1 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: So there was a bit. There was a massive dulchake. 2 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: There was a massive Dolche Gabana photo shoot in Portofino, Italy. UM. 3 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: And also I think there was a wedding. We have 4 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: to talk about the Kardashian Dulce Gabana campaign. Um. That 5 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: also happened to be a wedding. UM. The Kardashian shot 6 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: adulta Gabana worldwide campaign in Italy. UM. And also Kartney 7 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: Kardashian got married. Um. It was such an amazing display 8 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: of love between the two of them. I mean, it's 9 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: crazy because I talked to Paul about it because obviously, 10 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: if Paul and I wanted to get married on television, 11 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: we would have that opportunity. And Paul said, for ten 12 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: million dollars, I would not get married and television. He said, 13 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: I would not make my wedding public for ten million dollars. 14 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: I didn't even ask him about twenty I think he'd 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: say no. He said, my life would change forever. And I, 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: you know, when is enough enough? And it's funny because 17 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: I was thinking about the fact that this this wedding 18 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: Dolce campaign extravaganza, it was beautiful. Everybody looked amazing, and 19 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: head to tell even the kids, like, would there be 20 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: a breach of contract? If if if, like is that 21 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: why maybe Rob didn't come because he wasn't willing to 22 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: wear dolt jakobana and like he would have broken the 23 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: Kardashian contract starting with a K. The new contract should 24 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: start with a K from now on. I think contracts 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: should start with a K. But like every single I 26 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: think the Kardashian dogs where they are wearing dolt Jackobanna collars, 27 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: I mean it was a full fledged doltja Gabana, Like 28 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: literally dolt Chackabana jerked off all over the Kardashian wedding 29 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: um and I was and but by the way, they 30 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: looked so happy and it was amazing, and I think, 31 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I love that she did what she wanted. 32 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: She wore what she wanted. That dress, you know, it 33 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: was like a lingerie dress and with a veil of 34 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: the Virgin Mary. That veil was gorgeous. Chris Jenner looked 35 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: amazing and like the picture with the veil that was 36 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: like up on all those stairs was amazing. And there 37 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: was a video somewhere of like Kendall like trying to 38 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: walk and flats up these crazy stairs in this dress, 39 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: and I mean it looks like they had a great 40 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: time and they are and like a their family. You know, 41 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: it was like a family dynamic. The song's sister Sledge 42 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: was playing on a video like we are a family. 43 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: I got all my sisters with me, which was amazing. Um. 44 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: But I was talking to Paul about it, and I 45 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: was he was saying, wow, like what there are no limits? 46 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: Like when is enough enough? Like they can't stop, it's 47 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: just more? Is more? Get every fucking nickel off that floor. 48 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: We're not leaving a goddamn scent, not a cent in 49 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: the joint. We are going to fucking strip this place. 50 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: This country will be stripped of every goddamn penny, nickel, 51 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, Subway token, drachma, any currency that starts with 52 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: a K is fucking coming into our bank accounts every 53 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: which way. But Sunday brands that trash just a couple 54 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: of years ago, owning them events that trashed us several 55 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: years ago and wouldn't invite us, taken them over. We 56 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: it's a fucking smash and grab job and we are 57 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: taking no prisoners. It is called It's the Kardashian country 58 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: that starts with a K and we're fucking running this 59 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: motherfucker because they are not playing any games. It's the 60 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: not fucking around crew. Get the funk out of the way, 61 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: and while you're getting the funk out of the way, 62 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: pay us to get the funk out of the way. Also, 63 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: like I've been, I've gotten married on television, Like I've 64 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: experienced that, I've planned a wedding on television. I've you know, 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: there are whereas. It does make the experience different. It's 66 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: not as intimate. It's strange for other people that are, 67 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: you know, in attendance, it's definitely different. There's definitely a sacrifice, 68 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: so I wonder, and it's not as intimate like it is, 69 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: But how do I explain it. It's like there's all 70 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: this excitement that is about the actual event that's happening 71 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: in your life, but it's layered and there's more excitement 72 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: because there are cameras in an audience, and there's an 73 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: audience in that room that's also aware that there are cameras. 74 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: So it's like you're sort of in this weird world 75 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: where there are cameras on you, but there's an audience 76 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: beyond the cameras. The people that the cameras aren't really 77 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: capturing because they don't really care about those other people 78 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: that are at your wedding, So they're sort of like extras. 79 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: They're extras. You're the stars in the movie. There are 80 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: cameras and they're extras watching you be in this scene, 81 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: and it's definitely different. And then you're also where that 82 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: there's an audience that's people watching television around the country 83 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: and the world that are watching this, and the Kardashians 84 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: have a bigger stage, and then there's an audience that 85 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: are watching in the media. So there's no way that 86 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: you're walking and eating an ice cream cone and you're 87 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: not aware. You're not dumb, You've been doing this for 88 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: twenty seasons. You're aware that that's something that you're in 89 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: a role doing. The ice cream cone is a prop, 90 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: you know, meaning like you know that that's like grab 91 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: the ice cream cone role film. Like, So can something 92 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: be as intimate? Can something be even if you've lived 93 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: your whole life this way? Like, are there any private moments? 94 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: You know, like, are there moments that because it's hard 95 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: to be present, I've experienced it. I have a hard 96 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: time being present, you know, going to an event with 97 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: my fiance that just involves me taking some pictures. I 98 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: feel self conscious if I bring Brent to the I 99 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio Words and it's twenty minutes on the red carpet, 100 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: I feel self conscious that there are cameras and I'm 101 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: being photographed when I walk down the street. If there's 102 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: someone who takes a picture and they wanted to get 103 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: a picture of me, and they less want to get 104 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: a picture of her, let me get a picture alone, 105 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: I feel self conscious. There's no way that these dynamics 106 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: don't happen in these grander schemes because there's so much 107 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: bigger than what I've experienced. So I have, but I 108 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: have some institutional knowledge, and it's just it does take 109 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: away from the actual emotion of the moment and the 110 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: authenticity of the moment and the intimacy of the moment. 111 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: There's it's an absolute fact that that moment is is 112 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: changed and that there's something about it that is for 113 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 1: an audience. So that's interesting, you know, And that's something 114 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: that Paul, my fiance, would never subscribe to, and I 115 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: mean never, so uh, it's interesting. You have to be 116 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: with someone who wants to roll with that program. Travis 117 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: Barker wants to roll with that program, and Tristan Thompson 118 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: and Kanye wanted to roll with that program, like you 119 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: can't you can't run that life and not to roll 120 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: with that hair and makeup produced filter program. A lot 121 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: of you have asked me for my take on the 122 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: Netflix series Bad Vegan, And not only did I watch 123 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: Bad Vegan, but I had the Bad Vegan herself, Sarma 124 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: melm Gollis on my podcast. She's been called the Vegan 125 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: Bernie made off. But is she Sarma's coming on? And 126 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: this was a controversial show. I happened to have been 127 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: to the restaurant. I happened to know Jeffrey Chatterer, I 128 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: happen to have met Sarma and her ex husband. So 129 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: when I saw this documentary, I was shocked because I 130 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: knew some of the people which had happened with the 131 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: Tinder Swindler doc too. I had met that freak one 132 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: time at a party and had his business card, the 133 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: Diamond guy or the so called diamond guy. So sometimes 134 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: I'll see something and say, wait a second, I know 135 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: some of those people. I ate that Lasagna. I wow. 136 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: So I wanted to have her on because it involves 137 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: so many elements, so many things in this recipe, So 138 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: many things in this raw foods recipe. Abuse, mental abuse, 139 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: psychological abuse, uh, swindling, stealing money, not paying people, like, 140 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: so many accusations, gambling, addiction, you know, cult like tactics. 141 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to have Sarma on. I want to hear 142 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: her take. There's so much to this that I really 143 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: want to dig into this. And this is a very 144 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: different interview than any interview that I've ever done. Years ago, 145 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: So I lived in Chicago and for about a year 146 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: I was I was raw long before it was popular. 147 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: I was a natural food chef in you know, before 148 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: nine eleven so um. And there was a woman named 149 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: Karen h k a r y n that had a 150 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: cafe and she was raw and she had studied with 151 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: Anne Wigmore and about all the wheat grass and all this, 152 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: like really what was really extreme, particularly in Chicago. So 153 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: I've met Giuliano the raw chef, and like a lot 154 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: of those other alternative people through that world. And I've 155 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: seen in New York all the different raw food cafes 156 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: that were really really edgy. UM. So I was aware 157 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: of Matthew even before you guys opened pure and one 158 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,719 Speaker 1: Lucky Duck. He was doing something with Russell Simmons for 159 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: his Jivamook de Cafes, and we connected, and I had 160 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: wheat eggon dairy cookies, wheat egg and dairy free cookies, 161 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: so I was baking them for him in conjunction with 162 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: this cafe. And then he started to do something else. 163 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: I don't remember what that was. But then I remember 164 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: hearing about pure food and wine and going and the 165 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: zuki famous zuchina lasagna, and then going to see the 166 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: place in Chelsea Market One Lucky Duck with those like 167 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: spiced cash ews and that stuff, and and and I 168 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: met you there not no doing any of this stuff like, 169 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: which hadn't happened yet, but I met you, I saw 170 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: you were in the store. So so I say this 171 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: whole story for the listeners and for you, because hey, 172 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: I have no idea if you're aware of me. But 173 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: I didn't know about any of this. I'm not like 174 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm sort of in my own world in many cases, 175 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: so I didn't know about any of this until people 176 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: started saying, you need to see the show. I want 177 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: to hear your comment on bad vegans. Still didn't even 178 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: know that you were that person. Then some of it 179 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: works with me, said it too. Then like watched it, 180 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: looked it up. I'm like, I know her, I know him, 181 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: I know Jeffrey Chattero, I know all these people like 182 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: I know. So that was crazy. So that's like where 183 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: I came into it from. And I watched the Netflix 184 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: special and then had my opinion, which we'll get into, 185 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: and then reached out to you. So I don't know 186 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: what you know about all that, but that was like 187 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: shocking to me. I did. I did listen to Um. 188 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: I went and looked at your podcast and I saw 189 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: a couple of them had mentioned bad vegans, and I 190 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: went and listened to that and and um. And then 191 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: I had forgotten that you knew Matthew from way back, 192 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: which was kind of reassuring to me, because um, he's 193 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: UM yeah, I think you said a few things that 194 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: indicated that you kind of know things about him that 195 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't necessarily know. And so I 196 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: kind of stepped into a situation with him that had 197 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: some similarities to the one I've then later stepped into 198 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: with the you know the guy in the in the film. 199 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: So to let the viewers the listeners know this guy, Matthew, 200 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: a good looking, healthy chef, talk of the town. I'm 201 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: just you know. I met him and we were gonna 202 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: I was gonna bake my wheat, egg and dairy free 203 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: cookies for him. I was running a natural food cafe. 204 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: He was like all over the place. I don't remember him, 205 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: not like paying me or not being what he said 206 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: it was going to be. It didn't seem like he 207 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: was a bad person. It seemed like he was all 208 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: over the place and moving from one thing to the next, 209 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: getting new partner to start a new exciting thing, and 210 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: then a new partner to do this. And he's very charming, 211 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: and he meets a lot of different people, and he's 212 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: always onto another thing, is what it seems like. And 213 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: I think he's talented because I've seen him open these 214 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: new restaurants and the Vegan Mexican and the Vegan Italian 215 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: and all these places in New York, and then there's 216 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: something in Miami, but then it's gone, then there's something 217 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: a new. So he's done a good job of moving 218 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: in a lot of circles. And I don't know where 219 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: anyting lands, but that was my perspective. And then seeing 220 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: that you guys were together and then go into your cafe. Yeah. 221 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: Well he and I got involved, um before either of 222 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: us even knew what raw food was, and so I 223 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: got involved in his restaurants and and then also sort 224 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: of taken down as they all closed. Um. So that 225 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: was a bummer for me. Uh, you know, that left 226 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: me with some negative consequences that were ongoing, um, financially, 227 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: you know after we split, so and then you know, 228 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: and then we opened Pure Free and One together and 229 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 1: then we split a later um. And then yeah, from 230 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: there on, I continued running it on my own. Okay, 231 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: So I watched Bad Vegan, and I commented that it 232 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: felt like you were in a one person cult, and um, 233 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: I washed with my fiance, and many people were very 234 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: skeptical and thought you were part of it, etcetera. I 235 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: didn't really think about that because it seemed very convoluted, 236 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: like that would have been a really big complicated trip 237 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: to go on. I don't mean your road trip, I 238 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: mean like to go on to be involved, it seems 239 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 1: like and for what benefit. Yeah, it seems like you 240 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: just got like immersed and enveloped in this thing, and 241 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: it went deeper and deeper, and it does feel like 242 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: a Ponzi scheme in the sense that you were deeper 243 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: and deeper, and I'm sure you knew something was wrong, 244 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: but I don't think you knew exactly what was wrong, 245 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: and I don't think you knew how to get out. 246 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: And I think that it might also have had something 247 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: to do with your previous relationships. I really need to 248 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: hear from you what went down like about that does 249 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: the relationship and getting in so deep when you see 250 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: the numbers, So what went down? Well, I think I 251 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: heard you say that in a in another podcast as well, 252 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: and that is entirely correct. The cult of one dynamic 253 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: because um, you know, on the other side of this, 254 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: people who've been in cults and gotten out. Those are 255 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: like my people. We understand each other, and there's so 256 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: many similarities between um, this guy and other cult leaders, 257 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: so you know, those people have a lot of similarities. 258 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: And then the tactics that they used to pull people 259 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: in our um pretty much almost the same. So when 260 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: I part a lot of my healing involved hearing the 261 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: stories of people who've been in cults. Um. I'm friends 262 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: with Sarah Edmondson from Nexium, So that whole situation with 263 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: Coprain area. I've paid a lot of attention to that 264 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: and the people coming out of it talking about, um, 265 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: you know, the realizations they've had because what happens is 266 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: on the other side of it, everybody's going, I don't understand, 267 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: how could you not see it? How come you didn't run? 268 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: How come and there? And what happened? The same thing 269 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: happens to people who are in cults because it seems insane, 270 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: and people don't understand how communicant run, how communicant called 271 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: the police and and the problem is that on the 272 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: other side of it, we all have the very same questions, 273 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: Like you know, we come out of it having the 274 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: same questions like I don't wait, why didn't I run? 275 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: You know? And what happens is um which I think 276 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: that it would help if more people understood this so 277 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: they could hopefully avoid it. But um, you know, is 278 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: is the extent to which your mind gets manipulated, I 279 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: think is underestimated. And then in particular, there's uh assumption 280 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: that if you're a smart, intelligent person, you couldn't be manipulated. 281 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: And people will say that all that they say, oh, well, 282 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: that would never happen to me, or they say that 283 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: or think that, Um, but it could. I mean, there's 284 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: certainly certain personality types that are far more susceptible, and 285 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: I'm definitely one of those. But intelligence has absolutely nothing 286 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: to do with it. And in fact, like um, you know, 287 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: successful people, I mean, this has happened to a number 288 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: a ton of women who have been successful and have 289 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: build something and created something and then have it, you know, 290 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: taken down and um in this sort of fiery crash, 291 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: and in my case, in a way that made it 292 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: look like I had done it. UM. So yeah, I mean, 293 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: not only was everything destroyed and I felt horrifically awful 294 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: about it, and you know, all these people were hurt, 295 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: and everything I've spent all these years building and creating 296 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: UM was gone. But all these people I cared for 297 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: were hurt. And then layer on top of that that 298 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: it was made to look like it was my fault 299 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: or intentional in some way, which doesn't really make sense 300 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: to me. But I can understand, you know, people being 301 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: angry at me for not having seen what was going 302 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: on or um. I mean, I can understand that that 303 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: part of it, but thinking that there was some malist 304 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: on my part, UM doesn't really make any sense. Whatsoever 305 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: with the facts of the situation. Um, and I think that, 306 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, I've been very public about the way the 307 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: film was presented, and I wrote a lot of stuff 308 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: on my website clarifying all these questions that people had 309 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: and the incorrect the things that were portrayed, um, incorrectly. 310 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: So I kind of wrote all this stuff, put it 311 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: out there. It's there. Um, and I've been please that 312 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: at least some people they have gone and um, you know, 313 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: I've got a lot of massachution people who say I 314 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: watched it, I was confused at the end. You know, 315 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: I'm really glad I found your website and read, you know, 316 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: read what happened, and now I understand better. So um yeah, 317 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: and now I'm kind of trying to come out there 318 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: and be talk about it in a way that's helpful 319 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: for people. Okay, So I want to break down a 320 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: few things. First of all, I'm not a gotcha person. 321 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: I'm not like bringing people on here. I've been on 322 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: shows or so much as to like catch me in something, 323 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: and I'm not doing that. But I'm not going to 324 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: just you know, I've I've got it. I'm speaking for 325 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: people and myself, and I want to like break this down, 326 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: because they're always multiple sides. And I'm sure you sure 327 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: you're gonna take some responsibility for this because you're not 328 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: just a victim of something that happened. You definitely participated 329 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: in some way, I imagine. I don't mean like ripping 330 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: people off per se. I just mean we all have 331 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: accept some level of responsibility for the situations that we're in. 332 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: I think, I think, and you may correct me so 333 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: as far as the dynamic with the person, when when 334 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: you say could happened to anybody, do you feel if 335 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: there's an element where you get together in the beginning 336 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: and it feels great and you feel loved or you 337 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: feel connected, and then you're constantly chasing the dragon to 338 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: get back to that, Like that's how it keeps going. 339 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: First it's amazing, and you fall for that, and then 340 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: something isn't great, but then something great happens and you 341 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: keep going back, and then you get deeper and deeper. 342 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: Like what about that element of just people who gets 343 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: sucked into someone else's wartax? It has happened to me. 344 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily someone who was abusing me by any 345 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: means or um. It wasn't someone who abused me, but 346 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: it was something where there was no reason I would 347 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: stay in this situation, and I kept staying in it 348 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: because I kept thinking like I was imagining it or 349 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: that it would get better, because I was going back 350 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: to some stuff from the beginning. And also what was 351 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: going on in my own life was I was feeling 352 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: alone and it was the only thing that I really 353 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: had going And sometimes as you're older, you don't really 354 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: want to go look for something or be alone, and 355 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: so it's the most familiar thing to you. So I 356 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: want to talk about that aspect of just the interpersonal 357 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: getting like staying with something that is obviously unhealthy, for 358 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: getting cult or anything like that, just that that dynamic. Yeah, 359 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's all related. Um. In my case, I 360 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: think it's very very common that there's this period of 361 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: time that people call love bombing in what's being termed 362 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: narcissistic abuse type relationships. UM, And that wasn't really the 363 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: case in my situation. UM, you know, it was a 364 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: bit more complicated than that. But whatever, you know, what 365 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: happened happened so gradually over a long period of time. 366 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: And what's shocking to me, UM, when I've gone back 367 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: and read the correspondence that I was able to retrieve, 368 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: which is only some of it, not all of it, um, 369 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: And he had tried to delete everything, so he you know, 370 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: he tried to like wipe out all the you know, 371 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: evidence of everything, which is pretty telling, and I'm trying 372 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,719 Speaker 1: to recover it all, um. But looking back at it 373 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: and reading all of it was you know, it's me 374 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's happening. And what was shocking 375 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: is how many times. I mean, I did remember this, 376 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: the number of times in the beginning that I tried 377 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: to push him out and get rid of him, and 378 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: then one way or another he would kind of get 379 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: back in charming by charming you in some way it 380 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: was less charming and more like sometimes circumstantial. And then also, um, 381 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly the timing of it, but once 382 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: he got me to give him money, you know, uh, 383 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: claiming of like some kind of insane emergency and he 384 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: needed it right away. And so if you're kind of 385 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: a kind generous person and you're not, you're not by 386 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: nature suspicious, um, you know, so I was able to 387 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: give him some money. But then that was like the 388 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: hook that because if there were times in the future 389 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: where he would say, um, well i'm gonna bring you money. 390 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: I'm gonna come, I'm gonna pay you back, I'm gonna 391 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: bring you money. And then I'd be like okay, And 392 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: so he'd come, you know, see me over the weekend, 393 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: and maybe he'd bring me some money, but not what 394 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: he said it was, and it wasn't, you know, even 395 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: half of what I had loaned him. And but then 396 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: he'd be in front of me, and for some reason, 397 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: whenever I was in his presence, it was a lot 398 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: harder to um. It was as if he had more 399 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: power when we were when he was in front of 400 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: me in ways that I don't you know that I 401 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: still don't quite fully understand. So so the but the 402 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: hook being you said circumstantial, that makes some sense. If 403 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: you disconnect from him, you're not going to get the 404 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: rest of the money. And when you say circumstantial, did 405 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: he often says it seemed like he was going to 406 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: solve certain problems for you. You I'll handle this for you, 407 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: and you sort of like had these false hopes of 408 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: these different things that he was promising you. So that 409 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: was another hook. Is that is that accurate or now? Yeah? Yeah, 410 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: And I think that I heard described something that made 411 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: so much sense to me and sort of answered, you know, 412 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: an open question that I had was UM. A guy 413 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: named Mark Presente who was in the Next Um Cult 414 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: and he's in that UM that documentary of the HBO 415 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: The Vow, and he that they in a podcast with 416 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: Sarah and Nippy who are also in it. They were 417 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: talking about UM. You know, because that guy keithri and 418 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: Are is really goofy and people look at him and think, 419 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: how could everybody have since worshiped him as if he 420 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 1: was some kind of a god, and how could they 421 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: believe that, you know, these outlandish claims he made about 422 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: himself being, you know, the smartest person in the world 423 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: and all these ridiculous claims looking back, And something that 424 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: Mark said that made so much sense to me was UM. 425 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: And I'm completely paraphrasing, and I probably should have I 426 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: wrote it all down somewhere, but that it's what they do, 427 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: is they find they find a way of presenting you 428 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: with like your idealized self, so all your kind of 429 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: hopes and dreams and and who you really want to be. 430 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: And in my case it was UM, I wanted to 431 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: be independent and able to grow my business and you know, 432 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: and do good things and build this brand and be 433 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 1: independent and free. And that's kind of what he um 434 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: not necessarily directly, but that's kind of what he got 435 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: me attached to. Was as if he could enable me 436 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: and he could get me there or he could deliver 437 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: that um and and things were never stated explicitly, so 438 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: it was always kind of very vague, but it's like, 439 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: that's what I got attached to because I never understood. 440 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: People would say to me like, well, you know, you 441 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,959 Speaker 1: you know the things you do for love, and I 442 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: was like, it's not quite. That's not right. It's not 443 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: like I might have in some way I felt like 444 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: I loved him, especially early on, but you know, even 445 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: in the beginning it, you know, from what I read 446 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: in our correspondence and what I remember, I mean, I 447 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 1: was afraid of him. I didn't, you know, even the 448 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: first time he saw me. After that, the first time 449 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: I saw him in person after that, I was like, uh, yeah, 450 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't. You know, he's not really what I 451 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: thought he was going to be. I shouldn't see him again. 452 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: So it wasn't like this love attachment. And I think 453 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: what happened was um you know what, but like him 454 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: are extremely good at which is dangerous is reading people 455 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: and very very quickly understanding precisely what are your buttons, 456 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: what are your weaknesses, what are your hopes and dreams? 457 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: What can he You know, he would know exactly what 458 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: types of things to say, and you know subtly that 459 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: would get me unconsciously attached or hooked. Well, that's that's 460 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: what they do. So I guess if we're not realizing 461 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: that someone, it's much easier to be scammed. I mean, 462 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: if a person, if they are the scammer and that's 463 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 1: what they do, and you have no idea it's coming, 464 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: you're just wide open as a human being. And that's 465 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: why many of us get less trusting. But it's funny 466 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: that you brought up the guy from Nexium to Keith, 467 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: because I call it with women, um in, non non 468 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: cult leaders. I mean, I call them trick guys, men 469 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: who seem they're not that go looking, they're not like 470 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: that being stud and so you think they're going to 471 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: be safe because what the hell you know? They can't 472 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: get they can't get anyone. They're gonna be loyal to you, 473 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: they're not that attractive, they're sort of dorky. So, but 474 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: they can be very dangerous because they probably have a 475 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: lot of insecurities from not being the best looking person, 476 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: the best looking man, and you know, now they have 477 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: something to prove in life. Yeah, I think that, um, 478 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: all of all what you said is correct. I've always 479 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: been much better at if somebody is coming at me. 480 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: My instinct is not you know, I'm not good with founder. 481 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,239 Speaker 1: I have not historically been good with boundaries. Um. If 482 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: somebody mistreated um, well I avoid conflict, um, but just 483 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: not not good at kind of not good at protecting myself. 484 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: But if somebody and this is this happened a number 485 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: of times, if somebody mistreated one of my employees or Leon, 486 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: my dog, It's like I would turn into a roaring lion, 487 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: like I have yelled at people and you know, demand 488 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: and that, you know, how dare you speak to her 489 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: like that, get out, you know, get the funk out 490 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: of here or whatever. I would. I have screamed at 491 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: people in the restaurant to get the funk out, like 492 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: how dare you you know, say that to one of 493 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: my hosts and so on? Behalf of somebody else I 494 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: can turn into, uh, you know, like this Mama Bear defender. 495 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: But what about your mother? When? What about your mother? When? 496 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: So I saw in the documentary that he was this 497 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: what's his name again? The man? Sorry, well, his real 498 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: name is Anthony Strangers and in my book, so I'm 499 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: I'm working, I'm almost done with a book, but I 500 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: call him Mr Fox. So, Mr Fox, you did not 501 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: find out until the very end that he was taking 502 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: money from your mother? I think, yeah, So I was 503 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: in um, I was in the Tennessee jail talking to 504 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: my sister, uh when I found out, you know, how 505 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: much he had taken from my mom. So I mean 506 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: I think, I, you know, to be to be completely forthright, 507 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: I think I knew that he must have I knew 508 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: that he must have been I knew that he was 509 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: kind of getting money. Like sometimes he would, uh you know, 510 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: have her, have me send money to her, and then 511 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: she would give it to him. And so I kind 512 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: of you know, I think I knew at times that 513 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: she had given him money and then you know, I 514 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: thought he gave it back to her or um, you know, 515 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: and I think I knew that he must have taken 516 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: some from her. But you know, when I when I 517 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: heard the amount and it was like it was just 518 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: one of those many moments that I had where I 519 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: just you know, fantasized a meteor hitting the earth exactly 520 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: where I was at that moment, because I just wanted to, like, 521 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: you know, curl up and die. Because I would say, 522 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: that's the line if you had any idea that his 523 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: he was he was manipulating your mother, that I would 524 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: think you would kill him, like I would think you 525 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: would grab him by the juggule, like go for the juggular. 526 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: How much did he take from your mom? And how 527 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: much from you? What's the grand tally? Um? I think 528 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: I believe from my mother he got over four roughly 529 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: four hundred fifty grand, which you know she didn't have 530 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: my mom's and she runs a business, so um that 531 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: put her in a really compromised position. Um, which has 532 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: been among the worst parts of this the aftermath. Um. 533 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's one thing if he only took from 534 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: me and I was the only one that was harmed, 535 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: but all the other people being harmed as well, it's 536 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: most difficult to deal with. And then for me, Um, 537 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that I ever did like a precise total, 538 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: because it's also a lot of it was in cash 539 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: and um, not a lot, but some of it. But anyway, 540 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: I think it was you know, it was over um, 541 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: over two million dollars she said he got from me. Yeah, 542 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: and I you know, I was in I mean, part 543 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: of what made me feel held back when he came 544 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: and found me was, um, you know that after my 545 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: relationship with Matthew, I was in a lot of debt 546 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: from that and I carried that and it was this 547 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: kind of it was a big weight and it was 548 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: you know, and then I had but you know, effectively 549 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: bought the restaurant from Jeffrey Chattero for a note, so 550 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: I owed that money. So I just felt sort of 551 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: I had been saddled with debt. And it's something hit 552 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: me the other day where I realized that it's been 553 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: twenty years that I've been a human being with like 554 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: unreeldy unmanageable, uh, large amounts of debt on It's been 555 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: twenty years, and I felt a lot of Yeah, what 556 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: is it now? What is the debt now? Um? I 557 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: think I said at the end of the film, um, 558 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: And then people acted like I didn't care because I laughed. 559 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: But I laughed because when I sat down and did 560 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: a rough total with a friend of mine. The number 561 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: that I came to was so large that it just 562 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: seemed like you know what I mean, it was like 563 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: it it made me laugh in a like holy sh 564 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: it kind of a way. Um, but it's it's you 565 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: between four and six million. But you know, again, I 566 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: don't necessarily know, because there's you know, in some some 567 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: places that you know who knows interest and penalties, and 568 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: and then there are some people. You know, I've heard 569 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: from some people who said, like, you know, oh, I've 570 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: written it off, don't worry. But so I don't know 571 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: the exact total, but it's something that I have to do. Um, 572 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: I will, you know. I sort of fantasize about the 573 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: day that it's completely paid and done. I get it. Um. 574 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: So the employee, there's a lot to go through. So 575 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: that's why I'm like, I want to make sure to 576 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: try to get to a lot of it. Many people 577 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: listening may not even realize that you were, uh, in 578 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: a relationship with a man who just kept, like like 579 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: the Tender Swindler times ten, kept asking for more and 580 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: more money, and you've got deeper and deeper. So I 581 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: just want people to like sort of a lot of 582 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: people know the story of it, maybe a lot don't. 583 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: So what about the employees, Now that's that's a big 584 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: hot ticket item. The employees who you seem to have 585 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: a great relationship with, they were skeptical of this relationship 586 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: with uh this Fox this Mr Fox and then you 587 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: owed them? What did you? What did you owe the 588 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: employees when you ran? And they were all picketing outside 589 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: the restaurant? Like, what's the actual number in totality? So 590 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: here's where And we'll get into the whole Netflix thing too. 591 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: You can talk about it, know what I'm saying. We're 592 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: going to get into everything and the inaccuracies, if there 593 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: are right and so among them is like I didn't run, 594 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: and also they they they were um, they were paid 595 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: and then he took me away and then they were 596 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: not paid and therefore owed money. So it's not like 597 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: I didn't pay them and then ran. Okay, but what 598 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: does that mean? But what does that mean? He took 599 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: you away? You you went away? I'm saying like you're 600 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: saying like in the cult mentality, you just were brainwash 601 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: and went like you did go away from your This 602 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: is now getting interesting because the cult people go there 603 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: and live there, and they're living that world and in 604 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: many cases they're farming and having sex with each other, 605 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: and like it's one like world. You still have a 606 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: business that you're running with people that aren't in this cult, 607 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: and so like you are like still living in the 608 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: world of having your own apartment. So so now you're 609 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: like leaving the people that work for you that you're 610 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: paying in a transactional business way and going awfully took you. 611 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: So that's where it gets strange and different. So I 612 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: want to really understand what that part means, because you're 613 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: leaving people, But then what do you mean what would 614 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: the show's movie shows that they're picketing while you're gone 615 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: or something? So can you explain what happened financially with 616 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: these employees? Well, you know, I only found out after 617 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: the fact, but um, what does what does that mean? Meaning? 618 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: Like when I was arrested in Tennessee, when I when 619 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: I first spoke to somebody, anybody, my sister, whoever it 620 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: was that I first spoke to from there, Um she 621 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: could have told me that the restaurant was still open 622 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: because somebody had kind of stepped in and taken over 623 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: and and it was still running for all I knew, 624 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: and so the entire whatever, I literally don't understand. Who 625 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: would have said, isn't it your restaurant? Yes? But I 626 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: mean theoretically somebody I don't know. Again, I just it's 627 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: hard to explain. It's like somebody taking me and putting 628 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: me in a quasi comma for nine months, right, But 629 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: you can't say someone could have cut Like, no one 630 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: could come in here and do this podcast for me 631 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: today because I've like decided to go somewhere even if 632 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: I'm in a coma. I'm just saying, like that thought 633 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: of someone could come in, like it is your restaurant 634 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: that you owe Jeffrey Chatterw money for it, I'm not 635 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: really could have you know, theoretically, I suppose in terms 636 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: of like who would have had the legal authority, you know, 637 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: he probably had the legal authority to come in or 638 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: somebody I don't know, But there's no like someone could 639 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: have the legal authority to come in. But like there 640 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: needs to be a conversation. It's a restaurant with like 641 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: raw food recipes, like someone can had to show up 642 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: and start making zucchini lasagna with dehydrated you know, and 643 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: and cash you like cheese, Like it's so, what was 644 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: the conversation when you're leaving, Like, isn't it like I'm 645 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: leaving my raw food restaurant, So Jeffrey, like you just 646 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: walked out of there, and like the employees can't run 647 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: a restaurant. Employees can't run my business. Oh mine could have. 648 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: They could have. This is where, you know, part of 649 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: the reason why I feel so close to people who've 650 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: been in cults is because you know, when I say 651 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: things that night sound kind of crazy or hard to 652 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: understand that other people, um the sort of former cult 653 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 1: people to get it. So when he told me that, 654 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: like to think of it as if time stopped and 655 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: we were just sort of like, you know, we had 656 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: to we had to step away. We had to we 657 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: had to walk away, and like being this altered like 658 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: um universe basically Yeah, So it was like as if 659 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: as if it wasn't real in a way, and I 660 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: and that sounds bonkers, but you know, there was a 661 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: moment um A guy that I know who was in 662 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: the Moonies and has since become a psychologist and gone 663 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: on to write really helpful books about cult psychology, UM 664 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: and talking about his experience on the Leamy on Leah 665 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: Remnis show. He said, at one point, he said, if 666 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: they had told me to kill somebody, I would have 667 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: and you know I wouldn't have. You know, I wouldn't 668 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: have killed somebody. I could. I'm pretty sure I could 669 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: say that I wouldn't have killed somebody. But I understood 670 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: the you know that it was painful to hear. Painful, 671 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: but also it's so tragic. It was tragic to hear 672 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: because I understood that. I understood how it could get 673 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: to that point, and so um so his taking me 674 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: away and and telling me that. Basically, it's to think 675 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 1: of it as if time, like as if the rest 676 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: of the world time stopped and we were like slipping 677 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: into an alternate like you know, some sort of parallel universe. 678 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: You know, I think I just you know, I don't know. 679 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: It's as if like I was some sort of subdued 680 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 1: animal that just became um, you know, somebody who he 681 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: could do this too. And you know, when I when 682 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: I talk about that time away sort of in shorthand, 683 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: I just you know, it's like I refer to it 684 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: as like the road trip from Hell, because um, you know, 685 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,479 Speaker 1: it's it's been sort of painful for it to be 686 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: depicted in you know, originally in the sort of tabloid 687 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: media and whatnot, as if like we ran off and 688 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: you know, when we're staying yeah, and like living the 689 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: high life and being and and and the reality was 690 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: so wildly, wildly different from that. The reality was more 691 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: like those videos that he had taken of me. Well, 692 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: that's okay, So I have a couple of questions about that. 693 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: So now you're away, So can you just tell me 694 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,959 Speaker 1: the number with the employees and where the money went 695 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: and where that is now, and what they're what they 696 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: all feel about it, what they all think about this 697 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: whole thing that they've been through. Well, the other it 698 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: was it was my impression, and I thought that I 699 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: was told that the end of the film was going 700 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: to state that they had all been paid because they've 701 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: been paid. They were paid in um or the amount 702 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: that they were owed was paid. Um. Yeah. So so normally, 703 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, one doesn't the thing about documentaries, which I 704 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: think I think there needs to be like a new category, 705 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: because you know, I say that bad being into like 706 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: should not be called a documentary. But normally people don't 707 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: get paid so um. On the one hand, you know, 708 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: people were assuming that I must have been paid millions 709 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: of dollars. I was not, but I was given an 710 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: amount that covered what the employees were owed. And so 711 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 1: you know when when that sort of went through, because 712 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: I agreed to participate, but I wanted that amount, that 713 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: amount that they were owed to get paid. Is that 714 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: why you did it? Well? I mean, I mean I 715 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: thought it was gonna I wanted it to be something 716 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 1: that would be useful and helpful, and so I wanted 717 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 1: to do I wanted to tell the story. Um. But 718 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,800 Speaker 1: I also you know, but I also wanted my employees paid. 719 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 1: So I worked that out as part of the deal. 720 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: So they were paid in March of it. Like just 721 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,959 Speaker 1: so happened that the Wired situation went through the day 722 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: that New York City of restaurants were shut down because 723 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: of the pandemic. Um. So I felt like that was 724 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: a good day for a lot of them who were 725 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: probably still in the restaurant business to get kind of 726 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: work that like, you know, the money's there, they can 727 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: whatever they were owed. Um, and what have they said? 728 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: Where are they with it? Now? Do you talk to 729 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: any of them? Like is it clean? I do? I 730 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: talked to a lot of them, I mean, with all 731 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: of the ones that I talked to in particular are 732 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: the ones who were there for a long time, who 733 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: knew me really well, and I think they knew, you know, 734 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: they knew me really well, as did a lot of 735 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: customers and sort of followers. Knew me well enough to 736 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: know that that business was my whole life of that 737 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: brand was like my identity. So they knew that that, 738 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: like they knew that something terrible happened, not that I 739 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: would have destroyed it, because that didn't make any sense. 740 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: And it was a valuable brand and we had so 741 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: many opportunities, so the idea that I would have willingly 742 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: destroyed it made no sense. So even if they didn't, 743 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, even if they didn't understand what had happened, 744 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: they knew that, like, something terrible happened, and that was 745 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: the drastic and so even I mean, it was painful 746 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 1: to see, like really painful to see those picketing images, 747 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: but I understood. To me, I kind of almost thought 748 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: of it as like as if because I had an 749 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: almost maternal relationship with all of them, in some ways, 750 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: I felt very protective of them, and so it was 751 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: as if, like Mom, you know, got this boyfriend that 752 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: she then went off the deep end with and abandoned them, 753 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 1: and so, um, of course they were angry. But you 754 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: know some of the people in those photos, Um, you 755 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: know it happened. I think a couple of times that 756 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: I ran into people just on the street in New 757 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: York and it was like we immediately fall into a 758 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 1: hug and I started crying. Wow. Um, so what about 759 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: where is he now? What happened? Did he respond? Did 760 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: he try to sue? Did what is he? Where did 761 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: that guy go? And what happened to him? Um? There 762 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 1: is an article written about where he is now, which, um, 763 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: he's in uh somewhere outside of l A apparently, which 764 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: is you know, good for me that he's on another coast. Um, 765 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: And I had followed, you know, I used to look 766 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: periodically every few weeks um before on Twitter, just to 767 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: kind of you know, because when somebody like that is 768 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,879 Speaker 1: out there, you would rather keep tabs on him, which 769 00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: is kind of part of the reason why I was 770 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: in touch with him on the first places. Like you'd 771 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: rather know where they are than worried that they're gonna 772 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, so I would I would kind of periodically 773 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: look at his Twitter, and I did see and then 774 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: he got booted off of Twitter. Um I don't know why, 775 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: but I can imagine he said something whatever. But um, 776 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: before that, I saw from some of the pictures, and 777 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: like I knew he had gone to ally, but as 778 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: a functioning individual, like as as what name as a no, 779 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean as as pretending he's I'm just 780 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: saying he's not. He's not been arrested. It's like a 781 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 1: tender swinow who's just living his life and no problem. 782 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: Well we were both arrested in Tennessee, that's right. And 783 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: then what happened was I got out on bail. He didn't, 784 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,879 Speaker 1: so he stayed. Uh, he stayed at Riker's for a year. 785 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: And then I got I got out on bail. You know, 786 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,720 Speaker 1: I thought my case, which was kind of pointless, and um, 787 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't going to go to trial because 788 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: I didn't have the stomach or the funds for that. 789 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,359 Speaker 1: So I did what a lot of people do and 790 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: just you know, take take the plea. And then you know, 791 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: the sickening thing was that I had to go and 792 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: serve um my months at writer as I call it, 793 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: my summer on the Island um after he was released, 794 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: So I was locked up while he was out free. 795 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: You know, now he's out free, clean slate, and I 796 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: had clean What does that mean? Clean slate for him? 797 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: Because I mean clean slate for him, because he's not 798 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: saddled with the deck even though technically, um, I think 799 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: we're jointly responsible for uh like roughly eight hundred and 800 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,280 Speaker 1: fifty thousand. But you know, he's one of those people 801 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: that he's never going to pay a dime and he 802 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: doesn't give a ship. So I will because I give 803 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 1: a ship, and I'll figure out a way too, you know, 804 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 1: I'll figure out some way down, you know, to to 805 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: make that happen. So and it's your opinion that the 806 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: money's gone, that it's gambled, that he's a gambler, and 807 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: you didn't even realize what a gambler he was, right, 808 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: And he didn't act like. He didn't he didn't act 809 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: like I don't think he's a typical gambling addict. I 810 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: think he's like more of the sociopathic variety where they 811 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: kind of don't really care. They like the risk and 812 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: the stimulation. And so it makes sense that he gambled, 813 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: but not in a way that it's different than a 814 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,240 Speaker 1: typical um like when a normal person has a gambling addiction. 815 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 1: It's like this tragic. It's very tragic because it's um, 816 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 1: you know, because they're just they're destroying their lives and 817 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,360 Speaker 1: they're like losing money and they feel guilt and shame 818 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: and la la la. He didn't none of that because 819 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 1: it's not his own money. Maybe there's a difference in 820 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: the emotional way you feel and it's not your own money, 821 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: and it's just you're playing with the house is money. 822 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 1: You're literally somebody like him. For me, if I was 823 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 1: like investing money on behalf of other people and I 824 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 1: lost it, I'd feel worse than I would. No, no, no no, no, 825 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: I'm saying, right, Okay, that's an interesting for somebody who 826 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 1: doesn't have a conscience, you know, it's just sort of 827 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: like life as a game and destroying actually people was 828 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: fun and um you know. And that's sort of the 829 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: point because people also have asked me a lot um. 830 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: You know, we were in this really strange town in 831 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: Tennessee and people like, well, what were you doing there? 832 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know, Well, what was the 833 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 1: plan if you hadn't been arrested, Like what was the plan. 834 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know. I have no idea. You know, 835 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: I didn't know if he had any money in the end. 836 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: I didn't know if he ran out of money. I 837 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: didn't know if he maybe he got us arrested intentionally, 838 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:28,400 Speaker 1: which is I know sounds weird, but I think that 839 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,800 Speaker 1: might have been the case. Um so Uh. There's a 840 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,360 Speaker 1: lot of unanswered questions, but they make more sense in 841 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: the context of him being um, the type of person 842 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: that he is without without a conscience and him I 843 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,360 Speaker 1: don't think so. I think that I maybe thought that 844 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: I was or um, it was more. It wasn't love. 845 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: It was like this sort of sickening attachment, kind of 846 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,800 Speaker 1: like do you ever feel anything towards him in your mind? 847 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: Like because it's in your body, having nothing to do 848 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: with logic, Like you were like if you were in 849 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 1: a cult, I wonder if you still do you still 850 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: like if you saw him, would he have the potential 851 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: to make you feel weak again in some way? Do 852 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: you think that hold on you in some weird stick way. Um, 853 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,879 Speaker 1: I would be well, I would be afraid to see him, 854 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,360 Speaker 1: but I would feel like now, I mean, I would 855 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: feel strong enough that I don't, you know, I'm I'm 856 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,880 Speaker 1: aware that, you know, he has this intense way of looking. 857 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: I'm aware that he could say anything in you know, 858 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 1: he could say all kinds of things, and you know, 859 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,879 Speaker 1: I wouldn't believe him unless he liked sprouted wings and 860 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,959 Speaker 1: you know, floated up in the air and turned into 861 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: a you know, shape shifted into some other. Like basically, 862 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: I wouldn't believe anything. Um, even though you probably didn't 863 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: before too. Though it's different, like you don't believe them, 864 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 1: but your body is believing them, Like you don't believe them, 865 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: but you're still going in that direction, did you what's 866 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 1: your relationship like with your parents? Now? Um, it's fine, 867 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: it's good. I mean my you know, my my two 868 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,880 Speaker 1: my parents are both you know, they're very kind of 869 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: down to earth, non judgmental people, and um, and it's 870 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,919 Speaker 1: to the extent that it's it's not strained with my mother, 871 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: but I feel it's upsetting that I I sort of 872 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: feel kind of queasy around her, not around her because 873 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,720 Speaker 1: of her, but because of the guilt that I feel 874 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 1: like like all of that was my fault. And so 875 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,359 Speaker 1: the extent to which she's you know, still working and 876 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:47,720 Speaker 1: not retired or feel like that's my fault self consciousness. Yeah, 877 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,200 Speaker 1: and we even um just the other day, I came 878 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 1: up with that there's something she wanted to ask me about. 879 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: So we agreed, we talked about it, but it's we 880 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: haven't talked about all of it in as much detail 881 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,360 Speaker 1: as one would think. I think in part because we 882 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: both find it kind of nauseating and like, you don't 883 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:08,400 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like, you don't you 884 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: don't really want to go there. So there's even things 885 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: where in writing my book, I'm I'm sort of like, well, 886 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,879 Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, I have questions that I want 887 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: to ask her, but then I don't even like but 888 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to. I don't want to put her 889 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,680 Speaker 1: in the position of having to go back there and remember. 890 00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:22,279 Speaker 1: So I'm just like, well, I just won't get the 891 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,359 Speaker 1: answer to that question, you know what I mean. It's 892 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 1: so that's that's how I do. I'm just my gut 893 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,239 Speaker 1: is saying to me, that's an interesting dynamic in your 894 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 1: household that it's sort of like, let's just brush it 895 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,359 Speaker 1: under the rug and athlete didn't happen where it could 896 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,360 Speaker 1: be healing. But also maybe there's something to that dynamic 897 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: that gravitated both of you towards this type of person 898 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,399 Speaker 1: that you both I don't want to say fell four 899 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: because you both got brainwash, but there's a certain personality 900 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,760 Speaker 1: type I'm sure people target, and I just think it's interesting. 901 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 1: Maybe you both should probably address it and start being 902 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: the active participants versus the the people that thinks have 903 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 1: been too. I just I'm not a shrink. I just 904 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,400 Speaker 1: that's the first thing that came to mind, Like you 905 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: should just you you fucked up, and you put her 906 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,000 Speaker 1: in a position and you were burning washed and then 907 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: she was brainwashed. It's a shitty situation. You feel guilty. 908 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 1: You might as well just bring it out. Not on 909 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,759 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner, but I feel like you should probably just 910 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 1: like lay it out. I mean, it's only we don't 911 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: talk about it at all, but it's just that you know, 912 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: the money is not everything, but this could this toxic, 913 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:34,560 Speaker 1: this toxin could probably it is bad. Is worse than 914 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,040 Speaker 1: losing money, I would say, So that's just that's my 915 00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 1: unsolicited opinion. You could throw it in the garbage. Yeah, 916 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 1: And and things with my father are also fine. He um. 917 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 1: He insisted on visiting me a lot when I was 918 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,000 Speaker 1: at writers, which I kept telling him he didn't need 919 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: to do because it's it's not like you just show 920 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 1: up and hey, I'm here and visit somebody. It's like 921 00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 1: a huge, huge ordeal and um he's you now, really 922 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 1: good chape. But he came. I think he came like 923 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:07,839 Speaker 1: four times to see me, which he insisted on doing so. 924 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,360 Speaker 1: And what was that experience like that being in jail? 925 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,799 Speaker 1: I mean it was it's it's my book doesn't even 926 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: go there. I'll have to write another because I don't 927 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: have time to get into that. But it was its own, um, 928 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 1: incredibly interesting experience that on the other side of it, 929 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: I feel like, um, I'm really grateful for being exposed 930 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 1: to things that, um it fall into that category of 931 00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:40,239 Speaker 1: things that make you a more compassionate person. Um. I mean, 932 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,719 Speaker 1: were you terrified? And was it not as bad as 933 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,799 Speaker 1: you thought? Like what I don't even mean, I just yeah, 934 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 1: just were you terrified? And what was it? What was 935 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,719 Speaker 1: it was? It? Was it a learning experience not just 936 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,359 Speaker 1: that you don't want to go back there, but just 937 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:59,600 Speaker 1: was there anything positive about being in prison? Um? I 938 00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,320 Speaker 1: think positive and and I mean it was an amount 939 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,319 Speaker 1: of time that was. It was a bummer, but it 940 00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,719 Speaker 1: wasn't like years, so it's not you know, I know 941 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,239 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that are falsely accused and 942 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,760 Speaker 1: convicted and go away for sometimes life and or even 943 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,719 Speaker 1: five years, ten years. That's all hideously awful. So you know, 944 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,200 Speaker 1: a summer effectively is not the end of the world. Um, 945 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: but it still sucks, and it still sucks. It's still scary. UM. 946 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,800 Speaker 1: I think in the film they asked, um, the director 947 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 1: asked my father if he was worried about me going 948 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,080 Speaker 1: to writers, and my father said, no, I knew should 949 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:43,160 Speaker 1: can handle herself. UM, which made me. I mean, it's 950 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 1: some people thought that would upset me, but it actually 951 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,719 Speaker 1: made me feel good. UM that he like had confidence 952 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,279 Speaker 1: that I would be able to handle myself. UM. And 953 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,680 Speaker 1: I did, and towards you know, the more the longer 954 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,359 Speaker 1: I was there, the more comfortable I got, so UM. 955 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,759 Speaker 1: I also, Um, Well, the sentence was four months, but 956 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,240 Speaker 1: I had already served roughly two weeks or twenty days 957 00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:08,560 Speaker 1: when I was first arrested before I was out on bail. 958 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,239 Speaker 1: So when I went back to do the remainder of 959 00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 1: the four months, it was like three and a half months, 960 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,120 Speaker 1: that's sometime. And yeah, it was the summer summer of 961 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,960 Speaker 1: sen so some people summer at the Hampton's summer that 962 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,359 Speaker 1: kers summers interesting, that's what crazy. Yeah, I mean there's 963 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,919 Speaker 1: there's a lot of a lot of crazy stuff happens there, 964 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,800 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of stuff to see just about 965 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 1: humanity in general. But um, but yeah, I mean it's 966 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 1: something I could I could write a separate book about 967 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,440 Speaker 1: just that part of it. Yeah, did you keep in 968 00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: touch with anybody from prisonage? You meny interesting people there? 969 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,000 Speaker 1: Like did you learn something? Were they hard on you 970 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 1: or just was it just just a crappy lodging experience 971 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 1: with some discipline? Um, you know, I learned a lot 972 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:02,239 Speaker 1: um even now I think I have. You know, I 973 00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,880 Speaker 1: haven't flown in a long time since before COVID, and 974 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,680 Speaker 1: so I was going through the security line and the 975 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,400 Speaker 1: way that, uh, they were sort of particularly grumpy t 976 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: s A. You know, sometimes they're like happy and care 977 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 1: and sometimes they're really grumpy and you're like afraid to like, 978 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,640 Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm gonna like I supposed to take 979 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,520 Speaker 1: my laptop out and I didn't know what me And 980 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:20,800 Speaker 1: then you have to take your shoes off and you 981 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:22,799 Speaker 1: have to walk through the security thing and all of 982 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,040 Speaker 1: it all of a sudden and kind of the way 983 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,160 Speaker 1: they're dressed all of a sudden. I was like reminding 984 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: me of being in jail. And I got through security 985 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,200 Speaker 1: and like burst into tears and I was like, WHOA, 986 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,239 Speaker 1: I guess that. I guess that still affects me in 987 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,040 Speaker 1: some way. Um. I was was not expecting. So there 988 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:44,000 Speaker 1: is there is um. Um. You know, there's something inherently 989 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,840 Speaker 1: sort of traumatic about being locked up. Um. But but 990 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 1: also there were things about it that I mean, I 991 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: read fifty plus books. I got a jillion letters from 992 00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,520 Speaker 1: people that were incredibly kind and well like, I got 993 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:04,240 Speaker 1: tons of letters, people mailed me loads of books. Um. 994 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,319 Speaker 1: And the longer I was there, the more confident I 995 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,080 Speaker 1: got in terms of I just handled myself in a 996 00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,040 Speaker 1: way that was very not I was able to like 997 00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 1: avoid any confrontation. So if somebody tried to engage me 998 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 1: and getting a fight or start something, I was just like, 999 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:20,920 Speaker 1: you couldn't. It was like trying to fight a noodle, 1000 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,279 Speaker 1: Like I wouldn't. I just wouldn't react. And UM, and 1001 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,000 Speaker 1: I think the um, you know, the people that I 1002 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:30,560 Speaker 1: was in the door because I was in a dorm 1003 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 1: with fifty other women and a lot of that. The 1004 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,880 Speaker 1: population and there is constantly rotating, so there are always 1005 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,840 Speaker 1: people coming in. But the people that were there the longest, 1006 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 1: um and the ones who sort of like ruled, you know, 1007 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,000 Speaker 1: there's always like group dynamics is always like the ones 1008 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:46,839 Speaker 1: that are in charge that everybody is afraid of. I 1009 00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,120 Speaker 1: have a good relationship with them. And yeah, so nobody, 1010 00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,319 Speaker 1: nobody really messed with me. Um wow, Okay, Well that's 1011 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,760 Speaker 1: nice and lucky and a good story, because I wouldn't. 1012 00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 1: It's all the movies for us. I think we it happened. 1013 00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,040 Speaker 1: It's it's really a big it happened. Like, you have 1014 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:04,640 Speaker 1: a reason to feel guilty. You have a reason to 1015 00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:06,400 Speaker 1: self load, you have a reason to be self conscious. 1016 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,239 Speaker 1: You have a reason for all these things you just said. 1017 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,240 Speaker 1: But you need to fucking put that away now into 1018 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,920 Speaker 1: a box. You could write a letter to all the 1019 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:16,880 Speaker 1: ten people, the Jeffrey Child or everybody, and you need 1020 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:18,759 Speaker 1: to seal that up with a key, and you need 1021 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,160 Speaker 1: to go to work and make money and start paying 1022 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,319 Speaker 1: these people back. Like if I understand you're upset, and 1023 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,680 Speaker 1: you should be, but like if you if we think 1024 00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,840 Speaker 1: about what's going wrong. If I think about all the 1025 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,480 Speaker 1: things that are going wrong, I can't do it. Like 1026 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,520 Speaker 1: and I'm pretty successful and I make a lot of money, 1027 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,120 Speaker 1: and I but like I go, so you have to, 1028 00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:41,080 Speaker 1: like just because I'm you've got to like become a 1029 00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:45,400 Speaker 1: little bit cold now. And it happened. I'm sorry to everybody. 1030 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,640 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Mom, I'm sorry. And now you have to 1031 00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:51,279 Speaker 1: pull yourself up in your bootstraps and start really making money, 1032 00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,080 Speaker 1: because then it can have an happy ending, like this 1033 00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:57,480 Speaker 1: can have a happy ending. Yeah, I mean, I actually 1034 00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,160 Speaker 1: I actually believe. And I think, um, you know, it's 1035 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,040 Speaker 1: not like I'm sitting here alone eating bond bonds and 1036 00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,759 Speaker 1: trying all day at all. So and I think that 1037 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,719 Speaker 1: you know what you said about putting it at a box. Um, 1038 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,360 Speaker 1: some people have said, you know, why would you you know, 1039 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,279 Speaker 1: why would you put yourself writing through the book? That 1040 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,880 Speaker 1: must be so hard. And for me, I feel like 1041 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,799 Speaker 1: that has been a necessary process to go through it, 1042 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, put myself through having to read all this stuff, 1043 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,440 Speaker 1: having to be really honest, and you know, writing, writing 1044 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,759 Speaker 1: the story, writing my feelings, writing importantly, writing as much 1045 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,000 Speaker 1: as I as much as I can figure out and um, 1046 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,240 Speaker 1: be insightful about how it happened. Hopefully when other people 1047 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:41,759 Speaker 1: read it, it will help them avoid stepping into the 1048 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,560 Speaker 1: same thing. So once I'm done writing that, it's like 1049 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,120 Speaker 1: then I feel like that that's and that's done, and 1050 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:51,279 Speaker 1: now I can kind of now I can move on 1051 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,239 Speaker 1: from trying to look at it and analyze it, and 1052 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,960 Speaker 1: that will be a big relief, um, when that's done, 1053 00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,239 Speaker 1: and I can kind of focus this cluse of we 1054 00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,839 Speaker 1: on other things. And I am focusing on other things, 1055 00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,040 Speaker 1: and I have you know, some things that are in 1056 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,120 Speaker 1: the works that will hopefully, um, you know, help me 1057 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,719 Speaker 1: enable me to be able to go on and do 1058 00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:16,560 Speaker 1: some useful productive things. Yeah, like like document I'm going 1059 00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,240 Speaker 1: to make four millions doll this is it. I'm starting 1060 00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,680 Speaker 1: my journey right now. I'm going to make four million dollars. 1061 00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,320 Speaker 1: And this is what I'm gonna do. I'm bar attending, 1062 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm an assistant, I'm dancing by the airport. Whatever you decide, 1063 00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,920 Speaker 1: you go and you're like, and then you show everybody 1064 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,680 Speaker 1: I got I I I made a mistake. I'm gonna 1065 00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:35,560 Speaker 1: pay my mother back, I'm gonna pay Jeffy back, and 1066 00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:37,360 Speaker 1: I'm going for it. It It would just I feel like 1067 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,720 Speaker 1: it would be like you survived Rikers, so like you, 1068 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:43,840 Speaker 1: you don't think about the debt, don't think about the past. 1069 00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:45,680 Speaker 1: I can make four million dollars, so you can make 1070 00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:49,080 Speaker 1: four million dollars. So that's what I that's my I've 1071 00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,200 Speaker 1: been very unsolicited in my opinions, and I don't believe 1072 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,000 Speaker 1: in them, so you can throw it all away. I 1073 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,240 Speaker 1: just I don't know why this, just because I know 1074 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,000 Speaker 1: all the people and because I saw it, and I 1075 00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,240 Speaker 1: don't know, and I just provoked me, so I wanted 1076 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:02,240 Speaker 1: to sort of talk to you. And like the Pep, 1077 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,480 Speaker 1: my fans were very invested in this too, So I 1078 00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,000 Speaker 1: feel like I'm trying to you know, get for them too, 1079 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,240 Speaker 1: not just to talk to you about. And I think 1080 00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,720 Speaker 1: there's a you know, going forward, there's a um, you know, 1081 00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,360 Speaker 1: I think there will always be a balance of UM. 1082 00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,800 Speaker 1: I think I'll always I'll always talk about it to 1083 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,480 Speaker 1: the extent that I feel like it's useful. Uh. And 1084 00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,240 Speaker 1: in particular because you know, a lot of a lot 1085 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,040 Speaker 1: of this sort of vitriol that's come at me and 1086 00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:30,280 Speaker 1: and people you know, yelling at me that it's my 1087 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,120 Speaker 1: fault and I'm a criminal. And this I've heard from 1088 00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: so many, mostly women, but some men, but mostly women, 1089 00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:41,000 Speaker 1: who will write me private messages that are absolutely heartbreaking, 1090 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,200 Speaker 1: and um, I feel like because I have this, because 1091 00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,160 Speaker 1: what's happened to me is very public, and I have 1092 00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:52,280 Speaker 1: a platform that I feel I feel responsible, Like I 1093 00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,040 Speaker 1: feel like I want to speak out for them because 1094 00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,320 Speaker 1: they don't have a platform and they can't talk about it. 1095 00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:59,120 Speaker 1: And they always said, you know what they what I 1096 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,560 Speaker 1: hear over and over and over again is um, you know, 1097 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,320 Speaker 1: watching your story now I feel less alone or you know, 1098 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,280 Speaker 1: and I get that happen that's happening to me. I 1099 00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 1: get that, that's the equation. It's jumping off the page 1100 00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: for me. The four to six million dollars, your mom, 1101 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:17,480 Speaker 1: it's just jumping at me. I get that you're helping 1102 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,840 Speaker 1: other people, you're paying for that's a touching story. And 1103 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,200 Speaker 1: it is, and there are other people saying that story too, 1104 00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,400 Speaker 1: and the world, the people the victims of the tender Swindler, 1105 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:29,040 Speaker 1: and the documentary showed it too. I think it should 1106 00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:32,560 Speaker 1: be doing that and check that box and figuring out 1107 00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,480 Speaker 1: a way to pay the like I owe nobody anything, 1108 00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,240 Speaker 1: and that would suffocate me, and that should be your 1109 00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,240 Speaker 1: main focus, not just helping it so that it could happen, 1110 00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,320 Speaker 1: but that should be the main focus. Just just like 1111 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,320 Speaker 1: I'm so unsolicited, I totally apologize and I'm not coming 1112 00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:50,000 Speaker 1: I'm really not. I'm just passionate about this. I don't 1113 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,160 Speaker 1: know what you know that reminds me of because I mean, yeah, 1114 00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:57,800 Speaker 1: I'm it is absolutely suffocating, and so you know, getting 1115 00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,560 Speaker 1: out from under that is is my main uh is 1116 01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:05,360 Speaker 1: my main priority. Um, but I did I think you 1117 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,360 Speaker 1: asked me in the beginning, you know what I know. 1118 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,440 Speaker 1: And I've never watched, Um, I've never watched Real Housewives 1119 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,040 Speaker 1: because I can't like people fighting makes me upset. Again, 1120 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,280 Speaker 1: I can't watch stuff like that what I did years 1121 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,760 Speaker 1: ago when um, when Beth to Me was on I 1122 01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:21,560 Speaker 1: and I don't watch a lot of TV, but I 1123 01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:23,440 Speaker 1: got like sucked in and I watched all of that 1124 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:28,200 Speaker 1: and I'll never forget one couple parts. But one part, um, 1125 01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:32,280 Speaker 1: when it was right when you sold your business and um, 1126 01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:34,000 Speaker 1: he sometimes I feel like you don't want to name 1127 01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:37,320 Speaker 1: certain people. But he said to you, Um, he said 1128 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,480 Speaker 1: to you, and in the moment, I think I started 1129 01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,120 Speaker 1: to crying. But he said to you, uh, something like, 1130 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,240 Speaker 1: now you can be selective about what you want to do, 1131 01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,520 Speaker 1: and I was like, that's what I want so badly. 1132 01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,200 Speaker 1: I want to be able to be selective about what 1133 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,360 Speaker 1: I want to do. I don't want to have to 1134 01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,520 Speaker 1: do something for money. I don't want to owe somebody. 1135 01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:58,920 Speaker 1: I don't want to have to do something because I 1136 01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:00,560 Speaker 1: feel like I owe them. I I want to have 1137 01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:02,680 Speaker 1: to do I want to do good work, and I 1138 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,520 Speaker 1: want to do it in an uncompromised way with integrity, 1139 01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,440 Speaker 1: and I want to you know, I want to do 1140 01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,240 Speaker 1: all these things. And that that's what I wanted so badly. 1141 01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:14,320 Speaker 1: So I remember that moment. Um you know, that moment 1142 01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 1: just stuck in my head when he said that, I 1143 01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,000 Speaker 1: was like, that's that's what I want. I just want 1144 01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:21,640 Speaker 1: to be able to, you know, move forward and grow 1145 01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:26,680 Speaker 1: this brand in a way that um young and Judge 1146 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,440 Speaker 1: Judy said, you could be you know, any age and 1147 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:32,680 Speaker 1: be an entrepreneur. And I didn't. I wasn't didn't become 1148 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,400 Speaker 1: really successful until my late thirties. My whole my book 1149 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,800 Speaker 1: business is Personal is out now and it's all about 1150 01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,600 Speaker 1: this stuff and how the mistakes become uh successes. This 1151 01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,160 Speaker 1: is a big, big fucking mistakes. So it's going to 1152 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,360 Speaker 1: be a whole to dig out. But because you do 1153 01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:51,600 Speaker 1: have a platform not just about not only about helping people, 1154 01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:55,400 Speaker 1: this has happened to which is important, and going back 1155 01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:59,000 Speaker 1: and backtracking while that happened psychologically and emotionally, while you 1156 01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:00,960 Speaker 1: have to do that, you don't have the luxury of 1157 01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,800 Speaker 1: just doing that. You have to get get a plan, 1158 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,720 Speaker 1: get on the road and start. It will be empowering 1159 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,280 Speaker 1: the minute you get the momentum of starting to make 1160 01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:14,400 Speaker 1: money and and and this debt will will You'll get unleashed. 1161 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,600 Speaker 1: So that's got to be that has to be a 1162 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,120 Speaker 1: major shift. Like I know that you're thinking about it 1163 01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:24,440 Speaker 1: and it's plaguing you, but it's like it's plaguing you. 1164 01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:26,960 Speaker 1: You need to be tackling it, Like it needs to 1165 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:30,280 Speaker 1: be your bitch now. That debt is. You're the bitch 1166 01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,200 Speaker 1: of that debt now, and you need to make that 1167 01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,760 Speaker 1: debt your bitch. That's the difference. Yes, about the about 1168 01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,440 Speaker 1: what's happened and your mother and the emotions and survivors 1169 01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:41,080 Speaker 1: and all that's great, but this debt you need to 1170 01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:43,479 Speaker 1: make your bitch, is all I'm saying let's starting now. 1171 01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:45,880 Speaker 1: I'm just I've never been like this on this podcast 1172 01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:48,320 Speaker 1: to anyone, so I know that it's right because I 1173 01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:50,880 Speaker 1: can't stop saying it. So I'm gonna stop saying it. 1174 01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:54,720 Speaker 1: But I'm just telling you you need to become a badass. 1175 01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:58,160 Speaker 1: Now you're a victim, and you need to become a badass. 1176 01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:01,360 Speaker 1: You were a victim. So that's that's just I don't 1177 01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:02,800 Speaker 1: want you to throw this advice away. I'm not going 1178 01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,200 Speaker 1: to say that again because I don't think you should. 1179 01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:10,760 Speaker 1: So anyway, Um, Alec Baldwin came up in this whole thing, 1180 01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,320 Speaker 1: which is funny, and he's been through his own ship storm. 1181 01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:15,400 Speaker 1: Has he surfaced in any of this or did he 1182 01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:17,200 Speaker 1: have any reaction to any of this? Or is he's 1183 01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:21,960 Speaker 1: just an anecdotal piece of this. Um. Well, we have 1184 01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,520 Speaker 1: spoken and I think that, you know, like everybody on 1185 01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:27,880 Speaker 1: the other side of it, he was probably you know, 1186 01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:32,440 Speaker 1: like what the hell happened? And embarrassingly, UM, I think 1187 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,760 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier when I got when I got out, um, 1188 01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:37,360 Speaker 1: when I got out on bail and I got back 1189 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:41,760 Speaker 1: into my email because I had been you know, Mr 1190 01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,440 Speaker 1: Fox had controlled my email that year that we were 1191 01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,280 Speaker 1: away and I so I, and I didn't have the password, 1192 01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,560 Speaker 1: so I had to like go through jump through hoops 1193 01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,920 Speaker 1: with Google to get back into my old email. And 1194 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,320 Speaker 1: when I got in there, um, I saw that he 1195 01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:58,320 Speaker 1: deleted all of our correspondence um between me and him. 1196 01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,880 Speaker 1: And then there was this moment where I was like huh, 1197 01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:05,480 Speaker 1: and then I clicked into the scent folder, and that, 1198 01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,320 Speaker 1: more than any other moments, I think that's when I 1199 01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,800 Speaker 1: wanted the meteor to hit me. And I like, I 1200 01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:12,880 Speaker 1: just was like, oh my god, oh my god. I 1201 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:14,960 Speaker 1: was reading these emails that he sent to people as 1202 01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:20,880 Speaker 1: me wanting to just die, and so Alec was one 1203 01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:22,320 Speaker 1: of those people that he had written to. You know, 1204 01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,360 Speaker 1: he also wrote to my little brother. He wrote back 1205 01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,560 Speaker 1: to people in my family. He wrote back to he 1206 01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,760 Speaker 1: was like begging people for money as me, and I'm 1207 01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:35,680 Speaker 1: I'm like oh yeah, and and and like put and 1208 01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:39,400 Speaker 1: then and and and one of Alex applies, he says 1209 01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,880 Speaker 1: something that's the equivalent of like you don't sound like you, 1210 01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, like what like he so, But the thing is, 1211 01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:50,840 Speaker 1: nobody really thinks like if you can eat some right, 1212 01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:53,920 Speaker 1: that doesn't occur to you. And I think that and 1213 01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:58,360 Speaker 1: that's why when it was like I couldn't to me, 1214 01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:00,600 Speaker 1: I felt like, kind of I feel so stupid, like 1215 01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:02,880 Speaker 1: trying to reach out to people and saying that wasn't me. 1216 01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:05,880 Speaker 1: But if anybody, if I could like open up that 1217 01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,880 Speaker 1: email and show people, like, here's all the emails and 1218 01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,560 Speaker 1: if you see them all together, because in some cases 1219 01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:14,000 Speaker 1: people would say to me, Okay, well you need to 1220 01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:16,840 Speaker 1: call me and we'll talk about it, and then that 1221 01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:18,960 Speaker 1: thread would drop and then they'd be like, I understand, 1222 01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:22,880 Speaker 1: why can't you call me? Um? You know so? And 1223 01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,240 Speaker 1: then there were emails there to Jeffrey chatero UM and 1224 01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,480 Speaker 1: that was just like that just made me feel so 1225 01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:34,000 Speaker 1: sick to my stomach and didn't say anything. Now like 1226 01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:36,480 Speaker 1: have they because this is a little bit of vindication. 1227 01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:38,440 Speaker 1: At least they got those emails. At least you have 1228 01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,520 Speaker 1: a little bit of indication. Have any have you spoken 1229 01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:44,400 Speaker 1: to Jeffrey or Alec? I've met Alec, I know Jeffrey 1230 01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:48,120 Speaker 1: you have. Yeah. I'm on I mean, I'm on good 1231 01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,000 Speaker 1: terms with most everybody. There are some people I haven't 1232 01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,200 Speaker 1: spoken to. Um And again, it's like what you're saying, 1233 01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:57,240 Speaker 1: so you know, to to go back and reach out 1234 01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:01,000 Speaker 1: to some of these people. It's it's draining, time consuming, 1235 01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:04,600 Speaker 1: and and people have said, well, why don't you reach 1236 01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:06,360 Speaker 1: out to this, and it's like, well, if I did that, 1237 01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,120 Speaker 1: that's all I'm doing. I want to focus on moving 1238 01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:10,960 Speaker 1: forward because I want to importantly repay all this I 1239 01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:12,840 Speaker 1: want to get out and I want to read. I'd 1240 01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:19,280 Speaker 1: rather focus on repaying, you know whatever. You don't need 1241 01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:22,560 Speaker 1: to talk like spending like an entire day with just 1242 01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:26,600 Speaker 1: you know, emotionally draining hours talking to somebody who may 1243 01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:30,240 Speaker 1: or may not understand. And so I'm sort of, you know, 1244 01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:32,040 Speaker 1: for any of those out there who have not heard 1245 01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:33,840 Speaker 1: from me, who might be wondering, like, why the hell 1246 01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,880 Speaker 1: hasn't she reached out, It's like I want to and 1247 01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:39,120 Speaker 1: then I'll but like I just want to I just 1248 01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:41,160 Speaker 1: want to find a way to repay everybody. I just 1249 01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:42,680 Speaker 1: want to get the money back and repay like I'd 1250 01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,360 Speaker 1: rather I'd rather reach out and go, hey, you know, 1251 01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:47,520 Speaker 1: what are your wiring instructions, and I want to give 1252 01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:49,640 Speaker 1: you some money back, and by the way, let's talk 1253 01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:52,200 Speaker 1: about what happened, you know. I don't. I just I'd 1254 01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:54,240 Speaker 1: rather be in a position of being able to repay 1255 01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:57,600 Speaker 1: them and and then talk about it. Um, I am, 1256 01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,440 Speaker 1: and like I said, because it's so dreamy, Yeah, I 1257 01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:02,200 Speaker 1: get it. I mean, you know how people say in 1258 01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:04,040 Speaker 1: a a like you have to apologize to everybody, and 1259 01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:05,320 Speaker 1: you could do that, I guess in your own way, 1260 01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:07,320 Speaker 1: but I would agree that it's more important for the 1261 01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:10,959 Speaker 1: action staff, and which is good. And then I guess 1262 01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:12,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I first of all, I 1263 01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,280 Speaker 1: thank you for talking to me. Um. I know I 1264 01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,280 Speaker 1: have an aggressive personality, so by no means that I 1265 01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:19,040 Speaker 1: want you to think that I was like coming at 1266 01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:20,520 Speaker 1: you or I have some angle or I thought it 1267 01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,720 Speaker 1: was something. I literally just wanted to talk to you 1268 01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:26,920 Speaker 1: about it because I just felt like I was gravitating 1269 01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:30,320 Speaker 1: towards the topic and the situation. It's a mixed bag 1270 01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,320 Speaker 1: of craziness and and um, and I just thought that 1271 01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, people could learn from it, that we 1272 01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:40,000 Speaker 1: could just have an honest conversation. So I really am grateful. 1273 01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:42,520 Speaker 1: And I think the other the other part of it 1274 01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:49,680 Speaker 1: that's used is that it can like it can help 1275 01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:53,200 Speaker 1: people recognize as if it might be happening to their 1276 01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,760 Speaker 1: sister or their friends. And so it's like the more 1277 01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:58,920 Speaker 1: people understand this type of a thing, and the more 1278 01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:04,360 Speaker 1: people understand and um like sociopathy and what that means 1279 01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:06,520 Speaker 1: and that it's a thing, and I hope that people 1280 01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:09,040 Speaker 1: start to understand it better. But then I also I 1281 01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:11,120 Speaker 1: hope it doesn't become one of those overused terms the 1282 01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:13,960 Speaker 1: way that like people kind of overuse gaslighting. Now, Oh, 1283 01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:16,760 Speaker 1: I know what you said. Well, by the way, it's important, yes, 1284 01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:23,519 Speaker 1: and you've talked about well, I've experienced psychological and verbal 1285 01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:28,960 Speaker 1: abuse and emotional abuse, and it is They say it's 1286 01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:32,040 Speaker 1: more harmful than physical abuse, and I have to say 1287 01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,160 Speaker 1: it's traumatizing, and it stays in your body for a 1288 01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:38,200 Speaker 1: long time, and you have like a shock reflex, two 1289 01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:41,519 Speaker 1: things that aren't normal to have a shock reflex too. 1290 01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:44,800 Speaker 1: I have been called every ugly name in the world. 1291 01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,960 Speaker 1: I have been told I'm garbage. I have been told 1292 01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:52,719 Speaker 1: things that that I've believed and thought like this is crazy, 1293 01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:54,920 Speaker 1: or just just just reacted in a way because someone 1294 01:08:55,000 --> 01:09:02,160 Speaker 1: was controlled, so controlling. So I understand how someone can 1295 01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:05,479 Speaker 1: really funk with you. If someone's entire life, if their 1296 01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:06,960 Speaker 1: goal is to fun with you, they can do it. 1297 01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:08,800 Speaker 1: If they're good at it. If they're good at it, 1298 01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:10,519 Speaker 1: they can do it. And I've heard from women who 1299 01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:12,439 Speaker 1: I heard from one woman who said she has a 1300 01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,720 Speaker 1: PhD in clinical psychology and she was manipulated to the 1301 01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,120 Speaker 1: extent she didn't know which way was up. Um. I've 1302 01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:22,000 Speaker 1: heard from people who you know, are powerful attorneys who 1303 01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:26,080 Speaker 1: have been manipulated. I mean, it happens to a lot 1304 01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,559 Speaker 1: of you know, intelligent and strong women. So it happens 1305 01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:32,680 Speaker 1: a lot to women when they're the more power the 1306 01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,960 Speaker 1: power figure, or the moneyed spouse. Well, because the man 1307 01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:39,960 Speaker 1: wants to get the control. Well right, for people who 1308 01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:42,600 Speaker 1: do this, it's like what they're getting out of it 1309 01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,800 Speaker 1: is taking you down, you know, So the more successful 1310 01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:48,880 Speaker 1: you are, or exactly the more you've accomplished, the more 1311 01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:51,720 Speaker 1: the more they want to destroy because that's that's the 1312 01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,040 Speaker 1: goal of it. The goal wasn't for him to take 1313 01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:56,000 Speaker 1: money from me, because then he would have taken it 1314 01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:58,760 Speaker 1: and hopped on a plane in Mexico and nobody would 1315 01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:00,960 Speaker 1: have bothered to go after him because who cares. But 1316 01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,439 Speaker 1: that wasn't his goal. His goal was, it appears the 1317 01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:08,600 Speaker 1: only thing that makes sense, was to kind of destroy me, 1318 01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,360 Speaker 1: but in a way that like to burn all the 1319 01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:14,600 Speaker 1: bridges and to make it maximally hard for me to 1320 01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,040 Speaker 1: turn around and make a comeback. So I've had the 1321 01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:18,920 Speaker 1: same I've had been threatened I'm going to ruin your 1322 01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:21,240 Speaker 1: life and ruin your career, like I I've literally and 1323 01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:24,160 Speaker 1: and worked really hard to do that. And when one 1324 01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:26,719 Speaker 1: and it's hard to describe that to other people because 1325 01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:30,240 Speaker 1: this one person has a goal and you're if they 1326 01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:33,599 Speaker 1: haven't got anybody could. It's really amazing A small gnat 1327 01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,960 Speaker 1: buzzing in your ear constantly could drive you and saying 1328 01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,960 Speaker 1: could destroy your life. Like so it's and it takes 1329 01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:44,400 Speaker 1: a strong constitution to overcome that and to battle that 1330 01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:46,240 Speaker 1: and beat that down, which I have done. But I 1331 01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:52,240 Speaker 1: really do. I do understand firsthand what stalking, harassment, being 1332 01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:56,439 Speaker 1: emotionally abused is like. And I haven't been that vocal 1333 01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,920 Speaker 1: about it specifically for many reasons, but I really understand 1334 01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:02,760 Speaker 1: it um And that probably is also why this was 1335 01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:06,400 Speaker 1: something that attracted me to talk about with you. So 1336 01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:10,040 Speaker 1: net the Netflix piece, so you feel that it wasn't 1337 01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:12,760 Speaker 1: that it was not fairly portrayed, or that there were 1338 01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,839 Speaker 1: like little cute nuances that are manipulative to the audience, 1339 01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:18,360 Speaker 1: and you've had to like stand up and clarify things 1340 01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:23,400 Speaker 1: because it's just frustrating. Um, it seems like yeah, and 1341 01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:25,839 Speaker 1: you know, and for anyone who's for anyone who's interested, 1342 01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:29,040 Speaker 1: I wrote a very I wrote a long, detailed like 1343 01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,120 Speaker 1: point by point um here, and I haven't even rewatched it. 1344 01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:35,680 Speaker 1: So I think if I once I kind of get 1345 01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:37,719 Speaker 1: the strength to sit down and rewatch it, I'll probably 1346 01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:39,840 Speaker 1: see a lot of other things. But it's not that 1347 01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:42,920 Speaker 1: i'm you know, I figured, of course, it's a crazy 1348 01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:45,599 Speaker 1: story that I didn't even understand, especially when I did 1349 01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:47,720 Speaker 1: those interviews because it was kind of early on. So 1350 01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:51,280 Speaker 1: I figured, you know, sure, certainly they'll get some things wrong, 1351 01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:53,640 Speaker 1: but I didn't think it would be intentional. And I 1352 01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,200 Speaker 1: think it's very clear from the things that were um, 1353 01:11:56,520 --> 01:12:00,000 Speaker 1: certain editorial choices that were made that it was delivered 1354 01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:01,920 Speaker 1: were it. And so that's what I wrote about on 1355 01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:05,800 Speaker 1: my website, kind of point by point um, which ones 1356 01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:08,800 Speaker 1: really matter because I got the gist of the whole story. 1357 01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:11,880 Speaker 1: I think you're very and so I want to hear 1358 01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:16,960 Speaker 1: what really really matters, um, you know, like I think that, well, 1359 01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:18,880 Speaker 1: the big one is the call at the end, because 1360 01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:21,640 Speaker 1: I think you know, you said that you understood it 1361 01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:24,880 Speaker 1: to be sort of something that the director did, or 1362 01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,000 Speaker 1: you understood that it was sort of there for some reason, 1363 01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,080 Speaker 1: but you didn't see it the way some other people 1364 01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:32,479 Speaker 1: came away with it, which seems weird. But a lot 1365 01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:35,439 Speaker 1: of people came away with it like like as if 1366 01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:38,800 Speaker 1: I was in on it whatever that means, all along 1367 01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:41,120 Speaker 1: or something, because it sounded awkward. It sounded like a 1368 01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:44,320 Speaker 1: weird re enactment phone call. It sounded strange. It sounds 1369 01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:46,880 Speaker 1: like someone said call him and you guys were talking 1370 01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:50,400 Speaker 1: and it was weird, like that's what it was recorded 1371 01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:52,720 Speaker 1: for the film. So you know, it's not like I was. Yeah, 1372 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,760 Speaker 1: it did not sound but I don't think that. I mean, 1373 01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:56,679 Speaker 1: maybe people are love on co finant to the Picnic, 1374 01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:58,439 Speaker 1: but I mean I could watch it again. It did 1375 01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,719 Speaker 1: not sound like you guys we're in cahoots. It sounded 1376 01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,080 Speaker 1: a little bit like a either what I just said 1377 01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:06,200 Speaker 1: or this guy is such a sickle that he still 1378 01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:08,000 Speaker 1: has some sort of hold on him that you still 1379 01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:10,519 Speaker 1: you know, when you talked to him, you still have 1380 01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:12,720 Speaker 1: a weird feeling that you can't control. I don't mean 1381 01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:14,160 Speaker 1: that you're in love with him, but like and that 1382 01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:17,240 Speaker 1: like have lo van almost That's the two options that 1383 01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:19,400 Speaker 1: I had in my mind watching it. Not that like 1384 01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:23,599 Speaker 1: you guys were bandits ripping everybody off and the money 1385 01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:26,320 Speaker 1: like in Switzerland somewhere. Yeah, I think a lot of 1386 01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:31,040 Speaker 1: people unfortunately thought that. But um, you know, it didn't 1387 01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:33,280 Speaker 1: sound like I was very friendly with him, but the 1388 01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:35,080 Speaker 1: you know, it was like I was, I was playing 1389 01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:37,439 Speaker 1: a role, and it was deliberate because I was trying 1390 01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,560 Speaker 1: to get him to talk about things, and it was 1391 01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:43,559 Speaker 1: probably like a forty minute phone call, and so they 1392 01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:45,960 Speaker 1: just played this little part of it where you know, 1393 01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:50,680 Speaker 1: I'm deliberately and strategically, you know, having a conversation with him, 1394 01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:53,720 Speaker 1: knowing that I'm talking to a right that was a 1395 01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:58,120 Speaker 1: little so the reason I'm kind of laughing and casual 1396 01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:01,560 Speaker 1: with him and sort of is like, I'm doing that deliberately, 1397 01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,800 Speaker 1: and that was, you know, I don't know if that 1398 01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:05,320 Speaker 1: was the beginning. I don't know. I didn't go back 1399 01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:07,760 Speaker 1: to the call to listen to see specifically that I 1400 01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:09,600 Speaker 1: get where you're coming from, because it seemed like you 1401 01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:11,200 Speaker 1: were a little chucky and it was awkward. But I 1402 01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:13,320 Speaker 1: don't think like I would not like I would check 1403 01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:16,000 Speaker 1: that box of Netflix as being just like a production 1404 01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:17,880 Speaker 1: thing and being a little cute and editing, but not 1405 01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:20,800 Speaker 1: like crazy. What else did they do that was agreed to? 1406 01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,160 Speaker 1: I mean sort of, but all of it combined, So 1407 01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,240 Speaker 1: there are a lot of things before that that would 1408 01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:29,640 Speaker 1: allow somebody to think that I might have been in 1409 01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,960 Speaker 1: on it. So um, you know, one part is there's 1410 01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:36,040 Speaker 1: a part where I start to talk about um like 1411 01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:42,639 Speaker 1: a it's almost like implied sexual abuse, but it cuts 1412 01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:44,439 Speaker 1: off where I think in the in the film, I 1413 01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:46,599 Speaker 1: say something about how he would make me drink wine 1414 01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:50,360 Speaker 1: and then like you know, do things, and then it 1415 01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:55,040 Speaker 1: ends there. And I know that that. You know, somebody 1416 01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:57,559 Speaker 1: who was there and saw the footage said like, oh 1417 01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:00,200 Speaker 1: my god, that footage is so compelling, and I was 1418 01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:02,920 Speaker 1: sort of you know, when I first saw the film, 1419 01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,960 Speaker 1: I was shocked because I was sure that that was 1420 01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:07,560 Speaker 1: going to be in it, because I was told it 1421 01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,320 Speaker 1: was incredibly compelling, and part of me, like my initial 1422 01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:13,599 Speaker 1: reaction was like that part of me was relieved, because 1423 01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:15,640 Speaker 1: of course, you know, it would have been embarrassing and 1424 01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:18,600 Speaker 1: I would be like ugly crying on, you know, and 1425 01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:22,040 Speaker 1: all of that footage where I talked more in detail 1426 01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:25,640 Speaker 1: about that part of what he did was left out 1427 01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:27,880 Speaker 1: of the film. Um, and I think that had it 1428 01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:30,360 Speaker 1: been included, then nobody would have been confused at the end. 1429 01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:33,400 Speaker 1: And so they were like things like that that had 1430 01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:35,800 Speaker 1: they had they been done differently, people wouldn't have been 1431 01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:39,800 Speaker 1: people wouldn't come away with this sort of controversial because 1432 01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:41,400 Speaker 1: I think all of that stuff was done to create 1433 01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:43,800 Speaker 1: this controversy, like did she do it? Did she not 1434 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:47,640 Speaker 1: do it? That was understand and so and also like 1435 01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:51,160 Speaker 1: it made it well, they don't know, they don't know. 1436 01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:53,599 Speaker 1: I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm not like I don't work 1437 01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:57,719 Speaker 1: for and it wasn't it was Chris Smith, the director. 1438 01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:01,599 Speaker 1: More because the movie was made and then sold to Netflix, 1439 01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:06,200 Speaker 1: so and and Netflix their marketing was really, um, really 1440 01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:10,400 Speaker 1: really grotesque. And again it's it's like what I said before, 1441 01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:13,960 Speaker 1: like I feel really, I feel angry, and I feel 1442 01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:19,000 Speaker 1: on behalf of other people who've been psychologically abused because 1443 01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:20,760 Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, I sort of made fun 1444 01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:22,559 Speaker 1: of the whole thing. Oh, you feel like you went 1445 01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:26,040 Speaker 1: back into another bad relationship with them in the way 1446 01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:27,720 Speaker 1: it was portrayed, like you just wanted your story to 1447 01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:30,600 Speaker 1: be told in a certain way. Well, anyway I I 1448 01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:33,680 Speaker 1: I understand where you're coming from. I appreciate you, know 1449 01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:36,799 Speaker 1: you coming on here. It's not easy to keep reliving, 1450 01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:40,680 Speaker 1: and um, I just wanted to get some perspective and 1451 01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:44,720 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. And UM, I really wish you the 1452 01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:48,640 Speaker 1: best of luck. I wish you success and freedom and 1453 01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:51,240 Speaker 1: a good relationship with your family about this and just 1454 01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:53,160 Speaker 1: to be able to move forward while you're still young 1455 01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:56,800 Speaker 1: and healthy and have your whole life ahead of you. Yeah, 1456 01:16:56,920 --> 01:17:00,799 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel do feel regard those of what happened. 1457 01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:03,360 Speaker 1: I do feel lucky that you know, I have a home, 1458 01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:07,280 Speaker 1: I'm healthy, I have my dog. You know, lots of 1459 01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,000 Speaker 1: things are fine, and you know I'm not there, you know, 1460 01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:17,680 Speaker 1: whatever is happening, it's like I can handle, you know, right, 1461 01:17:18,040 --> 01:17:21,120 Speaker 1: And also you know, like I'm safe, I'm fine. Everything's good. 1462 01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:23,639 Speaker 1: You know, I have a home, I have food. It's 1463 01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:25,400 Speaker 1: not I'm not like in a war zone and whatnot. 1464 01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,400 Speaker 1: So I do feel grateful, and I feel grateful that 1465 01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:31,160 Speaker 1: I have a platform and opportunities. You know, I know 1466 01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:33,120 Speaker 1: I have all these opportunities. I know that a lot 1467 01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:36,240 Speaker 1: of women that are devastated in these types of situations, 1468 01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:38,800 Speaker 1: like I don't have any of that or and they 1469 01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:40,960 Speaker 1: have you know, they might have children involved, which makes 1470 01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:45,040 Speaker 1: it just exponentially more tragic. So I feel you have 1471 01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:47,960 Speaker 1: a voice. I do feel lucky and optimistic. I've always 1472 01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,400 Speaker 1: been optimistic, So I like that, and I love your 1473 01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:52,559 Speaker 1: I want I would. I would literally pay a lot 1474 01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:55,400 Speaker 1: of money for those cash us right now, those raw, 1475 01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:59,280 Speaker 1: spicy sweet cash shoes. You would. That's fine. Everybody everybody 1476 01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:01,800 Speaker 1: has their favorite, you know, people are always starting out 1477 01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:05,560 Speaker 1: to many different things. But yeah, so maybe you'll do 1478 01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,880 Speaker 1: that again because that is very current. That's very current. 1479 01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:11,840 Speaker 1: That's that's would be way more lucrative now than even then. 1480 01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:15,280 Speaker 1: It's very current. So well, I appreciate you, and um, 1481 01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:16,920 Speaker 1: I hope you have a great day and I can't 1482 01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:19,360 Speaker 1: wait to hear what happens next. All right, thank you 1483 01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:33,960 Speaker 1: so much. Awesome, have a great day. Wow. So that 1484 01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:37,720 Speaker 1: was an interesting interview. I honestly, it brought up so 1485 01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:41,200 Speaker 1: much for me to talk to Sarma because of that 1486 01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:43,840 Speaker 1: I know some of the people involved. Uh So it 1487 01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,120 Speaker 1: just was something that I was shocked to find on 1488 01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:50,080 Speaker 1: television that I've experienced some of the things that she's 1489 01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:53,000 Speaker 1: gone through. So that was thought provoking that I'm a 1490 01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:56,000 Speaker 1: business person and that being in debt would just cripple 1491 01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:57,600 Speaker 1: me and it would just be the only thing I 1492 01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:01,680 Speaker 1: focused on. And I wanted to talk to her, um 1493 01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:05,200 Speaker 1: just to get an understanding. I didn't even know what 1494 01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:07,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to know. I just was intrigued by this 1495 01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:09,680 Speaker 1: whole topic, and I didn't want to badger her, you know, 1496 01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:12,080 Speaker 1: because I don't do that. I don't want to have 1497 01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:14,240 Speaker 1: someone on here so I can just be the superior 1498 01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:17,400 Speaker 1: person and the authority on anything, because I'm not. I 1499 01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:20,200 Speaker 1: just wanted to talk to her on behalf of you 1500 01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:25,440 Speaker 1: and the employees. And you know, you're running a restaurant 1501 01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:27,400 Speaker 1: and you leave a restaurant for nine months. You can't 1502 01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:30,920 Speaker 1: leave a business for nine days without like a very 1503 01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:34,120 Speaker 1: serious plan, literally nine days. I can't just leave my 1504 01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:36,599 Speaker 1: business for nine days and have the things run smoothly, 1505 01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:39,760 Speaker 1: like absolute fact. So a restaurant where it's a raw 1506 01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:41,680 Speaker 1: restaurant back in his time where that wasn't even a 1507 01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:44,400 Speaker 1: current thing, and people's paychecks and payroll and running a 1508 01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:48,360 Speaker 1: business and taxes and crazy things like that, Like, there's 1509 01:19:48,439 --> 01:19:52,679 Speaker 1: no way that Jeffrey Chotteroh can run someone else's business, 1510 01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,800 Speaker 1: even if he's the investor. That was the craziest part 1511 01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:57,679 Speaker 1: to me. I just had to understand as a business owner, 1512 01:19:57,760 --> 01:19:59,559 Speaker 1: like you can't walk away from a restaurant for nine months. 1513 01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,000 Speaker 1: It must have been a circus in there. I just 1514 01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:04,400 Speaker 1: wish I paid more attention back then. But anyway, she 1515 01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:06,880 Speaker 1: was in some sort of a trance, and I never 1516 01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:10,840 Speaker 1: questioned someone's emotional experience and abuse experience that, you know. 1517 01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:12,560 Speaker 1: I just wanted to get to the bottom of this 1518 01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:18,120 Speaker 1: whole crazy labyrinth and web that was woven, and um, 1519 01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:20,880 Speaker 1: she's got work to do. It's time to get to work. 1520 01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:22,880 Speaker 1: It's great that you're communicating. It's great that you're talking 1521 01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:24,840 Speaker 1: to survivors. It's great that you're getting the message out. 1522 01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:27,320 Speaker 1: It's great that you're helping future victims. You've got to 1523 01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:30,160 Speaker 1: help former victims too, So let's get out there and 1524 01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:33,240 Speaker 1: make some money and pay off our deaths. That was interesting, 1525 01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:35,639 Speaker 1: and I am grateful to her for coming on, because 1526 01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,040 Speaker 1: it's not easy to come on and talk when you 1527 01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:42,000 Speaker 1: are a heated person who's been part of a massive scandal. 1528 01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:44,400 Speaker 1: So I give her credit for that.