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Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and

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Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

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Speaker 1: I'm Jordan, and today we're gonna take a look at

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Speaker 1: the feud between Morrissey of The Smith's and Robert Smith

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Speaker 1: of The Cure. The rivalry means a lot to people

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Speaker 1: because both of these bands spoke to those of us

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Speaker 1: who felt alienated and lonely in our teens, which, as

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Speaker 1: hardcore music fans is probably most of us. We bonded

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Speaker 1: with one or both of these bands in a really

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Speaker 1: special way. And well, that's true that you could easily

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Speaker 1: enjoy both. I know that everybody had their favorite. I

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Speaker 1: think this rivalry is significant because it's not just the

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Speaker 1: case of two bands who exist in the same lane

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Speaker 1: being unwillingly pitted against each other as rivals. The lead

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Speaker 1: singers of these bands actually hated each other. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I forget Oasis versus Blur, this is the original battle

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Speaker 1: of British pop rock bands warring with each other in

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Speaker 1: the press, and in spite of their reputations as like

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Speaker 1: these like moby goth rockers, these guys were actually really

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Speaker 1: funny when they were insulting each other. Oh yeah, they

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Speaker 1: were Gallagher Brothers level, I mean, and I was never

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Speaker 1: able to figure out how real it was though. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know they were competitive on some level, sort of

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Speaker 1: battling it out for a subsection of the post punk

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Speaker 1: late era new wave sound, especially with their fighting social commentary.

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Speaker 1: But I also think that Smith and especially Morrissey have

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Speaker 1: a touch of the David Crosby where they loved just

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Speaker 1: playing up their missanthropy by saying really outrageously awful things

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Speaker 1: about people in the press for for attention and headlines.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it makes me wonder if did they

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Speaker 1: even mean it. I mean, because they both admitted as much.

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Speaker 1: Morrissey once said I lie a lot. It's really useful,

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Speaker 1: and Robert Smith said I lie a lot, especially in interviews.

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Speaker 1: So in my gut, I feel like that's got to

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Speaker 1: be at play at some level in this too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's true. I'm sure there was

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Speaker 1: some exaggeration going on here, but I also feel like

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Speaker 1: there was some genuine dislike and I think it's sent

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Speaker 1: for Morrissey in the nineteen eighties being seen as this

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Speaker 1: poet and true artist and Robert Smith being depicted as

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Speaker 1: this like melodramatic, more adolescent guy. And it's been fascinating

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Speaker 1: for me to see like this shift over the past

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Speaker 1: several decades where I feel like, in many ways Robert

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Speaker 1: Smith now has the level of respect that Morrissey used

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Speaker 1: to have. Of course, let's do mostly to Morrissey's saying

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Speaker 1: many awful things and self sabotaging his reputation. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that's definitely a major factor. I don't know. To me,

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Speaker 1: talking about both these bands, it almost makes me uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: in the way because it conjures up these memories of

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Speaker 1: such a weird time in my life personally, all that

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Speaker 1: like angsty adolescent stuff. I'm sure other people fail that

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Speaker 1: way too, And I almost wonder if that sensation had

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Speaker 1: an adverse effect on the reputation of The Cure in particular,

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Speaker 1: because for a time it was a band you're almost

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Speaker 1: embarrassed to admit that he liked because it was so

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Speaker 1: linked to this painful, awkward adolescent period that we all

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Speaker 1: went through. But ultimately you said, I think that the

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Speaker 1: Cure benefited from that, and now we look back on

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Speaker 1: them fondly because the music was always there for us

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Speaker 1: during this crucial time, and the Cure of you know,

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Speaker 1: received the recognition they deserved. They were inducted in the

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Speaker 1: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in twenty nine. And

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Speaker 1: what's more, they survived to watch Morrissey to send into

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Speaker 1: a right wing parody of himself. So that's a win. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the Cure getting into the Rock and Roll

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Speaker 1: Hall of Fame, and the Smiths are not in the

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Speaker 1: rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which I think is

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Speaker 1: a major crime. They deserve to be in there. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure if you ask Morrisey about this,

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Speaker 1: he would say he doesn't care, or he would at

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Speaker 1: least claim that he doesn't care. But I like to

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Speaker 1: think that this is something that Robert Smith can lord

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Speaker 1: over him if they ever bump into each other on

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Speaker 1: like the post punk senior citizen circuit. But we're getting

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Speaker 1: ahead of ourselves. There's so much to explore here, So

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Speaker 1: without further ado, let's get into this mess. I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to begin with a very crucial fact, and

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Speaker 1: that's that Stephen Patrick Morrissey hates an awful lot of stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he hates everything, he really does. I mean I just

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Speaker 1: want to take a quick moment to demonstrate this point.

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Speaker 1: Morrissey hates meat, roller coasters, rain, cold weather, dance music.

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Speaker 1: He's called rave music a refuge for the mentally deficient

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Speaker 1: and described long long hair as an unpartable offense which

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Speaker 1: should be punishable by death. Yeah, that's rationale. He He

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Speaker 1: hates the music of Stevie Wonder, which I think might

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Speaker 1: be a first in human history. Who hates Stevie Wonder?

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Speaker 1: I gotta speculate it's maybe because Stevie Wonder's name is

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Speaker 1: Stephen and Stephen Patrick. Morrissey hates his birth name, apparently

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Speaker 1: reminds him of Steve Austin from the TV series The

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Speaker 1: six Million Dollar Man, which also hates. He doesn't like

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Speaker 1: the name Steve. I know, yeah, you got you got

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Speaker 1: some things to saying that, Steve. Yeah, it's getting personal now, Morrissey.

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Speaker 1: He hates Kate Bush, saying the nicest thing I can

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Speaker 1: say about her is that she's unbearable. That voice such trash.

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Speaker 1: He hates Bob Geldof, calling him a nauseating character. He

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Speaker 1: hates so many people that the list is too long

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Speaker 1: for me to even read over here. Quite tellingly, his

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Speaker 1: first solo LP after the Smith's disbanded was called Viva Hate,

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Speaker 1: and he's ever denied being, you know, seriously missingthropic, saying

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Speaker 1: in one early interview, I hate most people, and I

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Speaker 1: don't want to. It's an awful way to be. But

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Speaker 1: the human race gives me no comfort. Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: And to illustrate this point, when he smelled meat being

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Speaker 1: cooked when he's performing at Coachella in two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: he famously said, I can smell burning flesh. I hope

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Speaker 1: to God it's human. So this is the level of

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Speaker 1: the person we're dealing with, and he's either an Olympian

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Speaker 1: level missingthrope or a great a outrageous quote machine. His

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Speaker 1: lyrics would suggest a combination of the two. So as

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Speaker 1: far as his conflict with Robert Smith goes, it starts

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Speaker 1: really at the beginning of Morrissey's career. It's he's giving

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Speaker 1: an interview with the magazine The Face, and the reporter

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Speaker 1: asked this question, if I put you in a room

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Speaker 1: with Robert Smith, markis Smith of the Fall in a

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Speaker 1: loaded Smith and Wesson, who would bite the bullet first? Now,

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Speaker 1: before we get to Morrissey's answer here, I think it's

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Speaker 1: clear from the construction of this question that the idea

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Speaker 1: is to name a bunch of people named Smith because

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Speaker 1: Morrissey isn't a band called the Smith's. It's not really

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Speaker 1: about Robert Smith or the Cure particularly. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: not known yet really how Morrissey feels about that band.

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Speaker 1: It's really just a jokey question to ask Morrisey, where

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Speaker 1: you know, you're setting the ball on the t for

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Speaker 1: him to say something outrageous. And of course Morrissey can

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Speaker 1: never resist the bait here as he ever turned the

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Speaker 1: other cheek. Morrissey, I don't think he's ever turned down

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to slay someone off, absolutely, which makes him

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Speaker 1: a terrible person, but it makes him perfect for this show.

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Speaker 1: So I guess I have to thank Morrissey for that.

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Speaker 1: But Morrissey says, and this is maybe like like the

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Speaker 1: worst possible answer from like a humanist perspective, but like

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Speaker 1: it's a very funny answer. He says, I'd line them

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Speaker 1: up so that one bullet would penetrate them simultaneously. At

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Speaker 1: any rate, it's rather curious that he began wearing beads

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Speaker 1: at the emergence of the Smiths. This is Morrissey's saying

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Speaker 1: of Robert Smith, and he's been photographed with flowers, and

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Speaker 1: of course this is a reference to the fact that

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Speaker 1: early in his career Morrissey would come on stage holding daffodils.

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Speaker 1: So there's the implication that Robert Smith is somehow ripping

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Speaker 1: him off. And he says, I expect he's quite supportive

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Speaker 1: what we do, but I've never liked the cure, not

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Speaker 1: even the caterpillar, not even the Yeah, exactly, I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: like why he's singled out the caterpillar as like it

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Speaker 1: being amazing. That doesn't even like that song, Like I

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Speaker 1: I don't think of that as necessarily being like the

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Speaker 1: most popular cure song or the most accessible cure song,

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Speaker 1: but or the most like the Smith's cure song. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't figure that right. It's kind of weird, But

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Speaker 1: at any rate, the point is is that Morrissey would

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Speaker 1: murder Robert Smith have given the opportunity, and he thinks

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Speaker 1: that he's ripping him off. So that is what has

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Speaker 1: been established in this interview. And this quote gets back

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Speaker 1: to Robert Smith, who fired back in kind. He said,

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Speaker 1: Morrissey is so depressing if he doesn't off himself soon

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Speaker 1: I probably will. Yes, it's just beautiful Winston Churchill level

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Speaker 1: insult right there, very very good. Years later, when he's

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Speaker 1: looking back on the Morrissey feud, Robert Smith also said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would have expect it at the time,

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Speaker 1: him being a non meat eating, vegetarian, pacifist sort of guy,

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Speaker 1: to say I choose to shoot myself or I choose

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Speaker 1: to shoot no one. But he said I'd lined them

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Speaker 1: all up and shoot them all. When I was told

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Speaker 1: that at the time, I kind of took umberge. I

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Speaker 1: thought that's fucking nice. And then he drops a c

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Speaker 1: bomb because he's Robert Smith. Um, it seemed like if

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Speaker 1: he's genuinely pretty hurt by this whole exchange. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he said it was, you know, not unnecessary. I've never

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Speaker 1: said or done anything to morris See and the according

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Speaker 1: to Robert Smith, at least at that point, they've never

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Speaker 1: even been in the same room together. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tip my hand here as being more sympathetic

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Speaker 1: generally to Robert Smith. And I think I'm probably a

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Speaker 1: bigger Cure fan than I am a fan of the Smith's,

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Speaker 1: even though I love both bands. But it really is

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Speaker 1: amazing to me that Robert Smith generally comes off as

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Speaker 1: like relatively normal and level headed in his interviews, which

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't necessarily expect necessarily if you just listen to

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Speaker 1: his music, or like you see him on stage. Obviously

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Speaker 1: he's wearing all the makeup. He always seems miserable in

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Speaker 1: his music, but then when he's talking to reporters, he

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Speaker 1: seems like a pretty normal guy. Yeah, exactly. He's like,

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Speaker 1: he's funny and he just sounds reasonable. Whereas with Morrissey,

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Speaker 1: the more interviews he's done in his career, the crazier

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Speaker 1: and more irrational he becomes. It's like he's already pretty

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Speaker 1: melodramatic in his lyrics, but like he just is so awful,

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Speaker 1: Like the more he talks so in terms of like

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Speaker 1: their personal dispositions, I feel like that's like a defining

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Speaker 1: difference between these guys. Yeah, I mean, Robert Smith would

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Speaker 1: claim in later years that he was confused why there

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Speaker 1: was even a comparison between the care and the Smiths.

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Speaker 1: Uh it said, there's nothing that links Morrissey and the

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Speaker 1: Care In my mind, as years go by, it's very

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Speaker 1: easy to think we were from the same generation, but

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Speaker 1: we're not, and he's right. I mean, the Cure recorded

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Speaker 1: their first album ight, and the Smith's released their self

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Speaker 1: titled debut in four which is kind of a different

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Speaker 1: mini generation in a way. And I think that the

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Speaker 1: Smith's stuff sounded maybe more like early Care albums, But

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Speaker 1: by the time the Smiths came around, they were doing

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Speaker 1: sort of more synth based, moody, darker, the head on

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Speaker 1: the door type stuff that really didn't sound very similar

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Speaker 1: to the Smith's at all to me, at least. Again,

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Speaker 1: I love both bands. To me, it is natural to

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Speaker 1: compare them. I understand that the Cure started earlier. They

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Speaker 1: are really part of that post punk generation that really emerged,

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Speaker 1: you know, after the sex Pistols in the Clash, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the late seventies. But I think the reason that

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Speaker 1: they get grouped together is that the same kind of

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Speaker 1: person loves both bands, you know, as like, if you

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Speaker 1: love the Smiths, you probably love the Cure, and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: And they just both have I think, a very kind

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Speaker 1: of quintessentially like eighties alternative rock vibe to them. You know. Again,

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Speaker 1: even though the Cure started earlier, they didn't really come

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Speaker 1: into their own until the nineteen eighties. Like with those

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Speaker 1: albums that you mentioned, Head on the Door obviously, kiss Me,

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Speaker 1: kiss Me, Kiss Me, and then I think hitting their

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Speaker 1: culmination like their peak with Disintegration in nine. What I

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Speaker 1: think is interesting about these bands in terms of how

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Speaker 1: they perceived critically is that I think that the Smiths

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Speaker 1: for years had this reputation as being a smarter band. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They were the band that I think critics tended to

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Speaker 1: rate higher than the Cure. The Queen is Dead as

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Speaker 1: a record that you're much more likely to see near

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Speaker 1: the top of like Greatest Albums of All Times lists

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Speaker 1: than you are Disintegration, for instance, even though if given

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Speaker 1: the choice, I would take Disintegration personally over The Queen

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Speaker 1: is Dead. The strength to me of the Smiths is singles.

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Speaker 1: I think they're singles. Collections are excellent, and they have

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Speaker 1: so many songs that I would say are just like

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Speaker 1: perfect songs. There's a light that never goes out and

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Speaker 1: in Glove how Soon is Now? I mean, there's just

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Speaker 1: so many wonderful singles that they have, Whereas I look

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Speaker 1: at The Cure as being more of an album band

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Speaker 1: like they have I think several albums that hold together

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Speaker 1: as statements, whereas again, I think the Smiths you have

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Speaker 1: The Queen is Dead, and then there are other albums

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Speaker 1: to me, are a little spotty here and it's much

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Speaker 1: more about singles. I also think the Cure you have

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Speaker 1: to give them credit for their longevity. You know, they

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Speaker 1: were around before the Smiths, and they were around after

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Speaker 1: the Smiths, And this is another thing that gets overshadowed

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Speaker 1: the Cure. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but to me,

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Speaker 1: they were a much more popular band, especially in America,

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Speaker 1: Like I feel like at her peak, like weren't that

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Speaker 1: you're playing arenas basically like by the time of disintegration, Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think the Smith's ever got to that kind

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Speaker 1: of level, at least here in the United States. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if that worked against them becoming almost

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Speaker 1: more of this like populist favorite. I'm sure Morrissey could

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Speaker 1: throw that back in their face in a lot of

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Speaker 1: ways too. I always thought that the Smiths seemed like

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Speaker 1: it was for a more discerning music fan. I always

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Speaker 1: seem more literate. They tackled social issues, you know, meet

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Speaker 1: his murder, The Queen is Dead. In ways, I don't

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Speaker 1: think the Cure ever really did. I think Robert Smith

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Speaker 1: was mostly writing about himself, and I think that in

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Speaker 1: some ways is one of their great strengths because when

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Speaker 1: he's describing how he's feeling, some often that resonates with

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Speaker 1: all of us, depending on what we're going through in

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Speaker 1: our lives. But I think that also you could argue

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Speaker 1: that Robert Smith seemed a lot more kind of like

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Speaker 1: naval gazey and self obsessed too, and I think that

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Speaker 1: that was the fact that they didn't really look outward

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Speaker 1: quite as much as the Smith's I think ding them

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Speaker 1: definitely at the time, you know, in in uh Thatcher

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Speaker 1: era England, especially when there was sort of a lot

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Speaker 1: to rail against. That was always fascinating to me that

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Speaker 1: that's sort of the political element of their music. I

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Speaker 1: just wonder to what degree Robert Smith internalized the critical

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Speaker 1: conversation around both bands, because and this is something I'm

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Speaker 1: sure he would never admit to personally. But you know, again,

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Speaker 1: like by the end of the eighties, the Cure like

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Speaker 1: had like a legitimate pop hit with love Song. You know,

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Speaker 1: love Song, I believe was like a top five hit

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Speaker 1: just for them, And of course that song has been

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Speaker 1: covered by so many artists since then. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was on one of the Adele Records, which I'm sure

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Speaker 1: bought Robert Smith, like ten houses, you know, just a

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Speaker 1: ton of money, I'm sure from that cover. But again,

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Speaker 1: I feel like for a long time people just took

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Speaker 1: the Smiths more seriously while also dinging The Cure for

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Speaker 1: being again this kind of like adolescent angsty naval gayzey band.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there's an interview that Robert Smith gave

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Speaker 1: I think it pretty much at the height of The

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Speaker 1: Cure's popularity, where he took a shot at Morrissey and

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Speaker 1: he says he's a precious, miserable bastard. He's all the

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Speaker 1: things people think I am. And I think that's a

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Speaker 1: very telling quote because I'm sure Robert Smith felt like, oh,

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Speaker 1: people are you know, they have this caricature of me

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Speaker 1: that I'm just like this sad, bastard guy, and that's

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Speaker 1: preventing some people from you know, giving me my due

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Speaker 1: as like a great songwriter. Like people talk about Morrisey

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Speaker 1: being a great songwriter, but like I like, I'm a

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Speaker 1: great songwriter too, and I asked to write my own

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Speaker 1: music too. But I don't get that kind of love

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Speaker 1: from critics. They don't look at me as a tomb Smith.

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Speaker 1: They look at me as just like this miserable guy,

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Speaker 1: But it's like, what about this other guy, Like he's

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Speaker 1: just as miserable as me, if not more so, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean Robert Smith incredible guitarist, producer and wrote all

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Speaker 1: the Cures music, And I agree with that. And also

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Speaker 1: I think there's a case of maybe like you just

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Speaker 1: like someone because you see elements of yourself and them

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Speaker 1: that that you don't like about yourself. So maybe there

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Speaker 1: was some of that too. It's like no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not that bad, it said him. Look at him,

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Speaker 1: He's even worse than me. So yeah, I could see

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Speaker 1: it being your way as well, being like no, come on,

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Speaker 1: like this is Morrissey actually is a miserable bastard and

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Speaker 1: I do so much more. But also maybe there's some

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Speaker 1: of it just was he worried it did hit too

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Speaker 1: close to home. He did see elements of himself that

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Speaker 1: he didn't like. So these two ended up continuing to

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Speaker 1: snap at each other even after the Smith's broke up.

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Speaker 1: And you know I alluded to this earlier. I mean

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Speaker 1: the Smith's window of time, Like really, isn't that big?

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Speaker 1: I mean they were basically a force in British music

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Speaker 1: for about five years in the mid nineteen eighties. By

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Speaker 1: the end of the eighties, they're finished Johnny Marr, who

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Speaker 1: is a genius guitar player, and I feel like he

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Speaker 1: doesn't get as much credit as he deserves. And that

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Speaker 1: Morrissey mar songwriting partnership, just like the wonderful music that

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Speaker 1: he wrote for those songs. By the way, we have

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Speaker 1: to do a Morrissey versus mar episode at some point

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Speaker 1: that will be amazing. But anyway, like even after the

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Speaker 1: Smith's broke up, Morrissey and Robert Smith continue to take

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Speaker 1: shots at each other. There's this great interview. I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's like a pretty famous quote where Robert Smith

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Speaker 1: was talking about how, you know, Morrissey is this animal

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Speaker 1: rights activist and how that runs counter to just how

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Speaker 1: awful he is to human beings, you know, like he

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Speaker 1: cares more about animals than he does about human beings.

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Speaker 1: And Robert Smith says, this is a great quote. He says,

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Speaker 1: if Morrisey says not to eat meat, then I'm going

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Speaker 1: to eat meat. That's how much I hate Morrison, which

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Speaker 1: possibly my favorite quote of this whole thing. That's great.

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Speaker 1: And then Morrissey of course shoots back. He said, Robert

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Speaker 1: Smith is a fat clown with makeup, weeping over a guitar. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Just like I feel like the Robert Smith quote is

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Speaker 1: like a little more self aware. You know, he's almost

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Speaker 1: like making fun of himself a little bit for how

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Speaker 1: much It's like, I'm just reacting against anything that he

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Speaker 1: does just because this guy annoys me, whereas Morrissey is

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Speaker 1: just like being directly insulting of like, you know, he's

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Speaker 1: calling him fat, you know, he's saying he's weeping over

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Speaker 1: a guitar. And Robert Smith, of course he has a

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Speaker 1: shoot back, you know. He there was an interview that

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Speaker 1: he did around this time with the magazine Zone zero

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Speaker 1: nine where he was talking about his status as a

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Speaker 1: godfather of goth and he doesn't really like that distinction,

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Speaker 1: and he says, I'm tired of being known as a

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Speaker 1: doomy goth casualty. The press tries to portray me as

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Speaker 1: a gloom and doom singer. But take a look at Morrissey.

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Speaker 1: Batman is a professional complainer. Um. So, you know, just

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Speaker 1: going back to what I was saying before, I think

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Speaker 1: this idea, I think that annoyed him, that he was

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Speaker 1: caricatured in this way that I don't think Morrissey was

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Speaker 1: to the same degree at that time. I think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Morrissey definitely was known as this moby artist.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like his songwriting partnership with Johnny Marr,

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Speaker 1: I think people are certainly critics they treated that with

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Speaker 1: a degree of seriousness, almost like likening them to like

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Speaker 1: Lennon McCartney, you know, like the Lennon McCartney of their era.

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Speaker 1: That I don't think they did that with Robert Smith.

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like he got the credit that he

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Speaker 1: deserved as a songwriter at that time, because yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: the Cure had a very distinct image. But you know,

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Speaker 1: if you look at their albums, I mean he's writing

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Speaker 1: all these great songs, and you know, as great as

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Speaker 1: the Smith's are as a singles act, I should mention.

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Speaker 1: I mean Standing on a Beach their compilation of their

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Speaker 1: eighties singles, that's like a defining document of like early

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Speaker 1: alternative rock. I mean, he wrote a lot of great

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Speaker 1: singles too. I think he just felt like, hey, recognize

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Speaker 1: my talent, don't just look at the makeup in like

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Speaker 1: the crazy hair, Like I am producing great material at

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Speaker 1: this time my favorite Robert Smith story from this period,

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Speaker 1: and it might not be true, but I choose to

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Speaker 1: believe it. Have been having trouble source in the quotes

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Speaker 1: for this, but Robert Smith said, I remember running into

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Speaker 1: Morrissey at a Halloween party or something. I went to

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Speaker 1: punch him on the arm, and he just closed his

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Speaker 1: eyes and started crying seeing that. I mean, I'm just

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Speaker 1: imagining a scenario where like Morrissey would go to anyone's

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Speaker 1: Halloween part, right, yeah, And would you do something or

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Speaker 1: would he just be Robert Smith? Of course not, I

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Speaker 1: could see Robert Smith going into a Halloween party. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like Morrissey. Morrissey would never go to a Halloween party.

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Speaker 1: That's the only reason I doubt this story, because I'm

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Speaker 1: just I'm just trying to imagine a scenario like who's

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Speaker 1: holding the Halloween party? Who would be friends with both

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Speaker 1: of these guys and get them both to show up

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Speaker 1: right and make the mistake of inviting them both? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean is that like, uh, you know, I'm just

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Speaker 1: trying to think of like prominent eighties stars, is like

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Speaker 1: Sting having this party is like Bono or like George Michael,

398
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Speaker 1: you know, like who would be having that party said.

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Speaker 1: That's the only reason I doubt that story. Otherwise, I'm

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Speaker 1: like you, I would rather believe it than disbelieve it.

401
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 1: So this all brings us to the Smiths at this

402
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,640
Speaker 1: point are done, passed on into legend, and Morrissey has

403
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Speaker 1: a hit number one on the British charts with his

404
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 1: debut album Viva Hate, which has incredible songs every Day

405
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 1: is like Sunday and swede Head. He's gearing up to

406
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Speaker 1: pro and his second solo disc, Kill Uncle with an

407
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Speaker 1: Interview with the Enemy, which is actually another thing he hates.

408
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Speaker 1: Forgot to mention that earlier, and he takes a stab

409
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Speaker 1: at the Cures Disintegration their masterpiece. I I it's one

410
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Speaker 1: of my favorite albums of all time. I think it's

411
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Speaker 1: their definitive album, one of the best albums of the eighties.

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Speaker 1: I think it's better than any single Smith's record. I

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Speaker 1: mean love songs. You mentioned Pictures of You Homesick, which

414
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Speaker 1: I think might be my favorite Cure song ever, Lullaby,

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Speaker 1: Fascination Street, brilliant album. Morrissey, as one might expect, doesn't

416
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Speaker 1: feel this way. He describes the Cures Seminal record as

417
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Speaker 1: absolutely vial and adds the cure a new dimension to

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Speaker 1: the word crap, which is a great quote. Yeah that's

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Speaker 1: the poll quote. It's very insulting. But I like Robert

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Speaker 1: Smith's response because I actually think his response is funnier

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Speaker 1: than even that great quote, because you know, he was

422
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Speaker 1: told about Morrisey's opinion of Disintegration, and Robert Smith says,

423
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Speaker 1: at least we've added a new dimension in crap, not

424
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Speaker 1: built a career on it. He's definitely much more self

425
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 1: aware in his in his insults back. That's totally right, exactly,

426
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 1: just you know, he's kind of being self deprecating, but yeah,

427
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 1: he's just able to twist it and get it back

428
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 1: on Morrissey. And it's like, Morrisey, give me a break.

429
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 1: Disintegration brilliant record and a very influential record too. I

430
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,399
Speaker 1: mean there's so many types of music, whether it's dream pop,

431
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 1: even like like SoundCloud rappers have like sampled cure songs.

432
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 1: I mean, like Corn has covered Cure songs. I mean,

433
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 1: their influence really extends beyond just this alt rock lane.

434
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 1: And the same is true also of Morrissey. He's also

435
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 1: had a very wide influence. But Disintegration a masterful record.

436
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,119
Speaker 1: All right hand, We'll be right back with more rivals.

437
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 1: It's always interesting me that Robert Smith loggs way more

438
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 1: insults than Morrissey and all of this back and forth,

439
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: and maybe because he's been asked a battle a lot

440
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,159
Speaker 1: more and he's should have been, you know, on the

441
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,239
Speaker 1: defensive in this whole beef. Morrissey's verbal assaults I think

442
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 1: are a lot more potent, but Smith definitely has the frequency. Uh.

443
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 1: In November, he's interviewed by Spin magazine and the Robert

444
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 1: Smith interview title is called Happily ever After, which still

445
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: makes me laugh, and he goes after Morrissey again, saying

446
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 1: I have never liked Morrissey and I still don't. I

447
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 1: think it's hilarious actually what things I've heard about him

448
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,199
Speaker 1: and what he's really like, and his public persona is

449
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 1: so different. He's such an actor, calling him a poser

450
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 1: and rolling Stone. Not too long after, he says, you know,

451
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 1: I'd rather have our fans than his. Our cure fans

452
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 1: are generally quiet, well spoken, and friendly and not pretentious

453
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: in the slightest. Hopefully that reflects on the nature of

454
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,719
Speaker 1: the cure. And he's kind of right, I mean, especially

455
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 1: when you watch interviews with Morrissey, even like pre all

456
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:14,679
Speaker 1: the right wing stuff, like in the early in the

457
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: early eighties, he's kind of frightening. You feel like he

458
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: could turn on you. There's something that very I don't know.

459
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: I always get kind of freaked out watching his old interviews.

460
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 1: Whereas Robert Smith, there's like a gentleness there that, like,

461
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 1: you know, you want to give a hug or something too,

462
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: And I feel like that extends to that case. It's

463
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: not obviously I'm more of a Cure guy than a

464
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: Smith's guy. I feel like that extends to their fans too.

465
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's something about something more sensitive maybe

466
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: about cheer fans. I don't know. Well, you know, again,

467
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 1: I feel like there is quite a bit of overlap

468
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 1: in the fan bases here. And I think that, you know,

469
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 1: if you like the Cure, is a very high likelihood

470
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 1: that you like the Smiths, And if you like the Smiths,

471
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 1: I think there's a likelihood that you like the Cure.

472
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: The difference is that I just think that there's more

473
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 1: Cure fans period, because the Cure, again, like we're talking

474
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: about just like America by itself, I think they were

475
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 1: much bigger in America because like by the end of

476
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: the eighties, like I said before, they were having like

477
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: genuine pop hits, not just like alternative rock hits, but

478
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: like they were played on top forty radio. And you know,

479
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: it makes sense that Adele ended up covering a Cure

480
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 1: song because the Cure really were like a pop band

481
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: in a way that I don't think the Smiths were.

482
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 1: I think they were more so in England than in here,

483
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: but here they were always more of a cult band,

484
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: and the Cure isn't often described as like a populist band,

485
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: but I think in this dynamic anyway, they are the

486
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 1: more populist group. They are the band that you just

487
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 1: had a wider repeal. And as we were saying earlier,

488
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: I think in a way, you know, because of the

489
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: indie politics at the time, that made the Cure less

490
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 1: cool than the Smiths. You know, the Smith's always had

491
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 1: that hip outsider status that the Cure was never going

492
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: to have. Of course, as those indie polics matter less

493
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: and less as we get farther and farther away from

494
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: like the eighties and nineties, I think that coincides with

495
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: the Cure's reputation getting better, and maybe the Smith's diminishing

496
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: a little bit. But of course that's also due to

497
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: the fact that Morrissey, starting in the early nineties, takes

498
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: a very bizarre left turn toward being basically a right

499
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: wing lunatic. And that evolution begins, I guess, like in

500
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: En two, like he was performing at this music festival

501
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: in England and he put a union jack around himself,

502
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 1: and of course, you know, we think about the who

503
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: flying a union jack in the nineteen sixties, and I

504
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: think back then it was this idea of just being

505
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: proud to be from England, you know, and which is

506
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: something that we also see in The Kinks at that time,

507
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: writing specifically about England in the face of like America

508
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: just being such a big cultural force in the world.

509
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: But by the early nineties, like the symbolism of like

510
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: a union jacket had changed quite a bit and really

511
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: kind of turned into this like symbol of nationalism in England.

512
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: And I just wonder, like to what degree, you know,

513
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: Morrissey did a great job of this earlier in the episode,

514
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: talking about all the things that he hates. The man

515
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: is an elitist, and it seems like his elitism is

516
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: really starting to take an ugly turn at this time

517
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: where it's not just like a funny like you know, misanthropic,

518
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: like I'm giving fun quotes in an interview, it's like

519
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: actually sort of leaking into his worldview, like where he

520
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: actually does think he's better than other people. Yeah, I

521
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: mean this was like pre britpop and in that era,

522
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: as you said, it would definitely have more right wing connotations.

523
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: And at this festival he is performing at, there was

524
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: apparently a large Skinhead contingent there and it was felt

525
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: that it was sort of signaling to these nationalists extremist groups.

526
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: And at the time, the Enemy had a headline with

527
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: a picture of Morrissey on stage at that festival flying

528
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: the flag or flirting with disaster. So it definitely it

529
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: got noticed at that time, and in fact, Morrissey was

530
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 1: so piste off by that headline that he refused to

531
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: talk to the Enemy for like a decade or something.

532
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: So um So, yeah, this was something that started early

533
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: on in the nineties, and it's interesting to me that,

534
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: for all their differences, Robert Smith never went in on

535
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: Morrissey for his controversial statements or any of his sort

536
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: of out there political views. Which became much much, much

537
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: more pronounced as the decade went on at but was

538
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: interesting given their feud that he never went there. I mean,

539
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: I think Robert Smith was smart enough to know that,

540
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,479
Speaker 1: like Morrissey is owning herself with this stuff. It's like,

541
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: what do I need to say? He's making a fool

542
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: of himself, so you know, just let him continue to

543
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: make a fool of himself. At this point, we're used

544
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: to Morrissey, you know, all the terrible quotes that he's

545
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: had over the years, and we're going to get into

546
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: some of those later in this episode. I think people

547
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: are used to it by now, but I really feel

548
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: like there's maybe a sense of portrayal started to come

549
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: in to play with fans in the nineties that you know,

550
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: Morrissey was at his best associated with the underdog. You know,

551
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: he was the music of like alienated people, people on

552
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: the outside, and to embrace this sort of ideology it's

553
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: so strange. But at the same time, if you think

554
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: of him ultimately as an elitist, it does have a weird,

555
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: kind of twisted sense of logic to it. Yeah, we'll

556
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: get more than this later too, but especially but we're

557
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: betrayal I think is definitely the perfect one. It's been

558
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: hard for a lot of fans who looked to him

559
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: as somebody for soulace when they felt alone and isolated

560
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: and sort of outpressed in the eighties. I think it's

561
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: been really hard to rationalize the music that came from

562
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: that person to the public statements that he says. Now.

563
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 1: Back in two thousand four, The Cure and Morrissey faced

564
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: off in the charts again. They both had back to

565
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: back releases of Morrissey's You Are the Cory Uh in May,

566
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: and The Cure had a self titled album the following month.

567
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: And um, I guess it's probably fair to say at

568
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: this point both of their relevance had really faded significantly

569
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: and they kind of began the slide into more of

570
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna call him nostalgia acts, but they definitely

571
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: didn't have the same critical and cultural potency that they

572
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: once did. But Robert Smith was being interviewed for his

573
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: new album, and he still took the opportunity to slag

574
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: off Morrissey just for old time Sick. In an interview

575
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: with Entertainment Weekly, he said Morrissey was constantly saying horrible

576
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 1: things about the cure. In the end, I kind of

577
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: snapped and started retaliating, and it turned into some kind

578
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: of petty feud. I've never liked anything he's done musically,

579
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: but I don't have any kind of strong feelings of

580
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: animosity towards him as a person because I've never met him.

581
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: Maybe that halloween aories think so his music sucks, but

582
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: he might not be a jerk. I can't say for sure,

583
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: but you know, I've never met him and I probably

584
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: never will because I actually do hate his guts. There

585
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: was I guess, an official like piece of chord between

586
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: these guys that began. In twenty nineteen, Morsey gave an

587
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: interview where he was sounding off on a wide range

588
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: of issues, including his very problematic I guess political points

589
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: of view, but he also ended up talking about Robert Smith,

590
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: and Morsey was like, actually, I think weirdly conciliatory in

591
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: this context. He said, I said some terrible things about

592
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: him thirty five years ago, but I didn't mean them.

593
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: I was just being very grange Hill, which I guess

594
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: is a British like teen soap opera. It's great when

595
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: you can blame everything on Turette's syndrome. So is that

596
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: is that an apology? Yeah? Yeah, I mean the word

597
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: regret is in there, I suppose, yeah, But the Turette's

598
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: thing at the end is definitely I count that legally

599
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: as an apology. I don't know about Sincere. I just

600
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: feel like an apology means except getting responsibility for what

601
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: you've done, and I feel like he did not accept

602
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: responsibility at the end. But we're talking about Morrissey here,

603
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: so this is as close as as we're going to

604
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: get to an apology. And of course Robert Smith has

605
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: to respond, and he gave an interview to the Enemy

606
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: where he says it was slightly odd as I haven't

607
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: really had it at the forefront of my consciousness over

608
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: the last twenty or thirty years. I don't know even

609
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: at the time, I never quite understood what the problem was.

610
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: It's far from important right now. Which I love that

611
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: response because it's very like Walter sob Check and the

612
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: big Lebowski is saying, which, by the way, Robert Smith,

613
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: who look, we both love, he's being like pretty disingenuous

614
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: here because he's basically saying, like, I haven't even thought

615
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: about this in thirty years. Meanwhile, we've just listed several

616
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: quotes of him slagging off Morrissey that we're well within that,

617
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: you know, twenty or thirty year window. So I mean, look,

618
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: maybe he only thought about it when journalists asked him

619
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: about it, but he's certainly never backed away from taking

620
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: a shot at Morrissey when he had the opportunity. But again,

621
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's clear that, like when you get beyond

622
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: the insults that Robert Smith, it seems like he was

623
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: genuinely hurt. Going back to that four interview where Morrisey

624
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: said that he would shoot him and Marky Smith. It

625
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: was this interview that he did with The Guardian where

626
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: he says, I felt it was unfair that he would

627
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: shoot me. If you asked him again, he might choose

628
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: to shoot himself rather than me or whoever else it was.

629
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: So he still cares, It still cares that. It's like,

630
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: I don't care, I haven't thought about in thirty years.

631
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: But I also remember this interview where he said that

632
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: he would shoot me, you know, So again, be a

633
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: little disingenuous there, but I appreciate the calmer than you are,

634
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: you know defense there. I think that's always a good thing.

635
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: Like we're like, well, but you you're acting like you care.

636
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: I've never even cared at all, Like, so I'm clearly

637
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: the winner here. This all begs the question did Marky

638
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: Smith ever respond any of this? Well, I mean, Marky

639
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: Smith is an even bigger mr probe than Morrissey, So

640
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure that he would like get a

641
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 1: like a machine gun and like mow them down if

642
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: you ask Marky Smith. So maybe Robert Smith is being

643
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: a little more generous at this stage, because we've said

644
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: Morrissey is becoming something of a pariah due to his

645
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: string of really increasingly controversial quotes about race and immigration

646
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: and the meat too movement. UH. In the last fifteen years,

647
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: Morrissey's transformed into basically a one man assault on political correctness.

648
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: And again it's interesting that Robert smithther came to him

649
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: for that. But again, like you said, it was just

650
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: such an easy target. And for a while I was

651
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: tempting to try to write off everything morris He said

652
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: as really being like intentionally provocative just for attention, But

653
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: as time went on, it really got harder and harder

654
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: to ignore, Like is he being deliberately provocative? Is he

655
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: being like a pro wrestler villain or is it a

656
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: case of big mouth strikes again? You know, I mean,

657
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: his his uh misanthropic tendencies curdled into these really reprehensible beliefs.

658
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: And we won't go too deep into this because that's

659
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: the whole other episode of you know, Morrissey versus everyone

660
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,479
Speaker 1: who isn't Morrissey, but it's worth noting because I think

661
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: it really impacted the Smith's reputation in a way that's

662
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: relevant to the Smith's versus cure argument. And you know,

663
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: in the early days, Morrissey was this paragon of left

664
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: wing ideology. He was anti Thatcher with Margaret on the guillotine,

665
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: he was anti monarchy with Queen is Dead, and uncompromising

666
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: attitude towards animal rights. Meet his murder, he was really

667
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: explicit and his hatred of blue blooded establishment and control

668
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: of songs like the Headmaster ritual. Uh when has how

669
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: we feel if somebody murdered Margaret Thatcher in the eighties,

670
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: he replied, obviously I'd marry that person. So you know,

671
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: he's definitely as left wing as you can come in

672
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: this era. And those songs are all about the downtrodden,

673
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: lonely outsiders, you know, Mexico, And that's an extra from

674
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: the you were the Choreyott takes takes on white privilege.

675
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: It seems if you're rich and you're white, you'll be

676
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: all right. I just don't see why this should be.

677
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: So it's crazy when you contrast like those early songs

678
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: with like that two thousand seven interview that he did

679
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: with the Enemy, where I feel like that was like

680
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: him really going off the deep end. Oh yes, that

681
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: was when I think he ended up suing them for

682
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: that too. It's just it's really confusing for like this

683
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: first generation Irish Catholic immigrants speaking out so strongly against

684
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: what he saw is really lax immigration policies in the UK.

685
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: He says, although I don't have anything against people from

686
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: other countries, the higher the influx into England, the more

687
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: the British identity disappears. You walk through Knightsbridge and have

688
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: a neighborhood in London on any Bland day of the week,

689
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: you won't hear an English accent. England is a memory.

690
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: Now the gates are flooded and anybody can have access

691
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: to England and join in. And he ended up taking

692
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: the enemy to court for libel, saying that the quotes

693
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: were taken out of context, and he got an apology

694
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 1: from the magazine. But then a couple of years later,

695
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: in twos ten, he does an interview with The Guardian

696
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: Weekend magazine and he referred to Chinese people as quote

697
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: a subspecies. And this is in response to their treatment

698
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: of animals. Horrendous. Absolutely, yeah, I mean, and and it

699
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: keeps going. I mean. He said awful things about London's mayor,

700
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: Sadik Khan, saying that he talk properly at some quotes,

701
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: and he he reportedly responded to the terrorist attack in

702
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: his hometown of Manchester in seventeen by criticizing immigration, despite

703
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: the fact that the perpetrator wasn't an immigrant, so it

704
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with that at all. He reportedly

705
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: said that Berlin had become quote the rape capital of

706
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: the world due to its open borders. Really bad, and

707
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: whenever people would ask him he's a racist, he's quoted

708
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: as saying variations on the word racist is meaningless. Now

709
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: everyone ultimately prefers their own race. Does this make everyone racist? Uh? Yeah,

710
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 1: you know. Once you say everyone ultimately prefers their own race,

711
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 1: like you're pretty much like like way on the slippery slope.

712
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: It just gets worse after that. You know, he's been

713
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: a Brexit supporter, you know, he's been a vocal critic

714
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: of me too, And I just feel like all this stuff,

715
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: as you were saying earlier, it's just like hurt the

716
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: reputation of the Smiths, because if you love the Smiths,

717
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: not only because they had great music, but because you

718
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: thought they signified something about being an alienated outsider, that

719
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: this was going to be music that like spoke for you,

720
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: you know, as someone who doesn't feel comfortable in the

721
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: mainstream of society. You know, you looked at Morrissey as

722
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: a hero, you looked at someone You looked at him

723
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: as someone who's gonna like stand up for you and

724
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: and and people like you. So to see him do

725
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: this hell turn that he's done in the last fifteen

726
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: years or twenty years or so, you know, even if

727
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: in his mind he feels like, well, I'm just reacting

728
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: to what I feel is like sort of stifling political

729
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: correctness and I'm being provocative, I'm being interesting. Even if

730
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: that is what is at play here, it just takes

731
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: away what he wants signified to people, and it just

732
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: makes his songs seem phony. And I think with an

733
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: artist like Morrissey, authenticity is so important, you know. But

734
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: it's like, you can't listen to those records now without

735
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: hearing these quotes in your head, and it just plays

736
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: against I think what those records originally meant to people. Yeah, absolutely,

737
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, Morrissey very famously has a

738
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 1: huge following in the Latin American community because his songs

739
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: speak to that sense of otherness as they, you know,

740
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: try to they leave their home behind and try to

741
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 1: assimilate New American culture. So I'm sure that the abrupt

742
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 1: face specifically on the issue of immigration was really hurtful

743
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: to a lot of them. There was some really interesting

744
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: interviews out there with Latin American Morrissey fans speaking about

745
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: how how they're coming to two terms with with these

746
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: things that he says, and it is very hurtful. And

747
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, in in England there have been some stores

748
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: that won't suck his records anymore, and subway posters in

749
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: uh I think in the UK were taken down for

750
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: some of his new albums too, So there's been increasing

751
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: blowback as his statements have gotten more and more extreme.

752
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: Concurrent with this was the Cure's reputation receiving kind of

753
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 1: a shot in the arm and the two thousand tens

754
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: and for years, as we said earlier, the Cure we're

755
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: sort of scene as this doomy, self serious, melo dramatic

756
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: teenage band, and the fact that they were a commercial success,

757
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: much bigger than the Smiths in the US was sort

758
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: of a liability because, like as we said, made them

759
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: this cheap, populous act in the eyes of many taste makers,

760
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: especially when compared with the Smiths of like cool Wit,

761
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: it's really incredible. And the Enemy in December of two

762
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: thousand named the most influential artist of all time. The

763
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: Smiths flogged in at number ten. The Cure didn't place

764
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: at all. When Enemy ranked the fifty greatest artists of

765
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: all time in two thousand two, the Smith's edged out

766
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 1: the Beatles for the number one spot and the Cure

767
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: didn't appear at all. That's just crazy to me. I

768
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: think it makes more sense for British Music magazine to

769
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: do that, because the Smith's clearly just meant more in

770
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: England than they met in the United States. But to

771
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: not even put the Cure on the list at all

772
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: is like so crazy to me when again, you look

773
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: at the length of their career, which really goes from

774
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: the late seventies until like the mid nineties. As far

775
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: as them being like a really relevant hit making band,

776
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: I mean, that's like a twenty year run, which is

777
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 1: impressive for any band. But if you look at again,

778
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 1: like the quality of their catalog again, having multiple albums

779
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: that I think are really excellent, it just shows like

780
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: how much they were underappreciated. I have to think too that,

781
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: you know, the disposition of Robert's Smith versus Morrissey. I

782
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: just feel like that's become so much clearer now in

783
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. And you know, we were talking

784
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: about this earlier about how if you want a caricature

785
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: Robert Smith as just like this miserable, sad bastard type

786
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: that really falls apart when you see interviews with him

787
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: or you read interviews where I just generally find him

788
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 1: to be a very self aware, funny, smart guy. And

789
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking about that moment when the

790
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: Cure were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of

791
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: Fame in twenty nineteen, there was that viral video of

792
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,919
Speaker 1: Robert Smith being interviewed on the red carpet before going

793
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: into the theater. Did you see that video? It's hilarious, Like,

794
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: this is very excited woman interviewing Robert Smith and and

795
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: she asks like, are you as excited as I am

796
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: to be here tonight? And Robert Smith just kind of

797
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: looks at her and says, well, it doesn't look like it,

798
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: you know. And it is very low key, like almost

799
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: like a Larry David type desposition, And it's hilarious. And

800
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: it just shows like again like he seems like a

801
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: guy who knows who he is. He's comfortable with this

802
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: place in like music history and music culture. And you know,

803
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: you mentioned self serious as being a tag that was

804
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: put on the Cure. He actually doesn't seem to take

805
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: himself that seriously. No, not. I don't even get you know,

806
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 1: missing throat vibes from him necessarily. I get somebody who

807
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: just doesn't want to deal with all the sort of

808
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: bullshit that goes along with having to be like, you know,

809
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: playing arenas like the Cure did and stuff like that.

810
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: The older he gets, the more I just see, you said,

811
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: a low key guy. So before we go to the

812
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: pro case for each side. We have to answer the

813
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: looming question that's been in the air since the start

814
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: of this episode, which is who would win in an

815
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: actual fight between them? You got Morrissey Pope or Rock

816
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: sad Clown? What do you think? You know? Neither one

817
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: of them seem like they're in great shape. I mean,

818
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: I guess Morrissey is probably like a bit better shape

819
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: than Robert Smith. You know. I just see them circling

820
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: each other and saying mean things to each other without

821
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: actually throwing a punch, and then at some point just

822
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: getting bored and wandering off. It's really hard for me

823
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: to imagine them actually coming to physical blows, Like what

824
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: do you think? Do you think they could actually land

825
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,479
Speaker 1: a punch on each other? I could see maybe one

826
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: coming from Robert Smith. I could see him having a

827
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: sadistic streak. But I could see, you know, Morrissey just

828
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: laying down to welcome the sweet relief of death. That's

829
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: where I'm at. We're gonna take a quick break and

830
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: get a word from our sponsor before we get to

831
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: more rivals. Okay, we've reached the part of our episode

832
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: where we give the pro side of each part of

833
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: the rivalry. Let's talk about The Smith's first. One of

834
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: the greatest singles bands of all time as far as

835
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: I'm concerned. I mean, a few bands have as many

836
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: just like perfect pop songs as the Smith's, do you know?

837
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: And I a literated to this earlier. We haven't really

838
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: talked about Johnny Marr in this episode. I think that

839
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: he is a really crucial part of what makes The

840
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: Smith's magical. And I'll say that, like, if you don't

841
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: want to listen to the Smiths because you find Morrissey

842
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: is so annoying, don't forget that Johnny Marr is a

843
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: big part of that band and they're still worth listening

844
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: to even if you find the lead singer irritating, just

845
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: because of his wonderful guitar playing. And it must be

846
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: said about Morrissey, you know, as obnoxious as he can be,

847
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: he really is like a pretty brilliant lyricist, and I

848
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: think in his prime he is like one of the

849
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: great British pop rock lyricists of all time. Uh, And

850
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: it's a shame that that talent gets overshadowed by some

851
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: of this other stuff. But yeah, I mean wonderful song

852
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: titles too. I mean, he could title a song as

853
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: well as anybody. Oh yeah, I think he's one of

854
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: the few musicians whose lyrics worked on that you get

855
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: almost as much out of him on the page, you know,

856
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: I mean their poetry, they're so witty and insightful. He

857
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: took the ordinary and dramatized it in such a way

858
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: that was just so relatable. These characters that are just

859
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: steeped in insecurity and shame, and no one expresses loneliness

860
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: and angst like Morrissey. I mean, it was funny, it

861
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: was sad, it was angry, it was defeated, it was defiant.

862
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: I mean often all in the same song. Unparalleled lyricist.

863
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 1: And you know, we've said all through the episode it's

864
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: pretty much accepted that the Smiths with the most you know,

865
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: in quotes important band. But it's insane how prolific they

866
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: were just for their five years streak. And I think

867
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways it's the Hendrix effect. They

868
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: never got to be middle age and make their bad

869
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: Clapton albums. You know, the Smith's never made old sock.

870
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 1: You know, as much as I prefer the Cure for

871
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: the song by song comparison of their peak eras the

872
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: Smiths might have an edge. I think the Smith's peaks

873
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: were maybe higher. What do you think that's I although

874
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,720
Speaker 1: I do prefer I think that the Cures catalog overall

875
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: more so. Yeah, I mean, I think the Hendrix comparison

876
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: is after like the Velvet Underground or Big Star, any

877
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: of these bands that have a short life, but everything

878
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: they put out was more or less essential. And that

879
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: seems to be true of the Smiths, even though I

880
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: don't think that their albums from that period are as

881
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: good as the Cure albums with maybe with the exception

882
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: of The Queen is Dead. But to me again as

883
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: a singles band, they're really great and uh definitely one

884
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: of the best singles bands of their era, and really

885
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: I think of all time, like they're in that kind

886
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: versation if you go over to the Cure side again,

887
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: a longer career, a deeper catalog, and I think they

888
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: have like a wider range of influence. I mean, going

889
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: back to that list that you were talking about earlier

890
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: on how the Smiths were ranked higher than the Cure,

891
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: I guess the Cure wasn't even on that list of

892
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: like most influential British fans but if you look at

893
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: the people that have covered Cure songs, it's like everyone

894
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: from Adele to Corn to Little Peep. You know, they've

895
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: either covered Cure songs or they they've sampled them. I

896
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: think that speaks to the Cures again, more populist appeal. Uh.

897
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 1: You know, they were a band that sold more records

898
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: in the Smiths. They had like bigger hits at least,

899
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 1: you know, certainly here in America. And I think they

900
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: continue to speak to outsiders, maybe even more than the

901
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: Smiths do. Also, you know, as we've reiterated time and

902
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: again in this episode, Robert Smith is just a more

903
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: likable person than Morrissey, you know, like I cheer for

904
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: him in a way that I don't for Morrissey. Yeah,

905
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, so much of what the Smith

906
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: seems so attached to their place and time, and maybe

907
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 1: some of that is because they're sort of directly tackling

908
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: social issues. If Morrissey's lears talked to being an awkward, angsty,

909
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: boring kid of a certain era and culture, I think

910
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: the Cure songs are what being an angsty team felt like,

911
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: you know, what those epic mood pieces like homesick, like

912
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: just the songs are just ecstatic highs, like just like Heaven,

913
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 1: and then these deep dark loads like that that three

914
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 1: minute opening part to Homesick with that like mournful piano part.

915
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: I mean the Cure masters of like the three minute

916
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: instrumental intro. I just want to say, like, oh, Disintegration

917
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: has that exactly, And I think that the Cure sound

918
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: is so much more unique than the Smith's. I kind

919
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: of feel about the Smiths the same way that I

920
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: do about Blur and sometimes even the Kinks. It's that

921
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 1: it's not for me, you know. I can appreciate it academically,

922
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: and the melodies are always gorgeous, but the lyrics again

923
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: seems so tied to a specific time, place and culture,

924
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: and obviously they can relate to the loneliness and alienation,

925
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why Morrissey has such

926
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: a strong following in the Latin American community. His words

927
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: are obviously able to speak to more than just those

928
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: who grew up in you know, northern England in the

929
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: recession of the late seventies and the right wing Thatcher

930
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: era of the eighties. But there's something about you know,

931
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: Morrissey and his prime He had this chiseled, good looking face,

932
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: great haircut, pompadour, and he was sort of like the

933
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: idealized outsider that we all kind of wanted to be.

934
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 1: And Robert Smith, with this sort of scraggly hair and

935
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: his off putting, kind of bizarre makeup and kind of

936
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: hunt shoulders, he was almost more how I think he

937
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: seemed like one of us. He seemed like one of

938
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: the shy, awkward kids, you know. I think of uh

939
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: Chuck Closterman's famous essay about Billy Joel about how why

940
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: Billy Joel could never be cool because whenever he looks

941
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: at Billy Joel, he sees himself. I think that's how

942
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 1: I think about Robert Smith. You know, when I look

943
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 1: at him, I just relate to to him so much.

944
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: I just see myself in so many ways. And maybe

945
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: that's why he's my favorite of the two. So if

946
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: we look at these two bands together, look I like

947
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,720
Speaker 1: both bands. I think most people like both bands, and

948
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: I like that they hate I don't think that this

949
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: rivalry actually impedes on anyone's enjoyment of the other band.

950
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: It's not like Oasis versus Blur, where people felt compelled

951
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: to take a side. You know, if you like one band,

952
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 1: you probably like the other. And I think the dislike

953
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: that they had actually enhances our love of the Smith's

954
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 1: and the Cure, because there's all this great fodder. You know,

955
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: they were slagging each other, and they did it in

956
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 1: a really funny, entertaining way. Yeah. I can't think of

957
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,919
Speaker 1: any case where, you know, if any Smith's fans were

958
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: staunch anti Cure or vice versa, I don't really, I

959
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: can't really think of any examples of that really happening.

960
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: Like you said, the debate was all about which one

961
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: of the bands was better than the other, and Morrisey,

962
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 1: I think it was more of an iconic cultural force.

963
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: But I think the music of The Cure is going

964
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: to continue to endure and probably proved to be more

965
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: influential of the two bands. I'm gonna argue, but maybe

966
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 1: I'm just buy us and just I'm a former Cure kid. Well, Steve,

967
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: to die by your side as we pick apart rivalries

968
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: would be the most heavenly way to die. Would you say,

969
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: it's just like heaven? Yes, yes, I would. Well, now

970
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: that we got to punt out of the way, I

971
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 1: think it's time to bid everyone goodbye, so thank you

972
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: for listening to this episode of Rivals. We will be

973
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: back with more beefs and feuds and long simmering resentments

974
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: next week. Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio.

975
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The

976
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: supervising producers are Taylor Chicogne and Tristan McNeil. The producer

977
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 1: is Joel hat Stat. I'm Jordan's run Talk. I'm Stephen Hyden.

978
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave

979
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 1: us a review. For more podcast for my heart Radio,

980
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

981
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows