1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube's. 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: Pretty incredible to see that move on American Eagle on 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: the back of a true Social posts from President Trump. 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: Of course, that is not all he's used about on 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: true social today. We've heard from him on a number 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: of issues, including, as Charlie mentioned, the threat to raise 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: tariffs on India over purchases of Russian oil, but also 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: a doubling down of allegations that began last Friday, shortly 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 2: after the jobs report, that somehow the data put out 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: by the Bureau of Labor Statistics was ricked. This is 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 2: something the President said on social media earlier today, that 16 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: these were numbers, fake political numbers that were concocted to 17 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: quote him in order to make a great Republican success 18 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: look less stellar. We would reiterate that night. Either the 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: President or anyone else in the administration has actually provided 20 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 2: hard evidence to support these claims. But of course President 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: Trump has not just talked about it online, He's spoken 22 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: with reporters about it as well. And what's going to 23 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 2: come next for the BLS. Listen to a few of 24 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: his comments from over the weekend. 25 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 3: We'll be announcing a new statistician sometime over the next 26 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 3: three four days. We had no confidence. 27 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 4: I mean, the. 28 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 3: Numbers were ridiculous what she announced, but that was just 29 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 3: one negative number. 30 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 5: All the numbers seem to be great. 31 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 3: We'll see what happened. 32 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 6: But we just found out that I have a open 33 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 6: spot on the federalis Ave Board. 34 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 7: I'm very happy about that. 35 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 8: And with two jobs to phill, we turned to Michael 36 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 8: McKee for help. Bloomberg's International Economics and Policy correspondent, who 37 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 8: of course covers the FED, travels to Washington, where Kayley 38 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 8: and I sit now to cover this very complex that 39 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 8: the President is talking about, and he's with us now 40 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 8: from world headquarters in New York. Mike, we've got two 41 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 8: different things here. There's wrong and there's rigged. As far 42 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 8: as wrong, the revisions are part of the process, as 43 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 8: we've been discussing. In many cases, respondents are slow to 44 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,839 Speaker 8: get back to the government survey. But when you hear 45 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 8: Kevin Hassen on Sunday Morning television saying, the revisions are 46 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 8: the hard evidence. How do we go forward from there? 47 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 6: Well, it's an interesting question because I'm sure that Kevin 48 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 6: knows better and he's just saying it because he works 49 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 6: for Donald Trump. The revisions are revisions, and there's a 50 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 6: reason for the revisions, and that is that statistics is imperfect. 51 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 6: One of the problems that the BLS has, along with 52 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 6: the other statistical agencies, is that since the pandemic, response 53 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 6: rates from businesses have been falling a lot, so they 54 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 6: don't get as much information into the first release as 55 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 6: they do into the later releases. And they also have 56 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 6: to do some statistical abstraction, but that doesn't mean that 57 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 6: the numbers are false. It's the best statistically that one 58 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 6: could do. They also have a problem in that there 59 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 6: are fewer people working at these agencies because Congress for 60 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 6: years has starved the statistical agencies of cash. And so 61 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 6: it all comes together in this situation where we had 62 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 6: a couple of months that were revised significantly downward. But 63 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 6: when I looked at the data, the response rate for 64 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 6: the first May survey, which was revised down significantly by 65 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 6: the third one in July was forty two percent, so 66 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 6: less than half of the businesses that are supposed to respond. 67 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 6: So the Labor Department probably did some extrapolation and came 68 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 6: up with a larger number that then when they got 69 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 6: more data, was pushed back down. I think the final 70 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 6: data number was eighty nine percent response rate. The President 71 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 6: also is you know, I don't know he's lying deliberately 72 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 6: or whether he doesn't even know what he's talking about. 73 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 6: But when he said that the BLS released data to 74 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 6: make the Harris campaign look good right before the election, 75 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 6: the BLS actually on November first, four days before the election, 76 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 6: announced that in October there had been only twelve thousand 77 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 6: jobs created. So if anybody was favored by that, it 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 6: would have been the Trump campaign. So it's kind of 79 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 6: hard to know where you go from that when they're 80 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 6: living at the White House in such a fantasy world. 81 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 2: Well, and of course, that more than eight hundred thousand 82 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: revision number we talked about from twenty twenty four actually 83 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 2: happened during the Democratic National Convention. Joe and I were 84 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: in Chicago. It was well before the election, So Mike, 85 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: that's on the BLS side. Of course, President Trump is 86 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: talking about not just filling that role, but a new 87 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: role on the Federal Reserve Board of Governors as well. 88 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: How should we be reading into who ultimately he names, 89 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: potentially as soon as this week, and what it will 90 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: mean to who ultimately is go to succeed your own 91 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: Powell as FED chair. 92 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 6: He said he'd been naming somebody in a few days. 93 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 6: I tend to doubt that based on his history and 94 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 6: also based on the thinking that has to go into this. 95 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 6: Scott Besson has started a process, I'm not sure how 96 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 6: far along he is and vetting somebody to replace J. 97 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 6: Powell as chair and, in theory, at the same time, 98 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 6: replace Adriana Kugler in her governor's spot. And the Cougler 99 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 6: vacancy may be the only one that the president gets 100 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 6: because J. Powell, in theory, could stay on as governor 101 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 6: until twenty twenty eight. His term is chair is over 102 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 6: in twenty twenty six, but he could stay on as 103 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 6: governor even if he were not chair. So if there's 104 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 6: no opening, he can't appoint anyone else, which sets up 105 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 6: kind of a musical chairs game. Does he want to 106 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 6: put in somebody to Coogler's seat? Who's going to be 107 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 6: seen as the chair in waiting and create that shadow 108 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 6: chair situation that we have talked about. The markets would 109 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 6: probably assume whoever is chosen would be that, or does 110 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 6: he put somebody in and then say, I'll decide later 111 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 6: who's going to be chaired, even if Powell stays around. 112 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 6: I'll pick somebody like I could pick somebody like Chris 113 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 6: Waller or Nicky Bowman or this person I'm just naming now, 114 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 6: and set up, as somebody put it today, an Apprentice 115 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 6: like situation where you have three people for six months 116 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 6: competing with each other to not be fired. So it 117 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,239 Speaker 6: is kind of an unusual situation that will be interesting 118 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 6: to watch and it might be a little painful for 119 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 6: the markets. 120 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: All right, Michael McKee, Bloomberg International Economics and Policy correspondent 121 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 2: here with us on Balance of Power. Thank you so much, 122 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: and we want to add the voice now as we 123 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 2: consider both of these vacancies that will have to be filled. 124 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 2: A member of the House Financial Services Committee also chair 125 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: of the House Administration Committee, Republican Congressman Brian Style of 126 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: Wisconsin is back with us on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Congressman, 127 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: welcome back to the show. It's good to have you. 128 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: If we could just begin with the Bureau of Labors 129 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 2: to sticks chief being fired over the jobs data. Have you, 130 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: as a member of the Financial Services Committee, seen evidence 131 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: to support the president's claims, and in the absence of 132 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: that evidence, do you think this firing was justified. 133 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 7: I don't have evidence of those claims, but I do 134 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 7: believe that the president has a right to make sure 135 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 7: that he has a man or woman in that position 136 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 7: that he has full faith and confidence in. The job 137 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 7: market has been very difficult to analyze at a period 138 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 7: of time. Is the gig economy is dramatically ticked up, 139 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 7: as we have seen a shift in jobs as it 140 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 7: relates to foreign born or natural born citizens, and so 141 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 7: making sure the president has someone in that position that 142 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 7: he has full faith and confidence in is his prerogative. 143 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 8: Do you think that when he goes to fill the 144 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 8: vacancy on the FED board here following Governor Kugler's resignation 145 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 8: on Friday, Congressman, that that person in fact will be 146 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 8: the FED chair the new FED chair in waiting. 147 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 7: I don't have information one way or the other, but 148 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 7: I do think it's important to recognize that the decisions 149 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 7: made by the Federal Reserve are not made by any 150 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,679 Speaker 7: one individual. Often we see the Federal Reserve Board act 151 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 7: with unanonymity, but that may or may not be the case, 152 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 7: and so we may see more divisions and votes. And 153 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 7: I don't think that's an inherently bad thing for the 154 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 7: Federal Reserve. And so it's a group of people. The 155 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 7: key is that they are making these decisions based on 156 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 7: the data in front of them, not based on any 157 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 7: other ulterior motive. 158 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: Well, so when the President suggests that the person he 159 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: wants to chair the FED ultimately and very well, the 160 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: person he'd like to select is the governor that replaces Kogler, 161 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: that he wants them to have a low interest rate bias. Congressman, 162 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 2: do you see that as a problem if lower interest 163 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: rates may or may not be justified by the data. 164 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 7: Well, again, what we want is these decisions made by 165 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 7: the FED based on the data in front of them. Again, 166 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 7: having disagreement different points of view brought to the Federal 167 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 7: Reserve Board, I don't think is an inherently negative thing. 168 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 7: And the Federal Reserve has been criticized for decades by 169 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 7: different administrations. President Trump just doing it more publicly than 170 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 7: maybe President Nixon, where we found out later when the 171 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 7: tapes were revealed, and so putting pressure on the Fed 172 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 7: is nothing new. I think what we're seeing is just 173 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 7: to play out in a little bit more of a 174 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,599 Speaker 7: public manner. Although the Federal Reserve is independent of the 175 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 7: executive that does not mean it's immune to criticism from 176 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 7: the administration. 177 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 8: Congressman, we had a look at the town hall meeting 178 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 8: that you held last week that got pretty chippy. There 179 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 8: were a number of folks who were booing, and we've 180 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 8: been talking about the potential for some confrontational town halls 181 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 8: this August recess, following the passage of the President's Big 182 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 8: Beautiful Bill and of course the recisions package that followed. 183 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 8: I just want to give our listeners and viewers a 184 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 8: taste of what you ran into the other night. Let's 185 00:09:55,320 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 8: watch and listen, Tommy, the dire circumstances that trigger is hoarse. 186 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 7: Very. 187 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 3: Telling out veterans hatch out of the gates. I just 188 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 3: want to say thank you for your service to our country. 189 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: Is as we look, as we look at that back 190 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: and forth that's going on with the administration, this really, 191 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 3: at its core needs to be an opportunity to make 192 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 3: sure that other countries are treated in the United States, Farlom. 193 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 8: You know, so a big round of booing there, and 194 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 8: as we read in the local media, Congressman, protesters actually 195 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 8: walked to your home with a cardboard coffin to represent 196 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 8: the people they say would die from cuts to medicaid. 197 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 8: I'm just curious what your thoughts are coming out of 198 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 8: a session like that and how you respond to these constituents. 199 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 7: I've done dozens and dozens of town halls across Wisconsin 200 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 7: over the years. Media report said that probably out of 201 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 7: a room of roughly four hundred people, there are maybe 202 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 7: thirty to fifty protesters inside. Rest assured they were loud. 203 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 7: I don't think that that group of protesters, the small 204 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 7: group that was inside the room, we're really representative of 205 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 7: the views of most people in southeast Wisconsin. This was 206 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,599 Speaker 7: a group that tried to obstruct the pledge of allegiance. 207 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 7: Bood what we said, let's have a productive conversation. And 208 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 7: so at the end of the day, I think what's 209 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 7: really challenging right now across the board in the United 210 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 7: States is a willingness to really engage in productive conversation 211 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 7: about what needs to be done. To move our country forward, 212 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 7: and so far too often individuals resort to disruptive tactics 213 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 7: rather than engaging. Was really needed of a substantive conversation 214 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 7: a period of time where we're massively driving a debt 215 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 7: further and further up, where we have global challenges from 216 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 7: a national security perspective, where we've made I think great 217 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 7: progress on securing in the US Mexico border. So maybe 218 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 7: it's a point in time and reflection for the whole 219 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 7: country to reflect and analyze how we can have a 220 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 7: much more productive dialogue, which is going to be really 221 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 7: essential based on the challenges that are in front of us. 222 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:14,359 Speaker 2: Well, have you had any productive engagement around issues constituents 223 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: may have around the way in which this one big, 224 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: beautiful bill threatens to affect them or they're worried will 225 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: affect them. Does it give you pause about any elements 226 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 2: of the piece of legislation that you voted for. 227 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 7: Well, there's a lot of misinformation that's circulating on key 228 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 7: provisions of the bill, which is why I was hoping 229 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 7: to use this forum as an opportunity to provide folks 230 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 7: and residents across Wisconsin better information about what's actually in 231 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 7: the legislation that's become law. We use a number of 232 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 7: different venues to do this, through email, telephone calls, in person, 233 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 7: town halls just being one of the ways in which 234 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 7: I try to communicate with folks. But there's a lot 235 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 7: of misinformation, in particular as it relates to medicaid. In 236 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 7: regards to medicaid, what we're seeing in Wisconsin is mostly 237 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 7: a shift towards work requirements for able bodied, childless adults 238 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 7: in the state. Was consting that's an eighty twenty issue 239 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 7: because it's common sense that we know that we can 240 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 7: help lift people up out of poverty as long as 241 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 7: a job as a core component of that. 242 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 8: Yeah. Well, look, I think that everyone deserves a lot 243 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 8: of credit for being at that town hall on both 244 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 8: sides of this, including you, Congressman. As a lawmaker, making 245 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 8: a decision to interact with constituents has not been terribly 246 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 8: popular from what we've seen lately, and I just I 247 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 8: wonder if you actually can hear from the voters who 248 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 8: were upset about debt and deficits seeing some four trillion 249 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 8: dollars added to ours in the so called Big Beautiful Bill. 250 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 8: There has been, I know, a conversation about coming back 251 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 8: around to lower the debt impact of this legislation is 252 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 8: that what the next move should be. 253 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 7: We had questions on that exact topic, and I think 254 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 7: it's important to know that as the Washington DC accountants 255 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 7: analyze that cost, large chunks of that are the overwhelming 256 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 7: majority of that is actually just simply making the twenty 257 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 7: seventeen tax cuts permanent, simply built on that by providing 258 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 7: tax relief to seniors on Social Security, those individuals working 259 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 7: overtime or earning tips, and so the bulk of the 260 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 7: cost is really shown up by simply doubling down and 261 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 7: making sure that we're making permanent the twenty seventeen tax 262 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 7: cuts that had a real substantive positive impact on real 263 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 7: wages for families across the state. And so it's reasonable 264 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 7: that people can have different views on any given policy, 265 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 7: but this is where making sure individuals have the information 266 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 7: they need to be able to make their decisions is 267 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 7: so absolutely essential. And why a small group of individuals 268 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 7: who protested the town hall was a bit disappointing for 269 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 7: the countless individuals that wanted to hear what I was 270 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 7: trying to provide. 271 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: Congressman, we just have thirty seconds left but when you 272 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: return to Washington come September, what odds do you put 273 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 2: around a government shutdown? 274 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 7: We can't allow a government shutdown to occur. I know 275 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 7: there's a lot of my Democratic colleagues that are actually 276 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 7: hoping that we do shut down. I don't view that 277 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 7: as productive. I'd rather make sure that we come together 278 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 7: address the spending challenges we face into what we need 279 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 7: to do to avoid a shutdown at the end of September. 280 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 8: Appreciate your joining us here from what looks like a 281 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 8: beautiful day in Wisconsin. By the way, Congressman will do 282 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 8: this again soon, I'm sure and certainly when you're back 283 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 8: in the Capitol. It's Brian's style. Republican Congressman from Wisconsin's 284 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 8: first District, I'm Joe Matthew, alongside Hayley Lions in Washington, 285 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 8: will assemble our panel next. As Democrats in the state 286 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 8: of Texas flee the lone star state who avoid reaching 287 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 8: a quorum that could prompt a redrawing of congressional maps, 288 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 8: we'll lot the story next on Bloomberg. 289 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 290 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 291 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: Apple Cockley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 292 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 293 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 294 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: Here in Washington, where the town has been a bus 295 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: for weeks now about the potential of redistricting wars heading 296 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: into the twenty twenty six midterm, the talk, of course, 297 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: of which began a few weeks ago when President Trump 298 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: openly suggested that Texas should redraw its congressional map in 299 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: order to carve out five more Republican seats to give 300 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 2: the Republicans a better chance of retaining the majority in 301 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: the House of Representatives. Texas, of course, began a special 302 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: legislative session a few weeks ago to undertake that effort, 303 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: as well as others, including the relief for the devastating 304 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: floods that hit the state last month. But to take 305 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: forward action on any of them, you need a quorum. 306 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 2: Two thirds of the Texas legislature needs to actually be 307 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: present in order to vote on these matters, redistricting included, 308 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: and Democratic lawmakers in the state have decided not to 309 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: provide that quorum as they attempt to block this Republican 310 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: effort on jerrymandering have fled blue states like New York 311 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: or even Illinois to outside of Chicago, including a Texas 312 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: legislature member, James Tellerico, who we spoke with on this 313 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: program one week ago today when we asked him about 314 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 2: this possibility, and this is what he told us. 315 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 9: We've had to figure out how to use every tool 316 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 9: in our toolbox, whether that's the rules, whether it's our platforms, 317 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 9: or whether it is denying quorum. That's obviously a dramatic step, 318 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 9: and it's one that shouldn't be taken lightly. My Democratic 319 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 9: colleagues and I are willing to do whatever it takes 320 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 9: to stop this power grab and to protect the democratic 321 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 9: process here in Texas and around the country, because if 322 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 9: President Trump succeeds with this power grab in Texas, I 323 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 9: worry that he will do the same thing in every 324 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 9: red state across the country. 325 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 8: That was one week ago here on Balance of Power. 326 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 8: Fast forward to today and James tall Rico is now 327 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 8: one of fifty seven Democrats it was chosen to leave 328 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 8: the state preventing from Republicans or preventing Republicans from i 329 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 8: should say, reaching a quorum, and therefore at least temporarily 330 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 8: blocking this redrawing from happening. We want to get into 331 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 8: this with Julie Fine, Bloomberg's Texas Bureau chief, who is 332 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 8: been very busy on this story now for a couple 333 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 8: of weeks with us from Dallas. Julie. It's an interesting 334 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 8: move here, but it can only go so far. 335 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 10: Right. 336 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 8: Governor Greg Abbot can call as many special sessions as 337 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 8: he wants. So is the effort here to simply publicize 338 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 8: what's happening? 339 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 11: Well, I think the effort here is to draw attention 340 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 11: to it. 341 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 4: Certainly. 342 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 11: However, they are working very hard to make sure that 343 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 11: this doesn't happen very soon. I mean, when you look 344 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 11: at the redistricting bill, this is the first bill that 345 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 11: has come up for the House to vote on. I 346 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 11: think that infuriated many, knowing that it would be put 347 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 11: on the clock so that they would have to stay 348 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 11: there because you leave and you have flooding on as well. 349 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 11: So obviously this is a choice that they decided to make, 350 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 11: and they know that Republicans will discuss that this Joe, 351 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 11: You've discussed this before, is temporary because at the end 352 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 11: of the day, when you talk about the tools in 353 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 11: the toolbox. One of them is not the majority, and 354 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 11: that's what you really need to get something through here, 355 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 11: so they can stay out. They'll draw attention to it, certainly, 356 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 11: but I think what they're also trying to do is 357 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 11: make sure that other states that can redistrict pay attention 358 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 11: to what's happening. 359 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 2: Well, Julie, when we talk about tools in the toolbox, 360 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: what about the tools available to opponents of what Democrats 361 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 2: are doing here, Like for Governor Abbott or the Attorney 362 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 2: General Ken Paxton, who has floated the idea of arresting 363 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 2: these lawmakers who have left the state, What real consequence 364 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: could these individuals face. 365 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 11: Well, that certainly depends, and that would explain why they 366 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 11: are in Illinois. That is a democratic state, and you 367 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 11: heard Governor Pritzker at the news conference say last night 368 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 11: he will do everything he can to protect them. The 369 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 11: question is when they go back to Texas. So clearly 370 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 11: they understand that this is a risk that they are taking. 371 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 11: But certainly the Attorney General has made it very clear 372 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 11: that he thinks that they can be arrested. Governor Abbott 373 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 11: now threatening their seats talking about them. So in the 374 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 11: next few days, I think you're going to really see 375 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 11: what direction this is headed in this session lasts two 376 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 11: more weeks. 377 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: All right, Bloomberg's Texas Bear chief, Julie Fine, appreciate your 378 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: recording on this, Thank you so much. And as Julie mentioned, 379 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 2: we did see the Governor of Illinois jab Pritzker greeting 380 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: members yesterday outside of Chicago. Let's get a taste of 381 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: what he said. 382 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 5: Trump came up with a news scheme rig the system 383 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 5: by ramming through a corrupt mid decade redistricting plan that 384 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 5: would steal five congressional seats, silencing millions of voices, especially 385 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 5: black and Latino voters. Let's be clear, this is not 386 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 5: just rigging the system in Texas. It's about rigging the 387 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 5: system against the rights of all. 388 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: Americans and for those with US on radio and not 389 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: YouTube or TV. It's worth noting that Jbipritzker dot Com 390 00:20:54,720 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: was pasted multiple times as the backdrop for these remarks. 391 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 2: So let's get into this now with our political panel. 392 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick Davis and Jeanie Schanzano are with us. 393 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: Rick Davis, of course Stone Court Capital partner and Republican strategists. 394 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 2: Genie are Democratic analyst and senior Democracy fellow at the 395 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: Center for the Study of the Presidency and Congress. Jeanie. 396 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: We've talked about, or we were just talking about with Julie, 397 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: how all of this is a chance for Democrats to 398 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 2: publicize what's going on in Texas. But is it also 399 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 2: a chance for the likes of JB. Pritzker, a potential 400 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight candidate. 401 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 4: It absolutely is, And I'm so glad you mentioned what 402 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 4: was behind him, because, Kaylie, you can save democracy and 403 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 4: raise money apparently at the same time for your rest 404 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 4: of twenty eight. But this is really a precursor, not 405 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 4: just to the midterms, but to twenty eight. And you're 406 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 4: giving a lot of state and local democrats the chance 407 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 4: to show Americans that they are willing to fight for them, 408 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 4: and that is what many Democrats on the ground want. 409 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 4: I think one of the ironies of this entire story 410 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 4: is the fact that this is allowed because the Supreme 411 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 4: Court said it is constitutional to politically jerrymander, and that 412 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 4: has gotten us into this position where you now have 413 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 4: Texas and sure to follow other states, whether California and 414 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 4: New York, they Illinois, they will try to jerrymander and 415 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 4: the losers here are the American public, Republican and Democrat, 416 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 4: because what you're doing is denying people a choice at 417 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 4: the ballot box, making our house districts less competitive, and 418 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 4: that is anti democratic with a small D. 419 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 8: I know we've seen this move before, Rick, but what 420 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 8: kind of strategy is in is this here? You go 421 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 8: to hang out with Pritzker in Chicago, Kathy Hochel in Albany. 422 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 8: I guess some of the others are in Boston right now, 423 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 8: but you have to come home eventually, might have to 424 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 8: pay fines when you do it, and then the governor 425 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 8: simply schedules other special session. This doesn't keep anything from happening, 426 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 8: does it. 427 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 12: Yeah, it's not a winning formula from what I can tell. 428 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 12: And I don't know, but most Texans I would think 429 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 12: hanging out those Democratic leaders in Yankee States is probably 430 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 12: not exactly a positive for them coming back to their 431 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 12: home districts. So, I mean, I can't believe that's going 432 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 12: to work. And then on the top of it, you've 433 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 12: got another liberal Democratic governor, Gavin Newsom, saying he's going 434 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 12: to do the same thing they're doing in Texas. So like, 435 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 12: I'm sorry, sounds like you've adopted the same strategy. So 436 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 12: why are these people hiding? I honestly don't think it's 437 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 12: a winning issue for Democrats. Nobody's ever won an election 438 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 12: that I can recall, you know, decrying the negative state 439 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 12: of redistricting. I mean, even the Supreme Court says, you 440 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 12: know what districts are set by political means, and that's 441 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 12: exactly what they're talking about doing. So the likelihood that 442 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 12: any of this is going to result in a successful 443 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 12: lawsuit not you know, devil's into details, but that's been 444 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 12: tried before and very rarely does it succeed. 445 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 7: So I don't know. 446 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 12: I mean, I think this takes Democrats off their game, 447 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 12: puts them in an awkward spot where some of the 448 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 12: leaders are claiming to want to do the same thing 449 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 12: and others are harboring people who are trying to avoid it. 450 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 12: So where are you, Democrats? Are you for this or 451 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 12: are you against it? 452 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 2: Well, so let's add the voice of another Democratic governor. 453 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 2: Rick of course mentioned that California Governor Gavin Newsom has 454 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: floated the idea of pursuing something similar, but so too 455 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: earlier today that it did. The governor of New York, 456 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 2: Kathy Hochel to. 457 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 13: Refuse to stand up and fight for our democracy as 458 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 13: we are joining in solidarity with our friends from Texas. 459 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 13: Means one thing, you won't fight for democracy, you're doomed 460 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 13: to lose it. Republicans are willing to rewrite these rules 461 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 13: to give themselves an advantage. Then they're leaving us no choice. 462 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 13: We must do the same. There's a phrase you get 463 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 13: to fight fire with fire. That is a true statement 464 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 13: of how we're feeling right now. 465 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: Genie, is the more fire strategy the right one here? 466 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, and we're hearing that strategy you mentioned Newsom Hocal Pritzker. 467 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 4: Also people like Holder, who famously has been against this 468 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 4: strategy until he is for it. Now, you know, the 469 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 4: party has no choice, as they see it. Once one 470 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 4: party goes down this direction, the other one is going 471 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 4: to follow, whether you like it or not. But I'm 472 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 4: not sure this makes the Republicans seem strong. We've seen 473 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 4: two examples in the last few days to me of 474 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 4: Donald Trump feeling very nervous. Number One, he gets bad 475 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 4: job numbers. He's so concerned he fires the messenger. Number Two, 476 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 4: it doesn't seem like they feel they can win the 477 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 4: mid term unless they rig the districts in Texas and 478 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 4: potentially other states. So to me, I think it screams 479 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 4: that the GOP has a bigger issue here than redistricting, 480 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 4: which is why can't they run fairly on their message? 481 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 4: And you were just talking to Representative Style about the 482 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 4: difficult count falls he and I'm sure other Republicans are 483 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 4: having as they go out to sell this wildly unpopular bill. 484 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 5: So I think this. 485 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 4: Scream's concern about holding the House because the public isn't 486 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 4: seeing what they've done so far in a positive light. 487 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 8: Well, it's of course, I mean it would potentially be 488 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 8: an issue either way with a majority of three or 489 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 8: whatever the Speaker is dealing with right now. Rick, you 490 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 8: mentioned nobody's ever won elected office beating the drum on jerrymandering. 491 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 8: But what do you make of the potential math at 492 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 8: hand here? Donald Trump is convinced if they redraw these maps, 493 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 8: add five seats they go red, Republicans keep the House. 494 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 8: Is that a dangerous bet? 495 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 12: Yeah, it's a dangerous bet. I mean, look, historically the 496 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 12: party in power loses, Yeah, twenty five thirty five seats, 497 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 12: I mean like five seats in Texas in that average 498 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 12: is not going to make a debt, and so you're 499 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 12: spending all this political capital to maybe win four or 500 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 12: five of those, right. I mean, like, I've seen so 501 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 12: many redistricting battles where you think you're going to pick 502 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 12: up seats and you don't, and so at the end 503 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 12: of the day, it's a high leverage situation. But look, 504 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 12: he's sitting on government, he's got two hundred million dollars 505 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 12: in a super pack, and he's got all these options, 506 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 12: and so why not trigger a few of these options. 507 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 12: It's not the first out of cycle redistricting Texas is done, 508 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 12: and arguably they picked up Republican seats. 509 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 8: Rick Davis and Genie Shanzano, Bloomberg Politics contributors. Many thanks 510 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 8: to both of you for a great conversation. Here on 511 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 8: the Monday edition of Balance of Power, we have breaking 512 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 8: news coming from NATO. In fact, the US ambassador to 513 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 8: NATO is going to join US ahead on providing weapons 514 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 8: to Ukraine. It's next on Bloomberg. 515 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 516 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 517 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: Alma Coarklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 518 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch 519 00:27:58,280 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: us live on YouTube. 520 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us on the Monday edition of 521 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 2: Balance of Power or We've covered some of the domestic 522 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 2: issues that are a buzz in Washington in the greater 523 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 2: political universe today, one being of course, the President's ability 524 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: now to appoint not just a new head of the 525 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: Bureau of Labor Statistics, but also a new Federal Reserve governor, 526 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 2: potentially impacting our economic path forward, but also, of course 527 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 2: the redistricting effort that the President himself is pushing in Texas. 528 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: President Trump also weighed in on American eagle in the 529 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: Sydney Sweeney Ad earlier today. We don't need to get 530 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: into that though. President Trump though not stopping there, as 531 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 2: he threatens today to raise tariffs on India for purchases 532 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: they continue to make of Russian oil. Of course, the 533 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: threat to impose things like higher tariffs or secondary sanctions 534 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 2: on countries that purchase Russian energy part of what has 535 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: been a bit of a tone shift from President Trump 536 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: when it comes to Russia's ongoing war with Ukraine. That, 537 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 2: of course, was further evidence last month as well by 538 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 2: an announcement that was made that the US would be 539 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: providing more weaponry to Ukraine, but that that would actually 540 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: be handled by NATO and that NATO countries Joe would 541 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: pay for it. And today we got the announcement of 542 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: the first country that is making such a purchase. 543 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 9: It's the Netherlands, that's right. 544 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 8: We had a lot of questions at the time about 545 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 8: how exactly this would work, but it's being laid out 546 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 8: before our eyes. They're calling it Pearl, I believe, is 547 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 8: the acronym priority. Ukraine requirements list a financing mechanism worth 548 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 8: about five hundred million euros about five hundred seventy eight 549 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 8: million dollars. Indeed, the Dutch are stepping up first here, 550 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 8: and we're lucky to have the US Ambassador to NATO 551 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 8: to help us understand a little bit more about this. 552 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 8: Matthew Whittaker is with us live from Brussels, and Ambassador, 553 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 8: it's great to have you back on Bloomberg TV and radio. 554 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 8: There was a reference here to patriot missiles. Will these 555 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 8: be essentially defensive weapons in this first trash for Ukraine. 556 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 14: Yeah, well, it's good to be with you. Miss. I'm 557 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 14: obviously exciting new something we've been working on since the 558 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 14: announcement last month. In the office where I was there 559 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 14: with President Trump and Secretary of General Ruta. And the 560 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 14: announcement of five hundred and seventy eight million dollars worth 561 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 14: of American weapons and munitions going to sold to the 562 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 14: Netherlands and then provided to Ukraine is a big step forward. 563 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 14: And this is probably the first announcement of many that 564 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 14: are going to be following on. But you know, we 565 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 14: I think should expect that, you know, weapons and munitions 566 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 14: obviously are defensive, especially when you're talking about patriot missile 567 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 14: and radar and those types of things. But you can 568 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 14: also you know, see that most expectedly there will be 569 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 14: things like artillery shells and bullets and ammunition. 570 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 2: And how quickly will all of that, ambassador be in 571 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 2: the hands of Ukraine. Now that this purchase has been announced. 572 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 14: Well, obviously we're moving out very fast, you know, and 573 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 14: expectation of this and after the announcement, the folks that 574 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 14: are doing the logistics have already had some of this 575 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 14: material in process, and so it's moving in the typical 576 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 14: channels that you would expect. You know, I just want 577 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 14: to say that, you know, while this announcement of the 578 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 14: Netherlands purchasing American equipment is important. Remember why they're doing this. 579 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 14: It's because Ukraine wants American equipment. Ukraine wants our weapons 580 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 14: and our ammunition because it's the best in the world, 581 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 14: and you know, a lot of it is manufacturing in 582 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 14: the United States, and that's why. You know, one of 583 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 14: the things that I'm working on here in NATO is 584 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 14: to make sure that American manufacturing continues to thrive and 585 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 14: grow and expand. And you know, those are those are 586 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 14: really hand and glove as to what we're doing in 587 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 14: the work we're doing here to make sure that Europe 588 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 14: can ultimately defend itself long term. 589 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 8: Well, let's talk more about that, because there was a 590 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 8: concern about our own stock piles here, which is why 591 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 8: at one point at least that was the justification by 592 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 8: the Pentagon for halting temporarily weapons shipments to Ukraine, because 593 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 8: we were getting down to concerning levels at this point here. 594 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 8: If we're in fact providing more weaponry to Ukraine, realizing 595 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 8: that others are paying for it, is there a limit 596 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 8: to what we can send? 597 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 14: Well, yes there is, and we want to make sure 598 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 14: that the United States is never at a strategic disadvantage 599 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 14: or puts ourselves in a vulnerable position, and so what 600 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 14: we're providing is what would be considered excess in addition 601 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 14: to what we need to defend ourselves strategically. But at 602 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,479 Speaker 14: the same time, we're still manufacturing. Whether it's you know, 603 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 14: missiles that go with the Patriots system, or whether it's 604 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 14: artillery shells or everything in between. All of these armaments 605 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 14: are continued to be manufactured in the United States and 606 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 14: quite frankly all across the NATO Alliance. And so we 607 00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 14: see the need in Ukraine. We've then, you know, people 608 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 14: at the Pentagon, especially the generals that manage a lot 609 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 14: of these important programs, looked and determined what we could 610 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 14: sell to our NATO allies and then they could provide 611 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 14: them to Ukraine. 612 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: As you see it, Ambassador, when we considered the situation 613 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 2: in Ukraine and a war that Russia has signaled no 614 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 2: desire to stop at this time, despite the President's consistent 615 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 2: push for a ceasefire, are sanctions needed to supplement this 616 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 2: further weaponry, even secondary sanctions perhaps which the President has 617 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 2: suggested could go into place as soon as the end 618 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: of this week with the ten day deadline he announced 619 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: last week. 620 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 14: Yeah, well, President Trump's been clear that this war needs 621 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 14: to end. That the death and carnage and slaughter we're 622 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 14: seeing on the battlefield every single day, where thousands of 623 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 14: soldiers are dying, and you know, of course the attacks 624 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 14: into some cities inside Ukraine as well, where civilians are 625 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 14: ending up being casually it needs to end. There's no 626 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 14: resolution on the battlefield. A diplomatic solution is the only way. 627 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,439 Speaker 14: And President Trump is creating the environment that Russia will 628 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 14: come to the table and negotiate a ceasefire because that's 629 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 14: what's necessary in the killing. And I think secondary sanctions 630 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,879 Speaker 14: and tariffs against those that are paying for this war, 631 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 14: like China, India and Brazil by buying the oil that 632 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 14: Russia is producing is an obvious next step to try 633 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 14: to bring this war to an end. And we'll see. 634 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 14: You know, President Trump said just the other day that 635 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 14: Russia is very good at avoiding sanctions and evading these things. 636 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 14: But I think this is going to really hit them 637 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 14: where it counts, and that is in their main revenue source, 638 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 14: which is the sale of oil to these countries. And 639 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 14: so President Trump, you know, is playing this card. You know, 640 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 14: if Russia can't negotiate a ceasefire, but at the same time, 641 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,439 Speaker 14: you know, Russia just needs to end this war. They're 642 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 14: not going to win on the battlefield. They're making marginal, 643 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 14: if any gains, and they had they've really been struggling 644 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 14: because of the situation on the front line. And so 645 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 14: we just need to end this war. And I think 646 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 14: these sanctions are the next step. But again, President Trump's 647 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 14: going to continue to work on creating the environment that's 648 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 14: necessary to bring rush to the table and to get 649 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 14: a ceasefire. 650 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 8: Is there anything when we consider the weapons shipments that 651 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 8: we will not send to Ukraine? Ambassador, I remember the 652 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 8: big debates that we had over the shipping of F 653 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 8: sixteen's providing M one abrams tanks, attack them, missiles and 654 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 8: so forth. If somebody else is placed in the order 655 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 8: and doing the buying, do we care what they get? 656 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 14: Well, obviously, I'd say the rule number one is the 657 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 14: United States will not make ourselves strategically vulnerable in any way. 658 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,439 Speaker 14: So we're not going to you know, cut too deep 659 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 14: or or give amounts or sell amounts that are going 660 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 14: to put us at a strategic disadvantage. But you know, 661 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 14: we're going to make sure that Ukraine has everything they 662 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 14: need to defend themselves. They have like the way the 663 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 14: US air defense systems especially have performed, as they're every 664 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 14: night attacked by drones and missiles and all the things 665 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 14: that Russia is sending their way. And so I mean, 666 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 14: they obviously want more of those systems because they know 667 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,439 Speaker 14: they work and they know that they're very successful in 668 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 14: eliminating those threats. But at the same time, you know, 669 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 14: they need to be able to defend themselves on the 670 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 14: front line where they're encountering the Russians and the waves 671 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 14: of poorly trained Russian soldiers that are being paid a 672 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 14: significant amount of money and expectation that most likely they're 673 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 14: going to die. It's really a sad situation on the 674 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 14: front line, and we just need to end it. President 675 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 14: Trump sees that for what it is, and you know, 676 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 14: let's just hope that as we take steps into August here, 677 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 14: we can get this war to a ceaspar. 678 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: Ambassador, just quickly before we let you go, President Trump 679 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 2: announced on Friday that he would be deploying two nuclear 680 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 2: subs into an appropriate region in order to counteract what 681 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 2: he saw is escalatory rhetoric coming from Russia. Can you 682 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 2: confirm whether or not those subs actually have been deployed 683 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 2: and DONATO allies worry about that kind of escalatory move No. 684 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 14: I'm not going to confirm our strategic movement of any submarines. Obviously, 685 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 14: that's one of the many systems we have available that 686 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 14: make us very strong as a country and provide the 687 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 14: necessary strategic ambiguity that we can move things around. And 688 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 14: submarines obviously are very important to what's in our arsenal. 689 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 14: But there's no reason for me to talk about any 690 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 14: of those things right now. 691 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 4: I had to ask it. 692 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 8: Matthew Whitaker, Thank you so much, US ambassador to NATO. 693 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 8: It's great to have you with us. Hear and appreciate 694 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 8: the update here on weapons for Ukraine. As we had 695 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 8: the voice of Michelle jim Risco, Bloomberg's White House National 696 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,720 Speaker 8: Security Editor with us back at the table in Washington. Michelle, 697 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 8: it's great to see you. We just kind of covered 698 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 8: the bases with the ambassador here. But this is a 699 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 8: pretty significant update. Having had so many questions about the 700 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 8: way this program would work, or whether it would work 701 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 8: at all, what does it tell us that the Netherlands 702 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 8: are first and are there any limits to this program? 703 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 10: Well, I you know that remains to be seen as 704 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 10: so many developments in this space. I mean, I think 705 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 10: you heard from the ambassador that it's such a sense 706 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 10: of urgency right now they're underscoring in terms of trying 707 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 10: to end the war. And you see all these kind 708 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 10: of crosshairs getting involved in this from you know, the 709 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 10: trade tariffs as well, and we were talking about India earlier, 710 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 10: and also the urgency of resources. And of course, notwithstanding 711 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 10: the ambassador and others hesitance to give away too much 712 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 10: in terms of the strategy and military details, we do 713 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 10: know that, you know, they're trying to figure out how 714 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 10: to move these assets and to maintain you know, support 715 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 10: for Ukraine while also not escalating. As Kaylee mentioned. 716 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 2: Well on India, the threat of higher tariffs of an 717 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 2: amount that he did not specify, is that likely to 718 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 2: change India's behavior? Are they signaling they're going to stop 719 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 2: purchasing Russian oil? 720 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 10: I think we're seeing the very high bar that successive 721 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 10: US presidents have dealt with in trying to persuade India 722 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 10: on a moralistic line in terms of purchases. I mean, 723 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 10: I can remember even two years ago now when we 724 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 10: were having this conversation with Indian Energy Minister at the 725 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 10: time about the Russian oil purchases and the US is 726 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,439 Speaker 10: distained for it, and he had something to say about 727 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 10: how it was an altruism, it's not philanthropy. They know 728 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 10: they're making these purchases for their domestic population, the most 729 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 10: populous nation in the world, on the basis of pragmatism, 730 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 10: and they're just not going to budge right now on that. 731 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,439 Speaker 8: Well that's important because the President says they don't care 732 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 8: how many people in Ukraine are being killed by the 733 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 8: Russian war machine. First of all, remarkable to hear him 734 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 8: use that the phrase Russian war machine. I'm not sure 735 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 8: we would have heard that even weeks ago. But to 736 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 8: the point that India is being framed this way by 737 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 8: the President would suggest that they've talked about this. Did 738 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 8: this come up with Modi? 739 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 10: Well, we can't get inside, you know, his head on 740 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 10: the conversations he's personally had with Modi, but we do know, 741 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 10: of course, he's had warm relations with the Indian leader 742 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 10: for some time, I mean dating back to campaign trail, 743 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 10: you know, meetings and events and that sort of thing. 744 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 10: So it really just does again underscore, you know, the 745 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 10: toughness which which India's is using you know, their leverage 746 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 10: and saying no, we're not going to sway on this. 747 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 10: And by the way, we don't appreciate they said in 748 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 10: a statement last hour that you know, the EU and 749 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 10: the US are being somewhat hypocritical in this, and they're 750 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,959 Speaker 10: pointing to you know, purchases of different goods by those 751 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 10: two entities too, so from Russia. So there's a lot 752 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 10: of you know, war of words going on right now, 753 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 10: and it's you know, the India tariff deal is just 754 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 10: one thing that's being caught in this sense of urgency 755 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 10: that Trump has renewed over ending the war in Ukraine 756 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 10: that he, by the way, campaigned on finishing on day one. 757 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 10: So we'll see. 758 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty four hours was a promise at one point. 759 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 2: Michelle Jean Risco Bloomberg White a National security editor, thank 760 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:02,959 Speaker 2: you so much. 761 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 8: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make 762 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 8: sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, 763 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 8: or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find 764 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 8: us live every weekday from Washington, DC at Noontimeeastern at 765 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 8: Bloomberg dot com.