1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a rodeo star, a father, 2 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: a friend, dead owner. He wasn't bounced off a bronken buck. 3 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 1: That is not what happened to Olensey. I mean, see Grace, 4 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us 5 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious X one eleven. Take 6 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: a listen to this. Alcy Mitchell all the way from 7 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: freds No, Texas now Alsie is a guy that has 8 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: bowed through injuries this year. Broke his femur in willing West, 9 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: Virginia in about the middle of March. That a kid 10 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: can really read, you can really jump up and be flashy. 11 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: I believe we're gonna start this saying up great, he's 12 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: got Kruper bucking bulls, tropic thunder and what a way 13 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: to start things off on a Friday night for a 14 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: man who comes in number fifteen in the Velocity Tour 15 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: standings when here in Syracuse would get him in the 16 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: top forty in the PBR World standings. You're gonna lack 17 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: the numbers coming in eighty six points for Ouncey Mitchell. 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: Man hearing that announcer that's the PBR announcers at round 19 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: one of the Syracuse Velocity tour makes me feel like 20 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: I'm right there watching Ouncey ride the rodeo. What a star? 21 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: What more do we know about him? Taking us star friends? 22 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: At Fox thirteen, he was best known in the bullwriting 23 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: community and among his loved ones as Ouncey Mitchell. Mitchell 24 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: told his best friend and cousin Ezekiel, this was going 25 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: to be his year. His career in professional bullwriting was skyrocketing. 26 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: Went from relatively unknown on the standings until within a 27 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: matter of months he was twenty third in the world. 28 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: The Professional bull Riders Organization released a statement saying, quote 29 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: how else he got his name because he was born small. 30 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: He grew up to compete with a huge heart. Born small. 31 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: You know dynamite comes in tiny packages, doesn't it? And 32 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: this guy shot to the sky like a shooting star. Okay, 33 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: we know he was twenty third in the world as 34 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: a rodeo star, but what more do we know about 35 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: rodeo star outside take a listen to Emily Tenser. He 36 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: was a quiet cowboy, but his actions were loud, and 37 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: so was the impact he left in the arena and 38 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: on his family and every time I put my hand 39 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: in a bull rope. Now being him right there in 40 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: the back of my mind. He was a once in 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: a lifetime person and a family member and frand and 42 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: more so a brother. Just days ago he called his 43 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: daughter and told her that he would be home in 44 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: two weeks with a new puppy. She already picked out 45 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 1: a name for it. So not just a rodeo star 46 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: twenty three in the world, but a friend and a father, 47 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: a father who thinks to bring home a little puppy 48 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: to his baby girl just to make her smile. So 49 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: how does a rodeo star end up dead? Not getting 50 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: thrown off a bucking bronco, but dead in a pool 51 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: of blood? How does that happen? Take a listen now 52 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: to our friends at Fox thirteen and KUTV two. The 53 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: professional bull rider from Texas is dead after being shot 54 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: in a domestic violence incident in Salt Lake last night. 55 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: Police say the man rode in last night's rodeo at 56 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: the Utah State Fair. The shooting happened early this morning 57 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: in the ballpark area near nine hundred South and two 58 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: hundred West. The professional bull Riders confirming just this afternoon 59 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: the Demetrius Allen was one of their cowboys. He was 60 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: perhaps best known to fans, though by his nickname Alency Mitchell, 61 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: the twenty seven year old from Texas competed in rodeos 62 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: all across the country. In fact, he took part in 63 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: the Days of forty seven rodeo here in Salt Lake 64 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: City back in twenty eighteen, and he'd already competed in 65 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: several rodeo events this year. This guy has affected the 66 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: entire community, in fact, the rodeo community, not just there 67 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: where he's from or where he died, but across the country. 68 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: So as the shock and grief rocks the community. I mean, 69 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: I don't know how many of you have ever been 70 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: to a rodeo, but I gotta tell you there's nothing 71 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: like the rodeo. There's a country song dedicated to they 72 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: call the thing the rodeo. Let's see the blood and 73 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: the guts, the tears and the something, the gold and 74 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: the buckle. You get a big gold ule when you 75 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: win a rodeo match. There's just nothing like it. And 76 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: the stars of the rodeo are like rock stars like 77 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: Jagger or the Beatles, or Taylor Swift or Lady Gaga 78 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: or Britney Spears. Their stars and their sphere take a 79 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: listen now to our Friensy KHOU eleven fans and the 80 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: Professional Bull Writers Association family heartbroken over the news, tributes 81 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: are now pouring in, including from the CEO of PBR, 82 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: who posted on social media that the nickname Outcy was 83 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: given to him because he was born small, but that 84 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: he grew up to compete with a huge heart. Mitchell 85 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: was born in Fresno. According to the Wrangler Network, he 86 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: got his first steer at five years old. He also 87 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: had a firefighting degree from Houston Community College. Got his 88 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: first steer at five years old. You know, I remember 89 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: the first time I took the twins to a bull ranch, 90 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: and they and myself will never forget it. Once you 91 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: have that affinity, it seemingly never goes away again. You 92 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: were just listening to our friends at KHOU, and now 93 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: the question becomes, what happened to Ouncy? Why did he 94 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: die in a pool of blood? Take a listen to 95 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: our friends at crime online dot com. Several rounds were 96 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: fired through the glass door and window of the apartment 97 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: where Alan was staying. At least one round struck Alan 98 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: in the torso. The investigation reveals the bullet impacts appeared 99 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: to be coming from inside to outside. Police also say 100 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: there's no indication of forced entry or even an attempt. 101 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: There was blood evidence outside the apartment, but no observable 102 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: blood inside. No observable blood inside, blood outside the apartment. 103 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: What exactly happened? We've got an star panel to make 104 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 1: sense of what we know right now. In the shooting 105 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: death of Aunci Mitchell aka Demetrius Omar Allen with a 106 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: little five year old girl KSL dot com. Actually, thank 107 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: you so much for being with us now. I understand 108 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 1: that he was in Utah just to compete. Is that correct? 109 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: He is not from Utah trick and this was the 110 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: Utah State Fair? Is that correct? Describe the Utah State 111 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: Fair for me? What is that? Is it just a 112 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: rodeo or is are there rides in a ferris wheel 113 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: and often airs and funnel cakes? What can you tell 114 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: me about the fair? Yes? And the Utah Steat Fair 115 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: is the biggest fair in the steep in at last 116 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: about a week or two and it has all the 117 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: fair the traditional fair activitis um like live dot competition, 118 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: rodeo rights, carnival games, just everything that you would expected 119 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: to scare and it's a activity for people across the 120 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: seat of the year. I understands Outsy Allen had traveled 121 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: all the way from Houston to compete at the rodeo 122 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: in the Utah State Fair when he got there, now 123 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: he was at the fair. Uh with an on off girlfriend? 124 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yes, so they were at the fair together. 125 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: Limited question, Ashley MLA. Do we know where he went 126 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: after he competed? Where did he go? We know all 127 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: Place has said so far as they went to a 128 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: bar after going to the seire together, and we don't 129 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: know which fire that I would assume this they where 130 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: if they were in the Ballpark neighborhood, that that would 131 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: be somewhere downtown, which is where where there are many 132 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: bars that are popular in the area. You know. Joining 133 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: me right now. In addition to investigative reporter Ashley MLA 134 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: with ksl is Brad Micklin, high profile lawyer with the 135 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: Micklin Law Group his specialty men's divorce, men's custody, and 136 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: family law. M Let me let that sink in. I 137 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: guess you always think the man's the victim. Well, in 138 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: this case, you wouldn't be half wrong. The way you 139 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: can find Michelin is at Michelin Lawgroup dot Com. Brad Micklin, 140 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: How many times do I have to say it? Nothing 141 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: good happens after midnight? Number one? And how many cases 142 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: start at a bar? Brad Micklin, Now, don't just take 143 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: off your defense out for just a minute. Let's just 144 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: get real. How many murders, aggravators, salts, rapes, sidemy, you 145 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: name it, shooting, stabbings, cutting with a broken beer bottle, 146 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: knocked down, drag out, agasalt weapon, fist start at a bar? 147 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: Brad Micklin. I'm sure nance countless of them do. But 148 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: this didn't end at the bar. This ended at a home. 149 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: Did I ask you about a home? Listen? I've got 150 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: one hour to analyze what I know, think about it, 151 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: and I know you wouldn't do this, and I wouldn't 152 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: want to do this. But what if you got hand 153 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: in a case file one hour before you were to 154 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: strike a jury one hour? I don't know why, maybe 155 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: your trial partner fell out. I don't know, but I 156 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: am asking you. Just pretend you're on cross exam. Okay, 157 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: Brad Macklin, how does it feel to be in the 158 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: hot seat? You've had so many people on a cross exam, 159 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: You're no stranger to a courtroom. How many times generally 160 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: have you seen all sorts of cases start at a bar? Thousands, thousands, 161 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: not tens of thousands. I mean, you pour alcohol into 162 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: a situation and everything ignites. You know what, who may 163 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: know an answer better than you and I do to 164 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: that is doctor Tim Gallagher, or medical examiner for the 165 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: entire state of Florida. Man, you're a busy pathcaremed dot 166 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: com lecturer, University Florida Medical School founder and host. Listen 167 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: to this international Forensic Medicine death Investigation conference. Wouldn't you 168 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: guys like to go to that a death investigation conference? Okay, 169 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: let me put my dreams aside for a moment, doctor 170 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, Doctor Gallagher, how many bar fights turn into murder? Oh? 171 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: My goodness, so many? I mean, like the officer said, 172 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: the lawyer said, thousands, thousands of them. I mean it 173 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: takes up a very large portion of our day, you know, 174 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: sorting through all the alcoholics and all the alcoholic related incidences, assaults, fights, 175 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: et cetera like that. And it's also a large part 176 00:11:54,720 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: of my testimony when I do go to court time 177 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, doctor Gallagher, let me just 178 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: veer off the garden path for one moment and take 179 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: you down the rabbit hole. Could you just give me 180 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: a thumbnail of the types of murders you've seen that 181 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: result from bar fights? And when you see this in 182 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: the movies, I know you may think it's cliche that 183 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: all of a sudden a fight breaks out. That is 184 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: not just in the movies. That's real. So what kind 185 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: of deaths, what different kind of deaths have you seen 186 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: as a result of bar fights? Gallagher? Well, let me, yeah, 187 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: let me give you a ridiculous one, just to let 188 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: you know how. Okay, wait, let me get all suddle 189 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: and have a sip of my tea. Go ahead, go okay. 190 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: So I was a couple of years ago we had 191 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: a bar related fight where one brother shot the other 192 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 1: brother because one of them insisted the dog like them better. 193 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 1: Oh I'm so happy, little do you know? The four 194 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: of us fight about which one fat boy likes the 195 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: most all the time, But not in the bar. So 196 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: nobody's drunk. But you don't deal with twelve gay shotgun? No, no, 197 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: we do not. The only time we touch a gun 198 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: is when we're doing practice shooting with the scouts. The scouts. Okay, right, 199 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: that's some of the ridiculousness that we have to deal 200 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: with here on a very regular basis. Have you ever 201 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: seen anybody cut with a beer bottle? A broken beer bottle? Oh, 202 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: we've had that. We've had someone get thrown to a 203 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: plate glass window and then somebody else pick up a 204 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: shard of that plate glass and then stabbed them with that. Well, 205 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: you just have all the fun, don't you join you? 206 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: I think in the courtroom was exciting. Did you hear 207 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: that Mikelin through a plate glass window, picks up a 208 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: shard of glass and then stabs the guy. Dad, I 209 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: guess it was a guy. Okay, let me get out 210 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: of the rabbit hole and back to Ouncy Mitchell, just 211 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: twenty seven years old with a four year old daughter. Guys, 212 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: take a listen now to our cut three. This is 213 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: Emily Tents at Box thirteen. Lashawn Bagley, a twenty one 214 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: year old woman here in Salt Lake City. She was 215 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: arrested earlier today. The victim's real name is Demetrius Allen, 216 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: but he was best known in the bull riding community 217 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: and among his loved ones as Ouncey Mitchell. He leaves 218 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: behind a four year old daughter. Sunday night, Ouncy Mitchell 219 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: was in Salt Lake City doing what he loved one 220 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: last time. Hours later, he'd lose his life after police 221 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: saying on again, off again girlfriend shot him through a 222 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: glass store. Okay, right there, joining me, Doctor Mindy B. Mechanic, 223 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: professor's psychology emeredis cal State University, Fullerton, and she focuses 224 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: on trauma. I'm a victimization, intimate partner violence, sex assault, 225 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: and stalking. Wow, do we need a shrink? Doctor mchannic. 226 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: You know what just grabbed me When I was listening 227 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: to our friends. I believe that was at Fox thirteen. 228 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: On again, off again? How many times have I told 229 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: men and women there is a reason you broke up 230 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: the first time. Don't go back for seconds. Okay, don't now. 231 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: Once in a while, you see like a second and 232 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: you remarry somebody. You see it work out, like Marie 233 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: Osmond Jack Mary Osmen went back and married her high 234 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: school sweetheart. They're still together. It does happen. But when 235 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: I hear on again, off again in connection to our 236 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: murder case, what do you make of the on and 237 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: off relationship status? Doctor Mechanic, Well, it's hard to know 238 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: without knowing more facts about their relationship. One possibility is 239 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: that the relationship was very tumultuous, that there was some 240 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: kind of abuse, violence, fighting, that sort of thing. But 241 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: there could also be more benign explanations given the fact 242 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: that he lived in Texas and evidently she lived in 243 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: Salt Lake City, and so it's possible that something as 244 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: simple as the distance. So I being trained as a 245 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: social scientist, I tried to think more in terms of 246 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: hypothesis testing and what are all the possibilities, and not 247 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: to go in a direction of making assumptions. But certainly 248 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: tumultuousness was the first thing that came to mind, given 249 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: that we're talking about a domestic commic side. You're right, 250 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: and a long distance relationship had so much stress on it. 251 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: Plus there's a baby involved in this whole scenario. It's 252 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: got a four year old child. Were you about to 253 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: say something else on the mechanic, Yeah, I was going 254 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: to say. I work in a lot of domestic comic 255 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: side cases, and when women commit domestic comic side more 256 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: often than not, it's in the context of them having 257 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: experienced abuse in that relationship themselves. Now, I'm not saying 258 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: that happened in this case, and so if it didn't, 259 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: it would be a little bit more a novelist. But 260 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: one thing that does trigger domest of homicide against women 261 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: is separation or separation violence. And so to the extent 262 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: that what I heard here in this case was it 263 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: sounded like perhaps another breakup because he was heading over 264 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: to her apartment to collect some of his belongings. So 265 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: it's possible bullet signaled goodbye, this is over and I'm 266 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: you know, and perhaps her thought was, well, if I 267 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: can't have you, nobody will forget it. I won't accept that. 268 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: So that's another possible theory for what went through my 269 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: mind when I heard the facts of this case. Actually 270 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: am I joining us investigating reporter K. S L Actually, again, 271 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. What do we know 272 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: about that night? So we knew that they after they 273 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: went to guitar, at some point they got into an 274 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: argument and she lust on her own and he found 275 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: your right with someone else. And please have not said 276 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: who that person was, whether it was someone he knew, 277 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: or someone he met at the bar, or even a 278 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: right share service. That he let her know that he 279 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: was going to take up his belongings. From her house 280 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: hold on just a second. When you say he let 281 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: her know, you're talking about Denise Bagley, Lashawan Denise Bagley. 282 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: So is Bagley the on off girlfriend? That's what please see? Okay, 283 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: so we're talking about Lashawn Bagley is the on off girlfriend. Guys, 284 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut forty one. This is 285 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: our friends at crime online. To meet Fris Allen and 286 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: Lashawn Bagley went to a downtown Salt Lake City bar 287 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: after the Utah State Fair. The couple got into an 288 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: argument and Bagley went home without Allen. Police say Alan 289 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: got a ride to the apartment to pick up his things. 290 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: During the drive, he reportedly tried to call and text 291 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: Bagley and he was coming. According to the police at 292 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: the day that once Allan and the person who drove 293 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: him arrived, they both knocked on the door, saying they 294 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: wanted to get Allan's belongings. The woman drove back to 295 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: her apartment. Then, police say a witness and Allan showed 296 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: up to the apartment to grab his things. That's when 297 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: police say twenty one year old Lashawn Bagley fired several 298 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: shots through the front door, hitting Allen in the torso. 299 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: He died from his injuries. Police arrested twenty one year 300 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: old Lashawn Bagley booked into jail on murder and felony 301 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: discharge of a firearm good gravy. It's just like Ashley 302 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: m Way from KSL is telling us, joining me right now, 303 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: Chief deputy with the Pitt County Sheriff's Office in Greenville, 304 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: specializing in domestic violence cases. There is no way this 305 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: woman is going to be able to claim self defense. 306 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: I'll tell you why, John Guard, because she shot through 307 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: the door. Alsie wasn't even through the door according to 308 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: the witness, and I'm sure cell phones data will show 309 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: this if it's true. Tex said and called her in 310 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: a route to say, look, I'm coming to get my stuff. 311 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: So she's not going to be able to claim self defense. 312 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: The door was closed. Well, based off what's been released 313 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: so far in my review of everything, it would be difficult. 314 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: But again it's it's based on what's known and what's 315 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: been released stuck. Hasn't been an overwhelming amount of information 316 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: released by the police. There just really the basics. But 317 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: based on what we know now, yeah, one would assume 318 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: that would be somewhat of a difficult argument. N Uphill 319 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: will buy an along lap. Yeah, let's take a listen 320 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: to our cut number forty our friends at crime Online. 321 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: Police in Salt Lake City received a call just after 322 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: midnight on Monday about a man shot outside an apartment. 323 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: Responding officers found Demetrius O. Marletti fallen outside an apartment 324 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: with at least one gunshot wound. Alan did not live 325 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: at the apartment where he died. Beliefe say. The professional 326 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: bull rider was in Salt Lake City to compete in 327 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: an event at the Utah State Fair. He had arranged 328 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: to stay with his on again, off again girlfriend. After 329 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: the fair, Allan and his friend went to a downtown 330 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 1: bar but got into an argument. Alan went to the 331 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: apartment to get his things when shots rang out. Okay, 332 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: Brad m. Micklin, high profile lawyer joining us from the 333 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: Micklin Law Group. Brad, no way, this woman this on 334 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: off again girlfriend. Oh hey, actually, mway, is she the 335 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: mother of the little girl's Okay? So that's another woman, 336 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: and this is the girlfriend since he had the baby. Okay, 337 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: So he's got the little girl and the mother of 338 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: the little girl is Natitia Haywood, I believe. And then 339 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: we've got this woman, Lashawn Bagley. Okay, got it back 340 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: to you, Brad Micklin. Even with your or courtroom skills, 341 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: there's no way this one is going to pull off 342 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: self defense. She shot through a door. That's like they 343 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: do in the movies. Remember shooting through the door. I 344 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: mean the guy wasn't even through the door, for Pete's 345 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: sake before she unloaded a barrage of bullets. Yeah. I 346 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: certainly hope you're right, Nancy. I mean, unfortunately, we never 347 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: know what a jury's got to decide, but I'd be 348 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: hard pressed to believe that anybody would believe that this 349 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: was self defense or even a domestic violence homicide. It's 350 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: nothing short of murder. Brad Micklin, You know you keep 351 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: talking like that and Doli Shaun Denise Bagley's not going 352 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: to hire you. How could she possibly come up with 353 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: a defense in this case. He told her he was 354 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: coming to get his things, and it's pretty much like 355 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: doctor Mechanic hypothesized, he's coming to get his things to 356 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: get the hay out of Dodge and she's like, yo, no, 357 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 1: you're not taking your things in leaving. I don't care 358 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: if you are a rodeo star. I can't have you 359 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: nobody's going to have you. And when he comes to 360 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: the door, she knows he's coming. He's called, he's left messages, 361 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: he's texted. She unloads a hail of bullets and kills him. 362 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: It's very clear to me, what do you do with that? Well, well, 363 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: if I had to, unfortunately represent her, I would look 364 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: to the cycle of violence. Was there her significant past 365 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: violence in this relationship? Was she raised in abusive relationships, 366 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: even if it's just to negate her intent, her ability 367 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: to control her actions. If she was a longstanding victim 368 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: of serious violence in much of the buy her actions. 369 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: But I don't feel that way. Do you have even 370 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: a shred of evidence that she was a domestic violence victim? 371 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: Even a shred? No. I was disappointed that they even 372 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: labeled this immediately as a domestic violence homicide, because just 373 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 1: because you're in an intimate relationship and there's a violence 374 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: doesn't mean your domestic violence victim. I think that's a 375 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: very unique type of relationship. And this kind of label 376 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: causes us, or will cause us, to look at Amsie. 377 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: What did he do something wrong? Was he abus it? 378 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: He's the victim? And if we start looking to her 379 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: and say, well, why did she do this? Because it 380 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: was domestic violence, we lose the fact that he was 381 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: a victim of a vicious shooting. To doctor Tim Gallagher, 382 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: a medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, Doctor Gallagher, 383 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: I'm trying to imagine what type you know. You don't 384 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: win a football game, a baseball game, a basketball game, 385 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: a jury trial on your skills alone. You if you 386 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: want to win, you have to anticipate what the other 387 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: side is going to do and then destroy it before 388 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: it happens. You gotta think, You gotta think, what are 389 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: they going to say, what are they going to do? 390 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: How can I fight that? How can I stop it? 391 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: How can I foil it before it even happens. So 392 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: in this case, I'm imagining she's going to claim some 393 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: kind of self defen it's climbs and kind of battered 394 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: women's climb, whether it's true or not, and she might 395 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: try to climb she was not the shooter. That some 396 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: money on the outside of the house did it. But 397 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: is there a possibility, doctor Tim Gallagher, that the bullets 398 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: may have a splinter or some type of wood debris 399 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: on them. Well, from my understanding, the door was made 400 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: from glass. That's right, So we can very well inspect 401 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: the nose of the bullet for glass. Typically in full 402 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: jacketed bullets, you know you will not find it because 403 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: the soft part of the bullet is covered in brass, 404 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: which is a hard metal. But if it's an exposed 405 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: lead nose of the bullet, it'll often pick up the 406 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: glass and we can find that in the lead core 407 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: of the bullet. What do you mean by by full jacketed, Well, 408 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: the bullet is lead. It's made from a very soft 409 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: metal called lead, and lead deforms very easily, especially when 410 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: you're loading it into the gun when you're storing it, 411 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: so you want to protect that lead, and so you 412 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: put a coating of brass or copper or some harder 413 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: metal over it so the lead core doesn't get damaged. 414 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: Then when you fire that bullet, the outer core of 415 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: the metal, which is very thin, will break away and 416 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: then it'll expose the lead once it goes into the body, 417 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: and then that lead will do its damage within the body. 418 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: You want to find really interesting, Doctor Mindy B. Mechanic 419 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: joining US California State University, Fullerton. He didn't say, watch out, b, 420 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 1: I'm coming over to beat your a double ass. He said, 421 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: I'm coming over, get my stuff. I'm out of here. 422 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: That is what the witness says. That is what I 423 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: believe the cell phone that's just will say if they 424 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: are properly subpoenaed and taken from the iCloud hello, please 425 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: hear me police. So for her to claim any type 426 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: of self defense or she was scared, unless there is 427 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: some record of domestic assault, which we do not have 428 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: in this case on Aunci, I think it's very clear 429 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: she didn't want them to take a stuff and leave. 430 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: She didn't want the fight to be over. Doctor Mechanic, Well, 431 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: that is how it's appearing at this point. It doesn't 432 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: seem like there is any evidence that we heard so 433 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: far of any type of physical fight or any type 434 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: of violence that was proximal or preceding her shooting the gun. 435 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: It sounds like there was there was a long period 436 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: of time and that what she knew was he was 437 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: coming to take his stuff and leave. So that's why 438 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: my mind started going towards maybe this is an act 439 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: of separation violence that she was unwilling to accept the term. 440 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: She was saying, what is that? A separation violence? Just 441 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: focuses on people using violence in a relationship because they 442 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: refuse to accept the other person ending their relationship or 443 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,959 Speaker 1: leaving them and moving on. And so instead of saying, hey, 444 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: it's okay, we both move on, they commit violence. The 445 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: violent acts often homicide, you know, to express their their 446 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: rage and their unwillingness to accept the other person's decision 447 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: to move on. Doctor Mechanic, I hear what you're saying 448 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: about separation violence. Heard of this phenomenon before, but I 449 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: bet it's got a psychological label. When you're in an 450 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: argument with someone and the other person just leaves for 451 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: some reason that infuriates the other party. They don't want 452 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: the fight to be over. What is that dynamic? It's control, right, 453 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: it's not accepting the other person's autonomy, agency independence to 454 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: say hey, I'm whatever, I'm walking out the door, I'm 455 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 1: ending this conversation. So the person is basically exerting control 456 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: and saying I won't accept you doing what you're doing. 457 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to control this situation. You know. We always hear, 458 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: based on statistics that the most dangerous time for a 459 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: battered woman in a battering relationship is when she finally 460 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: tries to leave. Yes, but guess what as much as 461 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: I scream from the hilltops about domestic violence on women today, 462 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: that she is on the other foot. I want you 463 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: to take a listen to a male victim of domestic 464 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: battering and a lot more by his female partner. This 465 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: is Alex Skill on GMB. Listen to our cut fourteen. 466 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: So let's start at the beginning of your story. Because 467 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: you met her at college in twenty twelve. You're both sixteen. 468 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: This was your first relationship. What was she like? How 469 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: did that relationship begin? It was fine, it was good, 470 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: and it was it seemed normal and more from Alex 471 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: still on GMB, starting with our cut fifteen, and should 472 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: say she was she is an intelligent woman, but she 473 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: used that against you. Yeah, she was academically very bright. 474 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: She got a lot of a's, went to university obviously, 475 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: and I wasn't of that type. And I think she 476 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: used that quite a lot. In what way? What did 477 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: she do just to belittle me? So you're dumb, you're stupid, 478 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: you're vic all the time? Sixteen, You move in together 479 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: and this is where the physical abuse starts. And I 480 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: mean this, this started off where she'd be hitting you 481 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: over the head with bottles and yeah, yeah, and knives 482 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: were used also in what way? How did she I 483 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,239 Speaker 1: was lying in the bed and she would wait till 484 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: a sleep and just hit me on the head of 485 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: a bottle. I managed to get rid of the bottle, 486 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: and then she moved on to a hammer, started hitting 487 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: me with hammers everywhere like my shin's arms, head and 488 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: then I managed to throw that hammer in the field opposite. 489 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: So far it's over. But then everything she could find 490 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: to hit me with. From bits of wood crime stories 491 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, I want to go out to Brad 492 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: in Nicklin High Profile Law. You're a managing member of 493 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: the Nicklin Law Group. His specialty is men's divorce, custody 494 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: and family law. The phenomena of a man being the 495 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: domestic violence victim at the hand of a woman is 496 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,239 Speaker 1: not unheard of. No, it's not unheard of. I mean 497 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: it's always been there. There are just as many abused 498 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: as violent women as there are men. Recognition in't believe that. Well, 499 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: how can you say that? That's the bias that we 500 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: all face. When a man in a heterosexual relationship calls 501 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: the police and says I'm being abused, more often than not, 502 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: the police will eager arrest him or tell him to 503 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: leave and let it cool down. There's a bias in 504 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: our system or legal system. There's a bias with police 505 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: departments that men aren't victim and that makes it harder 506 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: for men to report it, to leave it, to separate 507 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: themselves from the violence, because they're faced with such difficulties 508 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: getting out. Okay, see, I think you, Brad Micklin, who 509 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: is a stellar trial lawyer, want a lot of cases. 510 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: I think you lose a little bit of credibility when 511 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: you try to tell the world there are just as 512 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: many male victims of domestic violence as there are female. 513 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: That's just very simply not true statistics. That's what I said. 514 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: Oh okay, I said there are just as many violent 515 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: and abusive women as there are violent and abusive men. 516 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: That's like saying that there are no abusive lawyers or 517 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: doctors are they're good in bed and all people on 518 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: all races and all genders and all occupations. To say 519 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: that men are less often victims is the bias and 520 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: the problem that our system needs to address. Okay, I'm 521 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: going to go to National statistics and maybe you know 522 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: more than the Department of Justice, but on an average 523 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: twenty people per minute physically abused by an intimate partner. 524 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: In the US, more than ten million women and men, 525 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: one in four women and one in nine men experience 526 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: domestic violence, Doctor Mindy Mechanics, is that your experience that 527 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: there are just as many men victims of domestic violence 528 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: as women. So I don't want to speak from personal anecdote. 529 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: I prefer to rely on data. So what I'll tell 530 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: you is that research has looked at this quite extensively, 531 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: and where we find gender parody, meaning women and men 532 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: engage in about the same rates of intimate partner abuse 533 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: is when we look at low level acts of violence, 534 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: so that would be things like pushing, slapping, shoving, and 535 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: verbal abuse yelling. That kind of thing actually is engaged 536 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: in and roughly equal measure. But the kind of serious, 537 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: injurious violence that caused women caused in people to seek 538 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: attention for yes, injuries, that kind of the kind that 539 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: usually ends up resulting in depth of that is very 540 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: disproportionately well. According to the National Crime Victimization Study, and 541 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: it was nearly ten year study, twenty four percent of 542 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: domestic violence survivors are men, which means that seventy six 543 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: percent are women. Now you know that those are statistics. 544 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: Statistics are never allowed in court. But back to a 545 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 1: perfect example of a male being a victim of domestic 546 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: violence at the hands of a female. Take a listen 547 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: again to Alex Skill on GMB. She made you made 548 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: you sleep on floor? Yeah, I slept on the floor 549 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: for about eight months with I had to wear my 550 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 1: own clothes that I wore in the day. I probably 551 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: wore the same clothes about four days because I couldn't 552 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: take it off because and I was putting clothes on 553 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: top of me as my quilt, and I had clothes 554 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: as a pillow. And you were too scared to complain 555 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: or do anything about this. Yeah, there was nothing I 556 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: could do. I had no way of contacting anyone. And 557 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: if I did do it, I would have. She told 558 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: me if I ever tried to leave, she'd kill me. 559 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: When did she burn you? She started stabbing me before 560 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: that with a knife, And she wouldn't stab, she would 561 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: hit with a knife as if it was a weapon. 562 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: She'd hit so it'd leave big gashes. And they were 563 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: left untreated. And then after it was November time, we 564 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,439 Speaker 1: went to go and watch a concert and I woke 565 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: up because she was pouring boiling water onto my back. 566 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: It was like an alarm call of yeah yeah. So 567 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: we see the violence at the hands of the female 568 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: partner on the male, escalating from hitting to severe beatings 569 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: to stabbing, cutting, to pouring boiling water. You may ask 570 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: why didn't he tell cops, why didn't he leave take 571 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: a listen, question me in the house. We know it's 572 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: not you doing it to yourself. And so the other 573 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 1: he sat me in the car and he said, you're 574 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: not getting out of this car until you told me 575 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: the truth. And I said, I'm doing it to myself 576 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,479 Speaker 1: and he goes, you're not. He switched his body camera 577 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: and he goes, you're gonna tell me now straight away. 578 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: So as soon as I knew that no one else 579 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: was watching it, just me and him, yeah, it come out. 580 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: And I said, please just go on the neighbors accusations 581 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: and don't say it's from me. Even with the cops 582 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: flanking him, he was afraid to make the client himself. 583 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: He was being horribly abused by his female partner. We 584 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: have just witnessed this in Miami with the only fans 585 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: model and her longtime boyfriend. Take a list our friends 586 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: at ws v N and WPLG A bloody Sunday domestic 587 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: killing inside a trendy Miami high rise. I think everybody 588 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: in shock actually ate craberd Out. These images come courtesy 589 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: of TMZ. The Sparkling One Putty So condominium is where 590 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: it got violent days ago, and now a twenty seven 591 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: year old man is dead and his family is devastating. 592 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: This trio was very close to twenty seven year old 593 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: Christian Obumselli and his girlfriend, who they've identified as twenty 594 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: five year old Courtney Clenny and only fans model and 595 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,720 Speaker 1: Instagram influencer. So when police reported that Obumselly was fatally 596 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: stabbed by Clenny on Sunday inside their Miami apartment, the 597 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: friends were left speechless. They portray a very violent relationship 598 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 1: at the hands of only one person seen her hit him. 599 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: I've never seen him hit her. And the only fans 600 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: model is behind bars right now on a murder charge. 601 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:15,919 Speaker 1: But who could forget the poster girl for stalking, terrorizing 602 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: and murder Jody Arius listen with all these lies, right 603 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,919 Speaker 1: and the jury knows that these are lies, but she's 604 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: still claiming self defense. Now, last time I checked there 605 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: was no witness to this confrontation other than the accidental 606 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: photos that were taken. She has to testify, doesn't she 607 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: if she she wanted anyone to believe the catch man 608 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: nine stab wounds to the back. That was the reality 609 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: check I was about to give Vinnie Politan And it's 610 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: just like doctor Mindy mechanics, says Jody Arius knew Travis 611 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: Alexander was about to leave her and take another girl 612 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: on an exotic vacation, and it all ended the stalking, 613 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: the pursue, the anger, and then the moment she finally 614 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: realizes he's leaving. Same thing happened with Shana Hubers when 615 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: she realized her boyfriend they were broken up, up and 616 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: coming Lawyer Posting was having a date that night. I 617 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: think it was Miss Ohio. The fact that he was 618 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: leaving her losing control was too much for her to take. 619 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: Listen our friends at Fox nineteen. Cecily Miller testified that 620 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: Hubers knew that Posting was going on a date with 621 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: Miss Ohio. Audrey BOLTI the night she shot and killed him. 622 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: When I remember is when she shot him, it was 623 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: like bang bang bang, bababean. It's grayed and then She 624 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: sit down and she said, I just gave a nose 625 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: job he always wanted. Cackle left. She shoots him in 626 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: the face and says, I gave him the nose job 627 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: he always wanted. Well she can rotten Hell Ashley Emily 628 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: joining me K s L. Where is Lashawn Denise Bagley? 629 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: Right now? Right now, she's in this thought leak Johnny 630 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: Chill and being held the Nobel warrant? Is it for murder? Yes? 631 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: For investigation of murder. She has not yet been formally charged. 632 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds for rodeo star friend and 633 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: father Bouncey Mitchell did at twenty seven Goodbye friend,