Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and
Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan, and today we're gonna take a look at
Speaker 1: the feud between Morrissey of The Smith's and Robert Smith
Speaker 1: of The Cure. The rivalry means a lot to people
Speaker 1: because both of these bands spoke to those of us
Speaker 1: who felt alienated and lonely in our teens, which, as
Speaker 1: hardcore music fans is probably most of us. We bonded
Speaker 1: with one or both of these bands in a really
Speaker 1: special way. And well, that's true that you could easily
Speaker 1: enjoy both. I know that everybody had their favorite. I
Speaker 1: think this rivalry is significant because it's not just the
Speaker 1: case of two bands who exist in the same lane
Speaker 1: being unwillingly pitted against each other as rivals. The lead
Speaker 1: singers of these bands actually hated each other. I mean,
Speaker 1: I forget Oasis versus Blur, this is the original battle
Speaker 1: of British pop rock bands warring with each other in
Speaker 1: the press, and in spite of their reputations as like
Speaker 1: these like moby goth rockers, these guys were actually really
Speaker 1: funny when they were insulting each other. Oh yeah, they
Speaker 1: were Gallagher Brothers level, I mean, and I was never
Speaker 1: able to figure out how real it was though. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know they were competitive on some level, sort of
Speaker 1: battling it out for a subsection of the post punk
Speaker 1: late era new wave sound, especially with their fighting social commentary.
Speaker 1: But I also think that Smith and especially Morrissey have
Speaker 1: a touch of the David Crosby where they loved just
Speaker 1: playing up their missanthropy by saying really outrageously awful things
Speaker 1: about people in the press for for attention and headlines.
Speaker 1: And you know, it makes me wonder if did they
Speaker 1: even mean it. I mean, because they both admitted as much.
Speaker 1: Morrissey once said I lie a lot. It's really useful,
Speaker 1: and Robert Smith said I lie a lot, especially in interviews.
Speaker 1: So in my gut, I feel like that's got to
Speaker 1: be at play at some level in this too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's true. I'm sure there was
Speaker 1: some exaggeration going on here, but I also feel like
Speaker 1: there was some genuine dislike and I think it's sent
Speaker 1: for Morrissey in the nineteen eighties being seen as this
Speaker 1: poet and true artist and Robert Smith being depicted as
Speaker 1: this like melodramatic, more adolescent guy. And it's been fascinating
Speaker 1: for me to see like this shift over the past
Speaker 1: several decades where I feel like, in many ways Robert
Speaker 1: Smith now has the level of respect that Morrissey used
Speaker 1: to have. Of course, let's do mostly to Morrissey's saying
Speaker 1: many awful things and self sabotaging his reputation. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's definitely a major factor. I don't know. To me,
Speaker 1: talking about both these bands, it almost makes me uncomfortable
Speaker 1: in the way because it conjures up these memories of
Speaker 1: such a weird time in my life personally, all that
Speaker 1: like angsty adolescent stuff. I'm sure other people fail that
Speaker 1: way too, And I almost wonder if that sensation had
Speaker 1: an adverse effect on the reputation of The Cure in particular,
Speaker 1: because for a time it was a band you're almost
Speaker 1: embarrassed to admit that he liked because it was so
Speaker 1: linked to this painful, awkward adolescent period that we all
Speaker 1: went through. But ultimately you said, I think that the
Speaker 1: Cure benefited from that, and now we look back on
Speaker 1: them fondly because the music was always there for us
Speaker 1: during this crucial time, and the Cure of you know,
Speaker 1: received the recognition they deserved. They were inducted in the
Speaker 1: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in twenty nine. And
Speaker 1: what's more, they survived to watch Morrissey to send into
Speaker 1: a right wing parody of himself. So that's a win. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you mentioned the Cure getting into the Rock and Roll
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame, and the Smiths are not in the
Speaker 1: rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which I think is
Speaker 1: a major crime. They deserve to be in there. But
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure if you ask Morrisey about this,
Speaker 1: he would say he doesn't care, or he would at
Speaker 1: least claim that he doesn't care. But I like to
Speaker 1: think that this is something that Robert Smith can lord
Speaker 1: over him if they ever bump into each other on
Speaker 1: like the post punk senior citizen circuit. But we're getting
Speaker 1: ahead of ourselves. There's so much to explore here, So
Speaker 1: without further ado, let's get into this mess. I think
Speaker 1: it's important to begin with a very crucial fact, and
Speaker 1: that's that Stephen Patrick Morrissey hates an awful lot of stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he hates everything, he really does. I mean I just
Speaker 1: want to take a quick moment to demonstrate this point.
Speaker 1: Morrissey hates meat, roller coasters, rain, cold weather, dance music.
Speaker 1: He's called rave music a refuge for the mentally deficient
Speaker 1: and described long long hair as an unpartable offense which
Speaker 1: should be punishable by death. Yeah, that's rationale. He He
Speaker 1: hates the music of Stevie Wonder, which I think might
Speaker 1: be a first in human history. Who hates Stevie Wonder?
Speaker 1: I gotta speculate it's maybe because Stevie Wonder's name is
Speaker 1: Stephen and Stephen Patrick. Morrissey hates his birth name, apparently
Speaker 1: reminds him of Steve Austin from the TV series The
Speaker 1: six Million Dollar Man, which also hates. He doesn't like
Speaker 1: the name Steve. I know, yeah, you got you got
Speaker 1: some things to saying that, Steve. Yeah, it's getting personal now, Morrissey.
Speaker 1: He hates Kate Bush, saying the nicest thing I can
Speaker 1: say about her is that she's unbearable. That voice such trash.
Speaker 1: He hates Bob Geldof, calling him a nauseating character. He
Speaker 1: hates so many people that the list is too long
Speaker 1: for me to even read over here. Quite tellingly, his
Speaker 1: first solo LP after the Smith's disbanded was called Viva Hate,
Speaker 1: and he's ever denied being, you know, seriously missingthropic, saying
Speaker 1: in one early interview, I hate most people, and I
Speaker 1: don't want to. It's an awful way to be. But
Speaker 1: the human race gives me no comfort. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: And to illustrate this point, when he smelled meat being
Speaker 1: cooked when he's performing at Coachella in two thousand nine,
Speaker 1: he famously said, I can smell burning flesh. I hope
Speaker 1: to God it's human. So this is the level of
Speaker 1: the person we're dealing with, and he's either an Olympian
Speaker 1: level missingthrope or a great a outrageous quote machine. His
Speaker 1: lyrics would suggest a combination of the two. So as
Speaker 1: far as his conflict with Robert Smith goes, it starts
Speaker 1: really at the beginning of Morrissey's career. It's he's giving
Speaker 1: an interview with the magazine The Face, and the reporter
Speaker 1: asked this question, if I put you in a room
Speaker 1: with Robert Smith, markis Smith of the Fall in a
Speaker 1: loaded Smith and Wesson, who would bite the bullet first? Now,
Speaker 1: before we get to Morrissey's answer here, I think it's
Speaker 1: clear from the construction of this question that the idea
Speaker 1: is to name a bunch of people named Smith because
Speaker 1: Morrissey isn't a band called the Smith's. It's not really
Speaker 1: about Robert Smith or the Cure particularly. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: not known yet really how Morrissey feels about that band.
Speaker 1: It's really just a jokey question to ask Morrisey, where
Speaker 1: you know, you're setting the ball on the t for
Speaker 1: him to say something outrageous. And of course Morrissey can
Speaker 1: never resist the bait here as he ever turned the
Speaker 1: other cheek. Morrissey, I don't think he's ever turned down
Speaker 1: an opportunity to slay someone off, absolutely, which makes him
Speaker 1: a terrible person, but it makes him perfect for this show.
Speaker 1: So I guess I have to thank Morrissey for that.
Speaker 1: But Morrissey says, and this is maybe like like the
Speaker 1: worst possible answer from like a humanist perspective, but like
Speaker 1: it's a very funny answer. He says, I'd line them
Speaker 1: up so that one bullet would penetrate them simultaneously. At
Speaker 1: any rate, it's rather curious that he began wearing beads
Speaker 1: at the emergence of the Smiths. This is Morrissey's saying
Speaker 1: of Robert Smith, and he's been photographed with flowers, and
Speaker 1: of course this is a reference to the fact that
Speaker 1: early in his career Morrissey would come on stage holding daffodils.
Speaker 1: So there's the implication that Robert Smith is somehow ripping
Speaker 1: him off. And he says, I expect he's quite supportive
Speaker 1: what we do, but I've never liked the cure, not
Speaker 1: even the caterpillar, not even the Yeah, exactly, I'm curious,
Speaker 1: like why he's singled out the caterpillar as like it
Speaker 1: being amazing. That doesn't even like that song, Like I
Speaker 1: I don't think of that as necessarily being like the
Speaker 1: most popular cure song or the most accessible cure song,
Speaker 1: but or the most like the Smith's cure song. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I couldn't figure that right. It's kind of weird, But
Speaker 1: at any rate, the point is is that Morrissey would
Speaker 1: murder Robert Smith have given the opportunity, and he thinks
Speaker 1: that he's ripping him off. So that is what has
Speaker 1: been established in this interview. And this quote gets back
Speaker 1: to Robert Smith, who fired back in kind. He said,
Speaker 1: Morrissey is so depressing if he doesn't off himself soon
Speaker 1: I probably will. Yes, it's just beautiful Winston Churchill level
Speaker 1: insult right there, very very good. Years later, when he's
Speaker 1: looking back on the Morrissey feud, Robert Smith also said,
Speaker 1: you know, I would have expect it at the time,
Speaker 1: him being a non meat eating, vegetarian, pacifist sort of guy,
Speaker 1: to say I choose to shoot myself or I choose
Speaker 1: to shoot no one. But he said I'd lined them
Speaker 1: all up and shoot them all. When I was told
Speaker 1: that at the time, I kind of took umberge. I
Speaker 1: thought that's fucking nice. And then he drops a c
Speaker 1: bomb because he's Robert Smith. Um, it seemed like if
Speaker 1: he's genuinely pretty hurt by this whole exchange. I mean,
Speaker 1: he said it was, you know, not unnecessary. I've never
Speaker 1: said or done anything to morris See and the according
Speaker 1: to Robert Smith, at least at that point, they've never
Speaker 1: even been in the same room together. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tip my hand here as being more sympathetic
Speaker 1: generally to Robert Smith. And I think I'm probably a
Speaker 1: bigger Cure fan than I am a fan of the Smith's,
Speaker 1: even though I love both bands. But it really is
Speaker 1: amazing to me that Robert Smith generally comes off as
Speaker 1: like relatively normal and level headed in his interviews, which
Speaker 1: you wouldn't necessarily expect necessarily if you just listen to
Speaker 1: his music, or like you see him on stage. Obviously
Speaker 1: he's wearing all the makeup. He always seems miserable in
Speaker 1: his music, but then when he's talking to reporters, he
Speaker 1: seems like a pretty normal guy. Yeah, exactly. He's like,
Speaker 1: he's funny and he just sounds reasonable. Whereas with Morrissey,
Speaker 1: the more interviews he's done in his career, the crazier
Speaker 1: and more irrational he becomes. It's like he's already pretty
Speaker 1: melodramatic in his lyrics, but like he just is so awful,
Speaker 1: Like the more he talks so in terms of like
Speaker 1: their personal dispositions, I feel like that's like a defining
Speaker 1: difference between these guys. Yeah, I mean, Robert Smith would
Speaker 1: claim in later years that he was confused why there
Speaker 1: was even a comparison between the care and the Smiths.
Speaker 1: Uh it said, there's nothing that links Morrissey and the
Speaker 1: Care In my mind, as years go by, it's very
Speaker 1: easy to think we were from the same generation, but
Speaker 1: we're not, and he's right. I mean, the Cure recorded
Speaker 1: their first album ight, and the Smith's released their self
Speaker 1: titled debut in four which is kind of a different
Speaker 1: mini generation in a way. And I think that the
Speaker 1: Smith's stuff sounded maybe more like early Care albums, But
Speaker 1: by the time the Smiths came around, they were doing
Speaker 1: sort of more synth based, moody, darker, the head on
Speaker 1: the door type stuff that really didn't sound very similar
Speaker 1: to the Smith's at all to me, at least. Again,
Speaker 1: I love both bands. To me, it is natural to
Speaker 1: compare them. I understand that the Cure started earlier. They
Speaker 1: are really part of that post punk generation that really emerged,
Speaker 1: you know, after the sex Pistols in the Clash, you know,
Speaker 1: in the late seventies. But I think the reason that
Speaker 1: they get grouped together is that the same kind of
Speaker 1: person loves both bands, you know, as like, if you
Speaker 1: love the Smiths, you probably love the Cure, and vice versa.
Speaker 1: And they just both have I think, a very kind
Speaker 1: of quintessentially like eighties alternative rock vibe to them. You know. Again,
Speaker 1: even though the Cure started earlier, they didn't really come
Speaker 1: into their own until the nineteen eighties. Like with those
Speaker 1: albums that you mentioned, Head on the Door obviously, kiss Me,
Speaker 1: kiss Me, Kiss Me, and then I think hitting their
Speaker 1: culmination like their peak with Disintegration in nine. What I
Speaker 1: think is interesting about these bands in terms of how
Speaker 1: they perceived critically is that I think that the Smiths
Speaker 1: for years had this reputation as being a smarter band. Uh.
Speaker 1: They were the band that I think critics tended to
Speaker 1: rate higher than the Cure. The Queen is Dead as
Speaker 1: a record that you're much more likely to see near
Speaker 1: the top of like Greatest Albums of All Times lists
Speaker 1: than you are Disintegration, for instance, even though if given
Speaker 1: the choice, I would take Disintegration personally over The Queen
Speaker 1: is Dead. The strength to me of the Smiths is singles.
Speaker 1: I think they're singles. Collections are excellent, and they have
Speaker 1: so many songs that I would say are just like
Speaker 1: perfect songs. There's a light that never goes out and
Speaker 1: in Glove how Soon is Now? I mean, there's just
Speaker 1: so many wonderful singles that they have, Whereas I look
Speaker 1: at The Cure as being more of an album band
Speaker 1: like they have I think several albums that hold together
Speaker 1: as statements, whereas again, I think the Smiths you have
Speaker 1: The Queen is Dead, and then there are other albums
Speaker 1: to me, are a little spotty here and it's much
Speaker 1: more about singles. I also think the Cure you have
Speaker 1: to give them credit for their longevity. You know, they
Speaker 1: were around before the Smiths, and they were around after
Speaker 1: the Smiths, And this is another thing that gets overshadowed
Speaker 1: the Cure. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but to me,
Speaker 1: they were a much more popular band, especially in America,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like at her peak, like weren't that
Speaker 1: you're playing arenas basically like by the time of disintegration, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think the Smith's ever got to that kind
Speaker 1: of level, at least here in the United States. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I wonder if that worked against them becoming almost
Speaker 1: more of this like populist favorite. I'm sure Morrissey could
Speaker 1: throw that back in their face in a lot of
Speaker 1: ways too. I always thought that the Smiths seemed like
Speaker 1: it was for a more discerning music fan. I always
Speaker 1: seem more literate. They tackled social issues, you know, meet
Speaker 1: his murder, The Queen is Dead. In ways, I don't
Speaker 1: think the Cure ever really did. I think Robert Smith
Speaker 1: was mostly writing about himself, and I think that in
Speaker 1: some ways is one of their great strengths because when
Speaker 1: he's describing how he's feeling, some often that resonates with
Speaker 1: all of us, depending on what we're going through in
Speaker 1: our lives. But I think that also you could argue
Speaker 1: that Robert Smith seemed a lot more kind of like
Speaker 1: naval gazey and self obsessed too, and I think that
Speaker 1: that was the fact that they didn't really look outward
Speaker 1: quite as much as the Smith's I think ding them
Speaker 1: definitely at the time, you know, in in uh Thatcher
Speaker 1: era England, especially when there was sort of a lot
Speaker 1: to rail against. That was always fascinating to me that
Speaker 1: that's sort of the political element of their music. I
Speaker 1: just wonder to what degree Robert Smith internalized the critical
Speaker 1: conversation around both bands, because and this is something I'm
Speaker 1: sure he would never admit to personally. But you know, again,
Speaker 1: like by the end of the eighties, the Cure like
Speaker 1: had like a legitimate pop hit with love Song. You know,
Speaker 1: love Song, I believe was like a top five hit
Speaker 1: just for them, And of course that song has been
Speaker 1: covered by so many artists since then. I mean, it
Speaker 1: was on one of the Adele Records, which I'm sure
Speaker 1: bought Robert Smith, like ten houses, you know, just a
Speaker 1: ton of money, I'm sure from that cover. But again,
Speaker 1: I feel like for a long time people just took
Speaker 1: the Smiths more seriously while also dinging The Cure for
Speaker 1: being again this kind of like adolescent angsty naval gayzey band.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's an interview that Robert Smith gave
Speaker 1: I think it pretty much at the height of The
Speaker 1: Cure's popularity, where he took a shot at Morrissey and
Speaker 1: he says he's a precious, miserable bastard. He's all the
Speaker 1: things people think I am. And I think that's a
Speaker 1: very telling quote because I'm sure Robert Smith felt like, oh,
Speaker 1: people are you know, they have this caricature of me
Speaker 1: that I'm just like this sad, bastard guy, and that's
Speaker 1: preventing some people from you know, giving me my due
Speaker 1: as like a great songwriter. Like people talk about Morrisey
Speaker 1: being a great songwriter, but like I like, I'm a
Speaker 1: great songwriter too, and I asked to write my own
Speaker 1: music too. But I don't get that kind of love
Speaker 1: from critics. They don't look at me as a tomb Smith.
Speaker 1: They look at me as just like this miserable guy,
Speaker 1: But it's like, what about this other guy, Like he's
Speaker 1: just as miserable as me, if not more so, right,
Speaker 1: I mean Robert Smith incredible guitarist, producer and wrote all
Speaker 1: the Cures music, And I agree with that. And also
Speaker 1: I think there's a case of maybe like you just
Speaker 1: like someone because you see elements of yourself and them
Speaker 1: that that you don't like about yourself. So maybe there
Speaker 1: was some of that too. It's like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not that bad, it said him. Look at him,
Speaker 1: He's even worse than me. So yeah, I could see
Speaker 1: it being your way as well, being like no, come on,
Speaker 1: like this is Morrissey actually is a miserable bastard and
Speaker 1: I do so much more. But also maybe there's some
Speaker 1: of it just was he worried it did hit too
Speaker 1: close to home. He did see elements of himself that
Speaker 1: he didn't like. So these two ended up continuing to
Speaker 1: snap at each other even after the Smith's broke up.
Speaker 1: And you know I alluded to this earlier. I mean
Speaker 1: the Smith's window of time, Like really, isn't that big?
Speaker 1: I mean they were basically a force in British music
Speaker 1: for about five years in the mid nineteen eighties. By
Speaker 1: the end of the eighties, they're finished Johnny Marr, who
Speaker 1: is a genius guitar player, and I feel like he
Speaker 1: doesn't get as much credit as he deserves. And that
Speaker 1: Morrissey mar songwriting partnership, just like the wonderful music that
Speaker 1: he wrote for those songs. By the way, we have
Speaker 1: to do a Morrissey versus mar episode at some point
Speaker 1: that will be amazing. But anyway, like even after the
Speaker 1: Smith's broke up, Morrissey and Robert Smith continue to take
Speaker 1: shots at each other. There's this great interview. I feel
Speaker 1: like it's like a pretty famous quote where Robert Smith
Speaker 1: was talking about how, you know, Morrissey is this animal
Speaker 1: rights activist and how that runs counter to just how
Speaker 1: awful he is to human beings, you know, like he
Speaker 1: cares more about animals than he does about human beings.
Speaker 1: And Robert Smith says, this is a great quote. He says,
Speaker 1: if Morrisey says not to eat meat, then I'm going
Speaker 1: to eat meat. That's how much I hate Morrison, which
Speaker 1: possibly my favorite quote of this whole thing. That's great.
Speaker 1: And then Morrissey of course shoots back. He said, Robert
Speaker 1: Smith is a fat clown with makeup, weeping over a guitar. Uh.
Speaker 1: Just like I feel like the Robert Smith quote is
Speaker 1: like a little more self aware. You know, he's almost
Speaker 1: like making fun of himself a little bit for how
Speaker 1: much It's like, I'm just reacting against anything that he
Speaker 1: does just because this guy annoys me, whereas Morrissey is
Speaker 1: just like being directly insulting of like, you know, he's
Speaker 1: calling him fat, you know, he's saying he's weeping over
Speaker 1: a guitar. And Robert Smith, of course he has a
Speaker 1: shoot back, you know. He there was an interview that
Speaker 1: he did around this time with the magazine Zone zero
Speaker 1: nine where he was talking about his status as a
Speaker 1: godfather of goth and he doesn't really like that distinction,
Speaker 1: and he says, I'm tired of being known as a
Speaker 1: doomy goth casualty. The press tries to portray me as
Speaker 1: a gloom and doom singer. But take a look at Morrissey.
Speaker 1: Batman is a professional complainer. Um. So, you know, just
Speaker 1: going back to what I was saying before, I think
Speaker 1: this idea, I think that annoyed him, that he was
Speaker 1: caricatured in this way that I don't think Morrissey was
Speaker 1: to the same degree at that time. I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, Morrissey definitely was known as this moby artist.
Speaker 1: But I feel like his songwriting partnership with Johnny Marr,
Speaker 1: I think people are certainly critics they treated that with
Speaker 1: a degree of seriousness, almost like likening them to like
Speaker 1: Lennon McCartney, you know, like the Lennon McCartney of their era.
Speaker 1: That I don't think they did that with Robert Smith.
Speaker 1: I don't feel like he got the credit that he
Speaker 1: deserved as a songwriter at that time, because yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: the Cure had a very distinct image. But you know,
Speaker 1: if you look at their albums, I mean he's writing
Speaker 1: all these great songs, and you know, as great as
Speaker 1: the Smith's are as a singles act, I should mention.
Speaker 1: I mean Standing on a Beach their compilation of their
Speaker 1: eighties singles, that's like a defining document of like early
Speaker 1: alternative rock. I mean, he wrote a lot of great
Speaker 1: singles too. I think he just felt like, hey, recognize
Speaker 1: my talent, don't just look at the makeup in like
Speaker 1: the crazy hair, Like I am producing great material at
Speaker 1: this time my favorite Robert Smith story from this period,
Speaker 1: and it might not be true, but I choose to
Speaker 1: believe it. Have been having trouble source in the quotes
Speaker 1: for this, but Robert Smith said, I remember running into
Speaker 1: Morrissey at a Halloween party or something. I went to
Speaker 1: punch him on the arm, and he just closed his
Speaker 1: eyes and started crying seeing that. I mean, I'm just
Speaker 1: imagining a scenario where like Morrissey would go to anyone's
Speaker 1: Halloween part, right, yeah, And would you do something or
Speaker 1: would he just be Robert Smith? Of course not, I
Speaker 1: could see Robert Smith going into a Halloween party. I mean,
Speaker 1: like Morrissey. Morrissey would never go to a Halloween party.
Speaker 1: That's the only reason I doubt this story, because I'm
Speaker 1: just I'm just trying to imagine a scenario like who's
Speaker 1: holding the Halloween party? Who would be friends with both
Speaker 1: of these guys and get them both to show up
Speaker 1: right and make the mistake of inviting them both? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean is that like, uh, you know, I'm just
Speaker 1: trying to think of like prominent eighties stars, is like
Speaker 1: Sting having this party is like Bono or like George Michael,
Speaker 1: you know, like who would be having that party said.
Speaker 1: That's the only reason I doubt that story. Otherwise, I'm
Speaker 1: like you, I would rather believe it than disbelieve it.
Speaker 1: So this all brings us to the Smiths at this
Speaker 1: point are done, passed on into legend, and Morrissey has
Speaker 1: a hit number one on the British charts with his
Speaker 1: debut album Viva Hate, which has incredible songs every Day
Speaker 1: is like Sunday and swede Head. He's gearing up to
Speaker 1: pro and his second solo disc, Kill Uncle with an
Speaker 1: Interview with the Enemy, which is actually another thing he hates.
Speaker 1: Forgot to mention that earlier, and he takes a stab
Speaker 1: at the Cures Disintegration their masterpiece. I I it's one
Speaker 1: of my favorite albums of all time. I think it's
Speaker 1: their definitive album, one of the best albums of the eighties.
Speaker 1: I think it's better than any single Smith's record. I
Speaker 1: mean love songs. You mentioned Pictures of You Homesick, which
Speaker 1: I think might be my favorite Cure song ever, Lullaby,
Speaker 1: Fascination Street, brilliant album. Morrissey, as one might expect, doesn't
Speaker 1: feel this way. He describes the Cures Seminal record as
Speaker 1: absolutely vial and adds the cure a new dimension to
Speaker 1: the word crap, which is a great quote. Yeah that's
Speaker 1: the poll quote. It's very insulting. But I like Robert
Speaker 1: Smith's response because I actually think his response is funnier
Speaker 1: than even that great quote, because you know, he was
Speaker 1: told about Morrisey's opinion of Disintegration, and Robert Smith says,
Speaker 1: at least we've added a new dimension in crap, not
Speaker 1: built a career on it. He's definitely much more self
Speaker 1: aware in his in his insults back. That's totally right, exactly,
Speaker 1: just you know, he's kind of being self deprecating, but yeah,
Speaker 1: he's just able to twist it and get it back
Speaker 1: on Morrissey. And it's like, Morrisey, give me a break.
Speaker 1: Disintegration brilliant record and a very influential record too. I
Speaker 1: mean there's so many types of music, whether it's dream pop,
Speaker 1: even like like SoundCloud rappers have like sampled cure songs.
Speaker 1: I mean, like Corn has covered Cure songs. I mean,
Speaker 1: their influence really extends beyond just this alt rock lane.
Speaker 1: And the same is true also of Morrissey. He's also
Speaker 1: had a very wide influence. But Disintegration a masterful record.
Speaker 1: All right hand, We'll be right back with more rivals.
Speaker 1: It's always interesting me that Robert Smith loggs way more
Speaker 1: insults than Morrissey and all of this back and forth,
Speaker 1: and maybe because he's been asked a battle a lot
Speaker 1: more and he's should have been, you know, on the
Speaker 1: defensive in this whole beef. Morrissey's verbal assaults I think
Speaker 1: are a lot more potent, but Smith definitely has the frequency. Uh.
Speaker 1: In November, he's interviewed by Spin magazine and the Robert
Speaker 1: Smith interview title is called Happily ever After, which still
Speaker 1: makes me laugh, and he goes after Morrissey again, saying
Speaker 1: I have never liked Morrissey and I still don't. I
Speaker 1: think it's hilarious actually what things I've heard about him
Speaker 1: and what he's really like, and his public persona is
Speaker 1: so different. He's such an actor, calling him a poser
Speaker 1: and rolling Stone. Not too long after, he says, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd rather have our fans than his. Our cure fans
Speaker 1: are generally quiet, well spoken, and friendly and not pretentious
Speaker 1: in the slightest. Hopefully that reflects on the nature of
Speaker 1: the cure. And he's kind of right, I mean, especially
Speaker 1: when you watch interviews with Morrissey, even like pre all
Speaker 1: the right wing stuff, like in the early in the
Speaker 1: early eighties, he's kind of frightening. You feel like he
Speaker 1: could turn on you. There's something that very I don't know.
Speaker 1: I always get kind of freaked out watching his old interviews.
Speaker 1: Whereas Robert Smith, there's like a gentleness there that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, you want to give a hug or something too,
Speaker 1: And I feel like that extends to that case. It's
Speaker 1: not obviously I'm more of a Cure guy than a
Speaker 1: Smith's guy. I feel like that extends to their fans too.
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's something about something more sensitive maybe
Speaker 1: about cheer fans. I don't know. Well, you know, again,
Speaker 1: I feel like there is quite a bit of overlap
Speaker 1: in the fan bases here. And I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: if you like the Cure, is a very high likelihood
Speaker 1: that you like the Smiths, And if you like the Smiths,
Speaker 1: I think there's a likelihood that you like the Cure.
Speaker 1: The difference is that I just think that there's more
Speaker 1: Cure fans period, because the Cure, again, like we're talking
Speaker 1: about just like America by itself, I think they were
Speaker 1: much bigger in America because like by the end of
Speaker 1: the eighties, like I said before, they were having like
Speaker 1: genuine pop hits, not just like alternative rock hits, but
Speaker 1: like they were played on top forty radio. And you know,
Speaker 1: it makes sense that Adele ended up covering a Cure
Speaker 1: song because the Cure really were like a pop band
Speaker 1: in a way that I don't think the Smiths were.
Speaker 1: I think they were more so in England than in here,
Speaker 1: but here they were always more of a cult band,
Speaker 1: and the Cure isn't often described as like a populist band,
Speaker 1: but I think in this dynamic anyway, they are the
Speaker 1: more populist group. They are the band that you just
Speaker 1: had a wider repeal. And as we were saying earlier,
Speaker 1: I think in a way, you know, because of the
Speaker 1: indie politics at the time, that made the Cure less
Speaker 1: cool than the Smiths. You know, the Smith's always had
Speaker 1: that hip outsider status that the Cure was never going
Speaker 1: to have. Of course, as those indie polics matter less
Speaker 1: and less as we get farther and farther away from
Speaker 1: like the eighties and nineties, I think that coincides with
Speaker 1: the Cure's reputation getting better, and maybe the Smith's diminishing
Speaker 1: a little bit. But of course that's also due to
Speaker 1: the fact that Morrissey, starting in the early nineties, takes
Speaker 1: a very bizarre left turn toward being basically a right
Speaker 1: wing lunatic. And that evolution begins, I guess, like in
Speaker 1: En two, like he was performing at this music festival
Speaker 1: in England and he put a union jack around himself,
Speaker 1: and of course, you know, we think about the who
Speaker 1: flying a union jack in the nineteen sixties, and I
Speaker 1: think back then it was this idea of just being
Speaker 1: proud to be from England, you know, and which is
Speaker 1: something that we also see in The Kinks at that time,
Speaker 1: writing specifically about England in the face of like America
Speaker 1: just being such a big cultural force in the world.
Speaker 1: But by the early nineties, like the symbolism of like
Speaker 1: a union jacket had changed quite a bit and really
Speaker 1: kind of turned into this like symbol of nationalism in England.
Speaker 1: And I just wonder, like to what degree, you know,
Speaker 1: Morrissey did a great job of this earlier in the episode,
Speaker 1: talking about all the things that he hates. The man
Speaker 1: is an elitist, and it seems like his elitism is
Speaker 1: really starting to take an ugly turn at this time
Speaker 1: where it's not just like a funny like you know, misanthropic,
Speaker 1: like I'm giving fun quotes in an interview, it's like
Speaker 1: actually sort of leaking into his worldview, like where he
Speaker 1: actually does think he's better than other people. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean this was like pre britpop and in that era,
Speaker 1: as you said, it would definitely have more right wing connotations.
Speaker 1: And at this festival he is performing at, there was
Speaker 1: apparently a large Skinhead contingent there and it was felt
Speaker 1: that it was sort of signaling to these nationalists extremist groups.
Speaker 1: And at the time, the Enemy had a headline with
Speaker 1: a picture of Morrissey on stage at that festival flying
Speaker 1: the flag or flirting with disaster. So it definitely it
Speaker 1: got noticed at that time, and in fact, Morrissey was
Speaker 1: so piste off by that headline that he refused to
Speaker 1: talk to the Enemy for like a decade or something.
Speaker 1: So um So, yeah, this was something that started early
Speaker 1: on in the nineties, and it's interesting to me that,
Speaker 1: for all their differences, Robert Smith never went in on
Speaker 1: Morrissey for his controversial statements or any of his sort
Speaker 1: of out there political views. Which became much much, much
Speaker 1: more pronounced as the decade went on at but was
Speaker 1: interesting given their feud that he never went there. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think Robert Smith was smart enough to know that,
Speaker 1: like Morrissey is owning herself with this stuff. It's like,
Speaker 1: what do I need to say? He's making a fool
Speaker 1: of himself, so you know, just let him continue to
Speaker 1: make a fool of himself. At this point, we're used
Speaker 1: to Morrissey, you know, all the terrible quotes that he's
Speaker 1: had over the years, and we're going to get into
Speaker 1: some of those later in this episode. I think people
Speaker 1: are used to it by now, but I really feel
Speaker 1: like there's maybe a sense of portrayal started to come
Speaker 1: in to play with fans in the nineties that you know,
Speaker 1: Morrissey was at his best associated with the underdog. You know,
Speaker 1: he was the music of like alienated people, people on
Speaker 1: the outside, and to embrace this sort of ideology it's
Speaker 1: so strange. But at the same time, if you think
Speaker 1: of him ultimately as an elitist, it does have a weird,
Speaker 1: kind of twisted sense of logic to it. Yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: get more than this later too, but especially but we're
Speaker 1: betrayal I think is definitely the perfect one. It's been
Speaker 1: hard for a lot of fans who looked to him
Speaker 1: as somebody for soulace when they felt alone and isolated
Speaker 1: and sort of outpressed in the eighties. I think it's
Speaker 1: been really hard to rationalize the music that came from
Speaker 1: that person to the public statements that he says. Now.
Speaker 1: Back in two thousand four, The Cure and Morrissey faced
Speaker 1: off in the charts again. They both had back to
Speaker 1: back releases of Morrissey's You Are the Cory Uh in May,
Speaker 1: and The Cure had a self titled album the following month.
Speaker 1: And um, I guess it's probably fair to say at
Speaker 1: this point both of their relevance had really faded significantly
Speaker 1: and they kind of began the slide into more of
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna call him nostalgia acts, but they definitely
Speaker 1: didn't have the same critical and cultural potency that they
Speaker 1: once did. But Robert Smith was being interviewed for his
Speaker 1: new album, and he still took the opportunity to slag
Speaker 1: off Morrissey just for old time Sick. In an interview
Speaker 1: with Entertainment Weekly, he said Morrissey was constantly saying horrible
Speaker 1: things about the cure. In the end, I kind of
Speaker 1: snapped and started retaliating, and it turned into some kind
Speaker 1: of petty feud. I've never liked anything he's done musically,
Speaker 1: but I don't have any kind of strong feelings of
Speaker 1: animosity towards him as a person because I've never met him.
Speaker 1: Maybe that halloween aories think so his music sucks, but
Speaker 1: he might not be a jerk. I can't say for sure,
Speaker 1: but you know, I've never met him and I probably
Speaker 1: never will because I actually do hate his guts. There
Speaker 1: was I guess, an official like piece of chord between
Speaker 1: these guys that began. In twenty nineteen, Morsey gave an
Speaker 1: interview where he was sounding off on a wide range
Speaker 1: of issues, including his very problematic I guess political points
Speaker 1: of view, but he also ended up talking about Robert Smith,
Speaker 1: and Morsey was like, actually, I think weirdly conciliatory in
Speaker 1: this context. He said, I said some terrible things about
Speaker 1: him thirty five years ago, but I didn't mean them.
Speaker 1: I was just being very grange Hill, which I guess
Speaker 1: is a British like teen soap opera. It's great when
Speaker 1: you can blame everything on Turette's syndrome. So is that
Speaker 1: is that an apology? Yeah? Yeah, I mean the word
Speaker 1: regret is in there, I suppose, yeah, But the Turette's
Speaker 1: thing at the end is definitely I count that legally
Speaker 1: as an apology. I don't know about Sincere. I just
Speaker 1: feel like an apology means except getting responsibility for what
Speaker 1: you've done, and I feel like he did not accept
Speaker 1: responsibility at the end. But we're talking about Morrissey here,
Speaker 1: so this is as close as as we're going to
Speaker 1: get to an apology. And of course Robert Smith has
Speaker 1: to respond, and he gave an interview to the Enemy
Speaker 1: where he says it was slightly odd as I haven't
Speaker 1: really had it at the forefront of my consciousness over
Speaker 1: the last twenty or thirty years. I don't know even
Speaker 1: at the time, I never quite understood what the problem was.
Speaker 1: It's far from important right now. Which I love that
Speaker 1: response because it's very like Walter sob Check and the
Speaker 1: big Lebowski is saying, which, by the way, Robert Smith,
Speaker 1: who look, we both love, he's being like pretty disingenuous
Speaker 1: here because he's basically saying, like, I haven't even thought
Speaker 1: about this in thirty years. Meanwhile, we've just listed several
Speaker 1: quotes of him slagging off Morrissey that we're well within that,
Speaker 1: you know, twenty or thirty year window. So I mean, look,
Speaker 1: maybe he only thought about it when journalists asked him
Speaker 1: about it, but he's certainly never backed away from taking
Speaker 1: a shot at Morrissey when he had the opportunity. But again,
Speaker 1: you know, it's clear that, like when you get beyond
Speaker 1: the insults that Robert Smith, it seems like he was
Speaker 1: genuinely hurt. Going back to that four interview where Morrisey
Speaker 1: said that he would shoot him and Marky Smith. It
Speaker 1: was this interview that he did with The Guardian where
Speaker 1: he says, I felt it was unfair that he would
Speaker 1: shoot me. If you asked him again, he might choose
Speaker 1: to shoot himself rather than me or whoever else it was.
Speaker 1: So he still cares, It still cares that. It's like,
Speaker 1: I don't care, I haven't thought about in thirty years.
Speaker 1: But I also remember this interview where he said that
Speaker 1: he would shoot me, you know, So again, be a
Speaker 1: little disingenuous there, but I appreciate the calmer than you are,
Speaker 1: you know defense there. I think that's always a good thing.
Speaker 1: Like we're like, well, but you you're acting like you care.
Speaker 1: I've never even cared at all, Like, so I'm clearly
Speaker 1: the winner here. This all begs the question did Marky
Speaker 1: Smith ever respond any of this? Well, I mean, Marky
Speaker 1: Smith is an even bigger mr probe than Morrissey, So
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure that he would like get a
Speaker 1: like a machine gun and like mow them down if
Speaker 1: you ask Marky Smith. So maybe Robert Smith is being
Speaker 1: a little more generous at this stage, because we've said
Speaker 1: Morrissey is becoming something of a pariah due to his
Speaker 1: string of really increasingly controversial quotes about race and immigration
Speaker 1: and the meat too movement. UH. In the last fifteen years,
Speaker 1: Morrissey's transformed into basically a one man assault on political correctness.
Speaker 1: And again it's interesting that Robert smithther came to him
Speaker 1: for that. But again, like you said, it was just
Speaker 1: such an easy target. And for a while I was
Speaker 1: tempting to try to write off everything morris He said
Speaker 1: as really being like intentionally provocative just for attention, But
Speaker 1: as time went on, it really got harder and harder
Speaker 1: to ignore, Like is he being deliberately provocative? Is he
Speaker 1: being like a pro wrestler villain or is it a
Speaker 1: case of big mouth strikes again? You know, I mean,
Speaker 1: his his uh misanthropic tendencies curdled into these really reprehensible beliefs.
Speaker 1: And we won't go too deep into this because that's
Speaker 1: the whole other episode of you know, Morrissey versus everyone
Speaker 1: who isn't Morrissey, but it's worth noting because I think
Speaker 1: it really impacted the Smith's reputation in a way that's
Speaker 1: relevant to the Smith's versus cure argument. And you know,
Speaker 1: in the early days, Morrissey was this paragon of left
Speaker 1: wing ideology. He was anti Thatcher with Margaret on the guillotine,
Speaker 1: he was anti monarchy with Queen is Dead, and uncompromising
Speaker 1: attitude towards animal rights. Meet his murder, he was really
Speaker 1: explicit and his hatred of blue blooded establishment and control
Speaker 1: of songs like the Headmaster ritual. Uh when has how
Speaker 1: we feel if somebody murdered Margaret Thatcher in the eighties,
Speaker 1: he replied, obviously I'd marry that person. So you know,
Speaker 1: he's definitely as left wing as you can come in
Speaker 1: this era. And those songs are all about the downtrodden,
Speaker 1: lonely outsiders, you know, Mexico, And that's an extra from
Speaker 1: the you were the Choreyott takes takes on white privilege.
Speaker 1: It seems if you're rich and you're white, you'll be
Speaker 1: all right. I just don't see why this should be.
Speaker 1: So it's crazy when you contrast like those early songs
Speaker 1: with like that two thousand seven interview that he did
Speaker 1: with the Enemy, where I feel like that was like
Speaker 1: him really going off the deep end. Oh yes, that
Speaker 1: was when I think he ended up suing them for
Speaker 1: that too. It's just it's really confusing for like this
Speaker 1: first generation Irish Catholic immigrants speaking out so strongly against
Speaker 1: what he saw is really lax immigration policies in the UK.
Speaker 1: He says, although I don't have anything against people from
Speaker 1: other countries, the higher the influx into England, the more
Speaker 1: the British identity disappears. You walk through Knightsbridge and have
Speaker 1: a neighborhood in London on any Bland day of the week,
Speaker 1: you won't hear an English accent. England is a memory.
Speaker 1: Now the gates are flooded and anybody can have access
Speaker 1: to England and join in. And he ended up taking
Speaker 1: the enemy to court for libel, saying that the quotes
Speaker 1: were taken out of context, and he got an apology
Speaker 1: from the magazine. But then a couple of years later,
Speaker 1: in twos ten, he does an interview with The Guardian
Speaker 1: Weekend magazine and he referred to Chinese people as quote
Speaker 1: a subspecies. And this is in response to their treatment
Speaker 1: of animals. Horrendous. Absolutely, yeah, I mean, and and it
Speaker 1: keeps going. I mean. He said awful things about London's mayor,
Speaker 1: Sadik Khan, saying that he talk properly at some quotes,
Speaker 1: and he he reportedly responded to the terrorist attack in
Speaker 1: his hometown of Manchester in seventeen by criticizing immigration, despite
Speaker 1: the fact that the perpetrator wasn't an immigrant, so it
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with that at all. He reportedly
Speaker 1: said that Berlin had become quote the rape capital of
Speaker 1: the world due to its open borders. Really bad, and
Speaker 1: whenever people would ask him he's a racist, he's quoted
Speaker 1: as saying variations on the word racist is meaningless. Now
Speaker 1: everyone ultimately prefers their own race. Does this make everyone racist? Uh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. Once you say everyone ultimately prefers their own race,
Speaker 1: like you're pretty much like like way on the slippery slope.
Speaker 1: It just gets worse after that. You know, he's been
Speaker 1: a Brexit supporter, you know, he's been a vocal critic
Speaker 1: of me too, And I just feel like all this stuff,
Speaker 1: as you were saying earlier, it's just like hurt the
Speaker 1: reputation of the Smiths, because if you love the Smiths,
Speaker 1: not only because they had great music, but because you
Speaker 1: thought they signified something about being an alienated outsider, that
Speaker 1: this was going to be music that like spoke for you,
Speaker 1: you know, as someone who doesn't feel comfortable in the
Speaker 1: mainstream of society. You know, you looked at Morrissey as
Speaker 1: a hero, you looked at someone You looked at him
Speaker 1: as someone who's gonna like stand up for you and
Speaker 1: and and people like you. So to see him do
Speaker 1: this hell turn that he's done in the last fifteen
Speaker 1: years or twenty years or so, you know, even if
Speaker 1: in his mind he feels like, well, I'm just reacting
Speaker 1: to what I feel is like sort of stifling political
Speaker 1: correctness and I'm being provocative, I'm being interesting. Even if
Speaker 1: that is what is at play here, it just takes
Speaker 1: away what he wants signified to people, and it just
Speaker 1: makes his songs seem phony. And I think with an
Speaker 1: artist like Morrissey, authenticity is so important, you know. But
Speaker 1: it's like, you can't listen to those records now without
Speaker 1: hearing these quotes in your head, and it just plays
Speaker 1: against I think what those records originally meant to people. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, Morrissey very famously has a
Speaker 1: huge following in the Latin American community because his songs
Speaker 1: speak to that sense of otherness as they, you know,
Speaker 1: try to they leave their home behind and try to
Speaker 1: assimilate New American culture. So I'm sure that the abrupt
Speaker 1: face specifically on the issue of immigration was really hurtful
Speaker 1: to a lot of them. There was some really interesting
Speaker 1: interviews out there with Latin American Morrissey fans speaking about
Speaker 1: how how they're coming to two terms with with these
Speaker 1: things that he says, and it is very hurtful. And
Speaker 1: you know, in in England there have been some stores
Speaker 1: that won't suck his records anymore, and subway posters in
Speaker 1: uh I think in the UK were taken down for
Speaker 1: some of his new albums too, So there's been increasing
Speaker 1: blowback as his statements have gotten more and more extreme.
Speaker 1: Concurrent with this was the Cure's reputation receiving kind of
Speaker 1: a shot in the arm and the two thousand tens
Speaker 1: and for years, as we said earlier, the Cure we're
Speaker 1: sort of scene as this doomy, self serious, melo dramatic
Speaker 1: teenage band, and the fact that they were a commercial success,
Speaker 1: much bigger than the Smiths in the US was sort
Speaker 1: of a liability because, like as we said, made them
Speaker 1: this cheap, populous act in the eyes of many taste makers,
Speaker 1: especially when compared with the Smiths of like cool Wit,
Speaker 1: it's really incredible. And the Enemy in December of two
Speaker 1: thousand named the most influential artist of all time. The
Speaker 1: Smiths flogged in at number ten. The Cure didn't place
Speaker 1: at all. When Enemy ranked the fifty greatest artists of
Speaker 1: all time in two thousand two, the Smith's edged out
Speaker 1: the Beatles for the number one spot and the Cure
Speaker 1: didn't appear at all. That's just crazy to me. I
Speaker 1: think it makes more sense for British Music magazine to
Speaker 1: do that, because the Smith's clearly just meant more in
Speaker 1: England than they met in the United States. But to
Speaker 1: not even put the Cure on the list at all
Speaker 1: is like so crazy to me when again, you look
Speaker 1: at the length of their career, which really goes from
Speaker 1: the late seventies until like the mid nineties. As far
Speaker 1: as them being like a really relevant hit making band,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's like a twenty year run, which is
Speaker 1: impressive for any band. But if you look at again,
Speaker 1: like the quality of their catalog again, having multiple albums
Speaker 1: that I think are really excellent, it just shows like
Speaker 1: how much they were underappreciated. I have to think too that,
Speaker 1: you know, the disposition of Robert's Smith versus Morrissey. I
Speaker 1: just feel like that's become so much clearer now in
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. And you know, we were talking
Speaker 1: about this earlier about how if you want a caricature
Speaker 1: Robert Smith as just like this miserable, sad bastard type
Speaker 1: that really falls apart when you see interviews with him
Speaker 1: or you read interviews where I just generally find him
Speaker 1: to be a very self aware, funny, smart guy. And
Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking about that moment when the
Speaker 1: Cure were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of
Speaker 1: Fame in twenty nineteen, there was that viral video of
Speaker 1: Robert Smith being interviewed on the red carpet before going
Speaker 1: into the theater. Did you see that video? It's hilarious, Like,
Speaker 1: this is very excited woman interviewing Robert Smith and and
Speaker 1: she asks like, are you as excited as I am
Speaker 1: to be here tonight? And Robert Smith just kind of
Speaker 1: looks at her and says, well, it doesn't look like it,
Speaker 1: you know. And it is very low key, like almost
Speaker 1: like a Larry David type desposition, And it's hilarious. And
Speaker 1: it just shows like again like he seems like a
Speaker 1: guy who knows who he is. He's comfortable with this
Speaker 1: place in like music history and music culture. And you know,
Speaker 1: you mentioned self serious as being a tag that was
Speaker 1: put on the Cure. He actually doesn't seem to take
Speaker 1: himself that seriously. No, not. I don't even get you know,
Speaker 1: missing throat vibes from him necessarily. I get somebody who
Speaker 1: just doesn't want to deal with all the sort of
Speaker 1: bullshit that goes along with having to be like, you know,
Speaker 1: playing arenas like the Cure did and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: The older he gets, the more I just see, you said,
Speaker 1: a low key guy. So before we go to the
Speaker 1: pro case for each side. We have to answer the
Speaker 1: looming question that's been in the air since the start
Speaker 1: of this episode, which is who would win in an
Speaker 1: actual fight between them? You got Morrissey Pope or Rock
Speaker 1: sad Clown? What do you think? You know? Neither one
Speaker 1: of them seem like they're in great shape. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess Morrissey is probably like a bit better shape
Speaker 1: than Robert Smith. You know. I just see them circling
Speaker 1: each other and saying mean things to each other without
Speaker 1: actually throwing a punch, and then at some point just
Speaker 1: getting bored and wandering off. It's really hard for me
Speaker 1: to imagine them actually coming to physical blows, Like what
Speaker 1: do you think? Do you think they could actually land
Speaker 1: a punch on each other? I could see maybe one
Speaker 1: coming from Robert Smith. I could see him having a
Speaker 1: sadistic streak. But I could see, you know, Morrissey just
Speaker 1: laying down to welcome the sweet relief of death. That's
Speaker 1: where I'm at. We're gonna take a quick break and
Speaker 1: get a word from our sponsor before we get to
Speaker 1: more rivals. Okay, we've reached the part of our episode
Speaker 1: where we give the pro side of each part of
Speaker 1: the rivalry. Let's talk about The Smith's first. One of
Speaker 1: the greatest singles bands of all time as far as
Speaker 1: I'm concerned. I mean, a few bands have as many
Speaker 1: just like perfect pop songs as the Smith's, do you know?
Speaker 1: And I a literated to this earlier. We haven't really
Speaker 1: talked about Johnny Marr in this episode. I think that
Speaker 1: he is a really crucial part of what makes The
Speaker 1: Smith's magical. And I'll say that, like, if you don't
Speaker 1: want to listen to the Smiths because you find Morrissey
Speaker 1: is so annoying, don't forget that Johnny Marr is a
Speaker 1: big part of that band and they're still worth listening
Speaker 1: to even if you find the lead singer irritating, just
Speaker 1: because of his wonderful guitar playing. And it must be
Speaker 1: said about Morrissey, you know, as obnoxious as he can be,
Speaker 1: he really is like a pretty brilliant lyricist, and I
Speaker 1: think in his prime he is like one of the
Speaker 1: great British pop rock lyricists of all time. Uh, And
Speaker 1: it's a shame that that talent gets overshadowed by some
Speaker 1: of this other stuff. But yeah, I mean wonderful song
Speaker 1: titles too. I mean, he could title a song as
Speaker 1: well as anybody. Oh yeah, I think he's one of
Speaker 1: the few musicians whose lyrics worked on that you get
Speaker 1: almost as much out of him on the page, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean their poetry, they're so witty and insightful. He
Speaker 1: took the ordinary and dramatized it in such a way
Speaker 1: that was just so relatable. These characters that are just
Speaker 1: steeped in insecurity and shame, and no one expresses loneliness
Speaker 1: and angst like Morrissey. I mean, it was funny, it
Speaker 1: was sad, it was angry, it was defeated, it was defiant.
Speaker 1: I mean often all in the same song. Unparalleled lyricist.
Speaker 1: And you know, we've said all through the episode it's
Speaker 1: pretty much accepted that the Smiths with the most you know,
Speaker 1: in quotes important band. But it's insane how prolific they
Speaker 1: were just for their five years streak. And I think
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways it's the Hendrix effect. They
Speaker 1: never got to be middle age and make their bad
Speaker 1: Clapton albums. You know, the Smith's never made old sock.
Speaker 1: You know, as much as I prefer the Cure for
Speaker 1: the song by song comparison of their peak eras the
Speaker 1: Smiths might have an edge. I think the Smith's peaks
Speaker 1: were maybe higher. What do you think that's I although
Speaker 1: I do prefer I think that the Cures catalog overall
Speaker 1: more so. Yeah, I mean, I think the Hendrix comparison
Speaker 1: is after like the Velvet Underground or Big Star, any
Speaker 1: of these bands that have a short life, but everything
Speaker 1: they put out was more or less essential. And that
Speaker 1: seems to be true of the Smiths, even though I
Speaker 1: don't think that their albums from that period are as
Speaker 1: good as the Cure albums with maybe with the exception
Speaker 1: of The Queen is Dead. But to me again as
Speaker 1: a singles band, they're really great and uh definitely one
Speaker 1: of the best singles bands of their era, and really
Speaker 1: I think of all time, like they're in that kind
Speaker 1: versation if you go over to the Cure side again,
Speaker 1: a longer career, a deeper catalog, and I think they
Speaker 1: have like a wider range of influence. I mean, going
Speaker 1: back to that list that you were talking about earlier
Speaker 1: on how the Smiths were ranked higher than the Cure,
Speaker 1: I guess the Cure wasn't even on that list of
Speaker 1: like most influential British fans but if you look at
Speaker 1: the people that have covered Cure songs, it's like everyone
Speaker 1: from Adele to Corn to Little Peep. You know, they've
Speaker 1: either covered Cure songs or they they've sampled them. I
Speaker 1: think that speaks to the Cures again, more populist appeal. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, they were a band that sold more records
Speaker 1: in the Smiths. They had like bigger hits at least,
Speaker 1: you know, certainly here in America. And I think they
Speaker 1: continue to speak to outsiders, maybe even more than the
Speaker 1: Smiths do. Also, you know, as we've reiterated time and
Speaker 1: again in this episode, Robert Smith is just a more
Speaker 1: likable person than Morrissey, you know, like I cheer for
Speaker 1: him in a way that I don't for Morrissey. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, so much of what the Smith
Speaker 1: seems so attached to their place and time, and maybe
Speaker 1: some of that is because they're sort of directly tackling
Speaker 1: social issues. If Morrissey's lears talked to being an awkward, angsty,
Speaker 1: boring kid of a certain era and culture, I think
Speaker 1: the Cure songs are what being an angsty team felt like,
Speaker 1: you know, what those epic mood pieces like homesick, like
Speaker 1: just the songs are just ecstatic highs, like just like Heaven,
Speaker 1: and then these deep dark loads like that that three
Speaker 1: minute opening part to Homesick with that like mournful piano part.
Speaker 1: I mean the Cure masters of like the three minute
Speaker 1: instrumental intro. I just want to say, like, oh, Disintegration
Speaker 1: has that exactly, And I think that the Cure sound
Speaker 1: is so much more unique than the Smith's. I kind
Speaker 1: of feel about the Smiths the same way that I
Speaker 1: do about Blur and sometimes even the Kinks. It's that
Speaker 1: it's not for me, you know. I can appreciate it academically,
Speaker 1: and the melodies are always gorgeous, but the lyrics again
Speaker 1: seems so tied to a specific time, place and culture,
Speaker 1: and obviously they can relate to the loneliness and alienation,
Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why Morrissey has such
Speaker 1: a strong following in the Latin American community. His words
Speaker 1: are obviously able to speak to more than just those
Speaker 1: who grew up in you know, northern England in the
Speaker 1: recession of the late seventies and the right wing Thatcher
Speaker 1: era of the eighties. But there's something about you know,
Speaker 1: Morrissey and his prime He had this chiseled, good looking face,
Speaker 1: great haircut, pompadour, and he was sort of like the
Speaker 1: idealized outsider that we all kind of wanted to be.
Speaker 1: And Robert Smith, with this sort of scraggly hair and
Speaker 1: his off putting, kind of bizarre makeup and kind of
Speaker 1: hunt shoulders, he was almost more how I think he
Speaker 1: seemed like one of us. He seemed like one of
Speaker 1: the shy, awkward kids, you know. I think of uh
Speaker 1: Chuck Closterman's famous essay about Billy Joel about how why
Speaker 1: Billy Joel could never be cool because whenever he looks
Speaker 1: at Billy Joel, he sees himself. I think that's how
Speaker 1: I think about Robert Smith. You know, when I look
Speaker 1: at him, I just relate to to him so much.
Speaker 1: I just see myself in so many ways. And maybe
Speaker 1: that's why he's my favorite of the two. So if
Speaker 1: we look at these two bands together, look I like
Speaker 1: both bands. I think most people like both bands, and
Speaker 1: I like that they hate I don't think that this
Speaker 1: rivalry actually impedes on anyone's enjoyment of the other band.
Speaker 1: It's not like Oasis versus Blur, where people felt compelled
Speaker 1: to take a side. You know, if you like one band,
Speaker 1: you probably like the other. And I think the dislike
Speaker 1: that they had actually enhances our love of the Smith's
Speaker 1: and the Cure, because there's all this great fodder. You know,
Speaker 1: they were slagging each other, and they did it in
Speaker 1: a really funny, entertaining way. Yeah. I can't think of
Speaker 1: any case where, you know, if any Smith's fans were
Speaker 1: staunch anti Cure or vice versa, I don't really, I
Speaker 1: can't really think of any examples of that really happening.
Speaker 1: Like you said, the debate was all about which one
Speaker 1: of the bands was better than the other, and Morrisey,
Speaker 1: I think it was more of an iconic cultural force.
Speaker 1: But I think the music of The Cure is going
Speaker 1: to continue to endure and probably proved to be more
Speaker 1: influential of the two bands. I'm gonna argue, but maybe
Speaker 1: I'm just buy us and just I'm a former Cure kid. Well, Steve,
Speaker 1: to die by your side as we pick apart rivalries
Speaker 1: would be the most heavenly way to die. Would you say,
Speaker 1: it's just like heaven? Yes, yes, I would. Well, now
Speaker 1: that we got to punt out of the way, I
Speaker 1: think it's time to bid everyone goodbye, so thank you
Speaker 1: for listening to this episode of Rivals. We will be
Speaker 1: back with more beefs and feuds and long simmering resentments
Speaker 1: next week. Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The
Speaker 1: supervising producers are Taylor Chicogne and Tristan McNeil. The producer
Speaker 1: is Joel hat Stat. I'm Jordan's run Talk. I'm Stephen Hyden.
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