Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast name m Keene, jay Leie.
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Speaker 1: to say, We're in Newport Beach, California, at Pimcoe's global
Speaker 1: headquarters alongside me as the CEO Money Roman and the
Speaker 1: c i O Dan Iverson. Guys Greater to catch up
Speaker 1: with you both. What a day to be speaking about
Speaker 1: the global bond market. I actually want to begin though
Speaker 1: in Q four the equity markets crater in the credit
Speaker 1: market arguably is seizing GARB, and pretty much every single
Speaker 1: one of the major funds here at Pimco delivers positive returns.
Speaker 1: How do we arrive at that moment? Monny Well, I
Speaker 1: would say that's the occasion to show we get tested,
Speaker 1: and we get tested in difficult markets, and we had
Speaker 1: a view thanks too down on value and what the
Speaker 1: right position was to have before QUE four. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say we saw that coming, but proper risk management and
Speaker 1: proper liquidity medic avoid the problem and we're quite pleased
Speaker 1: about the result in QUE four defensive arguably twelve months
Speaker 1: ago down going into the key final quarter, coming out
Speaker 1: of it and deciding to re risk is a different proposition.
Speaker 1: De risking is one thing than having the I guess,
Speaker 1: enthusiasm confidence to say now is the time to re risk,
Speaker 1: that's a different question. You approached that by saying now
Speaker 1: is the time to re risk, slightly buy some of
Speaker 1: the weakness what we three, what you actually did coming
Speaker 1: into the new year. I think that's right. That you know,
Speaker 1: in response to an environment in the fourth quarter where
Speaker 1: we did sense that markets were overshooting fundamentals, we decided
Speaker 1: as a firm in across these strategies to add risk
Speaker 1: in liquid more liquid areas of the market, as more
Speaker 1: of a tactical view, uh, not trying to be too
Speaker 1: overconfident and looking at time bottoms and markets, but usually
Speaker 1: the opportunity where others needed liquidity at that point in
Speaker 1: time to add risk on the margin and look to
Speaker 1: generate a bit more total return, at least during the
Speaker 1: first half of the year. So many people talk about
Speaker 1: the process and how the process is different. It doesn't
Speaker 1: matter what asset manager I speak to, they say, our
Speaker 1: process is different. That gives us our ridge. What is
Speaker 1: so special about the process here down We have a
Speaker 1: large team, we have a global footprint. I think that
Speaker 1: it starts there um, so we have access to different
Speaker 1: areas of the markets that certain firms do not. And
Speaker 1: then I think the other key theme, and one of
Speaker 1: the reasons we're here discussing the secular outlook today is
Speaker 1: that we take a long term orientation. We don't try
Speaker 1: to time markets over different quarters, you know, even over
Speaker 1: the course of you know, a one year period. With
Speaker 1: that longer term orientation, you know, we try to protect
Speaker 1: our clients from areas of the market where from the
Speaker 1: ellups and where the ingredients are there for work extreme underperform.
Speaker 1: What do you think that froth is right now, there's
Speaker 1: froth you know, across different areas of the market, But
Speaker 1: by far the area of most concerned for us here
Speaker 1: at PIMCO is in the credit markets and specifically relating
Speaker 1: to corporate credit risk. That's an area where you know,
Speaker 1: we've had about a decade now, are very low yields
Speaker 1: in an area where we're getting you know, a lot
Speaker 1: more concerned about fundamentals. And it's course spader spading, and
Speaker 1: it's been a great time for week issuers to issue
Speaker 1: paper in Europe and in the US who was very
Speaker 1: weak covenant, and it's been good for them. And I
Speaker 1: think we've shy away from morning disposition. And when things
Speaker 1: get worse, do you think we'd have many opportunity to
Speaker 1: buy them cheap? You think things aren't gonna get worse
Speaker 1: for sure? On the on the week on the weak
Speaker 1: high credit was weak covenant in business which are cyclical.
Speaker 1: Of course, what was interesting about spending the day with
Speaker 1: you guys is actually how bearish you sound around corporate credit.
Speaker 1: But we bond managers were always barish, right well, typically
Speaker 1: that's the store, sorry, but but much more so relative
Speaker 1: to your competition. I speak to bond investors on a
Speaker 1: daily basis. I have to say I've been struck by
Speaker 1: just how bearished down the firm seems to be on
Speaker 1: corporate credit right now. It's a it's a subtle point.
Speaker 1: I think when we look at the world today, we
Speaker 1: see some near tournament certainty that could be resolved, at
Speaker 1: least to some degree, tremendous mental liquidity combinative central banks,
Speaker 1: so within the credit sector, spreads can certainly go tighter
Speaker 1: over the short term but this is the signal area
Speaker 1: of the financial markets that are prone to overshooting to
Speaker 1: the downside when people's views towards economic growth change, and
Speaker 1: as many said, as primarily fixed income managers, the most
Speaker 1: important task that we need to focus on is avoiding
Speaker 1: permanent capital impairment or the type of downside volatility that's
Speaker 1: likely to take place when people begin to fear credit
Speaker 1: risk once again money. You mentioned some of the excesses
Speaker 1: that we've experienced over the last couple of years. It's
Speaker 1: being with some members of the team. They think maybe
Speaker 1: things could get a whole lot more excessive in the
Speaker 1: coming years. There was a comparison used earlier on It's
Speaker 1: way now in the period approaching the mid two thousand's.
Speaker 1: Is that historical parallel that you're thinking about increasingly in
Speaker 1: the coming years. I think we do. I think I
Speaker 1: think we will both say it's very hard to call
Speaker 1: the turn of the market. But what you want to
Speaker 1: have is a framework where you think of value and
Speaker 1: you say, given us enario, what are you going to do?
Speaker 1: What are the things you want to buy? And make
Speaker 1: sure that we do what we say we're going to do.
Speaker 1: So you know, why do we take pride in what
Speaker 1: of funds offered because in times of turbanent market, when
Speaker 1: equity go down, we need to perform. We are the
Speaker 1: building block in people's portfolio where they want to count
Speaker 1: on us to perform in difficult markets, and the last
Speaker 1: thing they need is us to be overweight in lazy
Speaker 1: credit where the credit drops fifteen points and we haven't
Speaker 1: done property or work. Within the secular outlook, number five
Speaker 1: is the one that really stuck out. So make financial
Speaker 1: or market vulnerabilities the idea that the market no longer
Speaker 1: absorbs the news, it makes the news. Dan, talk to
Speaker 1: me a little bit more about that. How concerned are
Speaker 1: you about this financial market vulnerability that you've highlighted in
Speaker 1: the report. We're quite concerned. Now again, you know this dynamic. Uh.
Speaker 1: It may take some time for this dynamic to rear
Speaker 1: it's ugly head, but we're concerned about the markets being
Speaker 1: able to facilitate risk transfer when investor mindsets change. Uh.
Speaker 1: We saw a preview of that in the fourth quarter.
Speaker 1: So as an active manager, you need to be prepared
Speaker 1: for market overshooting and ideally, if you're prepared, you could
Speaker 1: profit from that. The keyword there many active UM. I
Speaker 1: imagine the argument for active is a whole lot stronger
Speaker 1: over the last twelve months that it once was were
Speaker 1: active for fixed income. So I think I think we
Speaker 1: have a very different view than most waiving active fixed
Speaker 1: income management, that it is the good and it's as
Speaker 1: simple as this, and there are reason why this is
Speaker 1: the case. They are structural reason in terms of how
Speaker 1: the indices are computed. There are behavior reasons why some
Speaker 1: agents in the market have none company non economic reason
Speaker 1: to buy papers. Think of the Central Bank. I think
Speaker 1: sometimes of insurance company who have servency issues. And so
Speaker 1: we think we can deliver constituentally axcess return of a
Speaker 1: benchmark in a much easier way than equity managers can.
Speaker 1: And so when I hear about active versis passive, I said,
Speaker 1: don't talk to us. We've delivered a good on a one,
Speaker 1: three or five, an ten year basis. But there are reasons,
Speaker 1: and our job is somehow easier than equity managers, and
Speaker 1: I think we we acknowledge this. But it's a lot
Speaker 1: of tools we can do. Imagine a company. A company
Speaker 1: always has two hundred bonds outstanding, some trading dollars, some
Speaker 1: trading years. You can serve them back there's so many
Speaker 1: things we can do. We can use derivative, there's so
Speaker 1: many things we can do to enhance value and deliver better.
Speaker 1: It sounds to me like, do you think you can
Speaker 1: avoid the right of department phase? You won't be part
Speaker 1: of that. We won't be part of this. You need
Speaker 1: to stigment your offering. You need to say this is
Speaker 1: a value proposition. We're never going to be the cheapest.
Speaker 1: We're trying to add value day after day. We want
Speaker 1: to be there when things are difficult, and we want
Speaker 1: to be too, you know, we need to invest into
Speaker 1: our business and have other things to offer which go
Speaker 1: beyond simple performance. Well, do do you think that's unique
Speaker 1: to PIMCO or just unique to fixed income bond investors?
Speaker 1: To to manage point quite clear that there's a big
Speaker 1: difference between the equity investor and the fixed income investors
Speaker 1: as specific to PIMP or specific to fixed income investing.
Speaker 1: But I think the advantages that we have relate to
Speaker 1: the fact that we're operating in the fixed in camacy
Speaker 1: class where you have noneconomic players that work, you know,
Speaker 1: literally every day that trading markets are open. I would
Speaker 1: uh and do believe that PIMCO has some advantages at
Speaker 1: this stage of the cycle. We've had about a decade
Speaker 1: of convergence in terms of beta compensation. Going forward, we
Speaker 1: think it's gonna be much more challenging environment and environment
Speaker 1: with lower base case returns but much higher volatility. And
Speaker 1: in that type of environment, Pimpco should excel given the
Speaker 1: depth and breadth of our resources across markets and size matters.
Speaker 1: I mean, the reality is we have a lot of
Speaker 1: people who helped them delivers the performance from you know,
Speaker 1: seventy credit analysts to a hundred quant and these people
Speaker 1: matter in terms of long term sustainable returns. So what
Speaker 1: what often people don't see is the need for investment
Speaker 1: inside the kitchen and the need for investment is growing.
Speaker 1: One way, if you needed twenty people twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: you need two hundreds today. Let's talk about that further.
Speaker 1: I have so many people say I need a bigger team,
Speaker 1: We need to invest in technology more digdator as the future.
Speaker 1: Help me understand what you guys are actually doing right now,
Speaker 1: how that you create alpha developed that story by investing
Speaker 1: in tech, investing in people actually can be so real.
Speaker 1: Examples down how does it work? There are one areas technology,
Speaker 1: technology and analytics, acquiring larger data sets, UH, utilizing those
Speaker 1: data sets, you know, understanding key drivers of return. We
Speaker 1: even use this big data for economic forecasting, UH, coming
Speaker 1: through a lot of offerings as well. So that's one area,
Speaker 1: you know, the highly technical aspects of data collection. Another
Speaker 1: area that we've been spending a lot of time and
Speaker 1: many has been quite helpful in this arena is in
Speaker 1: behavioral finance, UH, working with this research to make better
Speaker 1: personal decisions when we look to retract. And we've got
Speaker 1: a tough in amera. I mean, I mean the the
Speaker 1: the biggest problem of fund management is other confidence. And
Speaker 1: so we signed this partnership with University of Chicago. Why
Speaker 1: because we wanted to have a way to rationally see
Speaker 1: how we make decision, what we do well, what we
Speaker 1: do less well, how we optimize risk and a portfolio,
Speaker 1: and be able to back that with data. Can you
Speaker 1: give us a real life example of how this is
Speaker 1: how in the last twelve months I've done sure. We
Speaker 1: literally have teams that look at senior portfolio managers how
Speaker 1: we make decisions across markets relative to what's optimal. So,
Speaker 1: for example, do we tend to hold out to losers
Speaker 1: a little bit longer than we should do. We run
Speaker 1: with trades that are working out on behalf of investors
Speaker 1: long enough. Uh, we get that information. It's sometimes puts
Speaker 1: us a little bit of an uncomfortable area because it
Speaker 1: reminds you of how the brain is playing tricks. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it leads to better
Speaker 1: structure where we can understand our own tendencies and biases,
Speaker 1: even within the PIMCO group, ideally learned from it, and
Speaker 1: then make better decisions going forward. And this is a
Speaker 1: type of research stream that we intend to continue for
Speaker 1: many years to come. You've acted on these conclusions, Manti, Yes,
Speaker 1: we do, we do, and I think I think it's
Speaker 1: a constant evolution. Right, There's plenty of things we learned,
Speaker 1: you know, we we were just were is welcome, Richard
Speaker 1: THEATO is a consultant, you know, to think about a retirement,
Speaker 1: but also to think of how we may decision. You know.
Speaker 1: Then there's something great in the I. C is always
Speaker 1: the last one to talk, so everyone has a chance
Speaker 1: to opine, and the most senior guy is not the
Speaker 1: one who lecture everybody for ten minutes before everyone has
Speaker 1: a chance to talk with Guess what you know? People
Speaker 1: usually don't disagree with the buss once it's talk for
Speaker 1: ten minutes and so and so you need to have
Speaker 1: a process and you need to think about the process,
Speaker 1: so everyone has a voice from other portfolio managers to
Speaker 1: quant to behavior, finance and be able to kind of
Speaker 1: combine all of this together to you know, make the
Speaker 1: best possible portrait, even in the new office outside of
Speaker 1: the comfort of the West coast. How's that going and
Speaker 1: how does that attract the kind of talent Ultimately one
Speaker 1: of attracts at them card. So we thought, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think Dan and I an executive committee, thought that
Speaker 1: we needed an office to be able to hire talent
Speaker 1: and technology. And I think it's fair to say than
Speaker 1: when it comes to hire tech people, we compete against
Speaker 1: other financial companies, but we also compete against big tech
Speaker 1: company and also startup And we looked at six different
Speaker 1: locations and concluded that Austin, given the university, was the
Speaker 1: best place for us over the next twenty years to
Speaker 1: hire significant amount of talent and technology. And then we're
Speaker 1: going to move, you know, some small part of the
Speaker 1: businesses which makes sense to be in Texas, and so
Speaker 1: that was quite attractive and we did a quite in
Speaker 1: depth study and and and and you know, so far
Speaker 1: we have a better hundred people down there. You've been expanding,
Speaker 1: you've expanded in some municiples as well. What's left any
Speaker 1: gaps here at PIMCOW that you're looking to fill and
Speaker 1: it holds that you'd like to fill out the next
Speaker 1: coming years. I think the main thing is not so
Speaker 1: much what you need to feel, is whether you know
Speaker 1: something about it and how you're going to grow it.
Speaker 1: And I think we are of the view that we
Speaker 1: want to grow organically and that from time to time
Speaker 1: there may be small things we can do and bring
Speaker 1: to the PIMCO organization, but by large, it's hurrying people,
Speaker 1: and it's make sure that we understand what we're good
Speaker 1: at and what we're not good at, and and and
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of introspection which comes into this
Speaker 1: and making sure that we do that well. And a
Speaker 1: lot of what we're trying to do is anticipate the
Speaker 1: next investment opportunity for our clients. So, you know, we
Speaker 1: talked about credit, credit issuance, development of markets. A lot
Speaker 1: of that's a credit outside the United States with an
Speaker 1: emerging markets across Asia. You know, even in pockets of Europe.
Speaker 1: So a lot of our growth areas are focused on
Speaker 1: where we anticipate there to be the best return. In
Speaker 1: this business, you have to start sometimes multiple years before
Speaker 1: that opportunity actually is out there and ready to be
Speaker 1: realized upon. So that's one of the key areas of
Speaker 1: our focus resources with a slight tilt towards credit outside
Speaker 1: the United States, let's talk about private credit markets. Is
Speaker 1: that an opportunity money that you'd like to ded what
Speaker 1: it is? An opportunity and it's something that we've been
Speaker 1: doing for limited that right, eleven years and it's an
Speaker 1: opportunity and it's going to become even more attractive when
Speaker 1: the business cycle turns. How scalable is it, Well, it's
Speaker 1: never going to be as scalable as what PIMCO does
Speaker 1: on the liquid side, and you know what, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: But what we do think is that there are opportunity
Speaker 1: because of what banks used to do that they don't
Speaker 1: do anymore, for us to do various things. And it
Speaker 1: goes from lending against real estate to buying securities in housing,
Speaker 1: to being able to opportunistically do direct lending, to do
Speaker 1: various private credit transaction which if managed properly and constructed
Speaker 1: the right way, should deliver ten to twelve of the
Speaker 1: business cycle, never fit and and and and that's the
Speaker 1: opportunity for us and for other people and then big returns.
Speaker 1: And they key question is other people. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: an incredibly competitive environment right now. And we've talked about
Speaker 1: areas whether it might be froth. Is that an area
Speaker 1: down where that might be a better froth? Well, again,
Speaker 1: you know, consistent with our views are corporate credit on
Speaker 1: the public side. That's where we see the froth in
Speaker 1: terms of direct corporate credit issuance. Outside the financial space.
Speaker 1: We look at areas like commercial real estate, residential real estate,
Speaker 1: private or public, we continue to see considerable opportunity. That's
Speaker 1: a sector that, despite the global financial crisis being eleven
Speaker 1: years past, where we still see frictions and markets where
Speaker 1: we still see opportunities for investors on the private side
Speaker 1: as well as the public side. And that's really been
Speaker 1: our focus for now looking at the harvest opportunities within
Speaker 1: that space. How important is that alquidity premium so to speak,
Speaker 1: that you can get out of private credit markets money, Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's two fold. I think I think we were
Speaker 1: just written a paper on this. It's probably a couple
Speaker 1: of percent and and and I'm I'm so over simplifying
Speaker 1: what the paper is about. But people get compensated for
Speaker 1: holding eloquent securities and and and there are people who
Speaker 1: can very easily hold this kind of paper. I think
Speaker 1: offensition plan for example, who don't need the liquidity you
Speaker 1: think of insurance company. And so there are people who
Speaker 1: can own this. And clearly it's one of the most
Speaker 1: interesting risk preming. But more importantly, it's also a way
Speaker 1: to structure transaction where you think you have an edge
Speaker 1: and where you understand an industry better than most. And
Speaker 1: we're going to find part of what we're currently doing
Speaker 1: very very attractive and some other things not so attractive.
Speaker 1: And I think we we're quite cognizant of that. We're
Speaker 1: recognizing the liquidity is one thing. The liquidity illusion in
Speaker 1: public markets down is something you've talked about in the past,
Speaker 1: and I'd like to talk to you about it now.
Speaker 1: Do you think enough people are focused on that You've
Speaker 1: talked about financial market vulnerability is the potential for more
Speaker 1: gaping markets. It's a market that's got bigger participation, arguably
Speaker 1: is increased over the last several years. And yet fundamentally,
Speaker 1: just in term sort of structure, it's a market that's
Speaker 1: got weaker. Just makes sense of that for people, Well,
Speaker 1: people talk about it, people are aware of the risks.
Speaker 1: Then you'll have a volatility event like the fourth quarter
Speaker 1: last year. When you look at returns, it appears that
Speaker 1: people are more exposed to this. Uh. These less liquid
Speaker 1: areas of the market then would be suggested from the rhetoric,
Speaker 1: but we haven't been tested yet. Volatilities have been relatively
Speaker 1: low the last several years. UM. You just have to
Speaker 1: take a look and feel the markets from a day
Speaker 1: to day trading perspective to know that when views shift,
Speaker 1: there's going to be overshooting. Uh. And we don't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean that this is going to lead to another financial
Speaker 1: crisis per se. We do think it's gonna lead a
Speaker 1: disappointment in the form of overshooting. You'll constantly in and
Speaker 1: out of the market. What's changed in the last five years?
Speaker 1: What is it that has changed that you can identify
Speaker 1: just in terms of being in and out of the market.
Speaker 1: What's different it's really been the last decade. UM. There's
Speaker 1: less willingness for market participants to step in and provide
Speaker 1: a buffer when investor views change. More often than not,
Speaker 1: in the type of markets we operate in today, it's
Speaker 1: about lining up a buyron seller on the other side.
Speaker 1: If that buyer does it happen to be there or
Speaker 1: seller does it happen to be there, you end up
Speaker 1: with this overshooting dynamic. So liquidity management from the standpoint
Speaker 1: of an active asset manager needs to be top of
Speaker 1: mind today and I think that that's going to be
Speaker 1: likely one of the route awakenings that we referred to
Speaker 1: in our in our more recent secular out And I
Speaker 1: think generational experience also matters, and that's one of the
Speaker 1: things that we've explored in terms of behavioral finance, the
Speaker 1: fact that that when you've seen different business cycle you
Speaker 1: sort of recognize pattern. You know, this looks like nineteen
Speaker 1: one and this looks like nine, And I think what
Speaker 1: has changes. You have a whole generation of people who
Speaker 1: basically sort of greatest boolmarket since two dozand and nine
Speaker 1: and us keep on going up really steadily for a
Speaker 1: very very long time. When you have the committe's meetings,
Speaker 1: do you see the difference in terms of investor buses
Speaker 1: within PIMCO based on the age, based on the demographics.
Speaker 1: Is that something you see quite clearly, we noticed differences
Speaker 1: of you. Now, whether that's I s or perspective is
Speaker 1: always tough to up front. I think it's a little
Speaker 1: bit of both. From time to time, it is a
Speaker 1: worry that it's been a long long time since people
Speaker 1: have gone through a period of heightened volatility or have
Speaker 1: gone through a credit cycle. And that's why sometimes you know,
Speaker 1: as an active asset manager, it's best to sit back,
Speaker 1: be patient and read economic history books as opposed to
Speaker 1: be on your terminal trading every day. I mean, it
Speaker 1: gives you Bloomberg come on money one bias and give
Speaker 1: you one bias one biases. You know, we do like
Speaker 1: company who eventually makes money. Now, it's okay to lose
Speaker 1: money for a while. It's even okay to lose money
Speaker 1: for a long time if you're acquiring a lot of customers.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, we're sort of
Speaker 1: hoping that there will be an at some point in
Speaker 1: time and people do make money. So you guys, I
Speaker 1: think that's that's that's there's a generation of people who
Speaker 1: clearly think it doesn't matter. Essentially, you guys, then therefore
Speaker 1: looking to be what you called liquidity providers and not
Speaker 1: liquidity demanders. There's a period of time that you're waiting
Speaker 1: for that's building a moment where you want to keep
Speaker 1: this dry powderforn have senced it all day speaking to you, guys,
Speaker 1: I mean this could be several years away. Are you
Speaker 1: willing to sit out the period of excess that could develop?
Speaker 1: I've prepaired us a couple of years. Then are you
Speaker 1: willing to want to perform what say some of your
Speaker 1: payers could be delivering in terms of gains by being defensive?
Speaker 1: The answer is yes. The good news is there's been
Speaker 1: enough localized volatility dislocation over the last couple of years
Speaker 1: where you can be defensive, you can be patient, you
Speaker 1: can be relatively liquid and still generating incremental return. If
Speaker 1: you get to a point like we were in back
Speaker 1: in two thousand five or two thousand six, where there's
Speaker 1: a direct trade off between short term performance UH and
Speaker 1: being defensive, we absolutely willing to do that. It's absolutely
Speaker 1: essential as an active manager and perfectly consistent with generating
Speaker 1: strong returns open It's not just something you're willing to do,
Speaker 1: it's something you're anticipating happening, isn't it. That's correct? And
Speaker 1: I think that you know, maybe you see a boxers
Speaker 1: analogy that this is a counterpunching type market. Um, sit back,
Speaker 1: be patient, and wait for others in the market to
Speaker 1: ask for liquidity and then provided, assuming you're getting sufficiently compensated.
Speaker 1: So it's subtle, but it means be defensive, the patient,
Speaker 1: be more liquid, look for lots of little trades along
Speaker 1: the way that hopefully can generate some incremental return, and
Speaker 1: then strike when you have these bouts of volatility. We
Speaker 1: haven't had that much of that the last decade, but
Speaker 1: going forward the next five or ten years, we think
Speaker 1: it's a type of environment where that style of active
Speaker 1: management's going to win out in the end. No, I
Speaker 1: very much agree, and I think I think that we
Speaker 1: were sort of hoping for more difficult environment and and
Speaker 1: and once again, whether it happens in six months so
Speaker 1: in in two years, it's very hard to chord it.
Speaker 1: But um, but I think we're going the firm for
Speaker 1: more to mature of this market and and and making
Speaker 1: sure we have the resources and we have a game bran.
Speaker 1: And I think having a game bran and sort of
Speaker 1: thinking about various options and various opportunities is what we
Speaker 1: get paid to do. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Surveillance Podcast. Subscribe and listen to interview us on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,
Speaker 1: or whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Tom Keene before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide.
Speaker 1: I'm Bloomberg Radio