began to read about them, because you know, these pictures.

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Speaker 2: When you're thinking about forensic psychology, there are certain roles

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Speaker 2: that people think about from a sexual standpoint. People have

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Speaker 2: I don't want to call them call them predispositions. That's

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Speaker 2: not necessarily what they do, but they are what are

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Speaker 2: referred to as paraphilias, and there is a particular paraphilia

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Speaker 2: that is out there that's actually called corporophilia, and it

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Speaker 2: is a fascination. I hate to say this on my

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Speaker 2: own show, but it's a fascination with feces, and particular

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Speaker 2: human feces. And if you can imagine, you're a divorced kid,

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Speaker 2: you're scared, You've got tension between your parents, and you

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Speaker 2: travel along with your brother Corey, to your father's house

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Speaker 2: months prior to your disappearance, and you're digging through your

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Speaker 2: dad's computer, as you had mentioned, and you come across

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Speaker 2: a file and you look at that file. You're in

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Speaker 2: the bathroom with your brother. The door is locked, and

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Speaker 2: you click on it and there are images of your

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Speaker 2: father dressed in women's lingerie with makeup on and human

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Speaker 2: feces spread all over his face, eating from a diaper. Dave,

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Speaker 2: have you ever heard of someone saying I almost died

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Speaker 2: of embarrassment?

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Speaker 1: You ever heard that phrase before?

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Speaker 4: I've used it before. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I actually you're talking about theater and actors a minute

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Speaker 3: ago and I was thinking, okay, now your name in

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Speaker 3: my life?

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Speaker 4: Did you get my bio as? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: And it was during one of those times where I

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Speaker 3: thought I was going to be so embarrassed I was

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Speaker 3: going to die.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does happen.

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Speaker 2: And look there we commit any number of faux pause

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Speaker 2: in life, you know, things we say things we shouldn't do,

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Speaker 2: or we exit the bathroom and toilet paper is hanging

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Speaker 2: out of the backside of our pants, are stuck to

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Speaker 2: our shoe, or we've got spinach in our teeth, or

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Speaker 2: you know, or in my case, when I saw a

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Speaker 2: friend of mine I hadn't seen in years and years,

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Speaker 2: this lady that I was dear friends with when I

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Speaker 2: was a child, and she she I saw her and

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Speaker 2: she said, oh, I'm pregnant. I said, I know, and

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Speaker 2: she said I just found out yesterday. And so the

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Speaker 2: meaning is is that she had physically changed greatly and

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Speaker 2: I hadn't seen her in years.

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Speaker 4: So oh she was that. Okay, I got she had.

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Speaker 2: Increased in size, and I felt, you know, I turned

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Speaker 2: fifty shades of red. And it was very embarrassed for

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Speaker 2: having said that, And you know, I followed it up

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Speaker 2: with telling her that I love uh, that I thought

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Speaker 2: that she looked lovely, and of course I'm I'm tripping

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Speaker 2: over my tongue.

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Speaker 1: The entire time. But when you get.

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Speaker 2: When you get to the degree that Dylan's father was at,

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Speaker 2: particularly with these this paraphilia that he engaged in, and

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Speaker 2: you document it photographically, you save it, You save these

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Speaker 2: images so that I guess that you can live out

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Speaker 2: this kind of fantastical life when it's not going on,

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Speaker 2: and then suddenly your children find out about it. I

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Speaker 2: would think that that would be, I don't know, an

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Speaker 2: impetus for a rage field event.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps there was an interesting twist on this that the

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Speaker 3: boys Corey and markur Dylan rather Corey and Dylan are

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Speaker 3: the boys. They kept it to themselves at first. They

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Speaker 3: didn't immediately challenge Dad. They didn't immediately go to him

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Speaker 3: and say what are you doing?

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Speaker 4: Who are you in it? They held it. They didn't

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Speaker 4: know what to do. I mean their kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how's a kid going to know what to say?

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Speaker 3: So imagine here's Dylan. And by the way, Dylan and

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Speaker 3: his father were together on a trip to Boston to

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Speaker 3: play baseball. It was a little league thing that Dylan

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Speaker 3: was a part of. And it was on this trip

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Speaker 3: when Mark, Dylan and Corey both had been talking about

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Speaker 3: confronting their father about these pictures, and Dylan apparently had

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Speaker 3: decided he was going to use this trip to Boston

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Speaker 3: to confront him. He texted, Corey, send me the pictures.

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Speaker 3: Corey didn't send him the pictures. I don't know whether

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Speaker 3: he decided I'm not going to let Dylan do it.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna do it. Corey didn't send the pictures Dylan.

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Speaker 3: He sent these pictures to their dad on this trip

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Speaker 3: and he wrote some pretty they were from an insulting standpoint,

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Speaker 3: they were pretty awesome. I don't realize I don't remember

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Speaker 3: how old Corey is. Dylan was thirteen, but Corey wrote

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Speaker 3: you are what you eat to his dad with these

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Speaker 3: pictures that he showed him. So now on this trip

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Speaker 3: to Boston, Mark RedWine realizes that both of his sons,

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Speaker 3: or at least Corey, knows about the pictures because Corey

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Speaker 3: sent them to him. All I could think of is

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Speaker 3: that at some point in time you mentioned that it's

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Speaker 3: an actual issue. It's a I didn't realize that, Joe.

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Speaker 3: I thought, you know, there's all kinds of perversions and

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Speaker 3: things that people get into, but apparently, you know, he

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Speaker 3: was in the closet with this. Didn't want anybody to

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Speaker 3: know about it, and you've got pictures of him wearing

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Speaker 3: a red bra makeup and a diaper filled with Indian food,

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Speaker 3: you know, eaten by a child burst. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 3: just it boggles my mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's actually horrible.

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Speaker 2: I've seen not just the crime scene photos, but I've

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Speaker 2: seen these seen these images that are you know that

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Speaker 2: that are essentially the little spark that created the flame

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Speaker 2: for everything. And here's an interesting bit of forensic data

280
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Speaker 2: that arose because there's a whole line of texting messages

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Speaker 2: that went through that kind of ran up the spine

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Speaker 2: of this whole case. When Corey, the older brother, sent

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Speaker 2: that text to his father, Interestingly enough, Mark wrote back

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Speaker 2: and responded to Corey and yeah, and he said, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, and this is after, uh, after Corey had

286
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Speaker 2: told him that he's a coward, that he was nothing

287
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,959
Speaker 2: more than a sperm donor. And then Mark actually texts

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Speaker 2: back to Corey the father and says, uh, telling him

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Speaker 2: not to hurt his brother. Now he's telling the older

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Speaker 2: brother not to hurt the younger brother.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I.

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Speaker 2: Guess he's he's he's saying, you know, don't show him

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Speaker 2: or you know, don't show him these photos, thinking that

294
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Speaker 2: Corey's only won't see him. But you know, going to

295
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,639
Speaker 2: what you had said earlier, you know, there's kind of

296
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,840
Speaker 2: disconnecting these these follow up visits that he was having.

297
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,440
Speaker 2: Dylan had already seen him, right, This child already had

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Speaker 2: these images, you know, in his mind.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I ask you, Joe, because you've covered

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00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,080
Speaker 3: this more. I thought I had covered it a lot

301
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Speaker 3: until I looked at what you've done with this case.

302
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Speaker 3: And I hate it for you because I've had nightmares

303
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,359
Speaker 3: about this one. But when I saw this, and again,

304
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,959
Speaker 3: my brother and I were he's two years older than

305
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,679
Speaker 3: I am, when my parents were going through a divorce.

306
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Speaker 3: And then it's not just the divorce, it's the things

307
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 3: that happened after the divorce. And that's what we're dealing

308
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Speaker 3: with here, is the aftermath. Even though mom and dad

309
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,399
Speaker 3: didn't seem to do a good job of keeping the

310
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Speaker 3: boys uninvolved in the divorce, they were very involved. They

311
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Speaker 3: knew everything that was going on. They're old enough to know,

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Speaker 3: I guess. But when I believe, based on what I

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Speaker 3: have seen, that Mark red Wine actually believed, Yes, Corey

314
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Speaker 3: has these, don't share them with your little brother. Don't

315
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Speaker 3: hurt him. Let's keep this between you and me and

316
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Speaker 3: we'll deal with it. He was trying to save face.

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Speaker 3: I thought all the while, he doesn't know that Dylan

318
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Speaker 3: has seen these pictures and actually wants to confront him

319
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Speaker 3: about them. But they had already been having a bad

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Speaker 3: time together, as you mentioned. So was do you think

321
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Speaker 3: that their relationship was so off kilter that Mark RedWine

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Speaker 3: the father didn't realize that Dylan red Wine not only

323
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,159
Speaker 3: saw the pictures but had formulated his own opinion and

324
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Speaker 3: that was what was causing the friction in the relationship.

325
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Speaker 3: Or was he so deluded as to think I can

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Speaker 3: turn Dylan to be back on my side in this

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Speaker 3: divorce and you know, we'll just fight it that way.

328
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Speaker 2: No. I think that at this point in Tom, you know,

329
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,680
Speaker 2: probably Mark RedWine realized that he had crossed the rubicon

330
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Speaker 2: with this, and I think that more than likely he's

331
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Speaker 2: trying to understand and figure out what he should do next.

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Speaker 2: I think that along with this comes this this level

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Speaker 2: of humiliation and concurrently anger, and he's going to strike out.

334
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,959
Speaker 2: Remember that, you know he had been texting you had

335
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,919
Speaker 2: mentioned the Boston going to Boston for baseball, that was

336
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,120
Speaker 2: back on August the fifth, twenty twelve. It's November the eighteenth.

337
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:44,240
Speaker 2: Remember you talked about Thanksgiving. It's November the eighteenth. He's

338
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,280
Speaker 2: had to make a trip to his dad. This is

339
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 2: Dylan by himself, and he arrives at his dad. The

340
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 2: last time he's known to be alive is November the eighteenth,

341
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Speaker 2: twenty twelve. So you've got all of this time August

342
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Speaker 2: to November for all of the stuff to bubble up,

343
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,200
Speaker 2: and who knows what's going on from a communication standpoint

344
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 2: during that period of time. Is communication becoming less frequent?

345
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,879
Speaker 2: Do you have you know, angry messages flying back and forth,

346
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 2: what's being set on the phone for one another? And

347
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 2: so all of this plays into trying to determine where

348
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 2: Dylan is at this point in time. You know, once

349
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: he goes missing on November the eighteenth, and he's under

350
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:35,680
Speaker 2: the care of his father, you know, the dad, Mark RedWine,

351
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 2: says he had left to go out and run errands,

352
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 2: and in fact, you know, when he got home he

353
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Speaker 2: said that, well, you know, Dylan wasn't there. He wasn't

354
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 2: he wasn't there, couldn't find him anywhere. And so that's

355
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 2: that's troubling. There was some activity on Dylan's phone. I

356
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 2: think probably the last phone activity was about nine pm

357
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 2: on November the eighteenth, and you know, who knows who

358
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 2: was actually using the phone at that point in time

359
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 2: to communicate with his friend. You know, Dylan was supposed

360
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 2: to go meet up with his buddy, and of course

361
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 2: that that never happened.

362
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Speaker 3: I would like to point out Cory RedWine is actually

363
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 3: several years older than Dylan. Cory red Wine actually was

364
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 3: twenty years old, give or take when when this was

365
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 3: going on.

366
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, he reached that age of emancipation where he if

367
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 2: he doesn't want to go to dad's house, he mightn't

368
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 2: have to go.

369
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: Well, I looked at it because I was wondering why,

370
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 3: you know, why is it? Because that that had always

371
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 3: troubled me, And I was like, wait a minute. He

372
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 3: was considerably older, and that's a that's a big That's

373
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 3: also why he was so confrontational with his dad. And

374
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 3: it also makes sense as to why Mark would address

375
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 3: him almost as as a peer, as an adult, saying,

376
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 3: don't hurt your little brother, but you know, seeing him

377
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 3: as much younger, not realizing that Dylan's the one that

378
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 3: found the photos to start with, and told Corey about them.

379
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 3: But now you've got the conference, the discussion where he's

380
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 3: we've got the text messages from Dylan to his friend

381
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 3: the evening before the next morning, Mark claims he goes

382
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 3: out to run errands and when he got home, Dylan

383
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 3: was gone. That's the scenario that he played out and

384
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 3: stayed with. This is where the world of forensics foggles

385
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 3: my mind, Joe, It really does, because I had no idea.

386
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 3: I had no idea of what you guys are capable

387
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 3: of figuring out, not just the next day, the next week,

388
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: the next month.

389
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 4: But months and months. I mean, what.

390
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 3: Can still be found out, what's left behind. There is

391
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 3: no perfect crime.

392
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 2: No, no, there's not. There is no perfect crime. You

393
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 2: can't do anything in a vacuum. And I, you know,

394
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 2: I always reflect back. I know of references before you

395
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 2: know where the in the Book of Genesis where you know,

396
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: you know, God calls out the cane and says, you know,

397
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 2: tells Caine, you know, your brother's blood cries out to

398
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 2: me from the ground. And in this particular case, you've

399
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: got Dylan's blood is actually found within the home and

400
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 2: it's not Later reports forensically indicate that it is it

401
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: is apparently not to the level or volume that would

402
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 2: necessarily be an event that is consistent with incompatibility with life.

403
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 2: You know, where you've just got a tremendous amount of

404
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 2: blood that's there that maybe there was an attempt to

405
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: clean up, but they found They found some on a

406
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: coffee table, they found some on on on on a sofa,

407
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: there was actually some beneath the carpet. And interestingly enough,

408
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 2: it was a dog that found the blood, you know,

409
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 2: with in the home, and dogs are so fascinating. You know,

410
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 2: you talk about us as forensic investigators, but you know

411
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 2: when you have an animal at your disposal that has

412
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: this incredible all factory I call it an all factory spectrum.

413
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: I know that people that are working.

414
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: Optimology will probably laugh about that, but that's what I

415
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: refer to it as it's a spectrum of smell that

416
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 2: they have that we we as humans can't even begin

417
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: to touch. And they are especially trained and on a

418
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: side that folks might not know. When I worked worked

419
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 2: with a medical examiner, we would have a lady that

420
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: would come by periodically and she would go back into

421
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 2: our decomp area and she had rags that she would

422
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 2: soak up decomp fluid out of the trays where the

423
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 2: body sat and seal them and then take take those

424
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: rags out into the woods and smear the trees with

425
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 2: decomp fluid to train her dogs with so that they

426
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 2: would know what decomposing human remnant smelt like. And so

427
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: these dogs are trained. You've got two separate groups of them.

428
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 2: You've got them that will track the living. Okay, you

429
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: think bloodhounds and those sorts of things, and then you

430
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: have couldaver dogs. And so what's considered to be a

431
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: cadaver dog, Well, postmortem, there has to be some level

432
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: of decay that's there, because it's on a different all

433
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: factory spectrum, if you will. And they hit on these things.

434
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: They can even pick up on the smell.

435
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: Blood actually has has a foul.

436
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 2: Odor in and of itself even as it decomposes, and

437
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: so they'll hit along that spectrum and they'll be able

438
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: to track. But just within the house alone, they found

439
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 2: Dylan's Dylan's blood. And here's the thing we're talking about.

440
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 2: This is not like this would have been necessarily old

441
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 2: old blood, because what did you say in the beginning day,

442
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 2: this man's house had burned, it had been renovated, so

443
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: this sample that would have been in there would have

444
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 2: been something that probably would have been placed down in

445
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 2: that area or would have been introduced into that environment

446
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: post renovation, post fire. So that narrows it down. Because

447
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: the fire, if I remember, took place like back in

448
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 2: March of twenty twelve, and Dylan goes missing November the twelfth,

449
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: and you're left, You're left wondering, well, why would you

450
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: have multiple spots of this child's blood in this home

451
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: that you know he does it. He's not domiciled there,

452
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 2: he doesn't live there all the time, so you know

453
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: you can explain it. I mean, I've had a spontaneous

454
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: bloody nose over the course of my life. Heck, I've

455
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 2: I've busted my head on different things, and you know,

456
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: had an open bleeding wound. Yet that does happen, and certainly,

457
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 2: you know, being a qualified former little boy, I know

458
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: that I have spouted blood any number of ways. But

459
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: you know it from an investigative standpoint, how do you

460
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 2: get past that? This is one of those moments in

461
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: time where you have to ask bigger questions. And one

462
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: of the things that we do know this little boy

463
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: was nowhere in that house. But something tells me the

464
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: dogs are going to play a.

465
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: Key role in discovering diligre Lane Dave.

466
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: I think if I ever do a podcast, maybe as

467
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 2: an adjunct to two Body Bags, where we just do

468
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: a little separate one, I think I might use the

469
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: title corpus DELECTI. I've always liked that term. It comes

470
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: from the Latin and it means the body of the crime,

471
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 2: but many times it is.

472
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: It is in fact the body.

473
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: And there's been a lot of people that have said,

474
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 2: you can't prosecute a homicide without a body. And I

475
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 2: think that for investigators in the Dylan RedWine case, they

476
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: were wondering if I think that they suspected something was up,

477
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 2: but they knew that they had to find this child's

478
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: body if they were ever going to move forward with

479
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: a case, and certainly moving forward with out a body

480
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: is a problem.

481
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: So Dylan goes missing November nineteenth, twenty twelve. They don't

482
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: find him. There was weather situations to deal with with

483
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 3: regard to being able to put out a search for him.

484
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: It wasn't until the following year in twenty thirteen when

485
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 3: and it was the femur, but it was both femurs, right, yes, yeah,

486
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: Now what are the odds of finding that, you know,

487
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 3: something so specific legbones? Yeah, without finding everything, it just

488
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: seems odd.

489
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of does to me too.

490
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 4: But that's what they found in twenty thirteen.

491
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was actually in June. So this is going

492
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: to be after everything is thought. Remember we're in a

493
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: higher elevation in Colorado. It's to say that that Colorado

494
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: winners of brutal is certainly an understatement. It's terrifying that weather,

495
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: you know, during those periods of time, right, and you

496
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: know when Dylan went missing, they were right on the

497
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: cusp of that moment in time. I think that they

498
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: had already had some snowfall when Dylan had missed, had

499
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: gone missing back in twelve. But moving forward, you know,

500
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: you have to get out beyond that period the thaw

501
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: before you're going to find anything. And what did occur

502
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: is that I think it was roughly ten miles away

503
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: from Mark Redwine's home that the left and the right

504
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 2: femurs are actually found.

505
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 3: So if you and never found on a road, Joey, Yeah,

506
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 3: that was odd. They found it eight miles from his

507
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: house eight miles from his house. They find the bones,

508
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: but they're on a road. Why would they find bones

509
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 3: on a road in June.

510
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so that to me, many times, if temperature drops, okay,

511
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: you'll have the body that will go into it won't

512
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: stop decomposing, but it will slow the decompositional process down

513
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: a bit, particularly if temperatures at a high elevation really

514
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 2: start to dip. And so they could have been deposited

515
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: off of the road some distance, say on an ATV trail,

516
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: And we do know that Mark or red Wine had

517
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: an ATV and they're deposited there and then once an animal,

518
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: once an animal begins to smell these these decomposing remains.

519
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: Remember they're actually found in June. There's nothing to say

520
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: that an animal would not have come by grabbed this

521
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: lower portion of the body. And it's not just the

522
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: lower portion the body. When they found the left and

523
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: the right femurs, they actually found the right clavical So

524
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: if you will touch, if you will, if you're listening

525
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: to my voice right now, it's your collarbone, and it's

526
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: your right collarbone. That's what they found of Dylan's. And

527
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: in addition to that, they found the tibia, which is

528
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: one of the lower leg bones.

529
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: There's two.

530
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: You have the tibia and the fibula that are in

531
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: the lower leg. Well, they found the right tibia, so

532
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: you've got two, and it's an odd combination in it, Dave,

533
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: You've got the left and the right femur, which are

534
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 2: the large robust bones in the legs. You've got the

535
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: right clavical which is the collarbone, and then you've got

536
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: this right tibia. So you know, as forensic forensic scientists,

537
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: you know, one of the things that you're thinking about

538
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: once this has been identified as human remains, you can't

539
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: necessarily say that it belongs to a specific person at

540
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: that point in time. But when you begin to examine

541
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: these and you're thinking, well, why do I only have

542
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: these items? Well, am I looking at a case where

543
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: we've got an animal that has torn a body apart?

544
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: Or do I have a case where another animal, a

545
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: human has torn a body apart and deposited the parts

546
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: in various areas, And so, you know, you begin to

547
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: think about this. If it's a human, then one of

548
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: the things that you're going to look for on the

549
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: surface of the bones are going to be tool marks

550
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: because that's how that's what we do. We've got opposable thumbs,

551
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: and we work with tools, and so if you're going

552
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: to take a part of human body, you're going to

553
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: need the tools.

554
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: To do that.

555
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: And it's very I don't know of any possible way

556
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 2: that you could dismember a human remain without utilizing some

557
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: kind of metal tool in order to do that. So

558
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: these bones would have to be carefully examined to you know,

559
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: kind of either rule that in or rule it out.

560
00:32:59,200 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: Now.

561
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: One thing they did is after they found the bones

562
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 3: in June of twenty thirteen, it took a couple of weeks,

563
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: but in August, about eight weeks after they find those bones,

564
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: they're able to search the house and the truck. That's

565
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 3: when they find they bring in the cadaver dogs. A

566
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 3: human cadaver dog is brought into Mark Redwine's home and

567
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 3: that's where the dogs were hitting on saying that there

568
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 3: had been the corpse of a deceased person had been present.

569
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 3: That's the actual the way they wrote it out. It

570
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: had been present in that home, also in the uh

571
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 3: the bed of his truck. And this was after they'd

572
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: found those bones. But they didn't find all of them,

573
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 3: and one comment Mark RedWine made to a friend of

574
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: his that really came back to haunt him before they

575
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 3: found anything. Mark RedWine made the comment, I guess they

576
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 3: were talking about, how do you charge anybody, you know,

577
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 3: if he was killed, if he you know, just I'm

578
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: trying to picture a conversation you would have with somebody

579
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 3: that would include the term blunt force trauma from a

580
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 3: dad talking about his son when he doesn't know what

581
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: has happened to his son. Why, for the life of me,

582
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 3: I can can't figure out Joe. That's just not a

583
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 3: term I would want to use about a loved one,

584
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: much less would even think about using.

585
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 4: But he did.

586
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 3: Mark RedWine talked about blunt force trauma and well, they

587
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 3: need to find his head. Talking about police in order

588
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: to determine that his son had been murdered by blunt

589
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 3: force trauma, Well, they'd need to find his head.

590
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: Yeah.

591
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: How is it that you're you're comfortable enough to make

592
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 2: that comment and it's so very specific, you know, you

593
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 2: can reformulate that to talk about well, you know, gee,

594
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: I hope they find my son's body and maybe there'll

595
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: be information can tained on it that'll let us know

596
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: what happened. Okay, that's that's kind of the sympathetic view.

597
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 2: But then you begin to look at this from the

598
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: perspective of, well, you're being very specific here, very specific,

599
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: because blunt force is something that we normally talk about

600
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: in the realm of forensics and specifically forensic pathology, and

601
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: it's it's so, it's so, it has such a fine

602
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 2: point on it, and not just fine point when you're

603
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: talking about method that is used, but also Dave, when

604
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 2: you begin to think about anatomical location, because he states,

605
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: you know that you'd have to find the skull and

606
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm sure, much to his chagrin, Dalan

607
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: skull was actually found, well, what turned out to be

608
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: Dylan skull. Hikers actually found the skull on November the third,

609
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, fifteen, and it took them all

610
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 2: the way to May the twenty fifth of twenty sixteen

611
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 2: to get the skull positively identified. At that point in time, why.

612
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 3: Would it take so long? But I do want to

613
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 3: add something to this too, Joe, Yeah, all right, they

614
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 3: made a note where his the first the partial remains

615
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 3: were found. In June twenty thirteen, they go and discover

616
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 3: the cadaver dogs hitting in the house and in the

617
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 3: truck bed, and then the hikers. Almost three years nearly,

618
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 3: I mean November third, twenty fifteen, is just about three

619
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 3: years after he goes missing. They find his skull and

620
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 3: it's now further away. It's two miles, it's about ten

621
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 3: miles from the house.

622
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 4: And the one thing.

623
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 3: That Mark RedWine had said out loud is he believed

624
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: wild animals had attacked and had drug him. And one

625
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 3: of the experts of wildlife expert actually determined that quote,

626
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 3: no animal known to be in the area would transport

627
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 3: a body up the mountain from mister Redwine's residence to

628
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 3: the first recovery site, or would transport the skull an

629
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 3: additional one point five miles through the terrain where the

630
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: skull was found. Yes, there's nony indictment.

631
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're they're not going to do that. And I

632
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 2: concur with with the with the expert in this case

633
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: and in my experience with where you have what are

634
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: referred to as a surface deposition of human remains, which

635
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: means these are non these are non buried remains, These

636
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: are these are remains that are left on top of

637
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 2: the ground. Now I'm not saying that at some point

638
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: in time the remains could not have been buried and

639
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: then kind of dug up.

640
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 4: But the surface deposition, yeah.

641
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 2: Surface deposition. And essentially what that means is that if

642
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: you think about Okay, I'll give you a good example,

643
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: think about Brian Laundry. Okay, they found him in the swamps. Well,

644
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 2: when Brian Laundry's remains were found out in the swamp,

645
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: his body was not buried. That's a surface deposition of

646
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 2: the body. In total. Now with with these remains, it's

647
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 2: over such a massive area. And David, it's not like

648
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 2: it's not like you know, here in the in the

649
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: Deep South, we're gonna walk down a dirt road together

650
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: carrying something in our hand and throw out one item

651
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 2: here and throw it another. You're talking about undulating, uneven

652
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: terrain that rises and falls at pitches. We can't even fathom,

653
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 2: particularly those of us that live that are flat landers,

654
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: that live in these in these areas around here, the

655
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 2: terrain varies so much most animals when they scavenge. And

656
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: this is one other thing before I forget it, I

657
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: wanted to mention when Dylan died or was turned up missing,

658
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: it was shortly after that that I think that Mark

659
00:38:55,080 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: RedWine had had, you know, put forth this idea that

660
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 2: perhaps a bear had gotten it. But the experts, and

661
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 2: this gives you an idea of the temperatures at this time.

662
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 2: The experts said that by the time that Dylan had

663
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: gone missing in November twelve, the bears would have gone

664
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: into hibernation by that time, so they're not out and about.

665
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 2: And you compare this to the Morphew case. What did

666
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: Barry Morphew say about his wife? Well, Mountain Lion.

667
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 4: Got mountainline guy.

668
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's only three. They're very territorial, and the

669
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: three in the area, and that one was nowhere near

670
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 3: where he was.

671
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

672
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 2: Isn't it interesting how people blame animals for these sorts

673
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: of things. And with most surface depositions of skeletal remains,

674
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: where you have bodies, let's just put it this way,

675
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 2: Where you have bodies that are you have bodies that

676
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: are intact, Okay, that means that nothing has been done

677
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: with them. As they decay on the ground, animals will

678
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 2: come and they'll generally start in areas that they can.

679
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: Get access to.

680
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 2: So if you've got a closed body, they're going to

681
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 2: go for the face. They're going to go for the fingers,

682
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: all right, and they start to pull, and as the

683
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 2: body begins to deteriorate, things are more easily pulled apart

684
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 2: till they begin to tear at the clothing. Now, some

685
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: of Dylan's clothing was found. There were remnant of clothing

686
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: out there, including I think shoes as well. But here

687
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: here's the thing. You're not going to have them spreading

688
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 2: remains over this vast, uneven terrain, and I think the

689
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: skull what was okay, So the lower remains this this

690
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: deposition of the femurs eight miles away, along with the

691
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: clavicle and the tibia. That's eight miles away. You've got

692
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: to go another mile and a half up, you know,

693
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: increasing in elevation where you're gonna find his head. It

694
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: just it, you know, as they say down here in

695
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: the South, that dog don't hunt, and so it's just

696
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: it's just one of those things that it just it

697
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 2: defies all logic. Animals are not going to drag if

698
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: they're in a particular area kind of scavenging. They're gonna

699
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 2: grab whatever they can grab. They're going to take it back.

700
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: And the smaller animals you know, you can forget about

701
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,959
Speaker 2: that because if you're talking about coyotes, these are not huge,

702
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: robust animals where they're gonna walk miles and miles and

703
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: it's not like the savannahs of Africa or a lion

704
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 2: or something. They're not gonna walk miles and miles and

705
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 2: miles with something that they're gonna they're gonna eat. They're

706
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: going to go very short distances, sit down, and they're

707
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: going to begin to ingest their food.

708
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: So if that is what happened, this makes no sense.

709
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 3: But what does make sense is you've got body parts,

710
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 3: you've got his remains found at eight miles away than

711
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 3: a mile and a half up the mountain, you find

712
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 3: his skull. But what did they find on the skull, Joe,

713
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 3: Because we remember Mark RedWine made the comment, well, they

714
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 3: can't do anything without finding, you know, without the head

715
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 3: because and he mentioned that's where the blunt force trauma

716
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 3: came in. By the way, still an unexplainable comment that

717
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 3: he made, and it has been brought up at court.

718
00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 4: It was brought up in each stage.

719
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 3: Of along this way, because who would say that other

720
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 3: than somebody guilty of doing such a thing. But what

721
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 3: did that skull tell investigators.

722
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: Well other you know, well baseline they were finally able

723
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: to get Dylan's remains identified off.

724
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 3: Of oh yeah, okay, back to that you said, Okay,

725
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 3: they found the skull in November, but it was May

726
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 3: of the next year before they could even identify it.

727
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the images that I've seen of the skull

728
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 2: seems like that it would make dental id very very

729
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: difficult on him. And by the time you're Dylan's age

730
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: in life, you will have had some type of dentistry performed.

731
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 2: And many people might not know this. I'm sure that

732
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: DNA came came into play in Dylan's case, But did

733
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 2: you know that there are certain cases where we're trying

734
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: to identify bodies if we don't have teeth. Well, actually,

735
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 2: forensic codentologists who look at the dental X rays, well,

736
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 2: we've I've been involved in cases where we use the

737
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: sinuses to identify people. So you can do a comparison

738
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: between sinuses of anti mortem X rays with post mortem.

739
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: X rays of the skull.

740
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: So if you've got you know, you've got sinuses throughout

741
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: your head. They're not just anterior, you have some posterior

742
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: as well. There are these little chambers in your body,

743
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 2: and they have certain patterns when you look at them

744
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 2: on radiographs X rays. You can actually compare antimortem with

745
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: post mortem images and you can get X rays. You

746
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: can use that as a starting point to get the

747
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: identification done, and then a forensic anthropologist will take the

748
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 2: skull and they'll begin to do measurements in a very

749
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: broad sense. So when you're a thirteen year old, your

750
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: skull has not fully matured at that point to the

751
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: same size that it's going to be when you're a

752
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: full grown adult. So there are certain measurements that forensic

753
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: anthropologists will make in order to determine does this individual

754
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: fit it within this demographic that we're looking for. We're

755
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: talking about thirteen year old white male. Does this skull

756
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: that we have even begin to marginally fit into that?

757
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: And so you begin to narrow down from there. But

758
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: further examination by the forensic anthropologies found found four items

759
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 2: that are of significance. First off, they found evidence of

760
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: these kind of what we refer to as curvelinear fractures

761
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: on the skull. And when I say curvelinear, it's a

762
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 2: fancy way of saying that You've got these fractures that

763
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 2: are kind of in a line, but they also slightly curve,

764
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 2: and that gives you an idea that and they're separate,

765
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: they're not communicating, which means that they do not touch

766
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: one another. Those are two specific areas of blunt force

767
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: trauma that Dylan would have sustained, and these were located

768
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 2: in the back of the head. The skull fractures do

769
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 2: not appear to be depressed skull fractures where the plug

770
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: of bone has been knocked down in there, but it's

771
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 2: enough potentially of a concussive four that it could kill him.

772
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 2: And here's the other thing that will send a chill

773
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 2: up your spine about this. Remember how we were going

774
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 2: on about how these remains were separated, Well, Dave, one

775
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 2: of the things that the forensic anthropologists found on Dylan's

776
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: skull were two tiny linear tool marks that are consistent

777
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: with a knife blade.

778
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: So what does that tell us?

779
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 2: Why would this child have knife blade marks on the

780
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: external table of his skull. Now, one of the defense

781
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: experts at Mark Redwine's trial actually put forth the idea, well,

782
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: that's probably from an animal. The teeth marks of an

783
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 2: animal look completely different than a milled edge of a blade.

784
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: And these things are very uniformed. You can tell that

785
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 2: this was generated by a tool. So the big question

786
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: you have to ask after Mark redwinelet was put to

787
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 2: shame as a result of what his boys had discovered.

788
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: After he thinks about it for some time about what

789
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: he's going to do, did he allow that colonel to

790
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,479
Speaker 2: be planted within his brain that drove him into such

791
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 2: a fit of rage that he would get his son

792
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: by himself on a Thanksgiving holiday, get him in that

793
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 2: house alone, beat him to death and destroy his mobile remains.

794
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this his body backs