WEBVTT - Jann Wenner and Rolling Stone: a Legacy Built on Solid Rock 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:05.320 I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing. 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:10.440 In nineteen sixty six, Yon Winner, suburban Jewish son of 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:16.640 a businessman, dropped out of Berkeley. Neither a rebel nor 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.040 a flower child, he was drawn to rock the music 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:24.959 of generational grievance. Winner would become the baby boomers go 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.480 to analyst of that music and the culture that produced it. 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:33.239 He just needed his mouthpiece. A year after leaving college, 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.840 from a small apartment on San Francisco's Petrero Hill, Winner 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.800 decided to found a magazine. I borrowed money from my 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:46.400 mother in law, my stepmother, and scraped together and we 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.600 just sort of got some free office space in the 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:53.480 printer in San Francisco and had no expenses, no salaries, nothing, 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.160 just kind of hand him out for a while, and 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.960 you published how What What? We had enough money to 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.200 pay the printer's bill, and since it was printed on 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.520 twenty four pages a really cheap newsprint, the bill was 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.200 relatively low. So you have something that resembles what Now 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:09.240 What did Rolling Stone then look like? It looks like 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.240 it looks like a tabloid size, you know, like a 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.199 village voice size, with paper paper and with a front 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.200 page rather than a cover, which was a later kind 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:20.400 of thing that we put on. And uh, it was 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.520 twenty four pages and we sat up in the corners 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.680 Our price is Cheap, which I took from Mad magazine. Um, 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:30.720 and what change? How does it start to build? What 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:32.800 do you attribute that too? Well? I think that it 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.200 started to build because of the editorial excellence. Because in 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:37.920 n seven the leading edge of the baby boom was 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:42.319 just during the Beatles were still in their mop pop face. 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:44.280 Dylan was doing Highway sixty month, so rock and roll 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.840 wasn't covered in the newspapers or television. In the movie, 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.919 it was nowhere else except on the jukeboxes on the radio. 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.720 It started to build because we started to do articles 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.880 about music that musicians and serious music fans we're recognizing 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.320 as being really important stuff. Stuff they want to know 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.520 from musicians about how they created their music, what they 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.480 were trying to say, and other kinds of stories about 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.120 cultural issues that people recognize as being really good. I mean, 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.799 within our first year, we had presented a two part 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.560 interview with Pete Townsend, a big long interview that I 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.840 had done with him in which he articulated Tommy for 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.080 the first time we had Mick Jagger on the cover 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:22.840 and now reminding you with this tiny little thing in 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.280 San Francisco. And for our first anniversary issue, John and 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.240 Yoko gave us the naked picture of themselves that was 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:33.840 banned on their Two Versions album. How do you get 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.920 them to do that? They liked the magazine, They saw 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.480 what we were doing. They liked it. They didn't. I 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.920 didn't know any of them, you know, I, you know, 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.240 you kind of met no and there was no yet 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.840 and then there was no publicity machinery, no record company. 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:50.720 All this stuff we now called the starmaking machine didn't 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.560 really exist. Then. You know that the communication went channeling 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.280 directly with artists and we'd send cops issues. Don't see 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:57.760 it and they go, oh, I like that. You know, 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.800 John Yoko, that magazines about music is taking it seriously. 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.760 You know it's taking us seriously. Yeah. We were reviewing 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:06.519 Beggars Banquet and the same way we thought of that 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.320 in their Satanic magazine. We got a letter from Charlie 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:11.760 Watts early on saying, jeez, we're sorry you didn't like it. 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.959 We'll try and do It's funny. It wasn't to any 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.800 business acumen. It wasn't because I knew how to market 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.840 or knew anything about business. I knew nothing about business 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.440 or complished nobody who helped you take it to the 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.120 next level? How does it kind of grew on its own? 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.000 You know, through trial and error. I made so many mistakes, 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:36.000 name one, Oh my god, let's see, spending fortunes in it, 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.680 make moving into huge offices without no idea how we're 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:41.360 going to pay for the overhead, Hiring the wrong people, 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.120 putting on a campaigns that you know, the wrong time. 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:47.680 There were small mistakes, then they got to be larger 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.680 and larger over the year. But you're learning the magazine 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.080 your father was not unpublished, not at all. My mom 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.160 was a writer and she taught me how to kind 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.000 of edit and a lot about writing. But I was 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.880 the editor of my high school year book, okay, And 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.040 then I worked for NBC News so as a when 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.720 I was in college. So I had journalistic experience, but 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.840 absolutely no business experience, you know. And it was really 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.320 it was trial there, you know, and we would only 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.600 spend what we cash that we had on hand. You 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:16.600 have to go. You didn't look for investors and people 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.480 to be in at various times. But after the fact 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.680 and always at the point which we didn't really need it, 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:23.840 but it seemed like a good idea. You know, I've 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.880 worked in movies and television for years, and you always 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.520 hear people talk about the music business as being the 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.960 worst of all these businesses in terms of the corruption 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.200 and the terms of the you know, the old Paola 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:38.200 and people trying to launch musical careers that way. Did 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:39.919 you find that that was a big problem for you 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:42.000 as the magazine got to be more successful, as people 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:46.120 wanted to use you to enhance people's careers. I mean, obviously, 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.160 you know, there were some pressure to cover the cover 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:50.960 onness I got a good review, but very little. I 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.560 mean through the first ten years of rolling stuff. We 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.440 were in San Francisco, before we got to New York. 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.680 We were relatively isolated from the music business, which was 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.800 in Los Angeles and the so we were kind of afterthought. 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.320 You know, we weren't. If we had been in l 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.480 A and been in the thick of the music business, 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.280 things would have been much difference. But we weren't. We 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:14.560 were isolated, and by the time we became a bigger factor, 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.080 and by the time we got to New York, our 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.480 reputation was that we weren't going to be persuaded by 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.240 money or favors or interviews or anything that that we 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.000 were independent and fiercely so and we just say whatever 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.559 the fun, whatever we wanted to say, and we weren't 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:30.240 we're gonna be held back. So if you were to 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.160 try and approach us and bribe us with something or other, 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.800 I'm sure they tried, though not really because by this 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:37.520 time it was very clear you didn't do that to 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:39.800 Rolling Stone. You know, Rolling Stone was gonna if you 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:44.480 do that, we're gonna write about it. So that never 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:46.920 was a problem, strangely enough. And I'd say one other 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.080 thing about the music business, I just thought it was 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.280 a great business, as opposed to say the television business, 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.839 where my experience in television was I had never seen 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:58.200 so many two faced people of my life. In those 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.920 days of networks. They were low is common denom there 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:02.680 and the people were a little as common there. And 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.120 then people in the records were always having fun, you know, 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.039 hanging out with the Stones and the Beatles and weather. 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.200 And that's what I gravitated towards what's changed in terms 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.520 of because the music business now is it just doesn't 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:17.000 resemble the music business. When I started with pretty much 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.800 independent labels run by the people who founded those labels 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.760 were founded the music business like I guess the early 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:25.600 days of the movie business, you know, and they had 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.599 a lot of control. Over the years, it's evolved into 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.480 there are four major record companies. They're owned by huge corporations, 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:36.479 and they have sound business practices and accounting standards that 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.440 have to meet in the New York Stock exchanged type 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.560 publicly listed company things. So the opportunities are not there. 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.560 And on top of that, they're not they're not the 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.719 dominant factor in selling records anymore. What is well radio 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.799 radio play continues to be. But all this internet stuff, 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:58.640 streaming services, downloading services, are you know, huge distributors of music. 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:01.839 How is that for you? In terms of is it 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.080 the eighties? The is it the nineties? When you say 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.360 to yourself, I'm not really keeping up with this anymore, 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.520 it evolves slowly. Absolutely, the phenomenal's true, like what is 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:14.320 going on today and today in music by today's artists, 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:16.600 artists have developed of last five or six years, I'm 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:18.960 not really that up. I'm I'm totally up on you too, 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.480 for example, But that's and they've got a new record 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:23.600 out and it's great. And I just finished at this 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.760 very table doing an interview with Bono uh last week, 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.160 which is gonna be the next cover. So I'm still involved, 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.400 you know, with the things I love, but I don't 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.040 when you have people to keep up, obviously younger people, 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:36.840 you know, I'm all, you know, like Lauren, I'm an 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.000 old guy. I mean, there was a time when you 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.240 could predict what was gonna be on SNL, that we're 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.040 gonna be the same thing that we were doing on 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.280 the cover of Rolling Stones. So people would come to town, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.800 they'd be go to thirty Rock for that stuff. They 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.440 come on to our shop which is a block away 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:54.960 and do that, and um uh I when I see 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.880 what's Lawrence got on SNL. Now, I don't really know 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.560 who most of them are, except for the occasional what 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.680 do you call a heritage jack like you two, you know, 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.720 but the great things about heritage access there's vital as ever. 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.840 I mean, Springsteen is just brilliant and more relevant than ever. 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.320 Did you see Springsteen show? Ye? You did? What you 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.360 what do you think? I think it's great haunting. I mean, 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:21.080 Bruce can shake the last seat in the highest rafters 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.840 in a place that's got sixty people in it, and 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:25.840 so put him in a place he's got eight hundred people, 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.560 and the intensity of his performance and his personality and 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.960 Bruce is just a remarkable I'm having luce with them. 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.680 In fact, sin as we're done. What is it about 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:41.520 that period? Something happened there with the Beatles, the Stones 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.480 and Dealing all be on the stage at the same time. 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.960 There is reminiscent of Paris in the twenties when you 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:53.000 had Picasso, Matise, sla All working at one of artists 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.480 that don't ever hasn't happened since may happen again in 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:57.840 the other field in ten year or something like that. 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.439 But you have that, then you also have the situation. 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.360 The phenomena, which is what you listen to between the 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:08.920 time you're eighteen and twenty two, is your favorite music 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.959 for the rest of your life and will remain at always, 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:14.960 And that's why you will always turn to that, Because 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.240 after twenty two, as you get into the business of working, 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:21.320 having a family, you know, your ability to spend so 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:23.520 much time involved with that music it gets more and 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.320 more limited. You get less familiar with it, and of course, 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.400 then there's the evolution of the music itself into forms 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:35.240 and formats that are technologically driven or commercially driven, and 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.840 I order youth driven. You know that are different than 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.440 what your imperatives are. Now, I don't myself. I'm not 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.079 a big rap fan. I've listened to it. I understand 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.600 the genus of it and the absolutely importance of it. 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.640 I mean talking about a tribal telegraph that communicate with 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.520 a different, disenfranchised group of people. I mean, if you 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:57.160 were listening to in w A, it's profound important. When 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:01.160 did you mark that when Rolling Stone became rome ing Stone, Well, 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.720 early on, I mean we we took us our franchise 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:09.280 popular culture at large, thinking that we were gonna learn 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.680 more about what society is about from what was happening 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:15.200 in Probably culture is saying that what was happening in 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.760 the church or in politics. And then of course we 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.000 started covering politics early on, and and our first big 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.160 hit and politics was in seventy two Hunter Thompson at 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.800 to cover the presidential campaign. What did you make of him? 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.480 Because it because the Thompson for me only exists as 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:31.960 like Johnny Depp and some baroque kind of movie what 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:34.439 was he really like? Hunter was a one. I mean, 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:36.880 Hunter was crazy person in many ways, but on the 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:41.440 end of it's really responsible, you know, thoughtful. He was 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:46.520 that southern gentleman, a charmer, uh and extraordinarily talented and charismatic. 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.960 And you love being with him, not only because he 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:52.480 was so charming and so funny, but also if you're 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:54.400 close and you felt when hanging out with it, your 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.960 this is as close to the danger zone and the 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.840 edges you've ever get, truly, you know, and so there's 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.800 an excitement. I mean we once one night we're driving 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:08.920 from in Massachusetts from Cambridge up to Maine where we're 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.800 going from staying in dick Win's. Dick Goodin's has came 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.200 to seem Norman Mailer Maine, and we drive up the 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.200 middle of the night, headful of acid, you know, both 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.320 of us in the car, and and always only once 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.880 he turns off the headlights. He liked playing pranks and 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.600 being a jokester and practical jokes on people, and so 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.560 he was enormously fun and enormously talented. He was difficult 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.840 to work with because he was time consuming and a 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.960 little bit unforgiving Uh in his demands on you as 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.640 an editor. But I loved every minute demands in terms 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:44.400 of his expensive especially it was in the word count 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.480 was great. I just let him run in terms of 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:50.280 just the demands on your time and your emotional strength 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:53.840 and your say, needy, I mean at three o'clock in 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:55.599 the morning, your phone rings, you know, well I this, 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:57.559 God damn it, and you know I'm running out this 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.640 and what you are? You know, I mean Hunters three 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:02.880 o'clock in the morning, I'm sleeping. I don't. He doesn't 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.480 even hear you say that. So it was it was 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.080 a full time job to edit Hunter, and during that 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.840 campaign and send me to the whole business of Rolling 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.520 Stone came to a hall because I couldn't pay attention 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:16.200 to All I could do was add a Hunter for 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.440 a year, you know, and pay attention to him in 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.640 his needs, and then, you know, on the side run 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.160 the company. And it was worth it right right right here. 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.400 We became just dearest friends forever and ever until he 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.680 killed himself. And and uh, which where were you? I 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.760 was in sun Valley, you know, in my house, and 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.280 somebody called me and you know, made me cry and 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.160 all that stuff, and you were no because Hunter by 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:43.880 that time had was virtually unable to walk, he was incontinent, 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.319 he had had a series of real serious health setbacks 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.640 between all the drug use, and you see it done 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.720 to his body world. And he was really, honestly within 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:58.360 two months or so, being committed to a hole, I 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:00.559 mean where he would in falling apart, aren't. Yeah, he 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.120 was falling apart and he wouldn't be and he be, 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.000 And once he was committed, he'd be trapped. I never 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:11.559 second guess, but you mentioned you're driving down the unlit 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.960 road with him, and everybody's dropping acid. Obviously drugs. Was 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.160 that another thing that you had to keep an eye on, 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:19.760 which was that you didn't go down the tubes like 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.040 these other people. I mean, I think that it was very, 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.400 very destructive for some people. Hunter destroyed him. I mean 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:30.160 it gribbled and physically men but also really killed his 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:34.240 ability to write. But luckily most people finally, somehow other 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.520 found the means to get it uner of control. For myself, 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:40.800 I just you were built differently, maybe built differently, or 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.000 more sense of responsibility, or I had an adgenuous I 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.240 had to move to rolling Stone was becoming incompatible with 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.120 drug use. But I think it has to do with 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:52.880 age and getting worn out, and certainly it has to 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:54.839 do with having kids. I mean, if you have kids 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:59.360 and you want to you cannot be getting up and 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.839 you can't. Yeah, you'll never see him, right, So we'll 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.040 look at taken away from here or they get taken anyway. 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:08.360 So it's kind of an abrupt thing. And I think 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.120 the amount of drug casualties we've seen are relatively really few, 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.520 given the size of the scope of the drug use. 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.320 And yet you resist, you know, you don't go well, 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:23.200 I mean I didn't altogether resist, but overall overall, yeah, 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:24.840 it could have been worse. It could have been worse. Nice, 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.640 you know, I saw many people go through this and 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:29.760 come out fine, you know. But I mean, if you 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:31.920 look back at all the cocaine used, you have to 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.640 say part of it was fun, you know, And that's 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.560 that's a real true story of our times. There was 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.440 a period where everybody we knew was taking cocaine. You 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.320 couldn't go out without running into at least in arts, 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:51.480 you know, circles that uh, that end and it's forgotten. 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:58.520 Now explore the here's the thing archives. Lord Michaels runs 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.640 his own kind of empire and it's all on television 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:07.080 for me, commercial television and those boundaries. I like it. 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.760 I like that you can't use certain language. I like 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:11.760 that you have to be bright enough to figure out 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.200 how to get your ideas across in that amount of time, 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:21.040 with intelligence being the thing that you're you hope is showing. 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:34.600 Take a listen at Here's the Thing dot Org. I'm 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.680 Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing now. 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.520 More from my conversation with Rolling Stone owner for Now 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.520 Yon Winner, he's decided to put the magazine up for sale. 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.760 This turning point as a chance to reflect on the 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.920 artists he spent his life among. Are you like the 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:54.400 head of an agency or you like the head of 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.600 a studio where these people are your friends? But it's 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.840 more business and it's kind of the cloak of friendship 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:02.960 around it. In terms of business, well, there's always the 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:08.200 initial introduction is always about business, you know, and uh, 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:14.120 after many years of knowing something really well, all that 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.640 kind of drops away. It's really about just a friendship 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.080 and the relationship and the vacations together, all that stuff. 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.280 So there's a number of i'll not throp the names now, 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:24.600 very rare thing from pick a couple of people who 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.400 I bet you've been royalty and music who impressed you? 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.400 All the best people impressed me. I mean you're talking 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.520 about people are incredibly talented and creative, and people are 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:37.120 incredibly in talent and creative, are generally fascinating, charismatic personalities 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.520 and great fun to hang out with, you know. And 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:45.080 I am uh in awe of talent. I really cherish it. 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.080 It's valuable as something that I celebrate. It's what Rolling 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:52.360 Stone celebrates. But for me, for instance, I've known Mick 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:59.960 for forty nine and fifty years and he's his own uh, 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.520 he's suey generous. I mean, he's as extraordinary individual. There's 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.440 no one else like him who has that love of charisma, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:09.560 who's not on his talent as an artist and a singer, 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.480 but also as a businessman, a producer of the concerts, 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.040 the producer of everything. I mean. So he's something that 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:17.919 kind of hold mom on the and awe and still do. 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.439 On the other hand, we have vacation together so many times, 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:24.439 you know, and we've been into each other's house so 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.520 much and as such a good nice friendship. What the 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.560 hell do you do on vacation? With Mick Jagger, you 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.399 guys like you cook, you have people who cook, You 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.159 have people what do you do well? Like? Uh, you 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:40.960 there's a lot of boats if you're going to the Caribbean, 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:42.960 and there's a lot of sailing, and there's a lot 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.240 of hanging out, and there's a lot of meals, you know, 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:47.600 and sometimes they're a little smoking and dope and then 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.040 watching movies. The most fun with Nick in the way 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.560 I mean doesn't haven about that is sitting around the 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.480 campfire singing where he brings his guitar. We go for 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.720 a picnic, you know, five six, seven or eight of 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.280 us and then I want to say the campaire then, 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.440 you know, and I say, well playing expectations. He does 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:05.560 that and then we sang a Dylan song together, and 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:10.760 you know, it's just rare and extraordinary times. An interesting 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.840 thing for me because you know, Jack are really really well. 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.240 Is so the Beatles are red hot and they're really 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:20.160 producing records for it is not less than two through 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:24.479 seven and the Stones go on forever. What's the difference. 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.480 Why does one band? Well? You know, I think with 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.879 the Beals you had very evolved personality, and John you 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:35.240 had an extraordinary level of popularity and intensity that nobody 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.600 has ever had before or since. And I think that 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.639 that that pressure made it really difficult for them to 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.240 stay together and they and when as drugs came along, 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:47.160 that's when they broke up, you know, And I think 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:53.280 drugs exacerbated their differences. How do how do the Stones 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.960 survive fifty years? First of the Stones broke up? Really 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.199 nobody knows it, but they you know, throughout the eighties, 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.199 you know, they didn't where, they didn't make records. You know, 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.040 they were functionally broken up. And I think that Mick 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:09.240 as a is was really persistent about wanting to find 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.679 the opportunity when they could get back together again, and 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:16.320 he was able to affect a reconciliation with Keith. And 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.760 you know, but that whole period again, drugs, that whole period, 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:23.960 Keith was taking drugs for ten and twelve years and 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:27.359 impossible to work with, you know, I mean, if somebody 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.159 Stone all the time, you just can't go in the studio, 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.879 you can't write together, you can't do anything together. You 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.000 can't actually you can't even plan a tour together. You 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:35.840 don't know if the guy's gonna be busted in Canada 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:37.680 or not, or is it gonna show up on stage. 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.840 So all those difficulties drove them apart, and they just 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.600 had to wait out the drug period. And now I 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:48.800 think both Keith and mc went solo, tried to see 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.359 what it was like and it wasn't gonna and that 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.520 people wanted to see them together, and so they you know, 0:19:54.600 --> 0:20:00.480 despite all and despite Keith's book, they being able to 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.080 work again together and and they do and the able 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.480 happened to love being on the road. You know, Mick 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:08.119 loves to sing. He he's a musician. I mean, in 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:10.120 the end of the day, Mick likes to sit around, 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:15.280 play guitar, talk about music. And Mick apparently uh functions 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.560 as kind of an almost quasi management, yes component where 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.320 you look at the Beatles and you say, when Epstein died, 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.639 they didn't have Everything started to fall apart and it's 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:25.680 a vacuum. Who's going to tell everybody what time to 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:27.280 go to the studio? We gotta get a record where 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:30.159 you gotta do this year we got There was a 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.399 struggle over the leadership might call on to be in charge. 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.280 John led him, but it was a complaint they didn't 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.800 have a wise voice telling what to do, and Nick 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.560 is among all the things is crely sober, smart business 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:46.200 smart businessman, you know who who sees the bigger picture. 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:48.760 I did this interview with Mick the only big long 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.320 end he's ever given, which we did find because he's 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.399 not a guy given to that type. But I just 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:56.639 finally said to this took place out in long and 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.320 him against it. You know, we really should do this 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:01.760 because I mean, we know each other so well, and 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.040