WEBVTT - From the Vault: Invertebrate Emotions, Part 2 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.640 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:10.800 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:13.040 Time to go into the vault for a classic episode 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:17.600 of the show. This one originally aired March seventeen, and 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:21.360 it's the second of our two part series about invertebrate emotions. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:23.640 So we hope you enjoy and maybe fall in love 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:29.680 with the slug Welcome to s About to Blow your 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:39.280 Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:41.559 to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:43.600 I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two of 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.519 our exploration of invertebrate emotions. In the last episode, we 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:49.760 talked about the paper Nautilus or the argonaut. We read 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:53.320 that great Marion more poem. We talked about what emotions 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:57.080 are the difficulties and studying them, and we talked about 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:01.360 anecdotes about people really seeing personnel, pity, character, and emotion 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.800 in octopuses, but then also scientific studies looking for certain 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:10.600 types of measurable cognitive effects of emotions or emotion like 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.920 states in invertebrates like bees. We talked about the judgment 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.679 bias test and how bees might have biases that come 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.440 about in optimistic or pessimistic ways based on how they're 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.199 quote feeling. Yeah, A big part of the conversation last 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.360 episode was I think, ultimately about stripping down emotion to 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:33.679 something that doesn't depend upon the subjective human experience, and 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.280 in doing so something that I don't want to make 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.360 it sound like we're, oh, we're just we're cutting out 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:40.840 all the important stuff. I think a lot of what 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.800 we're cutting out is the poetic stuff, the the the 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.440 the extra like self contemplation stuff, and getting down to 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.520 the root of what is an emotional state, how does 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:54.760 it affect um our behavior and our expectations, and then 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.640 you know, how do we see that echoed in other organisms? Right? Well, 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.400 we're cutting out yeah this by cutting out the subjective element, 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.600 We're cutting out the part that would be impossible to 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.320 study in other animals and just trying to say what 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:09.520 our emotional states as manifested externally. Yeah, But of course 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:11.959 the difficulty, as we discussed, is by taking out the 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.400 subjective aspect of it, we're taking out the part that 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.240 is closest to us and the thing that you instantly 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.320 think about when we even say the word emotion of course, 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:25.800 sweet emotion. Oh no, that song fills me with bad emotion, 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:28.000 did you. Oh, I don't know if I ever gotten 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.640 to do this rant before. Y'all know I hate Aerosmith. 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:32.600 Oh no, I don't know. Well, I think you may 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.080 have mentioned it once in passing. Yeah, even even the 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.160 early stuff. I don't know. I mean, I can be 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.040 that classic rock radio uncle, like you know when led 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.560 Zeppelin comes on, I'm like, yeah, I feel it, but 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.880 I don't know that something about Aerosmith just turns my 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:50.280 head three sixty degrees. Well, I have to admitted really 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.040 like a dream on. That's that's if I hear that 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.880 one on classic rock radio, I'll tune in and listen. Well, 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:59.160 I'm glad you like it. Hey, folks, this is Joe 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.040 from the Few. You're swooping in to alter the past. 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:04.720 Sorry about the audio, but I realized on listening back 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:08.400 to this episode that in our excitement about the topic, 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.839 we forgot to reintroduce the paper that we were talking 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.120 about in the first episode, and then we're gonna be 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.640 talking about throughout this one as well. So that paper 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.919 was by Clint J. Perry and Luigi Bachi at Donna 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.960 and it's called studying emotion and invertebrates. What has been done, 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.280 what can be measured, and what they can provide. It 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:30.560 was published in the Journal of Experimental Biology in Okay, 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:36.400 now back to our original conversation. Okay, But so the 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.720 last time we talked about one of the main three 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.000 branches of external ways of studying emotions and animals. We 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.640 talked about you know that they're they're perhaps cognitive effects 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.360 of emotions, that emotions affect how you perceive the world 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.280 and how you think. That there are behavioral tests of emotions, 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.840 that emotions affect how you act, and that there are 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:59.960 physiological tests of emotions that emotions affect involuntary physical reaction 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:02.840 in the body. And we last time we looked at cognition. 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:04.920 This time we're gonna look at the other two. So 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:10.200 the first would be behavioral tests behavioral signs of emotional states. 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.200 And one of the things that I think we should 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.119 first acknowledge is that I'd say, this is the primary 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.200 way that we sense emotions in other people. What do 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.800 people usually do with their bodies, especially their faces, when 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:26.240 they're feeling various emotions. But as the authors point out 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:31.040 quite helpfully, they say, quote invertebrates lack the facial musculature 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.440 for any real type of comparisons to be made in 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.279 this regard, so I think that the jury is in. 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.279 You can't tell if a hornet is smiling. You can't 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.240 tell if there is disgusted on the face of that crab. Yeah, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:47.719 I mean, as if a crab had a face anyway. Right, Um, 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.039 but my flogging that horse again, it's not really a 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.720 horse I flog. But no, no, no no, Actually, you're right. 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:56.560 I think i'd agree the crab. I don't know crabs 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.320 pushing it. I don't know if a crab has a face. Yeah, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.279 I mean, it definitely has the front of a head, 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.440 But that front of a head with the crab is 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.520 not really it's not used for communication. Crabs depend on 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.359 sound as well as you know. The claw waving and 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:15.599 overall movement displays general body language, but predominantly sound is 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.920 their their form of communication. The wasp for their part, uh, 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.520 they depend primarily on smell for communication. We will get 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.160 into that a little bit in the last episode with 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:27.520 the bees. So their communication since realm is not really 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:31.520 our own. Um, they exist in a in a different 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.039 realm in that regard, right, But the behavioral effects of 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:39.040 underlying emotional states are not limited to facial expressions alone, 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.520 just because that's maybe the main way we see emotions 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.880 in other people. Uh, the author's right quote. A substantial 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.400 amount of work in mammals has utilized other bodily expressions 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.039 and motor behavior in response to stimuli to assess both 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:56.400 valence meaning the pleasantness, and intensity meaning the level of 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:00.080 arousal of emotions. And I really think the horse is 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:01.800 a great example of this for a couple of reasons. 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.960 First of all, the horse is an animal that is, 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.599 that lives in close proximity to humans, that is adored 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.240 by humans. That is, that is often you know, championed 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.919 as being this next to the dog and you know 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:15.760 the cat, I guess it is. It is a friend 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.600 of humanity. And uh. And my wife being super into 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.480 horses and pretty knowledgeable about them, she's just told me 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.360 about some of this before, but I was I also 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.520 looked up a source on this for this episode How 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.600 to Read Your Horses Body Language by Jennifer Williams, PhD 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:35.360 for ACQUSS Magazine, and Williams points out that if a 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.520 novice were to view a skilled horse trainer in action, 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.080 they might well guess that this individual is psychic or 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.599 has some sort of mystical Cormac McCarthy in connection to 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.160 the soul of the horse, you know, the deep, dark, 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.960 mystical soil soul of the horse. But it's really all 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:55.000 about knowing how to read these other signs, the overall 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:57.760 body language of the horse and then these other sort 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.480 of non facial or semi facial cues. Well, yeah, I mean, 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:03.720 I think if you're a dog person, if you've got 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.279 a dog in your house, think about like, how finally 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.280 a tune you are to your dogs feelings, levels of excitement, 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.640 motivations and and quote emotional states or you know, there's 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:18.000 something that is analogous to these emotional states. Uh that 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.040 if somebody who had never met a dog before or 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.520 hadn't spent much time around dogs saw you interacting with 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.400 your dog, they might well think the same thing. You 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.080 must be psychic. Yeah, but no, A lot of it 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.240 is about picking up on all of this language, or 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:32.440 indeed just knowing what to look for. So in the 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.640 case of the horse, for instance, Um, your position is 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:37.680 very important. Is one of the apparently the first things 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.960 you tend to learn about about understanding a horse's emotional state, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.200 so that the ears may face forward, meaning they're interested. 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:47.440 They may be pinned back, meaning they're angry and they're 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:51.520 prone to bite or act you know, aggressively slash defensively. Uh. 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:54.040 They might be turned out to the side, meaning they're relaxed. 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.760 They might be turned back but not pinned, and this 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.560 means they're listening to something behind them, and it also 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:01.920 means they might decide they need to turn around to 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.600 go look at it, and horses, being large animals, it's 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:06.800 something to be aware of. Uh. And then they also 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:11.240 might be rapidly swiveling, meaning that they're anxious or at 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.760 their you know, at a high level of alertness. But 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:16.400 then on top of that there's also head carriage head 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.440 maybe lowered elevated snaking. You have to consider four leg 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.720 and hind leg movement and position, muzzle activity, which this 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:26.440 some of this gets more in line with what you 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:28.360 might expect from a face, you know, like what are 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:31.160 the nostrils doing? Uh, you know, what what's the mouth doing, 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.400 what are they doing with their teeth? That sort of thing. 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:35.439 There is a certain level of like what are their 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.960 eyes doing? Uh? You know, to someone that doesn't really 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:40.959 know anything about horses, it's easy to sort of think 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.400 of the eyes as being sort of like big empty 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:45.839 glasses without a lot of emotion. But there is stuff 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.120 you can read into it. There's the movement of the tail, 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.160 and then there's just general whole body stuff like what 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:55.240 is the overall bodily tension of the animal, how is it, 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.240 how is it moving and uh, And you can really 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.760 take all of that and read into the emotional state 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.800 of the horse. But if you just look at you know, 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:06.760 what you might be tempted to call the face of 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:08.839 the horse, you're not necessarily going to pick up on 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:10.839 on all those cues you have. And I think part 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:12.480 of this two gets we have to think about the 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:16.920 human situation. So clearly humans have body language. You know, 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.080 there's more than just the facial communication array with human 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.640 beings totally, but we do depend on the facial communication 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.000 array a lot, and we do fixate on it to 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.960 a very large degree. But basically, what I'm trying to say, 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.319 using the horses in an example, that there are there 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:36.120 are there are various parts of an organism that you 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.599 can look to to to figure out what their emotional 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:42.480 state is, and it may or may not be something 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.480 that matches up with the human idea, the idea of 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:49.040 a face. Yes, so what would be some of these 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:53.319 external behaviors that we could measure in invertebrates. One of 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:57.040 the most obvious behavioral signs of underlying emotional states and 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:01.080 animals is retreat behaviors. So but you know, like in 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:06.199 fear or anxiety, animals will retreat, retracting or covering vulnerable 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:10.480 body parts, adopting defensive posture, and running away. These are 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.800 some of the clearest ones to look for in all 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.040 of animal behavior. And so the first example cited by 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.800 the authors here looks at exactly that. And it's actually 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.120 a study we've already mentioned on this show before. It 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:26.440 came up in our episodes titled Devour of Memories. Remember 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.480 that about about the plenaria and the and the research 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.800 about whether you could gain somebody's memories by eating their body. 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:36.000 Uh So in this episode that we mentioned to study 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.920 about a type of large sea slug called the California 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:43.160 sea hair or Aplasia californica. Uh And in that other 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.720 episode study came up because it demonstrated associate of learning 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:51.120 and classical conditioning in an invertebrate sea slug. So you 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:56.480 offer a sea hair some delicious shrimp extract. But in 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.480 the test group, well, the sea hair is munching on 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.240 the shrimp extract, it gets an electric shock to the 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.800 head that this painful stimulus results in not a frown, 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.679 of course, but measurable behaviors in the slug. It withdraws 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.080 its head, it withdraws its siphon, It inks, and it 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:16.640 moves away from the shrimp at extract. And sure enough, 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.920 if you train it on these associations. When simply when 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.160 the animals from the test group are simply presented with 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:28.199 shrimp extract, they will pull back the siphon and move away. 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.000 By the way, see hair and the electric shrimp extract 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:32.960 would be a great name for a band. Just put 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:34.960 that out there. I think that was a Bob Weir 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.440 side project. Wasn't ok um. But whether or not, it 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.080 makes sense to use the same word we use for 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:45.160 emotions and other mammals. Quote the observed behavioral responses to 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:51.199 conditions stimuli resemble the actions of conditioned fear in mammals. Subjectively, 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.080 it might not make sense to talk about fear in 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.160 a sea slug. We don't know, but it certainly behaviorally 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.320 looks like fear. It looks like the same thing we 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.840 recognize this fear in mammals or in other humans. Because 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.800 of course, nothing about the shrimp extract itself causes pain. 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.800 It couldn't be a simple stimulus response. It has to 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.040 be this association with pain, the memory of you know, 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.720 the fear caused by the memory. And a lot of 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.240 invertebrate studies into emotions look for signs of fear because 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:22.400 fear is easier to study. Presumable fear inducing stimuli are 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.640 relatively easy to create, and behavioral responses are relatively easy 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:30.040 to detect. There's another example that the author's site here, 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.959 which is fear research into Drosophila also known commonly as 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.680 fruit flies or as vinegar flies small fruit flies. UH. 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.760 This is an extremely common organism for lab research. You'll 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.960 find tons of studies UH modeling other things in complex 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:50.000 organisms as they appear in Drosophila. So in twif Gibson 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:54.360 at all studied fear and Drosophila caused by the stimulus 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:59.040 of an overhead shadow, they used a rotating opaque paddle. 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.120 I don't know if it was a ping pong paddle. 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:02.959 I kind of hope it was. It was some kind 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.560 of paddle that would be made to rotate in a 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.840 circle in in in a steady progression, repeat passages over 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:14.120 a container of these these flies that would be as say, 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.199 eating a food source or something. And the authors found 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:22.360 that multiple repetitive exposures to this overhead shadow caused the 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:26.120 flies to fly around more, to hop more, to freeze more, 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.760 and to fly away from a food source. And there 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.480 was evidence in this study that the passing shadow led 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.840 to a generalized internal state. The more times the shadow 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.920 passed over, the more avoidance responses happened. So it looks 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.320 like within the flies it wasn't just stimulus response. The 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:48.680 shadow passes, then you fly away. If you are repeatedly 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.880 subjected to this stress inducing stimulus, the flies appear to 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.880 enter a state where they're just they're just in a 0:13:55.920 --> 0:14:00.120 semi permanent way agitated. They're flying around there there of 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.800 leaving the food source. It looks like they have the 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:07.480 internal state of being afraid, and the avoidance responses remained 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.360 remained more elevated. Even after the stimulus stopped. The shadow 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.320 would stop passing over, and for some time afterwards, the 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.480 flies acted more agitated, more likely to fly away from 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.880 the food source than flies with less exposure to the shadow, 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.560 and this makes it seem as if the avoidance reactions 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.920 were not just the direct immediate response to the shadow, 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:30.520 but also influenced by this internal state within the flies 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:32.840 nervous systems, which is similar to how fear works and 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.720 humans and other vertebrates. Something jumps out and scares you, 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.520 you have an immediate response, maybe you shriek, maybe you 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.400 pee a little, you know, maybe maybe you jump, But 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.960 then you also remain in a state you're on edge 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.600 for several minutes afterwards, showing these anxiety behaviors even when 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:54.880 the scary thing is gone or no longer represents a threat. Unfortunately, 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.520 this is a lot of how we live our lives actually, Right, Like, 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.600 there's something that kind of like startle as you, gets 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.600 you on edge, and maybe it's not even something that 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.840 would be a physical threat. Maybe it's just a conceptual threat. 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:07.800 You know, you get an email or a tweet or 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:09.680 anything that kind of puts you on edge, and then 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.360 you just stay that way for a good long while. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.240 all day generally. Yeah, what happens when you reach for 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.880 your phone first thing in the morning, right, and I 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.920 think that that's an important thing. It calls to to 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:26.000 attention the difference between fear and anxiety. Fear, of course, 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.000 is a response to the perception of an immediate threat, 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.720 a clear and present danger, and it results mostly in 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.080 escape behaviors by animals. You're trying to, you know, defend 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.840 yourself and get away. Whereas anxiety is related to fear 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.400 but slightly different. Fear is a response to the clear 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:48.520 and present danger. Anxiety is a response to ambiguous, imagined, 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:52.320 or potential threats. When there's a threat that's not necessarily 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.080 right in front of you, but you imagine it might 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:58.640 be waiting nearby, it might be around the corner. Yeah, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:03.160 it's kind of lurking in the the the information sphere 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.600 around you, as opposed to being right there in front 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.600 of you. Uh. And and of course they bringing back 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.360 to the human experience, we have no shortage of Fear 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.280 is just sort of rotating around us in the information sphere. 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.480 And this state of anxiety actually brings us to the crawdads. 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.920 I know, we promised we'd we'd get there eventually, a 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.800 k A crayfish a k A. Mudbugs. Did you grow 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.160 up calling them mudbugs? No, this is what I've just 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.000 heard them called. Did you catch them in the creek? No? 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:31.960 I know I was never around them growing up, but 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.960 I have family that lives in southern Mississippi, and you 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:40.160 know they're they're all about them, uh down there. In fact, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.360 I've been to and then this will this will be 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.480 like an image to come back to. As we discussed 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:49.200 their possible emotional states. I went to a Marty Groppard, 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.080 not the main Marty grap right, but I like, you know, 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.680 one leading up to it in southern Mississippi, and there 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:59.200 were like games where live crawfish were thrown by children, 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.120 like they road crawfish back and forth at each other 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.320 and then occasionally fall onto the concrete and all. And 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.320 um yeah, at the time I thought it was weird 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.560 and kind of barbaric. So man, maybe I'll feel even 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.080 more so as we discussed their their their inter emotional 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.720 states here, so it gets turned inward as well. Though. 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.080 Do you ever play the game I assume you didn't 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:19.480 or see people play the game where you just let 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.760 a crawdad pinch, you know, just like let it pinch 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.760 your nose or your finger or something. Did you do 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.720 this growing up? Uh? No, but I had friends who did. 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.680 Where was this in Tennessee? They were to carl crawdads 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.680 just in the creeks. Well, I guess there were probably 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:35.879 a different species, I'm not quite sure than the one 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:37.840 we're about to talk about, but yeah, there were some 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:44.120 kind of crayfish shaped organism living in the creeks freshwater creeks. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.360 My main experience with them is just occasionally eating them 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.560 as an adult. Um, but that's about it. Never got 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.000 to play with them as a child. But for anyone 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:54.879 out there who does doesn't, it still doesn't know what 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.040 we're talking about. It's essentially a small crustacean like a 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:02.000 fresh a small fresh water only lobster, right, yeah, tiny lobster. 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.240 The specific uh species that's going to come up in 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:09.360 the in the research we're getting to is Procamboris clarkey. 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.560 And yes, these are the crawlfish of the famed Louisiana 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.360 crawfish boil. So I don't know if they were if 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.880 they were boiled up with some zatarans and eating after 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.879 the test there. I should also add that sometimes you'll 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.840 see crayfish in aquarium settings and they can be quite 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.520 beautiful as well. So you know, I don't think human 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:32.359 and humans humanity. Relationship with the crayfish is mostly uh, 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.520 mostly something that revolves around eating them, but sometimes you'll 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.000 see them as pets. Now, to come back to the 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.680 idea of anxiety, we were talking about the difference between 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.680 fear and anxiety. You know, we're saying fear often results 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:47.439 in escape behaviors. Anxiety is often thought to result in 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:52.720 conservative or defense behavior, for example, to limit openness and 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.879 to limit exploratory behavior. Animals in an anxious state are 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.080 more likely to seek out closed familiar and protect it 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.119 in environments, whereas animals in a non anxious state are 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:07.280 more likely to explore unfamiliar and open environments. And one 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.600 type of experiment that has been used to study anxiety 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.679 in animals like rats and mice and now in crayfish 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.800 is the elevated plus maze. So, Robert, had you ever 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:20.399 seen one of these before? I don't think I'd encountered 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.040 one of these before, and I don't remember encountering one 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.439 in a study. I've certainly never been in one. So 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:28.800 you imagine a simple platform in the shape of a 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:32.000 plus sign. You've got two arms of the plus sign 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.680 that are enclosed by walls, and then the other two 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:40.360 arms are open. They're just straight platforms without walls. And 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:42.719 this shows up in all kinds of studies. How an 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:46.280 animal moves within an elevated plus maze or EPM can 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.280 be manipulated by lots of variables that are thought to 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.280 control anxiety. The more time the animal spins in the 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.840 closed section enclosed by the walls, you know, sort of 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:00.440 protected and hidden, usually the more anxious and is thought 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.120 to be. And many animals, maybe most small animals, tend 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.560 to prefer dark, enclosed places. These are the types of 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.680 places that they are more likely to be protected from 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.639 predators in their natural environments. Like the rat in your house, 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.600 it likes to hide inside the walls and behind the 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:19.480 fridge and stuff. It doesn't like to hang out in 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.280 the middle of the floor, right like a wide open 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.480 spaces that's where a hawk can swoop down and pick 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:27.600 you up. That sort of thing. Right. It will only 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.320 venture out into the open spaces in order to explore 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:33.560 and seek rewards. It might go out there if there's 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.400 food in the middle of the floor, um, But if 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:38.800 it sees something scary, what does it do? It runs 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:42.040 to an enclosed space. The more an animal like a rat, 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:44.720 has an induced state of anxiety due to an ambiguous 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.240 or possible threat, the more it will tend to confine 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.720 itself to dark, enclosed spaces. And conversely, the less anxiety 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:53.960 it has, the more it will feel free to explore 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.520 open spaces. Uh. And the e p M is widely 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.280 used in studying animal anxiety and in the test sting 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.119 of anti anxiety medications. Now here's where the crowd ads 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.040 come in. So the elevated plus mayze has been widely 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.200 used in anxiety research like we're saying, and almost all 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.000 these studies have been on vertebrates, but since there have 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.560 been at least two studies using the plus maze test 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:21.200 on crayfish. Again, this is procam Boris Clarkey, and the 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.679 updated design used an elevated plus mayze submerged in water 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.399 with the enclosed arms shaded so that they were dark 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:34.640 because in their protected environments, the crayfish like dark places. 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.960 That's a natural defensive preference they have. So there were 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:40.320 a couple of studies. One was Fawcett at all in 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:44.840 fourteen and one was Bacquey casanave at all in seen 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.840 and They both found that if you subjected the crayfish 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:52.440 to frightful stimuli ahead of time, they would spend more 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:56.360