WEBVTT - Charming Men: The Smiths vs. The Cure 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:14.480 Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone, 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.000 and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.639 feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:22.440 I'm Jordan, and today we're gonna take a look at 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.040 the feud between Morrissey of The Smith's and Robert Smith 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.000 of The Cure. The rivalry means a lot to people 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:29.960 because both of these bands spoke to those of us 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:32.640 who felt alienated and lonely in our teens, which, as 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:36.519 hardcore music fans is probably most of us. We bonded 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:38.280 with one or both of these bands in a really 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:41.120 special way. And well, that's true that you could easily 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:43.640 enjoy both. I know that everybody had their favorite. I 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:45.720 think this rivalry is significant because it's not just the 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.040 case of two bands who exist in the same lane 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.720 being unwillingly pitted against each other as rivals. The lead 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.520 singers of these bands actually hated each other. I mean, 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.320 I forget Oasis versus Blur, this is the original battle 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.400 of British pop rock bands warring with each other in 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.120 the press, and in spite of their reputations as like 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.440 these like moby goth rockers, these guys were actually really 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.000 funny when they were insulting each other. Oh yeah, they 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.440 were Gallagher Brothers level, I mean, and I was never 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.040 able to figure out how real it was though. I mean, 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.280 I know they were competitive on some level, sort of 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.240 battling it out for a subsection of the post punk 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:27.080 late era new wave sound, especially with their fighting social commentary. 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.720 But I also think that Smith and especially Morrissey have 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.399 a touch of the David Crosby where they loved just 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.880 playing up their missanthropy by saying really outrageously awful things 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.360 about people in the press for for attention and headlines. 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:42.759 And you know, it makes me wonder if did they 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.319 even mean it. I mean, because they both admitted as much. 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:47.920 Morrissey once said I lie a lot. It's really useful, 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.200 and Robert Smith said I lie a lot, especially in interviews. 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.400 So in my gut, I feel like that's got to 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:56.960 be at play at some level in this too. Yeah, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:58.880 I mean, I think that's true. I'm sure there was 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.600 some exaggeration going on here, but I also feel like 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.400 there was some genuine dislike and I think it's sent 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.080 for Morrissey in the nineteen eighties being seen as this 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.320 poet and true artist and Robert Smith being depicted as 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:14.200 this like melodramatic, more adolescent guy. And it's been fascinating 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.440 for me to see like this shift over the past 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.840 several decades where I feel like, in many ways Robert 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.680 Smith now has the level of respect that Morrissey used 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.640 to have. Of course, let's do mostly to Morrissey's saying 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:30.880 many awful things and self sabotaging his reputation. Yeah, that's 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.480 that's definitely a major factor. I don't know. To me, 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.320 talking about both these bands, it almost makes me uncomfortable 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:38.360 in the way because it conjures up these memories of 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:40.920 such a weird time in my life personally, all that 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.440 like angsty adolescent stuff. I'm sure other people fail that 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.720 way too, And I almost wonder if that sensation had 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.920 an adverse effect on the reputation of The Cure in particular, 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.519 because for a time it was a band you're almost 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.600 embarrassed to admit that he liked because it was so 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.440 linked to this painful, awkward adolescent period that we all 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:00.880 went through. But ultimately you said, I think that the 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:02.920 Cure benefited from that, and now we look back on 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.320 them fondly because the music was always there for us 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.200 during this crucial time, and the Cure of you know, 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.519 received the recognition they deserved. They were inducted in the 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.440 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in twenty nine. And 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.079 what's more, they survived to watch Morrissey to send into 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.480 a right wing parody of himself. So that's a win. Yeah, 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.200 you mentioned the Cure getting into the Rock and Roll 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:22.359 Hall of Fame, and the Smiths are not in the 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:23.959 rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which I think is 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.639 a major crime. They deserve to be in there. But 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.000 you know, I'm sure if you ask Morrisey about this, 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.480 he would say he doesn't care, or he would at 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.880 least claim that he doesn't care. But I like to 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:35.800 think that this is something that Robert Smith can lord 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.200 over him if they ever bump into each other on 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.680 like the post punk senior citizen circuit. But we're getting 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:43.840 ahead of ourselves. There's so much to explore here, So 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:49.120 without further ado, let's get into this mess. I think 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.280 it's important to begin with a very crucial fact, and 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:55.960 that's that Stephen Patrick Morrissey hates an awful lot of stuff. Yeah, 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.280 he hates everything, he really does. I mean I just 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:00.280 want to take a quick moment to demonstrate this point. 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:05.120 Morrissey hates meat, roller coasters, rain, cold weather, dance music. 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.360 He's called rave music a refuge for the mentally deficient 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.640 and described long long hair as an unpartable offense which 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.480 should be punishable by death. Yeah, that's rationale. He He 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.760 hates the music of Stevie Wonder, which I think might 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.440 be a first in human history. Who hates Stevie Wonder? 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.920 I gotta speculate it's maybe because Stevie Wonder's name is 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.919 Stephen and Stephen Patrick. Morrissey hates his birth name, apparently 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.480 reminds him of Steve Austin from the TV series The 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.200 six Million Dollar Man, which also hates. He doesn't like 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.120 the name Steve. I know, yeah, you got you got 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.520 some things to saying that, Steve. Yeah, it's getting personal now, Morrissey. 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.040 He hates Kate Bush, saying the nicest thing I can 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.440 say about her is that she's unbearable. That voice such trash. 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.160 He hates Bob Geldof, calling him a nauseating character. He 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.840 hates so many people that the list is too long 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.279 for me to even read over here. Quite tellingly, his 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.440 first solo LP after the Smith's disbanded was called Viva Hate, 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.720 and he's ever denied being, you know, seriously missingthropic, saying 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.320 in one early interview, I hate most people, and I 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.800 don't want to. It's an awful way to be. But 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:13.600 the human race gives me no comfort. Oh my god. 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.600 And to illustrate this point, when he smelled meat being 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.679 cooked when he's performing at Coachella in two thousand nine, 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:23.119 he famously said, I can smell burning flesh. I hope 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.080 to God it's human. So this is the level of 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.160 the person we're dealing with, and he's either an Olympian 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.760 level missingthrope or a great a outrageous quote machine. His 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.520 lyrics would suggest a combination of the two. So as 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.960 far as his conflict with Robert Smith goes, it starts 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.440 really at the beginning of Morrissey's career. It's he's giving 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.000 an interview with the magazine The Face, and the reporter 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.200 asked this question, if I put you in a room 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.760 with Robert Smith, markis Smith of the Fall in a 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.800 loaded Smith and Wesson, who would bite the bullet first? Now, 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.600 before we get to Morrissey's answer here, I think it's 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.920 clear from the construction of this question that the idea 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.800 is to name a bunch of people named Smith because 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.640 Morrissey isn't a band called the Smith's. It's not really 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.080 about Robert Smith or the Cure particularly. I mean, it's 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.760 not known yet really how Morrissey feels about that band. 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.119 It's really just a jokey question to ask Morrisey, where 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:15.880 you know, you're setting the ball on the t for 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.479 him to say something outrageous. And of course Morrissey can 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.840 never resist the bait here as he ever turned the 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.640 other cheek. Morrissey, I don't think he's ever turned down 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.680 an opportunity to slay someone off, absolutely, which makes him 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.159 a terrible person, but it makes him perfect for this show. 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.080 So I guess I have to thank Morrissey for that. 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.800 But Morrissey says, and this is maybe like like the 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.760 worst possible answer from like a humanist perspective, but like 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.840 it's a very funny answer. He says, I'd line them 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:46.120 up so that one bullet would penetrate them simultaneously. At 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.960 any rate, it's rather curious that he began wearing beads 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.400 at the emergence of the Smiths. This is Morrissey's saying 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.960 of Robert Smith, and he's been photographed with flowers, and 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:55.520 of course this is a reference to the fact that 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:59.040 early in his career Morrissey would come on stage holding daffodils. 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.200 So there's the implication that Robert Smith is somehow ripping 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.640 him off. And he says, I expect he's quite supportive 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:06.920 what we do, but I've never liked the cure, not 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:11.120 even the caterpillar, not even the Yeah, exactly, I'm curious, 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.360 like why he's singled out the caterpillar as like it 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:16.560 being amazing. That doesn't even like that song, Like I 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.400 I don't think of that as necessarily being like the 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.200 most popular cure song or the most accessible cure song, 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:24.800 but or the most like the Smith's cure song. Yeah, 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.520 I couldn't figure that right. It's kind of weird, But 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.160 at any rate, the point is is that Morrissey would 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.880 murder Robert Smith have given the opportunity, and he thinks 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.200 that he's ripping him off. So that is what has 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.480 been established in this interview. And this quote gets back 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.280 to Robert Smith, who fired back in kind. He said, 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:46.520 Morrissey is so depressing if he doesn't off himself soon 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:52.239 I probably will. Yes, it's just beautiful Winston Churchill level 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.760 insult right there, very very good. Years later, when he's 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.760 looking back on the Morrissey feud, Robert Smith also said, 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:00.600 you know, I would have expect it at the time, 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.640 him being a non meat eating, vegetarian, pacifist sort of guy, 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.160 to say I choose to shoot myself or I choose 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.240 to shoot no one. But he said I'd lined them 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:10.000 all up and shoot them all. When I was told 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.440 that at the time, I kind of took umberge. I 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.680 thought that's fucking nice. And then he drops a c 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.000 bomb because he's Robert Smith. Um, it seemed like if 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.600 he's genuinely pretty hurt by this whole exchange. I mean, 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.000 he said it was, you know, not unnecessary. I've never 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.920 said or done anything to morris See and the according 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:27.480 to Robert Smith, at least at that point, they've never 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.600 even been in the same room together. Yeah, you know, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.600 I'm gonna tip my hand here as being more sympathetic 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.160 generally to Robert Smith. And I think I'm probably a 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.480 bigger Cure fan than I am a fan of the Smith's, 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.520 even though I love both bands. But it really is 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.880 amazing to me that Robert Smith generally comes off as 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.559 like relatively normal and level headed in his interviews, which 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.800 you wouldn't necessarily expect necessarily if you just listen to 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:53.120 his music, or like you see him on stage. Obviously 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.040 he's wearing all the makeup. He always seems miserable in 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.040 his music, but then when he's talking to reporters, he 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.480 seems like a pretty normal guy. Yeah, exactly. He's like, 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:05.720 he's funny and he just sounds reasonable. Whereas with Morrissey, 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.960 the more interviews he's done in his career, the crazier 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.360 and more irrational he becomes. It's like he's already pretty 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.960 melodramatic in his lyrics, but like he just is so awful, 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.160 Like the more he talks so in terms of like 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.880 their personal dispositions, I feel like that's like a defining 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.880 difference between these guys. Yeah, I mean, Robert Smith would 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:26.800 claim in later years that he was confused why there 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.320 was even a comparison between the care and the Smiths. 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.360 Uh it said, there's nothing that links Morrissey and the 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:33.640 Care In my mind, as years go by, it's very 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:35.800 easy to think we were from the same generation, but 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.040 we're not, and he's right. I mean, the Cure recorded 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.480 their first album ight, and the Smith's released their self 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.480 titled debut in four which is kind of a different 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.720 mini generation in a way. And I think that the 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.840 Smith's stuff sounded maybe more like early Care albums, But 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:51.920 by the time the Smiths came around, they were doing 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.920 sort of more synth based, moody, darker, the head on 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.000 the door type stuff that really didn't sound very similar 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.160 to the Smith's at all to me, at least. Again, 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.160 I love both bands. To me, it is natural to 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.760 compare them. I understand that the Cure started earlier. They 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:11.679 are really part of that post punk generation that really emerged, 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:13.960 you know, after the sex Pistols in the Clash, you know, 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:16.079 in the late seventies. But I think the reason that 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.360 they get grouped together is that the same kind of 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.040 person loves both bands, you know, as like, if you 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.120 love the Smiths, you probably love the Cure, and vice versa. 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:26.679 And they just both have I think, a very kind 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:31.400 of quintessentially like eighties alternative rock vibe to them. You know. Again, 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:33.640 even though the Cure started earlier, they didn't really come 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.280 into their own until the nineteen eighties. Like with those 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.800 albums that you mentioned, Head on the Door obviously, kiss Me, 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.199 kiss Me, Kiss Me, and then I think hitting their 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.160 culmination like their peak with Disintegration in nine. What I 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:46.960 think is interesting about these bands in terms of how 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.560 they perceived critically is that I think that the Smiths 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:53.560 for years had this reputation as being a smarter band. Uh. 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:55.720 They were the band that I think critics tended to 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.360 rate higher than the Cure. The Queen is Dead as 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.240 a record that you're much more likely to see near 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.360 the top of like Greatest Albums of All Times lists 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.840 than you are Disintegration, for instance, even though if given 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.680 the choice, I would take Disintegration personally over The Queen 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.320 is Dead. The strength to me of the Smiths is singles. 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.200 I think they're singles. Collections are excellent, and they have 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:21.600 so many songs that I would say are just like 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:24.400 perfect songs. There's a light that never goes out and 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.240 in Glove how Soon is Now? I mean, there's just 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.960 so many wonderful singles that they have, Whereas I look 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.280 at The Cure as being more of an album band 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.360 like they have I think several albums that hold together 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.480 as statements, whereas again, I think the Smiths you have 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:40.920 The Queen is Dead, and then there are other albums 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:42.400 to me, are a little spotty here and it's much 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.240 more about singles. I also think the Cure you have 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.760 to give them credit for their longevity. You know, they 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.320 were around before the Smiths, and they were around after 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.920 the Smiths, And this is another thing that gets overshadowed 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.320 the Cure. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but to me, 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.080 they were a much more popular band, especially in America, 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.120 Like I feel like at her peak, like weren't that 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:04.320 you're playing arenas basically like by the time of disintegration, Like, 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.080 I don't think the Smith's ever got to that kind 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.600 of level, at least here in the United States. Yeah, 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.600 And I wonder if that worked against them becoming almost 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.520 more of this like populist favorite. I'm sure Morrissey could 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:17.000 throw that back in their face in a lot of 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.240 ways too. I always thought that the Smiths seemed like 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.720 it was for a more discerning music fan. I always 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.920 seem more literate. They tackled social issues, you know, meet 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:27.319 his murder, The Queen is Dead. In ways, I don't 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.679 think the Cure ever really did. I think Robert Smith 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.920 was mostly writing about himself, and I think that in 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:34.920 some ways is one of their great strengths because when 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.240 he's describing how he's feeling, some often that resonates with 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:39.839 all of us, depending on what we're going through in 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.480 our lives. But I think that also you could argue 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.280 that Robert Smith seemed a lot more kind of like 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.280 naval gazey and self obsessed too, and I think that 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.680 that was the fact that they didn't really look outward 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:52.760 quite as much as the Smith's I think ding them 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.840 definitely at the time, you know, in in uh Thatcher 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.319 era England, especially when there was sort of a lot 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.040 to rail against. That was always fascinating to me that 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.160 that's sort of the political element of their music. I 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.120 just wonder to what degree Robert Smith internalized the critical 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.760 conversation around both bands, because and this is something I'm 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.440 sure he would never admit to personally. But you know, again, 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.520 like by the end of the eighties, the Cure like 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.360 had like a legitimate pop hit with love Song. You know, 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:20.680 love Song, I believe was like a top five hit 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:22.520 just for them, And of course that song has been 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.640 covered by so many artists since then. I mean, it 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.640 was on one of the Adele Records, which I'm sure 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:33.160 bought Robert Smith, like ten houses, you know, just a 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.959 ton of money, I'm sure from that cover. But again, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.000 I feel like for a long time people just took 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.480 the Smiths more seriously while also dinging The Cure for 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:45.640 being again this kind of like adolescent angsty naval gayzey band. 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:47.880 And you know, there's an interview that Robert Smith gave 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.320 I think it pretty much at the height of The 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.920 Cure's popularity, where he took a shot at Morrissey and 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.640 he says he's a precious, miserable bastard. He's all the 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.080 things people think I am. And I think that's a 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.600 very telling quote because I'm sure Robert Smith felt like, oh, 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.240 people are you know, they have this caricature of me 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.640 that I'm just like this sad, bastard guy, and that's 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.680 preventing some people from you know, giving me my due 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.320 as like a great songwriter. Like people talk about Morrisey 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.440 being a great songwriter, but like I like, I'm a 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.800 great songwriter too, and I asked to write my own 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.200 music too. But I don't get that kind of love 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.160 from critics. They don't look at me as a tomb Smith. 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.280 They look at me as just like this miserable guy, 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.000 But it's like, what about this other guy, Like he's 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.960 just as miserable as me, if not more so, right, 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:36.920 I mean Robert Smith incredible guitarist, producer and wrote all 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.800 the Cures music, And I agree with that. And also 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.040 I think there's a case of maybe like you just 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.880 like someone because you see elements of yourself and them 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.560 that that you don't like about yourself. So maybe there 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.040 was some of that too. It's like no, no, no, no, 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.760 I'm not that bad, it said him. Look at him, 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.160 He's even worse than me. So yeah, I could see 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.040 it being your way as well, being like no, come on, 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.400 like this is Morrissey actually is a miserable bastard and 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.360 I do so much more. But also maybe there's some 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:06.520 of it just was he worried it did hit too 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.360 close to home. He did see elements of himself that 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.960 he didn't like. So these two ended up continuing to 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.520 snap at each other even after the Smith's broke up. 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:15.880 And you know I alluded to this earlier. I mean 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.360 the Smith's window of time, Like really, isn't that big? 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.920 I mean they were basically a force in British music 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.640 for about five years in the mid nineteen eighties. By 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:27.040 the end of the eighties, they're finished Johnny Marr, who 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.160 is a genius guitar player, and I feel like he 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:31.560 doesn't get as much credit as he deserves. And that 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.960 Morrissey mar songwriting partnership, just like the wonderful music that 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.120 he wrote for those songs. By the way, we have 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.600 to do a Morrissey versus mar episode at some point 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.720 that will be amazing. But anyway, like even after the 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.200 Smith's broke up, Morrissey and Robert Smith continue to take 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.800 shots at each other. There's this great interview. I feel 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.800 like it's like a pretty famous quote where Robert Smith 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.600 was talking about how, you know, Morrissey is this animal 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.560 rights activist and how that runs counter to just how 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.120 awful he is to human beings, you know, like he 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.320 cares more about animals than he does about human beings. 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.080 And Robert Smith says, this is a great quote. He says, 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.480 if Morrisey says not to eat meat, then I'm going 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.720 to eat meat. That's how much I hate Morrison, which 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.680 possibly my favorite quote of this whole thing. That's great. 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.920 And then Morrissey of course shoots back. He said, Robert 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:23.760 Smith is a fat clown with makeup, weeping over a guitar. Uh. 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.280 Just like I feel like the Robert Smith quote is 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.480 like a little more self aware. You know, he's almost 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.800 like making fun of himself a little bit for how 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.400 much It's like, I'm just reacting against anything that he 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.520 does just because this guy annoys me, whereas Morrissey is 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.520 just like being directly insulting of like, you know, he's 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.880 calling him fat, you know, he's saying he's weeping over 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:44.800 a guitar. And Robert Smith, of course he has a 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.720 shoot back, you know. He there was an interview that 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.560 he did around this time with the magazine Zone zero 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.160 nine where he was talking about his status as a 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.920 godfather of goth and he doesn't really like that distinction, 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:56.920 and he says, I'm tired of being known as a 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:00.280 doomy goth casualty. The press tries to portray me as 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.280 a gloom and doom singer. But take a look at Morrissey. 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:08.439 Batman is a professional complainer. Um. So, you know, just 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:10.120 going back to what I was saying before, I think 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.080 this idea, I think that annoyed him, that he was 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.840 caricatured in this way that I don't think Morrissey was 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.520 to the same degree at that time. I think that, 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.600 you know, Morrissey definitely was known as this moby artist. 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.600 But I feel like his songwriting partnership with Johnny Marr, 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.240 I think people are certainly critics they treated that with 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.399 a degree of seriousness, almost like likening them to like 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.640 Lennon McCartney, you know, like the Lennon McCartney of their era. 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:36.560 That I don't think they did that with Robert Smith. 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:38.399 I don't feel like he got the credit that he 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.879 deserved as a songwriter at that time, because yeah, you know, 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.119 the Cure had a very distinct image. But you know, 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.439 if you look at their albums, I mean he's writing 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.040 all these great songs, and you know, as great as 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.080 the Smith's are as a singles act, I should mention. 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.600 I mean Standing on a Beach their compilation of their 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.959 eighties singles, that's like a defining document of like early 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.280 alternative rock. I mean, he wrote a lot of great 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.440 singles too. I think he just felt like, hey, recognize 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.159 my talent, don't just look at the makeup in like 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.159 the crazy hair, Like I am producing great material at 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.080 this time my favorite Robert Smith story from this period, 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.320 and it might not be true, but I choose to 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.119 believe it. Have been having trouble source in the quotes 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.640 for this, but Robert Smith said, I remember running into 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.159 Morrissey at a Halloween party or something. I went to 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.000 punch him on the arm, and he just closed his 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:27.000 eyes and started crying seeing that. I mean, I'm just 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.280 imagining a scenario where like Morrissey would go to anyone's 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.600 Halloween part, right, yeah, And would you do something or 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:35.960 would he just be Robert Smith? Of course not, I 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.159 could see Robert Smith going into a Halloween party. I mean, 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.320 like Morrissey. Morrissey would never go to a Halloween party. 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.000 That's the only reason I doubt this story, because I'm 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:46.560 just I'm just trying to imagine a scenario like who's 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.240 holding the Halloween party? Who would be friends with both 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.400 of these guys and get them both to show up 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.320 right and make the mistake of inviting them both? Yeah, 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:56.600 I mean is that like, uh, you know, I'm just 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.479 trying to think of like prominent eighties stars, is like 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.320 Sting having this party is like Bono or like George Michael, 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:05.840 you know, like who would be having that party said. 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.560 That's the only reason I doubt that story. Otherwise, I'm 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.600 like you, I would rather believe it than disbelieve it. 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.320