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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Locks Podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Allaway.

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Speaker 1: Tracy, you know what topic we'd never really talk about

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Speaker 1: or really do. It's like we never really do anything

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Speaker 1: related like personal finance, person.

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Speaker 2: Like what to actually do with all the information that

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Speaker 2: we talk about on a bi weekly basis. Yeah, what

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Speaker 2: it means for making money.

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Speaker 1: It's like a huge part of like financial media. But

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, I like to usually like what's

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Speaker 1: going to happen with the quantitative titaning.

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Speaker 2: It's a tough one because I feel like you can

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Speaker 2: talk about it generally, but also there's the temptation a

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Speaker 2: lot of people end up doing this to give specific recommendations.

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Speaker 1: Right like get this credit card, Tesla, or yeah, either

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Speaker 1: buy this dock, get this credit card, don't buy avocado

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Speaker 1: toast like all this stuff, or like you know, move

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Speaker 1: your money. But like it's kind of like cliche topic.

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Speaker 1: But like, on the other hand, I do think it's

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Speaker 1: interesting right now because we've just had this like a

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Speaker 1: sort of extraordinary like three years of like inflation, which

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Speaker 1: many people have never really experienced in their lives, And

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Speaker 1: so to my mind, that raises some interesting questions like

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Speaker 1: how is this going to like change people's behavior and

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Speaker 1: what should what have people done in the past during

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Speaker 1: periods of inflation? Like there are really interesting sort of

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Speaker 1: like personal finance, spending investing questions that like will come

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Speaker 1: out of this era well.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and also the prospect of just finally actually earning

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Speaker 2: some interest on a basic savings account. I know it's

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Speaker 2: still below the level of inflation, but for people who've

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Speaker 2: been earning zero percent for most of their professional lives,

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Speaker 2: I think it's very.

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Speaker 1: I think now it's kind of positive, right because you

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Speaker 1: could play five percent in the CD and maybe inflation

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Speaker 1: we three gonna have, right, you know. I asked my

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Speaker 1: dad recently about his memory of the nineteen seventies. I

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Speaker 1: was like, what was that like? You know, the first

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Speaker 1: thing he said was like I could really get a

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Speaker 1: lot of money out of bank account day.

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Speaker 2: Oh, there we go.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, there's all kinds of interesting things about

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Speaker 1: like how people actually deal.

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Speaker 2: With right and also what happens when we have a

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Speaker 2: sort of regime change and how do people react to

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Speaker 2: it and how much have things actually changed?

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, and we've been talking about some you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the real estate episodes. Yeah, like how much

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Speaker 1: people like anchored to the ZIP era. They're like, you know,

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Speaker 1: as if like that was normal. Yeah, so it's like

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Speaker 1: when have people adjusted? Is there still a big adjustment

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Speaker 1: left to go? Like, there's just some really interesting questions. Absolutely, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well I think we should talk about them. And we

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Speaker 1: really do have the perfect guest. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: speaking with Morgan Household, longtime writer, the author of the

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Speaker 1: best selling book The Psychology of Money is More books

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Speaker 1: coming out hugely popular in this area. Morgan, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for coming on Outlass.

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Speaker 3: Well, Joe and Tracy happy to be here, Thanks for

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Speaker 3: having me.

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Speaker 1: Can I just say, all right, I'm gonna just say

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Speaker 1: something just to let's set this scene a little bit,

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Speaker 1: like I said in the beginning of the conversation, like

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Speaker 1: personal finances a genre. It's this little hackney, this kind.

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Speaker 2: Of cliche, but Morgan does it well.

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Speaker 1: Years ago, like twenty eleven, twenty twelve, I was a

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Speaker 1: business insider Morgan was it the Motley Fool? And I

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Speaker 1: said to my former colleague at BI Sam Row, Morgan

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Speaker 1: is the first personal finance writer that I like. And

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Speaker 1: now here's this huge.

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Speaker 2: That's high praise. High praise from that means I was.

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Speaker 1: I just want to say I was long Morgan Household

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Speaker 1: very early on.

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 3: I was long Joe during that period as well as well.

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Speaker 3: So this is this is open up to Since then,

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Speaker 3: I've always I feel like I've always done the same

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Speaker 3: thing since two thousand and eight when I started this,

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Speaker 3: which was you know you mentioned most personal finance writing

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Speaker 3: kind of falls into two buckets. It's either here's the

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Speaker 3: credit card you should you should use, or here's the

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Speaker 3: hot stock you should buy. The credit card part, you know,

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Speaker 3: I was never just I was never that interested in it,

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Speaker 3: and the here's the stock you should buy always felt

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Speaker 3: almost immoral to me because you don't know who's reading

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Speaker 3: your stuff. Is this an eighteen year old day trader

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Speaker 3: or a ninet year old widow? Like who are you

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Speaker 3: recommending this to? So because of that, I always I

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Speaker 3: just kind of naturally fell into this bucket of like

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Speaker 3: what's going through people's heads. I don't want to give

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Speaker 3: anybody advice. I don't want to tell anybody what to

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Speaker 3: do because I don't know you, but I'm really curious

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Speaker 3: what's going on inside your head. Particularly I started as

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Speaker 3: a writer in two thousand and eight, so the world

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Speaker 3: was falling to pieces, and it was just this idea

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Speaker 3: of like, well, what the heck just happened here? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And I think once I kind of realized that you

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Speaker 3: could not explain two thousand and eight through the lens

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Speaker 3: of a finance or an economics textbook. It's just not

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Speaker 3: in there to explain the bubble, the bus, the bailouts,

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Speaker 3: not an economics textbook. But psychology had a lot to

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Speaker 3: say about it. Sociology like keeping up the Joneses that

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Speaker 3: perfectly explained the housing bubble. So there are all these

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Speaker 3: other fields outside of finance that filled in the gaps.

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Speaker 3: So that to me was like, ah, I'm just really

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Speaker 3: interested in how you can connect psychology and sociology and

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Speaker 3: political science to try to explain what people are thinking

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Speaker 3: rather than what they should do. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Both Joe and I we sort of started our financial

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Speaker 2: journalism careers around two thousand and eight, and it was

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Speaker 2: a great time to do it because you're sort of

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Speaker 2: on the same level as everyone else. No one knew

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Speaker 2: really what was going on, but talk to us a

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Speaker 2: little bit more than about your approach. How does taking

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Speaker 2: that sociological or psychological angle actually inform the way you

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Speaker 2: think about personal finance investing.

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Speaker 3: We let's say there's two elements to this. One is

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Speaker 3: I'm a writer, and then the other is I'm interested

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Speaker 3: in behavioral finance, and you really have to mix both

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Speaker 3: of those because in writing, particularly as a finance writer,

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Speaker 3: if you're just writing about data and charts, like a

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Speaker 3: lot of people, even in the industry, it's like it's boring,

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Speaker 3: You're not going to catch you. So you got to

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Speaker 3: tell a good story. And so I'm always trying to

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Speaker 3: find examples from fields that have nothing to do with

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Speaker 3: finance that explain how people think about greed and fear

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Speaker 3: and risk, because not only do I think that gets

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Speaker 3: you closer to the truth of what's happening in finance,

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Speaker 3: if you can really get like, why are people thinking

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Speaker 3: the way they are? But from a writing standpoint, I

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Speaker 3: think it's more interesting if you can be like, oh,

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Speaker 3: here's a story from World War two that explains how

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Speaker 3: people think about risk, and let me tell you how

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Speaker 3: that bleeds into finance. I think it's more interesting as

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Speaker 3: a writer to catch people's attention that way.

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Speaker 2: So we're recording this at an event in Huntington Beach

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Speaker 2: at Future Proof isn't one of your most famous stories

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Speaker 2: about parking cars in Los Angeles at one point being

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Speaker 2: a valet.

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Speaker 3: So yes, it was a hotel here in Los Angeles

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Speaker 3: that I was a valet at during college, and it

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Speaker 3: was a high end, five star hotel, a lot of

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Speaker 3: rich people coming through, and there was one member who

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Speaker 3: was just an absolute animal with money. He was very,

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Speaker 3: very wealthy. I think he was worth hundreds of millions

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Speaker 3: of dollars and money has never burnt a hole in

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Speaker 3: someone's pocket so fast. He wandered around, he was he

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Speaker 3: was always drunk, and he wandered around with a stack

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Speaker 3: one hundred dollar bills I swear six inches thick, and

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Speaker 3: he would just flash money like no other. And we

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Speaker 3: did a lot of errands for this guy. As a

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Speaker 3: vala tipped very well. And one day he came to

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Speaker 3: one of my colleagues and he peeled off a thick

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Speaker 3: stack of one hundred dollars bills and he said, go

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Speaker 3: down to the jewelry store down the street and buy

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Speaker 3: me some gold coins. I think there were a thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars gold coins. And he came back any gold courts

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Speaker 3: and this guy with a group of friends sat there

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Speaker 3: at the Pacific Ocean skipping a gold coins to see

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Speaker 3: how far they could go. Oh my god, And I

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Speaker 3: remember thinking I was twenty one at the time, and

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Speaker 3: I remember watching this and thinking like, how long can

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Speaker 3: this last? And it was probably ten years later that

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Speaker 3: I said, what's this guy up to? And I googled

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Speaker 3: his name and sure enough, he went bankrupt. He went,

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Speaker 3: his company went out of business. He went, And it

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Speaker 3: was like, when I saw the headline, he was like,

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Speaker 3: of course, of course this guy. So to me, it

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Speaker 3: was always so interesting that he was so smart. He

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Speaker 3: was an entrepreneur who made a lot of his companies

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Speaker 3: built parts for satellites, and he had a patent that's

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Speaker 3: in every Wi Fi device, Like he was such a

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Speaker 3: genius technically, but his relationship with money was so broken

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Speaker 3: and so bad. So that was like, it doesn't matter

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Speaker 3: how smart you are, it's not about like what your

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Speaker 3: IQ is. If your behavior with money is wrong, you're done.

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Speaker 3: It's out. And then there's a flip side of that.

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Speaker 3: It's true too, which is that some people who are

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Speaker 3: not that intelligent by their test scores or whatever, but

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Speaker 3: they have a great behavior with money can do spectacular

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Speaker 3: over time.

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Speaker 2: I'm probably taking the wrong lesson away from this anecdote,

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Speaker 2: but did anyone go after the coins?

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Speaker 3: For all I know?

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Speaker 1: They're still there all right later today, Joe, this is

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Speaker 1: this is this is good to know. So this is

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously there are going to be individuals who

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Speaker 1: maybe don't have high income but or do a good

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Speaker 1: job of accumulating savings over years, or people of massive

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Speaker 1: incomes that blow it all kinds of things. You know,

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Speaker 1: you always hear these other stories about the cohorts and

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Speaker 1: people who went through something together, like people who came

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Speaker 1: out of the Great Depression and then they like you know,

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Speaker 1: were like hoarders or something like that, or people who

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Speaker 1: came out of whatever it is. Is that true? People

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Speaker 1: say that all the time, or people experience like the

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Speaker 1: inflation in Wymar Germany and support like when you in

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Speaker 1: your research when you read take It, you read a

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Speaker 1: ton of history, like does that seem to be a

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Speaker 1: real thing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. I think every generation experiences the economy in

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Speaker 3: their own unique way, and those experiences, particularly what you

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Speaker 3: experience in your teens and twenties, like your formative years

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Speaker 3: where you're starting to pay it attention to the economy

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Speaker 3: really sticks with you. Everyone is seen or probably heard

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Speaker 3: of the studies about the generation that went through the

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Speaker 3: Great Depression, and then right after that it was World

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Speaker 3: War Two. So that was fifteen years of hell, and

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Speaker 3: those people coming out of it like that stayed with

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Speaker 3: them forever, and there's been academics who have measured how

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Speaker 3: that impacted them. They're very scared of debt, didn't want

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Speaker 3: to invest in the stock market way more so even

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Speaker 3: when you talk about people in warmer Germany, or that

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Speaker 3: people went through World War Two in Germany or in

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Speaker 3: France or in Russia, those people were completely scarred economically

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Speaker 3: for the rest of their lives. And more recently, all

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Speaker 3: three of us became young adults in the early two thousands,

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Speaker 3: So for me nine to eleven was the first like

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Speaker 3: adult big event and then so that was massive, and

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Speaker 3: I think for our parents' generation, who were adults in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties, when things were so at least in

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Speaker 3: relative terms, calm, stable, prosperous, not just economically but politically

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Speaker 3: and geopolitically, we're like so solid and there was a

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Speaker 3: recession or you know, there's a hiccup at ninety four

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Speaker 3: and ninety eight, but for most people that was like

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Speaker 3: unless you were a bond trader, didn't matter. The nineties

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Speaker 3: were great. Nine to eleven was like, oh wow, like

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Speaker 3: we really got knocked down here, but that was a

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Speaker 3: one time event, like America is still as strong as

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Speaker 3: it's ever been. And then in two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 3: I was like, wow, we got knocked down again, like

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Speaker 3: two times in the last eight years. That's pretty bad.

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Speaker 3: And then COVID twenty twenty, it's like the world broke again,

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Speaker 3: like three times in twenty years. The world has broken

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Speaker 3: in the United States, and I think that is like,

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Speaker 3: what's the quote, fool me wants shame on you for

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Speaker 3: me twice. Now that people have been fooled, so to speak,

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Speaker 3: three times in twenty years, I think we now our

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Speaker 3: generation believes that the world breaks every five to ten years,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's a good I think that's the truth.

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Speaker 3: I think the previous generation that was America strong and

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Speaker 3: stable and nothing bad happens, that was the anomaly, and

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Speaker 3: I think I think we're a more pessimistic generation because

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Speaker 3: of it.

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Speaker 1: So I was kind of going to go into that,

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Speaker 1: you know, the one thing that I've been really fastened

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Speaker 1: by over the last few years is what sort of

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Speaker 1: strikes me, and particularly in like market it's an investing

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Speaker 1: is this sort of like I almost call it like

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Speaker 1: a sort of like nihilistic bullishness, like you saw it

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Speaker 1: like buying NFTs or duage coin or whatever, where it's like,

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Speaker 1: on some level it looks like optimistic speculative activity like

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Speaker 1: maybe we saw in the late nineties, but it also

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Speaker 1: has this sort of like edge of like none of

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Speaker 1: this really means anything.

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Speaker 2: You're knowingly chasing a bubble or buying a lottery because

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Speaker 2: there's no other way to make money for the.

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Speaker 1: Wall Street bets like bragging about going broken your robin

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Speaker 1: hood thing. Like it seems like we're in this era

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Speaker 1: of like speculation but not coming out of a place

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Speaker 1: of optimism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I almost think like the yolo mentality of trading

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Speaker 3: NFTs or whatever it may be, is actually like comes

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Speaker 3: from a very pessimistic place. If you're optimistic, then you're like,

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Speaker 3: I want to own the S and P five hundred for

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Speaker 3: the next fifty years. That's optimism. Pessimism is it's all

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Speaker 3: going to go to hell anyways, Let's just throw it

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Speaker 3: all on an NFT yeah, so it looks from the

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Speaker 3: outset like a very like bullish, Like I'm so bullish

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Speaker 3: on crypto. I know. I think it comes from a

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Speaker 3: pessimistic place. You made this point years ago that stuck

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Speaker 3: with me during the gold bubble, if we call it

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Speaker 3: that around twenty eleven, that there's nothing more pessimistic than

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Speaker 3: betting on a rock. It's like, if you're optimistic, you

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Speaker 3: bet on people. And how pessimistic do you have to

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Speaker 3: be to say a rock is going to outperform humans?

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Speaker 3: It's like the most pessimistic thing. And I think there's

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Speaker 3: a very like there's an analogy in there with NFTs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Wait, I take the point about people being pessimistic about

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Speaker 2: these big sort of sociological breaks breaks in society. But

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Speaker 2: if you look at the legacy of the two thousand

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Speaker 2: and eight financial crisis, it wasn't necessarily a terrible time

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Speaker 2: to start accumulating wealth and money. You know, if you

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Speaker 2: bought the S and P five hundred in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and nine, right up until twenty twenty, you'd be doing

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Speaker 2: reasonably well. Like, what do you think the legacy is

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Speaker 2: of that particular era where we're still sifting through the

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Speaker 2: wreckage of two thousand and eight, we have ultra low

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Speaker 2: interest rates. Everyone's worried about deflation and subpar growth.

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Speaker 3: I remember, I don't know if it was twenty eleven,

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Speaker 3: So if I'm getting this date wrong, I'm sorry, but

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Speaker 3: I remember I think it was twenty eleven and the

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Speaker 3: market went up substantially. Does that sound right to you?

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Speaker 3: Twenty eleven? I think twenty twenty five percent? It was.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it was twenty ten.

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Speaker 1: Twenty even bought him in October.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I was twenty year year. Maybe it was twenty ten.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it's twenty twelve. I forget the year, but the

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Speaker 3: market went up twenty twelve. I think maybe it's twenty twelve.

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Speaker 3: The market went up twenty or twenty five percent. And

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Speaker 3: I think it was Gallup who pulled Americans and said,

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Speaker 3: did the stock market go up or down this year?

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Speaker 3: And it was like sixty percent of Americans thought the

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Speaker 3: market went down during a year when it went up

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Speaker 3: twenty five percent. I actually think this was two thousand

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Speaker 3: and nine, which makes sense. Okay, it makes more sense, right,

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Speaker 3: And so that wasn't I think this explains the question

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Speaker 3: of like, in hindsight, it was a great time to

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Speaker 3: accumulate assets. But during the time, even a year when

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Speaker 3: the market went up twenty five percent, people were so

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Speaker 3: sure that the economy was bad that they assumed the

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Speaker 3: market went down. And Joe, both of you will remember this,

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Speaker 3: from basically twenty nine to twenty sixteen, if you were

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Speaker 3: a bullish on the stock market, you looked kind of

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Speaker 3: like a fool and you got dragged on Twitter. This

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, the cape ratio is too high, and

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Speaker 3: there was all this. So in hindsight it was a

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Speaker 3: generational buying opportunity, but it was that's all hindsight. It

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Speaker 3: was very hard to be bullish during that era, and

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Speaker 3: a lot of it was twenty eleven was double dip

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Speaker 3: recession right around the corner, and the idea that the

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Speaker 3: financial crisis of two thousand and eight was just to

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Speaker 3: prelude to what was to the big crash that was coming.

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Speaker 3: That was a very popular view during those years, and

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Speaker 3: I think it was it was really hard to be

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Speaker 3: a long term goal.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about this in the intro. This phenomenon

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Speaker 1: of like people started like anchoring to what they know,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like for a lot of people like ZERP,

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Speaker 1: really low nominal interest rates like, oh, that's normal, and

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Speaker 1: what we have right now, where like the ten years

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Speaker 1: yielding four percent and a mortgage is over seven percent,

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Speaker 1: that feels like aberrationally high. Like again, going sort of

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Speaker 1: back to the past, like does it take a while?

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Speaker 1: I mean it must you sort of as you describe it,

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Speaker 1: like it seems to like take a while for like

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Speaker 1: at this sink in that It's like, no, that was

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Speaker 1: that was then, and it wasn't necessarily like normal or abnormal,

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Speaker 1: but that was a different time.

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Speaker 3: I think that that does make sense. But the counter

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Speaker 3: to that would be in the other direction. You know,

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Speaker 3: in the late nineties, a mortgage was seven percent run

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Speaker 3: by two thousand and three it was three or four percent,

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Speaker 3: And I think people got used to that really quickly.

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Speaker 3: That was kind of the basis of the housing bubble

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Speaker 3: that peaked in two thousand and six, is that by

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Speaker 3: two thousand and six people were already completely used to

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Speaker 3: low interest rates that didn't exist four years prior.

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Speaker 1: That's wild.

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Speaker 3: So I do think people get accustomed to it fairly quickly.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of that, I mean, at the corporate level,

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Speaker 3: a lot of that debt rolls over every five years,

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Speaker 3: so there's gonna be like that, the credit cycle is

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Speaker 3: going to wash out in a fairly quick period of time.

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Speaker 3: But interest rate cycles are also pretty long. Like interest

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Speaker 3: rates bottomed after World War Two in the early fifties

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Speaker 3: and then peaked in the late or the early eighties,

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Speaker 3: Like it was a really long cycle for them to

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Speaker 3: go from three percent to fifteen percent.

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Speaker 2: What sort of different behavioral patterns do you observe between

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Speaker 2: eras of low interest rates versus eras of high interest rates.

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Speaker 3: I think because the interest rate cycles are so long,

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Speaker 3: and there's only been a couple cycles in the post

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Speaker 3: World War two era, it was like they went, what.

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Speaker 2: Were people in the nineteen sixties doing? Tell us?

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Speaker 3: So much of that debt, though, didn't really exist, like

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Speaker 3: at the end of World War two and forty five,

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Speaker 3: consumer credit barely existed at all. In fact, a lot

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Speaker 3: of the GI Bill was introducing new forms of consumer

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Speaker 3: credit to make sure the economy didn't collapse after World

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Speaker 3: War Two. It was like, we want you to be spenders,

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Speaker 3: so like credit cards and installment loans. A lot of

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Speaker 3: that just exploded after World War Two. But then the

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Speaker 3: rates were so high during that period that it really

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Speaker 3: wasn't until the nineties that consumer credit just like exploded,

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Speaker 3: So we don't have that much history about what it is,

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Speaker 3: and so I don't think there's a ton of precedent

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Speaker 3: for what we're dealing with in terms of like the

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Speaker 3: consumer credit. But there's also a thing where you've seen

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Speaker 3: I know, Joe, you've seen this chart. I think you've

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Speaker 3: tweeted this chart of as a percentage of income, household

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Speaker 3: debt payments right now are actually very low, like historically

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Speaker 3: near the bottom that they've been in the last forty years.

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Speaker 3: So if you just look at the nominal amount of

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Speaker 3: household debt, it looks scary, but actually, as like a

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Speaker 3: percentage of income, it's actually very low right now.

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Speaker 1: You know, Obviously, economists, like macroeconomists, the last real inflationary

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Speaker 1: period that anyone remembers was the seventies. And interestingly, like

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Speaker 1: I sort of the grandees of economics, many of them

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Speaker 1: came during the seventies, So like looms very large. But

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Speaker 1: setting aside like how academic economists think from the from

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Speaker 1: your perspective, we're looking at sociology and history, etcetera, Like,

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Speaker 1: does this remind you of the seventies or is that

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Speaker 1: just sort of like a fake analogy because inflation was

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Speaker 1: high then too.

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Speaker 3: I think the seventies were really unique too, because because

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Speaker 3: in addition to inflation that was so crippling, there was

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Speaker 3: so much social unrest between Vietnam. All of that blended

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Speaker 3: together to just an era of pessimism. So a lot

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Speaker 3: of the pessimism wasn't just because of inflation or just

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Speaker 3: because of FED policy, Like there's all these other things

404
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Speaker 3: boiling up that made people just really upset about the

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Speaker 3: state of America that all falls in it. And I

406
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Speaker 3: think that was true in the nineties as well. It

407
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Speaker 3: wasn't just economic prosperity. It was economic prosperity mixed with

408
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Speaker 3: political stability, mixed with Soviet Union was gone, so America

409
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Speaker 3: is untouchable. It was just like all these things mixed together.

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Speaker 3: And I think if you view optimism solely through an

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Speaker 3: economic lens, like ninety percent of households don't read the

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Speaker 3: Wall Street Journal, don't know what the Dow did yesterday.

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Speaker 3: They're putting all of these things together. It's not just

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Speaker 3: is the economy strong, it's is Washington in good shape?

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Speaker 3: Are their political fights? Or is my kids school in

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Speaker 3: good shape? It's like all these things mixed in one,

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Speaker 3: and I think a lot of financial economists and journalists

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Speaker 3: only view it through one narrow lens. But that's not

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Speaker 3: how most households think.

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Speaker 2: All right, So just on this point, I mean, one

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Speaker 2: of the oddities of our current economic environment is that

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Speaker 2: the hard data says we're doing relatively well, but if

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Speaker 2: you look at the survey based data, if you just

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Speaker 2: look at what people are talking about on a daily basis,

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Speaker 2: it's like we're already in a depression. Basically, how do

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Speaker 2: you explain that discrepancy?

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Speaker 3: I remember years ago someone saying that consumer confidence, like

428
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Speaker 3: the statistic that's released, is fueled by three things the

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Speaker 3: stock market, gas prices, and politics. And to the extent

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Speaker 3: that that's true, then I think it's it's politics is

431
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Speaker 3: probably what's why that's being partisan in the way it

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Speaker 3: is partisanship. Yeah, and I almost think it's it's so

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Speaker 3: extreme that no matter, the Dow could double and the

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Speaker 3: unemployment right could collapse to one percent. I mean, someone

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Speaker 3: brought up recently, I think it was Josh Brown, who

436
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Speaker 3: was like, you, guys, the stock market's near an all

437
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 3: time high, unemployments three and a half percent. You can

438
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 3: earn five percent on your cash. Why are you not

439
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,399
Speaker 3: why are you not happy here? And I think for

440
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,119
Speaker 3: a lot of people, the answer is politics.

441
00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,919
Speaker 1: Hopefully inflation is soon going to be back at target

442
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 1: or you know, defence target. But we don't know for sure.

443
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,120
Speaker 1: But we obviously, you know, we had the highest recently

444
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 1: had the highest inflation in forty years, something we haven't seen.

445
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about like some of the

446
00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 1: sort of like nihilistic speculation, what do you see as

447
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 1: some other knock on effects from the last few years,

448
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 1: whether it's the inflation or just the COVID disruption or

449
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 1: anything else that we've experienced since March twenty twenty.

450
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 3: COVID was so interesting because it was so binary in

451
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 3: terms of if you were a tech worker in twenty twenty,

452
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 3: it had never been better, Whereas if you owned a laundromat,

453
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 3: it's worse than the Great Depression, and the actual Great Depression,

454
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,879
Speaker 3: in facted virtually everyone at the same worst. COVID was

455
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 3: so different, and so you have probably half of America

456
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 3: for whom twenty twenty was a great year financially, and

457
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 3: half it was the worst it's ever been by an

458
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 3: order of magnitude. And because of that, I think when

459
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,679
Speaker 3: you have half the country that doesn't understand what the

460
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 3: other half went through, that also leads to an era

461
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,880
Speaker 3: of like, I don't trust this the numbers, trust the statistics,

462
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 3: I don't trust the politicians because what this guy is

463
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,719
Speaker 3: saying is so counter to what I experienced in either direction.

464
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 3: And I think that also just leads to an era

465
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,479
Speaker 3: of hyperpartisanship of like, if you're saying that about the economy,

466
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 3: how disconnected are you in a way that we really

467
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 3: haven't dealt with. And a lot of the reason that

468
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 3: a lot of the policies during the Great Depression, the

469
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 3: New Deal got through in a semi biparson ways because

470
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,160
Speaker 3: it's a great depression impacted everybody. Two thousand and eight

471
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 3: was I think similar to that as well, like everyone

472
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 3: was going to be screwed if the banks went down,

473
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 3: so it makes it easier to push through policy.

474
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 2: This is also my theory of why people care more

475
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 2: about inflation than the unemployment rate, because if you personally

476
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 2: haven't lost your job, it's hard for you to sort

477
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: of envision, oh, unemployment is at you know, a multi

478
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,640
Speaker 2: decade low, but you can definitely see egg prices at

479
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 2: your local grocery. Everyone can see those, and so it

480
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 2: seems like it becomes a much bigger talking point. But okay,

481
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 2: let's talk about a bright spot, which is I guess

482
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 2: we can now earn four or five percent on a

483
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:03,159
Speaker 2: bank account or a certificate of pose. It that seems great, Yeah, and.

484
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 3: It's it's weird. There's almost a point when if you're

485
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 3: buying a one year CD right now you get five

486
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: and a half percent, it almost feels like you're robbing

487
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 3: the bank. You're like, You're like, really, you're gonna fig

488
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 3: me that when you when you've had fifteen or ten

489
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 3: years whatever, observe. It's it's a wild thing to deal with.

490
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 3: But you both of you know this historically weird. This

491
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 3: is normal. Yeah. I think that's what's hard to wrap

492
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,640
Speaker 3: your head around, is that historically this is what we're

493
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 3: dealing with. Is not the anomaly. This is the completely

494
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,400
Speaker 3: normal part. And I think it would I think everything

495
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 3: would be better if we live in an era if

496
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 3: we never go back to deserve. Everything would be better if

497
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 3: we have an era where there is some sort of

498
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 3: anchor on speculation and people can earn a decent return

499
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 3: on their cash with some level of risk. I think

500
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 3: that's so much healthier in every aspect.

501
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 2: So one of the weird things though, just on that point, was,

502
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 2: you know, earlier this year, when interest rates on bank

503
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 2: accounts were starting to creep up, we actually didn't see

504
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 2: that many people who seem to actually be moving their

505
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 2: money into higher yielding accounts or money market funds. It

506
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 2: didn't really happen, I guess until March when we had

507
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 2: the SVB drama. But what do you think accounts for that?

508
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 2: Is it just it takes people a while to realize

509
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: this is something available to them.

510
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think there has been quite a

511
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 3: bit that have moved into money market accounts. I mean,

512
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 3: what are money market accounts now five trillion dollars or something,

513
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 3: So there has been money that's that's moved over. I

514
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 3: think the average American just doesn't think about it that much.

515
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 3: And maybe if you don't have a very high level

516
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 3: of savings, there's kind of a wide bother mentality. Yeah,

517
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 3: whereas most I imagine most of the high dollar amount

518
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 3: accounts have moved pretty quickly. And it's a wild thing

519
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 3: if you think about, you know, anyone's guess of future

520
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 3: stock market returns is as good as anyone else's. But

521
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 3: if you think, like at valuations stocks return like maybe

522
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 3: six to seven percent something like that, that, my guess

523
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 3: is as good as anyone else is. So let's say

524
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 3: stocks return six and you can earn five and a

525
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 3: half percent in a money market account. All of a sudden,

526
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 3: you're like, for the first time in twenty years, it's

527
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 3: a really it's not an easy decision to make.

528
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to say so, I think, like, you know,

529
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 1: this has come up a few times, you know, on show,

530
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 1: and the first couple of times we discussed that, I'm

531
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 1: like five percent, Like, that's not that.

532
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 2: Have you finally been rate pill Jack?

533
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's like it's like it's it doesn't really

534
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: seem worth it to like move it over. But now

535
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: like after like a few months, it's like, actually, yeah,

536
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: it is, like it is like meaningful. And as you say,

537
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: like if historical returns on the stock market are like

538
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: maybe six and a half percent or something like that,

539
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: and now you can get five percent like truly.

540
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: On a money market account.

541
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that's like pretty good, isn't it.

542
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: But that's I think that's the world you should live.

543
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 3: There should be some anchor against speculation. There should be

544
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 3: some temptation for your money that is not just a

545
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 3: yolo mentality.

546
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 1: Do you think like it doesn't feel right now in

547
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: September twenty twenty three, that the speculative fervor that we

548
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 1: saw that really peaked in twenty twenty one, Like it

549
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 1: still feels like there's still like some embers of that right,

550
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: Like you still see meme stocks, like it's not much,

551
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: but like it's still exists.

552
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: That's still twenty five, and I think it's I think

553
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 3: it's wrong to just associate speculative frenzies with interest rates.

554
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 3: You gotta remember the nineteen ninety nine, like the peak

555
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 3: of the dot com bubble, interest rates were higher than

556
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 3: they are today. So you can have a crazy bubble

557
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: with interest rates. I'm sure it plays a role, but

558
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 3: I think just explaining it as like every ten to

559
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 3: twenty years, people collectively lose their minds financially, like irrespective

560
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,239
Speaker 3: interest rates make what easier to do it. But you

561
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 3: could have a giant speculatve bubble with interest rates where

562
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: they are today. So it wouldn't surprise me, even with

563
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 3: the hikes that we've had, if there's a new crypto bubble,

564
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: a new meme bubble, like whatever it would be. I

565
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 3: think all that is detached from interest rates.

566
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: It feels to me like social media is also I

567
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 2: don't want to say new, because we had message boards

568
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety nine and two thousand where people were

569
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 2: talking up stocks. But it feels like that sort of

570
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: added fuel to that dynamic where people are chasing bubbles

571
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 2: rather than running away from them.

572
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it turns into like a tribal mentality, particularly

573
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 3: in the crypto space, where you're willingness and your ability

574
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 3: to buy certain kinds of crypto is your identity. And

575
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 3: I think that also existed in the nineteen nineties, like

576
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 3: I'm a tech stock trainer, that's your identity. And I

577
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 3: think anytime in finance where you say I'm a blank

578
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 3: whatever it is, even I'm a value investor, anytime you

579
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 3: get that kind of tribal identity, you're like outsourcing your

580
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: thinking to the madness of crowds. And I think it's

581
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 3: a really dangerous way to invest.

582
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: Is there a way like to deprogram that for from

583
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, deprogrammed someone or deprogram yourself, because like that

584
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: lock in effect where like right, some way that you

585
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 1: invest you know, and I think even like professional like

586
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: professionals have this all the time, Like it seems really hard.

587
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 1: Just changing your mind is really tough. Is there all,

588
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: like have you in your research? Are there tools or

589
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: like ideas that actually work to like get better at

590
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: changing your minds.

591
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 3: I don't know if there's tools or ideas, but I

592
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 3: think some people are just much better at being independent

593
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 3: thinkers than others. Even like I said, if you said

594
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 3: I'm a value investor, it seems so conservative and so

595
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: so benign. But Josh Brown has made this joke that

596
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: a lot of value investors just end up owning like

597
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 3: typewriter companies for twenty years. And it's like even if

598
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 3: you lock yourself into that tribe, it's not safe.

599
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: But even like you know, I was thinking too, like

600
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: you know, in the beginning, like and you still have

601
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: this fight. It's like setting aside eve an investment to

602
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: like team Transitory or like team persons when you're debating inflation.

603
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: It's hard to change your mind really, even with new data.

604
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 3: And I think social media makes that really hard too,

605
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 3: because now there's like a timestamp on every call that

606
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 3: you made in a way that there wasn't before, and

607
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 3: people would much rather be consistent than be right. And

608
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 3: the reason that is is because I think when most

609
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 3: people are looking at a pundit online, they want their

610
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: pundit to be consistent. And most people like, if you

611
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 3: tell people what they want to hear, you can be

612
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 3: wrong forever without penalty. So if you want to be

613
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: pessimistic and you listen to Peter Schiff for ten years

614
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 3: saying the dollar is going to collapse next month, even

615
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 3: if it doesn't, he told you what you want to hear,

616
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 3: and you're gonna buy his newsletters and keep on going.

617
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 3: So in the punditry business, that's the way to do it,

618
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 3: even if it's like from an economic point of view,

619
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 3: it's terrible.

620
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 2: Well, we're very good at avoiding consistency on this podcast.

621
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: Yet we don't have that problem. We change our minds

622
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 2: all the time. No wait, you mentioned value investing, and

623
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: it does feel like, at least up until twenty twenty

624
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: and maybe even beyond it, the big money was in

625
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: chasing momentum. What does that mean because we're talking about

626
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: the fallacy of group thing. But on the other hand,

627
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: if you have a really good handle on a certain

628
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: narrative or what's going to attract people to a particular investment.

629
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 2: It feels like an advantage.

630
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a great George Soros quote quote where he says,

631
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: whenever I see a bubble, I rush into buy it.

632
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,479
Speaker 3: And it seems so counterintuitive, like why would you want

633
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 3: to buy a bubble? I think his I don't want

634
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: to put words his mouth. I think his thinking is

635
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 3: he understands that a bubble is very likely to grow

636
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 3: bigger than you think, just because everyone else is going

637
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: to watch their neighbor to get rich and they're going

638
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 3: to come in, which is exactly what happens every single bubble.

639
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 3: So I think that like the chasing of momentum, Yeah,

640
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: it has a huge behavioral component behind it. Now the

641
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 3: hard thing is like getting out before everyone else is

642
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 3: someone like George Sorels can do, but virtually no one

643
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: else can. So it's like that has no appeal to

644
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 3: me whatsoever, because the idea that you're going to get

645
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 3: out before everyone else when you're chasing their behavior to

646
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: begin with, is betting wrong thing.

647
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: So we talked about it in the beginning like this

648
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, talk about how personal finance,

649
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: personal money is like there's like two kinds and they're

650
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: both kind of I'm not that great where it's one

651
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: is like giving people stock picks and you know, let's

652
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: be honest, and the other one is this sort of

653
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: like okay, here's like what credit card to get to

654
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: like maximize miles sitting aside like the speculative frenzy or

655
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: investing or mem stock. Do you think what we've experienced

656
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: over the last three years will like meaningfully change how

657
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: people consume going forward in some ways, like just general

658
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: consumption patterns.

659
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: I think it's not necessarily the last three years in

660
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: terms of COVID being the last three years. I think

661
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: it's the last ten years of social media that just

662
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: massively changes it. It's always been historically that there's no

663
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 3: objective level of wealth. Everything is just relative to the

664
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 3: people around you, your neighbors, your coworkers, and you're like,

665
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 3: relative to that person, here's how much money I have.

666
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: I always hear people say things like, oh, like compared

667
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: to like a king in the eighteen hundreds, you're so rich.

668
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, great, but my neighbors, Like.

669
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 3: Everyone just looks at the people around you, But now

670
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: it's the people around you is Instagram, and it's a

671
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 3: curiated highlight reel like everyone around the world. Someone said recently,

672
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 3: I went from keeping up with the Joneses to keeping

673
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 3: up with the Kardashians, Like that's what social media did.

674
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 3: It went from now you're comparing yourself to the highlight

675
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 3: reel of everyone's life. So I think expectations of what

676
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 3: people's definition is of a good life just exploded over

677
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 3: the last ten years. I can see it with my

678
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: seven year old son who spends time on YouTube and

679
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 3: what his definition is all at age seven, of what

680
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 3: success looks like. If you watch Mister Beast all day,

681
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: success is like driving a Lamborghini and throwing ten thousand

682
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 3: dollars at strangers. And I think there's an element of

683
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: that in social media.

684
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: It's just.

685
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: It turns into that. But it used to be when

686
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 3: you compare yourself to your neighbors, there's much more mundane

687
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 3: than comparing yourself to Instagram. So I think that's that's

688
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: the biggest change in consumption. It's just an inflated expectation,

689
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: and it's the Luis k joke of everything's amazing and

690
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 3: nobody's happy. If your expectations grow, that much. Then, even

691
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 3: when there is great economic growth and the stock market

692
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: is doing well, it never feels like it's enough because

693
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 3: you're comparing yourself to something crazy.

694
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: I mean, listening to that, it sounds kind of dire

695
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 2: in the sense that I don't think social media is

696
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: going away anytime soon. What does that mean for the

697
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: long term? Is there a way for people to break

698
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: out of that mindset?

699
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 3: I don't think there is, And of course social media

700
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 3: is not going away, so it would not surprise I'm

701
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: not a forecast kind of guy, but it would not

702
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 3: surprise me. In the next generation, we have very good

703
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 3: economic growth, very good stock market growth, and no one

704
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: is even a morsel happier for it. I think that

705
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 3: that it's already happened over the last generation. I mean,

706
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 3: that's almost the whole history of economic growth, like great growth,

707
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: but everyone just gets accustomed to it. And there's parts

708
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 3: of that that's great. That's what keeps people wanting to

709
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: push harder and innovate more is because it never feels

710
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 3: like it's enough. So a lot of that is a

711
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 3: great thing. But if you're looking at it's easy today

712
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 3: to think, oh, our grandkids, their real income is going

713
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 3: to be double or triple of ours, and that means

714
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 3: their life is going to be so great. It's like

715
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: the second part of that is where people make mistake.

716
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 3: There's a good chance that our grandkids, their real income

717
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 3: will be double or triple of ours, and I would

718
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 3: bet heavily that they will not be any happier for it.

719
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: Right, They'll be like that guy over there has a

720
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: bigger spaceship than.

721
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 3: As exactly what it's going to be.

722
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: Yes, well, what do you do like in your in

723
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: your personal life or with your family, or how you

724
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: like think about these things to like escape Some of

725
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: these traps are very hard to fall into.

726
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 3: It's not easy to do. I think my wife and I,

727
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 3: who's in the room right now, are pretty good at

728
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: just being like, this is what makes us happy, and

729
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: we're gonna we're not gonna let a lot of external

730
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 3: influences let us in. But it's hard for everybody. No

731
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 3: one can escape the comparison game. I think it's just

732
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 3: a natural part of how humans behave is just compare

733
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 3: yourself to your peers. So it's not an easy thing

734
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: to do. I think there is something to say for

735
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: the idea that nobody is thinking about you as much

736
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: as you are, so everyone is like, I got to

737
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,479
Speaker 3: get the nicer clothes so that people will be impressed

738
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 3: with me. They're not impressed with you, and they're not thinking.

739
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: They're thinking about themselves. No one's thinking about your car,

740
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 3: nobody's thinking about the size of your house. They're all

741
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 3: busy thinking about themselves. Once you understand that, then I

742
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 3: think your aspiration for showing off like plunges, and that's

743
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 3: what you need to be. Like, I'm just happy with this,

744
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: hanging out in my family, going for a walk with

745
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: my kids. I don't need to show off to people

746
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 3: who aren't paying any attention to me. But some people

747
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 3: can do that better than others.

748
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: We've been talking a lot about how human beings respond

749
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: to change and the idea that maybe we're going from

750
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 2: an environment of low interest rates to one of high

751
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: interest rates. You have a new book coming out. My

752
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: understanding is it's all about change. Is that right?

753
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 3: It's about things that never change over time, which I

754
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 3: think is the more important. I got the idea many

755
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 3: years ago. There's a Jeff Bezos quote that I'll paraphrase.

756
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 3: He said, people always ask me what's going to change

757
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 3: in technology? And a better question is what is never

758
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 3: going to change? And he said, you can never imagine

759
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 3: a future at Amazon where customers don't want low prices

760
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 3: and big selection. So because you can't imagine that future,

761
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 3: you can invest all of your money into that knowing

762
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 3: it's going to be just as important fifty years from

763
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: now as it is today, which you can't say about

764
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 3: most other technologies. Most other technologies have a shelf life

765
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 3: of a year or two and then they're absollete. So

766
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 3: it was the idea that part of the started for

767
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 3: me with just the observation that both of you know,

768
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 3: most economic predictions and stock market predictions are very bad.

769
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 3: Our ability to predict what the stock it's not very good,

770
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 3: so and I think part of that reason is because

771
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 3: we focus, we try to pay attention on what's going

772
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 3: to change, and if we instead pay attention on what

773
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 3: we know is not going to change, how people pay

774
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: attention and respond to risk and greed and fear. Let's

775
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 3: just focus on that, knowing for certain that's going to

776
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 3: be part of our future, rather than pretending like we

777
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 3: can predict what might change in the future.

778
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny like even on the stock market, like

779
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: our friend Sam Row, like who has a great newslettercare

780
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: dot com. His whole thing is like stocks usually go up, yes,

781
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: and you know, we could talk all about, oh, what's

782
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: going to happen with like you know, the if the

783
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: FED doesn't hike it, you know, the FED hikes in

784
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: November and the FED hikes twice, et cetera. But like

785
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: history seems pretty clear, like in the long term, they

786
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: just the line basically goes up.

787
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 3: There's another version of that. Derek Thompson from The Atlantic

788
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 3: I think he wrote this in like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen.

789
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: He said, you know, since two thousand and eight, there

790
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 3: have been hundreds of thousands of articles written about the

791
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 3: economy and what's going to happen. And you can summarize

792
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 3: all of that period by just saying things got better slowly.

793
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 3: That's all the economic news you needed to know during

794
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 3: that ten year period. And so I think I think

795
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: there's a lot.

796
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: Of true I love talking about all this stuff every

797
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: once in a while, I'm like, it's just sort of fun.

798
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: But I don't know, no, I think that's an important topic.

799
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: I've been open about how I invest I dollar cost

800
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 3: average into index funds, but I pay attention to the

801
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: stock market every day. I read all the economic news.

802
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 3: I read the Wall Street Journal every day because I

803
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 3: think it's interesting. I think markets are interesting, and you

804
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 3: don't need to take that news and become a day

805
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 3: trader with that news. But I think markets are such

806
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: a fascinating window into human behavior, and there's no other

807
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 3: window that shows like how people think about greed and

808
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 3: fear and risk, which are such important topics in all

809
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 3: areas of life, but you see it in finance in

810
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: a starker way than any other topic.

811
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: Morgan Housel, so great to finally have you on Outlaws.

812
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. This is a really fun company.

813
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, the perfect person for our first personal finance episode.

814
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 3: I think this has been fun.

815
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: Thanks, this is great. Thank you so much.

816
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 3: Thanks guys.

817
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we've finally had Morgan on.

818
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 3: That was great.

819
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 2: That was fantastic, and I'm looking forward to the new

820
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: book for sure. I also thought the summary of Markets

821
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: and Economics as like, it's not really about the line

822
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: going up or down, but it's about the human beings

823
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: involved in it, the emotions, the sort of like intellectual

824
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: rigor around these ideas. That's the perfect way of summing it.

825
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: Up, Yeah, I totally agree because I basically am of

826
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: this view. It's like the economy will probably overtime grow

827
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: and the stock market over time will go up. And

828
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to just leave it at that because

829
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: I do think.

830
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 2: All this, that's your job, this.

831
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: Is my job.

832
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: I want people to pay attention. But every once in

833
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: a while, I'm like, Okay, why do we pay attention?

834
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: And I think that Morgan captured it as you and

835
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: as you said right there, it's like, it's interesting, we

836
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: learned a lot about how people think and how people behave.

837
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily mean like it makes sense to like

838
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: try to like trade to like Morgan Stanley or Goldman's

839
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: like s and p Year in Target or something, right.

840
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: I also thought the point about like one of the

841
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 2: things that happened in COVID was the fracturing of people's experiences.

842
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: I thought that was really interesting because I think the

843
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: knee jerk reaction to a global event like that is

844
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 2: to think, oh, well, we all went through this big,

845
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: you know, history making thing. But actually, as Morgan said,

846
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: individual experiences varied widely, and I think it makes sense

847
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: that that might be one reason why people now are

848
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 2: much more distrustful of what they're hearing on a sort

849
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: of collective basis.

850
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: That was such a good point. That was like a

851
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: light bulb because I guess on some level it's like

852
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: maybe that seems obvious, but like that was really well

853
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: put in. Like I remember July twenty twenty and I

854
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: was like, things don't seem very good. But then I did,

855
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: like you know, I would like follow like these tech

856
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: people and they're like like close another deal today, yeah,

857
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: like over zoom, and I was like wow, like this is.

858
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: A yeah, I'm working from home and like my personal

859
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: wealth just went up by ten person, Like.

860
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: That's really that bifurcation is really striking. I was like

861
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 1: this idea of like we had three in the span

862
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: of less than twenty years, yeah, nine to eleven, two

863
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: thousand and one, the Great Financial Layman two thousand and eight,

864
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: and then COVID so less than twenty or three, like

865
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: pretty like sort of earth shattering moments of one way

866
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: or another, Like you see like how like cumulative we

867
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 1: just begin to expect like oh this is the norm.

868
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: No totally, And I think people also react to those

869
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: in different ways because some people might think, well, I

870
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: need to save a ton of money. Yeah, because I

871
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: never know when there's going to be a great recession

872
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 2: coming up next and I'm going to lose my job,

873
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: and other people might just think, you know, screw it,

874
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: none of this matters. Even if I accumulate all this

875
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: wealth put it in an index fund, Maybe another two

876
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 2: thousand and eight happens tomorrow and it doesn't matter. So

877
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: I'm going to buy an NFT instead, right?

878
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: Or am I going to be happy with the five

879
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: percent on the CD? Or you know, like I always think,

880
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,479
Speaker 1: you know about the Chinese economy, which is does seem

881
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: to have this same phenomenon of high savings, right, Yeah,

882
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: but as you've written a lot about, like some of

883
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 1: the most intense speculative the worldlike people like day trading,

884
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: like iron ore futures and stuff like that.

885
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. All right, well shall we leave it there.

886
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 1: Let's leave it there.

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00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: Okay. This has been another episode of the ad Thoughts Podcast.

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00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

889
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

890
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: Follow our guest Morgan Housel at Morgan Housel. Follow our

891
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: producers Kerman Rodriguez at Carman Arman and Dash Bennett at Dashbot.

892
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: And check out all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under

893
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: the handle at podcasts, and for more oddlogs content, go

894
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: to Bloomberg dot com slash Odlogs. We have transcripts, a blog,

895
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: and a newsletter. And check out our discord discord dot

896
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 1: gg slash Odlogs where listeners like yourself, we're chading twenty

897
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: four to seven about all of these topics.

898
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: And if you enjoy Oddlots, if you want us to

899
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: do more personal finance episodes, then please leave us a

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00:40:51,480 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: positive review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening

901
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: in

902
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: In