WEBVTT - 040624 How Effective are “Tough on Crime” Laws? (Part 1) 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.160 Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.520 welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:09.760 mission is to foster allyship empathy and understanding. I am 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.039 your host, Ramsey's job. He is Ramsey's job. I am 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.320 Q Warden. You are tuned into Civic Sciphon, dude, you are. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:21.440 Please stick around because we have another one of these 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.720 types of shows that are you know, we're going to 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.360 have to come to terms with some stuff on today's episode. 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.200 The first thing we're going to spend some time talking 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:35.040 about is the new wave of tough on crime laws 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:41.040 that are aiming to intimidate criminals, and we're going to 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.680 provide a critical examination of how that tough on crime 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:52.319 rhetoric and that approach doesn't really help anyone. It is 0:00:55.120 --> 0:01:00.280 basically fear mongering, and you know, it sounds like it 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.200 would be effective, but in practice it just isn't. 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:07.000 Yeah, they frame it that way. It's intentional dishonesty. They 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.720 know that they're not being tough quote unquote crime and 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.039 the crime the term being vague enough for them to 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:15.080 keep using it in that way right right when it 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.039 really it solves nothing. It just gives them an excuse 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:23.880 and a public license to harass, fearmonger, and intimidate people 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.240 who they have already pre criminalized. 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.440 Exactly. That's a great way of describing it. So we're 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:34.200 going to give you a more critical breakdown of this phenomenon, 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:36.440 and then we're going to spend the second part of 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:42.920 the show discussing the migrant workers who fell into the 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:47.440 river and lost their lives in Baltimore. We feel like 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:52.440 somebody needs to speak up for them, and you know 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:54.360 who better to do it than us. We're here with 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.840 the microphones and we feel that those people and indeed 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.440 that community deserve some representation. So we'll do our best. 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.040 But before we get there, as always, we're going to 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:08.080 start off with some Ebony excellence, and I think that 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.200 you should probably take this one because it's another one 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:11.280 that's kind of right up your. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:17.279 Alley, Right up my alley. It's funny Ebony Excellence sponsored 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.680 by Actively Black. Visit actively black dot com. There is 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:26.480 greatness in our DNA. This story is from the Philadelphia Inquirer. 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:32.440 Tessa Johnson scored fifteen points, Kimla Cordoso added twelve, and 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.280 undefeated South Carolina advanced to the final four of the 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.440 women's NCAA Tournament with a seven to fifty eight win 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:39.799 over Oregon State. 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.160 On Sunday seventy. 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.280 To fifty eight win over Oregon State on Sunday, I'm sorry. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.600 South Carolina made it to the national semifinals unbeaten for 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.079 the second straight season. The Game Cocks lost to Caitlin 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.800 Clark and Iowan the Final four last year. So imagine 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.840 head coach Don Staley being so incredible that with an 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.239 entirely new team, she is once again undefeated and once 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.360 again in the final four. The game Cocks, who have 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.600 made the Final four for four straight years, will play 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.640 North Carolina State on Friday night in Cleveland. Two and 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.120 more wins would make South Carolina the tenth school to 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:15.280 finish undefeated and the second to do it since Yukon 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.600 did in twenty sixteen. Top seed is South Carolina thirty 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.840 six and oer led by four and half through the 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.120 fourteen point lead before number three number three seed Oregon 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:28.040 State got within sixty two to fifty eight with three 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.800 minutes and fifty five seconds left in the game, but 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:35.040 the Beavers then missed their final seven shots and the 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.960 Game Cocks were able to prevail. Coach Staley, an all 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.240 time great player in her own right, and now showing 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.000 that she is one of the best to ever do 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.240 it in the coaching ranks as well. 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.600 You see why I have him read these things, because 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:50.320 he knows all this extra stuff. It's not even in 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.520 the article. I don't know anything. I've never heard of 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.240 these people, but I'm glad that they are doing so well. 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.000 And I'm glad obviously for any time there's a black 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:05.200 woman who is thriving. So all right, so let's talk 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:10.640 about this new wave of tough on crime laws. These 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:16.080 laws aren't aim to intimidate criminals. In the article that 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.600 we're going to read suggest that the experts that are 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:24.200 kind of monitoring this phenomenon are skeptical with that approach 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.360 having the intended results. So before we actually get into 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:39.000 the USA Today article, I want to explain how police work. Now, 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:40.680 we do this all the time and UQ on the 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:49.599 show Police are. They respond to crime once the crime 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.640 has already taken place. They respond In ninety nine percent 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.440 of instances the police respond to crime. They don't prevent 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:58.599 the crime from happening in first place. 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.800 But a very interesting thing because I every time you 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.280 say this out loud when you're saying it. I'm a 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.000 member of the audience. I know this to be true, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.240 and it's still kind of like calibrates me back into reality. 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:18.279 It's television propaganda, movies, books would have aganda that the 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:23.040 police are out here full time working to prevent crimes 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:24.840 from happen, Like that's what they do all day. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:26.960 Is that's what your mind, And so you would think 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:28.640 more police electively as. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.480 A group out here making sure that things don't happen, 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:36.280 when in essence, what you just said is very true. 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.119 So watch the response to crime mechanism not a crime 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:40.960 prevention thing. 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.919 So watch this. Okay, So I watch this YouTube channel. 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:49.560 It's called Not Just Bikes, and it's a YouTube channel 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.320 about city planning. I'm into some weird stuff, so forgive me, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.000 but I like the idea of living in a peaceful, livable, 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.400 walkable city where you can go out and enjoy nature 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:00.920 and take your son on a walk and that sort 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.359 of thing, right, And I'm not saying that I'm complaining 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.320 where I do live, but I just kind of like 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:10.160 the thinking, right and in other parts of the world, 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.599 when so in this part of the world right where 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.880 we live, if you're driving your car too fast. The 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.240 police will clock you, pull you over and write you 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:25.080 a ticket. Right, And that's how they quote unquote control crime. 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.599 But this fits what we're discussing right now too, because 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.120 they can only respond to the crime that has been 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.440 committed right now in other parts of the countries. What 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.599 they do is they rework the road in such a 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:44.840 way to where drivers' habits reflect the intended speed of 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.520 the road. In other words, they might they incorporate it's 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.680 called traffic calming elements like a little bit of a 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.039 wiggle in the road or you know speed bumps, or 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.680 you know tabletop crosswalks, or you know these sorts of 0:06:55.720 --> 0:07:01.120 things that naturally will cause drivers to slow down. And 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:06.840 so they're proactive in preventing the speeding, not reactive, and 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:10.400 it works and as a result, they're less pedestrian deaths, 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.000 and people walk more, and they get out and they 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.240 enjoy the city and they're not cooped up in the home, 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:16.400 and then they can get places. They don't have to 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.920 have a car, so it doesn't disproportionately punish more people. 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:23.200 Oh it all right, So the way of thinking translates 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:28.360 over into like bona fide crimes. Okay, So Again, we've 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:29.840 talked on the show. If you want to take the 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.320 reins of this one, because I know you've talked about 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:31.640 it before. 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:33.080 They don't want to take the rains, but I do 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.920 want to speak on the things that you just said. 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.880 The problem, however, and this is kind of the elephant 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.520 in the room with these preventative measures, there's a lot 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.400 of money to be made in crime response and incarceration 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.080 and the way that they do business. Now it's not 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:52.760 the way that they enforce the law, it's the way 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:53.480 that they do business. 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:54.640 Yeah, that's a great way to say. 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:57.960 Enforcing the law the way that they do, watching crimes 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.640 happen and then responding to them the punishing accordingly, is 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:02.520 big business. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:05.640 So WHATQ was talking about here is the privatization of prisons. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:09.080 There are people that stand to make money from imprisoned individuals, 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:13.600 right and all of that. Yeah, they just they just 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.800 have their necks on society at large. Right. And of course, 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:25.320 this disprope disproportionately affects black, brown, or marginalized peoples. So 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.480 we're paying this as a tax, not just fiscally, but 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.960 in terms of our freedom and our capacity to move 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.240 around and so forth. We have the highest incarceration rate 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:38.360 on earth in this country because of this way of thinking. Right, So, 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.240 what I was going to say is, on this show, 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:47.840 we often suggest that if a person wanted to fight crime, 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.520 if the governmental agency wanted to fight crime, they could 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:58.240 invest in programs that address the root cause of crime, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:04.360 which is often poverty or wealth, inequality, access to resources. Yeah, 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.320 things like this. Right, There was one study that I 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.480 read some years ago. So please don't quote me on this, 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.600 but I believe it to be true. Again, this is 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.040 not me standing on this one, but there was in. 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.840 The idea and pick out the semantics that make. 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.400 It wrong, thank you, thank you. So, there is a 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:28.319 correlation between crime rates and access to head start programs, 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:34.440 access to preschool programs. There is a correlation between crime rates. 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.880 In other words, crime rates drop when communities have after 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:43.400 school programs. Uh, there's a disproportionate effect on crime. In 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:48.320 other words, crime goes down as job opportunities increase. Right, 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:54.240 And and so what we have been conditioned into thinking 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:58.000 through the propaganda and copaganda and on and on is that, 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.760 you know, all the people in jail are just bad 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:05.760 guys and not these people come from bad circumstances where 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.280 they it's like, look, I got to bus and move, 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.200 I gotta figure something out. This is this is what 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.319 was going on. I had no alternative blah blah blah, 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:17.000 which accounts for a significant amount of what we consider 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:23.839 to be crime. And by investing in these programs, by 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.120 investing in head start programs, if you really wanted to 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:29.320 see the crime rates drop, you would invest in head 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.520 start programs right based on the data. And we'll get 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:34.599 into the article because the article kind of explains a 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.240 little bit better than I do. But this was the 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.040 whole way of thinking behind the defund the police movement, 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.000 because you know, people would say this and they would 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.400 show this data, and then the lawmakers would push back 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:46.360 and say, well, where are we going to get the 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:48.600 money from. And they'd be like, well, you're spending the 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.600 money that you're trying to use to quote unquote fight 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.480 crime in the wrong place. You know what I'm saying. 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:57.079 You're responding to crime while doing nothing to address the 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.679 root cause. So crime doesn't go down, and then you 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.760 have this runaway effect where you're just hiring more and 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:04.240 more police officers while crime goes up. 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.520 Or increasing your budget even if it doesn't always mean 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:09.600 more officers. Who does mean more money? 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.200 Right, And we've covered on this show too several cities 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.000 that increase their police budget, they hire more police, and 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.760 it does nothing on the crime rate. The crime rate 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.840 doesn't go down whatsoever. Right. So, now I'll get into 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:24.480 this article and then we'll break it down a bit 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.319 further so from USA today, a recent wave of new 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:32.000 policies and ballot measures make it clear many politicians across 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.640 the country think crime is out of control and tougher 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.480 laws will help fix the problem. See, this is why 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.720 it's so weird that you can elect people who are 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:50.200 not that informed. Right, these people can if you're longer 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.400 and good. I think you're showing, as usual, a lot 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.080 of grace here. I don't think that they don't know 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.480 any better that they're not informed. They just understand the 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.680 things the way they are profit them the most. And 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.520 conversations like this. We're from Arizona and we had a 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:10.800 very notably tough on crime sheriff for a long time, 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:14.439 Sheriff Joel Apyo, and his thing was I'm going to 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:16.760 round everyone up, put him intense city. That was the 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.720 name of the jail out here. I don't know if 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.560 it still exists, but I think they'd stop doing it. 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.360 Maybe it was always inhumane, you know, it's one hundred 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:24.599 and twenty five degrees. 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.920 Yeah, exactly, Yeah, Diamerican stuff. Anyway, So this guy was 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:35.040 famously quote unquote tough on crime, and so it's interesting 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:36.400 to see the effect of that. I'm going to keep 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.360 reading here. So from Louisiana to California, efforts to increase 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.719 criminal penalties and give more power to police have made 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.080 it on the books. As politicians say they want to 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:50.480 make their streets safer. Most Americans fifty eight percent, meanwhile, 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.360 now think the country is not tough enough on crime, 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.480 a reversal from just a few years earlier forty one percent, 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:00.880 according to Public Opinion pulling from Gallop. Efforts to crack 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.000 down on crime, commonly called tough on crime laws, have 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:07.080 been studied for years and have been found to boost 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.960 the number of people in jail, but there's little evidence 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:15.440 that their effective. Their effective crime deterrent experts say that's 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.439 in part because most people who commit crime aren't thinking 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:19.960 about the penalties for their action. 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:26.360 Okay, and I fear mongering, just to be clear, works 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.920 on both sides of the aisle, right, Yeah, yeah, most 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:36.120 affected by this these policies still think we need more 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.319 because we've been taught that, we've been doctor NATed. You 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.040 know what, we do need more police so we can 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:41.520 be safer. 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.760 And here's the thing for anyone listening to us today. 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.000 If you think this, if you thought this in the past, 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.839 I'm not mad at you because it makes sense, right, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.880 It makes sense. Yeah, well, more police, tougher laws. Right, 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.440 it just makes sense if you just hear it and 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.840 listen to it on its face. But we are a 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.560 data driven your prize here at Civic Cipher. We use 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:07.080 the stories to give you an aperture into the data 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.480 to help you interpret and understand the data. But this 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.120 is all based on data, right. Every every episode we 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:17.520 do is either based on lived experience or data. There's 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.760 some data set that affirms the positions that we take. 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.560 And this is no exception. Right. So again for people 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.280 that once thought, okay, well yeah that makes sense, I 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:32.960 want more police that I want to live in a 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.960 safe community. More police. Police make me feel safe, So 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.400 let's get more police. Why not, Well, you're spending the 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.600 money and you're not safer. It just doesn't work. And 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:48.040 so when you look at the data. Logical people would 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.880 not give into their emotions, you know, not say well, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:53.560 the police make me feel safe, so let's just get 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.160 more police. Logical people say, well, if the police aren't 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:00.040 making us safer, we should probably do something that makes us. 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.000 Yeah, it's about giving people the proper lens to stop 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:05.560 and have that conversation with themselves. Though, because this next 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.920 paragraph that you're about to read speaks to how they 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.600 so effectively frame this so that even lots of people 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.720 hear it and don't process. 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:16.560 So, so do me a favor. Why don't you take 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.160 this one because you got you got something for me. 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.280 Tough on crime laws attempt to solve crime by stigmatizing 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:28.120 people who commit crimes rather than addressing the root causes, 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.720 driving mass incarceration and disrupting families and communities while heavily 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.920 impacting people of color, said Sherry Stone. I think that's 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:41.640 media tour, the co founder of the advacy group Pero 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.800 Illinois and a professor at Ohio Wesleyan University. Some policies 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.760 that have popped up recently may have intended to send 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.760 a message about crime tolerance rather than stopping crime directly, 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.920 or crime intolerance. If you will right if you do something, 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.960 we're going to punish you worse. But it was mentioned 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:04.200 earlier in the story. When scarcity and poverty and hunger 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:09.600 and sometimes health crisis like drug addiction come into play, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:11.920 people are not thinking, Man, if I do this, I 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.520 might get in trouble. People are thinking I'm starving and 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.520 you got it and I don't got it. And I 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.200 forgive my lack of proper dictation there, but that was intentional. 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.040 You have it and I don't have it. No, you 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:29.840 got it that food money, whatever, they're they're fixed. 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.720 These are property. Yeah, so it's not easy. People are 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.320 are doing fraud, wire. 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.520 Fraud, and they're not weighing the consequence. 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.360 I mean, let me hold on, because there's some people 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:45.000 to do please believe it, but some straight up bad actors. 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.120 But the crimes that we're thinking of, like property crimes. 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:49.640 And well, the crimes that they're being tougher on, Let's 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.200 be honest, that's what I'm They're not being tougher on 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.520 all crimes. That's how you see people quote unquote getting 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.840 away with things where they're found guilty and then you 0:16:58.840 --> 0:16:59.760 see the punishment. 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.200 You're like, wait what, Yeah, they're they're focused on street crimes, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:04.240 not they're. 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.400 Focused on the type of crimes that you do when 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:12.040 you're poor or hungry, you know, so the way that 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.360 a lot of people in this country have to survive 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:20.360 is categorized as criminal. You know, there's a reason ironically 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:25.120 that marijuana legal. Marijuana has become a multi billion dollar industry, 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:27.200 but it's still categorized. 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.560 The same way as the Schedule one drug. 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.800 Yeah, it's in the same category as whatever you're whatever, 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.720 the worst drug you're thinking of right now. Marijuana still 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.240 stays in the same category. There's a reason because they're 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:44.040 they're kind of stuck, right They're benefiting the most from 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.119 this new legal industry, but they understand that there are 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:50.000 still people that look like you and I who could 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.399 and do profit from the sale legally or legally of 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.679 that plant, and they need to still be able to 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.480 punish it as aggressively as they always have. So they're 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.240 they're kind of stuck right now trying to justify that 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.560 to themselves how this is still the way that it is. 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.240 And you know, conversations that our that our president has 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:11.440 had to have with some of the people around him. 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.560 Regarding that it's been it's been a heavier lift for 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:20.919 him than he originally suggested. And we've looked into this recently, 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.200 given me both to see kind of what the status 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:26.480 of Neither one of us have ever tried any drug, 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.639 Neither one of us have ever drank alcohol in our lives, 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.720 and we're in our forties. But this is something we're 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.240 very interested in because again we know that it disproportionately 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.960 affects black and brown people. So you're not wrong about that. 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.320 But yeah, again, these these people that approach crime like 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.280 it's almost like it's it's cool when they do it. 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:51.160 It's a problem when I. 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.240 Do it right. And even then they figured out a 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:58.520 way to to make one form of a sustance. 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:01.080 Oh yeah, I heard cracking cocaine. 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.920 Yeah, in another form of the exact same substance. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:04.560 And entirely Yeah. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.080 I think it's times who's more likely to commit the crime, 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:12.080 right is they don't even it's not in the shadows. Yeah, 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.520 they're playing in our face as young people say, Yeah, 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:14.840 this is. 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:18.800 This has been forty years now. The example Q was 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.080 talking about is cocaine compared to crack, and the sentences 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:28.480 were harsher for crack, and the compassion and the approach 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.120 from the criminal justice system was certainly a lot more 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.640 lenient with cocaine than it was with crack because crack 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:39.240 disproportionately affected black and brown communities, Black communities in particular, 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:40.320 and poor community. 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:42.679 We don't forget to leave that part out, I mean, 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:44.360 don't forget to include that part. 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.520 You're sorry, sure, all right. So tough on crime in 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:49.680 this country is a way of thinking about how to 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.359 deal with social problems. It became strongly articulated in the 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:57.840 late seventies and eighties. Stone Mediatore said, since then, study 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.280 after study has shown that it does not work, all right. 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.000 A good example of tough on crime approaching the US 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:05.960 is the War on Drugs that saw a sharp increase 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:07.680 in the number of people sent to prison for drug 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:12.160 offenses starting in the seventies. Berlin Bellin said, yet that 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.159 didn't reduce the availability of drugs or the number of 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.120 people using them. Bell And said, so, all it did, 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:20.760 and we talked about this too before on the show. 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:24.240 All the War on Drugs did was criminalized drugs so 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:25.399 that you could put black people and. 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:27.359 Jay turn sick people into criminals. 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.719 Yeah, and drugs. On this show, we affirmed that that 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:35.639 drug abuse and drug addiction is a health issue, not 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:36.240 a criminalist. 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:37.720 And that's not I don't even want you to frame 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.360 it that way, not on this show health professionals. Yeah, yeah, 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:42.800 on this show makes it. 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.840 Sound like that's no, no, yeah, we got that from 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:46.480 someone now. 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:50.520 That the right people have become victims of this health 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:51.080 crist Yeah. 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.120 When it's like if you figured out how to frame 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.440 it problem and that that feels very hurtful. You got 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.240 to imagine for those of us listening that aren't aren't 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:05.960 black and old enough to have lived in the eighties, uh, 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:10.159 and seen what crack does to a poorer community, and 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:16.760 to now see the governmental response, which is a lot 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.560 more compassionate, a lot less heavy handed. To see the 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.919 criminal justice system have a lot less a lot more 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:27.560 compassionate approach, a lot less heavy handed, and they treat 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:32.199 these you know, often enough, they're white kids who are 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.800 addicted to these drugs and it's a health issue and 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:37.440 it always has been. But when they when you see 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:39.320 the approach and you remember the approach that they had 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.360 to black people in our community. You're from Detroit, I'm 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:45.400 from Compton, so that's really where the crack hit hit, right, 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.960 So I was I was born into that. The first 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:52.159 years of my life was that the environment was very 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:57.040 much shaped by that. So when you see now, you know, 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.800 those of us that kind of have that amount of perspective, 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.000 it almost seems very hurtful. It's like, man, where was 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.199 y'all at when this was happening to my people? We 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.800 had to we had to overcome that, and I'm proud 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:10.600 of us for having done that. You know, there's some 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.280 people obviously there's not all of us, you know, but 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:16.920 you know that that term being associated with crack babies 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:19.040 and you know all that, you know, all this sort 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:25.879 of stuff that that made us feel like they hated us. Yeah, 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:29.800 and then now to see something similar happen to you 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.680