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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast name m Keene, jay Leie.

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Speaker 1: We bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,

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Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg Place

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Speaker 1: to say, We're in Newport Beach, California, at Pimcoe's global

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Speaker 1: headquarters alongside me as the CEO Money Roman and the

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Speaker 1: c i O Dan Iverson. Guys Greater to catch up

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Speaker 1: with you both. What a day to be speaking about

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Speaker 1: the global bond market. I actually want to begin though

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Speaker 1: in Q four the equity markets crater in the credit

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Speaker 1: market arguably is seizing GARB, and pretty much every single

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Speaker 1: one of the major funds here at Pimco delivers positive returns.

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Speaker 1: How do we arrive at that moment? Monny Well, I

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Speaker 1: would say that's the occasion to show we get tested,

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Speaker 1: and we get tested in difficult markets, and we had

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Speaker 1: a view thanks too down on value and what the

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Speaker 1: right position was to have before QUE four. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say we saw that coming, but proper risk management and

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Speaker 1: proper liquidity medic avoid the problem and we're quite pleased

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Speaker 1: about the result in QUE four defensive arguably twelve months

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Speaker 1: ago down going into the key final quarter, coming out

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Speaker 1: of it and deciding to re risk is a different proposition.

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Speaker 1: De risking is one thing than having the I guess,

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm confidence to say now is the time to re risk,

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Speaker 1: that's a different question. You approached that by saying now

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Speaker 1: is the time to re risk, slightly buy some of

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Speaker 1: the weakness what we three, what you actually did coming

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Speaker 1: into the new year. I think that's right. That you know,

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Speaker 1: in response to an environment in the fourth quarter where

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Speaker 1: we did sense that markets were overshooting fundamentals, we decided

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Speaker 1: as a firm in across these strategies to add risk

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Speaker 1: in liquid more liquid areas of the market, as more

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Speaker 1: of a tactical view, uh, not trying to be too

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Speaker 1: overconfident and looking at time bottoms and markets, but usually

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Speaker 1: the opportunity where others needed liquidity at that point in

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Speaker 1: time to add risk on the margin and look to

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Speaker 1: generate a bit more total return, at least during the

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Speaker 1: first half of the year. So many people talk about

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Speaker 1: the process and how the process is different. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter what asset manager I speak to, they say, our

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Speaker 1: process is different. That gives us our ridge. What is

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Speaker 1: so special about the process here down We have a

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Speaker 1: large team, we have a global footprint. I think that

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Speaker 1: it starts there um, so we have access to different

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Speaker 1: areas of the markets that certain firms do not. And

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Speaker 1: then I think the other key theme, and one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons we're here discussing the secular outlook today is

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Speaker 1: that we take a long term orientation. We don't try

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Speaker 1: to time markets over different quarters, you know, even over

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Speaker 1: the course of you know, a one year period. With

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Speaker 1: that longer term orientation, you know, we try to protect

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Speaker 1: our clients from areas of the market where from the

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Speaker 1: ellups and where the ingredients are there for work extreme underperform.

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Speaker 1: What do you think that froth is right now, there's

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Speaker 1: froth you know, across different areas of the market, But

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Speaker 1: by far the area of most concerned for us here

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Speaker 1: at PIMCO is in the credit markets and specifically relating

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Speaker 1: to corporate credit risk. That's an area where you know,

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Speaker 1: we've had about a decade now, are very low yields

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Speaker 1: in an area where we're getting you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: more concerned about fundamentals. And it's course spader spading, and

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Speaker 1: it's been a great time for week issuers to issue

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Speaker 1: paper in Europe and in the US who was very

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Speaker 1: weak covenant, and it's been good for them. And I

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Speaker 1: think we've shy away from morning disposition. And when things

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Speaker 1: get worse, do you think we'd have many opportunity to

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Speaker 1: buy them cheap? You think things aren't gonna get worse

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Speaker 1: for sure? On the on the week on the weak

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Speaker 1: high credit was weak covenant in business which are cyclical.

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Speaker 1: Of course, what was interesting about spending the day with

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Speaker 1: you guys is actually how bearish you sound around corporate credit.

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Speaker 1: But we bond managers were always barish, right well, typically

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Speaker 1: that's the store, sorry, but but much more so relative

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Speaker 1: to your competition. I speak to bond investors on a

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Speaker 1: daily basis. I have to say I've been struck by

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Speaker 1: just how bearished down the firm seems to be on

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Speaker 1: corporate credit right now. It's a it's a subtle point.

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Speaker 1: I think when we look at the world today, we

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Speaker 1: see some near tournament certainty that could be resolved, at

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Speaker 1: least to some degree, tremendous mental liquidity combinative central banks,

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Speaker 1: so within the credit sector, spreads can certainly go tighter

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Speaker 1: over the short term but this is the signal area

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Speaker 1: of the financial markets that are prone to overshooting to

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Speaker 1: the downside when people's views towards economic growth change, and

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Speaker 1: as many said, as primarily fixed income managers, the most

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Speaker 1: important task that we need to focus on is avoiding

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Speaker 1: permanent capital impairment or the type of downside volatility that's

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Speaker 1: likely to take place when people begin to fear credit

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Speaker 1: risk once again money. You mentioned some of the excesses

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Speaker 1: that we've experienced over the last couple of years. It's

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Speaker 1: being with some members of the team. They think maybe

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Speaker 1: things could get a whole lot more excessive in the

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Speaker 1: coming years. There was a comparison used earlier on It's

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Speaker 1: way now in the period approaching the mid two thousand's.

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Speaker 1: Is that historical parallel that you're thinking about increasingly in

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Speaker 1: the coming years. I think we do. I think I

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Speaker 1: think we will both say it's very hard to call

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Speaker 1: the turn of the market. But what you want to

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Speaker 1: have is a framework where you think of value and

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Speaker 1: you say, given us enario, what are you going to do?

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Speaker 1: What are the things you want to buy? And make

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Speaker 1: sure that we do what we say we're going to do.

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Speaker 1: So you know, why do we take pride in what

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Speaker 1: of funds offered because in times of turbanent market, when

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Speaker 1: equity go down, we need to perform. We are the

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Speaker 1: building block in people's portfolio where they want to count

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Speaker 1: on us to perform in difficult markets, and the last

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Speaker 1: thing they need is us to be overweight in lazy

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Speaker 1: credit where the credit drops fifteen points and we haven't

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Speaker 1: done property or work. Within the secular outlook, number five

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Speaker 1: is the one that really stuck out. So make financial

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Speaker 1: or market vulnerabilities the idea that the market no longer

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Speaker 1: absorbs the news, it makes the news. Dan, talk to

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Speaker 1: me a little bit more about that. How concerned are

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Speaker 1: you about this financial market vulnerability that you've highlighted in

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Speaker 1: the report. We're quite concerned. Now again, you know this dynamic. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It may take some time for this dynamic to rear

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Speaker 1: it's ugly head, but we're concerned about the markets being

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Speaker 1: able to facilitate risk transfer when investor mindsets change. Uh.

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Speaker 1: We saw a preview of that in the fourth quarter.

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Speaker 1: So as an active manager, you need to be prepared

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Speaker 1: for market overshooting and ideally, if you're prepared, you could

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Speaker 1: profit from that. The keyword there many active UM. I

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Speaker 1: imagine the argument for active is a whole lot stronger

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Speaker 1: over the last twelve months that it once was were

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Speaker 1: active for fixed income. So I think I think we

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Speaker 1: have a very different view than most waiving active fixed

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Speaker 1: income management, that it is the good and it's as

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Speaker 1: simple as this, and there are reason why this is

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Speaker 1: the case. They are structural reason in terms of how

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Speaker 1: the indices are computed. There are behavior reasons why some

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Speaker 1: agents in the market have none company non economic reason

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Speaker 1: to buy papers. Think of the Central Bank. I think

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Speaker 1: sometimes of insurance company who have servency issues. And so

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Speaker 1: we think we can deliver constituentally axcess return of a

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Speaker 1: benchmark in a much easier way than equity managers can.

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Speaker 1: And so when I hear about active versis passive, I said,

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Speaker 1: don't talk to us. We've delivered a good on a one,

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Speaker 1: three or five, an ten year basis. But there are reasons,

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Speaker 1: and our job is somehow easier than equity managers, and

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Speaker 1: I think we we acknowledge this. But it's a lot

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Speaker 1: of tools we can do. Imagine a company. A company

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Speaker 1: always has two hundred bonds outstanding, some trading dollars, some

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Speaker 1: trading years. You can serve them back there's so many

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Speaker 1: things we can do. We can use derivative, there's so

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Speaker 1: many things we can do to enhance value and deliver better.

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Speaker 1: It sounds to me like, do you think you can

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Speaker 1: avoid the right of department phase? You won't be part

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Speaker 1: of that. We won't be part of this. You need

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Speaker 1: to stigment your offering. You need to say this is

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Speaker 1: a value proposition. We're never going to be the cheapest.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to add value day after day. We want

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Speaker 1: to be there when things are difficult, and we want

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Speaker 1: to be too, you know, we need to invest into

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Speaker 1: our business and have other things to offer which go

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Speaker 1: beyond simple performance. Well, do do you think that's unique

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Speaker 1: to PIMCO or just unique to fixed income bond investors?

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Speaker 1: To to manage point quite clear that there's a big

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Speaker 1: difference between the equity investor and the fixed income investors

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Speaker 1: as specific to PIMP or specific to fixed income investing.

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Speaker 1: But I think the advantages that we have relate to

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Speaker 1: the fact that we're operating in the fixed in camacy

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Speaker 1: class where you have noneconomic players that work, you know,

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Speaker 1: literally every day that trading markets are open. I would

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Speaker 1: uh and do believe that PIMCO has some advantages at

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Speaker 1: this stage of the cycle. We've had about a decade

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Speaker 1: of convergence in terms of beta compensation. Going forward, we

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Speaker 1: think it's gonna be much more challenging environment and environment

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Speaker 1: with lower base case returns but much higher volatility. And

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Speaker 1: in that type of environment, Pimpco should excel given the

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Speaker 1: depth and breadth of our resources across markets and size matters.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the reality is we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who helped them delivers the performance from you know,

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Speaker 1: seventy credit analysts to a hundred quant and these people

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Speaker 1: matter in terms of long term sustainable returns. So what

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Speaker 1: what often people don't see is the need for investment

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Speaker 1: inside the kitchen and the need for investment is growing.

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Speaker 1: One way, if you needed twenty people twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: you need two hundreds today. Let's talk about that further.

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Speaker 1: I have so many people say I need a bigger team,

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Speaker 1: We need to invest in technology more digdator as the future.

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Speaker 1: Help me understand what you guys are actually doing right now,

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Speaker 1: how that you create alpha developed that story by investing

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Speaker 1: in tech, investing in people actually can be so real.

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Speaker 1: Examples down how does it work? There are one areas technology,

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Speaker 1: technology and analytics, acquiring larger data sets, UH, utilizing those

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Speaker 1: data sets, you know, understanding key drivers of return. We

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Speaker 1: even use this big data for economic forecasting, UH, coming

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Speaker 1: through a lot of offerings as well. So that's one area,

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Speaker 1: you know, the highly technical aspects of data collection. Another

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Speaker 1: area that we've been spending a lot of time and

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Speaker 1: many has been quite helpful in this arena is in

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Speaker 1: behavioral finance, UH, working with this research to make better

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Speaker 1: personal decisions when we look to retract. And we've got

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Speaker 1: a tough in amera. I mean, I mean the the

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Speaker 1: the biggest problem of fund management is other confidence. And

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Speaker 1: so we signed this partnership with University of Chicago. Why

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Speaker 1: because we wanted to have a way to rationally see

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Speaker 1: how we make decision, what we do well, what we

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Speaker 1: do less well, how we optimize risk and a portfolio,

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Speaker 1: and be able to back that with data. Can you

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Speaker 1: give us a real life example of how this is

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Speaker 1: how in the last twelve months I've done sure. We

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Speaker 1: literally have teams that look at senior portfolio managers how

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Speaker 1: we make decisions across markets relative to what's optimal. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, do we tend to hold out to losers

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Speaker 1: a little bit longer than we should do. We run

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Speaker 1: with trades that are working out on behalf of investors

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Speaker 1: long enough. Uh, we get that information. It's sometimes puts

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Speaker 1: us a little bit of an uncomfortable area because it

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Speaker 1: reminds you of how the brain is playing tricks. But

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it leads to better

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Speaker 1: structure where we can understand our own tendencies and biases,

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Speaker 1: even within the PIMCO group, ideally learned from it, and

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Speaker 1: then make better decisions going forward. And this is a

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Speaker 1: type of research stream that we intend to continue for

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Speaker 1: many years to come. You've acted on these conclusions, Manti, Yes,

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Speaker 1: we do, we do, and I think I think it's

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Speaker 1: a constant evolution. Right, There's plenty of things we learned,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we were just were is welcome, Richard

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Speaker 1: THEATO is a consultant, you know, to think about a retirement,

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Speaker 1: but also to think of how we may decision. You know.

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Speaker 1: Then there's something great in the I. C is always

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Speaker 1: the last one to talk, so everyone has a chance

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Speaker 1: to opine, and the most senior guy is not the

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Speaker 1: one who lecture everybody for ten minutes before everyone has

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Speaker 1: a chance to talk with Guess what you know? People

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Speaker 1: usually don't disagree with the buss once it's talk for

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Speaker 1: ten minutes and so and so you need to have

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Speaker 1: a process and you need to think about the process,

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Speaker 1: so everyone has a voice from other portfolio managers to

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Speaker 1: quant to behavior, finance and be able to kind of

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Speaker 1: combine all of this together to you know, make the

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Speaker 1: best possible portrait, even in the new office outside of

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Speaker 1: the comfort of the West coast. How's that going and

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Speaker 1: how does that attract the kind of talent Ultimately one

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Speaker 1: of attracts at them card. So we thought, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think Dan and I an executive committee, thought that

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Speaker 1: we needed an office to be able to hire talent

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Speaker 1: and technology. And I think it's fair to say than

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Speaker 1: when it comes to hire tech people, we compete against

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Speaker 1: other financial companies, but we also compete against big tech

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Speaker 1: company and also startup And we looked at six different

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Speaker 1: locations and concluded that Austin, given the university, was the

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Speaker 1: best place for us over the next twenty years to

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Speaker 1: hire significant amount of talent and technology. And then we're

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Speaker 1: going to move, you know, some small part of the

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Speaker 1: businesses which makes sense to be in Texas, and so

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Speaker 1: that was quite attractive and we did a quite in

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Speaker 1: depth study and and and and you know, so far

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Speaker 1: we have a better hundred people down there. You've been expanding,

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Speaker 1: you've expanded in some municiples as well. What's left any

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Speaker 1: gaps here at PIMCOW that you're looking to fill and

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Speaker 1: it holds that you'd like to fill out the next

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Speaker 1: coming years. I think the main thing is not so

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Speaker 1: much what you need to feel, is whether you know

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Speaker 1: something about it and how you're going to grow it.

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Speaker 1: And I think we are of the view that we

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Speaker 1: want to grow organically and that from time to time

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Speaker 1: there may be small things we can do and bring

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Speaker 1: to the PIMCO organization, but by large, it's hurrying people,

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Speaker 1: and it's make sure that we understand what we're good

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Speaker 1: at and what we're not good at, and and and

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of introspection which comes into this

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Speaker 1: and making sure that we do that well. And a

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Speaker 1: lot of what we're trying to do is anticipate the

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Speaker 1: next investment opportunity for our clients. So, you know, we

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Speaker 1: talked about credit, credit issuance, development of markets. A lot

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Speaker 1: of that's a credit outside the United States with an

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Speaker 1: emerging markets across Asia. You know, even in pockets of Europe.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of our growth areas are focused on

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Speaker 1: where we anticipate there to be the best return. In

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Speaker 1: this business, you have to start sometimes multiple years before

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Speaker 1: that opportunity actually is out there and ready to be

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Speaker 1: realized upon. So that's one of the key areas of

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Speaker 1: our focus resources with a slight tilt towards credit outside

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Speaker 1: the United States, let's talk about private credit markets. Is

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Speaker 1: that an opportunity money that you'd like to ded what

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Speaker 1: it is? An opportunity and it's something that we've been

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Speaker 1: doing for limited that right, eleven years and it's an

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Speaker 1: opportunity and it's going to become even more attractive when

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Speaker 1: the business cycle turns. How scalable is it, Well, it's

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Speaker 1: never going to be as scalable as what PIMCO does

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Speaker 1: on the liquid side, and you know what, it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: But what we do think is that there are opportunity

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Speaker 1: because of what banks used to do that they don't

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Speaker 1: do anymore, for us to do various things. And it

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Speaker 1: goes from lending against real estate to buying securities in housing,

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Speaker 1: to being able to opportunistically do direct lending, to do

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Speaker 1: various private credit transaction which if managed properly and constructed

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Speaker 1: the right way, should deliver ten to twelve of the

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Speaker 1: business cycle, never fit and and and and that's the

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Speaker 1: opportunity for us and for other people and then big returns.

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Speaker 1: And they key question is other people. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: an incredibly competitive environment right now. And we've talked about

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Speaker 1: areas whether it might be froth. Is that an area

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Speaker 1: down where that might be a better froth? Well, again,

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Speaker 1: you know, consistent with our views are corporate credit on

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Speaker 1: the public side. That's where we see the froth in

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Speaker 1: terms of direct corporate credit issuance. Outside the financial space.

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Speaker 1: We look at areas like commercial real estate, residential real estate,

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Speaker 1: private or public, we continue to see considerable opportunity. That's

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Speaker 1: a sector that, despite the global financial crisis being eleven

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Speaker 1: years past, where we still see frictions and markets where

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Speaker 1: we still see opportunities for investors on the private side

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Speaker 1: as well as the public side. And that's really been

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Speaker 1: our focus for now looking at the harvest opportunities within

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Speaker 1: that space. How important is that alquidity premium so to speak,

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Speaker 1: that you can get out of private credit markets money, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's it's two fold. I think I think we were

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Speaker 1: just written a paper on this. It's probably a couple

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Speaker 1: of percent and and and I'm I'm so over simplifying

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Speaker 1: what the paper is about. But people get compensated for

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Speaker 1: holding eloquent securities and and and there are people who

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Speaker 1: can very easily hold this kind of paper. I think

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Speaker 1: offensition plan for example, who don't need the liquidity you

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Speaker 1: think of insurance company. And so there are people who

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Speaker 1: can own this. And clearly it's one of the most

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Speaker 1: interesting risk preming. But more importantly, it's also a way

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Speaker 1: to structure transaction where you think you have an edge

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Speaker 1: and where you understand an industry better than most. And

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Speaker 1: we're going to find part of what we're currently doing

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Speaker 1: very very attractive and some other things not so attractive.

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Speaker 1: And I think we we're quite cognizant of that. We're

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Speaker 1: recognizing the liquidity is one thing. The liquidity illusion in

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Speaker 1: public markets down is something you've talked about in the past,

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Speaker 1: and I'd like to talk to you about it now.

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Speaker 1: Do you think enough people are focused on that You've

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Speaker 1: talked about financial market vulnerability is the potential for more

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Speaker 1: gaping markets. It's a market that's got bigger participation, arguably

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Speaker 1: is increased over the last several years. And yet fundamentally,

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Speaker 1: just in term sort of structure, it's a market that's

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Speaker 1: got weaker. Just makes sense of that for people, Well,

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Speaker 1: people talk about it, people are aware of the risks.

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Speaker 1: Then you'll have a volatility event like the fourth quarter

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Speaker 1: last year. When you look at returns, it appears that

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Speaker 1: people are more exposed to this. Uh. These less liquid

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Speaker 1: areas of the market then would be suggested from the rhetoric,

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Speaker 1: but we haven't been tested yet. Volatilities have been relatively

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Speaker 1: low the last several years. UM. You just have to

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Speaker 1: take a look and feel the markets from a day

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Speaker 1: to day trading perspective to know that when views shift,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be overshooting. Uh. And we don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: mean that this is going to lead to another financial

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Speaker 1: crisis per se. We do think it's gonna lead a

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Speaker 1: disappointment in the form of overshooting. You'll constantly in and

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Speaker 1: out of the market. What's changed in the last five years?

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Speaker 1: What is it that has changed that you can identify

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Speaker 1: just in terms of being in and out of the market.

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Speaker 1: What's different it's really been the last decade. UM. There's

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Speaker 1: less willingness for market participants to step in and provide

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Speaker 1: a buffer when investor views change. More often than not,

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Speaker 1: in the type of markets we operate in today, it's

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Speaker 1: about lining up a buyron seller on the other side.

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Speaker 1: If that buyer does it happen to be there or

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Speaker 1: seller does it happen to be there, you end up

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Speaker 1: with this overshooting dynamic. So liquidity management from the standpoint

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Speaker 1: of an active asset manager needs to be top of

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Speaker 1: mind today and I think that that's going to be

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Speaker 1: likely one of the route awakenings that we referred to

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Speaker 1: in our in our more recent secular out And I

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Speaker 1: think generational experience also matters, and that's one of the

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Speaker 1: things that we've explored in terms of behavioral finance, the

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Speaker 1: fact that that when you've seen different business cycle you

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Speaker 1: sort of recognize pattern. You know, this looks like nineteen

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Speaker 1: one and this looks like nine, And I think what

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Speaker 1: has changes. You have a whole generation of people who

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Speaker 1: basically sort of greatest boolmarket since two dozand and nine

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Speaker 1: and us keep on going up really steadily for a

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Speaker 1: very very long time. When you have the committe's meetings,

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Speaker 1: do you see the difference in terms of investor buses

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Speaker 1: within PIMCO based on the age, based on the demographics.

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Speaker 1: Is that something you see quite clearly, we noticed differences

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Speaker 1: of you. Now, whether that's I s or perspective is

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Speaker 1: always tough to up front. I think it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of both. From time to time, it is a

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Speaker 1: worry that it's been a long long time since people

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Speaker 1: have gone through a period of heightened volatility or have

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Speaker 1: gone through a credit cycle. And that's why sometimes you know,

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Speaker 1: as an active asset manager, it's best to sit back,

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Speaker 1: be patient and read economic history books as opposed to

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Speaker 1: be on your terminal trading every day. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: gives you Bloomberg come on money one bias and give

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Speaker 1: you one bias one biases. You know, we do like

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Speaker 1: company who eventually makes money. Now, it's okay to lose

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Speaker 1: money for a while. It's even okay to lose money

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Speaker 1: for a long time if you're acquiring a lot of customers.

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Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, we're sort of

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Speaker 1: hoping that there will be an at some point in

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Speaker 1: time and people do make money. So you guys, I

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Speaker 1: think that's that's that's there's a generation of people who

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Speaker 1: clearly think it doesn't matter. Essentially, you guys, then therefore

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Speaker 1: looking to be what you called liquidity providers and not

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Speaker 1: liquidity demanders. There's a period of time that you're waiting

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Speaker 1: for that's building a moment where you want to keep

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Speaker 1: this dry powderforn have senced it all day speaking to you, guys,

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Speaker 1: I mean this could be several years away. Are you

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Speaker 1: willing to sit out the period of excess that could develop?

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Speaker 1: I've prepaired us a couple of years. Then are you

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Speaker 1: willing to want to perform what say some of your

401
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Speaker 1: payers could be delivering in terms of gains by being defensive?

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Speaker 1: The answer is yes. The good news is there's been

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Speaker 1: enough localized volatility dislocation over the last couple of years

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Speaker 1: where you can be defensive, you can be patient, you

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Speaker 1: can be relatively liquid and still generating incremental return. If

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Speaker 1: you get to a point like we were in back

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Speaker 1: in two thousand five or two thousand six, where there's

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Speaker 1: a direct trade off between short term performance UH and

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Speaker 1: being defensive, we absolutely willing to do that. It's absolutely

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Speaker 1: essential as an active manager and perfectly consistent with generating

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Speaker 1: strong returns open It's not just something you're willing to do,

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Speaker 1: it's something you're anticipating happening, isn't it. That's correct? And

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Speaker 1: I think that you know, maybe you see a boxers

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Speaker 1: analogy that this is a counterpunching type market. Um, sit back,

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Speaker 1: be patient, and wait for others in the market to

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Speaker 1: ask for liquidity and then provided, assuming you're getting sufficiently compensated.

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Speaker 1: So it's subtle, but it means be defensive, the patient,

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Speaker 1: be more liquid, look for lots of little trades along

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Speaker 1: the way that hopefully can generate some incremental return, and

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Speaker 1: then strike when you have these bouts of volatility. We

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Speaker 1: haven't had that much of that the last decade, but

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Speaker 1: going forward the next five or ten years, we think

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Speaker 1: it's a type of environment where that style of active

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Speaker 1: management's going to win out in the end. No, I

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Speaker 1: very much agree, and I think I think that we

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Speaker 1: were sort of hoping for more difficult environment and and

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Speaker 1: and once again, whether it happens in six months so

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Speaker 1: in in two years, it's very hard to chord it.

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Speaker 1: But um, but I think we're going the firm for

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Speaker 1: more to mature of this market and and and making

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Speaker 1: sure we have the resources and we have a game bran.

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Speaker 1: And I think having a game bran and sort of

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Speaker 1: thinking about various options and various opportunities is what we

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Speaker 1: get paid to do. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Surveillance Podcast. Subscribe and listen to interview us on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: or whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: Tom Keene before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bloomberg Radio