1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. Ladies and gentlemen. This is 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: the meat Eater Podcast. We're gonna talk now about something 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: that is perhaps the least understood in my opinion, realm 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: of of of hunting and fishing in America, which is 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: hunting mountain lions. Um, something that I've never done successfully, 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: no thanks to the guy I'm sitting here with, Floyd 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: green Um. Before I get into that, I want to 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: remind everyone if you like, like, if you want to 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: watch watch the show meat Eater, not listen to the 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: meat Eater podcast, go to meat Eater dot VHX dot 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: tv and you can download it and stream it to 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: your heart's content. They sell them on their and like 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: these blocks of episodes, and if you go on there 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: and use the offer code meat Eater Podcast, you get 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: five bucks off any volume. And there's a lot. How 16 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: many volumes did you say around there yet? Six six volumes? 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: I think that's about off. I think they're around way 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: huge discount. So me eater dot VHX dot tv, offer 19 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: code me Eater podcast, And while you're at it, go 20 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: on to Yanni uhhaspitelus is joining us here. Go onto 21 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: Janice's thing website. Plug it, go buy some of yannice 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: Is Hunt to Eat t shirts. What's one of those 23 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: good T shirts cost? Y? We usually can get a 24 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: ship for just a couple of dollars. And if Yanni's 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: out of stock, like he always is, just keep checking 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: back because he'll buy two or three more and get 27 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: him in stock. Okay, I'm on the subject of hunt 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: mountain lions I have. I'm gonna give my personal mountain 29 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: lion resume. I've eaten three mountain lions, which is the 30 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: same number of mountain lions that I've seen in the wild, 31 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: though I haven't eaten any of the ones I've seen 32 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: in the while, they all separate ones. There's this place 33 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: outside of Missoula, Montana, called the Rock Creek Lodge, and 34 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: every year they have something called the Testicle Festival, where 35 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: they served There's this whole, big, very hedonistic festival around 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: serving deep fried nuts from castrated steers. They cast rated 37 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: steers in the spring with us in the fall. It 38 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: must be freezing them. I don't never. It seems like 39 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: you do it around the time, right, But one time 40 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: I was in there in the spring and there was 41 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: a pot of uh pulled pork on the counter and 42 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: they weren't selling. It was free, and I made myself 43 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: a sandwich and the guy told me that it was 44 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: mountain lion, and um, he said, rock Creek lodge, balls 45 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: in the fall, pussy in the spring. You know that 46 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: that was one of the three mountain lions I've eating 47 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: on another mountain lion I ate. My old girlfriend was 48 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: in line in the hardware store and Wyoming and the 49 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: guy in front of her was buying a mountain lion 50 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: tag and she said, what do you do with the 51 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: mountain lion? He said, I just wanted to hide. She said, 52 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: we'll take all the meat, and sure enough, this dude 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: called about a week later and gave us the whole 54 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: mountain lion and we ate that thing every which way. 55 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,239 Speaker 1: It's not bad now, it's pretty good. The backstraps on 56 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: there where it's at. Yeah, but it's all, you know, 57 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: kind of a white meat that surprising resembles pork without 58 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: the greasiness. You know, pretty good stuff. It'll test the 59 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: strength of your jaw often. So so I'm joining this 60 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: conversation buying a real, live, actual very serious um lion hunter. 61 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: Floyd green Um. Floyd owns like some things that that 62 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: you might be familiar with that that I like to 63 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: use and you see often around um wilderness athlete outdoorsmans. 64 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: But you've been a lion hunter longer than any of 65 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: that stuff. He always started to talk lines the first 66 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: time with some guys. And I was a teenage o 67 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: late teens, and I didn't have my own hound star. 68 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: I was around twenty. But you were you were born here. 69 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: We're we're in Arizona right now, uh, in Skysdale and 70 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: you were born here in Phoenix. And what was the 71 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: lion hunting culture then? Like, how did you get into it? Well? 72 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: I got into it actually up in show, Arizona, up 73 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: there building homes and the guys were headed out one 74 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: day and I just tagged along with them. And I've 75 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: always been always had a lot of dogs and been 76 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: around dogs my whole life. What was the reason you 77 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: had them? I didn't have any lion hunting dogs that 78 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: they were had one coonhound and one mutt. Uh. But 79 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: after spending time with those guys and watching them work 80 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: with their dogs, and you know, the first time you 81 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: see a lion climb a tree, or you walk up 82 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: to a tree and one is in it, it's just 83 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: the buggy that generally bites people that really enjoy that 84 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: and amazing on them to be up close to like that. 85 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: And it's a dog thing largely too. Absolutely, we can 86 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: get into that. Absolutely, that's if it wasn't for watching 87 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: the young dogs transform and all the planning that goes 88 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: behind putting your packet dogs together, breeding the next group 89 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: of puppies, you know, just seeing lions get killed. It's 90 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: certainly not why people hunt lions. So how how many 91 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: years ago was that you started hunting lions early eighties 92 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: somewhere right around and got your own dogs and that 93 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: was I had a lot, you know, I had my 94 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: own dogs within a year at that time, but they 95 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: wasn't a very successful group of dogs at that point 96 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: in my life. Just had a lot more dogs and 97 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: headline catching going on. What what one thing that Floyd 98 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: does like that? There's correct me if I'm wrong in this, 99 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: But basically you would divide lion hunting into two categories. 100 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: Talking him in the snow, right, is that fair? It is? Uh, 101 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, or hunting them in what there is no snow? Well, 102 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: hunting him in bare ground conditions is more challenging due 103 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: to the fact that you you rely on the dogs 104 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: a lot more so, it takes a lot higher level 105 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: of hound. Uh. You know, you're in the snow, you're 106 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: gonna drive the roads. Look for where alliance crossed in 107 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: the snow. You can determine, generally, determined to some degree, 108 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: how old that track is. Certainly can determine which way 109 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: it's going with the hounds. When you're riding along on 110 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: your muddle or some guys do it off of before wheeler. However, 111 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: you may be doing it and your dogs are free 112 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: casting out in front of you. There's literally dozens of 113 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: animals that they have the opportunity that they smell every 114 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: step of the way, they're smelling some different creature and 115 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: you're relying on them to let you know that they've 116 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: they've crossed the lion's path and you may go. You 117 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: may go days before that happens in a lot of cases. 118 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: My brother, my older half brother, was an elk guide 119 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: in Colorado for many years and he did some lion 120 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: He had a guy, one of his guides was a 121 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: lion and hunter and they would just you know, have 122 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: clients he wanted to come out and he would have 123 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: a list of guys and he wouldn't call the client 124 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: until he found the track, and guys would because he 125 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: would have some guys like you gotta be ready to 126 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: go at the drop the hat and he'd called and 127 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: got and like get on a plane and come up 128 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: from Dallas or whatever. And then they begin to hunt them. 129 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: And then you go chase that line. And I don't 130 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: you know, in some parts of the country there's just uh, 131 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: nobody even thinks about lion hunting until the snowfalls. And 132 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: part of that, you know, now with the wolves like 133 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: they are right, you know, they can really determine whether 134 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: there's wolves in the area or not. Also before they 135 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: turn there, because the wolves to kill your dog. You know, 136 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: the Canadian wolves are just a dangerous you know, they're 137 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: they're always a threat to the guys with hounds up there. 138 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: And I don't know much about hunting in in the 139 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: northern part of our country, but what I see of it, it's, uh, 140 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, snow hunting can be very very challenging, and 141 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: it can be really really tough physically. Some of the 142 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: toughest hunts I've ever been on have been in the snow, 143 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: just climbing around on snowy hillsides you know, go fifteen 144 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: miles and two ft of snow and in and out 145 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: of the Grand Canyon a couple of times, and you 146 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: know you have It's just a tough, tough hunt on everybody. 147 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: But what what what the snow gives you? Though? So 148 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: when you when you go out and loot for a line, 149 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: Let's let's just set this up first, so so people 150 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: get tome about when you got a loot for line, 151 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: how old does the track have to be? Like, what's 152 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: the oldest track you can run? Most? You know, that's 153 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: a highly controversial subject. I would say nobody's gonna catch. 154 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: You're gonna catch very few lines that are over six 155 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: to eight hours. Your six eight hours behind them. Okay, 156 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: So step one of a lion hunt, just for listeners, 157 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: like step one of the lion hunt, would be that 158 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: you're going into likely lion country or a place a 159 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: lion is likely to pass through, and you're trying to 160 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: find either through the nose of your dog or from 161 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 1: tracks in the snow or tracks on the ground. You're 162 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: trying to find a place for a mountain line came 163 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: through walk through within the last six eight hours. Ideally, 164 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: I don't mean the harder on the snow thing too much. 165 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: But it's just like it's just an interesting way to 166 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: start thinking about some of the complexities and hunt lines. 167 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: Because if there's snow on the ground, you know how 168 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: big the lion was, right generally the speech or the gender, 169 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: so you can tell that even right and the best 170 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: you know what way it went. Absolutely we experienced that. 171 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: It's you know, knowing you're going the right way is 172 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: the battle. Yeah, because the dog, like like a famous 173 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: thing people want to say about, like a good beagle 174 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: is a bagle can zing back and forth on a 175 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: rabbit track a couple of times and he can tell 176 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: relative freshness just on a short stretch, and he'll know 177 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: what way the rabbit went. But with the line that's 178 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: not it takes them a little while longer to figure 179 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: it out. Well, sometimes they the tendencies of the dog. Well, 180 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: the rabbits are hot a hot scent track type track, 181 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: whereas a lion I would consider a cold or you 182 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: mean hot, like the rabbit just jumped out, this was there, 183 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: So it's much more obvious to that that beagle which 184 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: way that tracks going because it's dissipating and with a 185 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 1: lion that track maybe laying there. You know, a lion 186 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: when it walks, it's it's you know, it's off floating 187 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: cells or spores, whatever you want to call them. That 188 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: that that's what the dog is detecting. And for whatever reason, 189 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: a lion leaves a scent longer than most animals. And it's, uh, 190 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: it's it's different in the sense that like with coon dogs. 191 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: You know, coon dogs are the same thing as the 192 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: beagles do on rabbits, and they almost generally figure out 193 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: which way that coon's going and go the right way. 194 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: Lion hellms, there's I if I can't help them, then 195 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: I let them make the decision. I don't ever try 196 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: and outguess them. But I'm sure gone the wrong way 197 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: a lot of times. How far? Why you go the 198 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: wrong way until the dog has become exhausted or the 199 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: track burns out there and I've gone in. Well, Chris, 200 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: but the day we caught your line, this is a 201 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: line that's caught Floyd Sogen to Chris Denham here, who 202 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: hosts um Western Hunter TV show and is UH publisher publisher. 203 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: It's a good polisher of Western Hunter, Elknor Magazines and 204 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: Chris Unfairbedy line Hunting with Floyd that Yeah, we we 205 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: took a large mail down in the Catalina Mountains and 206 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: after the lion was shot, Chris had shock the line. 207 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: One of our our better dogs turned around and trailed 208 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: that track, the one that was now dead backwards till 209 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: six o'clock that evening and probably went twelve miles from 210 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: where we started in Bank trailing the line, you know, 211 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: I mean, there was no question about what went on, 212 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: you know, And we ended up catching up with her 213 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: in Canada del Oral almost to the bottom. Shot him 214 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: at it was April fifteenth, to remember his taxing. We 215 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: shot him, it was it was it's a crazy, crazy story, 216 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: but it shot him with an hour of daylight and 217 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: we were we got to the bottom of Kennon to 218 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: Laura and finally found that that dog at dark and 219 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: came pretty much out in the dark. It was fourteen 220 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: hours probably that dog was trailing back on that on 221 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: that lion. Yeah, when we went out those a couple 222 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: of times and looking even when the dogs start running something, 223 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: we were still spending a lot of time trying to 224 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: find a track to verify what it was that they 225 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: were after. Right, you know, a lot of these dogs, 226 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: all of my dogs now, line numbers have dropped in 227 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: the last five years, and all of my dogs have 228 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: gotten the trailing bobcats and they never used to do that. 229 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: So now we have to determine is it a bobcat 230 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: or is it a lion? You know, And and it's 231 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: really hard to tell. Why did you dogs start running bobcats? Well, 232 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: you just it's basically you would consider that a fault 233 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: and a dog in a true bear ground lion him. 234 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: But almost all of them will at one time or 235 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: another trail bobcats and foxes because you don't come across 236 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: enough line tracks to keep them. You know, they're gonna 237 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: they're gonna trail something, you know, And and it's very 238 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: hard to tell the difference between the two unless you've 239 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: got the soil or you find some way to find 240 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: a track as foxes and bobcats wherever where lions are 241 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: here in Arizona. Well that's that's always been something of 242 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: a problem. But the good news is typically fox and 243 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: bobcat tracks very similar to a coon or a rabbit 244 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: that the track dissipates quickly, so typically is gonna run 245 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 1: in the right direction right and typically if they don't 246 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: go anywhere that's a good sign. That's probably not a 247 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: line if you start moving it out as you're saying, 248 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: it's not gonna like, he's not gonna They're not gonna 249 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: run an eight hour old track very long, right, Well, 250 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: they won't run an eight hour old Bobcat track or 251 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: fox track. They won't. It's gonna be fresh to get 252 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: in within probably thirty minutes or now that. Okay, what 253 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: um between all the hunting you've done, like just hunting 254 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: lines of people and all the stuff you've done with biologists, 255 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: treating them for research purposes and tranquilizing the one, not 256 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: how many lines have you run? Run? How many lions 257 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: are you caught? Like like lion guys use the word 258 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: caught for a lion, whether you kill the line or not, 259 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: because the whole thing is catching it. Right after that, 260 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: it's you know, shooting him kind of an anti climatic 261 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: end to the chase. The uh. As far as lions 262 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: have caught, it's between three and five hundred, you know, 263 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: it's always hard to put a number on that. For me, 264 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: a lot of them were caught with other hunters there 265 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: in a different situation, you know, circumstances and things like that. 266 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: Some of them were lions that were caught multiple times 267 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: and turned loose. You know, it's always challenging to figure 268 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: out how to keep score. But there's been times in 269 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: my life where we've caused many as twenty five lions 270 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: a year for you know, several years in a row, 271 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: and there's other years you catch you know, my goal 272 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: is always to catch ten a year, but there's been 273 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: a few years we haven't got that done. Yeah, so 274 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: maybe when you think about doing it for thirty years, 275 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: that adds up pretty substantial number. As far as the 276 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: lions that I've trailed, you'd be you know, thousands. How 277 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: many dogs you take out to hunt a lion, I 278 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: take as many as thirteen at one time. I would 279 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: prefer to take a half a dozen. That's an optimum number, 280 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: four to six. And I've caught a lot of lions 281 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: with one dog, you know, you just it's uh. But 282 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: typically for a good, good fun hunt, the number I 283 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: would pick would be five or six. But a lot 284 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: of times we'll take all thirteen of them just to 285 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: help keep them in shape, oh, just exercise them, yea. 286 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: So much about catching a lion has as much to 287 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: do with the physical ability of the hound to persevere 288 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: through a whole day of day of trailing and then 289 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: jump the lion and actually put enough pressure on it 290 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: to get it to climb a tree. So if they're 291 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: not in good physical shape and their feet aren't tough 292 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: and they can't go and they they got to be 293 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: able to go ten twelve hours. So layout for me 294 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: like how a lion hunt. Layout me like how a 295 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: successful lion hunt goes. You get them the morning and 296 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: like what I know each time is different, but it's like, 297 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: how might a hunt go well? Chris is yours is 298 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: a classic, the one we were just talking about. We 299 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: got up in the morning and uh, saddle the mules 300 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: and and wrote out rode up the very first. You 301 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: prefer to hunt out on a mule, Yeah, that'd be 302 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: my preference by far. So you're you're mounted dogs running 303 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: all around, and I can stay with my dogs a 304 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: lot better. Is as good as shape as you feel 305 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: like you are. It's hard after a few days to 306 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: physically stay with him on foot on regular basis. We 307 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: cover ay enormous amount of ground. I felt I felt 308 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: when I was out with you. I never hunted with 309 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: a group of guys that was physically in the in 310 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: the shape that you guys were when we went. Joe 311 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: and I were both absolutely amazed every night when we 312 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: came in and and all the guys running the cameras 313 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: I mean and running them backwards up the hills and 314 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: in super tough country. It was amazing. And normally guys 315 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: just don't show up and that kind of physical cond issue. Uh. 316 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: And we did go a long ways, you know. There 317 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: was a couple of times we trailed lines that I 318 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: was sure we had the one cot and uh, and 319 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: we didn't. But that would have been even That's a typical, 320 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: although Joe started that one early. For us, it was 321 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: the distance wasn't unusual. You know, do their collars like 322 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: the GPS. Their GPS is to keep a track of 323 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: the distance they run. These dogs look like satellites. Man, 324 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: they got like three collars on wires and stuff. Come. 325 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: It was an average day that the dog puts on, 326 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: well the dog's a minimum of the average days twenty miles, 327 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: so you know, and I've seen thirty five mile days. 328 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: You know, that's not not not a crazy deal either. 329 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: But what gets tough is that's not hard for a 330 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: good condition. HOWND to do on any given day, it's 331 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: hard for that dog to do day after day after day. 332 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: And that's where you see professional lion hunters, guys that 333 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: are guiding full time, or some of our government lion hunters. 334 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: That gets to be the difference between them and sport 335 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: hunters is the condition of their dogs. Quality of the dogs, obviously, 336 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: but the condition is huge where they can pursue a line. 337 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: They may trail a lion for three days before they 338 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: overtake it and actually jump it. And I'm not saying 339 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: they're stopping the track and picking it up each day, 340 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: but every day you learn more about that animal and 341 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: you're you're getting closer to it, You're getting into a 342 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: tighter area where it may be. Well in that third day, 343 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: if you've been running like you're saying, three days in 344 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: a row, you might pick up where that lion was 345 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: the night before. Absolutely as he's daunting an area. Well, 346 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: you won't pick up the exact spot, but you know 347 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: the lions travel into the south. We've trailed him four 348 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: miles in that direction, down this drainage. We'll try and 349 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: loop ahead of him and pick him up again. And 350 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: typically with good broke dogs, when you when you cross 351 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: this track there, you know, they'll let you know and 352 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: verify the direction and go again. Sooner or later, that 353 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: lion is gonna kill something, or he's gonna lay up somewhere, 354 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: and that's when you'll overtake him once he gets a 355 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: belly full, or he was that because he's stopping to 356 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: eat because he's just hungry, because he's full and doesn't 357 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: run is good, No, well, it's because he stopped trappling. Okay, 358 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, he just finally because you know then he's 359 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: camped out on the carcass and he's there. And so 360 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: I think this is an important point because I think 361 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: I was like under the wrong impression too, because I 362 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: always everybody or in my head, it's like you start 363 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: out and it's like as soon as you're on the track, 364 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: you're like, dogs are chasing this lion. But it's not 365 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 1: that way. This lion is just out and about doing 366 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: this thing for maybe three or four days, and eventually 367 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: your hounds is catch up to it. For those dogs 368 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: never got close, and it seems so exciting because those 369 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: hounds are so excited and they're balling and carrying on 370 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: that you feel like you're the lions up and running 371 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: from it. But that cat might not even know about 372 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: you and your dogs. That's a more more often than 373 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: not when you're trailing a line. There was only one 374 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: instance that I thought maybe we had a line jumped, 375 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: and that was that large tom in the galeras that 376 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: and I believe he out ran So I think that 377 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: lion left the country. Um, But almost every other line 378 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: we those lions probably never knew we were even in 379 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: the vicinity. I think I think my line was a classic. 380 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: As we were writing, it was the third day, and 381 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: we had done the same loop the first two days, 382 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: you know, probably a fifteen eighteen mile loop, you know, 383 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: just country, yeah, just and working the same you know, 384 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: the same trails and just kind of working out old tracks. 385 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: And the third day we left camp and we weren't 386 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: what a mile from camp, and all of a sudden 387 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: the dogs struck, I mean and you know, and and 388 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: struck hard. And we've been through that exact canyon the 389 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: two days previous. We knew that lion track wasn't there 390 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: two days before, so we knew, you know, this is fresh, 391 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: so knew the line had walked. You were sleeping in 392 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: the lion passed through a mile from where you were sleeping. 393 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: So then what happened on that hunt? Oh he got 394 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: it got pretty crazy after that. But uh uh we 395 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: were right in the bottom of a canyon in uh 396 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: the dogs trying that they were going back and forth 397 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: and we find to find a scratch and figure it out. 398 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: Then the scratch was saying the lion was going up 399 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: the canyon back up, and explain what you mean by that. 400 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: With the lions will scratch, you can explain a little more, 401 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: but it was with a scratches. But where they where 402 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: they they're marking their territory as at Tom's and they 403 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: use their front feet and they pull it. They pulled 404 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: it the soil up over top of where they've urinated 405 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: and and they create a it's just a pile of 406 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: of leaf litter or whatever. It's in the bottom of 407 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: that little canyon and you can see it from a 408 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: good distance. It shows you, like what maybe six ten 409 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: inches long. They can likely little places like you can anticipate, 410 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: like when we were out, we kept looking at it 411 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: after id be like that's the place where he would 412 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, you know, like we're too too. You're 413 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: in the canyon and a tributary comes in it was 414 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: like a leafy area or something, you know. Yeah, and 415 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: so we knew this, We figured the lines. We know 416 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: that from the direction of the scratch, he's probably going 417 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: up the canyon. But the dogs keep trying to they 418 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: go up, and then they turn around. They want to 419 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: come back, they want to keep wanting to come back. 420 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: And finally one dog went tried went up and around 421 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: us to get around us because we're trying to pull 422 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: the dogs and push him the other direction. And then 423 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: all of a sudden he struck. And we figured out 424 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: afterwards that we probably literally jumped that lion out of 425 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: that canyon and and he went he's scratched, and then 426 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: went right up and over the top, and uh some 427 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: as we got up over the top, and uh, do 428 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: you want me tell the whole story? Yeah, okay, it's 429 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: it's a pretty good story. This is explaining how Yeah, 430 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: so keeping mind the miles, keeping mind miles through so 431 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: people get a perspective of like the scale. Okay, this 432 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: one actually happened pretty you know, pretty quick, in a 433 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: short amount of time. But so that we know the 434 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: line went up and over top this ridge maybe a 435 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: three foot elevation half mile over the top, and we 436 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: got up to the top and and we can hear 437 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 1: the dogs barking down to the bottom just but it's 438 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: kind of crazy barking. And uh, Floyd split off to 439 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: get a bit a little bit of a different angle, 440 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: and I stayed with the mules, and and Floyd calls me. 441 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: You can hear the dogs barking down there. And Floyd 442 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: calls me in the radio and says, Chris, this lion 443 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: is coming right to you. Get off, you know. So 444 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: I jump off my mule, and I get my pistol out, 445 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: and I'm standing there like, you know, with my pistol 446 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: out in front of me, just waiting for a line 447 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: to come up. Anyways, another dog came up there and 448 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, that lion took off and 449 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: went back down and back into the other hounds. And 450 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: you can see this happen. No Floyd can see this happening. 451 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: I can't see this. So he bails down to where 452 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: the where the dogs are, and uh, and I'm just 453 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: kind of standing up on top of the mules, just 454 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: trying to just waiting for, you know, for Floyd tell 455 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: me what he is going on. And all of a sudden, 456 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: I just hear this voice down on the bottom of 457 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: the canyon, and it would be we go from R 458 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: rated X rated if I actually told you everything. He 459 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: was yelling at me, But it was like, Chris, get 460 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: your ass down here. I can just hear him just 461 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: yelling at me. And I got a radio in my 462 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: hand in the in the perfect Chris, Just for everybody listening, 463 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: that this line very unusual. It is gone by about 464 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: fifty trees that it could have gone in, from oak 465 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: trees to juniper trees. And it's fighting the dogs on 466 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: the ground, which is really unusual for Mountain one. And 467 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: it's fighting him like a jaguar or a bear would fight, 468 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: and it's winning. I mean, it's mucking him out. And 469 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: oh it was. I mean it we stapled and stitched 470 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: dogs for hours after this, this whole prog. But Floyd's 471 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: getting to see this, I was. I was panting Chris 472 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: to hurry down there. Yeah. So he's seeing all He's 473 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: seeing all this, and I'm just timeing to like trying 474 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: to piece it all together in my head. So I 475 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: go bailing off the ridge, you know, down to where 476 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: all the screaming is coming from, and uh, I've got 477 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: shaps on there's too long for me. I was stumbling 478 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: and falling and and and get there and there's a 479 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: big oak tree in the very bottom below me, and 480 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: there's a bluff I'm standing on top of, and and 481 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: right underneath the oak tree, I can see just a 482 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: muck of dogs and Floyd screaming and the lions screaming 483 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: and and on the ground on the ground. I mean, 484 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: they're they're perfect, yeah, perfectly under a huge bit perfect tree. 485 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: So I really I kind of jump off that little 486 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: bluff through the tree and I land on the ground 487 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: and uh, and I get there and there's a washout 488 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: underneath the tree, and that washouts filled up with oak leaves. 489 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: And also I can see as Floyd with a big 490 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: stick in his hand in the bottom of this washed 491 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: out oak leaf like pool, and uh, they're the lion. 492 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: Floyd's got this big, huge stick in his hand and 493 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,479 Speaker 1: one end as the lions hanging on to one end, 494 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: and there's dogs just jumping in. This lion's just got 495 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: paws going everywhere, claws going everywhere, and with a stick 496 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: in his mouth, you know's yelling at me, shooting, shooting. 497 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: So I go sliding into the hole and I grab. 498 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: I have my pistol in my hand, and I'm I'm 499 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: literally from me your foot, like three ft from the lion, 500 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: and dogs are jumping in there, and I'm trying to 501 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: grab dogs to to get a clear shot. And Floyd, meanwhile, 502 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: I was covering his face because he knows the bullet's 503 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: gonna create some kind of splash. We're also close. He's 504 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, meanwhile, the stick's broken off between his hands 505 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: and now he's down to two hands, hanging onto the 506 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: stick like a fishing rod with a big you know, 507 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: the sailfish on the end. And I shoot the lion 508 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: through the shoulder and from you know, from three feet, 509 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: there's no way I missed. And Floyd picks the cover, 510 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: uncovers his eyes and he looks at the lion. He 511 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: looks at me and the lions still doing the same 512 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: thing he was doing before I shot him. So he 513 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: yells at me shoot him again. So I shoot him again, 514 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: and then then then then finally the lights go out 515 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: and on the lion he's just dead, and you know, 516 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: the dogs are piling in there, and I mean, it 517 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: was just utter, complete chaos. But what had happened is 518 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: they with those oak leaves in that pool. Nobody could 519 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: get any traction to get out of there. And I'll 520 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: tell you, you you tell what happened to your pistol. Well, 521 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: I was I mean, Chris, Chris, Chris, one to shoot 522 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: the lion. I didn't one shouldn't use my tag. But 523 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: when I looked down in there, it was just all 524 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: the dogs were they were getting killed. I mean they were. 525 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: This lion was grabbing one. It wasn't that there hadn't 526 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: been a group of those dogs there that he would 527 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: have surely killed numerous dogs. And and he was big. 528 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: It was one of the few hundred and sixty pound 529 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: of lions that I caught in my life with. And 530 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: I mean it was a big, big male that just 531 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: didn't have any fear of us or the hounds or 532 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: anything else. Anyhow, when I slid down in there, I 533 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: had my pistol in my hand and just you know, 534 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: you're slide and I jammed it into the dirt and 535 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: I just didn't want to, you know, I didn't know 536 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: if it was full of dirt or not. And I 537 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: had that stick with me. Typically when lions are wounded, 538 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: they'll bite down on a stick like that. I never 539 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: really had to deal with one that had not wasn't 540 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: wounded before, but it did the same thing, and Chris 541 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: got there about the same time that bit down on 542 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: the stick. But that's what I was using to beat 543 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: the dogs, and it back trying to get them separated, 544 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 1: and that's how the stick got in its mouth. So 545 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: you lose a lot of dogs two lions, no, uh 546 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: if you typically lose them to the bluffs, you know, 547 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 1: and fallen off of things more than lions. Uh. This 548 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: last year we had a dog or lion another lions 549 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: similar to Chris's that that you know, busted the skull 550 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: on one dog's head and had another one in his skull, 551 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: you know, his the hound's head in its mouth, and 552 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: I shot it, but you know it would have killed 553 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: some dogs. But we you know, definitely lost maybe four 554 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,479 Speaker 1: or five over thirty years directly to a lion like that. 555 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: I think, I think this is you that I asked 556 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: this one time. I was asking you if if you 557 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: ever have any problem, like when you bringing in dogs 558 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 1: have been tore up by lions, if the vets ever 559 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: frown on you, And I think you told me you 560 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: went and found a vet who likes to hunt lions well, 561 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: there's we we have a he's retired now, but we 562 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: have a local beat here in the town that that 563 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: and there's a couple of them that that are that 564 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: are lion hunters, and there they understand about it. And 565 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: even the you know, the clinic we use now, I would, 566 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, there's certainly not what I would consider hunting 567 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: oriented or anything like that, and are always there for us. 568 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: But there are a lot of people that frown on it, 569 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: you know. I remember one time I went into an 570 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: emergency clinic with one of my hounds and it would 571 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: it had had a gastric torsion where its stomach had turned. 572 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: It was a great dog, and I was really worried 573 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: about losing it. And this pudgy little veterinarian told me 574 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: that the dog she did obviously didn't believe in hunting. 575 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: And she told me she was going to turn me 576 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: into the Humane Society of the Sheriff's Department from mistreatment 577 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: of animals. And because my dog was was in such 578 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: poor shape physically, and she was probably fifty pounds overweight, 579 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: and I pointed out to her that you didn't see 580 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: any fat people winning the Olympics either, and uh, and 581 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: of course that didn't help our relationship. Uh they did 582 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: save the dog. But yeah, once in a while you 583 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: get into those clinics and run into that. There's a 584 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: lot of people that disapprove a lion, you know, hunting 585 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: with hounds, and they think that it's unfair to hunt lions. 586 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: It's like one of the lion hunts. One of the 587 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: things that when anti hunting groups anti hunting money, Humane 588 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: Society love the money comes from other organizations. When they 589 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: look at what they can go after, that's one of 590 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: the things they go after. Like you'll like, I remember 591 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: reading this thing where it was a series of polls 592 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: on acceptance of hunting. I remember reading one in Arizona 593 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: or if you just ask people, do you support you know, 594 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: a person's right to hunt? Okay? And it was surprising 595 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: to me. I can't remember exactly, but it was somewhere 596 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: on lines of like you know, like seventy four sevent 597 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: of people supported it. But anytime you ask them a 598 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: specific thing, the acceptance rate would go down. So people 599 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: like the idea, but you say, like, okay, how about 600 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, hunting like bow hunting much less Okay, any 601 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: no matter what secific inquiry you put to them. It 602 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: was always like less people approved of the specific and 603 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: to the concept. And when you want to go after something, 604 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: you you can make the case pretty easy. And you've 605 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: done it effectively in several states. Now you can make 606 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: the case pretty easily that it's real bad to hunt 607 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: lions with dogs. Absolutely, we've lost it in Washington, California, Oregon. 608 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: I don't understand why, Like I guess I kind of 609 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: get what they're thinking, but I think that they're thinking 610 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: that the dogs they're doing all the work, or I 611 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: don't like, what is the Have you ever gotten a 612 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,239 Speaker 1: sense and you're well, it's you know, I always kind 613 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: of it's it's always tough for me to approach those people. Whatever. 614 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: People have a strong opinion about something that they have 615 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: no knowledge about. You got it almost assume that you're 616 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: dealing with an idiot. Yeah, So at that point the 617 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: discussion for me becomes hard to engage. And I'll sit 618 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: down with some people and talk to him about it. 619 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: But the one thing I always tell people is, you 620 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: know in my life that you know, I learned to 621 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: fly helicopter in thirty days. You can run multiple businesses. 622 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: Everything is relatively easy compared to getting up in the 623 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: morning and saying I'm gonna go catch the outline today. 624 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: So it's really insulting when somebody says it's not sportsmanlike 625 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: or it's it's unfair because they have no it just 626 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: haven't got a clue. You know, when you look at 627 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: that and you think about that being put to a 628 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: ballot or an initiative. I can make the case your 629 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: lions are very probably the most noble creature in the woods, 630 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: probably certainly one of the most beautiful, and when people 631 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: look at that, they say, how could you go kill 632 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: that animal? You know, in in wildlife management, all animals 633 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: have to be managed. There's not you don't get to 634 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: pick and choose which ones you do or don't manage. 635 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: So I I get really, you know, I I understand 636 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: how they make the case. I can probably do a 637 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: lot better job than they do. But it's mostly they 638 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: don't understand how sporting it is. That's you know, it 639 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: used to be the sport of kings chasing the hounds. 640 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: It was chasing boxes in England. Yeah, a thing that 641 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: I find works for people. It's like it's helpful when 642 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: you're like sort of conceptualizing what kind of hunting is 643 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: acceptable or not acceptable, or likely to be shot down 644 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: in a public battlet or not. Um, I'm stumbling around us. 645 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: But but there's like a sort of a thing like 646 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: a traditional use. Okay, so in areas where people have 647 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: traditionally haunted lions with dogs, I would tend to think 648 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: and I think most people agree that you would continue 649 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: doing what was traditional. So if you had an area 650 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: like there's states where you've never been able to bait, 651 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: to set out bait for black bears, Okay, you can't 652 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: bait black bears Montana, for instance, It's been like that 653 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: for a long time. Now. I'm not like uh pressing, 654 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not encouraging someone to legalize baiting bears 655 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: in Montana because the way it was set, it was 656 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: set from a wildlife management issue. It was set from 657 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 1: a traditional used issue. And they have a system that works, 658 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: you know. But it's like when you start taking away 659 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: traditional use practices, that's more upsetting me, and that like 660 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: makes me more suspicious than preventing new practices from entering 661 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: the realm. That makes sense, And I think I think 662 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: it's something that like comes up all time, like when 663 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: when guys down South, like for me, Like I grew 664 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: up in the Upper Midwest, no one hunts deer with dogs. 665 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: If you went and said we're gonna start a new 666 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: rule you can hunt near with dogs, people particularly deer hunters, 667 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: would be up in arms. Okay, they'd be like burning 668 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: buildings down over this. Meanwhile, you hunt deer with dogs 669 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: in the southeast many states. It's just what they've done, 670 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, And you have to kind of respect traditional 671 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: use practices, I think. And the thing with lions is 672 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: because the way lions behave when they're active, how they travel, 673 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 1: you just you can kill them with predator calls kind 674 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: of now and then a guy will run into one 675 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 1: and shoot it. But it's like you hunt lions with dogs. 676 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: To stop dog hunting for lions, you're basically saying you 677 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: can't hunt lions, correct, basically, And I know, like in 678 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,399 Speaker 1: South Dakota that guys call them in a little bit. 679 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: You know. Well, we just got the data back for 680 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: our two thousand fourteen harvests here, and I believe there 681 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: was two hundred and these are round numbers, but tw 682 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: hundred and seventy lions harvested, and at least two hundred 683 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: and thirty of those were with the eight at hounds, 684 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: you know, and and uh, I say to thirty, maybe 685 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: it's just somewhere in there. But basically, you when you 686 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: remove how hunting from the scope of wildlife management, lion 687 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: hunting lions with hounds from the scope of wildlife management, 688 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: you've effectively removed your ability to manage lions, whether it's 689 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: to benefit a sheep or deer or any other pray species. 690 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: So now California is a great example. Go to California 691 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: and try and find a deer. Yeah, they thought they 692 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 1: had a lion hunting problem, not only had a line problem. 693 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: And and right now we're seeing a decline in the 694 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: line numbers in the Western states, at least in the 695 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: states I'm familiar with, which which are Utah, Nevada, New Mexico, 696 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: and Arizona. Line numbers are far lower now than they 697 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: were five years ago. And we've got you know, i'd 698 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: hate to guess, I'd say that there's a third a 699 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 1: half the lions that we had five to ten years ago. 700 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: But it really doesn't have him to do with hunting pressure. 701 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,919 Speaker 1: It has more to do with a cyclic following prey 702 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: basis and and everything cycles and all wildlife animal species do, 703 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: but they're definitely down now. It's one of the things 704 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: we've encountered, Like we were on that that's weird because 705 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: they're having like an like outside of this area they're 706 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: having they're experiencing an expansion of range, like expanding, expanding 707 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: in the more urban areas, expanding in the states that 708 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: you have traditionally not had them. And I would question 709 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: too whether those states have or haven't had them. I 710 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: mean they have everywhere has had them well, but has 711 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: been of trail cameras has given us a lot more documentation. 712 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: You know, there's always been claims of lions in Maine, 713 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: and everybody thought, you know, somebody was just seeing things. 714 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: But now with trail cameras, you know, it's obviously more 715 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: much more documented situation. And and they are and I 716 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: do believe they are expanding the range and very dynamic, 717 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: very healthy population of lions the United States. And that 718 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: expansion is a lot less if you take out young males. 719 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: Like if you're in the drawing map of where females 720 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,439 Speaker 1: are showing up, that map is not nearly as big 721 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 1: as where males are showing up. So a lot of 722 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: times when you find these when these lines are coming 723 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: out of the eastern US, and people used to say, like, oh, 724 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: it's a runaway pat like there's a hell a lot 725 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: of people of mountain lions. But now they're fine. You know, 726 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: these are like these male mountainlins. They're traveling several states, 727 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: over coming out of the Black Hills, you know, turning 728 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: up in crazy places. Researchers termed those transient lines, and 729 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: they're almost always males, and males tend to be the 730 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: ones that get in the most trouble. A friend of 731 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: mine that works for the government is I think it 732 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: was five hundred lions were removed in a I forget 733 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: how many year period of time, but the vast majority 734 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: of them were males. And that's typically what you see. 735 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: They're they're the ones that get in the most strokes. 736 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 1: You treat more males and females. They're easier to treat, 737 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: and I would say, yes we do. Why the easier 738 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: to drink, you know, they leave more scent. They travel 739 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: the country. The example I always used as a guy 740 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: going into the store and buying something. He goes in 741 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 1: and he gets what he wants and he comes back, 742 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,399 Speaker 1: he's gone. He hit straight lighted in straight light out. 743 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: You send your girlfriend or your wife in there. She 744 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: might be there an hour to do this, get the 745 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: same thing, and wonder all over the damn store. That's 746 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: how female lines are, so it makes much more challenging 747 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: to trail. They leave less scent, so they you know, 748 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: it's just the males are generally much like in the 749 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: case of Chris's lion that day when some of the 750 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: gun came right straight down that canyon for two or 751 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: three miles, you know, And and when we were going 752 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,800 Speaker 1: backwards trying to find the dog, we saw every place 753 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: that he scratched and every mark that he made along there. 754 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: And by the way, I'd say that they used their 755 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: hind feet most of the time. It's just a nine feeahs, 756 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: what I mean. Their thought has always been. But there's 757 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 1: an awful lot of pictures on trail cameras. Now I'm 758 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: using the hind feet, but and they used both, but 759 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: sometimes they use their front feet. Two. You know, there's 760 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: a story I know, I told you this in the 761 00:39:53,880 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: past play where in the in Florida it was generally 762 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: accepted that the Florida panther was gone. You know, there 763 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 1: was rumors of sightings in the same way that now 764 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: they could take some state like Missouri or something. We're 765 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: like now and then a guy will see one. Everybody 766 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: tells me he's crazy. Right, That was the situation in Florida. 767 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: But there was some guys who just knew they were there. 768 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: And there's a story where a guy in some someone 769 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: in the early thirties, I think it was, he got 770 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: in touch with some houndsman in Arizona and they came 771 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: out and within a couple of weeks had killed seven 772 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: lions in Florida, at which point we said, okay, we 773 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: at the point and like the guy was just basically saying, 774 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: stopped telling me there's no lions in Florida. And I 775 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: don't remember who the line hunter was, but that could 776 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: have been one of the Lee brothers or any number 777 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 1: of you know, there was a lot of famous line hunters. 778 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: I went and reread it because you had mentioned there 779 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: was some famous lion guys. I went read he the name, 780 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: the name of the guy that came well, a man 781 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 1: out of Texas his name, And there's a whole family 782 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: of the McBride's, and Roy McBride is the one that 783 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: I believe that I don't remember where maybe out of 784 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 1: Texas that they took lions back to Florida and infused 785 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: him into that population and helped to help bring it 786 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: back around and some fresh genetics in there, you know. 787 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's been a dynamic population down there now 788 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: and it seems like they've got a very healthy population. 789 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: It's doing better now. And it was a funny thing 790 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: because when we talk about mountains, were talking about there's 791 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: so many names, so mountain, lion, cougar, puma, puma, catamount 792 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: when you don't hear it very often, I mean that 793 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: was like a older term in the East primarily was catamount. Um, 794 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: it's all the same thing. And so like again, like 795 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 1: you go back to the time of European contact, these 796 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: things were everywhere, right, you know, Yeah, there was no 797 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 1: real division, so there was probably no genetic barrier. Really 798 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: when you factored like how much they could travel, how 799 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: many places, there were probably no genetic barrier between the 800 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: ones in Florida and the ones in Washington State. There's 801 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: a lions you know. Um, when the lion population in 802 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: Florida got so low, people made an argument that, um, 803 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: they were talking, they were talking like a subspecies, and 804 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,280 Speaker 1: it's just constant like in in biology, had this constant 805 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: like lumping and splitting. But people were arguing that you 806 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: had this like subspecies in Florida and it would damage 807 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: it somehow to bring you know, blood in from somewhere else. 808 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 1: But they did and and and you know, literally every 809 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: mountain range can have its own subspecies if you get 810 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: carried away just because the animals may or may not 811 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: ever travel out of that and they have the same 812 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,760 Speaker 1: kind of thing. They called it the hum of puma 813 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 1: here in Arizona, and you know, it was was a 814 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 1: lion that was geographically isolated, just like the Florida pants. 815 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: And at that point they will take on their own 816 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: genetic characteristics, but they're still all mountain lines. Yeah, and 817 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,240 Speaker 1: those things in Florida we're having that they needed genetic 818 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 1: diversity brought in so bad. They were like their tails 819 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: are shaped wrong, and there's all kinds of problems. And 820 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: it was a funny thing because like you look at 821 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: people who argue in favor of the existence of bigfoot, 822 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 1: okay that you've had, you know, like people say it 823 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: was all these big foots in the up big foots 824 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: of California and big foots in Washington big foots in Oregon. 825 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: So you've got a sizeable population, you must, right, And 826 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: they've been here continuously now since people would argue pre 827 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: before the arrival of Native Americans across the barrin Land Bridge. Um, 828 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: no one's hit one with a car yet, no one 829 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: has a trail campot. Well, but in Florida, just like 830 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: take just like the dead on the street thing. Okay, 831 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: in Florida, at a point they were down to a 832 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:03,720 Speaker 1: known like forty seven or fifty mountain lions in Florida. 833 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: And every year they're losing multiple cats to getting hit 834 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: by cars. And this is in the Everglades, which is 835 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,240 Speaker 1: not a huge abundance of roads, And you've got fifty 836 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: of a species and you're hitting several year with cars. 837 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,720 Speaker 1: That to me is the greatest argument against the existence 838 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: of bigfoot. If you could be hitting like a significant 839 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: percentage of mount lions of cars every year. But no 840 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: one's running into one of these things, a real one. 841 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: It's always like it's like a real dead one that 842 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 1: we can just show around. I run into people occasionally 843 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 1: that actually believe that there is you know what I mean. 844 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:44,440 Speaker 1: I have two of my life that I can think 845 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 1: of that we're dead serious about it. And I in 846 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: the general goes back to an experience they had out 847 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: in the woods where they saw something that they thought 848 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: was Bigfoot. But I spent thirty years of my life 849 00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: right into the state of Arizona staring at the ground. 850 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: I've never seen anything that even came close to looking 851 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: like big Foot this country. Yeah, well, I mean that's 852 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 1: probably true. We have a lot of sightings here. Yeah. Um, 853 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: what is some of the work you've done with going 854 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: out with government people or biologists or whatever to like 855 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,280 Speaker 1: get lions. We all the bulk of it was probably 856 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: the late eighties. I haven't done much in the last 857 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,280 Speaker 1: ten or fifteen years, but it would be the studies 858 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: over by Wickenburg and over in that area in the 859 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: in the desert country and uh from Wicky Up and 860 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: all through the western portion of our state over there. Well, 861 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,399 Speaker 1: they do they hire you just to put lions into trees? Yeah, 862 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: but there was It was hired in one case, and 863 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,439 Speaker 1: then the other is generally volunteering my time because it's 864 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: all the Typically the biologists were friends of mine and 865 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: people like that that that knew us. But you and 866 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: in those in those places, you almost always put them 867 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: up in a rock, you know, want to bluff, and 868 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,000 Speaker 1: they darted, put a collar on them, and then a 869 00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: lot of times we have to go back out and 870 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: change called you know, and the back in those days, 871 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 1: the telemetric systems weren't what they are today, and we 872 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: certainly didn't have any satellite stuff, so it was all 873 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,839 Speaker 1: they would change them, which, you know, those lions get 874 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 1: to be pretty savvy after you have to do that 875 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 1: with him a couple of times, because like if a 876 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 1: lion trees once and gets caught, he's less likely to 877 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,800 Speaker 1: tree again the second time. He darn's you're not gonna 878 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: tree is easily typically uh particularly, I say that the 879 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: females seemed to be worse than the males. But you know, 880 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,879 Speaker 1: Julie and I this year had a mail lion that well. 881 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,440 Speaker 1: We started the track in the morning at six or 882 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: seven in the morning and went from Arizona to New 883 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: Mexico eight miles as the crow flies air air miles 884 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: eight miles, and at three o'clock in the afternoon, the 885 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 1: lion was across the canyon from US actual Mile Creek 886 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 1: Canyon drainage and we could see the lion. It was 887 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: laying on the side of the rim looking back, watching 888 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 1: the dogs come, and that turned into second pack of 889 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: dogs in that process, so that lion wasn't gonna be coughed. 890 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 1: And then we watched. We saw it twice that day. 891 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 1: You never caught it, never caught it. In fact, the 892 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: second time we saw it, I called a friend of 893 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 1: mine that owned the ranch, and he came and got 894 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: on the track with the lions and the dogs, and 895 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 1: you know, we ended up getting caught up with him 896 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: and getting the hound stopped. But that line, I doubt 897 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: that that line will ever be caught by hounds. And 898 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: it's obviously learned that that's a learn because he's just 899 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,719 Speaker 1: not going to go into a tree. And what they 900 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: do is they get out in front of the dog. 901 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: In that case, he would get about you might say 902 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 1: it was a half mile. He started moving again, and 903 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,399 Speaker 1: they start trotting and for whatever reason. Typically it's there's 904 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 1: a lot of different theories behind it. But a lion 905 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 1: that is trotting or running is much harder for a 906 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 1: dog to trail if the scent has landed on the ground, 907 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,840 Speaker 1: if the scent still floating in the air, and the 908 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: hound can take it out of the air. It can 909 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: really put some pressure on it on an animal, But 910 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: as soon as that scentence in the air dissipate, it's 911 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,480 Speaker 1: the dog has to go back to smelling it on 912 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,799 Speaker 1: the ground. And now the scent and the spores that 913 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,400 Speaker 1: were very evenly laid because the lion was casually walking 914 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,800 Speaker 1: are now in bounded piles where it's landing, if it's jumping, 915 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: or even when it's trotting, it's just dispersing those those 916 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: cells elsewhere for it. So it makes it harder for 917 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: me to trade it. Yea. And there again, that's when 918 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 1: it comes into the case if the dogs are in 919 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: good enough shape. I thought mine were in really good 920 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,880 Speaker 1: shape at that time, but they're there are guys that 921 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:31,879 Speaker 1: hunt that to do it professionally that their dogs might 922 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 1: have been in better shape and put more pressure on 923 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: that cap and made it climb a tree. But it 924 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,799 Speaker 1: was a long day. So when you saw that land 925 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: across the cane, what you mean he just looked over there, 926 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: he was, Julie saw and she's can't wanted me to 927 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 1: shoot it, And of course I had a pistol and 928 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: I told her, I said, I wasn't gonna be able 929 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 1: to shoot it and she filmed. In the filmed it 930 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 1: will be laying under the tree, and it did its 931 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,839 Speaker 1: mouth hanging wide open. It's like how many yards away 932 00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,759 Speaker 1: d fifties, hundred seventy five. It's one of those. It's 933 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 1: just you know, real abrupt, bluffy canyon. And then you 934 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,359 Speaker 1: saw him get back up and start going right as 935 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: in the dog and it laid down under a big 936 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,280 Speaker 1: pine tree. Was interesting to watch this that the dogs. 937 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: There was three dogs coming and we we knew, you know, 938 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: they're all we knew which dogs they were. They were 939 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: coming fast. When they got to the tree, they thought 940 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,399 Speaker 1: the lion had gone up the tree because the scent 941 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,360 Speaker 1: was so strong. So they fooled around there for another 942 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,600 Speaker 1: five minutes or so while the lions just getting farther 943 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,239 Speaker 1: ahead and going and going, and I'm sure it got 944 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,640 Speaker 1: ahead of and now the hounds never quit going, so 945 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 1: that you know, the lions were doing this where it's 946 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 1: running for a while and it'll go through a really 947 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,400 Speaker 1: rough spot and then take a break, and it just 948 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: it was there are a lot smarter than people think 949 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,560 Speaker 1: they are. That's uh. You know, there's a lot of 950 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 1: people that will make the case that a cat's i 951 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,759 Speaker 1: Q was greater than that of a dog. And I 952 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,880 Speaker 1: never really thought that most of my life, but you know, 953 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 1: some of these experiences like that really makes you think 954 00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,880 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, have you encountered Uh well, let me 955 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 1: let me go back to to the to the to 956 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 1: the biology things. So you guys would go out and 957 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: catch them with the collar on. Does that make it 958 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 1: super easy to catch a line when you got a 959 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,719 Speaker 1: telemetry deal? Yes, typically when you do that, doesn't know 960 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 1: where he is and when he's there, right. Uh, it's 961 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, half of the hunt is trying to locate 962 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 1: a track a lot of times. And you know, once 963 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,000 Speaker 1: you locate the track, then you start trailing the line 964 00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,840 Speaker 1: and we're you know, really when you have the collar 965 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:32,720 Speaker 1: on a line like that, you're going to a spot 966 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,560 Speaker 1: to to catch the line with you with fresh dogs, 967 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 1: and so it's a lot different. So what happens between 968 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,359 Speaker 1: when you run the line and the line doesn't know 969 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,040 Speaker 1: you're after him, He's just going about his business. When 970 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: you say jump a line, what do you like? What 971 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: happens when they jump the lion? That just means the 972 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: lion is now aware of dogs. That means we've come 973 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,120 Speaker 1: to the place. You know, the Lions, they travel a 974 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,359 Speaker 1: great deal or afternoon, late evening, and then again they 975 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,040 Speaker 1: travel some in the morning, but most of their traveling 976 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,160 Speaker 1: starts about three or four in the afternoon and then 977 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 1: probably eight nine o'clock that you know they're they're either 978 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,440 Speaker 1: laying up somewhere. I know, I've learned a lot from 979 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,040 Speaker 1: people's trail camp photos. They just don't travel as much 980 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,560 Speaker 1: as I thought they'd traveled all night, and they don't. 981 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,440 Speaker 1: It seems like the sweet spot for them is that 982 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,239 Speaker 1: early evening stuff. So if you started to track the 983 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,480 Speaker 1: daylight hours, right, most through traveling is daylight hours, that 984 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,640 Speaker 1: gray light type stuff, and you're liable to see them 985 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:39,880 Speaker 1: at any time, but the the evening, early evening and 986 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,560 Speaker 1: in that, you know, eight nine o'clock seems to be 987 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,000 Speaker 1: the time that they do most of their hunt. So 988 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,160 Speaker 1: if you're picking up on one of those tracks, you're now, 989 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,120 Speaker 1: say you hit it at seven or eight o'clock in 990 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,319 Speaker 1: the morning, you're twelve hours behind this thing. So it's 991 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: going to be a grind. And if it's a mail 992 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,399 Speaker 1: in the conditions are right like this time of year, 993 00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,319 Speaker 1: those mails put off a lot more scent and the 994 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,880 Speaker 1: trailing conditions are a lot better than say if it 995 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 1: was in September or in in October. But when you 996 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,759 Speaker 1: you'll you know, the dogs are barking and trailing, doing 997 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,799 Speaker 1: a hundred miles of what we did together. When they 998 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,839 Speaker 1: get to where that lion is laid up, that lion 999 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 1: jumps and runs. Now that tracks very fresh, and a 1000 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 1: lot of times they're taking it out of the air. 1001 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,080 Speaker 1: They'll be chasing that line and it just you can 1002 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,839 Speaker 1: tell the dogs had jumped it. It just the intensity 1003 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,960 Speaker 1: and the and their excitement and some dogs that may 1004 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,800 Speaker 1: not have barked all day all of a sudden be 1005 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: joining in and that's when you know they've jumped the line. 1006 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,560 Speaker 1: And that's that's when the race is on. And sometimes 1007 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:37,120 Speaker 1: it'll just last at the bottom of the canyon. Uh, 1008 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,520 Speaker 1: And then sometimes it may be a mile or but 1009 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,040 Speaker 1: it generally is typically a normal lion, it would be 1010 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:44,880 Speaker 1: over that's you know, you would expect to get it 1011 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,040 Speaker 1: caught at that point. And when you when he's getting caught, 1012 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:53,680 Speaker 1: what's he usually going into? Trees are rock piles in Arizona. 1013 00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:57,600 Speaker 1: We probably catch them them in the rocks. Do they 1014 00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,799 Speaker 1: go in the holes? Oh? Yeah, Mine all kinds of 1015 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,760 Speaker 1: and it's I think that cats just wonder through their 1016 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,120 Speaker 1: domain throughout time, because they seemed to find the craziest 1017 00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:10,000 Speaker 1: places to go get in, and they also seem to 1018 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,440 Speaker 1: know how to get out of them. And we Dave 1019 00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,799 Speaker 1: Martin's lion, the fellow that puts the rim to rim 1020 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,359 Speaker 1: On this year, the lion Joe Mitchell called and said, 1021 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, we're coming your way. And anyhow, when they 1022 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:24,759 Speaker 1: he actually saw the lion get up and go on 1023 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,160 Speaker 1: the rock pile, he was above us. And we hiked 1024 00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,120 Speaker 1: up to where the rock pile was, and Dave and 1025 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:31,799 Speaker 1: Joe were standing on one side of the rock pile, 1026 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,800 Speaker 1: and I watched the lion come out the other side, 1027 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,720 Speaker 1: and I say a rock pilot. It's probably a seventy 1028 00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:41,000 Speaker 1: five yard long pilot boulders and that lion had traveled 1029 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,400 Speaker 1: through that maze of boulders and come out somehow on 1030 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,200 Speaker 1: our side. And unfortunately for all of us that were 1031 00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,480 Speaker 1: hunting the lion, I had dogs with me and saw it, 1032 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,280 Speaker 1: and then we got Joe's dogs over there and managed 1033 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,360 Speaker 1: to get it in a tree. But you know that 1034 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,800 Speaker 1: that lion, and that's how smart they are. The underground 1035 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,160 Speaker 1: passing toway. Yeah, had an underground passageway and the lion 1036 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,640 Speaker 1: had gotten away the week before doing something similar to that. Okay, 1037 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:07,720 Speaker 1: you know, but they're they're cats. You know, they probably 1038 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:12,439 Speaker 1: spend their lifetime prowling around that mountain, investigating all those 1039 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:14,960 Speaker 1: nooks and cranny's and that kind of thing. I was hunting. 1040 00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,640 Speaker 1: How often kind of quick question, how often can you 1041 00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:19,680 Speaker 1: jump on like that and be on like a hot 1042 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,120 Speaker 1: track where there where you're like the chases on, but 1043 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,240 Speaker 1: then you don't get them treated. You know, it's happened 1044 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,360 Speaker 1: once this year, you know, a out of a dozen 1045 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:34,640 Speaker 1: lins haven't done Yeah, so it's uh it Typically when 1046 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,080 Speaker 1: they jump a line, you should catch it, but you 1047 00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 1: just never know. It's you know, that's kind of what 1048 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,239 Speaker 1: makes it exciting now. And the lions are definitely this, 1049 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, as the numbers of lions decrease, the lines 1050 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:51,600 Speaker 1: that are in existence, or just smarter genetically, you know, 1051 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,319 Speaker 1: whether it's a genetic thing or learned trait from having 1052 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,479 Speaker 1: been hunted, or whatever it may be. They certainly seem 1053 00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 1: to be jumping and running and they're evolving more and 1054 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,319 Speaker 1: that sense. I recently, I have a dog out in 1055 00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,239 Speaker 1: the backyard. You haven't seen Steve that's a friend of 1056 00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,279 Speaker 1: mine out at Wisconsin helped me acquire and they call 1057 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,239 Speaker 1: him Lurchers, but it's half border Collie and half Staghund 1058 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,280 Speaker 1: and his only job is to handle those kinds of things. 1059 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,719 Speaker 1: And he's just a physical specimen as far as an 1060 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,839 Speaker 1: animal that's super high intelligence and unbelievable physical ability. And 1061 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,000 Speaker 1: he just meant to handle a jump line, right, jump 1062 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,279 Speaker 1: lines lines that that do things that the hounds. The 1063 00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,040 Speaker 1: hounds typically if one jumps and they're looking at it, 1064 00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,719 Speaker 1: that they handled that very well. But this dog would 1065 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:38,040 Speaker 1: be more along the lines of with his intelligence and 1066 00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,799 Speaker 1: the fact that he isn't a trailhound. When he thinks 1067 00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,520 Speaker 1: we might be getting close to a place where we're 1068 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,319 Speaker 1: gonna jump a lion, he gets out and he's he 1069 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:47,400 Speaker 1: spends a lot of time doing things that the hounds 1070 00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:49,239 Speaker 1: aren't doing trying to get the jump on that line. 1071 00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,520 Speaker 1: He's kind of just kicks out the intensity just a 1072 00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,680 Speaker 1: little bit, and he doesn't even normally leave us until 1073 00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,080 Speaker 1: he thinks they might be getting close to catching it, 1074 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,360 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden he'll just disappear and 1075 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,520 Speaker 1: and I don't know, I mean, I never been there 1076 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,440 Speaker 1: right when it happens. But I feel like he has 1077 00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,240 Speaker 1: definitely helped. I know that he helps when they jump 1078 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,680 Speaker 1: in the tree jump type stuff. He doesn't really do 1079 00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:14,279 Speaker 1: a lot of things like a hound does, but he 1080 00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,759 Speaker 1: never quits looking at him. And you know, when like 1081 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,799 Speaker 1: that lion hits and he's only seen maybe ten or 1082 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,640 Speaker 1: fifteen lions. Now, when that lion heads out to a 1083 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:24,040 Speaker 1: tree limb, he looks like he's trying to catch a 1084 00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,560 Speaker 1: pop fly, you know. I mean he's right there trying 1085 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,080 Speaker 1: you know it's gonna do. Yeah, and he's you know, 1086 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,719 Speaker 1: he's anticipating it the whole way. Yeah. And your dogs 1087 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,680 Speaker 1: might be oblivious to the fact that the lions leaving 1088 00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,120 Speaker 1: the tree. No, they some are, but most of them 1089 00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,560 Speaker 1: kind of get that. But they tend to be more reactive. 1090 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,640 Speaker 1: In the border Collie in him is you can see 1091 00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:46,880 Speaker 1: the intelligence factor there. You know, you're talking about that 1092 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,240 Speaker 1: lion going underground, you know and coming on. In our spot, 1093 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:55,080 Speaker 1: we were hunting pigs, wild pigs in New Zealand with 1094 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,319 Speaker 1: dogs and the guy had the GPS collars on the 1095 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,560 Speaker 1: dogs and of a sudden his dogs just vanished off 1096 00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,640 Speaker 1: of his He's not getting on his unit. He's not 1097 00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,840 Speaker 1: getting their signal anymore, and we start going to drags 1098 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,920 Speaker 1: we'd last heard him, and then now and then he'd 1099 00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 1: be like it popped the dog and pop up. One 1100 00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:16,960 Speaker 1: of the dogs will be like, oh, there it is. 1101 00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,960 Speaker 1: But then it to go away. And it was because 1102 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,640 Speaker 1: this pig had gone down into a tunnel. The dog 1103 00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 1: went in and the yeah it wasn't getting satellite reception 1104 00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,000 Speaker 1: anymore on his collar. But then the pig went up 1105 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:35,080 Speaker 1: getting stuck in the tunnel. So the dogs just down 1106 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,400 Speaker 1: there holding on the pig's tail and no one's coming 1107 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,640 Speaker 1: out of that hole. Wow. So we went up digging 1108 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,640 Speaker 1: a shaft down to the pig and pulled up a 1109 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,320 Speaker 1: dog still hanging off it on the other end. Like 1110 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,240 Speaker 1: the dogs were just never going to give up, no 1111 00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,680 Speaker 1: they You know, that's a good that's generally your best dogs, 1112 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:58,360 Speaker 1: you know, the ones that quit earlier and all that. 1113 00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,560 Speaker 1: Those are the ones that you probably wonder if you 1114 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,320 Speaker 1: shouldn't find him a good home. But those that and 1115 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,480 Speaker 1: and unfortunately those a lot of times you're the dogs 1116 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,800 Speaker 1: that get killed because they jump off bluffs after their 1117 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:10,800 Speaker 1: quarry or whatever it may be. But those are the 1118 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:16,360 Speaker 1: good ones. It's kind of funny you talk about um. 1119 00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,600 Speaker 1: It's like we have such a weird relationship with dogs 1120 00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,800 Speaker 1: in this country where on some on some level, we 1121 00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,920 Speaker 1: want to bestow on them like human characteristics, you know, 1122 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:30,200 Speaker 1: and that they have almost like human rights. But then 1123 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,240 Speaker 1: how can you then tell the dog that he shouldn't 1124 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,640 Speaker 1: want to hunt lions? Yeah? Do you know what I mean? Like, 1125 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:41,600 Speaker 1: it's like an honest question I always think about, is um, 1126 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,880 Speaker 1: if you really are like, let's say you're like adamant. 1127 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:49,120 Speaker 1: You know you're vegan, right, do you think that wolves 1128 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:54,120 Speaker 1: should stop killing the ones? That ever? Actually answered this 1129 00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:55,720 Speaker 1: question for me? But you know what I mean, It's like, 1130 00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:57,840 Speaker 1: who were we to tell the dog that he don't 1131 00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,680 Speaker 1: want to hunt that lion? Well, think about your animal rights. 1132 00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,680 Speaker 1: People are cat and dog lovers that have some form 1133 00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:07,600 Speaker 1: of an animal in their home, and if they let 1134 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,920 Speaker 1: that animal be wild for one second, it would go 1135 00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,880 Speaker 1: back to going killing its own, particularly cat Like, you 1136 00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,440 Speaker 1: don't need to talk the dog into one to hunt lions. 1137 00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:21,720 Speaker 1: They get up in the No, that's I mean, And 1138 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,600 Speaker 1: that's what really Probably the breeding of those dogs is 1139 00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:30,120 Speaker 1: the single most important part, is to breed that drive 1140 00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,880 Speaker 1: and desire and those those characteristics into them. I'm fortunate 1141 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,640 Speaker 1: enough of a man here in Arizona that's hunted lions 1142 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,360 Speaker 1: his entire life named Steve Smith, and a man that's 1143 00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:42,440 Speaker 1: mentored me, Jim Bueler out of Nevada. Those guys have 1144 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:46,200 Speaker 1: the breeding that they've created. I've been the beneficiary of. 1145 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 1: And it's a game changer for you as a lion 1146 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,280 Speaker 1: hunter to have those genetics that where that dog get 1147 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,240 Speaker 1: you know, when it's the day it's born, it's it's 1148 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,600 Speaker 1: almost as though they want to hunt lions. So you've 1149 00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,360 Speaker 1: got dogs that come from generations of do dogs have 1150 01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:06,560 Speaker 1: been selected like selectively bred Ford lion hunting decades? Thirty 1151 01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,080 Speaker 1: forty years? Did you were you on lines and all 1152 01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:11,960 Speaker 1: during the bounty days when you could get a bounty 1153 01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,880 Speaker 1: on lines? No, that was that was in the I 1154 01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:19,120 Speaker 1: think they late sixties. That one a wedding here. So 1155 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:20,919 Speaker 1: if you refer to that at the time away ago 1156 01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,960 Speaker 1: when you just like back turn in the scalp on 1157 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,160 Speaker 1: that line, right, and there was and there was guys 1158 01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,120 Speaker 1: that and we still to this day have government guys 1159 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,120 Speaker 1: that are on payroll to do that. To protect the 1160 01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,800 Speaker 1: livestock industry, you know, some of these lions just they 1161 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,960 Speaker 1: can wreck havoc uh in Nevada. I know Jim Deeler's 1162 01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:45,240 Speaker 1: dealt with as many as twenty and thirty sheep killed 1163 01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 1: in one one evening, and there's numbers where they're much 1164 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,000 Speaker 1: higher than that. But that's not a crazy thing to see. 1165 01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:53,880 Speaker 1: Julie and I showed up one time in the line 1166 01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:57,040 Speaker 1: had killed twelve sheet that day. Yeah, it just looks 1167 01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:00,440 Speaker 1: like a massacre. And I I'm not sure why they 1168 01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,640 Speaker 1: do it, you know they I think they just get 1169 01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,440 Speaker 1: to be like a large mount bass eat and chad, 1170 01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, they just get to kill them. 1171 01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,040 Speaker 1: Did the lion? Did you guys catch the line and 1172 01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,240 Speaker 1: killed all those sheep? We did? I remember when I 1173 01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,080 Speaker 1: was a kid, I used to read Tracker and Predator 1174 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,200 Speaker 1: Caller magazine. I remember an article in there. It was 1175 01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,720 Speaker 1: called like the hundred thousand dollar lion, and it was 1176 01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:23,760 Speaker 1: because they had done a big horn sheep transplant and 1177 01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:29,560 Speaker 1: in a lion killed all the sheep they transported. You 1178 01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:32,080 Speaker 1: know that they've brought into this area. I feel like 1179 01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,800 Speaker 1: it was in Arizona. Well, there's been, of course, the 1180 01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,040 Speaker 1: the brilliance of our Game and Fish Department here to 1181 01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,720 Speaker 1: transplant sheep on a mountain called Lion Mountain. This is 1182 01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,040 Speaker 1: back in the days when they didn't acknowledge that lions 1183 01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,440 Speaker 1: had an effect on sheep, which in the last decade 1184 01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,440 Speaker 1: they have certainly come light years around on that. But 1185 01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:55,280 Speaker 1: even today we have the Derringers are just world class 1186 01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:58,280 Speaker 1: line hunters here in Arizona are working on the air 1187 01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,440 Speaker 1: Viper sheeper to preserve it. Another man, Jim Bedlin, has 1188 01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:03,280 Speaker 1: done a lot of work. Steve Smith done a lot 1189 01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,000 Speaker 1: of work and Unit twenty two here to bring that 1190 01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,320 Speaker 1: those sheet that Jay send to take pressure off of 1191 01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:11,640 Speaker 1: remove that remove as much pressure as they could. Typically 1192 01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:13,560 Speaker 1: they remove the females or what you need to get 1193 01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:15,600 Speaker 1: out of there to get a sheet population to come back. 1194 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,520 Speaker 1: There's no girls. The boys don't show up for the party, 1195 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:21,040 Speaker 1: and the and the females when they set up and 1196 01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,560 Speaker 1: teach those kittens to kill those sheep. They're just devastating. 1197 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:27,320 Speaker 1: I know. The guys in Nevada, Jim Bueler and Casey 1198 01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 1: Shields are both were just working on the salmon or 1199 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,680 Speaker 1: ever on the rockies removing lions there this last week. 1200 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:36,200 Speaker 1: So that's been for what kind of stuff. Their egg 1201 01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,080 Speaker 1: purposes or for wildlife purpose. The wildlife purpose, that's all 1202 01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:42,320 Speaker 1: wildlife stuff. That's one thing you really lose is well, 1203 01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:46,320 Speaker 1: it's very expensive to keep professional lions hunters in business, 1204 01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:49,360 Speaker 1: and we'll always have them as long as we have lines. 1205 01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:53,200 Speaker 1: I mean, California they banned sport sport hunting of lions, 1206 01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,280 Speaker 1: and I think they were killing three or four lions 1207 01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:56,800 Speaker 1: a year, and now they kill three or four iron 1208 01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:58,680 Speaker 1: and do the same thing, except we pay to do 1209 01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,960 Speaker 1: and is that right? Yeah, yeah, the harvest of lions 1210 01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,960 Speaker 1: has never gone down in California. Just illegal to do 1211 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,760 Speaker 1: it from a sports standpoint now, but from the agriculture 1212 01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,040 Speaker 1: of standpoint, you know, you just if you're gonna have 1213 01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna feed this nation, you have to keep predators 1214 01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:19,120 Speaker 1: from meeting the sheep and the cattle. Any idea what 1215 01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,560 Speaker 1: it costs you think to keep to kill three four 1216 01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,760 Speaker 1: lions in California? No, I mean, I don't know off 1217 01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:27,280 Speaker 1: top of my head, but it's you know, it's it's 1218 01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:30,480 Speaker 1: a government agency that's functioning, and you can imagine the 1219 01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:32,520 Speaker 1: expense of that. But we'd have them anyway. They deal 1220 01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:34,560 Speaker 1: with a lot of other things. They deal with everything 1221 01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:38,880 Speaker 1: from the you know, controlling the waterfowl around airports so 1222 01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,520 Speaker 1: we can take off a lander airplane. Yeah, you know, 1223 01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:45,320 Speaker 1: deer on the runways at the military bases. And you know, 1224 01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:49,120 Speaker 1: because something must have shifted in California though, because you 1225 01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,600 Speaker 1: hear about that that like that the number of cats 1226 01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,800 Speaker 1: their lions are removing through predator control. But then on 1227 01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,720 Speaker 1: the other hand, you hear so many stories about just 1228 01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:02,480 Speaker 1: like the shifting nature of the lion population in California 1229 01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,800 Speaker 1: and lions popping up in places they hadn't popped up 1230 01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:09,360 Speaker 1: in before, guys losing more livestock lines than the used dude, 1231 01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,120 Speaker 1: so something must be It must not be that they 1232 01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:14,040 Speaker 1: were going to kill x number and now they're killing 1233 01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,680 Speaker 1: the same number. Anyways, there you probably wouldn't have these issues. No, 1234 01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:23,520 Speaker 1: and it's always hard to track lion actual lion harvest numbers. 1235 01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:26,960 Speaker 1: But one thing that when you are hunting a lion population, 1236 01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:30,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's especially even if guys are catching them 1237 01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:32,160 Speaker 1: and turn them loose. Those lions have a tendency to 1238 01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:36,520 Speaker 1: avoid people. And these big males christs was I mean, 1239 01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,320 Speaker 1: I think back to years was probably the worst, one 1240 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:40,520 Speaker 1: of the worst I can remember. But we can't oneed 1241 01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,000 Speaker 1: in Mexico last year. That absolutely and I can tell 1242 01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,040 Speaker 1: when I come up to them whether they're going to 1243 01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:46,960 Speaker 1: be a problem or not. But some of those lions, 1244 01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:49,880 Speaker 1: they're king of the woods, those big males, they don't 1245 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,160 Speaker 1: wonder if they can kill you. And and when you 1246 01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,320 Speaker 1: get a line like that wandering around in some place 1247 01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:56,439 Speaker 1: with children or people that are jogging and not paying 1248 01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,080 Speaker 1: attention if it decides to kill, I think the only 1249 01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,840 Speaker 1: reason they don't kill more people is at a their 1250 01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,960 Speaker 1: upright and they don't correlate that with their normal method 1251 01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:08,320 Speaker 1: of taking prey. And we probably taste bad, you know, 1252 01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,160 Speaker 1: I mean in comparison to say a deer or something 1253 01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:13,360 Speaker 1: they're accustomed to eating. But we've certainly lost people, I mean, 1254 01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:15,240 Speaker 1: and every year, you know, Colorado seems to be having 1255 01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:19,600 Speaker 1: more more interaction than anybody these days. The female joggers 1256 01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,120 Speaker 1: and an adult and then uh young kids. It seems 1257 01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:26,000 Speaker 1: like so it's like something, it is like there's some 1258 01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,880 Speaker 1: kind of like visual thing and often like the thing 1259 01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:30,080 Speaker 1: with like people running. Well, I think the reaction of 1260 01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,120 Speaker 1: those two types of people are where a man may 1261 01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:36,200 Speaker 1: stand this ground or at least not at least think 1262 01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,480 Speaker 1: not to just turn and run children. It's hard to 1263 01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:42,800 Speaker 1: convey that to them. You know, they're just probably they're 1264 01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,560 Speaker 1: scared and they're gonna run. And even if the cat wasn't, 1265 01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,400 Speaker 1: cats are very instinctive. If they're just like housecats. Lions 1266 01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,640 Speaker 1: are overgrown, great big version of a house cat, and 1267 01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,880 Speaker 1: if something runs from it, they just go into that 1268 01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:59,160 Speaker 1: predatory mode. Well, in fact, like how many lions there are, 1269 01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:02,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of shocking, and like how many there are, 1270 01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:05,800 Speaker 1: and that they have the capability to kill people, it's shocking. 1271 01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,280 Speaker 1: It just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen more. And I 1272 01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,360 Speaker 1: always tell people, you don't here in Arizona used to 1273 01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:12,439 Speaker 1: be typical for people to hunt a lifetime and see 1274 01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:16,600 Speaker 1: a lion. Now, with everybody doing so much more optics hunting, 1275 01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,520 Speaker 1: they tend to see a lot more with the optics 1276 01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:20,880 Speaker 1: than they used to. But I always told people, I said, 1277 01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,680 Speaker 1: we don't ever wonder if once has seen you. You know, 1278 01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:25,880 Speaker 1: I don't know how many times we've ridden by where 1279 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,960 Speaker 1: a lion was laid up and come back the next 1280 01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,280 Speaker 1: day and trailed it, you know, and realized that some 1281 01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:33,640 Speaker 1: of the gun was right there and all that, you know, 1282 01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,280 Speaker 1: let us ride by and maybe it was a sleep, 1283 01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:37,920 Speaker 1: maybe it was watching us, who knows, but it was 1284 01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:39,600 Speaker 1: five hundred yards up on the side of the mountain 1285 01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:43,360 Speaker 1: the bluffs watching us. Probably have to digress a little bit, 1286 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,760 Speaker 1: but just at the point you were talking about with 1287 01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,760 Speaker 1: lion harvest and lighton lion predation, employd pointing this out 1288 01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,360 Speaker 1: to me, and I think it's it's genius in the process. 1289 01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:58,400 Speaker 1: The thought process is that you know, we're controlling we're 1290 01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:03,720 Speaker 1: hunting lions, but we don't control coyotes near as well 1291 01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:05,600 Speaker 1: as we used to with the banning of trapping in 1292 01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:08,960 Speaker 1: most states and the banning of poison in all states. 1293 01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:10,880 Speaker 1: So a lion goes out and a lion kills a 1294 01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:13,400 Speaker 1: deer an average, it needs an average of one deer 1295 01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,160 Speaker 1: a week. A lion goes out and kills a deer, well, 1296 01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:18,960 Speaker 1: now kyle populations out of control. The kylotes come along 1297 01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,720 Speaker 1: and find the kill, eat it before the lion can 1298 01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:24,560 Speaker 1: even get a belly full. Practically. Now, all of a sudden, 1299 01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:27,080 Speaker 1: that lines back hunting again. You know, so instead of 1300 01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:29,760 Speaker 1: killing one deer a week, he's hope maybe killing two 1301 01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:32,280 Speaker 1: or three just to meet his needs, you know, you know, 1302 01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:34,960 Speaker 1: so it's you know, a state like California and we're 1303 01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,320 Speaker 1: killing you used to kill three hundred with sport with 1304 01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:39,840 Speaker 1: sport hunting. Now we're killing three hundred with government hunters. 1305 01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,400 Speaker 1: But I gotta believe if if we were controlling kyo populations, 1306 01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,600 Speaker 1: that three hundred would be was a lot more significant 1307 01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,080 Speaker 1: number back then than it is now. Yeah, because the 1308 01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:52,840 Speaker 1: coyotes are just basically forcing a deer hunt every the 1309 01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:55,720 Speaker 1: lion hunt. Interesting since we've had that conversation, I saw 1310 01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,240 Speaker 1: a studied the other day where they've documented that with 1311 01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:03,360 Speaker 1: the wolves, the same scenario they're getting. They're grizzly steal there, 1312 01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,720 Speaker 1: that the wolves steal the lion kills, woolf steel lion kills, 1313 01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:11,080 Speaker 1: and they pirate him. Which you know, there's a lot 1314 01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:12,840 Speaker 1: of things going on that are always hard. It's a 1315 01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,200 Speaker 1: very dynamic process when you try and figure out how 1316 01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:19,120 Speaker 1: lions engage the prey species, but there's always a lot 1317 01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,519 Speaker 1: of moving parts to it. To the coyote deal is 1318 01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:25,160 Speaker 1: a real significant problem here. They've taken some steps here 1319 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,240 Speaker 1: to try and manage them in certain places, but it's 1320 01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,280 Speaker 1: it's definitely where our phone crop was really really getting 1321 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:35,360 Speaker 1: hammered here. Losing them to that there was a video 1322 01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:37,760 Speaker 1: clip that came out of Washington where a deer had 1323 01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:43,479 Speaker 1: was wearing a collar camera and um, you're you're they 1324 01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:45,599 Speaker 1: have the footage from this where because he's like it's 1325 01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,439 Speaker 1: just like sort of it's sort of like the cameras 1326 01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:50,920 Speaker 1: hanging down where like the tags on a dog would 1327 01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:55,080 Speaker 1: hang down, and you can see the deer. He's just browsing. 1328 01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,679 Speaker 1: And when a lion comes and kills it. The lion 1329 01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:04,759 Speaker 1: comes directly on that thing, doesn't come from behind, doesn't 1330 01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:07,040 Speaker 1: jump from a tree. It's just all of a sudden, 1331 01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:11,800 Speaker 1: there's a lion running directly at this deer. Wow, and 1332 01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:15,240 Speaker 1: that deer's just dead in seconds. Oh, they're they're extremely 1333 01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,479 Speaker 1: effective killing. But he just came like just at it, 1334 01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:22,920 Speaker 1: you know. And typically I would say that they kind 1335 01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:24,760 Speaker 1: of ride up on him from behind and try and 1336 01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,280 Speaker 1: you think when you think that that behind, you do it. 1337 01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:28,840 Speaker 1: This guy this is like all of a sudden, there 1338 01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:32,720 Speaker 1: he is hit on his head and you got the 1339 01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:36,040 Speaker 1: feeling he'd done it before, you know. And you know, 1340 01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:39,679 Speaker 1: some of those big males and and any lion, their 1341 01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:45,200 Speaker 1: strength pound for pounds is just unbelievable to me. I mean, 1342 01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:48,400 Speaker 1: I've seen him flip dogs distances with I'm not even 1343 01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,120 Speaker 1: sure I saw quite how the dog got slung so far. 1344 01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:54,479 Speaker 1: And their strength is amazing. And to watch him leap 1345 01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,160 Speaker 1: up onto some bluffs since they just explode and fly 1346 01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,880 Speaker 1: through the air to they were just if you like 1347 01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,760 Speaker 1: for back to the housecat. You know, you watch a housecat, 1348 01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,320 Speaker 1: it's nothing for him to leap up on the side 1349 01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:07,599 Speaker 1: of the any piece of furniture or anything they decided 1350 01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:10,600 Speaker 1: to until those lions are just you know tenfold that. 1351 01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:14,799 Speaker 1: Have you ever been scratched by line the No, I haven't. 1352 01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:20,800 Speaker 1: The although Joe got bit two years ago and uh 1353 01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:24,880 Speaker 1: that was a complete fiasco. Or girls had shot the 1354 01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:27,680 Speaker 1: lion with the thirty eight special and it came out 1355 01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:31,840 Speaker 1: of the tree and the dogs were small, and it was, 1356 01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:34,320 Speaker 1: you know, kind of the normal problem with the lion. 1357 01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:36,960 Speaker 1: When Joe stepped in there to try and grab one 1358 01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,120 Speaker 1: of his dogs, the lion got ahold of his jeans 1359 01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:43,479 Speaker 1: and just I mean one just jerked on him a 1360 01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:45,400 Speaker 1: little bit and can jerked his leg out from under 1361 01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:47,840 Speaker 1: him and then just bid him in the right here 1362 01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,320 Speaker 1: in the calf and then proceeded to just claw its 1363 01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:53,080 Speaker 1: way up him. And that was and I had a 1364 01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:56,680 Speaker 1: pretty big oakland that I always get a stick when 1365 01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:59,400 Speaker 1: it when't we're about to shoot one. Anyhow, I went 1366 01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:01,240 Speaker 1: to hitting that thing. I couldn't get it off of him, 1367 01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,559 Speaker 1: but when I hit it, it it would quit going up him. 1368 01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:07,040 Speaker 1: Other than it was bidding, only bidding really hard the 1369 01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:11,679 Speaker 1: one time. And I remember the last time I swung 1370 01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:13,960 Speaker 1: at that thing. I remember thinking, if I missed this line, 1371 01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:17,120 Speaker 1: I'll break his femer in half. And uh, And I 1372 01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:18,960 Speaker 1: hit the line in the head and it turned around, 1373 01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,960 Speaker 1: came after me, and I had a pistol too, So 1374 01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:23,760 Speaker 1: it was, you know, kind of the end of the 1375 01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:27,920 Speaker 1: story there, but it was it was a painful experience 1376 01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:30,519 Speaker 1: for him. And we had punched moles and you have 1377 01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:34,240 Speaker 1: to do a bunch of stables shots like I ain't 1378 01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:36,720 Speaker 1: had shots for that. You've met Joe, so you can have. 1379 01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it was all we could do to get 1380 01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:41,960 Speaker 1: him to take some man about auto. He was kind 1381 01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:43,360 Speaker 1: of thought I was kind of a cool deal. He 1382 01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:48,120 Speaker 1: bleeding all over the place at That's really the only 1383 01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:51,920 Speaker 1: one where I've been involved in and somebody getting hurt. 1384 01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:56,600 Speaker 1: You know. The first line I ever saw I was 1385 01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:02,879 Speaker 1: coming back from trout fish on this lake and I'm driving. 1386 01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:06,920 Speaker 1: It's just after dark, and I'm driving, like I know 1387 01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,240 Speaker 1: where a roads cut into a steep hillside and also 1388 01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:16,560 Speaker 1: on all these white tails are like coming down the 1389 01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,280 Speaker 1: grade and just like a cloud of dust and kind 1390 01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:22,960 Speaker 1: of like plopping down into the road in front of me, 1391 01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:25,559 Speaker 1: but like they're spooked rather than being spooked from me, 1392 01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:31,360 Speaker 1: they're spooking from something almost like running into my into 1393 01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:35,559 Speaker 1: my my van and the headlights and all. And then 1394 01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:37,880 Speaker 1: but then the road was so sheer on the side 1395 01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:42,200 Speaker 1: that they sort of shuffle trying to stay on the 1396 01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:46,240 Speaker 1: road without going over the ledge. They sort of shuffle 1397 01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:53,559 Speaker 1: along like right alongside the door of the vehicle, And 1398 01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:58,200 Speaker 1: I rolled my window down and put it in reverse 1399 01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:00,559 Speaker 1: to turn the rear lights on. I'm trying to see 1400 01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:05,840 Speaker 1: what they're doing. And I roll the one down, put 1401 01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:08,720 Speaker 1: the backup lights on, and standing just feet off my 1402 01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,040 Speaker 1: bumpers a lion standing there, Like I have no idea 1403 01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:15,479 Speaker 1: what I drove into or what the situation was as 1404 01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:17,439 Speaker 1: I came around the corner. And I would like tried 1405 01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:19,040 Speaker 1: like the piece it together in my head. There's no 1406 01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:22,560 Speaker 1: way to explain like how everyone got in the position 1407 01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:25,080 Speaker 1: they were in when I hit him with those lights. 1408 01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:28,519 Speaker 1: He probably did a double take. Yeah, I was like, 1409 01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:34,360 Speaker 1: he's like, oh man, now what like there's a van here? Yeah, 1410 01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,720 Speaker 1: probably thinking thank God for that. It was just the 1411 01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:39,360 Speaker 1: weird It was the weirdest thing, man, just like standing 1412 01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:43,360 Speaker 1: there in the backups like, yeah, like he's trying to 1413 01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:47,680 Speaker 1: kill one around me. So, now, if you've been on 1414 01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:52,439 Speaker 1: you you on lines in Arizona in New Mexico, Now, 1415 01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:56,720 Speaker 1: what prevents you from his taking your lion hunting operation 1416 01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:03,840 Speaker 1: in in going to the next frontier of lion hunting. Well, 1417 01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:05,800 Speaker 1: I think we're probably in it here. I think there's 1418 01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:11,120 Speaker 1: probably more opportunity. Nothing prevents you from doing it. You 1419 01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,720 Speaker 1: can travel and go. But you think that, like but 1420 01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:16,040 Speaker 1: you feel like this is still like a good for 1421 01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:19,320 Speaker 1: now even it was like a good place to be 1422 01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:24,200 Speaker 1: a lion hunter. Yes, it's not nearly as as good 1423 01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:28,880 Speaker 1: as it was five years ago or even ten years ago. 1424 01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,120 Speaker 1: Somewhere in there we peeked out and it's been declining 1425 01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:36,000 Speaker 1: ever since. But it's, uh, it's one of the greatest 1426 01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:38,519 Speaker 1: places there is because here we you know it. It 1427 01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:43,519 Speaker 1: snows in the high country every year consistently, but there's 1428 01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:47,080 Speaker 1: always lots of wilderness areas and pockets that these lions 1429 01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,400 Speaker 1: can move out of that so you have a constant 1430 01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:55,920 Speaker 1: regeneration of most areas. And with that said, this year 1431 01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,040 Speaker 1: is the first time we've seen places where there's no 1432 01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:02,280 Speaker 1: lions in certain spots. And that's you know, concerning to 1433 01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:04,640 Speaker 1: everybody that likes to hunt lions here in Arizona right now, 1434 01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,360 Speaker 1: where do you attribute that too? I mean, in the 1435 01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:08,200 Speaker 1: last five years, is not like there's been like a 1436 01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:14,280 Speaker 1: great you know, influx of lion hunters. Well, there's been more. 1437 01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:17,519 Speaker 1: Is there a people have got you know, there's every 1438 01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:19,599 Speaker 1: day here's somebody that's a lion hunter that I've never 1439 01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:23,559 Speaker 1: met and never heard of, whereas years ago I kind 1440 01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:27,400 Speaker 1: of knew everybody that that did it very much. And 1441 01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:29,800 Speaker 1: the biggest thing that I think is a factor now 1442 01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:34,360 Speaker 1: is the mechanization. When people used to have to ride 1443 01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:37,280 Speaker 1: mules and that was the primary way to do it, 1444 01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,200 Speaker 1: it was limitedd is limiting, limiting in itself that just 1445 01:15:40,280 --> 01:15:42,680 Speaker 1: to have the livestocks, and not everybody did it. But 1446 01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:44,479 Speaker 1: now with the four wheelers, I see a lot of 1447 01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:47,960 Speaker 1: guys that wouldn't be affected normally that are very very 1448 01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,559 Speaker 1: effective because they'll drive on their fore wheelers. Still they 1449 01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:52,439 Speaker 1: find a track just like they were hunting in the snow, 1450 01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:56,080 Speaker 1: and then they'll track in the dust, right in the dust, 1451 01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:59,479 Speaker 1: and that and that seems to have really increase the 1452 01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,559 Speaker 1: harvest of lions. And with that said, our lion harvest 1453 01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:07,240 Speaker 1: has not changed significantly. The Arizona has harvested between two 1454 01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:11,360 Speaker 1: and three hundred lions for you know, well over a decade. 1455 01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:16,439 Speaker 1: So something else is going on, that's yeah. And I'm 1456 01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:18,240 Speaker 1: not like like you're we're talking about her like something 1457 01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:23,000 Speaker 1: with like like the like a cycle with the with prey, 1458 01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:25,160 Speaker 1: you know, and our dear bird has been in a 1459 01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:30,680 Speaker 1: decline for a decade anyway, maybe two decades, and possibly 1460 01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:33,200 Speaker 1: everything is just reaching that point where the predators are 1461 01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:38,080 Speaker 1: following it. Um, it's just really hard to say. And 1462 01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:40,000 Speaker 1: this is, you know, the first time I've ever felt 1463 01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:43,120 Speaker 1: like our lion numbers were low and and it's and 1464 01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:46,560 Speaker 1: it's not I don't think that much. There's much that 1465 01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:48,760 Speaker 1: could be done to change it one way or the other, 1466 01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:50,679 Speaker 1: if you want to increase it or decrease it more. 1467 01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:54,160 Speaker 1: It's just a natural thing and a natural peaks and 1468 01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:57,880 Speaker 1: valleys of wildlife. What's the next favorite food after deer 1469 01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:01,920 Speaker 1: for amount lion not counting to nasty have a lina 1470 01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:05,960 Speaker 1: here it's number two. Yeah, um, it'd probably go deer. 1471 01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:09,080 Speaker 1: Calves have a lina. Uh you know in the spring 1472 01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:11,200 Speaker 1: around here they can just be deadly on the cat. 1473 01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:13,360 Speaker 1: When we were out, we found were one and killed 1474 01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:16,719 Speaker 1: a fox, well fox and the deer and didn't didn't 1475 01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:18,880 Speaker 1: found a dead deer. Yeah, didn't we find a calf 1476 01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:22,080 Speaker 1: killer one than old calf killed remember that, remember I 1477 01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:24,599 Speaker 1: want and just like ripped the fox up and that's 1478 01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:27,680 Speaker 1: kind of where you saw her. They've eating tortoises or turtles, right, 1479 01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:33,280 Speaker 1: turtles towards happened to be riding along with Matt Pearsh 1480 01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:36,640 Speaker 1: was conducting the study in in the hark harkwehlers and 1481 01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:38,680 Speaker 1: harko bars at the time. We were actually in the 1482 01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,040 Speaker 1: Walpie Mountains and rode up for a lion and killed 1483 01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:44,120 Speaker 1: a desert tortoise and actually left a scratch right there by. 1484 01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:46,840 Speaker 1: It broke the shell off of a bit, you know, 1485 01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:48,719 Speaker 1: down on the bust of the shell, and then probably 1486 01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:51,360 Speaker 1: jerked the turtle out through the hole and then actually 1487 01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:53,880 Speaker 1: scratched just like he killed a deer and left that 1488 01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:58,519 Speaker 1: and what was crazy was he pulled meat. It was 1489 01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:01,360 Speaker 1: just just a shell there. And Matt actually still I'm 1490 01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:04,000 Speaker 1: sure he still has the shell. What was interesting was 1491 01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:07,320 Speaker 1: we were writing that day discussing the fact that a biologist, 1492 01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:09,920 Speaker 1: a lady by the name of Jenny Cashman, had She 1493 01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:11,720 Speaker 1: was with the U of A at the time, and 1494 01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:15,080 Speaker 1: she had just finished doing the fecal elexantera. They collected 1495 01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:17,679 Speaker 1: a bunch of scots up and they were finding tortoise 1496 01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:22,800 Speaker 1: feed in there, okah and there. And Matt had asked 1497 01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:24,559 Speaker 1: me and said, do you think they eat us? They 1498 01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:27,639 Speaker 1: eat everything else? Like what all have you seen when 1499 01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:29,719 Speaker 1: you're tracking? And what all have you seen that they've killed. 1500 01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,600 Speaker 1: I can't think of anything that lives in Arizona that 1501 01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:40,759 Speaker 1: I haven't seen that they've killed, badgers, skunks, man, bears, eagles, 1502 01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:46,840 Speaker 1: they were cubs, you know, young bears, um elk, lots 1503 01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:51,479 Speaker 1: of sheep, mostly dear everything. I just cannot think of 1504 01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:54,479 Speaker 1: a species. Antelope. We had one. It was last year 1505 01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:56,439 Speaker 1: or the year before. I killed an antelope right up here. 1506 01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:01,840 Speaker 1: My sonset point and uh, they just they I think 1507 01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:06,040 Speaker 1: they can kill anything they want to. They just matter 1508 01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:08,240 Speaker 1: whether they decided to do it or not. He said, 1509 01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:12,679 Speaker 1: you have killed the eagles. Yep, and that was on 1510 01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:15,559 Speaker 1: one of their kills. Oh he came down was because 1511 01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:17,800 Speaker 1: onder like, wow, he caught what the eagles doing with 1512 01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:20,360 Speaker 1: the eagles is eating something? It was in me somehow 1513 01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:23,080 Speaker 1: the lion. Of course they birds, you know, cats catch 1514 01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:26,840 Speaker 1: birds all the time. I guess the line, you know, 1515 01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:28,800 Speaker 1: it was probably laying right there when that eagle was 1516 01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:31,080 Speaker 1: eating on it and just took him out too. Did 1517 01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:33,439 Speaker 1: he eat the eagles eat the breast out of it? 1518 01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:38,680 Speaker 1: Remember looking at that when we rode up, thinking that 1519 01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:46,639 Speaker 1: I didn't want to get any credit for that at all. Burrows, burrows, 1520 01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,400 Speaker 1: they eat the wild burrows. Yeah, you don't see that 1521 01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:51,360 Speaker 1: very often, but they'll kill these wild burrows once in 1522 01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:55,760 Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, not enough of them, but none of them. 1523 01:19:56,120 --> 01:19:58,320 Speaker 1: As we train lines to kill burrows, we can solve 1524 01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:01,559 Speaker 1: a lot of problems turn those loose. Yeah, man, that's 1525 01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:04,800 Speaker 1: the whole issue. For a future conversation that would be 1526 01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:08,679 Speaker 1: I would love to have that conversation on the borough 1527 01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:11,800 Speaker 1: just about yeah, let's do about it. We need to 1528 01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:13,560 Speaker 1: not have it when Julie's around. If we're going to 1529 01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:18,160 Speaker 1: transfer it to the wild horse population. I just refuse 1530 01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:22,439 Speaker 1: to like, like, I don't like the argument of people 1531 01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:24,599 Speaker 1: who say they should be treated like a native animal 1532 01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:29,840 Speaker 1: because like somehow doing like the EO scene, they were 1533 01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:33,160 Speaker 1: here and then you know, like millions of years ago 1534 01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:37,360 Speaker 1: or that that because the Spanish brought them here, they 1535 01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:40,000 Speaker 1: should be treated as a native species. The Spanish brought pigs. 1536 01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:44,400 Speaker 1: They're fairal livestock the end of the day, they're faral livestock. 1537 01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:47,160 Speaker 1: And these horse lovers can make all the arguments they 1538 01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:50,479 Speaker 1: want to about that, but they're non native species in 1539 01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:52,960 Speaker 1: a fair and fairal livestock. And how we have the 1540 01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,200 Speaker 1: Wild Horse and Burrow Act boggles my mind and it 1541 01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:59,519 Speaker 1: is a you know, it's devastating the habitat. That's what 1542 01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:02,439 Speaker 1: I would think. I was thinking anytime you have a 1543 01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:10,599 Speaker 1: conflict between firal livestock in native wildlife, that that it's 1544 01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:15,800 Speaker 1: just I can't believe there's even a debate about which 1545 01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:18,680 Speaker 1: is gonna who's gonna take precedence. And even if you 1546 01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,120 Speaker 1: took the wildlife out of the scope of the damage 1547 01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:24,000 Speaker 1: that can be done through the overgrazing, the same people 1548 01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:26,639 Speaker 1: that want to run every cow off the land think 1549 01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:30,000 Speaker 1: it's okay, let the burrows and the horses destroy it. 1550 01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:37,280 Speaker 1: Next time, ladies and gentlemen, the Mediator Podcast, we're gonna 1551 01:21:37,320 --> 01:21:39,400 Speaker 1: take on the issue of wild burrow. You guys call 1552 01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:44,680 Speaker 1: them burrows. That's what the wild horse. We have burrows 1553 01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:47,760 Speaker 1: here too. Donkeys like full on wild donkeys, yea. And 1554 01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:49,720 Speaker 1: they're probably worse than the worst. Oh, I didn't know 1555 01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:54,920 Speaker 1: about that. How many of them roam Arizona in the thousands. 1556 01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:58,880 Speaker 1: They're really bad and desert sheep country because they'll just 1557 01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:01,720 Speaker 1: get into a water hole and just own it. They 1558 01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:04,240 Speaker 1: won't let anything come and drink. Those just hang out 1559 01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:07,200 Speaker 1: there for days, anything that comes into it. When you 1560 01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:09,640 Speaker 1: said that, that that is automatically thought you meant like mustangs. 1561 01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,400 Speaker 1: We we we have more horses here now than we 1562 01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:15,639 Speaker 1: ever did due to the big fires that we had 1563 01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:18,760 Speaker 1: a lot of domestic horses got loose and a lot 1564 01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:20,920 Speaker 1: and then we had the economic downturn. A lot of 1565 01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:24,479 Speaker 1: people turned horses loose here, you know. But also the 1566 01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,280 Speaker 1: shut the one to shut down the horse slaughter facilities, 1567 01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:30,080 Speaker 1: you know, cause love I remember I was talking to 1568 01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:33,559 Speaker 1: a stock detective. I wrote a story about livestock thefts 1569 01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:37,240 Speaker 1: some years ago, and one of the stock detectives was 1570 01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:42,800 Speaker 1: saying that there used to be a horse theft problem 1571 01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:45,800 Speaker 1: and now we have the opposite problem where people are 1572 01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:48,240 Speaker 1: always waking up to find horses they do not want 1573 01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:54,519 Speaker 1: inside their fence for instead of trying to go get 1574 01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:56,040 Speaker 1: a horse, you'reways trying to go get rid of a 1575 01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:59,600 Speaker 1: horse place to put them. All right, thank you for 1576 01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:04,880 Speaker 1: tune in. We will solve the wild horse wild burrow 1577 01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,760 Speaker 1: dilemma next time on The Meat Eater podcast