1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Hey you everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: I'm Ben O'Brien, and today we are continuing our conversation 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: with conservationist, author and speaker Shane Mahoney. Now, if you 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: haven't listened to the first part of this UH two 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: part conversation, go back to last week's episode and listen 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: to it. If you need the crypt notes from that, 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: I'll give them to you here real quick. Shane and 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: I basically talked about the creation of the North American 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Wildlife Model, and we talked about his part in it, 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: and one of the main characters in that story is 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: Dr Valerius Geist, a mentor of Shane's who came up 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: with and codified the idea. Shane took the idea around 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: five years later on what he calls a road show 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: around two different state agencies different conferences to start speaking 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: about the model. As he spoke about the model, and 16 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 1: it became UH an exciting principle set of principles for 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: wildlife and wildlife managers. It started to grow when it 18 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: was officially articulated in two thousand one and and has 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: since become part of our hunting and Fishing conversation We 20 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: also started going over what are the seven core principles 21 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: of the model that are articulated by Geiston, later promoted 22 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: by Mahoney. We got through three of them. There are 23 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: seven of them. They're all intertwined, they all worked together, 24 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: but they are listed out in seven statements. The first 25 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: three statements we discussed were the first one is wildlife 26 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: as a public trust resource. Number two is the elimination 27 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: of game markets. Number three is allocation of wildlife by law. 28 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: And where you're gonna start this conversation, we'll be talking 29 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: about the fourth tenant of the North American model of 30 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: wildlife conservation. Wild life should only be killed for a 31 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: legitimate purpose. Of course, this one is a little bit controversial, 32 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: so it's good to start with this one. In this 33 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: episode we will cover the rest of the tenants and 34 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: the principles of the model and go back and look 35 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: at some of its criticisms in some of the ways 36 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: it will go forward. So hopefully this helps you um 37 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: as crib notes from the last conversation, But please listen 38 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: to both um and explore with us this model and 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: its importance. Enjoy because you break down this model, I 40 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: think these first three you're kind of like, yeah, pretty 41 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: much it. I would have I always would have been 42 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: like we could stop here, simplifies it. But you guys 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: kept going, and I think once you get to the end, 44 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: you start to start to realize kind of why the 45 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: next one is wildlife should only be killed for a 46 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: legitimate purpose. Um. And again this starts to to get 47 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: into um, fair chase and different things like that. So 48 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: take take us through this particular idea well again, you know, uh, 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: and we have to realize too that as those discussions 50 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: and debates were going on, I mean, we didn't have 51 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: all of the institutions and infrastructures for dialogue that we 52 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: have today. We couldn't go to you know, a huge 53 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: number of academics that were were knowledgeable in this particular domain. 54 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: We didn't have any who were. It didn't exist, The 55 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: programs didn't even exist. So it was really left to 56 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: a group of well intentioned, relentless citizens and the people 57 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: who were as open minded and most thinking about the 58 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: country in Congress, you know, to to really bring forward 59 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: these these rules and these laws legitimate legitimate purpose. You know, 60 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: hearkened back to the idea of no frivolous killing. For example, Um, 61 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, so it embedded certain principles of fair chase 62 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: and all of that. You didn't just uselessly kill an 63 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: animal and leave it to waste and so on and 64 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: so forth. Um. And it also got at the purpose 65 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: this excluded, of course, market hunting. That was not a 66 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: legitimate purpose any longer. Right, it is more of a 67 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: like a policy of it just exclusivity, it is. It's 68 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: more or less inclusive, like you can bait and come 69 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: over here, but it's more like, this is what we 70 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: don't this is what we don't want, this is what 71 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: we don't want. And ultimately what the legitimate purpose was, 72 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: of course was for food and defensive property. Uh, and 73 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: defense of personal safety obviously, so if you were attacked 74 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: by a mountain lion or you know, those things were 75 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: obviously viewed. Now, one of the great uh, you know, 76 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: hairs in the soup with regard to the model that 77 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: keeps getting raised is of course uh. And we had 78 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: to deal with this in the book, but I've had 79 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: to deal with it in many debates, was the fur trade. 80 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: While these principles were would ideally have applied to all wildlife, 81 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: it is clear that this particular one legitimate purpo has 82 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: not always been as easy to corral and define. The 83 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: fur trade was never really captured within any of the 84 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: more restrictive aspects of the model, because you could kill 85 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: an animal, you did not necessarily eat the animal. It 86 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: wasn't in defense of property or life or anything of 87 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: this nature. And then of course you you did it 88 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: for commercial reasons, you sold the pelt right. And many 89 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: people critics of the model have pointed this out, and 90 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 1: it is an accurate statement to make. The reason why 91 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: in my this is my view because it was never 92 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: articulated by Geist and never articulated in the writings of 93 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: the model. But but it's a reality, and my explanation 94 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: of it is this. The fur trade, first of all, 95 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: was something of very very long standing historical activity that, 96 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: by virtue of its longevity with the Native Americans initially, 97 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: and then by the fur trade in the fur trappers, 98 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: the Hudson Bay Company in the Northwest companies and so 99 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: on and so forth in both countries, clearly was sustainable. 100 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: There was no real indication that, with the exception of 101 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: a few species such as beaver that became a craze 102 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: for beaver hats in Europe, uh there were relatively few 103 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,799 Speaker 1: other classic examples of where wildlife continentally was being denuded 104 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: as a result of the trapping. Trapping also had a 105 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: this difference from rifle shooting, which of course was the 106 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: main way in which animals were being taken, rifles of 107 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: all kinds, punt guns all the way to you know, 108 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: car beans and so on. These these um uh, these 109 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: um instruments were deadly effective. You could sit on a 110 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: knoll and kill eighty bison, you know, at once. But 111 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: when you had to set individual traps in rivers or 112 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: along runways or things of this nature, there was a natural, 113 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: if you will break, there was a natural restriction on 114 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: overkill because there was only the methodology itself mistake. So 115 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: I think it was for those reasons, and the fact 116 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: of course that people still were relying heavily on furs 117 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: in many cases, particularly indigenous people such as Innuit and 118 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: so on and so forth, for basic necessity, that I think, Uh, 119 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: it wasn't that the fur trade, I believe was considered 120 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: and deliberately accepted. I just don't think that the fur 121 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: trade ever came in under the frenzied review that was 122 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: taking place, because it was about the bison that was 123 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: about the water, follows about the deer, you know, that 124 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And as a result of that, rightfully, 125 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: so people can say this basic principle of of legitimate 126 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: take did not apply directly to the fur trade, and 127 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: that remains to this case to this very day. So 128 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: is it is it is accepted? Yes? Was it deliberately accepted? No? 129 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: Was there reasons why it might have been accepted? I 130 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: think so? And there they are. What's also interesting, however, 131 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: about this sort of you know, this whole idea of 132 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: of commercial use and legitimate take, where that has also 133 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: fallen down. And again it is for reasons that one 134 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: can discover and perhaps understand, depending on one's position. Has 135 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: to do with reptiles and amphibians. Now, we all know 136 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: that it is quite common to go into pet stores 137 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: and buy a small lizard or a small frog or 138 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: something of this nature, or to capture yourself in the 139 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: wild and bring it home and create a little home 140 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: for it or a cage and keep that animal. Under 141 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: those circumstances, when you think about it, there is just 142 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: absolutely no way that anyone will be able to go 143 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: and purchas a caribou and have them in their backyard 144 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: and have them as their pet or right. People don't 145 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: think about this, right, but I think about it. Uh, 146 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: and uh I think it now. But you see what 147 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it's completely different and in today's world and 148 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: with our broadened view of the importance of all of 149 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: nature and how the pieces work together. Uh, we are 150 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: confronted by this difference. We referenced this in the book too. 151 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: I have an article that I wrote that deals with 152 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: this issue in the book. We are confronted by this difference, 153 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: and we must accept that the model principles may in 154 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: the main be correct and good and maybe totally beyond 155 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: reproach in a sense. Uh, it doesn't mean that there 156 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: aren't other issues occurring in North American conservation that we 157 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: shouldn't look at. I don't necessarily really accept the argument 158 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: of that as a failure of the model so much 159 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: as I say, we can look to the model to 160 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 1: improve that circumstance as well. Sure, sure, yeah, I think 161 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: this is a huge part. I think as we get 162 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: going through these tenants, I mean, it's kind of a 163 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: cascading effect of they're almost less universal with each step down. 164 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: And you have to remember that when these principles were 165 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: first articulated by by Valerious Geist. I was three years old, 166 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: there was yeah, and there was no way to find them. Yeah. Right, 167 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: So this architecture that he drew out of the history 168 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: is pretty remarkable when you think about it, when you're 169 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: starting from nothing. This is Yes, I think there's you know, 170 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: the way that they are intertwined, in the way that 171 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: they play against each other, in the way that they 172 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: kind of the question the questions are raised by number 173 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: four are answered by number two, and so masterful in 174 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: the way that those are integrated and not And there's 175 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: no way that ideas this broader, this complicated could go 176 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: without challenge. I mean, that's just I'm sure you've over 177 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: the years been challenged on many of these ideas, but 178 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: I think this one is where it gets the harriest. 179 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: I mean legitimate purposes, you know, a very interesting idea 180 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: of exactly what do you include inside of that legitimate 181 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: purpose bubble? And I think we yeah, you know, in 182 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: my experience in the hunting community, we uh, we shift 183 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: that around all the time. We move it around all 184 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: the time. Um. I can think of Farrell Hawgs being 185 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: an example of one way that we've shifted it about 186 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: you know, we've said, we've kind of uh, we've declared 187 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: them to be an issue a while, what's they are? 188 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: But when you transfer that to the hunting community, it's 189 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: like the gloves are off. Now this is there's depredation 190 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: involved here. The gloves are off. We can kill him 191 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: anyway we want because the legitimate purpose is there. So 192 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: now we can shoot him with grenade launchers or whatever, 193 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: you know, whatever we want. So then that goes back 194 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: to fair chase, and you start to get tangled in 195 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: this fairly messy ethical conundrum, um, with the killing of 196 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: an animal. Well, and from the opposite side of you, 197 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: if someone is philosophically opposed to hunting, they have every right, 198 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: of course and and would be expected to question that 199 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: adjective legitimate. You know, I don't think legitimacy includes, for example, hunting, 200 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: or I don't think that legitimacy includes this kind of 201 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: hunting or whatever it might be. Um. In other words, um, 202 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: and this is playing out of course in the debates 203 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: because it's not necessarily framed as Okay, I'm now referring 204 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: to principle for the North American model, But this whole 205 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: debate that is ongoing in society about what kinds of 206 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: hunting people support. So meat hunting is way up there, 207 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: sort yeah, when we get down the sport and trophy 208 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, and all of a sudden, 209 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: the the value proposition changes and people are less and 210 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: less and less supportive. So but again, as a principle, 211 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: to say that wildlife must be taken can only be 212 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: taken for legitimate purpose, that is an incredible principle to have. 213 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: It's an infallible beginning, Like it's invalible place to begin. 214 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: Imagine didn't right, it could be taking for any purpose. 215 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: Imagine just said, ah, fuck it, yeah, number five. All 216 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: this so it's too complicated, but it does go down 217 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: to I think maybe where it begins or ends. I 218 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: don't know where, whether this book, where this book ends. 219 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: To me, it's kind of like, what is the animals value? 220 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: Is it value for its own sake or is it 221 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: valuable for the sake of us? Right? So I think 222 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: that's I think that's where a lot of folks are challenging. 223 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: You know, I've been challenged recently by some vegans and 224 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: some folks about that, like, is an animal valuable for 225 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: your sake or for its in its own individu dsual 226 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: you know, being and cannot be both? Can it be both? Yes? 227 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: Can it be both? And in this case it is both. 228 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: It is at the same time, which I think is 229 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: where a lot of people get. You get a little 230 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,719 Speaker 1: bit confused. You you still run into that a good bit. 231 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: I mean you're oh yeah, I mean you know people, 232 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: you know I I speak to audiences that include a 233 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: lot of people who don't hunt. And I also have 234 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: spoken to audiences and have colleagues who are you know, 235 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: quite you know, quite purposefully and quite seriously opposed to 236 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: the hunting of wildlife. And um, you know, my worldview 237 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: has never made it difficult for difficult for me to 238 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: understand them, and as a consequence, it has never made 239 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: it difficult for me to discuss with them. Um. And 240 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, we only have about four and a half 241 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: percent of people in this country who hunt. So there's 242 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people who may not be unsupportive, but 243 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: are certainly not doing in it. And they're not doing 244 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: it for reasons. They may not be doing it. In 245 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: some cases it maybe all these impediments we talk about, 246 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: you know, the difficulty, the cost, the access, But that's 247 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: not what's stopping a lot of people from hunting. Even 248 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: the people who are not opposed to it, they don't 249 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: want to do it. And a big part of the 250 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: reason why they don't want to do it is they 251 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: don't want to take the life of a living animal. 252 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: They and they're not all, you know, silly people who 253 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: don't know where meat comes from, or any of those 254 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: kinds of silly. And I would challenge anyone listening to 255 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: this the people that don't you're silly. Then most of 256 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,359 Speaker 1: people in your life are silly well, of course, and 257 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: the last vast majority of the nation is silly, you know. So, 258 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that this question of whether the 259 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: animal has value in and of itself and or value 260 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: to us, my answer to that question is, of course 261 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: has both. And it has both value in and of 262 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: itself because it has beauty, because it has inspiration, because 263 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: it has life, because it is capable of reproduction. I mean, 264 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: I can go through a long list of why I 265 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: think it has value in and of itself. Um, but 266 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: I can also come up with a long list of 267 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: things that's why it has value to me, and many 268 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: of those values are not embedded with its death. It 269 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: has values to me is something that inspires me, that 270 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: enriches my life, that I want to look at and 271 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: examine and talk about and wonder about um. And yes, 272 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: there are points at which it can be a part 273 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: of the very food chain that I am involved in 274 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: as an omnivore and often is. But that doesn't mean 275 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: that that last one that I mentioned. The actual food 276 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: value is necessarily on the scale of things so important 277 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: that all those other values are minimal by any means. 278 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: You know, as I was telling combody in a long 279 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: conversation two nights ago, we got talking about this idea 280 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: and relationships with animals, which is something of course, which 281 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: has been a profound part of my thinking in life forever. 282 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: You know. We just think about your pets, and I 283 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: think in particular about cats. Dogs we known a little 284 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: bit more predictable fashion because we train them essentially to 285 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: be and and bred them to be essentially, and theotonized 286 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: their puppies forever. I mean, that's what we did in 287 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: the breeding of the wolf. We created the puppy forever. 288 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: In the domestic dog. That's not normal, but it's a 289 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: beautiful thing. But our cats are different. Our cats are 290 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: basically kind of you know, largely indifferent to us. Um. 291 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: And yet as I was explaining, you know, you sit 292 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: in a room in your home, you like the fire 293 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: in the fireplace, and you sit down in an evening, 294 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: and um, we have two cats and and Butler, and 295 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: inevitably one of us is going to say, where's Butler, 296 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: where's Anna? And of course if you don't find them 297 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: right away, or they don't come into the room, then 298 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:06,959 Speaker 1: you go looking for them. You know, you find them 299 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: in the closet, you find them on the you know, 300 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: wherever they're sleeping and on a radiator or whatever they're doing. 301 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: And then you're kind of satisfied you go back again. 302 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: It's like I told a group of people at a 303 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: table the other night, no one ever asks where Shane 304 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 1: if I'm not in the room. You know, we we 305 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: live with these animals for fourteen, fifteen, twenty years. Every 306 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: time they come into a room, we have to look 307 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: at them. We watched them get up on a table. 308 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: We watched them groom themselves. They don't look at us. 309 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: They just go come into the room and they choose 310 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: their spot and they get up and they rest there. 311 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: We watched them constantly whatever they're doing, and even when 312 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: we're having a conversation, we're over looking at you know, 313 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: the animal with his paw over the table, you know, 314 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: relaxing in the firelights and so on. I mean, they 315 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: just write so that value in wild things. And it's 316 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: like I said at the at the bear uh discussion, 317 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: the group discussion of the grizzly bear last night, some 318 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: of them have even greater power to enthrall. You can 319 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: be on the land in a boreal or subarctic system, 320 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: and in this landscape here and see elk, and see 321 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: mule ear, and see eagles or ospreys flying, and see 322 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: jay's and you know, you might see grouse, but see 323 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: a grizzly bear and something different happens. See a black bear, 324 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: even something different happens. But see a grizzly bear, something 325 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: different happens. So those animals have these kinds of elevators 326 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: of fascination and elevators of relevance to So, yes, they 327 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: do have values in and of themselves. Absolutely they do. 328 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: And they do have values for human beings at many levels, 329 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: one of the most basic and profound of which, of 330 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,479 Speaker 1: course is as a source of food. Yeah, and I 331 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: think as we get down into these ten it's UM. 332 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: Some of them, this one in particular, UM is more purposeful. Well, 333 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: I guess maybe not that more valuable for the questions 334 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: that it raises than than possibly like it's prescription. It's 335 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's tangible prescription, right, I mean, it's 336 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: more like we were saying before, it's more valuable for 337 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: that reason, I think, UM, because it raises this very 338 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: important question that we can continue to refine as as 339 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: time goes on, as the basis of the model, and 340 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: it's a living thing, the model. It's never meant I 341 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: was gonna say. And I feel like some of the 342 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: criticism that I've read in the past is like, well, 343 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't address this, Well, okay, how can one model 344 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: address hundreds of years and generations of complex issues? It 345 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: can't it, But at some level it exists to raise 346 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: a very important question. Allow us to hammer away at it. 347 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it has to and and people need to understand. 348 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: Which is the value of my translating this history because 349 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: out of side a side of myself and Velgeist, no 350 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: one knows this history. I uve you, no one, Yeah, 351 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: I I know that, UM. And that makes a difference 352 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: because when he when he first articulated it, and when 353 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: we first scrutinized it, to think about it. It was 354 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: not done to say this is the BNN and all 355 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: and you can't touch anything here. It was said in 356 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: in in defense of our system that was being threatened 357 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: seriously by something which we now know is seriously threatened 358 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: and has seriously threatened it so longer conjectural that he 359 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: had to throw up and show that there was something real, 360 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: and he did an amazing job. Now, some of the 361 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: criticisms therefore sort of for some reason sense that this 362 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: is it and it can't be discussed and it can't 363 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: be challenged. That was never ever the thought. And secondly, 364 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: he used the word principles to describe these things. Now, 365 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: he could have chosen many words, and I don't know 366 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: if he went through hours of angst over what word 367 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: to use, but he chose principles. Many of the things 368 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: that people say are not in there, Like, for example, 369 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: people have often said to me, there's nothing in there 370 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: about the funding. That's a principle. No, not, in my opinion, 371 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: that is a mechanism. Oh there's nothing in there about habitat. Well, 372 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: that's not really a principle. That is a mechanism that 373 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,479 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, we don't have something in there 374 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: about population either. So in some cases people too don't 375 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: look at these things. I guess in the way that 376 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: I did when I first met them, and in the 377 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: way that geist has meant them. We wanted these things 378 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: to be kind of like ideals really, you know, like 379 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, and you can debate them and you can 380 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: touch them. But in the main we're probably mostly going 381 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: to fall back into agreement. We don't want commercial use 382 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: of while we do want public ownership, you know those 383 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: you want them to be a legitimate take. We just 384 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: do we we can. You can beat me up all 385 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 1: day one about what faith or whether should run dogs 386 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: or whether you should you know. That's that's the beauty 387 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: of what fair chase. That opens up right, It's kind 388 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: of like we want fair chase. Let's then go to 389 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: another area and discuss that, like we don't. We're not 390 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: going to discuss that in this context, whether we want it, 391 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: whether we do want we do want it, but whether 392 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: whether how it takes shape exactly um is going to 393 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: all I would say always be an odds as we 394 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: change as humans, and some people have said to in 395 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: criticisms I remember this very well from a particularly aggressive 396 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: individual in more audience. One time he just was relentless. 397 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: He wouldn't let go, you know, was that, you know, 398 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: these these ideas didn't have like a pile of sub 399 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: bullets that you know, spelled out everything. And I said, 400 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: it's exactly why. I mean, no, that was deliberately not done, 401 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: because first of all, that's meant to be a societal 402 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: I lock um. And secondly, nobody can really write it 403 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: down and and do justice to it without this broader 404 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: discussion of what's taking place, right just not that's huge. 405 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: And I think this, you know, as we go through 406 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: this one every time I come to him like this 407 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: is the one, you know, being kind of in the middle. Um. 408 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: The next one is wildlife is considered an international resource. 409 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: Pheel like, we can go that pretty quickly. But give 410 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 1: us a rundown of that. Well, it's interesting some people, 411 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: uh you know, a recent criticism of the of the model, 412 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: which I and a group of authors responded to, actually 413 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: had a comment that, well, I could agree with this 414 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: if the words some was in there, you know, I 415 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: mean right so here it is here it is. We 416 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: could do it if you said maybe, yeah, so anyway. 417 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: I mean, the point was, obviously and what was being 418 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: most thought about here were the big migratories species of 419 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: marine mammals, and the big migratory species on land, of 420 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: course were fundamentally the waterfowl and the shorebirds. And of 421 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: course we could hunt certain shorebirds like snipe and you know, 422 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: carlos and other things, and so it was these species 423 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: posed a particular challenge because often their breeding season or 424 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: their breeding location was not in the country, right, and 425 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: yet where they were hunted was in the country. And 426 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: it was very clear that you couldn't simply have a 427 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: blind eye to where they were breeding and a close 428 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: eye on them just being killed or vice versa. You 429 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: had to be watching both ends of this spectrum where 430 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: they fed in the winter, where they bred, and so on. 431 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: And so the waterfowl really became and the migratory, the 432 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: couradu reforms as we call them, the shorebirds, they really 433 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: drove you know, this kind of principle. But of course 434 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: it also helped interject the idea of transboundary species. You know, 435 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: animals living in northern Montana can cross over into the 436 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: Canadian side and vice versa, for example. But it was 437 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: fundamentally about those really migratory groups, and that principle, almost 438 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: more than any other, launched the most remarkable cooperative efforts 439 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: and did so between nations Canada and the United States 440 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: with the Migratory Gainberg Convention and Treaty and then the 441 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: North American Waterfowl Management Plan, a hundred years before virtually 442 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 1: any other part of the world ever thought about doing this, 443 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: which is now being picked up in Europe and in 444 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: Europe and African migrations and so on more in Europe, 445 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: given the proximity of these small countries. Absolutely, but this 446 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: was done and has led to of course an extraordinary 447 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: system of science and management and funding, and a funding mechanism, 448 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: by the way, which is also almost unbelievable, which sees 449 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: significant amounts of American dollars raised by Americans hunters and 450 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: sportsmen fundamentally sent north to Canada to be used for 451 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: the protection, management and improvement of the breeding sites for 452 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: these species up there. And we still have this unbroken 453 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,719 Speaker 1: continuous engagement of Canadian and American scientists and policy makers 454 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: and managements involved in this for this huge array of 455 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: species that fly along different flyways, different main corridors, which 456 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: it took decades and decades to to discover that are 457 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: managed independently by species by fly away in both countries. 458 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: It is probably it is unquestionably one of the most 459 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: remarkable efforts in wildlife conservation that the world has ever seen. 460 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: And it comes out of this idea, this principle that 461 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: guys mentions that while life is an international resource, and 462 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: the birds that may nest in our country become the 463 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: ones that feed you know, in another and vice versa. 464 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 1: It could be just said wildlife knows no boundaries. Yeah, 465 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: they don't know your political, geopolitical, but by saying it's 466 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: an international resource, it meant we had to take an 467 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: active role. Yes, it wasn't just a statement of the reality. 468 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: Does this this go to I cringe to ever bring 469 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: these kinds of things up. Does this go to, you know, 470 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: we build a wall around the southern border in this country. 471 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 1: That does fly in the face of this consummation principle, 472 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: or this principle in general. There's no question that building 473 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: a wall of any kind, such as being is contemplated, 474 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: will impact the movement of trans boundary and transnational species. 475 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: In this particular case, when we're dealing with the wall 476 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: with Mexico, so there's no question about that. Most of 477 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: the species affected, of course, will be Um. It won't 478 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: affect bird life, of course because for previous reasons. But 479 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: it's ctainly will affect all those things that are terrestrial. 480 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: And what the scale of that is and how many 481 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: species are involved, and what the ecological implications are for them, 482 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but there are experts, I'm sure who 483 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: know it very well. But there can be no doubt 484 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: that any time that we impair the natural movements of 485 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: wildlife populations, we often discover that there were very good 486 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: reasons why those movements were made, and that the sustainability 487 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: and viability of the populations, once interrupted is often re 488 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: creating some reactions we weren't anticipated. They're unintentional, of course. Yeah, um, 489 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: all right, I think that's a good one to just 490 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: We talk here a lot about the health of flyways, 491 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: and and we don't even as we talk about the 492 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: health of fly we don't even consider this type of idea. 493 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: We believe it's a flyway, and you know, ducks passed. 494 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: Ducks and geese and other other foul pass from Canada 495 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: and the United States, and in this flyway, we don't 496 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: ever consider that they've crossed this international boundary or subject 497 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: could could possibly be without this idea, subject too different 498 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: to completely different laws and regulations. I mean, just imagine 499 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: the absolute chaos that would have occurred if that was 500 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: the case. Yeah. No, it's something you know, if you're 501 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: a major well, I know guys that chase the migration. 502 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: They start in Saskatchewan and go all the way down 503 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: through um, Missouri and go all the way to Texas, 504 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: and they don't even you know, it's not thought of 505 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: in that way I think a lot of times. But 506 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: this is an important one to kind of bring that 507 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: home to people that if this this international resource isn't 508 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: an idea. Uh, there's a lot of species we we 509 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: truly care a lot about that would be you know, 510 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: um under under different types of scrutinies in different places. 511 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: It's there's another really interesting thing um about this that's 512 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: kind of a just kind of a cute or interesting story. 513 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: You know those flyways. Of course, now we have such 514 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: amazing technologies with GPS colors and you know, we can 515 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: figure out one of bird poops you know, and when 516 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: it pecks and you know, so um, but those flyways 517 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: were essentially delineated and accurately so as more advanced technologies 518 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: had proven by the use of these bands. Yeah, everyone 519 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: is familiar with these little metal bands that you would 520 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: put on birds. Yeah, And it's it's incredible to think 521 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: that you could take a simple technology like that and 522 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: over time, with massive efforts, you know, to to just 523 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: band as many birds as you could from different places 524 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: and then ask hunters, you know, please send your band 525 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: back to you know, sides and side uh. And then 526 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: people could take all of those and over time determine 527 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: where those birds were moving based on where they were 528 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: banded when they were breeding versus where they were harvested 529 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: or vice versa, where they were banded on their wintering 530 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: grounds and where they were harvested. I mean, it's always 531 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: seemed to me you look at the size of this 532 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,479 Speaker 1: continent and the number of birds that are moving, and 533 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: yet we figured those things out and there are flyways 534 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: like it's not like it's just everywhere, right uh. And 535 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: that was discovered by the people who launched that incredibly 536 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: simple thing and then just asked hunters and others if 537 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: they found it dead, doctor Goose, please send this back, 538 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: you know to what Washington d C. Office of such 539 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: and such, And of course there's all the funny stories 540 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: that I've seen them myself, like some waterfowl hunters would 541 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: gather them up, they wear them on. The next is 542 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: I mean you'd go into some Newfoundland houses and you know, 543 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: up on the kitchen window there. I mean, if you 544 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: should have banded bird that is. I mean there's whole 545 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: waterfowl brands that are just banded this and banded that, 546 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: jewelry this trough that, and it's interesting that it all 547 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: came from that. But I think that just goes back 548 00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: to our curiosity. Yeah, I think it's driven by curiosity 549 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: if I had to guess and are willingness to try to, um, 550 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, solve incredible problems with limited resources. Yeah, you know, 551 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: and that's a great case of doing it around their legs. 552 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: And can you imagine the first time Yeah, first time 553 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: that was thought up in a in a boardroom, told 554 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: that gentleman or lady that some guys be wearing it 555 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: around their neck. That would never happen. Um. Here's another 556 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: one that I read some papers that was recently challenged. 557 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: Not the idea, but the the way that's being carried 558 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: out is science is the proper tool for discharge of 559 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: wildlife policy. I think this one in terms of the 560 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: defense of this model to someone who doesn't hunt or 561 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: who would challenge it, I think this one probably is 562 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: the one that comes up the most often in my mind. Yeah. 563 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: I think the principle here, of course, is that you 564 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: cannot simply rely on anecdotal evidence and personal opinion as 565 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: the best way to move forward. Not because personal opinion 566 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: and experiential local knowledge may not be good, but simply 567 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: because wildlife being such vigile creatures by that mean, they 568 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: move so much, and they travel under such circumstances where 569 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: they are hard to scrutinize, and we often for years 570 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 1: and decades didn't know where breeding locations were or wintering 571 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: locations were, and so on. And because the resource was 572 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: going to be continued to be utilized, that there had 573 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: to be an independent, not just a knowledge base science, remember, 574 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: an independent way of bringing information to bear on the 575 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: conservation of wildlife. A lot of the criticism that you 576 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: that are focuses on this principle. It seems to me, really, 577 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: if you peel the layers of the onion back, it's 578 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: because people have a reluctance about science itself. Or feel 579 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: it's not accurate, or feel it doesn't agree with what 580 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: their own experiences have been, or things of this nature. 581 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: But the principle that you would have an objective body 582 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: of information to apply that would override the potential for 583 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 1: other information to influence decisions that might be motivated by 584 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: personal desire or political interest or whatever. That's really what 585 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: was being talked about here. I think the more legitimate 586 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 1: problem for this principle, but in fairness, is only one 587 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: that has really come to the fore of discussion and 588 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: conservation policy in the last three or four decades and 589 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: is rising a great deal more is the recognition that 590 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: we need to have more than what we call classic, 591 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: orthodox Western kind of science. In other words, I don't 592 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: think too many people would disagree that we need science, 593 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: but there are many people, including myself, who would argue 594 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: that what we need is science as well as local 595 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: knowledge as well as experiential knowledge. In other words, there's 596 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: many different kinds of knowledges that need to be integrated, 597 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: none of which should be the exclusive arbiter of decision. 598 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: Made you feel like science would be the culmination of 599 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: those things, or just one of the one of the features, 600 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: because you know I think it's probably important here to 601 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: define science like how it relates here, and to me, 602 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: it's this population studies like population dynamics, health of habitats 603 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: um another thing. I mean, there are other things. I'm 604 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: sure I'm missing there, But you know, how would you 605 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: define science within within this context? Well, I mean, I 606 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: think what's really important for people who are non scientists 607 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: to understand about science and what it's really important for 608 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: science scientists to express much more closely and not forget themselves. 609 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: And this came up in our discussions last night over 610 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: the Grizzly Bear. Science is not um. Science is not 611 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: simply you know, a different or better kind of knowledge. 612 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: Science is a way of seeing the world. Science is 613 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: a way of formulating information that can that is essentially objective. 614 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: It is it is tested within itself by metrics and 615 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: statistics and so on and so forth, and those outcomes 616 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,919 Speaker 1: become what make it believable or not believable or somewhat believable. 617 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 1: Science is also something that you have as a replicatble, 618 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: a replicable kind of knowledge base. That Okay, if I 619 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: say to Ben Ben, I believe there are a thousand 620 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: black ducks nesting in that particular area, and I know 621 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: that because I looked at them through this way. I 622 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: did these transacts, or I did photo surveys or whatever. 623 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: This is exactly how I did it. Ben should be 624 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: able to take those approaches, and he should be able 625 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: to independently of me, with no knowledge of me at all. 626 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: I could be fishing for sail fishing Florida while he's 627 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: doing this. Uh, he should be able to come up 628 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 1: with essentially something very very close. So what has happened is, 629 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: of course that over time science, initially as natural history, 630 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: which was a big thing in this country at the 631 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: time the North American Model's ideas were founded. Everybody was 632 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:49,240 Speaker 1: getting really interested in that gradually got you know, changed 633 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: and modified and refined, perhaps or rigorized into what we 634 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,879 Speaker 1: know as the scientific approaches of today that we use. 635 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: I mean, they have provided and any frmous amount of 636 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: information that extends across regions and distances that no human 637 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 1: being living in a local circumstance could ever hope to know. 638 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: Having said that, we also over time have seen a 639 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: number of glaring circumstances where science, classic science as we 640 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: are talking about here, and classic scientific information has proven 641 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,720 Speaker 1: itself to be wrong, inaccurate, and that the policies based 642 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: upon it were therefore in error. And more more importantly 643 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: and more relevantly to our discussion, there have also been 644 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: examples where not only has that happened, that science has 645 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 1: been inaccurate and it has failed, etcetera, etcetera, but at 646 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: the same time, experiential knowledge was being offered by knowledgeable 647 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 1: people that was ignored that proved to be accurate. The 648 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: one of the best known cases in the world, and 649 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: what I am intimately familiar with, is the collapse of 650 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: the massive aggregation of fish known as the Northern cod 651 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 1: off the east and northeast coast of the island of Newfoundland, 652 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,760 Speaker 1: which was fished for five centuries by virtually every nation 653 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: in the world that had sea going fisheries fleets, and 654 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: which eventually collapsed in nine and which despite any active fishing, 655 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 1: is now still only at a less than five percent 656 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: of its of its original biomass um In that particular circumstance, 657 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: the small boat inshore fishermen had for decades warned with 658 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: deep conviction and extraordinary frustration, that the science that was 659 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: being provided through research, vessel surveys and catch efforts from 660 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 1: the commercial fleets for whatever reason was wrong. They knew 661 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,760 Speaker 1: it was wrong. They had generations of experience of catching 662 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,280 Speaker 1: these fish, the sizes of fish, the amount of fish 663 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: they would catch, the influence of weather and tied and 664 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. In the graveyards of their 665 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,359 Speaker 1: homes were buried their grandfathers and their fathers and their 666 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: great grandfathers, and they're great great failds and they're great 667 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 1: great great grandfathers, etcetera. And they had all of this knowledge. 668 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: And ultimately what happened even after the last scientific assesspect 669 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: of the stocks said there could still be a commercial fishery. Essentially, 670 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: the commercial fleets were called back by the owners of 671 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: the companies because they could not pay for the very 672 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: gas that it was taking to mobilize these ships out 673 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 1: to to hunt these fish down. And so that too 674 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: is a reason why we should be cautious about the principle. 675 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: So I would say that, really, what would be, you know, 676 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: a more awesome articulation of that is that knowledge scholarship 677 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: and classic science, should you know, the best of it 678 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: should be applied to the decision. Yeah, yeah, I was reading. 679 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 1: I had to pull this paper up. I was reading it. Uh, 680 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: it's the hallmarks of science missing from North American wildlife management. 681 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: It was a study done UM by the American Association 682 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: of the Evansful Science, and they were challenging a little 683 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 1: bit of this UM obviously by the title, and they 684 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: did some surveys to to look at UM, state game 685 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 1: agencies and federal agencies to see exactly how they were 686 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: doing it. And they said, they said, UM, their framework 687 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: had four fundamental hallmarks of science, right, measurable objectives, evidence, transparency, 688 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: and independent review UM. And this study it seems like 689 00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: it might have had a predetermined outcome, but nonetheless they 690 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,799 Speaker 1: found it to be less than you know, less than 691 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: acceptable what was actually going on on the ground as 692 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: as as far as applied science and wildlife management. UM, 693 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: how do you feel about that? I mean, you know, 694 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: it's got to be true at some levels because of 695 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: the varying I mean, you know, the varying agencies and 696 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,720 Speaker 1: the varying places that this is happening. There's no way 697 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: that we've perfected it. It means impossible. We did respond 698 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,399 Speaker 1: to that paper, a group of us. We we we 699 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 1: wrote a written response and the authors wrote a written 700 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: response back to us, which is the normal kind of process. Um. 701 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,879 Speaker 1: First of all, Um, and somewhat to your point, if 702 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: you really want to examine the full role and influence 703 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:51,360 Speaker 1: that science has had on the conservation of North American wildlife, 704 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,439 Speaker 1: you're going to have to do a lot more than 705 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: examine the kinds of records that these people did, that 706 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:04,800 Speaker 1: these authors did know just the number of graduate students, 707 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: masters and PhD students. Yeah, just referred that they said 708 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: they tested those things and hunt management plans created by 709 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: sixty two U S state and Canadian provincial territory as 710 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: across six D sixty seven management systems, so that we're 711 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, expressed plans. Yeah. So, so just 712 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: let me finish the first thought. Um, there is this 713 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 1: massive escalation of science which has been borne out of 714 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: a dedication to making conservation the most professional and the 715 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 1: most um, the most objective as it can possibly be 716 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: measured under not only the growth of those graduate students, 717 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: but the institutions of learning and the multiplication of programs 718 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: and plans for the U S Geological Survey, Cooperative Wildlife 719 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: research units and academics working at hundreds and hundreds of 720 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: universities across Canada the United States. UM, we have seen 721 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 1: the application of science in brilliant format in things such 722 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: as the North American Waterfowl Management Plan, and in aspects 723 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: dealing with many many other recovery of wildlife species such 724 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: as eagles and various other species that at one time 725 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: were listed and recovered, in dealing with catastrophic events that 726 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: emerge that we did not predict, such as the d 727 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: DT crisis and the loss of species. So there have 728 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: been many large scale phenomenon that are lost in this 729 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: particular review, this specific issue dealing with hunted species and 730 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: the use of science in the development of management plans 731 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:47,800 Speaker 1: and their application. Certainly, it is true and will always 732 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,880 Speaker 1: remain true in my view that you will never be 733 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: able to have up to date current ongoing science, which 734 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 1: they do not define. But let's assume that means population surveys. 735 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: Let's assume that means radio coloring, efforts to tract home 736 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: ranges and range use and so on, habitat inventories in 737 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 1: terms of its quality and its abundance, and so on 738 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: and so forth. There was not enough money in the 739 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,760 Speaker 1: universe to be able to do this on an ongoing basis. 740 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: For every single species that's hunted in every single circumstance. However, 741 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,320 Speaker 1: that does not mean that science is not being used. 742 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 1: It may be a five year old survey which is 743 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,240 Speaker 1: the best they have of that kind, but the agency 744 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,240 Speaker 1: supports that information by examining current license sales or success 745 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 1: rates or something of this nature. So it would be 746 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: an ideal and wonderful world where for every species that's 747 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,359 Speaker 1: ever hunted in every province and in every state that 748 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,719 Speaker 1: you know, we had this total, in depth prescription. But 749 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 1: I would also say that while it is not possible, 750 00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 1: perhaps even though desirable, if it could be done, the 751 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:08,280 Speaker 1: hunted species on this continent have for a hundred years 752 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:14,600 Speaker 1: come through a pattern of deep loss to one of recovery, 753 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: escalation and continued sustainable use for a hundred years in 754 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 1: most cases. Of all the things we've said in this 755 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: at almost two hours, that is the thing anybody's listening 756 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,279 Speaker 1: to take away. That take that away, and and any 757 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: challenge just not that anything any of these things are infallible, 758 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,640 Speaker 1: but that is infallible, that idea that you just put out, Yes, 759 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,279 Speaker 1: this is true. I mean the species that are on 760 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: the endangered species listing in the main, in the vast 761 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 1: majority of cases, our species that are not actually targeted 762 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 1: by you know, millions of people who hunt and who 763 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,360 Speaker 1: fish in this country. It's just the opposite. But those 764 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: species that are hunted and fished were and would have 765 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: been on an Endangered Species Act if we'd had one, 766 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: And yet they were rescued in fact, out of that 767 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: abyss to the point where we have you know, four 768 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 1: to six million wild turkey when we only had a 769 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 1: couple of hundred thousand, to where we have you know, 770 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:21,720 Speaker 1: thirty million white tailed deer. Right, you know, that doesn't 771 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,600 Speaker 1: mean we don't have now approaching some real challenges. Caribou 772 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 1: in particular are in deep trouble, and we have on 773 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: the southern distribution of their range amazing problems developing for 774 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,719 Speaker 1: moose that may well be linked to climate change and 775 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,240 Speaker 1: tick infestations and warming temperatures and so on and so forth. 776 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: But so it's not free and it's not separate. But 777 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 1: I think that the I think that it is possible 778 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: in something as big as North American conservation for hunted 779 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: and non hunted species, my goodness, the numbers of them, 780 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,319 Speaker 1: and to go into any states, provinces or countries and 781 00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,160 Speaker 1: find that we're lacking what we might want look at 782 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: the amount of money it takes to closely monitor the 783 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:10,719 Speaker 1: greater Yellowstone ecosystem grizzly bear population just one species, and 784 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,440 Speaker 1: imagine and ask yourself where would the money come from 785 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 1: if we were trying to do or needed to do 786 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: or could do that with every species. Yeah, we wouldn't know. 787 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,320 Speaker 1: These animals are valued with us, but they're not that valuable. 788 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: I mean, they are of importance, but not not to 789 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,319 Speaker 1: that level. And this argument, by the way, you know, 790 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: it's relatives of this argument that was positive by the 791 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,719 Speaker 1: authors there does show up in other debates and some 792 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,160 Speaker 1: of the listing and delisting of grizzly bearris is again 793 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: relevant of course, because in many cases that were there 794 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,720 Speaker 1: were questions of science that lead to a real listing 795 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 1: of species and so on, like there might have been 796 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,319 Speaker 1: inadequate science and genetic connectivity or you know, recovery of 797 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,920 Speaker 1: satellite populations or whatever. Right, So this this notion crea 798 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: in and it's important for society to realize that, um, 799 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, we cannot always await effective solutions, um until 800 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:22,440 Speaker 1: we get the perfect knowledge base. We had no perfect 801 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,799 Speaker 1: knowledge base. We virtually had no knowledge base at all, 802 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,799 Speaker 1: except we had a disastrous loss. That's about our only 803 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,520 Speaker 1: database we had at the turn of the twentieth century. 804 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,400 Speaker 1: But we launched a recovery for those wildlife species that 805 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:40,759 Speaker 1: is absolutely phenomenal. So you know, sometimes we can do 806 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,480 Speaker 1: good things even when our knowledge is imperfect if we 807 00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 1: have the right motivations and clear thinking. Yeah, do you 808 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,719 Speaker 1: feel like the last point around this, I'd like to 809 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:54,239 Speaker 1: coverage do you feel like our ability to And it's 810 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,319 Speaker 1: a huge point to say that we have the we 811 00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:01,120 Speaker 1: have the innate ability to recover and sustain populations that 812 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,839 Speaker 1: we value in a sense that we like to kill 813 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: them and eat them, or you know, we value for 814 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,360 Speaker 1: that reason. Right to go back to the value system 815 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,560 Speaker 1: like that we have. It's an ability to to take 816 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 1: care of animals that we have value for rather than 817 00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,239 Speaker 1: they're just their value on its own. And I feel 818 00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 1: like the beauty of all this is that, you know, 819 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,480 Speaker 1: the moose, for example, has value to a lot of 820 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: people that don't hunt it, but it has increased value 821 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,360 Speaker 1: to people that do, and those are the people that 822 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,919 Speaker 1: take I feel like the most handsled approach with keeping 823 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,080 Speaker 1: them around and keeping them sustainable. Um, But I think 824 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,799 Speaker 1: the question here is how do we how does this 825 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:35,879 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure if this has ever been I'm 826 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: sure this has been challenged, but I've never read it. Um, 827 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,400 Speaker 1: the like the non consumptive species, how do they play 828 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,520 Speaker 1: into into this? And I know I know your opinion 829 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,640 Speaker 1: this because we've talked about it, But can you just articulate, 830 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,759 Speaker 1: you know, how you feel about, um, the songbird or 831 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: the not you know, just any particular non consumptive species, 832 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,480 Speaker 1: if that's the right term to use, how that that 833 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,399 Speaker 1: falls into this whole process us and how we've done 834 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:06,359 Speaker 1: and including it in it. Well, I think there's, um, 835 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:14,239 Speaker 1: there's probably two, as I view it, two major legitimate 836 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:20,399 Speaker 1: weaknesses in the North American model as it has been 837 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:25,200 Speaker 1: articulated and described and as we're discussing it today. Um. 838 00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,759 Speaker 1: With regard to the principles that have been articulated, I 839 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:34,520 Speaker 1: think it's more a matter of discussing particular aspects or 840 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:42,880 Speaker 1: the stretch, you know that the resilience and expansiveness that 841 00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:47,560 Speaker 1: they have, and how we should apply them, and but 842 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,919 Speaker 1: their value in their own sense. In other words, all 843 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:55,799 Speaker 1: of those principles should have been there. But there are 844 00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:00,400 Speaker 1: two that I think are more fundamental and I and 845 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 1: I know why this really we're not articulated at the time, 846 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,840 Speaker 1: because again the model's initial construct was in reaction to 847 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:13,920 Speaker 1: the circumstance we covered earlier in the podcast. But it 848 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:22,760 Speaker 1: is impossible to talk about I think, principles and hopes 849 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: and visions for North American conservation and have such an 850 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:39,760 Speaker 1: overwhelming emphasis on hunted species, which, as we talked about 851 00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 1: with regard to owning reptiles or amphibians, freights with at 852 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 1: certain real differences that play out. Um. I think you know, 853 00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,400 Speaker 1: we have all come to recognize that concern for the 854 00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:02,640 Speaker 1: natural world to be effective, must see it as all 855 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:08,239 Speaker 1: those moving parts. And as Leopold said, um, you know, 856 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,439 Speaker 1: the the first lesson in tinkering is you you keep 857 00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,280 Speaker 1: all the parts right. You know that they all matter, 858 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,160 Speaker 1: the tiny washer, the tiny nut, the little screw, the spring. 859 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: And uh. I think that we need to do a 860 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:29,600 Speaker 1: much better job of speaking for those species than we have. 861 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 1: And I have extolled the hunting community for twenty five 862 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,120 Speaker 1: years to do this, not so much in the light 863 00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,319 Speaker 1: of it being a weakness of the model, but just 864 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:44,359 Speaker 1: because I happen to personally believe that this is right 865 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,480 Speaker 1: and correct, and that because the hunting movement was so 866 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,400 Speaker 1: well organized and relatively well funded and has so many 867 00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,880 Speaker 1: NGOs and raises so much money that we were in 868 00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,880 Speaker 1: a position to do far more for the rest of 869 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,400 Speaker 1: nature than we did. And I also thought that it 870 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,319 Speaker 1: was of a practical nature that, you know, some of 871 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,640 Speaker 1: the criticisms we got for being so biased in our 872 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:16,000 Speaker 1: our efforts and our focus was entirely legitimate and would 873 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,200 Speaker 1: eventually be part of the thing that would undermine hunting 874 00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,880 Speaker 1: in Canada in the United States. And I remain convinced 875 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,680 Speaker 1: to this day that, along with our marriage with television, 876 00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 1: that the failure of the hunting community to speak out 877 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,600 Speaker 1: about any creature except those that are hunted has created 878 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:43,360 Speaker 1: a subtle, lasting, very difficult to expunge impression in the 879 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:48,279 Speaker 1: broad conscience of society, and it is going to take 880 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,680 Speaker 1: us along time to address this. One of the things 881 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,880 Speaker 1: I have recommended for decades to hunting based NGOs is 882 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,600 Speaker 1: that there a lot a significant percentage of or budgets 883 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:06,759 Speaker 1: to non hunted species conservation efforts. I suggest it could 884 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,239 Speaker 1: be ten, it could be thirty. You know, I think 885 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,080 Speaker 1: the more important issue is not the number of The 886 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,920 Speaker 1: more important issue is a deliberate decision to do it. 887 00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,400 Speaker 1: I don't know why they won't do it, but I 888 00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,920 Speaker 1: know none of them will. Um. And imagine you could 889 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,440 Speaker 1: just file the money there, couldn't you? You could, but 890 00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,080 Speaker 1: they but I know that. I mean, I'm close enough 891 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:27,600 Speaker 1: to most of them to know at least the ones 892 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 1: I've asked for haven't done it. Um. And that doesn't 893 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,600 Speaker 1: mean no one is doing it, of course, but even 894 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,160 Speaker 1: if they are, it's very small scale. Yeah, it's it's 895 00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,400 Speaker 1: almost no. I mean, I've never found any evidence of 896 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,560 Speaker 1: it other than like, oh, well, when we do the 897 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,359 Speaker 1: turkey habitat, it's good for the like you weren't doing it. 898 00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,120 Speaker 1: That wasn't the purpose of action. So that's and and 899 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,680 Speaker 1: some of the species, like even if people wanted to 900 00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:52,880 Speaker 1: think about this strategically to invest money, for example, in 901 00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:57,560 Speaker 1: sea turtle rescue, to invest money in efforts to safeguard 902 00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:03,320 Speaker 1: mountain gorillas or chimpanzees, um, dolphins, what I mean, penguins. 903 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,560 Speaker 1: You know, there are some really high profile, iconic species 904 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:11,680 Speaker 1: that children in particular love, and if you just wanted 905 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,520 Speaker 1: to even be smart about your own future, you might 906 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 1: want to think about doing this. But they don't get that. 907 00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,800 Speaker 1: They really don't get that. Believe me. Man, they don't 908 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,320 Speaker 1: get that, and that is a source of enormous frustration 909 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:29,640 Speaker 1: to me. And um, so it's in line with that 910 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,480 Speaker 1: kind of weakness in the model. I think, yes, we 911 00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,000 Speaker 1: did a great job with the hunted species. There is 912 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,640 Speaker 1: no question, the evidence is there. But we have hundreds 913 00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,120 Speaker 1: of species Encounada in the United States that are listed 914 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,280 Speaker 1: as threatened and endangered. We even allowed iconic species like 915 00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,200 Speaker 1: the osprey and like the peregrine and like the bald eagle. 916 00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,560 Speaker 1: I mean we sat by and watched this. What hunting 917 00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,439 Speaker 1: organization ever raised its head in these And if they're 918 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,320 Speaker 1: really going to pat ourselves in the back over and 919 00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,760 Speaker 1: over and over again for the things we have done, 920 00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,680 Speaker 1: like what about the things we will do or could 921 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,520 Speaker 1: do that in this case? And I think this is 922 00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,920 Speaker 1: where I'm coming through. I will predict that if the 923 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,120 Speaker 1: hunting community does not soon begin to do a number 924 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:19,280 Speaker 1: of really significant things, one of which is this, I 925 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,960 Speaker 1: think we're going to be shocked by the future declines 926 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,320 Speaker 1: in this activity. And we have already We're going down fast. 927 00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,320 Speaker 1: We had almost forty million hunters in this country in 928 00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,479 Speaker 1: We've got twelve million today. The next survey will show 929 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,800 Speaker 1: we've got about ten maybe eleven. However, so that's one 930 00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:38,600 Speaker 1: of the bios one of the things that I think 931 00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:40,680 Speaker 1: is vacant from the model that I think is a 932 00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,600 Speaker 1: serious issue. The other one that I feel really strongly 933 00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:50,439 Speaker 1: about and which is something that preoccupies me a great deal. 934 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,120 Speaker 1: I also, you know, spent a lot of time in 935 00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,280 Speaker 1: this literature, and as a matter of fact, even with 936 00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,479 Speaker 1: me on this trip, I've just finished an other book, 937 00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,080 Speaker 1: keep saying I won't read any more of them. But 938 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:10,320 Speaker 1: it has to do with Native Americans. Um at the 939 00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:15,480 Speaker 1: broadest scale, we know the injustices that took place, and 940 00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:19,080 Speaker 1: we need not be labored here. But the truth of 941 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,840 Speaker 1: the matter was that there was a North American model 942 00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:30,600 Speaker 1: of sustainable use and conservation to some extent, ongoing in 943 00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:37,400 Speaker 1: on this continent by a huge diversity of people's who 944 00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:42,280 Speaker 1: had capacities and knowledge of the natural world that I 945 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:47,000 Speaker 1: would suggest far surpasses probably that of almost anyone living today, 946 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:54,760 Speaker 1: and they actively shape the continent. They were not passive 947 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,480 Speaker 1: engagers in it. In other words, it wasn't as though 948 00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:04,280 Speaker 1: they didn't have management interventions prescribed fire being about amongst 949 01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,480 Speaker 1: the most important that they used on a traditional basis 950 01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:12,560 Speaker 1: in various parts of the country. They strongly influenced the 951 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,640 Speaker 1: dynamic of species, both good and bad. They may have 952 01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,400 Speaker 1: played a major role initially in the decline of the 953 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:23,040 Speaker 1: megafauna on this continent. They were responsible in many ways 954 01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,560 Speaker 1: through habitat manipulation and through hunting in terms of, you know, 955 01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:31,560 Speaker 1: the local abundances of certain species, as we know from 956 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,680 Speaker 1: the Lewis and Clark journals and so on and so forth, 957 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:39,480 Speaker 1: how effective the native communities, the native people's communities could 958 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:43,400 Speaker 1: be in that regard. They had created enormous you know, 959 01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:48,840 Speaker 1: appreciation for those resources and looked upon them as things 960 01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:52,360 Speaker 1: they constantly needed to give thanks for through their dances 961 01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:57,120 Speaker 1: and their tribal feasts and so on and so forth. Um, 962 01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,960 Speaker 1: they had, in other words, and an intimate connection with 963 01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,520 Speaker 1: nature that transcended not just the hunting and of species 964 01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:11,240 Speaker 1: for food and other materials, but their ideas of you know, 965 01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:15,600 Speaker 1: medicinal plants, how essentially to live off the land under 966 01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:22,800 Speaker 1: extraordinary circumstances. And I have always felt that, um, you know, 967 01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:29,520 Speaker 1: we needed to not so much say that the model 968 01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:33,560 Speaker 1: as we are using it today it was borrowed from, 969 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,640 Speaker 1: or influenced by and all of that, because probably it 970 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:43,120 Speaker 1: was not, but much of our early knowledge of how 971 01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,000 Speaker 1: to capture these animals, how to kill these animals, how 972 01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:49,200 Speaker 1: to hunt these animals, where they were, how they distributed 973 01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,960 Speaker 1: them themselves, and so on, were actually learned by frontier 974 01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:57,840 Speaker 1: movers from those indigenous and those native peoples. And it 975 01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:03,080 Speaker 1: seems to me that to talk about a North American 976 01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:11,080 Speaker 1: model of wildlife conservation and to have a total silence on, 977 01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:16,640 Speaker 1: you know, the fourteen or fifteen and maybe longer thousand 978 01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,919 Speaker 1: year history of people's who were here and lived with, 979 01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:27,520 Speaker 1: depended upon and utilized and managed and did not destroy, 980 01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:33,000 Speaker 1: but sustainably utilized for that period, that longer period of time, 981 01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:37,360 Speaker 1: the living resources of the continent. That does seem to 982 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,960 Speaker 1: me to be something that we need to address. I 983 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,360 Speaker 1: don't mean as a principle of the model or anything 984 01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:47,400 Speaker 1: of necessarily at least to inform but as a context 985 01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:49,960 Speaker 1: and as an informant those I think are the really 986 01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,600 Speaker 1: larger issues. Yeah, I mean, if we would take this, 987 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:54,840 Speaker 1: I mean, how far would you take this model back 988 01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:56,880 Speaker 1: as far as how it is informed, I mean to 989 01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,080 Speaker 1: the eighteen sixties is as far as you might go back. 990 01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:00,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you can go further than that. I mean, 991 01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:04,640 Speaker 1: could you call it, you know, two hundred years would 992 01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,800 Speaker 1: be stretching it, you know, I mean, so I think 993 01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:08,720 Speaker 1: you're right about that. I mean, I think the real 994 01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:13,400 Speaker 1: you know, some of the some of the thinking started 995 01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:18,240 Speaker 1: to emerge in the early part of the nineteenth century, 996 01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,160 Speaker 1: but of course, like most other things, a lot was 997 01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:25,320 Speaker 1: set back with the Civil War in the country and 998 01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:29,360 Speaker 1: even those kinds of thought patterns. I mean, after all, Catlin, 999 01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:33,640 Speaker 1: the famous ethnographer of Native Americans and you know, painter 1000 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,920 Speaker 1: and so on. I mean, he had recommended in the 1001 01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:43,720 Speaker 1: eighteen thirties that America designate what he called a Nation's Park, 1002 01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,320 Speaker 1: not a national nation, Nations Park, that's what he called it, 1003 01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:51,320 Speaker 1: which would be set aside in the American Central Plains 1004 01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:56,960 Speaker 1: in west where there were no European settlers anyway at 1005 01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:01,479 Speaker 1: that time. Uh, for the benefit of nature and for 1006 01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,720 Speaker 1: the Red Men, for the Native Americans that were there. 1007 01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:11,080 Speaker 1: So there, you know, this thinking was going on, um 1008 01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,800 Speaker 1: and you know, you leap fifty years, forty years ahead 1009 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:16,920 Speaker 1: of that, and you know, you come to all of 1010 01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,479 Speaker 1: a sudden there's a Yellowstone idea, and then ten years 1011 01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:22,600 Speaker 1: after that there's a Boon and crocod idea and so 1012 01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:25,120 Speaker 1: and so. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, if if 1013 01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:27,440 Speaker 1: you're if you're gonna look at roughly, you know, if 1014 01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:29,920 Speaker 1: you're being kind here two hundred years of our history, 1015 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,520 Speaker 1: why would you not look at the preceding fifteen hundred 1016 01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,400 Speaker 1: uh and and and again. And from the time when 1017 01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,280 Speaker 1: these people's crossed the land bridge to the time that 1018 01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,720 Speaker 1: we found them, you would say that they're the wildlife 1019 01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:43,840 Speaker 1: was from every report I've ever read, I'm sure you're 1020 01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:47,760 Speaker 1: the saying wildlife was plentiful in all kinds. Yeah, there 1021 01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,000 Speaker 1: were some exceptions where you had high densities of native 1022 01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:54,680 Speaker 1: people's in the local environments, as you know always happens. 1023 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,120 Speaker 1: And it's not to say, oh, they were the perfect conservationists, 1024 01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:00,760 Speaker 1: you know, that's kind of neo Colonius attitude, you know, 1025 01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, revisionist colonials that No, it's not to say that, 1026 01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,960 Speaker 1: but I say one of the things that people will 1027 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:10,800 Speaker 1: find in the new book is an amazing opening chapter 1028 01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:16,400 Speaker 1: led by Dr Geist and myself and Paul Craftsman, where 1029 01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,760 Speaker 1: he really examines the ecological history of the continent since 1030 01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,919 Speaker 1: the arrival of humans, not since the arrival of Europeans. 1031 01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,120 Speaker 1: There's probably not another three men on the continent who 1032 01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:31,480 Speaker 1: could have written that. Um. And so there is that 1033 01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:36,960 Speaker 1: and in the in the closing chapter and in the 1034 01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:40,000 Speaker 1: chapter on challenges, both of which I either co wrote, 1035 01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:45,040 Speaker 1: wrote or wrote. Um. This issue is also addressed, as 1036 01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,800 Speaker 1: is the issue of the invertebrates, the non game species. 1037 01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,400 Speaker 1: But this will be the first time I am aware 1038 01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:55,800 Speaker 1: of that in a significant publication, you know, a book 1039 01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,760 Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins Press, I mean, a highly respected academic publisher. 1040 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:02,360 Speaker 1: This will be the first time that these ideas will 1041 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,480 Speaker 1: really be brought to fruition. Um. It's a good you know, 1042 01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:10,040 Speaker 1: unless actually it's a want to miss a tenant here principle. 1043 01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,560 Speaker 1: The last principle was democracy of hunting. And take us 1044 01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:16,360 Speaker 1: through that quickly. I think we've discussed it already a 1045 01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:18,560 Speaker 1: lot in a lot of ways. So very briefly, the 1046 01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:23,440 Speaker 1: idea was that wildlife belongs to everyone, number one, and 1047 01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:27,360 Speaker 1: therefore access to it in any form should be by 1048 01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,280 Speaker 1: democratic right. In other ways, no one should be excluded 1049 01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:35,640 Speaker 1: because of race, class, financial circumstance, gender, you know, religion, whatever. 1050 01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:38,520 Speaker 1: And when it came to hunting, of course, this was 1051 01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:42,320 Speaker 1: given a prominence. Uh. And it's rightfully. So I think 1052 01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:46,240 Speaker 1: that in this articulation of the principles guys articulation, that 1053 01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:50,160 Speaker 1: hunting is mentioned because, as we talked about just earlier, 1054 01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:53,080 Speaker 1: the decision could have been to end all hunting because 1055 01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:55,520 Speaker 1: it was animal death that was causing the decimation of 1056 01:06:55,560 --> 01:07:01,000 Speaker 1: the animal populations. But the genius was to actually make hunting, 1057 01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:05,040 Speaker 1: the taking of the animal, the incentivized basis for the 1058 01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,880 Speaker 1: recovery of species, and that eventually became the NGOs and 1059 01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:13,400 Speaker 1: the agencies and so on. You know, without that activity, 1060 01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:16,320 Speaker 1: we wouldn't agencies wouldn't look like they do today and 1061 01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,720 Speaker 1: so forth, obviously, and there'd be a lot of institutions 1062 01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,959 Speaker 1: that we would not require. Some might say that would 1063 01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:25,080 Speaker 1: be a good thing, but let's leave that there for 1064 01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:29,160 Speaker 1: the moment um. And so the other factor here, of course, 1065 01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,720 Speaker 1: was that hunting in certain parts of Europe, not all 1066 01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,720 Speaker 1: parts of Europe, but certain parts of Europe was very 1067 01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:40,080 Speaker 1: much a class oriented and exclusionary and in some cases 1068 01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:45,880 Speaker 1: exclusive privilege. And America would have none of that, And 1069 01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:49,680 Speaker 1: of course that's why it was very clearly articulated that 1070 01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:55,120 Speaker 1: if you were a citizen and you were identified as 1071 01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,360 Speaker 1: you know that you could legally participate in this activity, 1072 01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:03,040 Speaker 1: which eventually involved testing stuff that that came much months later. UH, 1073 01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:05,919 Speaker 1: than you should have access to that. You should never 1074 01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:11,280 Speaker 1: be turned away because of your race, religion, color, or status. 1075 01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,040 Speaker 1: And that's what happened there. And may I just say too, 1076 01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:18,719 Speaker 1: in talking about that last one, that um it's really 1077 01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:22,439 Speaker 1: interesting that Canada, which at the time of this great 1078 01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:27,519 Speaker 1: fement in the eighteen sixties to nineteen five period was 1079 01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:31,240 Speaker 1: a loyal part of the dominion of Britain UH, did 1080 01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:35,840 Speaker 1: not adopt the British approach to conservation but joined with 1081 01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:38,960 Speaker 1: the United States of America. And that was a prescient, 1082 01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:46,400 Speaker 1: wise decision made by Prime Minister s Wilford Laurier and 1083 01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:50,920 Speaker 1: a group of equally aggressive visionary individuals working on the 1084 01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:56,679 Speaker 1: Canadian side. And the fact that Theodore Roosevelt UM UH 1085 01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:00,360 Speaker 1: invited Canadians to participate in the big discussion, said he 1086 01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,880 Speaker 1: had around this issue. Well, I think this is I mean, 1087 01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:06,559 Speaker 1: I might have We're just split up this into two episodes. 1088 01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,200 Speaker 1: We're gonna have to because it's because I think I 1089 01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:12,200 Speaker 1: want people to really I want even for myself to 1090 01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:15,200 Speaker 1: really be able to focus on this entire story, right, 1091 01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,280 Speaker 1: this entire seven tenants and principles and stop calling them 1092 01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:22,160 Speaker 1: tenants after this conversation the principles and what they truly mean, 1093 01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,479 Speaker 1: because you could read them in in their brief and 1094 01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,479 Speaker 1: then kind of get it. But to hear him in 1095 01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:32,080 Speaker 1: this his historical context and the context of your personal 1096 01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:37,040 Speaker 1: experiences is is huge. And UM, I read it. I 1097 01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,040 Speaker 1: want to end with I read a story recently only 1098 01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:41,760 Speaker 1: because I went down this rabbit hole of like trying 1099 01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,400 Speaker 1: to find challenges to my own beliefs, right. I wanted 1100 01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:46,960 Speaker 1: to find these these you know what I thought, were 1101 01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:51,720 Speaker 1: you know, well articulated challenges with things I believe. And 1102 01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:56,240 Speaker 1: there's this UM story I read called the Cult of 1103 01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:59,679 Speaker 1: Hunting and it's timely demise, right, kind of it kind 1104 01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:04,439 Speaker 1: of gave the counterpoints to the story that we're going through, right, 1105 01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:08,000 Speaker 1: So it gave rise to market hunting is the problem 1106 01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:11,559 Speaker 1: as as a problem that was was all about hunting, 1107 01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:16,040 Speaker 1: and it kind of just selectively cherry picked, um, some 1108 01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:20,600 Speaker 1: of the more negative components of hunting throughout history. UM. 1109 01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:22,240 Speaker 1: And I wanted to read a line from the end 1110 01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:26,280 Speaker 1: of it that I that it made me think, um, 1111 01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:28,400 Speaker 1: And I wanted to see what your reaction was to it. 1112 01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:31,680 Speaker 1: It says we need federal policies that empower everyone in 1113 01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,679 Speaker 1: this country, urban or rural, white, black, red or brown, 1114 01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,799 Speaker 1: female or male who cherished animals simply because they exist, 1115 01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:40,919 Speaker 1: or to enjoy watching them, or yes, to hunt them. 1116 01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:43,360 Speaker 1: When it comes to living with wild animals on this earth, 1117 01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:46,040 Speaker 1: they are sentient beings like us. They deserve rights, their 1118 01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:51,360 Speaker 1: welfare deserves our attention. Um. More to the first half 1119 01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,439 Speaker 1: of that sends it, how do we if if this model, 1120 01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,519 Speaker 1: you know, kind of talk so much about hunting, how 1121 01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:02,320 Speaker 1: do we allow this or this model to to give 1122 01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:04,679 Speaker 1: credence to what this person is saying. The writer here 1123 01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:10,080 Speaker 1: is saying, David Matson about the urban the folks that 1124 01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:13,559 Speaker 1: that maybe don't even understand this model. Um, how do 1125 01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:15,880 Speaker 1: we make it seem more inclusive? I guess would be 1126 01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,040 Speaker 1: the point maybe he's making, or what I would make overall, Well, 1127 01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:21,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we do need to make it 1128 01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:26,000 Speaker 1: more inclusive. And I think the efforts to to um, 1129 01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,280 Speaker 1: to get hunting organizations to step across the divide, if 1130 01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:31,559 Speaker 1: I could put it that way more is a very 1131 01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:36,320 Speaker 1: simple part of doing that which the hunting community deeply resists, 1132 01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:42,880 Speaker 1: effectively resists consistently resists UM. But the other way of 1133 01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:45,439 Speaker 1: doing this, which is also a front time working on, 1134 01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:48,920 Speaker 1: is to bring people who are not members of the 1135 01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:56,640 Speaker 1: hunting world into a a UM forum of realization that 1136 01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:02,960 Speaker 1: there are issues that both hunters and they themselves care 1137 01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:09,160 Speaker 1: about uh number one and number two that we can 1138 01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:13,760 Speaker 1: agree entirely, or some of us can, with the philosophies 1139 01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:17,760 Speaker 1: that are expressed here. That those animals have absolutely their 1140 01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:22,840 Speaker 1: own inherent value UM, and that our purpose must be 1141 01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:27,400 Speaker 1: fundamentally first and foremost to keep them, not to keep them. 1142 01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:31,000 Speaker 1: And this is where I would disagree, maybe a little bit, 1143 01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:34,160 Speaker 1: having only listened to the quote, or where I might 1144 01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:36,759 Speaker 1: refine it just a little bit, But to keep them, 1145 01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:40,360 Speaker 1: not just for any purpose, but to keep them. I 1146 01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:45,639 Speaker 1: firmly believe that we have a responsibility, but I don't really, 1147 01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:49,759 Speaker 1: for myself, consider it a responsibility in that ownerous sense. 1148 01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:53,360 Speaker 1: But I do believe humanity has a responsibility to keep 1149 01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:57,400 Speaker 1: wildlife with us. For me, it is just what I do. 1150 01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:01,519 Speaker 1: I don't view it as a mission, and I don't 1151 01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,479 Speaker 1: view it as a responsibility. I just view it as 1152 01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:11,160 Speaker 1: the air I breathe UM for me UM. Whether we 1153 01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:15,280 Speaker 1: hunt them or whether we don't and even to some extent, 1154 01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:19,000 Speaker 1: whether we view them or whether we don't, would never 1155 01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:23,160 Speaker 1: stop me from doing the work that I do. UM. 1156 01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:27,839 Speaker 1: And while I believe there is an only a single 1157 01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:31,839 Speaker 1: equation that we have yet seen in the ecological world, 1158 01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:34,599 Speaker 1: which means we are all tied together in some kind 1159 01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:39,719 Speaker 1: of trophic way, UM, I don't believe that we should 1160 01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:43,680 Speaker 1: always only be thinking about animals in some way in 1161 01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:47,880 Speaker 1: which we can can modify their value. I think this 1162 01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:50,280 Speaker 1: is a mistake that all sides in the debate make. 1163 01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:55,559 Speaker 1: You know, when I interact with an animal, and in 1164 01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,840 Speaker 1: my career, as I've told you many times, I have 1165 01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:04,720 Speaker 1: had such long and deep experiences, very often by myself 1166 01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:13,840 Speaker 1: with them. UM. I don't think about them as UM. 1167 01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:17,680 Speaker 1: I don't think about them as as something odd or 1168 01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:21,360 Speaker 1: unique or outside. Yes, they and thrall they interest me. 1169 01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:24,240 Speaker 1: I have to look at them, But once you reach 1170 01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:27,800 Speaker 1: a certain relationship with them, it is very much like 1171 01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,840 Speaker 1: they are companions. And the best way for me to 1172 01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:35,560 Speaker 1: explain this is I worked on the in the wilderness 1173 01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:41,679 Speaker 1: barren lands of Newfoundland for certainly solidly twenty five years, 1174 01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:48,280 Speaker 1: in which case, you know, caribou were amongst the most 1175 01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:51,240 Speaker 1: visible of animals. They're white, they're social, they stand out 1176 01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:52,920 Speaker 1: on the on the landscape. And we have a very 1177 01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:56,880 Speaker 1: white caribou, very arctic looking carribo. And I live with 1178 01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,439 Speaker 1: them through the rise and the peaking of the pop elation, 1179 01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,439 Speaker 1: and I lived with them through the drastic reductions that 1180 01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:06,040 Speaker 1: they and so many other caribou herds have now gone through. 1181 01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:10,960 Speaker 1: After a while, every day that I was on that 1182 01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:13,879 Speaker 1: land with just my pack on my back, just walking, 1183 01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:18,879 Speaker 1: you know, um, they were there. They were walking along 1184 01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:22,960 Speaker 1: the eskers, and they were they were crossing small streams, 1185 01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:26,240 Speaker 1: and they were coming out of small burns that took 1186 01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:29,839 Speaker 1: place on the patchwork land that we were on together. 1187 01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:32,360 Speaker 1: And they were walking across the bogs, you know, with 1188 01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:37,240 Speaker 1: the water on their hawks and so on. And after 1189 01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,200 Speaker 1: a while you just know they were there were There 1190 01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:41,920 Speaker 1: were three of them over there, and there was five 1191 01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:43,840 Speaker 1: of them over there. But you weren't classing them, you 1192 01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:47,080 Speaker 1: were you were just walking. Now the animals that I 1193 01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:50,040 Speaker 1: might have been studying for a specific reason, they were. 1194 01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:54,080 Speaker 1: They were of special interest to some extent. And even 1195 01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:57,639 Speaker 1: then I would have to leave them as darkness came 1196 01:15:58,200 --> 01:15:59,920 Speaker 1: to get back to my tent or to get back 1197 01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:02,320 Speaker 1: someplace to be picked up by aircraft or whatever the 1198 01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:06,639 Speaker 1: particular circumstance was, and they would just continue to walk 1199 01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:13,640 Speaker 1: across that land. And the most the only really sad, 1200 01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:19,880 Speaker 1: frustrating experience I have consistently had in the natural world 1201 01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:25,160 Speaker 1: is realizing that I had now reached my limits of 1202 01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:30,240 Speaker 1: natural nous with them. They just went on into the darkness. Man, 1203 01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:33,760 Speaker 1: they just went on into the night wind. But I 1204 01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:35,840 Speaker 1: had to get to something. I had to get to 1205 01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:37,799 Speaker 1: a tent, or I had to get to a cabin, 1206 01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,320 Speaker 1: or I had to get back to a float pane base, 1207 01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:42,360 Speaker 1: or I had to wait for a helicopter picked me 1208 01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:45,679 Speaker 1: up at a prescribed place, and they just went on. 1209 01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:50,280 Speaker 1: I would rejoin them or some others like them the 1210 01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:56,200 Speaker 1: next few next day, but again again that evening, I 1211 01:16:56,240 --> 01:17:02,479 Speaker 1: would have to leave them again. And you know, uh, 1212 01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:09,280 Speaker 1: it's in that context that I agree wholeheartedly with people 1213 01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:15,320 Speaker 1: who say they have just of value simply of being. 1214 01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:20,840 Speaker 1: Whether I believe they should have rights in any sense 1215 01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:26,840 Speaker 1: is not something I think a great deal about. Um Intellectually, 1216 01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:31,360 Speaker 1: I'm not one who advocates for that, but I have 1217 01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:35,160 Speaker 1: come to the absolute, firm conclusion that no one can 1218 01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:41,559 Speaker 1: dislodge from me now that we are no different from them, 1219 01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:45,920 Speaker 1: and they are no different from us, only in the 1220 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:51,200 Speaker 1: sense that we're all unique species. But I don't believe 1221 01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:56,040 Speaker 1: anymore the poppycock about they don't feel this and they 1222 01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:59,480 Speaker 1: don't think that, you know, they don't have this intelligence 1223 01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:02,280 Speaker 1: and all those kinds of things, because all of those 1224 01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:06,959 Speaker 1: arguments are designed to show that we are somehow special. 1225 01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:11,040 Speaker 1: But you cannot take a human being and fly them, 1226 01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:15,120 Speaker 1: told them through the air from you know, young Gava 1227 01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:19,360 Speaker 1: Bay on the Arctic Ocean and bring them halfway down 1228 01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:23,080 Speaker 1: to the bottom of South America, and then the next 1229 01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:26,640 Speaker 1: spring tell them to find their way back. You know. 1230 01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:30,679 Speaker 1: I could give a list of a million incredible things 1231 01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:33,920 Speaker 1: that wildlife does that we are completely incapable of doing, 1232 01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:37,160 Speaker 1: just as I can list a million things were capable 1233 01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:41,400 Speaker 1: of doing that other species cannot. And the conundrum for 1234 01:18:41,479 --> 01:18:49,360 Speaker 1: me is not about, however, whether we should utilize them 1235 01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:52,120 Speaker 1: or would utilize them, which might be a logical place 1236 01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:56,160 Speaker 1: for me to end up, because that would be lie 1237 01:18:56,840 --> 01:19:01,800 Speaker 1: the rhythm that I came to understand living with them, 1238 01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:05,160 Speaker 1: which is that we are all connected. The bear will 1239 01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:08,439 Speaker 1: run down the caribou calf and consume it, and the 1240 01:19:08,479 --> 01:19:12,040 Speaker 1: cariboo will seek the young shoots of spring to feed 1241 01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:15,760 Speaker 1: itself and to produce milk to raise that calf, and 1242 01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:19,160 Speaker 1: the bull cariboo will segregate themselves to feed and fatten 1243 01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:22,200 Speaker 1: and fight in the fall, and some of them will 1244 01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:26,599 Speaker 1: die in the pursuit of that. But you know, we 1245 01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:30,160 Speaker 1: are all connected by an ecological equation that in one 1246 01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:33,960 Speaker 1: way or another, things live for a period, and things 1247 01:19:34,040 --> 01:19:37,439 Speaker 1: die for a period, and there is no other way 1248 01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:43,760 Speaker 1: for life to continue. But when I see people who 1249 01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:49,479 Speaker 1: somehow think animals are inferior to human beings, or should 1250 01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:52,920 Speaker 1: be treated in ways that we would not treat human beings, 1251 01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:55,639 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, Man, I am out 1252 01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:59,200 Speaker 1: there with the animal advocates as far out as you 1253 01:19:59,280 --> 01:20:03,439 Speaker 1: can bloody well get, And I just think that if 1254 01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:07,799 Speaker 1: the make one final statement Visa VI the hunting world 1255 01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:13,320 Speaker 1: and where we're headed, if we don't dramatically clean up 1256 01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:20,080 Speaker 1: the imagery and the image of the hunter in modern society, 1257 01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:25,440 Speaker 1: this thing will be destroyed. Not by anti hunter advocates, 1258 01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:31,040 Speaker 1: It will be destroyed by the centrist change, the overwhelming 1259 01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:36,800 Speaker 1: force of value change in the societies in which we live. 1260 01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:43,200 Speaker 1: The animals now sell you your motorcycle insurance. Animals sell 1261 01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:48,360 Speaker 1: you fertilizer, animal book, your trips, animal book, your books, 1262 01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:52,920 Speaker 1: your hotels, animals send you your your things. You you 1263 01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,080 Speaker 1: take so because you can't sleep in the nighttime. As 1264 01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:58,360 Speaker 1: I said to a group of people the other night 1265 01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:01,800 Speaker 1: at a local restaurant here in Osman, do me a 1266 01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:04,720 Speaker 1: favor and tomorrow walk along the main street. I'm not 1267 01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:07,240 Speaker 1: sure it's call main street, but the main road where 1268 01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:11,920 Speaker 1: most of the mercantile uh shops are. And take a 1269 01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:14,679 Speaker 1: small notebook and go in and out of those stores 1270 01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:18,880 Speaker 1: and write down, just put a tick down. Every time 1271 01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:24,959 Speaker 1: you see animal imagery on a napkin, on a cushion, 1272 01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:29,479 Speaker 1: on a bedspread, on a glass, on a cooler, on 1273 01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,439 Speaker 1: a cup, on a piece of clothing, on a piece 1274 01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:39,439 Speaker 1: of furniture, you will be absolutely astounded. Yeah, my son 1275 01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:41,479 Speaker 1: is two years old and he lives in a world 1276 01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:46,439 Speaker 1: where animals talk to him, of course, and they're his friends. Yeah, 1277 01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:50,200 Speaker 1: it's strange box that he watches, But I mean that's 1278 01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:52,160 Speaker 1: his life. That's all he knows, it's all he'll ever know. 1279 01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:56,360 Speaker 1: His clothes have animals on him, his his his backpack 1280 01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:59,840 Speaker 1: is you know, his cap his toys. His whole life 1281 01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:03,639 Speaker 1: revolved around before they'll even learn how to connect dots there. 1282 01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:08,760 Speaker 1: His his life is is taken over by animals, and 1283 01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:11,000 Speaker 1: not in a way that it has any reality to 1284 01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:16,519 Speaker 1: them all. But but it says that it said it 1285 01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:20,760 Speaker 1: talks about our innate interest in them. Yeah. Yeah, that's 1286 01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:23,080 Speaker 1: a good way to to end it. UM. I think 1287 01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:26,160 Speaker 1: everybody should go out and do just what Shane um 1288 01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:28,880 Speaker 1: advised there, but also learn as much you can about 1289 01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:32,040 Speaker 1: the North American model. If you haven't learned it all here, Uh, 1290 01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:34,200 Speaker 1: there will be a book coming out this September that 1291 01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:37,200 Speaker 1: can can um put it all together for you. But 1292 01:22:37,240 --> 01:22:40,040 Speaker 1: I think as we as hunters, my opinion is these 1293 01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:42,600 Speaker 1: are things that we should be required to know. The 1294 01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:45,640 Speaker 1: thing that we go out and do is very serious undertaking. 1295 01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:50,360 Speaker 1: UM should be taking and we should be requiring of ourselves, 1296 01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:56,200 Speaker 1: UM you know, the intellectual and mental acuity to understand 1297 01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:59,040 Speaker 1: all of these things UM in detail. So hopefully this 1298 01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:01,719 Speaker 1: helps you out with that. And Shane, thanks as always 1299 01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:04,559 Speaker 1: for sitting down. You're welcome. It's most enjoyable. All right. 1300 01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:13,360 Speaker 1: That's it. That's all. Another episode of The Hunting Collective 1301 01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:17,280 Speaker 1: is done. Thank you to Shane Mahoney for coming through 1302 01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:21,040 Speaker 1: spending this much time with us. Hopefully you listen to 1303 01:23:21,040 --> 01:23:24,400 Speaker 1: part one and this part two kind of close a 1304 01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:27,120 Speaker 1: loop for you. There's obviously a million things that talked 1305 01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:30,160 Speaker 1: about within this conversation, but hopefully two and a half 1306 01:23:30,240 --> 01:23:33,320 Speaker 1: or so hours put it in better context for you, 1307 01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:36,000 Speaker 1: gave you more tools to go forward and have more 1308 01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:39,600 Speaker 1: educated conversations with non hunters and even other hunters about 1309 01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:43,720 Speaker 1: these concepts. Because because from one to seven, the principles 1310 01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:47,200 Speaker 1: put forth in this model are the things that govern 1311 01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:51,080 Speaker 1: what we do. They governed our ideas, our feelings, our thoughts, 1312 01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:56,439 Speaker 1: our actions around hunting and conservation. So there's no in 1313 01:23:56,520 --> 01:24:01,040 Speaker 1: my mind conversation more important than this one as foundational 1314 01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:04,400 Speaker 1: level of how we think about our interactions with wildlife. 1315 01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:07,479 Speaker 1: So thank you for for sticking in there, Thanks for 1316 01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:11,479 Speaker 1: listening to Shane and coming back for part two. We 1317 01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:15,400 Speaker 1: both appreciate it. Shane is is a good man. You 1318 01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:18,519 Speaker 1: can hear him in many places, but be sure to 1319 01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:21,720 Speaker 1: look him up at Conservation Visions on Facebook, and then 1320 01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:23,880 Speaker 1: you can watch a lot of his content on Army 1321 01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:26,320 Speaker 1: f dot org and you could see him speaking in 1322 01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:30,720 Speaker 1: almost every damn conference every Day and Wildlife conference in 1323 01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,080 Speaker 1: the country to dude is prolific and it gets around. 1324 01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:37,200 Speaker 1: So hopefully this helps you understand all about Shane and 1325 01:24:37,240 --> 01:24:40,080 Speaker 1: his ideas. What else, what else? What else? What else? 1326 01:24:40,320 --> 01:24:43,479 Speaker 1: What else? We go? Oh shit, Uh, I probably told 1327 01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:46,760 Speaker 1: you about the Media to Live podcast. Well we're still going. 1328 01:24:47,160 --> 01:24:51,960 Speaker 1: You can't stop us. We're gonna be in Austin on 1329 01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:56,559 Speaker 1: April second, I believe, and we're gonna be talking to 1330 01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:59,600 Speaker 1: you folks. There will be at Boise Idaho at the 1331 01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:05,760 Speaker 1: run Abou as well. We will just come back from 1332 01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:08,719 Speaker 1: Portland's and we have a Seattle stop which I won't 1333 01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:12,439 Speaker 1: be at, but folks like April Okey Slam Longer and 1334 01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:15,040 Speaker 1: more will be there on stage to hear the cheering crowd, 1335 01:25:15,439 --> 01:25:18,960 Speaker 1: and so come and show up because you'll hear me 1336 01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:20,800 Speaker 1: talk about on this podcast a bunch. But it's one 1337 01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:24,720 Speaker 1: of the more special experience I've had is my professional life. Um, 1338 01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:29,080 Speaker 1: sitting in on these panels, talking and laughing and meeting 1339 01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:31,559 Speaker 1: people and just being a part of us, this community 1340 01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,880 Speaker 1: that we've created, and I couldn't be happier to do it. 1341 01:25:35,320 --> 01:25:38,320 Speaker 1: I couldn't be happier to meet everyone and shake your 1342 01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:42,599 Speaker 1: hands man, it's it's it's it's fun and it never 1343 01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:45,719 Speaker 1: gets old and hopefully it never will. And so everything 1344 01:25:45,720 --> 01:25:49,879 Speaker 1: else is normal business. To the wrap up, Go subscribe 1345 01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:52,320 Speaker 1: to our newsletter. If you're not, you're missing out man. 1346 01:25:52,400 --> 01:25:56,840 Speaker 1: Every Wednesday. This thing is full of impertinent information. Go 1347 01:25:57,240 --> 01:26:02,600 Speaker 1: and um, go to the website, click around, man, go 1348 01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:04,800 Speaker 1: to the store. Find something you want to buy there. 1349 01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:06,840 Speaker 1: Hopefully it says Hunting collect upon it. If it doesn't, 1350 01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:08,439 Speaker 1: it should say media or run it or Wired to 1351 01:26:08,520 --> 01:26:11,439 Speaker 1: Hunt or some other thing. It doesn't really matter. What 1352 01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:13,720 Speaker 1: matters that you go there and you click around, and 1353 01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:16,760 Speaker 1: hopefully you enjoy your time. When we work hard, very 1354 01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:19,719 Speaker 1: hard on these stories and these products, hopefully you enjoy 1355 01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:21,880 Speaker 1: them and make your life a little bit better in 1356 01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:25,160 Speaker 1: whatever way that they can. So that's all that I 1357 01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:29,000 Speaker 1: have for this week and the Hunting Collective, thanks again 1358 01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:33,120 Speaker 1: for a wonderful conversation and let's all learn and celebrate 1359 01:26:33,479 --> 01:26:37,680 Speaker 1: and challenge the North American model wildlife conservation. Thank you, 1360 01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:38,560 Speaker 1: see you