Speaker 1: So there was a bit. There was a massive dulchake.
Speaker 1: There was a massive Dolche Gabana photo shoot in Portofino, Italy. UM.
Speaker 1: And also I think there was a wedding. We have
Speaker 1: to talk about the Kardashian Dulce Gabana campaign. Um. That
Speaker 1: also happened to be a wedding. UM. The Kardashian shot
Speaker 1: adulta Gabana worldwide campaign in Italy. UM. And also Kartney
Speaker 1: Kardashian got married. Um. It was such an amazing display
Speaker 1: of love between the two of them. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: crazy because I talked to Paul about it because obviously,
Speaker 1: if Paul and I wanted to get married on television,
Speaker 1: we would have that opportunity. And Paul said, for ten
Speaker 1: million dollars, I would not get married and television. He said,
Speaker 1: I would not make my wedding public for ten million dollars.
Speaker 1: I didn't even ask him about twenty I think he'd
Speaker 1: say no. He said, my life would change forever. And I,
Speaker 1: you know, when is enough enough? And it's funny because
Speaker 1: I was thinking about the fact that this this wedding
Speaker 1: Dolce campaign extravaganza, it was beautiful. Everybody looked amazing, and
Speaker 1: head to tell even the kids, like, would there be
Speaker 1: a breach of contract? If if if, like is that
Speaker 1: why maybe Rob didn't come because he wasn't willing to
Speaker 1: wear dolt jakobana and like he would have broken the
Speaker 1: Kardashian contract starting with a K. The new contract should
Speaker 1: start with a K from now on. I think contracts
Speaker 1: should start with a K. But like every single I
Speaker 1: think the Kardashian dogs where they are wearing dolt Jackobanna collars,
Speaker 1: I mean it was a full fledged doltja Gabana, Like
Speaker 1: literally dolt Chackabana jerked off all over the Kardashian wedding
Speaker 1: um and I was and but by the way, they
Speaker 1: looked so happy and it was amazing, and I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, I love that she did what she wanted.
Speaker 1: She wore what she wanted. That dress, you know, it
Speaker 1: was like a lingerie dress and with a veil of
Speaker 1: the Virgin Mary. That veil was gorgeous. Chris Jenner looked
Speaker 1: amazing and like the picture with the veil that was
Speaker 1: like up on all those stairs was amazing. And there
Speaker 1: was a video somewhere of like Kendall like trying to
Speaker 1: walk and flats up these crazy stairs in this dress,
Speaker 1: and I mean it looks like they had a great
Speaker 1: time and they are and like a their family. You know,
Speaker 1: it was like a family dynamic. The song's sister Sledge
Speaker 1: was playing on a video like we are a family.
Speaker 1: I got all my sisters with me, which was amazing. Um.
Speaker 1: But I was talking to Paul about it, and I
Speaker 1: was he was saying, wow, like what there are no limits?
Speaker 1: Like when is enough enough? Like they can't stop, it's
Speaker 1: just more? Is more? Get every fucking nickel off that floor.
Speaker 1: We're not leaving a goddamn scent, not a cent in
Speaker 1: the joint. We are going to fucking strip this place.
Speaker 1: This country will be stripped of every goddamn penny, nickel,
Speaker 1: you know, Subway token, drachma, any currency that starts with
Speaker 1: a K is fucking coming into our bank accounts every
Speaker 1: which way. But Sunday brands that trash just a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, owning them events that trashed us several
Speaker 1: years ago and wouldn't invite us, taken them over. We
Speaker 1: it's a fucking smash and grab job and we are
Speaker 1: taking no prisoners. It is called It's the Kardashian country
Speaker 1: that starts with a K and we're fucking running this
Speaker 1: motherfucker because they are not playing any games. It's the
Speaker 1: not fucking around crew. Get the funk out of the way,
Speaker 1: and while you're getting the funk out of the way,
Speaker 1: pay us to get the funk out of the way. Also,
Speaker 1: like I've been, I've gotten married on television, Like I've
Speaker 1: experienced that, I've planned a wedding on television. I've you know,
Speaker 1: there are whereas. It does make the experience different. It's
Speaker 1: not as intimate. It's strange for other people that are,
Speaker 1: you know, in attendance, it's definitely different. There's definitely a sacrifice,
Speaker 1: so I wonder, and it's not as intimate like it is,
Speaker 1: But how do I explain it. It's like there's all
Speaker 1: this excitement that is about the actual event that's happening
Speaker 1: in your life, but it's layered and there's more excitement
Speaker 1: because there are cameras in an audience, and there's an
Speaker 1: audience in that room that's also aware that there are cameras.
Speaker 1: So it's like you're sort of in this weird world
Speaker 1: where there are cameras on you, but there's an audience
Speaker 1: beyond the cameras. The people that the cameras aren't really
Speaker 1: capturing because they don't really care about those other people
Speaker 1: that are at your wedding, So they're sort of like extras.
Speaker 1: They're extras. You're the stars in the movie. There are
Speaker 1: cameras and they're extras watching you be in this scene,
Speaker 1: and it's definitely different. And then you're also where that
Speaker 1: there's an audience that's people watching television around the country
Speaker 1: and the world that are watching this, and the Kardashians
Speaker 1: have a bigger stage, and then there's an audience that
Speaker 1: are watching in the media. So there's no way that
Speaker 1: you're walking and eating an ice cream cone and you're
Speaker 1: not aware. You're not dumb, You've been doing this for
Speaker 1: twenty seasons. You're aware that that's something that you're in
Speaker 1: a role doing. The ice cream cone is a prop,
Speaker 1: you know, meaning like you know that that's like grab
Speaker 1: the ice cream cone role film. Like, So can something
Speaker 1: be as intimate? Can something be even if you've lived
Speaker 1: your whole life this way? Like, are there any private moments?
Speaker 1: You know, like, are there moments that because it's hard
Speaker 1: to be present, I've experienced it. I have a hard
Speaker 1: time being present, you know, going to an event with
Speaker 1: my fiance that just involves me taking some pictures. I
Speaker 1: feel self conscious if I bring Brent to the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio Words and it's twenty minutes on the red carpet,
Speaker 1: I feel self conscious that there are cameras and I'm
Speaker 1: being photographed when I walk down the street. If there's
Speaker 1: someone who takes a picture and they wanted to get
Speaker 1: a picture of me, and they less want to get
Speaker 1: a picture of her, let me get a picture alone,
Speaker 1: I feel self conscious. There's no way that these dynamics
Speaker 1: don't happen in these grander schemes because there's so much
Speaker 1: bigger than what I've experienced. So I have, but I
Speaker 1: have some institutional knowledge, and it's just it does take
Speaker 1: away from the actual emotion of the moment and the
Speaker 1: authenticity of the moment and the intimacy of the moment.
Speaker 1: There's it's an absolute fact that that moment is is
Speaker 1: changed and that there's something about it that is for
Speaker 1: an audience. So that's interesting, you know, And that's something
Speaker 1: that Paul, my fiance, would never subscribe to, and I
Speaker 1: mean never, so uh, it's interesting. You have to be
Speaker 1: with someone who wants to roll with that program. Travis
Speaker 1: Barker wants to roll with that program, and Tristan Thompson
Speaker 1: and Kanye wanted to roll with that program, like you
Speaker 1: can't you can't run that life and not to roll
Speaker 1: with that hair and makeup produced filter program. A lot
Speaker 1: of you have asked me for my take on the
Speaker 1: Netflix series Bad Vegan, And not only did I watch
Speaker 1: Bad Vegan, but I had the Bad Vegan herself, Sarma
Speaker 1: melm Gollis on my podcast. She's been called the Vegan
Speaker 1: Bernie made off. But is she Sarma's coming on? And
Speaker 1: this was a controversial show. I happened to have been
Speaker 1: to the restaurant. I happened to know Jeffrey Chatterer, I
Speaker 1: happen to have met Sarma and her ex husband. So
Speaker 1: when I saw this documentary, I was shocked because I
Speaker 1: knew some of the people which had happened with the
Speaker 1: Tinder Swindler doc too. I had met that freak one
Speaker 1: time at a party and had his business card, the
Speaker 1: Diamond guy or the so called diamond guy. So sometimes
Speaker 1: I'll see something and say, wait a second, I know
Speaker 1: some of those people. I ate that Lasagna. I wow.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to have her on because it involves
Speaker 1: so many elements, so many things in this recipe, So
Speaker 1: many things in this raw foods recipe. Abuse, mental abuse,
Speaker 1: psychological abuse, uh, swindling, stealing money, not paying people, like,
Speaker 1: so many accusations, gambling, addiction, you know, cult like tactics.
Speaker 1: I wanted to have Sarma on. I want to hear
Speaker 1: her take. There's so much to this that I really
Speaker 1: want to dig into this. And this is a very
Speaker 1: different interview than any interview that I've ever done. Years ago,
Speaker 1: So I lived in Chicago and for about a year
Speaker 1: I was I was raw long before it was popular.
Speaker 1: I was a natural food chef in you know, before
Speaker 1: nine eleven so um. And there was a woman named
Speaker 1: Karen h k a r y n that had a
Speaker 1: cafe and she was raw and she had studied with
Speaker 1: Anne Wigmore and about all the wheat grass and all this,
Speaker 1: like really what was really extreme, particularly in Chicago. So
Speaker 1: I've met Giuliano the raw chef, and like a lot
Speaker 1: of those other alternative people through that world. And I've
Speaker 1: seen in New York all the different raw food cafes
Speaker 1: that were really really edgy. UM. So I was aware
Speaker 1: of Matthew even before you guys opened pure and one
Speaker 1: Lucky Duck. He was doing something with Russell Simmons for
Speaker 1: his Jivamook de Cafes, and we connected, and I had
Speaker 1: wheat eggon dairy cookies, wheat egg and dairy free cookies,
Speaker 1: so I was baking them for him in conjunction with
Speaker 1: this cafe. And then he started to do something else.
Speaker 1: I don't remember what that was. But then I remember
Speaker 1: hearing about pure food and wine and going and the
Speaker 1: zuki famous zuchina lasagna, and then going to see the
Speaker 1: place in Chelsea Market One Lucky Duck with those like
Speaker 1: spiced cash ews and that stuff, and and and I
Speaker 1: met you there not no doing any of this stuff like,
Speaker 1: which hadn't happened yet, but I met you, I saw
Speaker 1: you were in the store. So so I say this
Speaker 1: whole story for the listeners and for you, because hey,
Speaker 1: I have no idea if you're aware of me. But
Speaker 1: I didn't know about any of this. I'm not like
Speaker 1: I'm sort of in my own world in many cases,
Speaker 1: so I didn't know about any of this until people
Speaker 1: started saying, you need to see the show. I want
Speaker 1: to hear your comment on bad vegans. Still didn't even
Speaker 1: know that you were that person. Then some of it
Speaker 1: works with me, said it too. Then like watched it,
Speaker 1: looked it up. I'm like, I know her, I know him,
Speaker 1: I know Jeffrey Chattero, I know all these people like
Speaker 1: I know. So that was crazy. So that's like where
Speaker 1: I came into it from. And I watched the Netflix
Speaker 1: special and then had my opinion, which we'll get into,
Speaker 1: and then reached out to you. So I don't know
Speaker 1: what you know about all that, but that was like
Speaker 1: shocking to me. I did. I did listen to Um.
Speaker 1: I went and looked at your podcast and I saw
Speaker 1: a couple of them had mentioned bad vegans, and I
Speaker 1: went and listened to that and and um. And then
Speaker 1: I had forgotten that you knew Matthew from way back,
Speaker 1: which was kind of reassuring to me, because um, he's
Speaker 1: UM yeah, I think you said a few things that
Speaker 1: indicated that you kind of know things about him that
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't necessarily know. And so I
Speaker 1: kind of stepped into a situation with him that had
Speaker 1: some similarities to the one I've then later stepped into
Speaker 1: with the you know the guy in the in the film.
Speaker 1: So to let the viewers the listeners know this guy, Matthew,
Speaker 1: a good looking, healthy chef, talk of the town. I'm
Speaker 1: just you know. I met him and we were gonna
Speaker 1: I was gonna bake my wheat, egg and dairy free
Speaker 1: cookies for him. I was running a natural food cafe.
Speaker 1: He was like all over the place. I don't remember him,
Speaker 1: not like paying me or not being what he said
Speaker 1: it was going to be. It didn't seem like he
Speaker 1: was a bad person. It seemed like he was all
Speaker 1: over the place and moving from one thing to the next,
Speaker 1: getting new partner to start a new exciting thing, and
Speaker 1: then a new partner to do this. And he's very charming,
Speaker 1: and he meets a lot of different people, and he's
Speaker 1: always onto another thing, is what it seems like. And
Speaker 1: I think he's talented because I've seen him open these
Speaker 1: new restaurants and the Vegan Mexican and the Vegan Italian
Speaker 1: and all these places in New York, and then there's
Speaker 1: something in Miami, but then it's gone, then there's something
Speaker 1: a new. So he's done a good job of moving
Speaker 1: in a lot of circles. And I don't know where
Speaker 1: anyting lands, but that was my perspective. And then seeing
Speaker 1: that you guys were together and then go into your cafe. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well he and I got involved, um before either of
Speaker 1: us even knew what raw food was, and so I
Speaker 1: got involved in his restaurants and and then also sort
Speaker 1: of taken down as they all closed. Um. So that
Speaker 1: was a bummer for me. Uh, you know, that left
Speaker 1: me with some negative consequences that were ongoing, um, financially,
Speaker 1: you know after we split, so and then you know,
Speaker 1: and then we opened Pure Free and One together and
Speaker 1: then we split a later um. And then yeah, from
Speaker 1: there on, I continued running it on my own. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I watched Bad Vegan, and I commented that it
Speaker 1: felt like you were in a one person cult, and um,
Speaker 1: I washed with my fiance, and many people were very
Speaker 1: skeptical and thought you were part of it, etcetera. I
Speaker 1: didn't really think about that because it seemed very convoluted,
Speaker 1: like that would have been a really big complicated trip
Speaker 1: to go on. I don't mean your road trip, I
Speaker 1: mean like to go on to be involved, it seems
Speaker 1: like and for what benefit. Yeah, it seems like you
Speaker 1: just got like immersed and enveloped in this thing, and
Speaker 1: it went deeper and deeper, and it does feel like
Speaker 1: a Ponzi scheme in the sense that you were deeper
Speaker 1: and deeper, and I'm sure you knew something was wrong,
Speaker 1: but I don't think you knew exactly what was wrong,
Speaker 1: and I don't think you knew how to get out.
Speaker 1: And I think that it might also have had something
Speaker 1: to do with your previous relationships. I really need to
Speaker 1: hear from you what went down like about that does
Speaker 1: the relationship and getting in so deep when you see
Speaker 1: the numbers, So what went down? Well, I think I
Speaker 1: heard you say that in a in another podcast as well,
Speaker 1: and that is entirely correct. The cult of one dynamic
Speaker 1: because um, you know, on the other side of this,
Speaker 1: people who've been in cults and gotten out. Those are
Speaker 1: like my people. We understand each other, and there's so
Speaker 1: many similarities between um, this guy and other cult leaders,
Speaker 1: so you know, those people have a lot of similarities.
Speaker 1: And then the tactics that they used to pull people
Speaker 1: in our um pretty much almost the same. So when
Speaker 1: I part a lot of my healing involved hearing the
Speaker 1: stories of people who've been in cults. Um. I'm friends
Speaker 1: with Sarah Edmondson from Nexium, So that whole situation with
Speaker 1: Coprain area. I've paid a lot of attention to that
Speaker 1: and the people coming out of it talking about, um,
Speaker 1: you know, the realizations they've had because what happens is
Speaker 1: on the other side of it, everybody's going, I don't understand,
Speaker 1: how could you not see it? How come you didn't run?
Speaker 1: How come and there? And what happened? The same thing
Speaker 1: happens to people who are in cults because it seems insane,
Speaker 1: and people don't understand how communicant run, how communicant called
Speaker 1: the police and and the problem is that on the
Speaker 1: other side of it, we all have the very same questions,
Speaker 1: Like you know, we come out of it having the
Speaker 1: same questions like I don't wait, why didn't I run?
Speaker 1: You know? And what happens is um which I think
Speaker 1: that it would help if more people understood this so
Speaker 1: they could hopefully avoid it. But um, you know, is
Speaker 1: is the extent to which your mind gets manipulated, I
Speaker 1: think is underestimated. And then in particular, there's uh assumption
Speaker 1: that if you're a smart, intelligent person, you couldn't be manipulated.
Speaker 1: And people will say that all that they say, oh, well,
Speaker 1: that would never happen to me, or they say that
Speaker 1: or think that, Um, but it could. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: certainly certain personality types that are far more susceptible, and
Speaker 1: I'm definitely one of those. But intelligence has absolutely nothing
Speaker 1: to do with it. And in fact, like um, you know,
Speaker 1: successful people, I mean, this has happened to a number
Speaker 1: a ton of women who have been successful and have
Speaker 1: build something and created something and then have it, you know,
Speaker 1: taken down and um in this sort of fiery crash,
Speaker 1: and in my case, in a way that made it
Speaker 1: look like I had done it. UM. So yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: not only was everything destroyed and I felt horrifically awful
Speaker 1: about it, and you know, all these people were hurt,
Speaker 1: and everything I've spent all these years building and creating
Speaker 1: UM was gone. But all these people I cared for
Speaker 1: were hurt. And then layer on top of that that
Speaker 1: it was made to look like it was my fault
Speaker 1: or intentional in some way, which doesn't really make sense
Speaker 1: to me. But I can understand, you know, people being
Speaker 1: angry at me for not having seen what was going
Speaker 1: on or um. I mean, I can understand that that
Speaker 1: part of it, but thinking that there was some malist
Speaker 1: on my part, UM doesn't really make any sense. Whatsoever
Speaker 1: with the facts of the situation. Um, and I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, I've been very public about the way the
Speaker 1: film was presented, and I wrote a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: on my website clarifying all these questions that people had
Speaker 1: and the incorrect the things that were portrayed, um, incorrectly.
Speaker 1: So I kind of wrote all this stuff, put it
Speaker 1: out there. It's there. Um, and I've been please that
Speaker 1: at least some people they have gone and um, you know,
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of massachution people who say I
Speaker 1: watched it, I was confused at the end. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm really glad I found your website and read, you know,
Speaker 1: read what happened, and now I understand better. So um yeah,
Speaker 1: and now I'm kind of trying to come out there
Speaker 1: and be talk about it in a way that's helpful
Speaker 1: for people. Okay, So I want to break down a
Speaker 1: few things. First of all, I'm not a gotcha person.
Speaker 1: I'm not like bringing people on here. I've been on
Speaker 1: shows or so much as to like catch me in something,
Speaker 1: and I'm not doing that. But I'm not going to
Speaker 1: just you know, I've I've got it. I'm speaking for
Speaker 1: people and myself, and I want to like break this down,
Speaker 1: because they're always multiple sides. And I'm sure you sure
Speaker 1: you're gonna take some responsibility for this because you're not
Speaker 1: just a victim of something that happened. You definitely participated
Speaker 1: in some way, I imagine. I don't mean like ripping
Speaker 1: people off per se. I just mean we all have
Speaker 1: accept some level of responsibility for the situations that we're in.
Speaker 1: I think, I think, and you may correct me so
Speaker 1: as far as the dynamic with the person, when when
Speaker 1: you say could happened to anybody, do you feel if
Speaker 1: there's an element where you get together in the beginning
Speaker 1: and it feels great and you feel loved or you
Speaker 1: feel connected, and then you're constantly chasing the dragon to
Speaker 1: get back to that, Like that's how it keeps going.
Speaker 1: First it's amazing, and you fall for that, and then
Speaker 1: something isn't great, but then something great happens and you
Speaker 1: keep going back, and then you get deeper and deeper.
Speaker 1: Like what about that element of just people who gets
Speaker 1: sucked into someone else's wartax? It has happened to me.
Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily someone who was abusing me by any
Speaker 1: means or um. It wasn't someone who abused me, but
Speaker 1: it was something where there was no reason I would
Speaker 1: stay in this situation, and I kept staying in it
Speaker 1: because I kept thinking like I was imagining it or
Speaker 1: that it would get better, because I was going back
Speaker 1: to some stuff from the beginning. And also what was
Speaker 1: going on in my own life was I was feeling
Speaker 1: alone and it was the only thing that I really
Speaker 1: had going And sometimes as you're older, you don't really
Speaker 1: want to go look for something or be alone, and
Speaker 1: so it's the most familiar thing to you. So I
Speaker 1: want to talk about that aspect of just the interpersonal
Speaker 1: getting like staying with something that is obviously unhealthy, for
Speaker 1: getting cult or anything like that, just that that dynamic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's all related. Um. In my case, I
Speaker 1: think it's very very common that there's this period of
Speaker 1: time that people call love bombing in what's being termed
Speaker 1: narcissistic abuse type relationships. UM, And that wasn't really the
Speaker 1: case in my situation. UM, you know, it was a
Speaker 1: bit more complicated than that. But whatever, you know, what
Speaker 1: happened happened so gradually over a long period of time.
Speaker 1: And what's shocking to me, UM, when I've gone back
Speaker 1: and read the correspondence that I was able to retrieve,
Speaker 1: which is only some of it, not all of it, um,
Speaker 1: And he had tried to delete everything, so he you know,
Speaker 1: he tried to like wipe out all the you know,
Speaker 1: evidence of everything, which is pretty telling, and I'm trying
Speaker 1: to recover it all, um. But looking back at it
Speaker 1: and reading all of it was you know, it's me
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's happening. And what was shocking
Speaker 1: is how many times. I mean, I did remember this,
Speaker 1: the number of times in the beginning that I tried
Speaker 1: to push him out and get rid of him, and
Speaker 1: then one way or another he would kind of get
Speaker 1: back in charming by charming you in some way it
Speaker 1: was less charming and more like sometimes circumstantial. And then also, um,
Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly the timing of it, but once
Speaker 1: he got me to give him money, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: claiming of like some kind of insane emergency and he
Speaker 1: needed it right away. And so if you're kind of
Speaker 1: a kind generous person and you're not, you're not by
Speaker 1: nature suspicious, um, you know, so I was able to
Speaker 1: give him some money. But then that was like the
Speaker 1: hook that because if there were times in the future
Speaker 1: where he would say, um, well i'm gonna bring you money.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna come, I'm gonna pay you back, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: bring you money. And then I'd be like okay, And
Speaker 1: so he'd come, you know, see me over the weekend,
Speaker 1: and maybe he'd bring me some money, but not what
Speaker 1: he said it was, and it wasn't, you know, even
Speaker 1: half of what I had loaned him. And but then
Speaker 1: he'd be in front of me, and for some reason,
Speaker 1: whenever I was in his presence, it was a lot
Speaker 1: harder to um. It was as if he had more
Speaker 1: power when we were when he was in front of
Speaker 1: me in ways that I don't you know that I
Speaker 1: still don't quite fully understand. So so the but the
Speaker 1: hook being you said circumstantial, that makes some sense. If
Speaker 1: you disconnect from him, you're not going to get the
Speaker 1: rest of the money. And when you say circumstantial, did
Speaker 1: he often says it seemed like he was going to
Speaker 1: solve certain problems for you. You I'll handle this for you,
Speaker 1: and you sort of like had these false hopes of
Speaker 1: these different things that he was promising you. So that
Speaker 1: was another hook. Is that is that accurate or now? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that I heard described something that made
Speaker 1: so much sense to me and sort of answered, you know,
Speaker 1: an open question that I had was UM. A guy
Speaker 1: named Mark Presente who was in the Next Um Cult
Speaker 1: and he's in that UM that documentary of the HBO
Speaker 1: The Vow, and he that they in a podcast with
Speaker 1: Sarah and Nippy who are also in it. They were
Speaker 1: talking about UM. You know, because that guy keithri and
Speaker 1: Are is really goofy and people look at him and think,
Speaker 1: how could everybody have since worshiped him as if he
Speaker 1: was some kind of a god, and how could they
Speaker 1: believe that, you know, these outlandish claims he made about
Speaker 1: himself being, you know, the smartest person in the world
Speaker 1: and all these ridiculous claims looking back, And something that
Speaker 1: Mark said that made so much sense to me was UM.
Speaker 1: And I'm completely paraphrasing, and I probably should have I
Speaker 1: wrote it all down somewhere, but that it's what they do,
Speaker 1: is they find they find a way of presenting you
Speaker 1: with like your idealized self, so all your kind of
Speaker 1: hopes and dreams and and who you really want to be.
Speaker 1: And in my case it was UM, I wanted to
Speaker 1: be independent and able to grow my business and you know,
Speaker 1: and do good things and build this brand and be
Speaker 1: independent and free. And that's kind of what he um
Speaker 1: not necessarily directly, but that's kind of what he got
Speaker 1: me attached to. Was as if he could enable me
Speaker 1: and he could get me there or he could deliver
Speaker 1: that um and and things were never stated explicitly, so
Speaker 1: it was always kind of very vague, but it's like,
Speaker 1: that's what I got attached to because I never understood.
Speaker 1: People would say to me like, well, you know, you
Speaker 1: you know the things you do for love, and I
Speaker 1: was like, it's not quite. That's not right. It's not
Speaker 1: like I might have in some way I felt like
Speaker 1: I loved him, especially early on, but you know, even
Speaker 1: in the beginning it, you know, from what I read
Speaker 1: in our correspondence and what I remember, I mean, I
Speaker 1: was afraid of him. I didn't, you know, even the
Speaker 1: first time he saw me. After that, the first time
Speaker 1: I saw him in person after that, I was like, uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't. You know, he's not really what I
Speaker 1: thought he was going to be. I shouldn't see him again.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like this love attachment. And I think
Speaker 1: what happened was um you know what, but like him
Speaker 1: are extremely good at which is dangerous is reading people
Speaker 1: and very very quickly understanding precisely what are your buttons,
Speaker 1: what are your weaknesses, what are your hopes and dreams?
Speaker 1: What can he You know, he would know exactly what
Speaker 1: types of things to say, and you know subtly that
Speaker 1: would get me unconsciously attached or hooked. Well, that's that's
Speaker 1: what they do. So I guess if we're not realizing
Speaker 1: that someone, it's much easier to be scammed. I mean,
Speaker 1: if a person, if they are the scammer and that's
Speaker 1: what they do, and you have no idea it's coming,
Speaker 1: you're just wide open as a human being. And that's
Speaker 1: why many of us get less trusting. But it's funny
Speaker 1: that you brought up the guy from Nexium to Keith,
Speaker 1: because I call it with women, um in, non non
Speaker 1: cult leaders. I mean, I call them trick guys, men
Speaker 1: who seem they're not that go looking, they're not like
Speaker 1: that being stud and so you think they're going to
Speaker 1: be safe because what the hell you know? They can't
Speaker 1: get they can't get anyone. They're gonna be loyal to you,
Speaker 1: they're not that attractive, they're sort of dorky. So, but
Speaker 1: they can be very dangerous because they probably have a
Speaker 1: lot of insecurities from not being the best looking person,
Speaker 1: the best looking man, and you know, now they have
Speaker 1: something to prove in life. Yeah, I think that, um,
Speaker 1: all of all what you said is correct. I've always
Speaker 1: been much better at if somebody is coming at me.
Speaker 1: My instinct is not you know, I'm not good with founder.
Speaker 1: I have not historically been good with boundaries. Um. If
Speaker 1: somebody mistreated um, well I avoid conflict, um, but just
Speaker 1: not not good at kind of not good at protecting myself.
Speaker 1: But if somebody and this is this happened a number
Speaker 1: of times, if somebody mistreated one of my employees or Leon,
Speaker 1: my dog, It's like I would turn into a roaring lion,
Speaker 1: like I have yelled at people and you know, demand
Speaker 1: and that, you know, how dare you speak to her
Speaker 1: like that, get out, you know, get the funk out
Speaker 1: of here or whatever. I would. I have screamed at
Speaker 1: people in the restaurant to get the funk out, like
Speaker 1: how dare you you know, say that to one of
Speaker 1: my hosts and so on? Behalf of somebody else I
Speaker 1: can turn into, uh, you know, like this Mama Bear defender.
Speaker 1: But what about your mother? When? What about your mother? When?
Speaker 1: So I saw in the documentary that he was this
Speaker 1: what's his name again? The man? Sorry, well, his real
Speaker 1: name is Anthony Strangers and in my book, so I'm
Speaker 1: I'm working, I'm almost done with a book, but I
Speaker 1: call him Mr Fox. So, Mr Fox, you did not
Speaker 1: find out until the very end that he was taking
Speaker 1: money from your mother? I think, yeah, So I was
Speaker 1: in um, I was in the Tennessee jail talking to
Speaker 1: my sister, uh when I found out, you know, how
Speaker 1: much he had taken from my mom. So I mean
Speaker 1: I think, I, you know, to be to be completely forthright,
Speaker 1: I think I knew that he must have I knew
Speaker 1: that he must have been I knew that he was
Speaker 1: kind of getting money. Like sometimes he would, uh you know,
Speaker 1: have her, have me send money to her, and then
Speaker 1: she would give it to him. And so I kind
Speaker 1: of you know, I think I knew at times that
Speaker 1: she had given him money and then you know, I
Speaker 1: thought he gave it back to her or um, you know,
Speaker 1: and I think I knew that he must have taken
Speaker 1: some from her. But you know, when I when I
Speaker 1: heard the amount and it was like it was just
Speaker 1: one of those many moments that I had where I
Speaker 1: just you know, fantasized a meteor hitting the earth exactly
Speaker 1: where I was at that moment, because I just wanted to, like,
Speaker 1: you know, curl up and die. Because I would say,
Speaker 1: that's the line if you had any idea that his
Speaker 1: he was he was manipulating your mother, that I would
Speaker 1: think you would kill him, like I would think you
Speaker 1: would grab him by the juggule, like go for the juggular.
Speaker 1: How much did he take from your mom? And how
Speaker 1: much from you? What's the grand tally? Um? I think
Speaker 1: I believe from my mother he got over four roughly
Speaker 1: four hundred fifty grand, which you know she didn't have
Speaker 1: my mom's and she runs a business, so um that
Speaker 1: put her in a really compromised position. Um, which has
Speaker 1: been among the worst parts of this the aftermath. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, it's one thing if he only took from
Speaker 1: me and I was the only one that was harmed,
Speaker 1: but all the other people being harmed as well, it's
Speaker 1: most difficult to deal with. And then for me, Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know that I ever did like a precise total,
Speaker 1: because it's also a lot of it was in cash
Speaker 1: and um, not a lot, but some of it. But anyway,
Speaker 1: I think it was you know, it was over um,
Speaker 1: over two million dollars she said he got from me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I you know, I was in I mean, part
Speaker 1: of what made me feel held back when he came
Speaker 1: and found me was, um, you know that after my
Speaker 1: relationship with Matthew, I was in a lot of debt
Speaker 1: from that and I carried that and it was this
Speaker 1: kind of it was a big weight and it was
Speaker 1: you know, and then I had but you know, effectively
Speaker 1: bought the restaurant from Jeffrey Chattero for a note, so
Speaker 1: I owed that money. So I just felt sort of
Speaker 1: I had been saddled with debt. And it's something hit
Speaker 1: me the other day where I realized that it's been
Speaker 1: twenty years that I've been a human being with like
Speaker 1: unreeldy unmanageable, uh, large amounts of debt on It's been
Speaker 1: twenty years, and I felt a lot of Yeah, what
Speaker 1: is it now? What is the debt now? Um? I
Speaker 1: think I said at the end of the film, um,
Speaker 1: And then people acted like I didn't care because I laughed.
Speaker 1: But I laughed because when I sat down and did
Speaker 1: a rough total with a friend of mine. The number
Speaker 1: that I came to was so large that it just
Speaker 1: seemed like you know what I mean, it was like
Speaker 1: it it made me laugh in a like holy sh
Speaker 1: it kind of a way. Um, but it's it's you
Speaker 1: between four and six million. But you know, again, I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know, because there's you know, in some some
Speaker 1: places that you know who knows interest and penalties, and
Speaker 1: and then there are some people. You know, I've heard
Speaker 1: from some people who said, like, you know, oh, I've
Speaker 1: written it off, don't worry. But so I don't know
Speaker 1: the exact total, but it's something that I have to do. Um,
Speaker 1: I will, you know. I sort of fantasize about the
Speaker 1: day that it's completely paid and done. I get it. Um.
Speaker 1: So the employee, there's a lot to go through. So
Speaker 1: that's why I'm like, I want to make sure to
Speaker 1: try to get to a lot of it. Many people
Speaker 1: listening may not even realize that you were, uh, in
Speaker 1: a relationship with a man who just kept, like like
Speaker 1: the Tender Swindler times ten, kept asking for more and
Speaker 1: more money, and you've got deeper and deeper. So I
Speaker 1: just want people to like sort of a lot of
Speaker 1: people know the story of it, maybe a lot don't.
Speaker 1: So what about the employees, Now that's that's a big
Speaker 1: hot ticket item. The employees who you seem to have
Speaker 1: a great relationship with, they were skeptical of this relationship
Speaker 1: with uh this Fox this Mr Fox and then you
Speaker 1: owed them? What did you? What did you owe the
Speaker 1: employees when you ran? And they were all picketing outside
Speaker 1: the restaurant? Like, what's the actual number in totality? So
Speaker 1: here's where And we'll get into the whole Netflix thing too.
Speaker 1: You can talk about it, know what I'm saying. We're
Speaker 1: going to get into everything and the inaccuracies, if there
Speaker 1: are right and so among them is like I didn't run,
Speaker 1: and also they they they were um, they were paid
Speaker 1: and then he took me away and then they were
Speaker 1: not paid and therefore owed money. So it's not like
Speaker 1: I didn't pay them and then ran. Okay, but what
Speaker 1: does that mean? But what does that mean? He took
Speaker 1: you away? You you went away? I'm saying like you're
Speaker 1: saying like in the cult mentality, you just were brainwash
Speaker 1: and went like you did go away from your This
Speaker 1: is now getting interesting because the cult people go there
Speaker 1: and live there, and they're living that world and in
Speaker 1: many cases they're farming and having sex with each other,
Speaker 1: and like it's one like world. You still have a
Speaker 1: business that you're running with people that aren't in this cult,
Speaker 1: and so like you are like still living in the
Speaker 1: world of having your own apartment. So so now you're
Speaker 1: like leaving the people that work for you that you're
Speaker 1: paying in a transactional business way and going awfully took you.
Speaker 1: So that's where it gets strange and different. So I
Speaker 1: want to really understand what that part means, because you're
Speaker 1: leaving people, But then what do you mean what would
Speaker 1: the show's movie shows that they're picketing while you're gone
Speaker 1: or something? So can you explain what happened financially with
Speaker 1: these employees? Well, you know, I only found out after
Speaker 1: the fact, but um, what does what does that mean? Meaning?
Speaker 1: Like when I was arrested in Tennessee, when I when
Speaker 1: I first spoke to somebody, anybody, my sister, whoever it
Speaker 1: was that I first spoke to from there, Um she
Speaker 1: could have told me that the restaurant was still open
Speaker 1: because somebody had kind of stepped in and taken over
Speaker 1: and and it was still running for all I knew,
Speaker 1: and so the entire whatever, I literally don't understand. Who
Speaker 1: would have said, isn't it your restaurant? Yes? But I
Speaker 1: mean theoretically somebody I don't know. Again, I just it's
Speaker 1: hard to explain. It's like somebody taking me and putting
Speaker 1: me in a quasi comma for nine months, right, But
Speaker 1: you can't say someone could have cut Like, no one
Speaker 1: could come in here and do this podcast for me
Speaker 1: today because I've like decided to go somewhere even if
Speaker 1: I'm in a coma. I'm just saying, like that thought
Speaker 1: of someone could come in, like it is your restaurant
Speaker 1: that you owe Jeffrey Chatterw money for it, I'm not
Speaker 1: really could have you know, theoretically, I suppose in terms
Speaker 1: of like who would have had the legal authority, you know,
Speaker 1: he probably had the legal authority to come in or
Speaker 1: somebody I don't know, But there's no like someone could
Speaker 1: have the legal authority to come in. But like there
Speaker 1: needs to be a conversation. It's a restaurant with like
Speaker 1: raw food recipes, like someone can had to show up
Speaker 1: and start making zucchini lasagna with dehydrated you know, and
Speaker 1: and cash you like cheese, Like it's so, what was
Speaker 1: the conversation when you're leaving, Like, isn't it like I'm
Speaker 1: leaving my raw food restaurant, So Jeffrey, like you just
Speaker 1: walked out of there, and like the employees can't run
Speaker 1: a restaurant. Employees can't run my business. Oh mine could have.
Speaker 1: They could have. This is where, you know, part of
Speaker 1: the reason why I feel so close to people who've
Speaker 1: been in cults is because you know, when I say
Speaker 1: things that night sound kind of crazy or hard to
Speaker 1: understand that other people, um the sort of former cult
Speaker 1: people to get it. So when he told me that,
Speaker 1: like to think of it as if time stopped and
Speaker 1: we were just sort of like, you know, we had
Speaker 1: to we had to step away. We had to we
Speaker 1: had to walk away, and like being this altered like
Speaker 1: um universe basically Yeah, So it was like as if
Speaker 1: as if it wasn't real in a way, and I
Speaker 1: and that sounds bonkers, but you know, there was a
Speaker 1: moment um A guy that I know who was in
Speaker 1: the Moonies and has since become a psychologist and gone
Speaker 1: on to write really helpful books about cult psychology, UM
Speaker 1: and talking about his experience on the Leamy on Leah
Speaker 1: Remnis show. He said, at one point, he said, if
Speaker 1: they had told me to kill somebody, I would have
Speaker 1: and you know I wouldn't have. You know, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have killed somebody. I could. I'm pretty sure I could
Speaker 1: say that I wouldn't have killed somebody. But I understood
Speaker 1: the you know that it was painful to hear. Painful,
Speaker 1: but also it's so tragic. It was tragic to hear
Speaker 1: because I understood that. I understood how it could get
Speaker 1: to that point, and so um so his taking me
Speaker 1: away and and telling me that. Basically, it's to think
Speaker 1: of it as if time, like as if the rest
Speaker 1: of the world time stopped and we were like slipping
Speaker 1: into an alternate like you know, some sort of parallel universe.
Speaker 1: You know, I think I just you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's as if like I was some sort of subdued
Speaker 1: animal that just became um, you know, somebody who he
Speaker 1: could do this too. And you know, when I when
Speaker 1: I talk about that time away sort of in shorthand,
Speaker 1: I just you know, it's like I refer to it
Speaker 1: as like the road trip from Hell, because um, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's been sort of painful for it to be
Speaker 1: depicted in you know, originally in the sort of tabloid
Speaker 1: media and whatnot, as if like we ran off and
Speaker 1: you know, when we're staying yeah, and like living the
Speaker 1: high life and being and and and the reality was
Speaker 1: so wildly, wildly different from that. The reality was more
Speaker 1: like those videos that he had taken of me. Well,
Speaker 1: that's okay, So I have a couple of questions about that.
Speaker 1: So now you're away, So can you just tell me
Speaker 1: the number with the employees and where the money went
Speaker 1: and where that is now, and what they're what they
Speaker 1: all feel about it, what they all think about this
Speaker 1: whole thing that they've been through. Well, the other it
Speaker 1: was it was my impression, and I thought that I
Speaker 1: was told that the end of the film was going
Speaker 1: to state that they had all been paid because they've
Speaker 1: been paid. They were paid in um or the amount
Speaker 1: that they were owed was paid. Um. Yeah. So so normally,
Speaker 1: you know, one doesn't the thing about documentaries, which I
Speaker 1: think I think there needs to be like a new category,
Speaker 1: because you know, I say that bad being into like
Speaker 1: should not be called a documentary. But normally people don't
Speaker 1: get paid so um. On the one hand, you know,
Speaker 1: people were assuming that I must have been paid millions
Speaker 1: of dollars. I was not, but I was given an
Speaker 1: amount that covered what the employees were owed. And so
Speaker 1: you know when when that sort of went through, because
Speaker 1: I agreed to participate, but I wanted that amount, that
Speaker 1: amount that they were owed to get paid. Is that
Speaker 1: why you did it? Well? I mean, I mean I
Speaker 1: thought it was gonna I wanted it to be something
Speaker 1: that would be useful and helpful, and so I wanted
Speaker 1: to do I wanted to tell the story. Um. But
Speaker 1: I also you know, but I also wanted my employees paid.
Speaker 1: So I worked that out as part of the deal.
Speaker 1: So they were paid in March of it. Like just
Speaker 1: so happened that the Wired situation went through the day
Speaker 1: that New York City of restaurants were shut down because
Speaker 1: of the pandemic. Um. So I felt like that was
Speaker 1: a good day for a lot of them who were
Speaker 1: probably still in the restaurant business to get kind of
Speaker 1: work that like, you know, the money's there, they can
Speaker 1: whatever they were owed. Um, and what have they said?
Speaker 1: Where are they with it? Now? Do you talk to
Speaker 1: any of them? Like is it clean? I do? I
Speaker 1: talked to a lot of them, I mean, with all
Speaker 1: of the ones that I talked to in particular are
Speaker 1: the ones who were there for a long time, who
Speaker 1: knew me really well, and I think they knew, you know,
Speaker 1: they knew me really well, as did a lot of
Speaker 1: customers and sort of followers. Knew me well enough to
Speaker 1: know that that business was my whole life of that
Speaker 1: brand was like my identity. So they knew that that,
Speaker 1: like they knew that something terrible happened, not that I
Speaker 1: would have destroyed it, because that didn't make any sense.
Speaker 1: And it was a valuable brand and we had so
Speaker 1: many opportunities, so the idea that I would have willingly
Speaker 1: destroyed it made no sense. So even if they didn't,
Speaker 1: you know, even if they didn't understand what had happened,
Speaker 1: they knew that, like, something terrible happened, and that was
Speaker 1: the drastic and so even I mean, it was painful
Speaker 1: to see, like really painful to see those picketing images,
Speaker 1: but I understood. To me, I kind of almost thought
Speaker 1: of it as like as if because I had an
Speaker 1: almost maternal relationship with all of them, in some ways,
Speaker 1: I felt very protective of them, and so it was
Speaker 1: as if, like Mom, you know, got this boyfriend that
Speaker 1: she then went off the deep end with and abandoned them,
Speaker 1: and so, um, of course they were angry. But you
Speaker 1: know some of the people in those photos, Um, you
Speaker 1: know it happened. I think a couple of times that
Speaker 1: I ran into people just on the street in New
Speaker 1: York and it was like we immediately fall into a
Speaker 1: hug and I started crying. Wow. Um, so what about
Speaker 1: where is he now? What happened? Did he respond? Did
Speaker 1: he try to sue? Did what is he? Where did
Speaker 1: that guy go? And what happened to him? Um? There
Speaker 1: is an article written about where he is now, which, um,
Speaker 1: he's in uh somewhere outside of l A apparently, which
Speaker 1: is you know, good for me that he's on another coast. Um,
Speaker 1: And I had followed, you know, I used to look
Speaker 1: periodically every few weeks um before on Twitter, just to
Speaker 1: kind of you know, because when somebody like that is
Speaker 1: out there, you would rather keep tabs on him, which
Speaker 1: is kind of part of the reason why I was
Speaker 1: in touch with him on the first places. Like you'd
Speaker 1: rather know where they are than worried that they're gonna
Speaker 1: you know, so I would I would kind of periodically
Speaker 1: look at his Twitter, and I did see and then
Speaker 1: he got booted off of Twitter. Um I don't know why,
Speaker 1: but I can imagine he said something whatever. But um,
Speaker 1: before that, I saw from some of the pictures, and
Speaker 1: like I knew he had gone to ally, but as
Speaker 1: a functioning individual, like as as what name as a no,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean as as pretending he's I'm just
Speaker 1: saying he's not. He's not been arrested. It's like a
Speaker 1: tender swinow who's just living his life and no problem.
Speaker 1: Well we were both arrested in Tennessee, that's right. And
Speaker 1: then what happened was I got out on bail. He didn't,
Speaker 1: so he stayed. Uh, he stayed at Riker's for a year.
Speaker 1: And then I got I got out on bail. You know,
Speaker 1: I thought my case, which was kind of pointless, and um,
Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't going to go to trial because
Speaker 1: I didn't have the stomach or the funds for that.
Speaker 1: So I did what a lot of people do and
Speaker 1: just you know, take take the plea. And then you know,
Speaker 1: the sickening thing was that I had to go and
Speaker 1: serve um my months at writer as I call it,
Speaker 1: my summer on the Island um after he was released,
Speaker 1: So I was locked up while he was out free.
Speaker 1: You know, now he's out free, clean slate, and I
Speaker 1: had clean What does that mean? Clean slate for him?
Speaker 1: Because I mean clean slate for him, because he's not
Speaker 1: saddled with the deck even though technically, um, I think
Speaker 1: we're jointly responsible for uh like roughly eight hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty thousand. But you know, he's one of those people
Speaker 1: that he's never going to pay a dime and he
Speaker 1: doesn't give a ship. So I will because I give
Speaker 1: a ship, and I'll figure out a way too, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll figure out some way down, you know, to to
Speaker 1: make that happen. So and it's your opinion that the
Speaker 1: money's gone, that it's gambled, that he's a gambler, and
Speaker 1: you didn't even realize what a gambler he was, right,
Speaker 1: And he didn't act like. He didn't he didn't act
Speaker 1: like I don't think he's a typical gambling addict. I
Speaker 1: think he's like more of the sociopathic variety where they
Speaker 1: kind of don't really care. They like the risk and
Speaker 1: the stimulation. And so it makes sense that he gambled,
Speaker 1: but not in a way that it's different than a
Speaker 1: typical um like when a normal person has a gambling addiction.
Speaker 1: It's like this tragic. It's very tragic because it's um,
Speaker 1: you know, because they're just they're destroying their lives and
Speaker 1: they're like losing money and they feel guilt and shame
Speaker 1: and la la la. He didn't none of that because
Speaker 1: it's not his own money. Maybe there's a difference in
Speaker 1: the emotional way you feel and it's not your own money,
Speaker 1: and it's just you're playing with the house is money.
Speaker 1: You're literally somebody like him. For me, if I was
Speaker 1: like investing money on behalf of other people and I
Speaker 1: lost it, I'd feel worse than I would. No, no, no no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm saying, right, Okay, that's an interesting for somebody who
Speaker 1: doesn't have a conscience, you know, it's just sort of
Speaker 1: like life as a game and destroying actually people was
Speaker 1: fun and um you know. And that's sort of the
Speaker 1: point because people also have asked me a lot um.
Speaker 1: You know, we were in this really strange town in
Speaker 1: Tennessee and people like, well, what were you doing there?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know, Well, what was the
Speaker 1: plan if you hadn't been arrested, Like what was the plan.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know. I have no idea. You know,
Speaker 1: I didn't know if he had any money in the end.
Speaker 1: I didn't know if he ran out of money. I
Speaker 1: didn't know if he maybe he got us arrested intentionally,
Speaker 1: which is I know sounds weird, but I think that
Speaker 1: might have been the case. Um so Uh. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of unanswered questions, but they make more sense in
Speaker 1: the context of him being um, the type of person
Speaker 1: that he is without without a conscience and him I
Speaker 1: don't think so. I think that I maybe thought that
Speaker 1: I was or um, it was more. It wasn't love.
Speaker 1: It was like this sort of sickening attachment, kind of
Speaker 1: like do you ever feel anything towards him in your mind?
Speaker 1: Like because it's in your body, having nothing to do
Speaker 1: with logic, Like you were like if you were in
Speaker 1: a cult, I wonder if you still do you still
Speaker 1: like if you saw him, would he have the potential
Speaker 1: to make you feel weak again in some way? Do
Speaker 1: you think that hold on you in some weird stick way. Um,
Speaker 1: I would be well, I would be afraid to see him,
Speaker 1: but I would feel like now, I mean, I would
Speaker 1: feel strong enough that I don't, you know, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: aware that, you know, he has this intense way of looking.
Speaker 1: I'm aware that he could say anything in you know,
Speaker 1: he could say all kinds of things, and you know,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't believe him unless he liked sprouted wings and
Speaker 1: you know, floated up in the air and turned into
Speaker 1: a you know, shape shifted into some other. Like basically,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't believe anything. Um, even though you probably didn't
Speaker 1: before too. Though it's different, like you don't believe them,
Speaker 1: but your body is believing them, Like you don't believe them,
Speaker 1: but you're still going in that direction, did you what's
Speaker 1: your relationship like with your parents? Now? Um, it's fine,
Speaker 1: it's good. I mean my you know, my my two
Speaker 1: my parents are both you know, they're very kind of
Speaker 1: down to earth, non judgmental people, and um, and it's
Speaker 1: to the extent that it's it's not strained with my mother,
Speaker 1: but I feel it's upsetting that I I sort of
Speaker 1: feel kind of queasy around her, not around her because
Speaker 1: of her, but because of the guilt that I feel
Speaker 1: like like all of that was my fault. And so
Speaker 1: the extent to which she's you know, still working and
Speaker 1: not retired or feel like that's my fault self consciousness. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we even um just the other day, I came
Speaker 1: up with that there's something she wanted to ask me about.
Speaker 1: So we agreed, we talked about it, but it's we
Speaker 1: haven't talked about all of it in as much detail
Speaker 1: as one would think. I think in part because we
Speaker 1: both find it kind of nauseating and like, you don't
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like, you don't you
Speaker 1: don't really want to go there. So there's even things
Speaker 1: where in writing my book, I'm I'm sort of like, well,
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, I have questions that I want
Speaker 1: to ask her, but then I don't even like but
Speaker 1: I don't want to. I don't want to put her
Speaker 1: in the position of having to go back there and remember.
Speaker 1: So I'm just like, well, I just won't get the
Speaker 1: answer to that question, you know what I mean. It's
Speaker 1: so that's that's how I do. I'm just my gut
Speaker 1: is saying to me, that's an interesting dynamic in your
Speaker 1: household that it's sort of like, let's just brush it
Speaker 1: under the rug and athlete didn't happen where it could
Speaker 1: be healing. But also maybe there's something to that dynamic
Speaker 1: that gravitated both of you towards this type of person
Speaker 1: that you both I don't want to say fell four
Speaker 1: because you both got brainwash, but there's a certain personality
Speaker 1: type I'm sure people target, and I just think it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Maybe you both should probably address it and start being
Speaker 1: the active participants versus the the people that thinks have
Speaker 1: been too. I just I'm not a shrink. I just
Speaker 1: that's the first thing that came to mind, Like you
Speaker 1: should just you you fucked up, and you put her
Speaker 1: in a position and you were burning washed and then
Speaker 1: she was brainwashed. It's a shitty situation. You feel guilty.
Speaker 1: You might as well just bring it out. Not on
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner, but I feel like you should probably just
Speaker 1: like lay it out. I mean, it's only we don't
Speaker 1: talk about it at all, but it's just that you know,
Speaker 1: the money is not everything, but this could this toxic,
Speaker 1: this toxin could probably it is bad. Is worse than
Speaker 1: losing money, I would say, So that's just that's my
Speaker 1: unsolicited opinion. You could throw it in the garbage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and things with my father are also fine. He um.
Speaker 1: He insisted on visiting me a lot when I was
Speaker 1: at writers, which I kept telling him he didn't need
Speaker 1: to do because it's it's not like you just show
Speaker 1: up and hey, I'm here and visit somebody. It's like
Speaker 1: a huge, huge ordeal and um he's you now, really
Speaker 1: good chape. But he came. I think he came like
Speaker 1: four times to see me, which he insisted on doing so.
Speaker 1: And what was that experience like that being in jail?
Speaker 1: I mean it was it's it's my book doesn't even
Speaker 1: go there. I'll have to write another because I don't
Speaker 1: have time to get into that. But it was its own, um,
Speaker 1: incredibly interesting experience that on the other side of it,
Speaker 1: I feel like, um, I'm really grateful for being exposed
Speaker 1: to things that, um it fall into that category of
Speaker 1: things that make you a more compassionate person. Um. I mean,
Speaker 1: were you terrified? And was it not as bad as
Speaker 1: you thought? Like what I don't even mean, I just yeah,
Speaker 1: just were you terrified? And what was it? What was
Speaker 1: it was? It? Was it a learning experience not just
Speaker 1: that you don't want to go back there, but just
Speaker 1: was there anything positive about being in prison? Um? I
Speaker 1: think positive and and I mean it was an amount
Speaker 1: of time that was. It was a bummer, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't like years, so it's not you know, I know
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that are falsely accused and
Speaker 1: convicted and go away for sometimes life and or even
Speaker 1: five years, ten years. That's all hideously awful. So you know,
Speaker 1: a summer effectively is not the end of the world. Um,
Speaker 1: but it still sucks, and it still sucks. It's still scary. UM.
Speaker 1: I think in the film they asked, um, the director
Speaker 1: asked my father if he was worried about me going
Speaker 1: to writers, and my father said, no, I knew should
Speaker 1: can handle herself. UM, which made me. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: some people thought that would upset me, but it actually
Speaker 1: made me feel good. UM that he like had confidence
Speaker 1: that I would be able to handle myself. UM. And
Speaker 1: I did, and towards you know, the more the longer
Speaker 1: I was there, the more comfortable I got, so UM.
Speaker 1: I also, Um, Well, the sentence was four months, but
Speaker 1: I had already served roughly two weeks or twenty days
Speaker 1: when I was first arrested before I was out on bail.
Speaker 1: So when I went back to do the remainder of
Speaker 1: the four months, it was like three and a half months,
Speaker 1: that's sometime. And yeah, it was the summer summer of
Speaker 1: sen so some people summer at the Hampton's summer that
Speaker 1: kers summers interesting, that's what crazy. Yeah, I mean there's
Speaker 1: there's a lot of a lot of crazy stuff happens there,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of stuff to see just about
Speaker 1: humanity in general. But um, but yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 1: something I could I could write a separate book about
Speaker 1: just that part of it. Yeah, did you keep in
Speaker 1: touch with anybody from prisonage? You meny interesting people there?
Speaker 1: Like did you learn something? Were they hard on you
Speaker 1: or just was it just just a crappy lodging experience
Speaker 1: with some discipline? Um, you know, I learned a lot
Speaker 1: um even now I think I have. You know, I
Speaker 1: haven't flown in a long time since before COVID, and
Speaker 1: so I was going through the security line and the
Speaker 1: way that, uh, they were sort of particularly grumpy t
Speaker 1: s A. You know, sometimes they're like happy and care
Speaker 1: and sometimes they're really grumpy and you're like afraid to like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm gonna like I supposed to take
Speaker 1: my laptop out and I didn't know what me And
Speaker 1: then you have to take your shoes off and you
Speaker 1: have to walk through the security thing and all of
Speaker 1: it all of a sudden and kind of the way
Speaker 1: they're dressed all of a sudden. I was like reminding
Speaker 1: me of being in jail. And I got through security
Speaker 1: and like burst into tears and I was like, WHOA,
Speaker 1: I guess that. I guess that still affects me in
Speaker 1: some way. Um. I was was not expecting. So there
Speaker 1: is there is um. Um. You know, there's something inherently
Speaker 1: sort of traumatic about being locked up. Um. But but
Speaker 1: also there were things about it that I mean, I
Speaker 1: read fifty plus books. I got a jillion letters from
Speaker 1: people that were incredibly kind and well like, I got
Speaker 1: tons of letters, people mailed me loads of books. Um.
Speaker 1: And the longer I was there, the more confident I
Speaker 1: got in terms of I just handled myself in a
Speaker 1: way that was very not I was able to like
Speaker 1: avoid any confrontation. So if somebody tried to engage me
Speaker 1: and getting a fight or start something, I was just like,
Speaker 1: you couldn't. It was like trying to fight a noodle,
Speaker 1: Like I wouldn't. I just wouldn't react. And UM, and
Speaker 1: I think the um, you know, the people that I
Speaker 1: was in the door because I was in a dorm
Speaker 1: with fifty other women and a lot of that. The
Speaker 1: population and there is constantly rotating, so there are always
Speaker 1: people coming in. But the people that were there the longest,
Speaker 1: um and the ones who sort of like ruled, you know,
Speaker 1: there's always like group dynamics is always like the ones
Speaker 1: that are in charge that everybody is afraid of. I
Speaker 1: have a good relationship with them. And yeah, so nobody,
Speaker 1: nobody really messed with me. Um wow, Okay, Well that's
Speaker 1: nice and lucky and a good story, because I wouldn't.
Speaker 1: It's all the movies for us. I think we it happened.
Speaker 1: It's it's really a big it happened. Like, you have
Speaker 1: a reason to feel guilty. You have a reason to
Speaker 1: self load, you have a reason to be self conscious.
Speaker 1: You have a reason for all these things you just said.
Speaker 1: But you need to fucking put that away now into
Speaker 1: a box. You could write a letter to all the
Speaker 1: ten people, the Jeffrey Child or everybody, and you need
Speaker 1: to seal that up with a key, and you need
Speaker 1: to go to work and make money and start paying
Speaker 1: these people back. Like if I understand you're upset, and
Speaker 1: you should be, but like if you if we think
Speaker 1: about what's going wrong. If I think about all the
Speaker 1: things that are going wrong, I can't do it. Like
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty successful and I make a lot of money,
Speaker 1: and I but like I go, so you have to,
Speaker 1: like just because I'm you've got to like become a
Speaker 1: little bit cold now. And it happened. I'm sorry to everybody.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Mom, I'm sorry. And now you have to
Speaker 1: pull yourself up in your bootstraps and start really making money,
Speaker 1: because then it can have an happy ending, like this
Speaker 1: can have a happy ending. Yeah, I mean, I actually
Speaker 1: I actually believe. And I think, um, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not like I'm sitting here alone eating bond bonds and
Speaker 1: trying all day at all. So and I think that
Speaker 1: you know what you said about putting it at a box. Um,
Speaker 1: some people have said, you know, why would you you know,
Speaker 1: why would you put yourself writing through the book? That
Speaker 1: must be so hard. And for me, I feel like
Speaker 1: that has been a necessary process to go through it,
Speaker 1: you know, put myself through having to read all this stuff,
Speaker 1: having to be really honest, and you know, writing, writing
Speaker 1: the story, writing my feelings, writing importantly, writing as much
Speaker 1: as I as much as I can figure out and um,
Speaker 1: be insightful about how it happened. Hopefully when other people
Speaker 1: read it, it will help them avoid stepping into the
Speaker 1: same thing. So once I'm done writing that, it's like
Speaker 1: then I feel like that that's and that's done, and
Speaker 1: now I can kind of now I can move on
Speaker 1: from trying to look at it and analyze it, and
Speaker 1: that will be a big relief, um, when that's done,
Speaker 1: and I can kind of focus this cluse of we
Speaker 1: on other things. And I am focusing on other things,
Speaker 1: and I have you know, some things that are in
Speaker 1: the works that will hopefully, um, you know, help me
Speaker 1: enable me to be able to go on and do
Speaker 1: some useful productive things. Yeah, like like document I'm going
Speaker 1: to make four millions doll this is it. I'm starting
Speaker 1: my journey right now. I'm going to make four million dollars.
Speaker 1: And this is what I'm gonna do. I'm bar attending,
Speaker 1: I'm an assistant, I'm dancing by the airport. Whatever you decide,
Speaker 1: you go and you're like, and then you show everybody
Speaker 1: I got I I I made a mistake. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: pay my mother back, I'm gonna pay Jeffy back, and
Speaker 1: I'm going for it. It It would just I feel like
Speaker 1: it would be like you survived Rikers, so like you,
Speaker 1: you don't think about the debt, don't think about the past.
Speaker 1: I can make four million dollars, so you can make
Speaker 1: four million dollars. So that's what I that's my I've
Speaker 1: been very unsolicited in my opinions, and I don't believe
Speaker 1: in them, so you can throw it all away. I
Speaker 1: just I don't know why this, just because I know
Speaker 1: all the people and because I saw it, and I
Speaker 1: don't know, and I just provoked me, so I wanted
Speaker 1: to sort of talk to you. And like the Pep,
Speaker 1: my fans were very invested in this too, So I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm trying to you know, get for them too,
Speaker 1: not just to talk to you about. And I think
Speaker 1: there's a you know, going forward, there's a um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think there will always be a balance of UM.
Speaker 1: I think I'll always I'll always talk about it to
Speaker 1: the extent that I feel like it's useful. Uh. And
Speaker 1: in particular because you know, a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of this sort of vitriol that's come at me and
Speaker 1: and people you know, yelling at me that it's my
Speaker 1: fault and I'm a criminal. And this I've heard from
Speaker 1: so many, mostly women, but some men, but mostly women,
Speaker 1: who will write me private messages that are absolutely heartbreaking,
Speaker 1: and um, I feel like because I have this, because
Speaker 1: what's happened to me is very public, and I have
Speaker 1: a platform that I feel I feel responsible, Like I
Speaker 1: feel like I want to speak out for them because
Speaker 1: they don't have a platform and they can't talk about it.
Speaker 1: And they always said, you know what they what I
Speaker 1: hear over and over and over again is um, you know,
Speaker 1: watching your story now I feel less alone or you know,
Speaker 1: and I get that happen that's happening to me. I
Speaker 1: get that, that's the equation. It's jumping off the page
Speaker 1: for me. The four to six million dollars, your mom,
Speaker 1: it's just jumping at me. I get that you're helping
Speaker 1: other people, you're paying for that's a touching story. And
Speaker 1: it is, and there are other people saying that story too,
Speaker 1: and the world, the people the victims of the tender Swindler,
Speaker 1: and the documentary showed it too. I think it should
Speaker 1: be doing that and check that box and figuring out
Speaker 1: a way to pay the like I owe nobody anything,
Speaker 1: and that would suffocate me, and that should be your
Speaker 1: main focus, not just helping it so that it could happen,
Speaker 1: but that should be the main focus. Just just like
Speaker 1: I'm so unsolicited, I totally apologize and I'm not coming
Speaker 1: I'm really not. I'm just passionate about this. I don't
Speaker 1: know what you know that reminds me of because I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm it is absolutely suffocating, and so you know, getting
Speaker 1: out from under that is is my main uh is
Speaker 1: my main priority. Um, but I did I think you
Speaker 1: asked me in the beginning, you know what I know.
Speaker 1: And I've never watched, Um, I've never watched Real Housewives
Speaker 1: because I can't like people fighting makes me upset. Again,
Speaker 1: I can't watch stuff like that what I did years
Speaker 1: ago when um, when Beth to Me was on I
Speaker 1: and I don't watch a lot of TV, but I
Speaker 1: got like sucked in and I watched all of that
Speaker 1: and I'll never forget one couple parts. But one part, um,
Speaker 1: when it was right when you sold your business and um,
Speaker 1: he sometimes I feel like you don't want to name
Speaker 1: certain people. But he said to you, Um, he said
Speaker 1: to you, and in the moment, I think I started
Speaker 1: to crying. But he said to you, uh, something like,
Speaker 1: now you can be selective about what you want to do,
Speaker 1: and I was like, that's what I want so badly.
Speaker 1: I want to be able to be selective about what
Speaker 1: I want to do. I don't want to have to
Speaker 1: do something for money. I don't want to owe somebody.
Speaker 1: I don't want to have to do something because I
Speaker 1: feel like I owe them. I I want to have
Speaker 1: to do I want to do good work, and I
Speaker 1: want to do it in an uncompromised way with integrity,
Speaker 1: and I want to you know, I want to do
Speaker 1: all these things. And that that's what I wanted so badly.
Speaker 1: So I remember that moment. Um you know, that moment
Speaker 1: just stuck in my head when he said that, I
Speaker 1: was like, that's that's what I want. I just want
Speaker 1: to be able to, you know, move forward and grow
Speaker 1: this brand in a way that um young and Judge
Speaker 1: Judy said, you could be you know, any age and
Speaker 1: be an entrepreneur. And I didn't. I wasn't didn't become
Speaker 1: really successful until my late thirties. My whole my book
Speaker 1: business is Personal is out now and it's all about
Speaker 1: this stuff and how the mistakes become uh successes. This
Speaker 1: is a big, big fucking mistakes. So it's going to
Speaker 1: be a whole to dig out. But because you do
Speaker 1: have a platform not just about not only about helping people,
Speaker 1: this has happened to which is important, and going back
Speaker 1: and backtracking while that happened psychologically and emotionally, while you
Speaker 1: have to do that, you don't have the luxury of
Speaker 1: just doing that. You have to get get a plan,
Speaker 1: get on the road and start. It will be empowering
Speaker 1: the minute you get the momentum of starting to make
Speaker 1: money and and and this debt will will You'll get unleashed.
Speaker 1: So that's got to be that has to be a
Speaker 1: major shift. Like I know that you're thinking about it
Speaker 1: and it's plaguing you, but it's like it's plaguing you.
Speaker 1: You need to be tackling it, Like it needs to
Speaker 1: be your bitch now. That debt is. You're the bitch
Speaker 1: of that debt now, and you need to make that
Speaker 1: debt your bitch. That's the difference. Yes, about the about
Speaker 1: what's happened and your mother and the emotions and survivors
Speaker 1: and all that's great, but this debt you need to
Speaker 1: make your bitch, is all I'm saying let's starting now.
Speaker 1: I'm just I've never been like this on this podcast
Speaker 1: to anyone, so I know that it's right because I
Speaker 1: can't stop saying it. So I'm gonna stop saying it.
Speaker 1: But I'm just telling you you need to become a badass.
Speaker 1: Now you're a victim, and you need to become a badass.
Speaker 1: You were a victim. So that's that's just I don't
Speaker 1: want you to throw this advice away. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to say that again because I don't think you should.
Speaker 1: So anyway, Um, Alec Baldwin came up in this whole thing,
Speaker 1: which is funny, and he's been through his own ship storm.
Speaker 1: Has he surfaced in any of this or did he
Speaker 1: have any reaction to any of this? Or is he's
Speaker 1: just an anecdotal piece of this. Um. Well, we have
Speaker 1: spoken and I think that, you know, like everybody on
Speaker 1: the other side of it, he was probably you know,
Speaker 1: like what the hell happened? And embarrassingly, UM, I think
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier when I got when I got out, um,
Speaker 1: when I got out on bail and I got back
Speaker 1: into my email because I had been you know, Mr
Speaker 1: Fox had controlled my email that year that we were
Speaker 1: away and I so I, and I didn't have the password,
Speaker 1: so I had to like go through jump through hoops
Speaker 1: with Google to get back into my old email. And
Speaker 1: when I got in there, um, I saw that he
Speaker 1: deleted all of our correspondence um between me and him.
Speaker 1: And then there was this moment where I was like huh,
Speaker 1: and then I clicked into the scent folder, and that,
Speaker 1: more than any other moments, I think that's when I
Speaker 1: wanted the meteor to hit me. And I like, I
Speaker 1: just was like, oh my god, oh my god. I
Speaker 1: was reading these emails that he sent to people as
Speaker 1: me wanting to just die, and so Alec was one
Speaker 1: of those people that he had written to. You know,
Speaker 1: he also wrote to my little brother. He wrote back
Speaker 1: to people in my family. He wrote back to he
Speaker 1: was like begging people for money as me, and I'm
Speaker 1: I'm like oh yeah, and and and like put and
Speaker 1: then and and and one of Alex applies, he says
Speaker 1: something that's the equivalent of like you don't sound like you,
Speaker 1: you know, like what like he so, But the thing is,
Speaker 1: nobody really thinks like if you can eat some right,
Speaker 1: that doesn't occur to you. And I think that and
Speaker 1: that's why when it was like I couldn't to me,
Speaker 1: I felt like, kind of I feel so stupid, like
Speaker 1: trying to reach out to people and saying that wasn't me.
Speaker 1: But if anybody, if I could like open up that
Speaker 1: email and show people, like, here's all the emails and
Speaker 1: if you see them all together, because in some cases
Speaker 1: people would say to me, Okay, well you need to
Speaker 1: call me and we'll talk about it, and then that
Speaker 1: thread would drop and then they'd be like, I understand,
Speaker 1: why can't you call me? Um? You know so? And
Speaker 1: then there were emails there to Jeffrey chatero UM and
Speaker 1: that was just like that just made me feel so
Speaker 1: sick to my stomach and didn't say anything. Now like
Speaker 1: have they because this is a little bit of vindication.
Speaker 1: At least they got those emails. At least you have
Speaker 1: a little bit of indication. Have any have you spoken
Speaker 1: to Jeffrey or Alec? I've met Alec, I know Jeffrey
Speaker 1: you have. Yeah. I'm on I mean, I'm on good
Speaker 1: terms with most everybody. There are some people I haven't
Speaker 1: spoken to. Um And again, it's like what you're saying,
Speaker 1: so you know, to to go back and reach out
Speaker 1: to some of these people. It's it's draining, time consuming,
Speaker 1: and and people have said, well, why don't you reach
Speaker 1: out to this, and it's like, well, if I did that,
Speaker 1: that's all I'm doing. I want to focus on moving
Speaker 1: forward because I want to importantly repay all this I
Speaker 1: want to get out and I want to read. I'd
Speaker 1: rather focus on repaying, you know whatever. You don't need
Speaker 1: to talk like spending like an entire day with just
Speaker 1: you know, emotionally draining hours talking to somebody who may
Speaker 1: or may not understand. And so I'm sort of, you know,
Speaker 1: for any of those out there who have not heard
Speaker 1: from me, who might be wondering, like, why the hell
Speaker 1: hasn't she reached out, It's like I want to and
Speaker 1: then I'll but like I just want to I just
Speaker 1: want to find a way to repay everybody. I just
Speaker 1: want to get the money back and repay like I'd
Speaker 1: rather I'd rather reach out and go, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: what are your wiring instructions, and I want to give
Speaker 1: you some money back, and by the way, let's talk
Speaker 1: about what happened, you know. I don't. I just I'd
Speaker 1: rather be in a position of being able to repay
Speaker 1: them and and then talk about it. Um, I am,
Speaker 1: and like I said, because it's so dreamy, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: get it. I mean, you know how people say in
Speaker 1: a a like you have to apologize to everybody, and
Speaker 1: you could do that, I guess in your own way,
Speaker 1: but I would agree that it's more important for the
Speaker 1: action staff, and which is good. And then I guess
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I first of all, I
Speaker 1: thank you for talking to me. Um. I know I
Speaker 1: have an aggressive personality, so by no means that I
Speaker 1: want you to think that I was like coming at
Speaker 1: you or I have some angle or I thought it
Speaker 1: was something. I literally just wanted to talk to you
Speaker 1: about it because I just felt like I was gravitating
Speaker 1: towards the topic and the situation. It's a mixed bag
Speaker 1: of craziness and and um, and I just thought that
Speaker 1: I don't know, people could learn from it, that we
Speaker 1: could just have an honest conversation. So I really am grateful.
Speaker 1: And I think the other the other part of it
Speaker 1: that's used is that it can like it can help
Speaker 1: people recognize as if it might be happening to their
Speaker 1: sister or their friends. And so it's like the more
Speaker 1: people understand this type of a thing, and the more
Speaker 1: people understand and um like sociopathy and what that means
Speaker 1: and that it's a thing, and I hope that people
Speaker 1: start to understand it better. But then I also I
Speaker 1: hope it doesn't become one of those overused terms the
Speaker 1: way that like people kind of overuse gaslighting. Now, Oh,
Speaker 1: I know what you said. Well, by the way, it's important, yes,
Speaker 1: and you've talked about well, I've experienced psychological and verbal
Speaker 1: abuse and emotional abuse, and it is They say it's
Speaker 1: more harmful than physical abuse, and I have to say
Speaker 1: it's traumatizing, and it stays in your body for a
Speaker 1: long time, and you have like a shock reflex, two
Speaker 1: things that aren't normal to have a shock reflex too.
Speaker 1: I have been called every ugly name in the world.
Speaker 1: I have been told I'm garbage. I have been told
Speaker 1: things that that I've believed and thought like this is crazy,
Speaker 1: or just just just reacted in a way because someone
Speaker 1: was controlled, so controlling. So I understand how someone can
Speaker 1: really funk with you. If someone's entire life, if their
Speaker 1: goal is to fun with you, they can do it.
Speaker 1: If they're good at it. If they're good at it,
Speaker 1: they can do it. And I've heard from women who
Speaker 1: I heard from one woman who said she has a
Speaker 1: PhD in clinical psychology and she was manipulated to the
Speaker 1: extent she didn't know which way was up. Um. I've
Speaker 1: heard from people who you know, are powerful attorneys who
Speaker 1: have been manipulated. I mean, it happens to a lot
Speaker 1: of you know, intelligent and strong women. So it happens
Speaker 1: a lot to women when they're the more power the
Speaker 1: power figure, or the moneyed spouse. Well, because the man
Speaker 1: wants to get the control. Well right, for people who
Speaker 1: do this, it's like what they're getting out of it
Speaker 1: is taking you down, you know, So the more successful
Speaker 1: you are, or exactly the more you've accomplished, the more
Speaker 1: the more they want to destroy because that's that's the
Speaker 1: goal of it. The goal wasn't for him to take
Speaker 1: money from me, because then he would have taken it
Speaker 1: and hopped on a plane in Mexico and nobody would
Speaker 1: have bothered to go after him because who cares. But
Speaker 1: that wasn't his goal. His goal was, it appears the
Speaker 1: only thing that makes sense, was to kind of destroy me,
Speaker 1: but in a way that like to burn all the
Speaker 1: bridges and to make it maximally hard for me to
Speaker 1: turn around and make a comeback. So I've had the
Speaker 1: same I've had been threatened I'm going to ruin your
Speaker 1: life and ruin your career, like I I've literally and
Speaker 1: and worked really hard to do that. And when one
Speaker 1: and it's hard to describe that to other people because
Speaker 1: this one person has a goal and you're if they
Speaker 1: haven't got anybody could. It's really amazing A small gnat
Speaker 1: buzzing in your ear constantly could drive you and saying
Speaker 1: could destroy your life. Like so it's and it takes
Speaker 1: a strong constitution to overcome that and to battle that
Speaker 1: and beat that down, which I have done. But I
Speaker 1: really do. I do understand firsthand what stalking, harassment, being
Speaker 1: emotionally abused is like. And I haven't been that vocal
Speaker 1: about it specifically for many reasons, but I really understand
Speaker 1: it um And that probably is also why this was
Speaker 1: something that attracted me to talk about with you. So
Speaker 1: net the Netflix piece, so you feel that it wasn't
Speaker 1: that it was not fairly portrayed, or that there were
Speaker 1: like little cute nuances that are manipulative to the audience,
Speaker 1: and you've had to like stand up and clarify things
Speaker 1: because it's just frustrating. Um, it seems like yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know, and for anyone who's for anyone who's interested,
Speaker 1: I wrote a very I wrote a long, detailed like
Speaker 1: point by point um here, and I haven't even rewatched it.
Speaker 1: So I think if I once I kind of get
Speaker 1: the strength to sit down and rewatch it, I'll probably
Speaker 1: see a lot of other things. But it's not that
Speaker 1: i'm you know, I figured, of course, it's a crazy
Speaker 1: story that I didn't even understand, especially when I did
Speaker 1: those interviews because it was kind of early on. So
Speaker 1: I figured, you know, sure, certainly they'll get some things wrong,
Speaker 1: but I didn't think it would be intentional. And I
Speaker 1: think it's very clear from the things that were um,
Speaker 1: certain editorial choices that were made that it was delivered
Speaker 1: were it. And so that's what I wrote about on
Speaker 1: my website, kind of point by point um, which ones
Speaker 1: really matter because I got the gist of the whole story.
Speaker 1: I think you're very and so I want to hear
Speaker 1: what really really matters, um, you know, like I think that, well,
Speaker 1: the big one is the call at the end, because
Speaker 1: I think you know, you said that you understood it
Speaker 1: to be sort of something that the director did, or
Speaker 1: you understood that it was sort of there for some reason,
Speaker 1: but you didn't see it the way some other people
Speaker 1: came away with it, which seems weird. But a lot
Speaker 1: of people came away with it like like as if
Speaker 1: I was in on it whatever that means, all along
Speaker 1: or something, because it sounded awkward. It sounded like a
Speaker 1: weird re enactment phone call. It sounded strange. It sounds
Speaker 1: like someone said call him and you guys were talking
Speaker 1: and it was weird, like that's what it was recorded
Speaker 1: for the film. So you know, it's not like I was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it did not sound but I don't think that. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe people are love on co finant to the Picnic,
Speaker 1: but I mean I could watch it again. It did
Speaker 1: not sound like you guys we're in cahoots. It sounded
Speaker 1: a little bit like a either what I just said
Speaker 1: or this guy is such a sickle that he still
Speaker 1: has some sort of hold on him that you still
Speaker 1: you know, when you talked to him, you still have
Speaker 1: a weird feeling that you can't control. I don't mean
Speaker 1: that you're in love with him, but like and that
Speaker 1: like have lo van almost That's the two options that
Speaker 1: I had in my mind watching it. Not that like
Speaker 1: you guys were bandits ripping everybody off and the money
Speaker 1: like in Switzerland somewhere. Yeah, I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people unfortunately thought that. But um, you know, it didn't
Speaker 1: sound like I was very friendly with him, but the
Speaker 1: you know, it was like I was, I was playing
Speaker 1: a role, and it was deliberate because I was trying
Speaker 1: to get him to talk about things, and it was
Speaker 1: probably like a forty minute phone call, and so they
Speaker 1: just played this little part of it where you know,
Speaker 1: I'm deliberately and strategically, you know, having a conversation with him,
Speaker 1: knowing that I'm talking to a right that was a
Speaker 1: little so the reason I'm kind of laughing and casual
Speaker 1: with him and sort of is like, I'm doing that deliberately,
Speaker 1: and that was, you know, I don't know if that
Speaker 1: was the beginning. I don't know. I didn't go back
Speaker 1: to the call to listen to see specifically that I
Speaker 1: get where you're coming from, because it seemed like you
Speaker 1: were a little chucky and it was awkward. But I
Speaker 1: don't think like I would not like I would check
Speaker 1: that box of Netflix as being just like a production
Speaker 1: thing and being a little cute and editing, but not
Speaker 1: like crazy. What else did they do that was agreed to?
Speaker 1: I mean sort of, but all of it combined, So
Speaker 1: there are a lot of things before that that would
Speaker 1: allow somebody to think that I might have been in
Speaker 1: on it. So um, you know, one part is there's
Speaker 1: a part where I start to talk about um like
Speaker 1: a it's almost like implied sexual abuse, but it cuts
Speaker 1: off where I think in the in the film, I
Speaker 1: say something about how he would make me drink wine
Speaker 1: and then like you know, do things, and then it
Speaker 1: ends there. And I know that that. You know, somebody
Speaker 1: who was there and saw the footage said like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, that footage is so compelling, and I was
Speaker 1: sort of you know, when I first saw the film,
Speaker 1: I was shocked because I was sure that that was
Speaker 1: going to be in it, because I was told it
Speaker 1: was incredibly compelling, and part of me, like my initial
Speaker 1: reaction was like that part of me was relieved, because
Speaker 1: of course, you know, it would have been embarrassing and
Speaker 1: I would be like ugly crying on, you know, and
Speaker 1: all of that footage where I talked more in detail
Speaker 1: about that part of what he did was left out
Speaker 1: of the film. Um, and I think that had it
Speaker 1: been included, then nobody would have been confused at the end.
Speaker 1: And so they were like things like that that had
Speaker 1: they had they been done differently, people wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: people wouldn't come away with this sort of controversial because
Speaker 1: I think all of that stuff was done to create
Speaker 1: this controversy, like did she do it? Did she not
Speaker 1: do it? That was understand and so and also like
Speaker 1: it made it well, they don't know, they don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm not like I don't work
Speaker 1: for and it wasn't it was Chris Smith, the director.
Speaker 1: More because the movie was made and then sold to Netflix,
Speaker 1: so and and Netflix their marketing was really, um, really
Speaker 1: really grotesque. And again it's it's like what I said before,
Speaker 1: like I feel really, I feel angry, and I feel
Speaker 1: on behalf of other people who've been psychologically abused because
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, I sort of made fun
Speaker 1: of the whole thing. Oh, you feel like you went
Speaker 1: back into another bad relationship with them in the way
Speaker 1: it was portrayed, like you just wanted your story to
Speaker 1: be told in a certain way. Well, anyway I I
Speaker 1: I understand where you're coming from. I appreciate you, know
Speaker 1: you coming on here. It's not easy to keep reliving,
Speaker 1: and um, I just wanted to get some perspective and
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. And UM, I really wish you the
Speaker 1: best of luck. I wish you success and freedom and
Speaker 1: a good relationship with your family about this and just
Speaker 1: to be able to move forward while you're still young
Speaker 1: and healthy and have your whole life ahead of you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel do feel regard those of what happened.
Speaker 1: I do feel lucky that you know, I have a home,
Speaker 1: I'm healthy, I have my dog. You know, lots of
Speaker 1: things are fine, and you know I'm not there, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever is happening, it's like I can handle, you know, right,
Speaker 1: And also you know, like I'm safe, I'm fine. Everything's good.
Speaker 1: You know, I have a home, I have food. It's
Speaker 1: not I'm not like in a war zone and whatnot.
Speaker 1: So I do feel grateful, and I feel grateful that
Speaker 1: I have a platform and opportunities. You know, I know
Speaker 1: I have all these opportunities. I know that a lot
Speaker 1: of women that are devastated in these types of situations,
Speaker 1: like I don't have any of that or and they
Speaker 1: have you know, they might have children involved, which makes
Speaker 1: it just exponentially more tragic. So I feel you have
Speaker 1: a voice. I do feel lucky and optimistic. I've always
Speaker 1: been optimistic, So I like that, and I love your
Speaker 1: I want I would. I would literally pay a lot
Speaker 1: of money for those cash us right now, those raw,
Speaker 1: spicy sweet cash shoes. You would. That's fine. Everybody everybody
Speaker 1: has their favorite, you know, people are always starting out
Speaker 1: to many different things. But yeah, so maybe you'll do
Speaker 1: that again because that is very current. That's very current.
Speaker 1: That's that's would be way more lucrative now than even then.
Speaker 1: It's very current. So well, I appreciate you, and um,
Speaker 1: I hope you have a great day and I can't
Speaker 1: wait to hear what happens next. All right, thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Awesome, have a great day. Wow. So that
Speaker 1: was an interesting interview. I honestly, it brought up so
Speaker 1: much for me to talk to Sarma because of that
Speaker 1: I know some of the people involved. Uh So it
Speaker 1: just was something that I was shocked to find on
Speaker 1: television that I've experienced some of the things that she's
Speaker 1: gone through. So that was thought provoking that I'm a
Speaker 1: business person and that being in debt would just cripple
Speaker 1: me and it would just be the only thing I
Speaker 1: focused on. And I wanted to talk to her, um
Speaker 1: just to get an understanding. I didn't even know what
Speaker 1: I wanted to know. I just was intrigued by this
Speaker 1: whole topic, and I didn't want to badger her, you know,
Speaker 1: because I don't do that. I don't want to have
Speaker 1: someone on here so I can just be the superior
Speaker 1: person and the authority on anything, because I'm not. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to talk to her on behalf of you
Speaker 1: and the employees. And you know, you're running a restaurant
Speaker 1: and you leave a restaurant for nine months. You can't
Speaker 1: leave a business for nine days without like a very
Speaker 1: serious plan, literally nine days. I can't just leave my
Speaker 1: business for nine days and have the things run smoothly,
Speaker 1: like absolute fact. So a restaurant where it's a raw
Speaker 1: restaurant back in his time where that wasn't even a
Speaker 1: current thing, and people's paychecks and payroll and running a
Speaker 1: business and taxes and crazy things like that, Like, there's
Speaker 1: no way that Jeffrey Chotteroh can run someone else's business,
Speaker 1: even if he's the investor. That was the craziest part
Speaker 1: to me. I just had to understand as a business owner,
Speaker 1: like you can't walk away from a restaurant for nine months.
Speaker 1: It must have been a circus in there. I just
Speaker 1: wish I paid more attention back then. But anyway, she
Speaker 1: was in some sort of a trance, and I never
Speaker 1: questioned someone's emotional experience and abuse experience that, you know.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to get to the bottom of this
Speaker 1: whole crazy labyrinth and web that was woven, and um,
Speaker 1: she's got work to do. It's time to get to work.
Speaker 1: It's great that you're communicating. It's great that you're talking
Speaker 1: to survivors. It's great that you're getting the message out.
Speaker 1: It's great that you're helping future victims. You've got to
Speaker 1: help former victims too, So let's get out there and
Speaker 1: make some money and pay off our deaths. That was interesting,
Speaker 1: and I am grateful to her for coming on, because
Speaker 1: it's not easy to come on and talk when you
Speaker 1: are a heated person who's been part of a massive scandal.
Speaker 1: So I give her credit for that.