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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Josh here and for this week's Select

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Speaker 1: I chosen our July twenty nineteen episode on the Move bombing.

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Speaker 1: It's a very disturbing, little known event in American history

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Speaker 1: when the Philadelphia Police Department dropped a firebomb onto a

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Speaker 1: row home where a radical group was hold up, about

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Speaker 1: half of whom were children. It ended, as anyone would expect,

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Speaker 1: in terrible tragedy. I hope you get a lot out

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Speaker 1: of this episode.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. There's Chuck.

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Speaker 1: There's Josh. You got to get used to this, Chuck.

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Speaker 3: We will eventually.

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Speaker 1: It's the new normal.

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Speaker 3: Yep, and this is stuff you should know.

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Speaker 1: The uh, I can't believe it's happened. Edition one of many.

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Speaker 3: One of many. Yeah, this sparked off a lot of

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Speaker 3: ideas too.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, how the Phillies work?

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Speaker 3: No, what's up with the Philly fanatic?

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Speaker 1: That's the green one? Right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great character. Sure, so.

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Speaker 1: Let's dispense with all that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, thisre's gonna be a long one, so let's

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Speaker 3: just jump in.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So back in nineteen eighty five, in May, Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: Police Department became the first and to this point only

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Speaker 1: police department to drop a bomb on American soil. No

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Speaker 1: police department has ever bombed anything in the history of America.

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Speaker 1: But they did, and they happened to bomb a house

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Speaker 1: that was occupied at the time with thirteen people, seven

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Speaker 1: of which were children. And the people in this house

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Speaker 1: were members of an organization called Move Move all caps

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Speaker 1: but it's not an acronym, Nope. And they did the

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Speaker 1: because Move had made themselves quite a nuisance in the neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: to say the least. And there was basically by this

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Speaker 1: time in May nineteen eighty five, a bitter feud between

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Speaker 1: Move and the Philadelphia Police Department, and on May thirteenth,

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Speaker 1: it came to a fiery and tragic and it's a.

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Speaker 2: Nice setup, thank you. You should have music playing or something.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully Josh will do that, because God knows, Jerry's not

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Speaker 1: going to sunt anywhere. Anyone knows where she is.

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Speaker 2: So you want to go back in time and talk

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Speaker 2: a little bit about Move and their origins, and then

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Speaker 2: go forward in time.

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Speaker 1: I would like to.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that what you said?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 3: So Move is still around at the times.

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Speaker 2: Over the years, they've been called a cult, they've been

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Speaker 2: called a Black liberation movement.

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Speaker 3: Back to Earth, a terrorist group, animal rights group.

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Speaker 2: There are all these things to a certain degree here

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Speaker 2: and there. Although the the leader won mister Vincent Leppard,

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Speaker 2: who everyone, by the way, if you hear say the

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Speaker 2: name so and so Africa, once you become a member

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Speaker 2: of move you take on the last name of Africa.

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Speaker 2: Which even though they weren't strictly a group for African Americans,

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Speaker 2: they had white people early on. They definitely kind of

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Speaker 2: got that rap a little bit more because of the

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Speaker 2: Black Power movement and the fact that the leader was black.

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Speaker 2: Changed his name to Africa and asked everyone else to

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Speaker 2: change their last name to Africa.

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Speaker 3: But though not legally, I don't think.

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Speaker 1: No no, but ultimately it was well, they wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: done it legally because that's part of the system, and

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Speaker 1: the system was one of the things they real against.

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Speaker 1: There were basically two prongs to John Africa's philosophy. One

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Speaker 1: was that basically all life is important and equally important. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so there was a lot of animal rights stuff. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot of not eating meat. Ostensibly it was

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Speaker 1: there vegetarianism in there there was, although they weren't strict vegetarians, no,

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Speaker 1: but yes, but there was an animal rights and protection

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Speaker 1: in the sanctity of life. And then the second was

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Speaker 1: that the system, as they called it, was inherently flawed

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Speaker 1: because everything that was created by humans was flawed, and

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Speaker 1: therefore not only should not be used, but the whole

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Speaker 1: system should be taken down and replaced with a much

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Speaker 1: more natural, animalistic philosophy and way of life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So that includes electricity, that includes like cooking meat, like

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Speaker 2: these kids ate raw chicken, believe it or not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the kids who were raised in the movement, and

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Speaker 3: this is.

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Speaker 2: This story would make a lot more sense if this

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Speaker 2: was on like some deserted island and someone was moving

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Speaker 2: there to start this utopian society on an island. This

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Speaker 2: is a very interesting story in that it happened in

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Speaker 2: a densely populated area of rowhouses in Westvilleladelphia.

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Speaker 1: Born and not where you would I can't not think

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Speaker 1: I hear West Philadelphia.

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Speaker 2: I thought of it too. It's when you go back

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Speaker 2: and look at the footage. And by the way, there's

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Speaker 2: a great documentary called Let It Burn, Let the Fire Burn,

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Speaker 2: that you should pay for online.

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Speaker 3: I did, that's good on Amazon Prime, and uh, well

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Speaker 3: I'm a Prime member, so so am I Okay?

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Speaker 1: I still had to pay to rent it though, because

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Speaker 1: Amazon's part of the system.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Uh where was that going?

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Speaker 1: Uh? You were saying that it would make more sense

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Speaker 1: on a deserted island than I should in a densely

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Speaker 1: populated neighborhood Philadelphia.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So when you're watching this documentary and there's so much footage,

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Speaker 2: it's crazy to see this house, this row house, set

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Speaker 2: up with you know, farm animals at times in the

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Speaker 2: front yard, heavily fenced.

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Speaker 1: In, fortified like a fortress.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes people standing outside with guns. Even though we'll

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Speaker 2: see later these guns were later found out to be

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Speaker 2: not capable of firing bullets, which means, well, I guess

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Speaker 2: it's still a gun, but it means it's not a weapon.

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Speaker 1: It's a club.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sort of. But at the very least, it's just

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Speaker 3: it's an odd setting for this story.

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Speaker 1: It isn't when you watch that documentary that house sticks

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Speaker 1: out like a sore thumb like this.

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Speaker 2: They had Amish people probably an hour and a half

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Speaker 2: away from this, doing the same thing out in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the country.

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Speaker 3: Not the exact same thing, but you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: But you can't get a good cheese steak in Amish country.

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Speaker 3: Much less a good raw one.

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Speaker 1: You can get good stick candy because they know what

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Speaker 1: they're doing with that stuff.

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Speaker 3: Nice furniture, butter Sure, what was.

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Speaker 1: It rum Springer where they get to go crazy or

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Speaker 1: whatever and see if they want to live the Amish life?

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Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I think that was it.

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Speaker 1: That was a good one, good time ago.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, it's a very interesting setting for the story.

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Speaker 2: It got caught up in or maybe unfairly pegged as

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Speaker 2: black liberation, like I said, but sort of because of

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Speaker 2: the time in which it happened, which was in the

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Speaker 2: in the seventies and early eighties when the Black Panther

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Speaker 2: Party was in power. There was a former Black Panther

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Speaker 2: that later would join the move movement.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but from all I saw in that documentary, that

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Speaker 1: person was interviewed and he makes it sound like rather

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Speaker 1: than bringing the Black Panther ideas to well.

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Speaker 3: That's where he left.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he he took our moves ideals rather than the

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Speaker 1: discarded the Black Panthers idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he was disillusioned with the Black Panthers

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Speaker 2: because of the violence. And it should be pointed out

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Speaker 2: that that Africa's whole thing was was his whole thing

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Speaker 2: was non violence, but it wasn't like that was at

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Speaker 2: the forefront of like his everyday talkings, because they very

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Speaker 2: aggressively and very obscenely blasted their message through these loud

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Speaker 2: speakers attached to this row house, which was a real

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Speaker 2: problem in this neighborhood for everyone this you know, black neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: They didn't want them there either. No, that's don't drop

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Speaker 2: a bottom on them, right, which is what one of them,

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Speaker 2: being interviewed very clearly was like, we didn't want this

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Speaker 2: to happen, but you know, they were a threat to

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Speaker 2: our well being here in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they were also deliberately provocative. They they purposefully

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Speaker 1: made a nuisance ode of themselves because part of Moves

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Speaker 1: philosophy was waking everybody else up and doing it in

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Speaker 1: a really aggressive, hostile.

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Speaker 3: Agitation threatening way.

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Speaker 1: Supposedly, some neighbors reported that they were directly threatened by

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Speaker 1: this group, which is a big problem too. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's definitely a couple steps up from agitating or aggravating

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Speaker 1: people threatening them is different.

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Speaker 2: Sure, but at the very least, you know, imagine being

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Speaker 2: a neighbor who has lived in this house for twenty

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Speaker 2: years and all of a sudden there's this organization right

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Speaker 2: living there, and at three in the morning, it's just

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Speaker 2: blasting out, you know, these mfors that are in charge

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Speaker 2: or fin this and f and that, right, and like

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Speaker 2: I felt sorry for these citizens.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you know, there's a lot of.

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Speaker 2: Empathy like to be dispersed among many parts of this story.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but the story also this basically, this story has

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Speaker 1: two types of people in it.

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Speaker 3: Villains and innocence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just virtually there's a there's one hero that you

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Speaker 1: can point to, and he doesn't even appear in this article.

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Speaker 1: He was in the documentary, which we'll talk about him

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Speaker 1: for a minute later. But it's mostly.

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Speaker 3: Just people.

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Speaker 1: The adults acting badly and the children or the people

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Speaker 1: in the neighborhood who are innocent bystanders or pawns in

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Speaker 1: this whole thing.

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Speaker 3: Victims. Yeah, for sure, for.

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Speaker 1: Sure, Because when you're talking about like blaaring your philosophy

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Speaker 1: in a very hostile, foul mouthed way. If you see

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Speaker 1: the pictures of the house, like those loud speakers that

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Speaker 1: they have at like stock car races or whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what they had posted.

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Speaker 3: Out on the house. It wasn't just some guy with

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Speaker 3: a bullhorn oring like.

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Speaker 1: That that walkie talkie thing that Homer Simpson had at

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Speaker 1: the yard sale out Now.

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Speaker 3: You can hear this along the whole block, right in

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Speaker 3: every direction.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and if you were anywhere near them, if your

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Speaker 1: house was next door or even a couple of doors down,

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Speaker 1: you heard them night and day, and it was a

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Speaker 1: real problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we should back up a little bit and

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Speaker 2: give a little bit of the background here. Before the

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighties happened and they moved into the second house

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Speaker 2: on Osage Avenue sixty two twenty one, they lived at

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Speaker 2: a different house in the late seventies, and there was

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Speaker 2: a different mayor in Philadelphia at this time, Mayor Rizzo,

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Speaker 2: who was.

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Speaker 3: A scumbag, tough talking like bag. Yeah he was a scumbag.

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Speaker 3: I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 1: I saw archival footage of the man and he was

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Speaker 1: sure strong man, scumbag.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was one of these guys, you know. And

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Speaker 2: we'll see what happened here was he was not in

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Speaker 2: charge anymore, but it was remnants from that attitude basically

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Speaker 2: that he laid down in the city, which is like.

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Speaker 1: He was in charge in seventy eight though.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I'm talking about the bombing. So in

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Speaker 2: seventy eight there was a standoff with the police. We

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Speaker 2: had talked about the guns earlier. It was later found

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Speaker 2: out that these guns weren't capable of firing. They didn't

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Speaker 2: know that at the time, but at the very least

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Speaker 2: the cops over acted or overreacted at the at the

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Speaker 2: declaration of Mayor Rizzo, and that was shooting. There was

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Speaker 2: an officer that was shot and killed and it was

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Speaker 2: just a really bad scene.

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Speaker 1: So even just a little bit before that too, there

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Speaker 1: was a there was a confrontation between MOVE and the

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia police where one of the MOVE member's babies, like

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Speaker 1: a two month old died.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and the MOVE.

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Speaker 1: Members said the cops did this, Like this baby died

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Speaker 1: from this confrontation with the police, So like that kicks

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Speaker 1: that off. The police eventually raid the the MOVE house

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight and one of the officers get

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Speaker 1: shot and killed in this raid. And so you've got

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Speaker 1: some real bad blood brewing between these two groups.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and during that raid, Delbert Africa, one of the

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Speaker 2: members was and that you can see footage of this.

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Speaker 2: It was all captured on camera, just beaten on the

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Speaker 2: street while laying on the sidewalk.

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Speaker 1: By these cops while he was surrendering.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So to say that there was bad blood is

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Speaker 2: sort of an understatement. Was you had on one side

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Speaker 2: a what you could at least define as a public

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Speaker 2: nuisance in this neighborhood. You had on this other side,

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Speaker 2: this zealous mayor who just wanted to get rid of them, period,

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Speaker 2: not like let's meet, let's talk, let's see if we

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Speaker 2: can all work together. They were one hundred thousand percent

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Speaker 2: at odds with one another.

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Speaker 1: So the police officer that died, the Move side said,

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Speaker 1: we didn't shoot that guy. It was friendly fire that

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Speaker 1: got him, right. The Philadelphia Police Department didn't agree with

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Speaker 1: that story, and so on, like a personal level, like

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Speaker 1: not just an organizational level, but to a cop, the

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Speaker 1: cops hated Move and these people just continued on in

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia and actually stepped up there making themselves a public

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Speaker 1: nuisance because nine of their members were arrested for the

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Speaker 1: murder of that police officer and convicted. Yes, and sent

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Speaker 1: to jail for decades.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thirty two, one hundred years is what they're each

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Speaker 2: sentence for. We'll talk about what happened to them toward

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Speaker 2: the end.

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Speaker 1: So just to kind of just paint this one last

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Speaker 1: stroke on this picture we're painting here, the cops had

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Speaker 1: a vendetta against MOVE because one of their own was

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Speaker 1: killed during the siege. And MOVE had a vendetta against

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Speaker 1: the cops because nine of their people were put in jail,

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Speaker 1: one of them was beaten, and a baby had died

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Speaker 1: on their side.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, let's take a break and we'll come

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Speaker 2: back right for this and talk more about what happened

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty five. All right, So whether or not

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Speaker 2: this was a cult is some people debate that. John

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Speaker 2: Africa is very much on record saying it's an organization.

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Speaker 3: Is that relevant? I don't think so. I don't either.

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Speaker 1: I think it's just an attempt to discredit them.

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Speaker 2: Oh, to call them a cult. Huh yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think it's all we're talking about though.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I'm not like criticizing you or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. I'm just saying, like when people toss it around, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they were a cult. Yeah, there were some like characteristics

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Speaker 1: that you could say, well, it's kind of cult like

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Speaker 1: or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Let's put it this way.

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Speaker 2: If it was on a deserted island, then I think

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Speaker 2: people would have straight up called them a cult. The

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Speaker 2: fact that it was in a neighborhood in West Philadelphia

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Speaker 2: made it seem a lot less, so.

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Speaker 1: I hear you.

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Speaker 2: But if he was like, come here and live on

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Speaker 2: this island with me, then it would have straight up

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Speaker 2: been called a cult.

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Speaker 1: Let me rephrase what I was saying. I don't dispute

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Speaker 1: that they may have been a cult, but again it's that, well,

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Speaker 1: does that mean that they should have had a bomb

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Speaker 1: dropped on them?

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Speaker 3: I don't think anyone thinks that. Okay.

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Speaker 2: So, like I said, there were kids there that were

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Speaker 2: forced to eat raw fish, raw chicken. The adults could

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Speaker 2: cook their meat, which was there was definitely some double

302
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Speaker 2: standards going on there. Their rationale was that our bodies

303
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Speaker 2: are used to this, but we want to raise you

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Speaker 2: pure from the start, so you're only going to eat

305
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Speaker 2: raw foods.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They had a lot of exceptions, not just that, like

308
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Speaker 1: the anti technology thing where they had like a wood

309
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Speaker 1: burning stove for heat and that was it, right, No,

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Speaker 1: they used candles instead of light bulbs, that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: But they also had phones and they drove cars. Right,

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Speaker 1: So there was a lot of weird exceptions in loopholes

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Speaker 1: and holes in general in John Africa's guidelines as he

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Speaker 1: called them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. As for one of the more well the only

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Speaker 2: child that survived this experience, Birdie Africa, Michael Ward, he

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Speaker 2: said in nineteen ninety five, I'm still afraid of them.

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Speaker 2: Of moves, some of the things that went on there,

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Speaker 2: I can't get out of my head.

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Speaker 3: Bad things.

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Speaker 2: I haven't told anyone except for my father, but I'll

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Speaker 2: tell you this. I didn't like being there. They said

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Speaker 2: it was a family, but a family isn't something where

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Speaker 2: you're forced to stay and you don't want to. And

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Speaker 2: his contention was that the kids were always trying to

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Speaker 2: get out of there and run away.

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Speaker 3: They were just too little to know how too little,

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Speaker 3: and you know, naked, they were naked, they were malnourished.

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Speaker 1: They were like the only toys they had they had

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Speaker 1: to hide because they weren't supposed to have them. Because

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Speaker 1: it's technology and human made.

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Speaker 3: It was unsanitary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was, you know, part of part of what

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00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 1: move was into is growing their own food, so they

335
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Speaker 1: would compost like in the alley behind the house or

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Speaker 1: on the roof or something like that. They had they

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Speaker 1: built an animal shelter in the alley. So there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of really uh like not okay conditions to

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Speaker 1: raise kids in let alone, like adults to live in

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Speaker 1: but raising children. It was there were some really bad

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Speaker 1: decisions and choices or bad outcomes from some of John

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Speaker 1: Africa's philosophy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird because it's like at the heart of this,

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Speaker 2: it's this back to nature movement.

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Speaker 3: You know, where I want them to be on a

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Speaker 3: deserted island, So by.

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Speaker 2: Not even a deserted island, like go out into like

348
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Speaker 2: there's there's countryside not too far outside of Philadelphia.

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Speaker 3: Weird. It is.

350
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Speaker 2: It's very strange because on on one hand, I'm like, yeah,

351
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 2: this animal rights group and they're back to nature and

352
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Speaker 2: they're issuing the things of man, but they're doing it

353
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Speaker 2: in the most like aggressive, antagonistic way possible in the

354
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Speaker 2: middle of a city. It's like, I don't I didn't

355
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Speaker 2: know what to think about any of this, except obviously

356
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Speaker 2: you don't go in there and fire bomb the place.

357
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Speaker 2: It's like the one thing I was clear on you

358
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Speaker 2: don't start a war in the middle of a neighborhood, right,

359
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 2: It's true, which is what happened. Basically, the neighbors wanted

360
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Speaker 2: move out, They fire filed a bunch of complaints over

361
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Speaker 2: the years to get them shut down, and the city

362
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,239
Speaker 2: didn't really know what to do at this point. At

363
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Speaker 2: this point there was a different mayor, Mayor Good. So

364
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Speaker 2: this was the first black mayor of Philadelphia.

365
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Speaker 1: Who actually was elected on this reform ticket, basically to

366
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Speaker 1: get rid of Rizzo, get rid of the corruption, the

367
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Speaker 1: racism that Rizzo had had and his administration had fostered

368
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Speaker 1: because he was police chief first and then became mayor

369
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Speaker 1: Rizzo and he basically after that nineteen seventy eight raid,

370
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 1: there's footage of him just basically hopped up and boasting

371
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,440
Speaker 1: about how militarized the Chicago PD was now and how

372
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 1: like they could I think he actually said, we're ready

373
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Speaker 1: for war. Yeah, we could go down to Cuba and

374
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,440
Speaker 1: take them if we wanted to right now, just really

375
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Speaker 1: like boasting about this, not like, oh man, you know

376
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,120
Speaker 1: this was this is a tragedy or whatever, even however

377
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,119
Speaker 1: you want to say it like he was boasting, like

378
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 1: come on, who's next kind of thing. And this was

379
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Speaker 1: the mayor at the time. So Wilson Good comes along

380
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 1: is like not that, We're going to take a different

381
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 1: tact here and try to promote more unity. Then he

382
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 1: was actually pretty successful in a lot of ways in

383
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Speaker 1: that respect as far as the city officials go. I

384
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 1: really kind of like Mayor Good because he took rispe

385
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,720
Speaker 1: resonssibility for it. Yeah, even stuff he didn't do just

386
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 1: because he was the mayor, he put himself in as accountable.

387
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 2: All right, So shall we fast forward? Yes, the stage

388
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,439
Speaker 2: is set. We know what happened in the seventies. We

389
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 2: know the relationship between this neighborhood with this group, this

390
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:20,959
Speaker 2: group with the city and the cops.

391
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Speaker 3: And so.

392
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:29,439
Speaker 2: They decide that they are going to extract every person

393
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,399
Speaker 2: from that house. That was the plan, as we are

394
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 2: going to remove the Move organization from the house on

395
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 2: Osage Avenue. In this article says they didn't have a plan.

396
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 2: That's not true. They had a plan that just was

397
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,199
Speaker 2: not executed well and went really pair shaped really fast,

398
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: and then they didn't have a plan. But the original

399
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 2: plan was to they had built the Move organization that

400
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 2: built this pretty fortified bunker on top of their building.

401
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,160
Speaker 2: As far as homemade bunkers go, not bad, which gave

402
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 2: them a supreme tactical ad. If you know anything about war,

403
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 2: you know, higher ground is always going to win out.

404
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 1: Sure, or if you're not always designed a castle or something,

405
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 1: you know.

406
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 3: Sure castle designers they know, or mongers.

407
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 2: Uh So, the idea was to create a diversion on

408
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 2: the roof, in which time police officers or swat and

409
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: everybody would would go inside and forcibly remove people by

410
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 2: any means necessary in mayor Goods words.

411
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Speaker 1: But the first the first part of that was water

412
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 1: cannons and tear gas, you're right. And they were very

413
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 1: surprised when these water cannons that were just I think

414
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,679
Speaker 1: they shot like a thousand gallons a second or some

415
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 1: crazy amount of water. They ha just left them on, yes,

416
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,160
Speaker 1: two of them, yeah shoot like And they fully expected

417
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: to basically take most of this house down, yeah like

418
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 1: it was a brick row home, but they expected it

419
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 1: to take the non brick parts off, including that that

420
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 1: structure on top, that lookout. And they were very very

421
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 1: surprised when two things didn't happen. When that structureding come down,

422
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: despite the water cans being directed at it for hours

423
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 1: and the people not coming out, despite tear gas being

424
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: shot into the house. Right, And that is like you

425
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,679
Speaker 1: said earlier, when their plan went went to the to

426
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 1: the birds, Yeah, toilet, Sure, went down the toilet, And

427
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 1: they said, well, what do we do now, Like our

428
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: whole plan doesn't work. I've got an idea. Let's start

429
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: shooting at the house instead.

430
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

431
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: So what they didn't know this whole time was that

432
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 2: they were all hiding in a basement garage. So all

433
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 2: of this water raining down on the roof wasn't I don't,

434
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 2: Probably wasn't even getting to them. Probably not, Or maybe

435
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 2: it's it's not like they were up to their necks

436
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 2: and water in the basement and like drowning or anything

437
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 2: like that.

438
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: No, but they later said that the tear gas was everywhere.

439
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 3: Sure, but apparently it wasn't potent enough.

440
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe they just expired stuff and we should step

441
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: back one step, chuck. Before this raid actually started, they

442
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 1: went house to house to the neighbors and said, you guys,

443
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, grab all your clothes.

444
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: It's huge.

445
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: We need you gone for twenty four hours. Yeah, because

446
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 1: We're about to do what you guys have wanted us

447
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: to do for years. Yeah, we're gonna do it, So

448
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: you need to get out here. They towed trucks from

449
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: Osage Avenue.

450
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 2: They towed every carp they had, the gas shut off,

451
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: the electricity shut off.

452
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 3: It was a siege. Yeah.

453
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 2: They basically tried to just vacate the block. Yeah, and

454
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: they did. Yeah, and they did. I mean, I think

455
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: some people stayed when they shouldn't have. But it's like

456
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 2: with any evacuation. They got as many people out of

457
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 2: there as possible. Right, They're like, you'll be back in

458
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: your house tomorrow.

459
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: Okay, So the whole block and like a couple of blocks,

460
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 1: a couple of streets on either side are cleared. Yeah,

461
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 1: the water's been used, it's not working. The tear gas

462
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: is not working. So supposedly the first shots came from

463
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: the house, right, but every bud all witnesses, cops, firefighters,

464
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: newspeople say that the first shots were automatic fire. It's

465
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: been conclusively proven that no one in the move house

466
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: had an automatic weapon. So if the first shots were automatic,

467
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: then that means the cops fired first, and that's what

468
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 1: people seem to believe. Is that the cops started this.

469
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of this documentary it's really compelling

470
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 2: because it's footage from the commission afterward, and you get

471
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 2: like the real deal testimony, first person testimony from all

472
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 2: the major players, including the police chief what.

473
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: Was his name, Gregory Sambor?

474
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Sambor?

475
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: Who was He identified it as automatic, like his sworn

476
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 2: testimony said it was automatic weapons, and they're like, well,

477
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 2: how do you know? And he was like, I know

478
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 2: what an automatic weapon sounds like, right, And.

479
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: They're like, well, what move didn't have automatic weapons?

480
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 3: You're like, oh, I don't know about that. Yeah.

481
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 2: He's like, I don't know how to explain that then,

482
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: But they fired first, right, He just kind of stuck

483
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: to his guns, right every single time.

484
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a piece of work himself. He was

485
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: definitely in the cut from the same cloth as Mary Rizzo.

486
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 3: I think. So.

487
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they decided to start shooting at this point

488
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: because regardless of who shot first, it becomes like Vietnam

489
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: on the city block all of a sudden, and it's

490
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: not like, I mean, they cleared it out. But when

491
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 2: you see this news footage, I mean there's people everywhere

492
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 2: sure watching their news cameras and anchors everywhere on the

493
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 2: streets like, oh, like, we should get behind the car

494
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: now because it's raining bullets everywhere. Yeah, it's just freaky

495
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: to see this happening in like a city block in

496
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 2: the United States.

497
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, the cop eighties. The cops later on estimated that

498
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: they fired about ten thousand rounds.

499
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 3: They ran out of bullets. Yeah, they had to bring

500
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: in more because they.

501
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 2: Ran Yeah that this car pulls up there like a car,

502
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 2: a police car has just rushed into the scene, and

503
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: it's like from a movie.

504
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 3: The trunk pops and it's just full of bullets.

505
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: Yeap, just for because they ran out of bullets. Yeah,

506
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: So they kept shooting at this house. And here's thing, like,

507
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: bear in mind, they're shooting ten thousand rounds of ammunition

508
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: at a house. It was occupied by three thirteen people,

509
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: seven of which are children. Everyone knows. Oh yeah, everyone

510
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: knows that there were seven children in that house.

511
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not like the cops were unaware.

512
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: No, everyone knew that there were children in this house. Yeah,

513
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: it was part of it. It was part of the

514
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: concern of the neighbors that there were children being raised

515
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: in this house, and the cops acted on the information

516
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: from confidential informants who fully informed them that there were

517
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: children in this house. So that's step one. They fired

518
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 1: ten thousand rounds at a house where they knew that

519
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: there were seven children.

520
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: All right, so nothing is changing, though they're still not

521
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: bringing people out of this house.

522
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: I'll bet they were like, I can't believe this, and

523
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: the structure was still intact on top.

524
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 3: I'm surprised they didn't think they were dead. Yeah.

525
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 2: I would have thought at some point they would have

526
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: been like, well, I'm sure we probably killed everyone.

527
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's just go in there.

528
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I wonder, Yeah, I wonder, because if they

529
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: were all crowd crowded down in the basement garage, they

530
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: couldn't have been firing back after a certain point in time.

531
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not sure.

532
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 2: I mean, they said part of the problem was the

533
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: tear gas, so they couldn't send cops in there because

534
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 2: it was flooded with tear gas. And then I think

535
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: they said the well, no, that said this comes later

536
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 2: the steam, So put a pin in the steam. So

537
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: at some point someone on the bomb squad apparently says

538
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: to the police chief or it gets to the police chief,

539
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 2: hey he was really, you know, the chief was really

540
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 2: worried about that bunker and that tactical advantage. So someone

541
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: from the bomb squad said, why don't we drop a

542
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: bomb on the roof and get rid of that bunker.

543
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: An officer named William Klein suggested, and they said it, okay,

544
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 3: let's do that.

545
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: Good idea. Kline.

546
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 2: What do we need, think, a helicopter and a bomb. Yeah,

547
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: they're like, well we've got both.

548
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: So even as late as that inquiry that they held,

549
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: they characterized it as a Tovax bomb, And Tovax is

550
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: a water based gily and this explosive that is used

551
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: I think in mining and demolition and stuff like that.

552
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 3: But it can be purchased. Yes. Yeah.

553
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: It later came out that in addition to the Tovax,

554
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 1: the bomb disposal guy made a bomb with C four

555
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: plastique explosives, which is not commercially available, which means that

556
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: we'll see later the Philadelphia Police Department should not have

557
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: had this stuff.

558
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we should just go ahead and say

559
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 3: how they got it? Why not?

560
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: Well, I was trying to save it for with a

561
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: little flair for the dramatic, but you go ahead.

562
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: Well, the FBI gave it to him secretly.

563
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, the FBI had been giving little bits of C

564
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: four here and there to police departments apparently, like the

565
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: blow doors off of stuff.

566
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: To train bomb sniffing dogs.

567
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, teach him how to use it.

568
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: But then the FBI used that excuse for a little while,

569
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: then later came out and said no, we actually like

570
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: brought them a bunch of C four.

571
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: Like thirty blocks of C four in January, a few

572
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: months before this raid, the siege, but still during the

573
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: time when the like move people were being negotiated with

574
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: to leave on their own.

575
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, because that was happening this whole time.

576
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 2: They would have community leaders on the bullhorn trying to

577
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: talk them into coming out. They did not have a

578
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: professional negotiator on the scene, which.

579
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: That's a huge yeah, red flag.

580
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah that they never meant for anyone to come out.

581
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, but at any rate, they drop a bomb a

582
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 2: I think it was a they said, a four pound

583
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: bomb from a satchel with a forty five second fuse.

584
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: This is all on camera, like you literally in this

585
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: documentary see the helicopter fly over drop this satchel out

586
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, fly I love that you did a

587
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: running motion yeah, you know, in helicopter's run and they

588
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: flew out of there and kaboom, and West Philadelphia, a

589
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: bomb explodes on top of a building and a smallish

590
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: fire starts.

591
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 3: This is it? What time that was there? Like five

592
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 3: that they dropped the bomb? Five to ten? I think,

593
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 3: all right?

594
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: And the smallish fire took a couple of minutes for

595
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: it to become a parent that it had caught fire.

596
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: But supposedly there was gasoline in the what.

597
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 3: Are we calling that thing the bunker? The bunker.

598
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's supposedly gasoline in the bunker. But I really

599
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: like the police dropped the bomb on a building that

600
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: they knew that people were in, seven of which were children, Okay,

601
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: And supposedly the reason that they did this was to

602
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: get rid of that bunker. Like that bunker. The police

603
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: chief did not like that bunker standing still and wanted

604
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: to get rid of it. The bomb didn't do anything

605
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: to the bunker. That was a strong bunker.

606
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: It was the time, LI is important. So at five

607
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: twenty seven is when they dropped the bomb. At five

608
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: point forty five, someone asked the fire department if they

609
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: should turn on the you know, they've been delusing this

610
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: thing with water all day long until there's a fire,

611
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: and then they turn it off, which was you know,

612
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: it's not ironic because it was very purposeful, but it

613
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: definitely stings more. Yeah, So they said not to turn

614
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: them on by six o'clock. So this is thirty three

615
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: minutes later. Mayor Good is watching this on TV in

616
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: his office. He phones it in and says, you know,

617
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: let's put this fire out now.

618
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: He ordered the fire to be put out.

619
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, thirty three minutes later, And this is where it

620
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: gets a little hinky because this was given to police

621
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: Chief Sambor, and under testimony, Sambor says that he relayed

622
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: that to the fire chief.

623
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: He said, he said that the fire chief was there.

624
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: He did not say he related to this.

625
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: Well.

626
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he got very dodgy with how he

627
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: worded it. But the fire chief, basically, on testimony, that's

628
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: what he said, and he's like, I categorically denied that

629
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: I ever got an order to start those water cannons

630
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: or that.

631
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: He was even aware that Good made that call a

632
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: phone call or called the order. So basically, the fire

633
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: chief said the buck stopped with Sambor, and Sambor the

634
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: police chief decided to let that fire burn.

635
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: That's right, because he thought, not defending him, but he

636
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: thought the fire would then take down the bunker and

637
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: remove that advantage. Other people contend, and they ask him

638
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: in the deposition or in the hearing, no, you've kind

639
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: of really wanted to use the fire as a weapon.

640
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: He got real salty about that, he did. He said,

641
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: a fire can't be a weapon. Basically, he said no,

642
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: I said, what about flame throwers?

643
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: He goes, I hadn't thought about flamethrowers.

644
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: But still, all right, so this is six point thirty

645
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: flames are it is clearly out of hand.

646
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 3: They waited way too long.

647
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: That was the thing that got me was it was

648
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: obvious from what Sambor was saying, if the documentary is accurate,

649
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: from what Sambor was saying, that when he was saying, no,

650
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: we need to let the bunker burn, still by this time,

651
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: the entire top floor was a conflagration.

652
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, it's on the news, so that whole.

653
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: Thing doesn't hold water at all, and it would lend

654
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: support to the idea that he was using it as

655
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: a weapon to burn the people out.

656
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 3: I'm sure he was.

657
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: I'm sure he thought to your guests, didn't work maybe

658
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: this fire will work, okay and drive these people out

659
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: of there.

660
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, should we take a break or should

661
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 3: we wait, Let's take a break. Okay, we'll take a

662
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 3: break and we'll tell you what happens next.

663
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: Okay, chuck. So for a little bit, the fire department

664
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: sprays some of the houses next to the move house,

665
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: but doesn't put the fire out or spray the fire

666
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: on the move house. So in the abandoned houses, they're

667
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: spraying down to try to contain the fire in the house.

668
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: The one house in this whole square block area where

669
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: they know people are, including seven children, they didn't spray.

670
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: Later on, they will defend this by saying, well, in

671
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: that nineteen seventy eight siege, move fired on the firefighters

672
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: and apparently shot and injured several firefighters, so that we

673
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: were worried for the firefighters to be picked off fighting

674
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: this fire in this siege as well. Ramona Africa, who

675
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: would be the one adult from move to s the siege,

676
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: would say, well, like you said earlier, they had these

677
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: they weren't scared to hit us with these water cannons.

678
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: The whole time there wasn't a fire, right, But then

679
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: there is a fire and now they're scared, we're going

680
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: to pick them off. That doesn't make any sense. It's

681
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 1: just be yes.

682
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

683
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: And also I'm glad you brought that up because it

684
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 2: said to put a pin in the steam. This is

685
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 2: when the steam happened, because they're blowing water on this

686
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: fire now and it's creating all the steam that they

687
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,959
Speaker 2: said didn't allow anyone to move in as well, okay,

688
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: because they couldn't see anything.

689
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 3: It was no visibility.

690
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: Okay. So despite spraying down the houses around this fire, Yeah,

691
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: it got out of hand really fast, and it spread

692
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: very fast, and it moved very quickly, not just from

693
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: the move house, but onto the neighboring houses and then beyond.

694
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: And even these are fairly narrow streets that this neighborhood

695
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: was built on, and it jumped the street fairly quickly.

696
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

697
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 2: It wasn't contained or deemed under control until eleven forty

698
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 2: one PM.

699
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: So it's like more than six hours after it started.

700
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, this whole city block it just burning to the ground.

701
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: It ended up being like a six alarm fire, which

702
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 1: depending on the city, is one hundred and twenty firefighters, chiefs,

703
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: ladder trucks. It's a big old fire.

704
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you mentioned the nineteen seventy eight siege where

705
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: the officer was shot and killed and where the beating

706
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 2: of Delbert Africa went down. Important to remember that because

707
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: two of the officers that were involved in the beat

708
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: down of Delbert Africa were also on the scene today.

709
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: And they make a big point in this commission, like,

710
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 2: did you think about sending these guys in? There might

711
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: not be a good idea and they may have revenge

712
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: on their minds. And I can't remember what the answer was.

713
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: He's kind of like.

714
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 1: He said, no, I didn't think of that, yeah, or yes,

715
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 1: I did, whatever it was. He was not like, yeah,

716
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: that was not a good idea, right, He stood by

717
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: whatever it was.

718
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 3: Right.

719
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 2: So this kind of sets up another story in tandem

720
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 2: that's going on right now, which is at a certain

721
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: point during this massive fire about seven, Yeah, they try

722
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 2: to get out from the basement.

723
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: The move people tried to get out. They tried to.

724
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: Escape, that's right, They tried to get out the back door.

725
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,479
Speaker 2: There's this At this point, the cops had moved into

726
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: the alleyway.

727
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 3: There was no camera access.

728
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 2: He couldn't see what happened, but from the testimony that

729
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: can't even hardly get through the testimony of that kid.

730
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: You know, they deposed him. He wasn't in front of

731
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: the Commissionertty Africa. Yeah, but Bertie Africa was like, what

732
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: do he look like ten or eleven years old when

733
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: they deposed him?

734
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he was actually like thirteen, was he?

735
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 2: But this kid is retelling the story seems incredibly credible

736
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 2: and believable to me, right, Like, I fully believe that

737
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: he was telling the truth.

738
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: Over the two cops who are supposed who may or

739
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: may not who may have actually fired on the people

740
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: trying to escape the house, right of the two. It's

741
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: way easier to believe that kid's testimony than these guys, right,

742
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 1: who were the ones who beat Delbert Africa in nineteen

743
00:37:58,360 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 1: seventy eight.

744
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's what happened. They tried to leave.

745
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: There was a kid named rad Africa that was I

746
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 2: think like thirteen or fourteen, and he was carrying out

747
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: a baby and he was one of the first ones

748
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: out and he goes back into the house and there's

749
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: that part of the documentary where the priest is talking

750
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: to the officers and he's like, because officers were saying

751
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: all we were saying was come out with.

752
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 3: Your hands up.

753
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: Right.

754
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: We didn't fire on anything. We didn't fire. We had

755
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 2: them out with your hands up. And this priest is like,

756
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of what would make a kid

757
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 2: holding a baby go back into a building engulfed in flames.

758
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: And the cops are like, well, I don't.

759
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, you can't really put yourself in a move

760
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: person's feet, right, you can't really identify with them, And

761
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: that minister or whatever said, actually I was friends with

762
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 1: a lot of these people.

763
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 3: They knew them on a human level. Right.

764
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,399
Speaker 1: The other thing that really kind of damns the two

765
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: cops who beat Delbert Africa's testimony is that there was

766
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: reports from a lot of witnesses, including like fire department

767
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: people from of gunfire in this alley around this time.

768
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: So the whole thing kind of adds up if you

769
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: take those testimon that the reports of witnesses that there

770
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: was gunfire in the back alley, with Birdie Africa and

771
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: Ramona Africa's testimony that around that same time people had

772
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: tried to escape, and then the testimony of the cops

773
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: themselves that the people had run back in the house,

774
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: it sounds a lot, like a reasonable person would conclude

775
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: that the cops who had beaten Delbert Africa in nineteen

776
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: seventy eight shot at the people from move in nineteen

777
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: eighty five who tried to escape the fire and force

778
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: them back into the burning house. Right, that's certainly what

779
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: it sounds like.

780
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 2: They the cops said that the kid had or you

781
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 2: said he was a man, he was a kid, had

782
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: a rifle that he pointed at them. And I know

783
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: what a rifle looks like, because the kid who survived

784
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 2: Bertie said he had a monkey wrench in his hand

785
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: that he used to get the window open. And he

786
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 2: came out with a monkey wrench in that baby. And

787
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 2: the cop was like, until there's between a rifle and

788
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: a monkey wrench.

789
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

790
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: And if you're sitting here like, hey, you lay off

791
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: the cops, just watch this documentary and then listen to

792
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 1: this part over again, because it's really it's a really

793
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: great documentary. It does a really good job of like

794
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: laying everything out. But the part of the I guess

795
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: the goodness of this documentary is that it's all archival

796
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: and it lets the people speak for themselves.

797
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's just you basically kind of watch what

798
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: happened and listen to what people said about it, right,

799
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 2: you know, including the people and I mean in charge.

800
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: And it's obviously I mean it's edited. It's not just

801
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: like here's this inquiry, here's my documentary. But I mean

802
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: it lets it pay out enough that you get a

803
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 1: really good clear picture of what happened in the testimony

804
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: that followed.

805
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: So, I mean, that's kind of the end of that

806
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: story as it has happened. That you know, these Ramona

807
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: and Bertie were the only two to make it out

808
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: of that house alive.

809
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: And that hero I mentioned earlier, cop Man, I wish

810
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: I could remember his name.

811
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: I got his name.

812
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: He he could not stop himself from running to Bertie

813
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: to help him.

814
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, James Officer, James Berghier.

815
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: So bergheire ran to them. Despite some of his colleagues saying,

816
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: don't I think it's a trap. You're gonna get killed?

817
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: He said, I can't. I can't, Like I see this

818
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 1: kid right there, and I'm going to go rescue him.

819
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 3: He thought of his kids, he said he did, and

820
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 3: he was.

821
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: They even say like in the inquiry, like if there's

822
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: if there's any like silver silver lining or shining moment

823
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 1: to this whole horrible thing. It's what you did. And

824
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: he got kind of rousted out of the police department

825
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:52,919
Speaker 1: within a year or two.

826
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, his his own police brethren turned on him.

827
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 2: They wrote racial epithets on his locker because he saved

828
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: this kid was diagnosed with PTSD and left the forest

829
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: two years later. And there's a great article I found

830
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: that I read the first third of right before we

831
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: had to record that of him, an interviewed with him.

832
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: I guess like five or six years Agoah that I

833
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: can't wait to go read and finish up.

834
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 3: So let's finish up. Okay.

835
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: So, so Bertie and Ramona were the only two move

836
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 1: members who survived. The other eleven died, including six children. Yeah,

837
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: in this house that was set on fire, and the

838
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 1: fire was set off by a bomb that the Philadelphia

839
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: Police Department dropped on the house. So obviously Philadelphie's gonna

840
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: cough up some money for this.

841
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were settlements. The parents of the dead children

842
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: settled for twenty five million dollars total. Michael Ward young Bertie,

843
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 2: he became Michael Ward. He changed his name. He got

844
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: one point seven million dollars Ramona Africa got half a

845
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 2: million dollars and the families of John Africa and his

846
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 2: nephew they couldn't reach a settlement, so they were awarded

847
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: one million by a jury. And then here's the kicker.

848
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: Police Chief Sambor and fire Chief Richmond were forced to

849
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: pay a dollar a week for eleven years to Ramona Africa.

850
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: To keep in mind, yeah, five.

851
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 3: Hundred and seventy two dollars.

852
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: Which is a but it's a civil I mean, that's

853
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: a civil punishment basically saying we think you're like, you

854
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: might not be criminally responsible, but in this civil suit

855
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: we are saying it's basically like.

856
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 3: How the symbolic payment or whatever.

857
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like how the court, the civil court ruled

858
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: against oj even though he had been found not guilty

859
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: of murder in the criminal the civil court still said, no,

860
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: you're responsible. We believe so we're going to get you

861
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: in this way. They did the same thing. And this

862
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: was despite the fact that Ramona Africa did seven years.

863
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: Like they didn't say, hey, we're really sorry we burned

864
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: this house. She would here's some money. They said, hey,

865
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 1: you're under arrest for inciting riots and conspiracy of something

866
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: or other and she did seven years. She didn't get

867
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: out early because the parole board said you have to

868
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: denounce MOVE and she refused to denounce MOVE, and she

869
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: did her full seven years, although now she is not

870
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: affiliated with MOVE any longer.

871
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: As far as I know, Yeah, as far as the

872
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: original MOVE nine, who are the ones in prison for

873
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 2: the killing of the police officer? Two of them died

874
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: in prison. I think two are still in prison. The rest,

875
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: including just in February. February twelfth, Eddie Africa was paroled.

876
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: Delbert and Chuck Africa are still behind bars. I think

877
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: are the only two still behind bars. And as far

878
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: as Michael Ward aka Young Birdie Africa, he very sadly

879
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 2: died in twenty thirteen in a hot tub cruise ship

880
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: drowning due to.

881
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: Intoxication. Yeah.

882
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: The Brevard County, Florida Medical Examiner ruled it an accidental

883
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: death from drowning in the hot tub from just being drunk.

884
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: I guess what a weird way to go after all

885
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: that weird life.

886
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird because during the deposition he was there

887
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 2: with his father and I'm like, where was his dad?

888
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 1: His dad was looking for him?

889
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 3: Well, his dad was.

890
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 2: Out of the country in the military while he was

891
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 2: living in Philadelphia.

892
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: Right, but he had moved to suburban Philadelphia. Yeah, his

893
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: dad did and had been looking for Michael and had

894
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: no idea he was, you know, thirty minutes away in Philly.

895
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

896
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 2: So he lived the rest of his life with his dad,

897
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: and that's who he referenced earlier when he was like,

898
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 2: you know, the stuff that went on there, I'll only

899
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: tell my father, Right, super super tragic, And it's one

900
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 2: of these things I think like we should do a

901
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 2: little triumvirate of this in Ruby Ridge and Waco.

902
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 3: Maybe I agreed, like three times where.

903
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: There was a potentially problematic organization in the United States,

904
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: government just decided to fire bombit.

905
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

906
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: These are so sticky because you want to be like, oh,

907
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: these people are the victims, and you know, the government

908
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: really was a villain in this one. But you're like,

909
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: it's never that complex, and these stories really teach.

910
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 3: You that that that's always that things.

911
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: They are much more textured, yeah than that, they're much

912
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: more nuanced than that black and white. But even still,

913
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: you still don't drop You don't drop a bomb and

914
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: burn eleven people to death.

915
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, the city as far as that block went, they

916
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 2: paid eleven million dollars, which was by all accounts a

917
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: very inside deal with some developer who put up a

918
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: bunch of houses that were condemned in two thousand due

919
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: to shoddy construction. So somebody got rich again trying to

920
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 2: build these things. Did a terrible job. Twenty four families stayed.

921
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 2: They offered repairs and buyouts, and apparently most people took

922
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: the buyouts.

923
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: Right.

924
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 2: And if you do like the little Google Earth to

925
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 2: sixty two twenty one osage, it's uh still row houses

926
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: and on either side of that it looks like people

927
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 2: might be living there, right, but that building has like

928
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 2: you know, plywood up in the windows.

929
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, because I heard like starting in about

930
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen they brought in a good developer and started

931
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: to redevelop it and then's starting to come back.

932
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that one address, though, is u is

933
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: boarded up, So I don't know if like no one

934
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: wants to live there.

935
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: Or it could be an older Google image. Yeah those

936
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 3: are usually newer, right, I wonder well.

937
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: I mean it could be older than twenty fifteen.

938
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: Although I looked at my house the other day and

939
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 2: it was it was the old house.

940
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:44,280
Speaker 1: The old house.

941
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was kind of like, oh, that's cute. It

942
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:47,479
Speaker 3: looks crettier than I thought.

943
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: Oh, you got a good house. I gotta see your

944
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: new version. Yeah, you should a fancy version. I'm just

945
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: waiting for an invite come on over.

946
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 3: Oh thanks, I can't uh.

947
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about the move bombing,

948
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: please please, we both beseech you go watch Let the

949
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: Fire Burn on Amazon Prime, on the internet, wherever you

950
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: can see it.

951
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 3: Just see it. It's really really good. Yeah.

952
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 2: And we should point out too that no one involved

953
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 2: on the on the cops, in the political side suffered

954
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 2: any punishments.

955
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: No, there was that inquiry, and no one was found

956
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: guilty of any wrongdoing except although this will put a

957
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: really good button on this multi racial panel inquiry panel

958
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: that held these hearings to a person with one dissenter,

959
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: said that we conclude had this not been a black

960
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: working class neighborhood, right, instead a white working class neighborhood,

961
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: the police never would have dropped that bomb.

962
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 3: Of course they wouldn't have.

963
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, it's time for listening to me.

964
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 3: Who is the loan dissenter?

965
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: I didn't see he's gotta be the guy with the glasses.

966
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 3: It's always that guy.

967
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 2: What am I going to call this perfect pitch follow up?

968
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: Hey guys, Back in two thousand and nine, my band

969
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 2: was recording an album and those one song that ends

970
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 2: with us all singing and holding out a single note.

971
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: The next song starts with us singing that same note.

972
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: Oh that's cool.

973
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: See what they did adding drums. Then the songs are

974
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: edited together to have them flow into each other.

975
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 3: With no gap. Josh t is very interesting because he's

976
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 3: a musician. Jerry just be like, what meeting me? So?

977
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: Huh? What'd you guys say?

978
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 2: We had finished recording that first one, and I can

979
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 2: tell by the look on Josh's face he's like that

980
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 2: old trick packed our instruments away. Then we're about to

981
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 2: start the next one. We realized we need to hear

982
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 2: the first note so we could sing in the right

983
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 2: pitch instead of loading up the previous song. Our pianist said,

984
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 2: I have perfect pitch and belt it out the note,

985
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: which we all who don't have perfect pitch, trusted him

986
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: to be right and started recording from there. A little

987
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 2: did we know he doesn't have perfect pitch, but it's close.

988
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: When we edited the songs together and played them through

989
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 2: the notes. We're supposed to match her off by about

990
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: a half step. Now it sounds like a Jerry, very dissonant,

991
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: totally wrong.

992
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: Oh, I just realized Jerry's going to hear this one.

993
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 3: She edits this episode. That's right. Just put a Wilhelm

994
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 3: scream in there, Jerry. We'll be all right.

995
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 2: We are already out of the studio at that point,

996
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 2: so we ended up just releasing it and claiming the

997
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: dissonance was intentional.

998
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 3: But we never let them off.

999
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: The hook and with the old oh yeah, you got

1000
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: perfect pitch, do you? Thanks so much for all the

1001
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: hard work guys. I've learned so much, been endlessly entertained

1002
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 2: for years. Signed, spanked and sent. That is from Kenny.

1003
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: Thank you Kenny. We appreciate that. That was a pretty

1004
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 1: great email. I mean literally lol.

1005
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 3: I can only assume it's Kenny Rodgers.

1006
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: I also want to say this, we give Jerry a

1007
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: hard time round here. It's stuff you should know, only

1008
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: she's not here. Imagine Actually that's not true. We do well,

1009
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: she's sitting right there too. I can't imagine stuff you

1010
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: should know without her. Yeah, we love our Jerry and

1011
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: she is perfect exactly the.

1012
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 3: Way she is. Called that a nice all right.

1013
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: Well, if you want to get in touch with us,

1014
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: you can go on to stuff youshould Know dot com

1015
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 1: and check out our social links, and you can also

1016
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: send us an email to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

1017
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

1018
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1019
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.