1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Okay, this is Paul Holes. Part 13 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: two of one of the most complicated, convoluted cases that 14 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: we've had to deal with, the case of the murders 15 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: of two prominent citizens in South Paris, Maine in nineteen 16 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: thirty seven, doctor James Littlefield and his wife Lydia. And 17 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: just to summarize for anybody who has dropped in on 18 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: this episode and hasn't heard part one, we are talking 19 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: about the murders of these two people who were found 20 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: in doctor Littlefield's car. And there's a young man, a 21 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: seventeen year old named Paul Dwyer who is asleep in 22 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: the front seat, and it is all a big mystery 23 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: to the police until we find out that Paul says 24 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: he was one of doctor Littlefield's patients and doctor Littlefield 25 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: came to his house in nineteen thirty seven for a 26 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: house call because Paul thought he had a sexually transmitted infection. 27 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Littlefield, upon this examination, made a disparaging remark about 28 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: Barbara Carroll, who is Paul's seventeen year old girlfriend. Paul 29 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: freaked out killed doctor Littlefield by what Paul says is 30 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: strangling him with his hands, beating him, and Doctor Littlefield 31 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: still wouldn't die, so Paul takes a belt, tightens it 32 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: and that's how he kills him. Then he drives Lydia 33 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: Littlefield all over New England for several days, giving her 34 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: some cockamamy story about her husband being involved in a 35 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: fatal traffic accident and he's kind of on the run 36 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: until they sort out what happens. And when she finally 37 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: catches on that Paul Dwyer has been lying to her, 38 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: he strangles her and that's how we end up in 39 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: the car at this time period where you and I 40 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: left off was that there was an anti mortem injury 41 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: to the scrotum. So anti mortem is different than post mortem, 42 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: and I just want to kind of be clear. Can 43 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: we talk a little bit about. 44 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 3: That, right? 45 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: So, well, anti mortem is before death and then post 46 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: mortem is after death, and there is a period of 47 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: time in which you can't determine when the injury occurred, 48 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 2: and so pathologists will just describe this as pery mortem. 49 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: It could be around the time of death, so there 50 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: aren't the characteristics present that would be definitive as to well, 51 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: was it while the person's still alive or after they're dead. Now, 52 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: when we start seeing the term anti mortem, what that 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: tells me is that that pathologist is seeing that that 54 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: injury is still bleeding at the time that it's inflicted. 55 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: The wound margins have blood, that art is now being 56 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: pushed through the circulation is still occurring. There's also a reaction. 57 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: The tissues are reacting to the injury. Just like when 58 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: we get you know, as we're still alive and you 59 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: get a scratch, you'll see it in flame. You know, 60 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: you have the tissue reacting. Now, part of the confusing 61 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: aspect and the reason why we have this Perry mortem 62 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: term is tissues will react even if the person's dead, 63 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: but the tissue itself hasn't died, but it's in the 64 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: process of dying. It's lost circulation, it's losing the nutrients 65 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: from the blood, the oxygen from the blood. But it 66 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: is still going to react when there is no circulation 67 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: and injury occurs, Let's say in a dismemberment where the 68 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 2: person has been dead for a period of time. This 69 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 2: is where a pathologist can look at these wound margins 70 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: and say, yes, this is definitively post mortem. Now, in 71 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: doctor Littlefield's case with the scrotal injury, if they're describing 72 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 2: it as antimortem, that would suggest that the pathologist is 73 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: noting that there was some bleeding that was occurring. This 74 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: does not mean that doctor Littlefield is necessarily conscious at 75 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: the time that this injury is being inflicted. It just 76 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: means that there is still circulation occurring. His tissue is 77 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: still reacting. I'm very interested in terms of, Okay, what 78 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 2: other details do we have about this, because now for 79 00:04:54,400 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: an offender to purposefully do genital mutilation, that is significant behavior. 80 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 2: One of the things that I think is interesting is 81 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 2: Paul is saying, you know, his original motive for killing 82 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: doctor Littlefield was pulling doctor Littlefield over because he's got 83 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 2: this sexually transmitted infection. 84 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 3: Yep. 85 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: And now you have doctor Littlefield's genitalia being mutilated. So 86 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 2: there's a sexual aspect in what's going on in this case, 87 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: at least on the surface. With what you've told me 88 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: right now, which is surprising at least from the details 89 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 2: that you provided at the beginning. I mean, this case 90 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 2: turned a little bit more interesting to me from a 91 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: behavioral standpoint. 92 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 1: Well, get ready, because there's another piece of information that 93 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: I found that I did not know over this past week. 94 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: This is why two parters are good, because things come 95 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: up and I can look at them and say, oh wait, 96 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: I did have a question about this. So the pathologist 97 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: in this report, the Attorney General report, said something that 98 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: I had not seen in the original research. Okay, so 99 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to read this to you because I think 100 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: it's important. Now, Remember Paul said the way things went was, 101 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, doctor Littlefield said something mean about Barbara Carroll. Paul, 102 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: you know, gets upset, He tries to strangle him with 103 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: his hands, he beats him. None of this kills doctor Littlefield, 104 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: until Paul gets his belt, puts it around his neck, 105 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: tightens it strangles him, and that's it. Richard Ford of 106 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: the Harvard School of Legal Medicine studied the case. Okay, 107 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: doctor Ford, so this is what he says he found. 108 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: He has expressed the opinion that missus Littlefield was alive 109 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: when the belt was placed around her neck, based on 110 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: the evidence of distinction and power, and that tallies with 111 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: what Paul says. He says she was trying to run, 112 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: I grabbed or I strangled her. In my opinion, doctor 113 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: Littlefield died of manual strangulation hours before the belt was 114 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: applied to his neck. Okay, that doesn't match what Paul said. 115 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: Paul said he was coming to he freaked out, He 116 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: put the belt around his neck, and that did the trick. 117 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,119 Speaker 1: But hours before. Do you think in this was written 118 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty two, would they have known that in 119 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two, had they been able to say that definitively? Oh? 120 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 3: I don't think they could say that definitively today. 121 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: Okay. 122 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of what doctor Ford would be 123 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: looking at in terms of giving some sort of temporal 124 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: information about when this belt had been applied to doctor 125 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: Littlefield's neck, there may be aspects that he's looking at 126 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: if the belt had been used at the time of death. 127 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: You know, of course you're going to see hemorrhaging. You know, 128 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: this is something where tissues next structures are being compressed, 129 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: especially if a ligature is being applied with a lot 130 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: of force. The next structures are being crushed with manual strangulation, 131 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: you know, you have a broader surface. You know, the 132 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: thumbs go in hyoid bone, which is kind of tucked 133 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: up underneath the jaw. The hyoid bone could be something 134 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: that is broken during manual strangulation, but canten be intact 135 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: during ligature strangulation since the ligature doesn't get up underneath 136 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: the jaw structure internally. 137 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: He said, because of the conditions of doctor Littlefield's neck 138 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: as described by the autopsy surgeon, they are in no 139 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: way ascribable to the application of a ligature, which is 140 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: I think what you're saying, right, it's just not the 141 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: right markings and the right injuries. 142 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, doctor Littlefield's neck that the tissues aren't reacting, 143 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: they're not hemorrhaging in the manner that would be expected 144 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: if it had just been done by a ligature, So 145 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: he's seeing evidence of the manual strangulation, and then it 146 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: appears that this ligature had just been applied at some 147 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: point after the manual strangulation. I just don't think. I 148 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: can't think of anything where a pathologist can say it 149 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: had to be minimally hours later. 150 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: Okay, so that doesn't prove or disprove Paul's claim of 151 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: when this actually happened. 152 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: In my mind, no, unless you know, a medical profest 153 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: at all were to convince me that yes, these are 154 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: the you know, this is the diagnostic features that they 155 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: could use in order to determine that belt was put 156 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: on hours later. Right now, I'm very skeptical about that opinion. 157 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: One other little clue is they found a lighter, just 158 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: a standard lighter in the yard, but no initials on it. 159 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: I was hoping for a little Agatha Christie moment, but 160 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: no initials on it. Just another little piece of evidence. 161 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: You know, they are not taking away a lot except 162 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: just lots of blood from Paul Dwyer's house. So let's 163 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: get into the changes that I alluded to during the 164 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: last episode. There's a journalist named Karen Limkey who described 165 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: Dwyer's testimony as having a Houdini quality because he just 166 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: kept changing things. Paul said that he was selling investigators. 167 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: You know, initially I didn't kill doctor Littlefield. Then he said, okay, 168 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: I killed him because he made a rude comment about 169 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: my girlfriend. Now he's saying that robbery is a motive. Again, 170 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: it comes down to to me, what do we believe 171 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: and do we need to believe what he says at 172 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: all if we're really looking at the evidence, and right now, 173 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: the evidence says it's just the two of them at 174 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: this house. The footprints with Littlefield, you know, there's blood 175 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: on Littlefield's feet, there's fingerprints only belonging really to these 176 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: two men involved in this case. But do we need 177 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: to really know the truth from Paul Dwyer at this point? 178 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 3: Well, you always need to know the truth. 179 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: Well, the motive. Do we care about the motive that much? 180 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 3: Well, motive? 181 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: People get too hung up on, well what was the motive? 182 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: You know, motive is nice if you have it, you know, 183 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: investigatively or for prosecution purposes, But oftentimes you don't know 184 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: the real motive why somebody commits a crime, And you 185 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 2: don't need to know there's nothing about having to prosecute 186 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: a case in which you have to prove motive. You 187 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: have to prove they committed the crime, you know. So 188 00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: at this point, Paul's offering his motive, you know why 189 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: he killed doctor Littlefield. I just still am questioning the 190 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: lack of injuries to Paul, considering you have this physical 191 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 2: fight with an adult man. So that's where I go 192 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 2: back to. I think that there's the chance that there's 193 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: multiple offenders here. Paul's giving a lot of detail where 194 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm thinking he's involved in this at this 195 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: point in time, but he's covering up for somebody, and 196 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: why is he covering up for that person? 197 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: Well, the press is very, very interested in motive, and 198 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: as we've talked about, it's nice to have, but the 199 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: press really wants it, and they think that the stuff 200 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: the prosecutor is putting out there is flimsy. It's a robbery, 201 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: it's this rude comment. The press doesn't believe it. The 202 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: prosecutor finally is I think, throwing spaghetti against the wall 203 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: and saying, listen, doctor Littlefield had access to all kinds 204 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: of drugs. Maybe Paul Dwyer is in the illegal drug 205 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: trade and that's why he killed him, to have access 206 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: to these drugs, even though it doesn't seem like there's 207 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: any evidence that these drugs were stolen. It was the money, 208 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty dollars in a watch and that 209 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: was it. But the mystery behind this case, it's driving 210 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: the press pretty crazy and none of that is helping 211 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: the trial. So when we go to trial, all of 212 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: this happened mid October of nineteen thirty seven, and he 213 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: goes to trial in December and he's found guilty of 214 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: both murders. Wow, sentenced to life in prison. Now, I mean, 215 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: if I'm a juror, I'm thinking, well, he confessed, he 216 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: signed a confession. When he went to trial, it was 217 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: ultimately I wanted to rob him, and that was really 218 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: what it came down to. So it seemed like maybe 219 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: Paul had just given up, but he didn't get the 220 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: death penalty, but he did get life in prison. So 221 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: what do you think about all that? 222 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 2: Well, you know, based on you know, the detail else 223 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: he's providing in his confession and at least there appears 224 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 2: to be overlap with the evidence in the case. 225 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: You know, I can. 226 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: Easily see where there would be a conviction, no question 227 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: about it. I just know, coming from my perspective and 228 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: evaluating the case. If I were investigating this case early on, 229 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: there's that red flag. As I mentioned the lack of 230 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: injuries to Paul, and I was like, Okay, there's something 231 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: else going on here, and I would feel obligated to 232 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 2: have to fill in that gap. 233 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: Okay, here's the gap. 234 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 3: Here we go. 235 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: Paul is sitting in Paul is in prison for a 236 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: month and either doesn't like prison or has been given 237 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: plenty of I'm sure he doesn't like prison, but has 238 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: been given plenty of time to think. And he says, 239 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: I need to change my story. And he implicates someone 240 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: who is witness character adjacent in this story. So we 241 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: have Barbara Carroll, and I was sort of teasing that 242 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: Barbara Carroll, the seventeen year old girlfriend of Paul, was involved. Somehow. 243 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: Paul says, I did not kill either one of these people. 244 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: The killer is a man named Francis. He's a deputy 245 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: sheriff and he is my girlfriend's father. Oh and that 246 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: changes everything because people believe him. 247 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: I can you know, I could speculate at first it 248 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: is Paul telling the truth right, the fact that Paul 249 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: is now bringing in another man as being involved. I'm 250 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: completely on board with that based on what's happening inside 251 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: that house and the lack of injuries to Paul. But 252 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 2: now it's okay, we have to dig into this, you know. 253 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: And if it is the girlfriend's father who happens to 254 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: be a cop, yep. Now it's why would this deputy 255 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: sheriff kill doctor Littlefield and his wife? What is the 256 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: motive for that? What is the opportunity for that for 257 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: that deputy sheriff. This is the hard part is there's 258 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: already a conviction in this case, so how motivated is 259 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: anybody going to be to pursue this avenue? Here's just 260 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: a convicted offender saying I didn't do it. Well, why 261 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: didn't he bring that up before? He's being prosecuted? 262 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: And now you're in a situation where you're accusing a 263 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: deputy sheriff of Francis Carroll of doing this. And what 264 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: you and I have talked about is your trepidation about 265 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: Paul because of the lack of injuries that it seems 266 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: like doctor Littlefield did his best to fight back and 267 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: there should be something And of course, now it's four 268 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: months later, it's too late. If Francis Carroll had any injuries, 269 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: that they're gone. Why he didn't say this earlier. So 270 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: let me tell you what Paul says happened. Actually, let's 271 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: do a little background on Francis Carroll real quick. He 272 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: was a deputy sheriff in Oxford County and he was 273 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: not well liked by anybody. His colleague said that he 274 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: was crooked, and he was corrupt, and he was not 275 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: very nice, and he had a bad marriage. And now 276 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: this seventeen year old kid, who everybody kind of thought, 277 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: this is weird. No one felt very comfortable with this conviction, 278 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: is trying to dependent on this deputy who has the 279 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: knowledge and apparently the meanness and anger to be able 280 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: to pull something like this off. But to the motive, 281 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: which we say it would be great to have, isn't 282 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: always necessary. But it's a doozy. Paul says, this is 283 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: what happened. He said that doctor Littlefield did come to 284 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: Paul's house. He did not come because Paul said I 285 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: might have an STI. He came because Paul said, my 286 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: girlfriend Barbara, who's seventeen, might be pregnant. Barbara's not there 287 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: for this conversation, her dad is and things take a 288 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: pretty bad turn because doctor Littlefield says, essentially, Paul, it 289 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: sounds like you got this girl in trouble, and Paul says, 290 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: not me. Barbara in letters told me that her father, 291 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: who was standing right here, was raping her. Oh, and 292 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: that's why she's pregnant. And now the injury on the 293 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: scrotum might also make sense in that scenario two and 294 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: everything else plays out the way Paul says, except Lydia, 295 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: that's a different story, you know. 296 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: In terms of Francis's response. You know, here he's got 297 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 2: now a doctor who he has to be concerned about 298 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: learning that he has been molesting his daughter and actually 299 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 2: impregnated her. I could see where he would eliminate doctor 300 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: Littlefield just to protect himself. Why doesn't he take out 301 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 2: Paul because Paul has knowledge of that. Yeah, so that'd 302 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: be you know, part of the question. And then of 303 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: course Lydia, you know, going after the doctor's wife, who's 304 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 2: not present for this conversation. But it's it's a starting 305 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: point in terms of Okay, we got to figure this out. Yeah, 306 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: you know, let's start talking to some people and seeing 307 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 2: where this goes. 308 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: The way Paul frames it is. You know, Paul discloses 309 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: this to doctor Littlefield while the men are there, and 310 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 1: doctor Littlefield reacts with disgust, of course, and confronts Francis 311 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: Carol about this. This is where everything comes in, the 312 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: beating and the strangulation and all of that. And then 313 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: what Paul says is that the deputy sheriff decided he 314 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: needed to eliminate the wife because the wife would be 315 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: alarmed also about all of this, and so Paul says, 316 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: Francis then dragged little Field out, just like Paul said 317 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: he himself did, put him in the trunk, drove over 318 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: and actually strangled Lydia at the house. There was no 319 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: cross New England trip. He just wanted to eliminate her 320 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: as someone who would sort of blow the whistle. And 321 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: then Paul said that Francis threatened him. He's seventeen, he's scared. 322 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: It's his potential future father in law. He's in love 323 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: with this girlfriend who's seventeen, and he said, I think 324 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: he was going to kill me too. But Paul promised 325 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: to dispose of the bodies in exchange for his life, 326 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: and that was that. That is what Paul said happened, 327 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: and of course Francis Carroll denies all of this. 328 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 3: Sure, but did they verify if Barbara was pregnant. 329 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: She was not pregnant, it doesn't seem but she did 330 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: sign an Affidavid saying he was raping me. And he 331 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: is immediately charged by his boss. Everybody believes it. He 332 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: denies it, but not convincingly. And then we could talk 333 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: about his alibi in a minute. But that part of it, 334 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: the part where you're thinking, is Paul making him into 335 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: this monster as a way to justify the antimortem scrotum 336 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: injury and all of this stuff. That part appears to 337 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:03,959 Speaker 1: be true. 338 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's aspects of this that I like in terms 339 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: of the totality of the case circumstances. There's enough meat 340 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 2: there in which it needs to be pursued, you know. 341 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 2: And do you have somebody who has been convicted of 342 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: two murders but really is an accessory? I mean, Paul 343 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 2: is not innocent, you know. Now the threat on his 344 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: life by Francis, of course, is something that is a 345 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 2: mitigating factor that a prosecutor would have to factor it 346 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 2: in terms of what kinds of charge. But you know, 347 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: at the same time, the circumstances are as Paul has 348 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,959 Speaker 2: been convicted, and so once that conviction happens, it takes 349 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: an act of God essentially in order to get. 350 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 3: Things to go the other way. You know. 351 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 2: So now there has to be such overwhelming evidence against 352 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: Francis as being the real killer for the courts to 353 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: be able to change things around and now undo the 354 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: conviction on Paul as well as now pursue Francis for 355 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: the murders. 356 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: Well, you can imagine this news makes headlines, stuns, everyone 357 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: devastates Barbara Carroll, who says, my father is a terrible person. 358 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: My father sexually assaulted me. My father I don't think 359 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: was a killer, for whatever that's worth. Of course, she 360 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: and Paul Dwyer had broken up at that point. This 361 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: sets off a political firestorm because when I say Francis 362 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: Carroll was not liked, I mean that is like bolded 363 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: three times. He was not liked. And so this seemed 364 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: like a good opportunity to go ahead and railroad this guy, 365 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: which I don't know if it's so much of a railroading. 366 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: The sheriff arrested him, as I mentioned, on what they 367 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: called incest charges. Then the sheriff launched his own investigation 368 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: into what happened when doctor Littlefield and Lydia disappeared. Where 369 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: was Francis Carroll and all this? I start looking at 370 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: his movements. Here's the alibi. Francis went to a card 371 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: game around the suspected time of doctor Littlefield's murder at 372 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: a friend's house. A bunch of people were there. But 373 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: at some point his friends say he got a call 374 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: about a traffic incident and that he left. He was 375 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: gone for a couple of hours, and he said, yeah, 376 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: I made an arrest. He entered an arrest in pencil 377 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: into his log, but then the record was erased by 378 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: the time this investigation into him happens. He has no 379 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: real alibi during this one or two hour, three hour period, 380 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: however long he claimed he was gone. The investigator said 381 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: he absolutely would have been able to do this in time, 382 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: so he doesn't really have a good alibi. 383 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 2: I really keyed in on that. He said, you know, 384 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: he got a call about a traffic accident. And remember 385 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 2: the scenario that Paul presented to Lydia was that doctor 386 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: Littlefield had involved in a traffic accident. You know, so 387 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: this is this is starting to add up to where 388 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: now you have this more mature, sophisticated deputy sheriff Francis, 389 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 2: and I could see where when now Paul is being 390 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: questioned the scenario about this doctor Littlefield killing two people 391 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 2: in a traffic accident is something that was fed to him. 392 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 3: By this deputy sheriff. 393 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: So Francis, it's it almost sounds like to me, with 394 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: just that little bit of detail, I'm going, oh, now 395 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 2: that's interesting. 396 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 3: Now it's consistent. 397 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 2: I'm starting to see some some linkage, if you will, 398 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 2: between what Francis is saying and what Paul had initially 399 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: said well before he ever came forward about France's involvement. 400 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: Now the flip side is is does Paul have a 401 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: motive of aside from wanting to get out of prison 402 00:23:54,040 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: To specifically point to Francis Carroll, Yes, he hated him. 403 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: He hated his girlfriend's father. Francis had tried to break 404 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: up Barbara and Paul's relationship. This is a thing that 405 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: is brought up. So there's that, And it doesn't sound 406 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 1: like anybody really liked Francis. He didn't have any allies 407 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: at this point. Now witnesses this is interesting. There are 408 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: multiple people who say that they saw Francis's late model 409 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: Chevrolet near Paul Dwyer's home on the night that doctor 410 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: Littlefield was killed. But there are other people who say 411 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: he wasn't anywhere near there, the car was somewhere else. 412 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: I know that guy's car, and multiple witnesses are accused 413 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: of fabricating these statements. Sounds unreliable to me. In a 414 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: late model Chevrolet, probably you could throw a rock and 415 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: hit one of those in nineteen thirty seven. 416 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's tough in terms of, you know, 417 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: really how much weight to put on those types of statements. 418 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: I guess I question in terms of, you know, Paul 419 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: calling doctor Littlefield over to his house, if he hated 420 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 2: Francis so much, why is Francis there? That seems odd 421 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: to me. 422 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: The journalists I had mentioned before, Karen Limke reported one 423 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: of the things that Francis's defense team said when he 424 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: finally did go to trial, and he did go to 425 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: trial for this for the murders, Francis's defense team said 426 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: that Paul's claims about the nature of this meeting is 427 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: completely absurd because Paul said that doctor Littlefield stopped by 428 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: to talk about Barbara's potential pregnancy. The defense team said 429 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: that would be highly unusual because Barbara wasn't even there. 430 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: She would have been the one to schedule to visit. 431 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: But making a house call to examine somebody with a 432 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: potential STI would not have been weird. And doctor Littlefield's 433 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: appointment books showed that he had a meeting with Paul, 434 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: not with Barbara. So I don't know, it's all confusing 435 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: in that way. I'm not sure when people say highly unusual, 436 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: highly unusual things happen all the time, So I don't know. 437 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: It could have been a ruth. 438 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is very odd. 439 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: I could see Paul requesting doctor Littlefield to come over 440 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: if he did have, you know, maybe some sort of 441 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 2: symptom of an STI, or maybe he wants to talk 442 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: to doctor Littlefield saying, well, Barber's pregnant, you know, and 443 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 2: then what what are our options? Because you know, obviously 444 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 2: this is a big deal. It's just how does Francis 445 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 2: get pulled into all the way over to Paul's house 446 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 2: for this particular meeting. But that right there is the 447 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 2: big mystery that it's just not sitting. 448 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 3: Right with me? 449 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? Not sitting right with you? Though? 450 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: Does that mean now you're leaning toward Paul lying about 451 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: all of this and trying to get out of prison. 452 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 2: Well, there's there's that always as a possibility, especially considering 453 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: Paul and Francis's relationship. But for me, it's more of 454 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 2: the details of that are suspect. There's something else going on. 455 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 2: I don't know what that is, but there's something else. 456 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 2: When you initially brought up Barbara pregnant and her father 457 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 2: killing doctor Littlefield, my thought was, as well, doctor Littlefield 458 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 2: must have been molesting Barbara and is the father of 459 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: her unborn baby, and that's why Francis killed doctor Littlefield. 460 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 2: That's where I initially went, you know. So is that 461 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 2: more in line and more consistent than what Paul is 462 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: saying happened. 463 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the pregnancy is very, very fuzzy. 464 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: I think I don't know if Paul thinks that it's 465 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: his baby or Francis Carroll's baby, and who makes the call. 466 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: Maybe he's trying to set up Francis Carroll. Maybe he 467 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: is pretending he has an STI. He's asking the doctor 468 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: to come over. He tells the doctor, the doctor confronts him, 469 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: and maybe he's hoping this finally will expose all of 470 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: this and things go horribly wrong. I don't know. 471 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 2: I do like this scenario that Francis is the killer, 472 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 2: the orchestrator, and that Paul Dwyer, you know, is well. 473 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: I think I mentioned in the first episode on this, 474 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: you know, the sort of the patsy, you know, he basically, 475 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: you know, just to save his own life, is negotiating 476 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 2: a deal saying I'll dispose of the bodies, you know, and. 477 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 3: You let me live. 478 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 2: That adds up, I think, with the evidence the best, 479 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 2: it's just it seems just so odd that these three men, 480 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 2: these three males, are in this house at the same time. 481 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: I just don't understand the reason for that. But maybe 482 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: it's just like what Paul saying, I needed to talk 483 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 2: to the doctor about Barbara being pregnant and Barbon the 484 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: father of her unborn child is her dad. 485 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: And what I thought was interesting, But I guess this 486 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: shouldn't surprise me. For nineteen thirty seven was that Paul's 487 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: proof of the rape between Francis, that Francis had raped 488 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: his daughter, was that Barbara had written Paul letters talking 489 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: about this, and I just thought, I don't know why 490 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: I thought that was strange, but also maybe this is 491 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: not something that they would have ever felt comfortable talking 492 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: about in this time period. And it also helps him 493 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: because he's got the letters. And then of course she 494 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: has confirmed this with the Attorney General's office, even though 495 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: Francis denies it. So yeah, it's really it's really hard, 496 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: and I will tell you this, Paul. This was a 497 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: first because Francis Carroll was convicted of killing doctor Littlefield, 498 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: but he was never put on trial for Lydia's death. 499 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: Paul Dwyer was in prison for both of their deaths, 500 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: and Francis was in prison only for James Littlefield's death. 501 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: The reporter I was talking about, Caroen lim Kee, says, 502 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: it's the only criminal case in Maine where two people 503 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: served concurrent sentences based upon verdicts from two separate trials. 504 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: So people couldn't decide which one of these guys did it, 505 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: so they put him both in jail for life. Neither 506 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: of them served life. They both got out, and yes 507 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: they were at the same prison. They were both at 508 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: the main state prison. I have no idea if they interact, 509 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: and I can't imagine that people would let that happen. 510 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: But so convicting two of them in totally separate with 511 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: separate motives, separate evident. I mean, it just seems like 512 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: wild And I know that this is still a case 513 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: that's debated today about who did it and who is 514 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: the most logical person. Do you believe a seventeen year 515 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: old could have done this with this cockamamy story that 516 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: he's talking about and then switching it so many times 517 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: and then finally pointing in at the man who he 518 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: can't stand because it sounds like he is raping his 519 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: own daughter. And Barbara Carroll is not really a big 520 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: player in this. She's not talking very much about all 521 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: of this, which I think is understandable. 522 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, did they ever you know, with you know, 523 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 2: Francis has to be showing up for work as a 524 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 2: deputy sheriff after these homicides. Did they talk to coworkers? 525 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 2: Did he show up? Did he have a black eye, 526 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: did he have scratches, any type of injury? And there 527 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 2: is there any information like. 528 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: That, nothing that people noted as being unusual and for 529 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: a deputy sheriff. He said he had made an arrest 530 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: the night before, so even if he did have something 531 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: on it, he could sayles Sen was in a scuffle, 532 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: but nobody remembered anything unusual. I think they would have 533 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: mentioned a black eye. I will say this. This goes 534 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: into the conspiracy against Francis Carroll part of the story. 535 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: So he filed an appeal, an immediate appeal in August 536 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: of nineteen thirty eight after he was convicted, and the 537 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: legal team claimed that the prosecutors were dead set on 538 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: convicting him and they suppressed important pieces of evidence during 539 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: the trial, the two sets of fingerprints, where basically Francis 540 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: Carroll says I wasn't there and my fingerprints aren't anywhere. 541 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: We've already kind of dispelled that, Yeah, I know, you 542 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of grimacing like that does it matter? So we're 543 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: going to throw that one out. So then this is 544 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: a weird one. There is a ballistics expert named Leon Shepherd, 545 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: and he comes forward and he says that the special 546 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: prosecutor had tried to shoehorn in questionable evidence into the record. 547 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: So the evidence in question was a grip mark on 548 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: Carroll's gun, which the prosecutor had tried desperately to match 549 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: the marks on doctor Littlefield's head. So instead of Paul's hammer, 550 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: it was the grip on this gun, and the ballistics 551 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: expert said, the prosecutor came to him, looked him in 552 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: the eye and said, quote, make the damned thing fit. 553 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: So this is not valuable evidence. This is more like 554 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: people were really gunning for Francis Carroll in nineteen thirty seven, 555 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight. 556 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 3: That's where. 557 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: Now, when you start talking about Mars from an impact 558 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 2: of a weapon on the skin, you know, it depends 559 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 2: on what details are present. You know, sometimes you can 560 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: have highly detailed marks left behind and which you can 561 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 2: physically match to an object. But if the prosecutor is 562 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: having to tell this expert make it fit, that tells 563 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: me it's probably some vague mark that is not obvious. 564 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. How often do killers who are paired together? How 565 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: often do we find that? I mean, as someone who's 566 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: a profiler also, that just seems unusual. Is it as 567 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: unusual as we think it is that two people could 568 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: work together and stay quiet and all of that. 569 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: It quite frankly is common. You think about gangs, you 570 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: have multiple people who are involved in shootings all the time. 571 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 2: In this type of case, this is where you have 572 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 2: at least presuming Francis and Paul were both involved. That 573 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 2: you have a dominant leader type and then you have 574 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: the follower, the leader being Francis, the follower being Paul, 575 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: and that happens, and it does happen all the time, 576 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 2: and so it's not uncommon for multiple individuals to be arrested, charged, 577 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: and convicted for their roles in these types of cases. 578 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 2: We're dealing with the nineteen thirties because you know, now 579 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 2: today we've talked about, you know, Francis his alibi or 580 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 2: lack of alibi, and motive and everything else. But if 581 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 2: there is the possibility of that close physical interaction with 582 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 2: doctor Littlefield and Lydia Littlefield, you know, this is where 583 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: if Francis is completely denying anything, if we go after 584 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 2: the blood evidence, the DNA evidence, and find it on 585 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 2: his clothing, inside his vehicle, something that we could you know, 586 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: show hold on. You know, we have a link to 587 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: the violence that happened that night. Today we could do 588 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 2: something to help prove his involvement. But back in the 589 00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 2: nineteen thirties they didn't have that. 590 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: And why is Paul not saying this sooner? He can't 591 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: be more afraid of Francis Carroll than of going to 592 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: prison for the rest of his life, all this media. 593 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. That's another thing I'm questioning. 594 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: I believe it's possibly. You know, he's a naive seventeen 595 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 2: year old. Prior to the conviction and prior to being incarcerated, 596 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 2: he's in fear of Francis. Yeah, you know, Francis's law enforcement. 597 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 2: You know, could Francis reach out and get him at 598 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 2: any point, you know, But once he's in prison and 599 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 2: he's seeing this is for the rest of my life. 600 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 2: There's no way that Francis can come after me in here. 601 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 2: Now it's safe for me to divulge what truly happened. 602 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 2: I think there is a possibility of that kind of 603 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 2: shift in mindset. 604 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 3: You know. 605 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: I'm frustrated that he didn't bring that up earlier, you know, 606 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 2: because he probably would have had less serious consequences for 607 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: his role. If he's not killing doctor Littlefield, if he's 608 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 2: not the one that killed Lydia and Francis Is, then 609 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: his role is as an accessory and he would have 610 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: faced lesser charges or possibly could have pled to provide 611 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 2: testimony against Francis and never even be charged with a crime. 612 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Hold on, I'm going to show you a photo 613 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: just so you can put faces to names. There's a 614 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: Francis on the right and Barbara Carroll on the left. Okay, 615 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: And part of the controversy around this case that we 616 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: didn't get into because I just don't think it's applicable 617 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: is the claims from the media that Barbara Carroll was 618 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: really courting the media. She got a lot of marriage 619 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: proposals during this whole trial, she was under a lot 620 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: of scrutiny. And then you know, we see Francis Carroll 621 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: who's denying all of this, but he's an older man. 622 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: All of these characters are incredibly confusing. Barbara clearly is 623 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: a victim, but the media were not as sympathetic as 624 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: they should have been considering the seriousness of the accusations 625 00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 1: against her father. That people working. 626 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 3: Was he convicted of the sexual assault of his daughter. 627 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: No, so let me tell you the end of the story. 628 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: Because they were concentrating on convicting him for a murder, 629 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: they did not pursue anything sexual assault charges or the 630 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 1: ones that they called incest charges that I told you before. 631 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: So what ended up happening is that Francis Carrol spent 632 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: a decade in prison until nineteen forty nine, when the 633 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: Governor of Maine exonerated him and said there's not enough 634 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: evidence for Francis Carroll to be in prison. And by 635 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: that time, the statute of limitations for rape had long passed. 636 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,760 Speaker 1: So he's never indicted for sexually assaulting Barbara and never 637 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: tried for Lydia's murder, and he died just you know, 638 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: a few years, seven years after his release at the 639 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: age of sixty, so he never has to face anything 640 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: about sexually assaulting his daughter. 641 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 2: Okay, I think during that era, you know, really, you know, 642 00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,479 Speaker 2: we've seen improvements in terms of how the justices goes 643 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,919 Speaker 2: after this type of scenario, you know, where you have 644 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 2: children who are being abused, whether it be by strangers 645 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 2: or by you know, parents, much more serious charges are 646 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 2: levied and much more serious time, much longer times are 647 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 2: being served. But back in the nineteen thirties, I could 648 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 2: see where the mindset is as well, she'll get over it, 649 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 2: you know, that's kind of you know, I think the 650 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 2: mindset from that era. I really like the scenario of 651 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 2: Francis and Paul being involved together in this double homicide, 652 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 2: but it does seem like with the evidence that they 653 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 2: had circumstantial physical against Francis. It's flimsy, you know, So 654 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 2: I really don't have an issue. I probably have a 655 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 2: bigger issue with the conviction to be frank even though 656 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 2: I'm kind of leaning towards you. It sounds like that's likely. 657 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 2: It's just that they didn't establish the case to the 658 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 2: point to where it's beyond a reasonable doubt, and so 659 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 2: for the governor to come in an exonerate I don't 660 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 2: have an issue with that, you know. And this is 661 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 2: just where Francis in some ways his name was probably 662 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 2: wrongly cleared, in my opinion, but at the same time, 663 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 2: it was never proven that he was truly responsible. 664 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: From a legal standpoint, You're right, he should have been exonerated. 665 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: From a moral standpoint, I am definitely leaning toward Francis 666 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: being involved. It's hard because Paul's hair brain story about everything. 667 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: What if it was a ruse. What if this kid 668 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 1: is smart and he figured out how to play the 669 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: bumbling dumb kid who makes up all of these wild stories, 670 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: thinking that people are going to feel sorry for him, 671 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: And what if he really did figure out how to 672 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: take the attention off of him. Because there's that doubt 673 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,439 Speaker 1: he's convicted, it would be hard not to convict him. 674 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: He's convicted, there's that doubt, and then he turns it 675 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: in on the guy he hates the most. I just 676 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: wonder if there's any possibility, because God, there's so much 677 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: detail in these stupid stories of his. 678 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 2: And that's where the detail. As we were talking, it's 679 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 2: constantly weighing the details that he provides against the actual factual, 680 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 2: objective evidence that they find at autopsy and find at 681 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 2: the crime scene. And there's no question in my mind, Okay, 682 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 2: he's got direct knowledge. Oftentimes, when there's false confessions, the 683 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 2: details and the false confessions in no way, shape or 684 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,439 Speaker 2: form match up with the objective, factual evidence of the case. 685 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 2: You know, And unfortunately you have individuals who do these 686 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 2: false confessions get convicted because you don't have investigators or 687 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 2: prosecutors who have the wherewithal in order to sort out 688 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 2: the details. You know, is this real or not. There's 689 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 2: that on one hand in terms of yeah, Paul is 690 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 2: culpable for you know, a role in this double homicide. 691 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 2: I still just go back to the lack of injuries. 692 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 2: Where As I was saying, even before you brought up 693 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 2: from answers, there's somebody else involved. I think some of 694 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 2: these cocamene scenarios that were concocted likely were fed to Paul, 695 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 2: or they were brainstormed between Francis and Paul in order 696 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 2: to try to get their stories straight, you know, as 697 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 2: they were getting the process of trying to hide. I mean, 698 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,720 Speaker 2: there's no question he's on a mission to hide the bodies. 699 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 2: They're trying to cover up this crime. 700 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:24,479 Speaker 1: Yep. 701 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 3: Did Paul serve the rest of his life for this 702 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:27,800 Speaker 3: or was he released? 703 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: So he was convicted in December of thirty seven, he 704 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: was released twenty two years later. He was released in 705 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine. He was forty and he got out 706 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: on parole. So, according to the asssiated press, Paul Dwyer 707 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: got married, then he got divorced, and then he eventually 708 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: he stayed in Maine. He settled in Portland, Maine. And 709 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of information after that about this. 710 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: But there are people who cannot sort this out. Even 711 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: today people talk about it. They cannot sort out who 712 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: is guilty and who isn't. And to have both of 713 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: them convicted for the same crime but completely different circumstances. 714 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: What a mess of a story. There's so much happening 715 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: in it, and as always, you know, I think more 716 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: details are better, but I think we have enough of 717 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: a sense of who our main suspects are and who's 718 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: capable of doing it. And I'm just not buying Paul 719 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: Dwyer being able to do this. I don't know. I 720 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: don't know. 721 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 2: I lean against him being responsible for either homicide if 722 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 2: they still have physical evidence in this case, which is doubtful, 723 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 2: but you know, one of the key pieces of evidence 724 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,280 Speaker 2: is going to be the belt around Lydia's neck. Yeah, 725 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 2: you know, and if they still have that, there's a 726 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 2: chance that the killer's DNA is on that belt. It 727 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 2: could be sorted out today. The belt around Littlefield's neck 728 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 2: was not the murder weapon in that case. So this 729 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 2: is where now I go to the belt around Lydia 730 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 2: because that definitively was used to strangle her. At whose 731 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 2: DNA is on that belt? And then maybe we could 732 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 2: sort that out, you know, because Paul being paroled at 733 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 2: age forty, if he was just an accessory and literally 734 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 2: was disposing the bodies and then lying about it, I 735 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 2: don't have a problem with him being parrolled. But if 736 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 2: he's the one that strangled lydia. Then in my opinion, 737 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,720 Speaker 2: he needs to serve the rest of his life in prison. 738 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,439 Speaker 2: And he didn't, you know, and they just didn't have 739 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,439 Speaker 2: the tools in order to sort that out. 740 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: Back then there you go, another messy case with no 741 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,959 Speaker 1: clear ending. You're welcome, Paul, holes, I know those are 742 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: those are your favorite, the ones we cannot solve definitively, 743 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 1: you know, I think, just to end this on a note, 744 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: that's another era of mystery. You remember, this whole thing 745 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: between you and I started with Bessie Ferguson on Wicked Words, 746 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: where we talked about Bessie Ferguson, Right, so I'll remind 747 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 1: you all. Bessie Ferguson was a woman in nineteen twenty 748 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: five who was murdered and dismembered and her body part 749 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: were strown everywhere, and my forensic scientist from American Sherlock 750 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: determined where her body parts were based on a grain 751 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: of sand that was found in her ear, which was 752 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: the only thing that he was given was her ear. 753 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: And I remember we talked about all of the suspects, Paul, 754 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 1: You and I talked about you know, like there's a 755 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 1: dentist and there's a doctor and she was extorting money 756 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: from men for babies that never existed. I mean, it 757 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,400 Speaker 1: was a whole complicated thing. And then there was a sheriff, 758 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: actually he was a deputy sheriff, and I said that 759 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: my guy, Heinrich Oscar Heinrich said, that guy's an idiot. 760 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: He's not smart enough. Sheriff is not smart enough. I 761 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: promise you he cannot pull this off, this remembering a 762 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: body and you know, putting it all over this part 763 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 1: of California. And I remember you said, but the sheriff 764 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: knows people who are smart enough to do it right. 765 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: And so when this deputy sheriff thing came up, I 766 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,759 Speaker 1: kept thinking, oh boy, yeah, that's a interesting thing. You know. 767 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,839 Speaker 1: The knowledge, the institutional knowledge. We should never ever discard 768 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: that because there's a lot of knowledge there that Francis 769 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: Carol could have. 770 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 2: And the reality is, is Paul's big mistake as he 771 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 2: fell asleep with two bodies in the car. If he 772 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,319 Speaker 2: hadn't fallen asleep and had carried out his mission, it's 773 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 2: possible doctor Littlefield and Lydia would have just disappeared. Yeah, 774 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 2: and Paul and Francis would never have served time. So 775 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 2: that's that's what happens when you trust a teenage boy 776 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 2: to do something bad. 777 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 1: Sorry, teenage boys listening to the show. Okay, well, I'll 778 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 1: have another compelling, complicated, probably even messy your case next week. 779 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 2: So get ready, oh boy, okay, I will get my 780 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 2: fish tank cleaned up, and I will look forward to 781 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,839 Speaker 2: watching them as you traumatize me even more. 782 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: Get that lobster in a safe spot. Please. This has 783 00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. 784 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 2: Sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash 785 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 2: Buried Bones sources. 786 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 787 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 788 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 789 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,239 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 790 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 791 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer. 792 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 793 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod. 794 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,840 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 795 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 796 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now. 797 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked. My Life Solving America's 798 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now