1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:00,680 Speaker 1: Folks. 2 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 2: Every so often between the episodes we do, between the 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 2: segments we do, will have an interview that just needs 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: to be communicated with the world. And in tonight's classic, 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 2: we're airing an interview segment we had with an absolute legend, 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: a guy named Rob Ballot. Take any stereotypes you've ever 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 2: heard about lawyers and throw them out the third story window. 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: This guy is the real deal. He spoke truth to 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: power and I was surprised by how personable this guy is. 10 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: Oh, for sure, for sure, this is a guy that 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: books have been written about him. You can look up 12 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: The Lawyer who Became DuPont's Worst Nightmare. That is a 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: book by Nathaniel Rich about this gentleman we're talking to. 14 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: You can watch the movie Dark Waters, as we did 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: in preparation for this discussion. This case out in Parker's 16 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: Parkersburg or Parker, Yeah, Parkersburg, West Virginia. That's a small 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: town where this takes place. It's a it's an intense 18 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: story and it's about Forever Chemicals. 19 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 2: Right, It's about it's about DuPont, it's about speaking truth 20 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: to power. As we said, Rob finds a local farmer 21 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: in West Virginia, a guy named Wilburt Tenant who ask 22 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 2: honest questions, why are my livestock dying? Why are authorities 23 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 2: ignoring the points I'm bringing up? And this is something 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: that will continue to be relevant now in twenty twenty 25 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: five as much as it was in twenty nineteen. So 26 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 2: we sat down with Rob and we asked him for 27 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: his first hand experience facing. 28 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 3: Due from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History 29 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now 30 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 3: or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. 31 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. 32 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 33 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 1: name is Noal. 34 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: They call me Ben. 35 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: We are joined as always with our super producer Paul 36 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: Mission Control deck, and most importantly, you are you. You 37 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want 38 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: you to know now, Matt Noel. As we know, we 39 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 2: cover a wide range of topics here on the show, 40 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: and some topics are things that occurred way back in 41 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: the day, in the years of your and some topics 42 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: are things that may occur in the future. And some topics, 43 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: like today's show, are things where we enter into an 44 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 2: ongoing conversation and ongoing debate, and as you know, anytime 45 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: that we are able to do so, we aim to 46 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: go toward our primary sources. 47 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: Right. 48 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: You want firsthand experience, You want people who have had 49 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: their boots on the ground, as it were. And that 50 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: is why today we are immensely fortunate to welcome to 51 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: the show Rob Blot, who is a corporate defense attorney, 52 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: or was for eight years, and took on an environmental 53 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: suit that would ultimately expose a decade long, like multiple 54 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: decades long history of intense chemical pollution. You may be 55 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: familiar with Rob from the headline of a New York 56 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: Times article in twenty sixteen titled the lawyer who became 57 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: DuPont's worst nightmare. Rob, thank you so much for coming 58 00:03:58,880 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: on the show today. 59 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 4: Well, thank you for having me. 60 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: Rob. Let's jump right into this. We got a chance 61 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: to see the movie Dark Waters that is based on 62 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: your experience, and I would say much of that film 63 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: is told through your perspective and really your story, and 64 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: it is largely, at least according to director Todd Haynes, 65 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: based on that New York Times magazine article that we 66 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: mentioned at the top, and the way it gets started. 67 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: The way the movie gets started, it takes us to 68 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. So let's go ahead and just go there. 69 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: What was your position? It's called Taft Law in the movie. 70 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: I believe it has a slightly different name. But what 71 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: was your position there at Taft Law? What kinds of 72 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: clients were you representing? And what kinds of lawsuits were 73 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: you fighting at that time? 74 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, the full name of the law firm, it's the 75 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 4: shorthand is now referred to as Taft Law, but it's 76 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 4: tasted at tinyuson Hollister and I actually started there at 77 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 4: a law school nineteen ninety working in the environmental group 78 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 4: along with folks like Tom Turp, who you also see 79 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 4: in the film. And I was working on environmental matters 80 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 4: for primarily our corporate clients, helping them understand and comply 81 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 4: with the vast array of federal and state environmental rules, statutes, regulations. 82 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 4: And that's primarily what I was doing up until nineteen 83 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 4: ninety eight, right about the time I became a partner 84 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 4: at the law firm, when I received a call from Wilburtennant. 85 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 5: Out of West Virginia and explain to us a little 86 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 5: bit of the contents of that call and the problem that 87 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 5: was sort of posed to you that you were able 88 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 5: to kind of step in to address. 89 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, In nineteen ninety eight, I was contacted by a 90 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 4: gentleman who was starting to describe all kinds of problems 91 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 4: he was having with cows on his property in West Virginia. 92 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 4: And I really wasn't sure why he was content me 93 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 4: what this had to do with anything I was working on. 94 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 4: And then he mentioned the name of my grandmother and 95 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 4: that he had gotten my name through my grandmother, And 96 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 4: so I paid a little more attention at that point 97 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 4: and found out that he apparently owned property that was 98 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 4: right next to land that one of my grandmother's good 99 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 4: friends owned, and they apparently had been talking earlier that 100 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 4: day and mister Tennant was complaining about cow's dying on 101 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 4: his property. Nobody locally there outside of Purpose for West 102 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 4: Virginia would really talk to him. He had tried contacting 103 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 4: the States, the federal EPA folks at the plant and 104 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 4: wasn't getting very far. As was looking for a lawyer 105 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 4: who might be able to help him, And so the 106 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 4: neighbor had just been talking to my grandmother who had 107 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 4: mentioned that I was a environmental lawyer. Up in Cincinnati, 108 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 4: and surely I could help him. So he was calling me, 109 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 4: and so we agreed to you know, once I heard 110 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 4: this from my grandmother, I agreed to sit down and 111 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 4: look at what he had. 112 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: So let's pull back just a little bit here before 113 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: we get to deep into the case itself and what 114 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: you were exploring at the around that time, you know, 115 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight, in the nineties, how would you 116 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: describe DuPont at that time, Like how big of a 117 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: player were they in the chemical industry, what kind of 118 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: products were they producing, and ultimately what was their relationship 119 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: to Parkersburg, West Virginia. 120 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, at that point in time, back in the late nineties, 121 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 4: DuPont was one of the world's largest chemical companies. You know, 122 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 4: had a sterling reputation. They had an immense amount of 123 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 4: scientists within the company that had a good reputation for 124 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 4: scientific work over the years on toxicity of chemicals. I 125 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 4: knew them fairly well. Run across their lawyers over the 126 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 4: years at various super fun cleanup sites where we were 127 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 4: representing our other clients, and DuPont was not one of 128 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 4: our clients, but their attorneys would be in the same 129 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 4: room with US, and we were discussing which companies ought 130 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 4: to be cleaning up various sites across the country. So 131 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 4: we knew them well. They had a good reputation. They 132 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 4: were a very large company, well known in the chemical world, 133 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 4: and they happened to own the world's largest tetlon manufacturing 134 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 4: facility and it was located in Parkersburg, West Virginia, a 135 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 4: long the Ohio River. 136 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: So we were talking about Wilburtenant. He's he's the farmer 137 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: that contenty, the man who owned farmland that contacted you 138 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: and you were talking about that land that was immediately 139 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: adjacent to his. It was something called the dry Run landfill, 140 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: I believe, or at least that's what it's referred to 141 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: in the movie as and what. So you initially sued 142 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: to pont just to find out at least the ways 143 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: depict in the movie, just to find out what was 144 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: inside that landfill that could possibly be contaminating Wilbur's land. Correct, 145 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: that's right. 146 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 4: When we sat down with mister Tennant and looked at 147 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 4: videotapes and photographs that he had, what we found out 148 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 4: was there was a landfill right next to mister Tennant's 149 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 4: property that DuPont was using. It was supposed to be 150 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 4: just routine trash and regular non hazardous waste from the plant, 151 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 4: and we were trying to figure out why the water 152 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 4: coming out of this landfill, the runoffs out of a 153 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 4: landfill had white foam, and it appeared that that foam 154 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 4: was making the cows that were drinking the water sick, 155 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 4: wildlife in the area sick. And so we started digging 156 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 4: into what exactly was going into this landfill because what 157 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 4: we were seeing in the records and the permits for 158 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 4: the landfill from the state weren't weren't revealing any anything 159 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 4: that would explain what was happening to the animals and 160 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 4: what we were seeing with the white foaming water. 161 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: So just let's talk in particular what was occurring to 162 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:23,599 Speaker 1: the cows. So the evidence that mister Tennant brought to 163 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 1: you was a ton of videotapes, right, like a bunch 164 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: of VHS tapes of him documenting his cattle as they 165 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: are dying off, and he's showing that they have appear 166 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: to have enlarged organs and blackened teeth, and he's also 167 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: noticing that some of the rocks within his creek that's 168 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: running on his property are bleached or at least appear 169 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: to be, you know, discolored, discolored. Yeah, So, like, talk 170 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 1: to me about how you felt when you saw that, 171 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: Like what was your reaction to seeing those things and 172 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: did you immediately think there was something really really bad 173 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: going on there. 174 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. Mister tim had been ticking videotape of what he 175 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 4: was seeing on his property and in the creek for years. 176 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 4: He had started seeing problems in the mid to late nineties, 177 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 4: around nineteen ninety five or so, and had been trying 178 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 4: to get somebody to pay attention, and so he figured 179 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 4: he'd start videotaping it and so at least people could 180 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 4: see what he was talking about. And so he brought 181 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 4: these tapes up to us, and as you indicated, I mean, 182 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 4: it was pretty powerful video. It showed animals that were 183 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 4: wasting away, you know, just we're skin and bones, that 184 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 4: had tumors, that had blackened teeth, their eyes were sunken 185 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 4: back in their head or just colored. There were other 186 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 4: wildlife in the area, you know, fish and frogs and 187 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 4: deer that seemed to be suffering as well. And there 188 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 4: were actually portions of those tapes or mister Tennant was 189 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 4: cutting into the animals that had died to try to 190 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 4: find out what had happened. Did you see misshape and 191 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 4: miscolored organs and tumors and blackened teeth in these animals? 192 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 4: So it was pretty powerful when we looked at that 193 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 4: videotape and you can see these animals standing in water 194 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 4: with white foam, that something clearly was wrong, something was 195 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 4: very wrong there. So we figured, yes, we would try 196 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 4: to help. 197 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: So this is the pivotal moment right where you decide that, yes, 198 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: we will take this case. For anyone who's unfamiliar with 199 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: the way these sorts of investigations involved, like how they 200 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 2: evolve over time, what were the next early steps, like 201 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: as soon as as soon as you decide we will 202 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 2: take on this matter. What is the first the first 203 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: iteration of the investigation? Do we identify the foam? Do 204 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 2: we take samples? How does it work? 205 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 4: Well? You know, the first things I did was try 206 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 4: to go to the state agency that was regulating that 207 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 4: landfill that has given the company a permit and pull 208 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 4: the permits and find out what types of materials are 209 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 4: being disposed there, What are they monitoring for in the water? 210 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 4: You know, are we seeing detections of those chemicals above 211 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 4: the limits that the state has set. You know, in 212 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 4: my world up to that point that I've been dealing 213 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 4: with all these different federal state laws, you know, my 214 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 4: understanding was if there were toxic or hazardous materials of concern, 215 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 4: those are the ones that would be listed in the permits, 216 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 4: or those would be the ones that you would have 217 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 4: to be monitoring for. So I thought this would be 218 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 4: a fairly straightforward thing that we could pull these permits, 219 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 4: pull the records for this landfill, and surely there must 220 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 4: be something that was out of black, you know, something 221 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 4: that was being emitted and way too high of concentration, 222 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 4: you know, and that we would be able to find 223 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 4: that through going through these government permits. And that's what 224 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 4: we focused on with DuPont initially as well, was their 225 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 4: records relating to what was permitted, what was regulated at 226 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 4: that landfille, and we simply didn't see anything that was 227 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 4: explaining what we were seeing through those permit records. 228 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 5: I'm fascinated by this whole concept of allowable limits of 229 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 5: toxins and the process of you know, how the EPA 230 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 5: decides what is it is not acceptable in terms of 231 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 5: you know, impurities in or in contaminations and environments and 232 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 5: drinking water, et cetera. Is that like, can you speak 233 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 5: to that a little bit, to someone with your expertise 234 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 5: as to what that process is like and why we 235 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 5: sometimes see you know, rollbacks of EPA standards for example, 236 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 5: that oh no, actually, wait, we don't need to be 237 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 5: this rigorous, we're over overdoing it, you know, or re 238 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 5: examining something like this where maybe it goes in the 239 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 5: opposite direction. 240 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's an extremely complex process. You know, 241 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 4: we're talking about a regulatory system that really, if you 242 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 4: look at the grand scheme of events here, hasn't been 243 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 4: around all that long. You know, the US EPA didn't 244 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 4: even come into existence until nineteen seventy in some of 245 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 4: the first laws at the federal level regulating chemicals going 246 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 4: out into the market and how you test them and 247 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 4: how you assess their safety really didn't come out until 248 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy six. And you know, it's a fairly limited 249 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 4: group of chemicals that have actually been assessed and have 250 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 4: been deemed worthy to be regulated at a federal level 251 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 4: or state level. And you know, with standards being set 252 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 4: under different federal laws and regulations, and really what we 253 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 4: came to find a help through this case, you know, 254 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 4: was there's much larger world of unregulated chemicals. Chemicals that 255 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 4: have escaped that process. Either they were already out in 256 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 4: our world, in our environment decades before these new federal 257 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 4: laws came into play, before the EPA even existed, or 258 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 4: somehow they skated through or bypassed the system altogether. 259 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 5: And we're going to talk more about this topic after 260 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 5: a quick word from our sponsor. 261 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: And we're back. So at this point, we see, of course, 262 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: the what many people would think of as the looming 263 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: shadow of the gigantic company DuPont, and the firm has 264 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 2: done some I believe the firm has in its past 265 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 2: done some corporate work on the plaintiff side. What was 266 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: the prospect, like, what was the conversation like on your 267 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 2: side when you when you had to choose shall we 268 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: take on DuPont? Shall we take on this enormous corporate entity. 269 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 2: Was there any hesitation, any any sense of that that 270 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 2: this could endanger your livelihood or anything like that. 271 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 4: Well, I think that that was a conversation that's definitely 272 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 4: evolved over time. You know, when when mister Tennant first 273 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 4: came to US, and we were first looking into this issue, 274 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 4: you know, we assumed this would be something that would 275 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 4: be rather straightforward. You know, it's it was a regulated, 276 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 4: permitted landfill, something that was being controlled by the state 277 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 4: of West Virginia. We thought we would be able to 278 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 4: to find out what what you know, hazardous materials we're 279 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 4: in that landfill and assume that we could get to 280 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 4: the bottom of it relatively quickly. We had no idea 281 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 4: at the time that this was going to evolve some 282 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 4: unregulated mystery chemical. But even even in those initial stages 283 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 4: where we were talking with mister Tennant and trying to 284 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 4: decide whether to take the case and actually sue dupot, 285 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 4: you know, it was clear mister Tenant in his family 286 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 4: probably were not going to be able to, you know, 287 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 4: afford the kind of rates we typically charged our corporate clients. 288 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 4: So that was one of the first times we ever 289 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 4: took on a case on what they call contingency, you know, 290 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 4: where the client only pays at the end, uh if 291 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 4: there's actually a recovery. But again, we thought it was 292 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 4: a fairly straightforward We hoped it would be a rather 293 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 4: straightforward case. It wasn't until you know, it was getting 294 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,719 Speaker 4: into the discovery and getting into the documents that we 295 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 4: realized we were dealing with a much much bigger issue, 296 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 4: one that went way beyond just this farmer's family and 297 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 4: his property, but what something that was impacting the entire 298 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 4: community and eventually realized entire country, if not the entire world, 299 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 4: it's going to be a much bigger undertaking. 300 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: And in the movie at least it's it's depicted as 301 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: when you stumble upon something within the discovery all these documents, 302 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: something that is referred to as PFOA or PFOA related 303 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: with regards to the driver R and landfill. Can you 304 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: just talk about that, like what that was, what your 305 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: journey was to figuring out what the heck that substance was, 306 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: because there wasn't nobody actually had anything written down in 307 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: these documents about what it was, and you didn't really 308 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: learn about it until you were at the at least 309 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: it appears like you were at that Chemical Alliance dinner 310 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: where you saw the reaction to pfoas. So let's just 311 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: talk about how you found it, what it is, and 312 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: that Chemical Alliance dinner. 313 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 4: Well. I I have also recently published a book called Exposure, 314 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 4: which I try to go into more detail about the 315 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 4: discovery of this chemical and how it was we came 316 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 4: to find out it even existed in what documents we 317 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 4: saw this in and how I really started to understand 318 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 4: what was going on here was a pretty complicated process, 319 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 4: But what I can tell you is we were, you know, 320 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 4: getting nowhere really with focusing on the regulated listed materials 321 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 4: in this landfill and their permits. So I got to 322 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 4: the point where I finally decided I would ask to 323 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 4: POD for all of their records relating to anything that 324 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 4: was going to this landfill from the plant, and we 325 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 4: met with great pushback from the company at that point, 326 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 4: now you need to keep focused on these hazardous listed materials, 327 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 4: and we had to go to court and we eventually 328 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 4: got a court order that required the company to start 329 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,959 Speaker 4: turning over this broader group of documents, and it was 330 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 4: pouring through all of those materials, and it was a 331 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 4: lot that I stumbled upon a document one day that 332 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 4: mentioned this chemical referred to as a p f O 333 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 4: or p f O a UH, and I tried to 334 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 4: find out what was this because it was indicating that 335 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 4: there was a lot of that material that had been 336 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 4: used at the plant and that it had been some 337 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 4: of that waste had been sent to this landfill. Uh, 338 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 4: So it was finding that reference really changed everything. I 339 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 4: tried to find information, you know, that was available publicly 340 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 4: online or in our library and really couldn't find much 341 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 4: of anything about this chemical. I wasn't even sure it 342 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 4: was a chemical at that point. So that really launched 343 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 4: us down a whole new road. And really, you know, 344 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 4: it's something I have been had to focus on for 345 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 4: the next several years, is finding out what is this 346 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 4: stuff and why is so much of it being used 347 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 4: at that plan, and why did it why did the 348 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 4: waste end up at this landfill? What does it do 349 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 4: to the cows that are drinking people? 350 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 2: And the fall or autumn of two thousand you had 351 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: to You took them to court. You took DuPont to 352 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: court to comply with that request that they share all 353 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 2: documentation related to PFOA, and that this feels like the 354 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 2: watershed moment because you find that not only is there, 355 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: not only is their correspondence internally or documentation eternally onto 356 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 2: Pont's side, but it is robust, I believe, more than 357 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 2: one hundred and ten thousand pages. And the thing that 358 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 2: was scary to me is that some of this paperwork 359 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 2: is uh, what' fifty years old at that point. What 360 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: did you do when you got this? This just mass 361 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: info dump of all these different things from it feels 362 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 2: like they're from different sources, right, medical reports. 363 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: Just like thousands of boxes, right? 364 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, what how did you how did you begin to 365 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: digest that? 366 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 4: Well? As you indicated, I mean, that process really began 367 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 4: after we were able to get the courts, you know, 368 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 4: to order the company to start turning over its internal 369 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 4: files about this material, and it eventually ended up being 370 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 4: millions of pages of documents. And those were the days 371 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 4: really before things were produced on electronic discs or thumb drives, 372 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 4: So we were getting physical, hard copy paper, which frankly 373 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 4: I think ended up being a blessing in the end, 374 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 4: because we didn't necessarily know exactly what terms, you know, 375 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 4: we were looking for, how it do not refer to 376 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 4: this chemical. In fact, we eventually learned they were referring 377 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 4: to it a four or five different ways that we 378 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 4: wouldn't have even known to ask for documents about FC 379 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 4: one three or C eight. You know. It only was 380 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 4: going through all those documents that we were able to 381 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 4: piece that together that that took many years sitting through, 382 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 4: you know, I physically printed these things out or organized 383 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 4: all those hard copies, read through every page and trying 384 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 4: to put together, put it in chronological order, and try 385 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 4: to piece together the history of what happened here. And 386 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 4: as you indicate it, we saw documents going back to 387 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties. The company started purchasing this material in 388 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 4: nineteen fifty one from the three M Company, and had 389 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 4: started extensive toxicology studies on it in the sixties, and 390 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 4: human studies in the seventies, and cancer studies in the eighties. 391 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 4: So there was a wealth of information, and the most 392 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 4: disturbing aspect of it was realizing there was a lot 393 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 4: known about the toxicity of the chemical. Not only was 394 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,959 Speaker 4: it in the waste that had been sent to this 395 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 4: landfill and that the cows were drinking, but it had 396 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 4: been found in the drinking water of the community in 397 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 4: the eighties, and nobody else outside the company. He seemed 398 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 4: to be aware of this. It did not look like 399 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 4: the community had been told, did not look like the 400 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 4: regulators were aware. In fact, they're even draft standby press 401 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 4: releases in case somebody found out that apparently never went out. 402 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 4: So it was very disturbing information and realized we were 403 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 4: dealing with what we've realized was a public health threat 404 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 4: that had gone unnoticed. 405 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 5: I don't want to come off to naive here, but 406 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 5: I mean the implication as this went to the very 407 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 5: top of this company in terms of covering up these 408 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 5: studies and just absolute brazen disregard for people's safety. 409 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 4: We're talking about information that was definitely within the corporate files, 410 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 4: within the scientific files, within the lawyers were aware of it. 411 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 4: The lawyers were even advising the client that this was 412 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 4: a problem going back to years. And you know, there's 413 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 4: a point where I eventually even sat down with the 414 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 4: CEO of the company and showed him all of these 415 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 4: internal documents after he was standing up and publicly saying 416 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 4: that there was no information suggesting there were any health issues. 417 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 4: So I sat down with him and went through all 418 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 4: of those internal documents that showed just the opposite. So 419 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 4: it was there was a wealth of information within the 420 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 4: company's own files. 421 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 2: And this is this is something that we want to 422 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 2: want to emphasize. Is it true that when you were 423 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 2: when you were looking through all this extensive uh documentation 424 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: that literally no one else outside DuPont had ever seen before. 425 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 2: Is it true that you found they were contradicting their 426 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: own recommendations about how to handle PFOA. 427 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 4: You know, there were internal recommendations and you know, discussion 428 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 4: about whether to switch frankly, away from the chemical to 429 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 4: a different one in order to avoid some of the 430 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 4: problems they were seeing with PFOA. And then these discussions 431 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 4: went back into the eighties and there were recommendations from 432 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 4: three M, the company that was making the PFOA and 433 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,479 Speaker 4: sending it to Dupot since nineteen fifty one. You know, 434 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 4: the three M was recommending that it not be put 435 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 4: into waterways, you know, that it should be incinerated, and 436 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 4: unfortunately DuPont was not solving those recommendations. 437 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: Just going to take a quick break here and hear 438 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, and we're back talking about 439 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: dark Waters and Rob a Lot's experience. Okay, so we're 440 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: really starting to get into the direness of this story 441 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: and the effects of what was going on there. Let's 442 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: jump to I want to kind of focus in on 443 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: the individuals, the people in the community who are working, 444 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: you know, in these facilities where they're actually creating the chemicals. 445 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,959 Speaker 1: And then the people living that are drinking that water. 446 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: And you know, in the movie, it's just kind of 447 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: a known thing that if you go and you work 448 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: at the chemical plant, your life is going to be shortened. 449 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: It's just something that people in the community would talk 450 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: about in that it's a known thing. You're going to 451 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: make a good living for a fairly shortened amount of time. 452 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: And it was almost as if it's a trade off 453 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: and a known thing, at least as depicted in the movie. 454 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: And I had a conversation with some of my family 455 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: from Ohio and like the Akron area, Chigo Falls that area, 456 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: and there it was just even and within my relatives 457 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: it was a known thing that if you go and 458 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: you work at a chemical company, you're basically risking your 459 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: life to get a good, stable job. Is that we 460 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: found in Parker's Burg And what were what were the 461 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: effects on the people working in these plants. 462 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 4: I think as you see in the film Dark Waters, 463 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 4: you know that there was definitely pushback within the community 464 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 4: when the lawsuits began. Uh you know, this was one 465 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 4: of the major employers in town. It had been a 466 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 4: contributor and uh you know, had provided funding for a 467 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 4: lot of the local organizations. So there were a lot 468 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 4: of folks that we were not happy with the idea, 469 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 4: you know, that that there was litigation being brought against 470 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 4: you know, this this this employer in the community, and 471 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 4: there was there was pushback you know, from the against 472 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 4: the folks that were speaking out, and you know, even 473 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 4: among the employees, you know, there were folks that were 474 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 4: that we were definitely becoming thick. In fact, in the 475 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 4: book we discussed one of the former employees u you know, 476 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 4: who used to work at the lab, who you know, 477 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 4: for for decades was working with these chemicals who developed 478 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 4: ulst of colitis and just the severe personal impact you know, 479 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 4: that that has on folks like that, you know. And 480 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 4: I think that's one of the great things about the 481 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 4: film Dark Waters is that it really gives you a 482 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 4: good insight into how something like this really impacts the 483 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 4: real people in the community that are dealing with it 484 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 4: on a day to day basis. You know, we're talking 485 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 4: about something that was dragging on for years and years. 486 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 4: In the meantime, real people are living there, you know, 487 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 4: real people are drinking this, and real people are getting 488 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 4: sick and dying, and I think, you know, it's something 489 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 4: I think it was powerful. It's powerful to see what 490 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 4: that really does to folks. 491 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: I tremendously appreciate that point. I think we all do, 492 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 2: because one thing the film does a fantastic job of 493 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:04,479 Speaker 2: depicting is is the human costs, the very real human 494 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 2: costs of this sort of contamination and pollution and cover 495 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 2: up with You know, it could be so easy for us, 496 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 2: you know, just as people everyday people to see a 497 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 2: headline on the news or to hear a statistic and 498 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 2: for us to relegate that to the realm of abstraction. 499 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 2: We can also tell that this had a clear dare 500 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 2: I say, personal impact on you, specifically as as an 501 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: individual and as an attorney, because while this is moving 502 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 2: through court, while you're aggregating this evidence, while you're finding 503 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: this documentation, eventually, if we just if we jump to 504 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 2: two thousand again, eventually you call the attorney on DuPont's 505 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: side and you have this conversation that results in the 506 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 2: tenants settling their case. And as as we as noted, right, 507 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 2: there's there's this one moment where it could have stopped. 508 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 2: There as that one single case, right, and the firm 509 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 2: gets as as you had indicated earlier, it's contingency fee. 510 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 2: But that's not where it stops, because you make the 511 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 2: decision to continue unraveling this strange web. Could could you 512 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about what compelled you or 513 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 2: what propelled you forward after the settlement. 514 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, by the time I had that conversation 515 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 4: that we were able to resolve the case for mister 516 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 4: Tennant and his family, you know, we had I'll say, 517 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 4: I had been looking through enough of the documentation at 518 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 4: that point realized this went far beyond mister Tennant's property. 519 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 4: And you know, mister Tenant, even in his family, were 520 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 4: extremely concerned about their community and their neighbors who you know, 521 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 4: were drinking this and had no idea. You know, we 522 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 4: had found out, you know, by looking at these documents 523 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 4: that this was not just on their property, not just 524 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 4: in the landfill, but was in the local drinking water 525 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 4: and nobody was being told. So you know, he was 526 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 4: very passionate about finding a way that we could get 527 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 4: this information out to the broader community, and that that 528 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 4: really bothered me as well, knowing that, you know, I 529 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 4: may be one of the only people had seen this information, 530 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 4: was aware of this public health threat, and nobody else 531 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 4: seemed to know it. So I did make the decision 532 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 4: to sit down and put all that information, at least 533 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 4: most of what I could find, into a letter that 534 00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 4: I sent to the U s e. P A and 535 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 4: various different governmental agencies back on March sixth, two thousand 536 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 4: and one, where I hoped by laying out what I 537 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 4: had been seeing in these documents, these agencies would see 538 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 4: the same thing and realized there was a public health 539 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 4: threat here. People were drinking this material. This was out 540 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 4: there in the environment. You know. The agencies really hadn't 541 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 4: been given this information, and they would come in and 542 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 4: stop it and take action to clean it up, get 543 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 4: the water filtered, and regulate it, you know. And I, 544 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 4: looking back, realized how naive I was to think that 545 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 4: the government agencies would actually swoop in and do something. 546 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 4: But to me, that was a critical step. We needed 547 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 4: to alert these agencies and the public to this public 548 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 4: health threat. And that happened, and Duplant actually went to 549 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 4: court to truck get a gag order to stop us 550 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 4: and talking about it, and luckily the court rejected that 551 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 4: and I was allowed to go and provide the information 552 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 4: to the EPA, and eventually, you know, EPA started digging 553 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 4: through it and realized this information had been withheld, sued 554 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 4: DuPont and one of the few times that's ever happened, 555 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 4: or suing a company for withholding information like this from 556 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,479 Speaker 4: the agency, and that began the process of looking into 557 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 4: these chemicals and starting to regulate them where we unfortunately 558 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 4: that process is still grinding on some eighteen years later. 559 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: And you said chemicals there, right, because for a lot 560 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: of this and a lot of people maybe think tefline, 561 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: this one product, this one singular thing is the issue. 562 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: The carbon is a repeating carbon chain. I believe that's 563 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: how it's referred to. It's this one thing, But no, no, 564 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: it's it's numerous chemicals that are very similar to this one. 565 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 4: Right. Well, the chemical that we were focused on in 566 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 4: particular was one of these chemicals called PFOA, and it 567 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 4: is one of a large group of chemicals that we 568 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 4: now know as p FOSS. P f A s a 569 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 4: group of man made chemicals that were invented right after 570 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 4: World War Two, primarily by three M. You know, there 571 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 4: these man made carbon and flooring combination chemicals that share 572 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 4: similar characteristics and at the time we were focused on 573 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 4: one of them, PFOA. But what we've now come to 574 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 4: know is that there's a large number of these out there, 575 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 4: and they're being found also in drinking water across the country, 576 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 4: and in all of our blood and in the environment. 577 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about what that means for us. There, 578 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: the three of us sitting in this room talking to you, 579 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: are our super producer Paul out there in the booth. 580 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 1: We all grew up with with my parents and I 581 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: making omelets in our you know, our saucepans that had 582 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: were covered with teflon, and we do I'd use a 583 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: fork to make my omelet, and I know for a 584 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: fact that I've ingested that stuff in that way, outside 585 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: of the drinking water, outside of all you know, all 586 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: the other ways are being contaminated. Like what what does 587 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: that big what does the big picture really look like 588 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: for for all of humanity, for all of organic life. 589 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 4: Well, you know, that's the thing that's really very disturbing 590 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 4: about this whole story is we're talking about contamination on 591 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 4: a global scale that I'm not sure we've seen before. 592 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 4: Where you know, this this this chemical and this family 593 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 4: of chemicals, the pithos chemicals, have been used in an 594 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 4: enormous variety and array of different products over the decades, 595 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 4: where you know, not just nonstick cookwar but fast food wrappings, 596 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 4: stained resistant carpeting, clothing, UH wire cabling, firefighting foams, microwave, popcorn, 597 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 4: bag coatings, I mean, you name it. And so these 598 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 4: chemicals have been used in such a vast array of 599 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 4: products that it's out there and not only in our water, 600 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 4: but it's gotten into soils, it's gotten into food. It's unfortunately, 601 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 4: these chemicals have a great ability to stay out in 602 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 4: the environment. Once they're out there, they have a great 603 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 4: inability to be broken down by natural conditions, so you 604 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 4: hear them now referred to as forever chemicals. PFOA for example, 605 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 4: it just really doesn't break down under natural conditions and 606 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 4: would be there for millions of years. So pretty much 607 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 4: everything that's been pumped out in the last sixty seventy 608 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 4: years is still there in our soil and our water 609 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 4: and now getting into us. And not only does the 610 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 4: stuff get out and stay in the environment, it has 611 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 4: the unique ability to get into living things where it 612 00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 4: tends to stick into the blood. PFOA for example, into 613 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 4: our blood, and even the tiniest amounts will build up 614 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 4: over time, so it's persistent and bioaccumulative, and now we 615 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 4: also know toxic. So you know, these these chemicals, in 616 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 4: their their great persistence, their ability to be basically contaminating 617 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 4: the whole planet and people on the planet, are presenting 618 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,959 Speaker 4: really tremendous challenges and concerns to the scientific community right now, 619 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,439 Speaker 4: particularly as we just now start sampling and finding out 620 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 4: exactly where this stuff is. It's been being pumped out 621 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 4: there for decades, but we're only just now really starting 622 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 4: to sample and find it and really realize the extent 623 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 4: of exntamination. 624 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 5: And I certainly see and share your concern about the 625 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 5: big picture of contamination issues involved here. But to Matt's question, 626 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 5: you know, you know, your story involves high levels of 627 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 5: contamination literally being pumped into water supplies and environments, the 628 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 5: whole flaking off of teflong with a fork. Well, you know, 629 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 5: over time that would necessarily be something as much to 630 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 5: worry about as the big picture of things that you're addressing. 631 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 5: Or maybe I'm wrong, I just wanted to put that 632 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 5: to you. 633 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 4: Well, but drinking these chemicals you know, in the water 634 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,879 Speaker 4: has certainly been recognized by the scientific world is one 635 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 4: of the primary sources of getting exposed. I mean, if 636 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 4: you're living in a community where these chemicals are in 637 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 4: your drinking water, that's going to be one of your 638 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 4: primary ways of getting it into your body. These other 639 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 4: exposures are probably going to be less significant, but they'll 640 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 4: still you know, manage to get into you somehow. But really, 641 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 4: you know, if you're in an area where it's made 642 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 4: it into the water, that's really a prime concern to 643 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,880 Speaker 4: stop that exposures. That's a direct exposure into the body. 644 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 2: And I believe one thing that if there's one takeaway 645 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 2: that everyone listening to today's episode needs to carry with 646 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 2: them after the audio has stopped playing, it's this we're 647 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 2: talking about the genesis of an investigation that expands, you know, 648 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,280 Speaker 2: to these vast parameters. But we're not really talking about 649 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 2: something that happened in the past. We're not only talking 650 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 2: about that because as as you establish, Rob, this is 651 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 2: this is going on, These chemicals, these substances are still 652 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 2: out there in multitudes of different let's sae, multitudes of 653 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 2: different applications, multitudes of different illicit distributions. Right whether in 654 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 2: drinking water or in DuPonts so called digestion ponds. We 655 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 2: now are looking toward the future, and I'd love to 656 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 2: hear your perspective on what the future of PFOA and 657 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 2: these related contaminants may actually be. What, because you know 658 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 2: that directly translates to the health of the public and 659 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 2: the health of livestock and even perhaps not to be 660 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 2: alarmist about it, the health of generations to come. Could 661 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 2: you speak with us a little bit about what you 662 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 2: see in the near to mid future as the state 663 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 2: of America's health as it applies to these substances, or 664 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 2: any action, whether environmental recovery actions or whether legal actions 665 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 2: that might mitigate potential future harm. 666 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, as the information finally started coming out 667 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:39,280 Speaker 4: about these chemicals, actually three m back in two thousand 668 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 4: announced that it was going to stop making PFOA and 669 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 4: the related one PFOS that was used in Scotch Guard 670 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,479 Speaker 4: and firefighting films. So they very quickly announced they would 671 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 4: stop making two of these Dupon unfortunately then jumped in 672 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 4: at that point and started making and continued to make PFOA. 673 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 4: You know, as more of this information came out to 674 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 4: our litigation and the EPA got more involved in more 675 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 4: concerns to PONT and the other companies that we're still 676 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 4: using and making PFOA at the time announced in two 677 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,399 Speaker 4: thousand and six that they would stop making PFOA and 678 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 4: phased it out over the next ten years by twenty fifteen. 679 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 4: During that period of time, companies have brought out what 680 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 4: they referred to as alternatives or safer replacements for these 681 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,720 Speaker 4: longer chain C eights, ones that have eight carbons, things 682 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 4: like sixes C fours, and the hopes that they're less persistent, 683 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:42,760 Speaker 4: less bioaccumulative, and unfortunately, the data that's coming out suggests 684 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,240 Speaker 4: they might share very similar toxicities and hopefully won't last 685 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 4: in the environment though as long. And I think what 686 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 4: we're seeing is as this data is coming out about 687 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,280 Speaker 4: this broader class of chemicals and more testing is occurring, 688 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 4: people are finally becoming aware that these chemicals even exist 689 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 4: and what their exposures have been or might be. And 690 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 4: you know, that's one of the things I'm very encouraged 691 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 4: about with the release of Dark Waters in the book, 692 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 4: is that that information will now be out to a 693 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 4: wider group of people who will now understand that they've 694 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 4: been exposed at least have the tools to start beginning 695 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:24,319 Speaker 4: to avoid those exposures hopefully going forward at least be 696 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 4: aware of what kind of products and where in the 697 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 4: environment these chemicals might be, so that they can choose 698 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,839 Speaker 4: to avoid it if they want. And we are now 699 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 4: finally seeing regulatory authorities start to finally take action. It's 700 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 4: taken a long time. The US EPA still has not 701 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 4: regulated these chemicals on a federal level, but the states 702 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 4: are moving forward setting drinking water guidelines on their own 703 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 4: in order to protect people. So we're seeing action begin, 704 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 4: and I think we're seeing increased awareness so that people 705 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 4: can take steps to protect themselves, and hopefully we'll also 706 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 4: see technologies being developed to help us get these things 707 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 4: out of our environment and hopefully find ways to make 708 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 4: sure that our exposures are minimized going forward. 709 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having something positive to talk 710 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:24,359 Speaker 1: about in this story, Rob because, uh man, it's it's 711 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: we get into very dark waters here when we're when 712 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: we're doing this. Sorry, I just have one in there, 713 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: No for real, it's it's it's this movie and this 714 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: story and your experience. It's it's very intense and at 715 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,720 Speaker 1: times it can be disheartening at very many weeks. 716 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, for sure, it really points to a 717 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,800 Speaker 5: real lack of humanity on the parts of folks that 718 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 5: can really that that are the ones who are most 719 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 5: empowered to really make a difference and just choose not to, 720 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 5: it would seem I believe. 721 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,320 Speaker 2: The euphemism is self regulation. 722 00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: Well yes, so, so I don't want to spoil the 723 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 1: the ending of the movie. If you've read the article, 724 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: you know how it turns out for the people of 725 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: Parkersburg and a lot of the other people affected. But 726 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: I just really quickly, for my money, the biggest the 727 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: biggest issue is the self regulation of these chemical companies 728 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:19,799 Speaker 1: with their proprietary chemicals. And the problem is that the 729 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,200 Speaker 1: EPA and all these regulatory bodies won't know what chemicals 730 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: to regulate if the chemical company doesn't come forward and 731 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: give them those guidelines. At least that's the way it 732 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: was when these lawsuits began. Have you seen any change 733 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: in that respect or is it still kind of the 734 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: way it was? 735 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean for existing chemicals like this, chemicals that 736 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 4: were out there before a lot of these rules and 737 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:52,760 Speaker 4: laws came into play. In fact, this situation was cited 738 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:58,320 Speaker 4: as an example of why those laws needed to be changed. 739 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 4: In fact, in twenty sixteen, the federal law regulating chemicals 740 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,839 Speaker 4: coming out of the market was beefed up in order 741 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 4: to try to address that very issue. I think it 742 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 4: remains to be seen how effective you know, that's going 743 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 4: to be going forward, But to me, it's encouraging. What's 744 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 4: really encouraging is to see this information come out, and 745 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 4: because I think once you give people the facts and 746 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 4: this information, you know, even if it's going to take 747 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,640 Speaker 4: a while for these things to grind through the regulatory 748 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 4: system or the political system, people on an individual basis, 749 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,319 Speaker 4: once they know the information, they can at least take 750 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 4: steps to protect themselves. And I think that's something you 751 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 4: see in the movie as well. It's just the power 752 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 4: of information in individuals to stand up and do things 753 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:51,799 Speaker 4: to protect themselves in their communities. 754 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:58,280 Speaker 2: Well said, and we completely agree. We've seen Dark Waters 755 00:47:58,280 --> 00:47:59,160 Speaker 2: for ourselves. 756 00:47:59,560 --> 00:47:59,840 Speaker 1: Freedom. 757 00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:03,880 Speaker 2: What listening? If you would like more information, because information 758 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 2: is power and in this case it's also self empowerment. 759 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 2: If you would like to learn more about this again 760 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,759 Speaker 2: ongoing story, then check out the film Dark Waters. Additionally, 761 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,799 Speaker 2: find Exposure, which is Rob Bolott's book coming out via 762 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 2: Simon and Schuster. 763 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, Rob, thank you so much. Is there anything else 764 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,359 Speaker 1: you want to leave us with. 765 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,960 Speaker 4: No and I really appreciate the opportunity. Again. You know, 766 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:38,880 Speaker 4: anything like this that helps people understand what has actually happened, 767 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,520 Speaker 4: What is happening, believe it or not, in the United 768 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 4: States in today's world is as you indicated, not something 769 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,760 Speaker 4: that happens, you know, back in the nineteen tens or twenties. 770 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,080 Speaker 4: This is modern day United States and for people to 771 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,960 Speaker 4: understand this is what's happening, and here are the things 772 00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,400 Speaker 4: we need to do that hopefully will make things better. 773 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,439 Speaker 2: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't 774 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:08,279 Speaker 2: wait to hear your thoughts. 775 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:09,680 Speaker 5: It's right let us know what you think. You can 776 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,279 Speaker 5: reach to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on 777 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 5: Facebook x and YouTube on Instagram and TikTok work Conspiracy 778 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:17,239 Speaker 5: Stuff Show. 779 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: If you want to call us dial one eight three 780 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,800 Speaker 1: three STDWYTK that's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes, 781 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if 782 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: we can use your name and message on the air. 783 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: If you got more to say than can fit in 784 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,839 Speaker 1: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old 785 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:34,640 Speaker 1: fashioned email. 786 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 5: We are the. 787 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 2: Entities to read every single piece of correspondence we receive, 788 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 2: be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the void writes back 789 00:49:43,360 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 2: conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 790 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production 791 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 792 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.