1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for a classic episode 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: of the show. This one originally aired March seventeen, and 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: it's the second of our two part series about invertebrate emotions. 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: So we hope you enjoy and maybe fall in love 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: with the slug Welcome to s About to Blow your 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff 9 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two of 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: our exploration of invertebrate emotions. In the last episode, we 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: talked about the paper Nautilus or the argonaut. We read 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: that great Marion more poem. We talked about what emotions 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: are the difficulties and studying them, and we talked about 15 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: anecdotes about people really seeing personnel, pity, character, and emotion 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: in octopuses, but then also scientific studies looking for certain 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: types of measurable cognitive effects of emotions or emotion like 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: states in invertebrates like bees. We talked about the judgment 19 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: bias test and how bees might have biases that come 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: about in optimistic or pessimistic ways based on how they're 21 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,199 Speaker 1: quote feeling. Yeah, A big part of the conversation last 22 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: episode was I think, ultimately about stripping down emotion to 23 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: something that doesn't depend upon the subjective human experience, and 24 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: in doing so something that I don't want to make 25 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: it sound like we're, oh, we're just we're cutting out 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: all the important stuff. I think a lot of what 27 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: we're cutting out is the poetic stuff, the the the 28 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: the extra like self contemplation stuff, and getting down to 29 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: the root of what is an emotional state, how does 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: it affect um our behavior and our expectations, and then 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, how do we see that echoed in other organisms? Right? Well, 32 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: we're cutting out yeah this by cutting out the subjective element, 33 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: We're cutting out the part that would be impossible to 34 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: study in other animals and just trying to say what 35 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: our emotional states as manifested externally. Yeah, But of course 36 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 1: the difficulty, as we discussed, is by taking out the 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: subjective aspect of it, we're taking out the part that 38 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: is closest to us and the thing that you instantly 39 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: think about when we even say the word emotion of course, 40 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: sweet emotion. Oh no, that song fills me with bad emotion, 41 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: did you. Oh, I don't know if I ever gotten 42 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: to do this rant before. Y'all know I hate Aerosmith. 43 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: Oh no, I don't know. Well, I think you may 44 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: have mentioned it once in passing. Yeah, even even the 45 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: early stuff. I don't know. I mean, I can be 46 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: that classic rock radio uncle, like you know when led 47 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: Zeppelin comes on, I'm like, yeah, I feel it, but 48 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: I don't know that something about Aerosmith just turns my 49 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: head three sixty degrees. Well, I have to admitted really 50 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: like a dream on. That's that's if I hear that 51 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: one on classic rock radio, I'll tune in and listen. Well, 52 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm glad you like it. Hey, folks, this is Joe 53 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: from the Few. You're swooping in to alter the past. 54 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: Sorry about the audio, but I realized on listening back 55 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: to this episode that in our excitement about the topic, 56 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,839 Speaker 1: we forgot to reintroduce the paper that we were talking 57 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: about in the first episode, and then we're gonna be 58 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: talking about throughout this one as well. So that paper 59 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: was by Clint J. Perry and Luigi Bachi at Donna 60 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: and it's called studying emotion and invertebrates. What has been done, 61 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: what can be measured, and what they can provide. It 62 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: was published in the Journal of Experimental Biology in Okay, 63 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: now back to our original conversation. Okay, But so the 64 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: last time we talked about one of the main three 65 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: branches of external ways of studying emotions and animals. We 66 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: talked about you know that they're they're perhaps cognitive effects 67 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: of emotions, that emotions affect how you perceive the world 68 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: and how you think. That there are behavioral tests of emotions, 69 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: that emotions affect how you act, and that there are 70 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: physiological tests of emotions that emotions affect involuntary physical reaction 71 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: in the body. And we last time we looked at cognition. 72 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: This time we're gonna look at the other two. So 73 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: the first would be behavioral tests behavioral signs of emotional states. 74 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: And one of the things that I think we should 75 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 1: first acknowledge is that I'd say, this is the primary 76 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: way that we sense emotions in other people. What do 77 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: people usually do with their bodies, especially their faces, when 78 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: they're feeling various emotions. But as the authors point out 79 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: quite helpfully, they say, quote invertebrates lack the facial musculature 80 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: for any real type of comparisons to be made in 81 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: this regard, so I think that the jury is in. 82 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: You can't tell if a hornet is smiling. You can't 83 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: tell if there is disgusted on the face of that crab. Yeah, 84 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: I mean, as if a crab had a face anyway. Right, Um, 85 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: but my flogging that horse again, it's not really a 86 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: horse I flog. But no, no, no no, Actually, you're right. 87 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: I think i'd agree the crab. I don't know crabs 88 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: pushing it. I don't know if a crab has a face. Yeah, 89 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: I mean, it definitely has the front of a head, 90 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: But that front of a head with the crab is 91 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: not really it's not used for communication. Crabs depend on 92 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: sound as well as you know. The claw waving and 93 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: overall movement displays general body language, but predominantly sound is 94 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: their their form of communication. The wasp for their part, uh, 95 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: they depend primarily on smell for communication. We will get 96 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: into that a little bit in the last episode with 97 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: the bees. So their communication since realm is not really 98 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: our own. Um, they exist in a in a different 99 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: realm in that regard, right, But the behavioral effects of 100 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: underlying emotional states are not limited to facial expressions alone, 101 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: just because that's maybe the main way we see emotions 102 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: in other people. Uh, the author's right quote. A substantial 103 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: amount of work in mammals has utilized other bodily expressions 104 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: and motor behavior in response to stimuli to assess both 105 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: valence meaning the pleasantness, and intensity meaning the level of 106 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: arousal of emotions. And I really think the horse is 107 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: a great example of this for a couple of reasons. 108 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: First of all, the horse is an animal that is, 109 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: that lives in close proximity to humans, that is adored 110 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: by humans. That is, that is often you know, championed 111 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: as being this next to the dog and you know 112 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: the cat, I guess it is. It is a friend 113 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: of humanity. And uh. And my wife being super into 114 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: horses and pretty knowledgeable about them, she's just told me 115 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: about some of this before, but I was I also 116 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: looked up a source on this for this episode How 117 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: to Read Your Horses Body Language by Jennifer Williams, PhD 118 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: for ACQUSS Magazine, and Williams points out that if a 119 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: novice were to view a skilled horse trainer in action, 120 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: they might well guess that this individual is psychic or 121 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: has some sort of mystical Cormac McCarthy in connection to 122 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: the soul of the horse, you know, the deep, dark, 123 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: mystical soil soul of the horse. But it's really all 124 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: about knowing how to read these other signs, the overall 125 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: body language of the horse and then these other sort 126 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: of non facial or semi facial cues. Well, yeah, I mean, 127 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: I think if you're a dog person, if you've got 128 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: a dog in your house, think about like, how finally 129 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: a tune you are to your dogs feelings, levels of excitement, 130 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: motivations and and quote emotional states or you know, there's 131 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: something that is analogous to these emotional states. Uh that 132 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: if somebody who had never met a dog before or 133 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: hadn't spent much time around dogs saw you interacting with 134 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: your dog, they might well think the same thing. You 135 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: must be psychic. Yeah, but no, A lot of it 136 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: is about picking up on all of this language, or 137 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: indeed just knowing what to look for. So in the 138 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: case of the horse, for instance, Um, your position is 139 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: very important. Is one of the apparently the first things 140 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: you tend to learn about about understanding a horse's emotional state, 141 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: so that the ears may face forward, meaning they're interested. 142 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: They may be pinned back, meaning they're angry and they're 143 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: prone to bite or act you know, aggressively slash defensively. Uh. 144 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: They might be turned out to the side, meaning they're relaxed. 145 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: They might be turned back but not pinned, and this 146 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: means they're listening to something behind them, and it also 147 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: means they might decide they need to turn around to 148 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: go look at it, and horses, being large animals, it's 149 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: something to be aware of. Uh. And then they also 150 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: might be rapidly swiveling, meaning that they're anxious or at 151 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: their you know, at a high level of alertness. But 152 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: then on top of that there's also head carriage head 153 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: maybe lowered elevated snaking. You have to consider four leg 154 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: and hind leg movement and position, muzzle activity, which this 155 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: some of this gets more in line with what you 156 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: might expect from a face, you know, like what are 157 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: the nostrils doing? Uh, you know, what what's the mouth doing, 158 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: what are they doing with their teeth? That sort of thing. 159 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: There is a certain level of like what are their 160 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: eyes doing? Uh? You know, to someone that doesn't really 161 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: know anything about horses, it's easy to sort of think 162 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: of the eyes as being sort of like big empty 163 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: glasses without a lot of emotion. But there is stuff 164 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: you can read into it. There's the movement of the tail, 165 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: and then there's just general whole body stuff like what 166 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: is the overall bodily tension of the animal, how is it, 167 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: how is it moving and uh, And you can really 168 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: take all of that and read into the emotional state 169 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: of the horse. But if you just look at you know, 170 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: what you might be tempted to call the face of 171 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: the horse, you're not necessarily going to pick up on 172 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 1: on all those cues you have. And I think part 173 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: of this two gets we have to think about the 174 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: human situation. So clearly humans have body language. You know, 175 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: there's more than just the facial communication array with human 176 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: beings totally, but we do depend on the facial communication 177 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: array a lot, and we do fixate on it to 178 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: a very large degree. But basically, what I'm trying to say, 179 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: using the horses in an example, that there are there 180 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: are there are various parts of an organism that you 181 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,599 Speaker 1: can look to to to figure out what their emotional 182 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: state is, and it may or may not be something 183 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: that matches up with the human idea, the idea of 184 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: a face. Yes, so what would be some of these 185 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 1: external behaviors that we could measure in invertebrates. One of 186 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: the most obvious behavioral signs of underlying emotional states and 187 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: animals is retreat behaviors. So but you know, like in 188 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: fear or anxiety, animals will retreat, retracting or covering vulnerable 189 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: body parts, adopting defensive posture, and running away. These are 190 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: some of the clearest ones to look for in all 191 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: of animal behavior. And so the first example cited by 192 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: the authors here looks at exactly that. And it's actually 193 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: a study we've already mentioned on this show before. It 194 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: came up in our episodes titled Devour of Memories. Remember 195 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: that about about the plenaria and the and the research 196 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: about whether you could gain somebody's memories by eating their body. 197 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: Uh So in this episode that we mentioned to study 198 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: about a type of large sea slug called the California 199 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: sea hair or Aplasia californica. Uh And in that other 200 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: episode study came up because it demonstrated associate of learning 201 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: and classical conditioning in an invertebrate sea slug. So you 202 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: offer a sea hair some delicious shrimp extract. But in 203 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: the test group, well, the sea hair is munching on 204 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: the shrimp extract, it gets an electric shock to the 205 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: head that this painful stimulus results in not a frown, 206 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: of course, but measurable behaviors in the slug. It withdraws 207 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: its head, it withdraws its siphon, It inks, and it 208 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: moves away from the shrimp at extract. And sure enough, 209 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: if you train it on these associations. When simply when 210 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: the animals from the test group are simply presented with 211 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: shrimp extract, they will pull back the siphon and move away. 212 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: By the way, see hair and the electric shrimp extract 213 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: would be a great name for a band. Just put 214 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: that out there. I think that was a Bob Weir 215 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: side project. Wasn't ok um. But whether or not, it 216 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: makes sense to use the same word we use for 217 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: emotions and other mammals. Quote the observed behavioral responses to 218 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: conditions stimuli resemble the actions of conditioned fear in mammals. Subjectively, 219 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: it might not make sense to talk about fear in 220 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: a sea slug. We don't know, but it certainly behaviorally 221 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: looks like fear. It looks like the same thing we 222 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: recognize this fear in mammals or in other humans. Because 223 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: of course, nothing about the shrimp extract itself causes pain. 224 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: It couldn't be a simple stimulus response. It has to 225 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: be this association with pain, the memory of you know, 226 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: the fear caused by the memory. And a lot of 227 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: invertebrate studies into emotions look for signs of fear because 228 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: fear is easier to study. Presumable fear inducing stimuli are 229 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: relatively easy to create, and behavioral responses are relatively easy 230 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: to detect. There's another example that the author's site here, 231 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 1: which is fear research into Drosophila also known commonly as 232 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: fruit flies or as vinegar flies small fruit flies. UH. 233 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: This is an extremely common organism for lab research. You'll 234 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: find tons of studies UH modeling other things in complex 235 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: organisms as they appear in Drosophila. So in twif Gibson 236 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: at all studied fear and Drosophila caused by the stimulus 237 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: of an overhead shadow, they used a rotating opaque paddle. 238 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was a ping pong paddle. 239 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: I kind of hope it was. It was some kind 240 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: of paddle that would be made to rotate in a 241 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: circle in in in a steady progression, repeat passages over 242 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: a container of these these flies that would be as say, 243 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: eating a food source or something. And the authors found 244 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: that multiple repetitive exposures to this overhead shadow caused the 245 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: flies to fly around more, to hop more, to freeze more, 246 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: and to fly away from a food source. And there 247 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: was evidence in this study that the passing shadow led 248 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: to a generalized internal state. The more times the shadow 249 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: passed over, the more avoidance responses happened. So it looks 250 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: like within the flies it wasn't just stimulus response. The 251 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: shadow passes, then you fly away. If you are repeatedly 252 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: subjected to this stress inducing stimulus, the flies appear to 253 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: enter a state where they're just they're just in a 254 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: semi permanent way agitated. They're flying around there there of 255 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: leaving the food source. It looks like they have the 256 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: internal state of being afraid, and the avoidance responses remained 257 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: remained more elevated. Even after the stimulus stopped. The shadow 258 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: would stop passing over, and for some time afterwards, the 259 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: flies acted more agitated, more likely to fly away from 260 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: the food source than flies with less exposure to the shadow, 261 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: and this makes it seem as if the avoidance reactions 262 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: were not just the direct immediate response to the shadow, 263 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: but also influenced by this internal state within the flies 264 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: nervous systems, which is similar to how fear works and 265 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: humans and other vertebrates. Something jumps out and scares you, 266 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: you have an immediate response, maybe you shriek, maybe you 267 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: pee a little, you know, maybe maybe you jump, But 268 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: then you also remain in a state you're on edge 269 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: for several minutes afterwards, showing these anxiety behaviors even when 270 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: the scary thing is gone or no longer represents a threat. Unfortunately, 271 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: this is a lot of how we live our lives actually, Right, Like, 272 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: there's something that kind of like startle as you, gets 273 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: you on edge, and maybe it's not even something that 274 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: would be a physical threat. Maybe it's just a conceptual threat. 275 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: You know, you get an email or a tweet or 276 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: anything that kind of puts you on edge, and then 277 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: you just stay that way for a good long while. Yeah, yeah, 278 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: all day generally. Yeah, what happens when you reach for 279 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: your phone first thing in the morning, right, and I 280 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: think that that's an important thing. It calls to to 281 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: attention the difference between fear and anxiety. Fear, of course, 282 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: is a response to the perception of an immediate threat, 283 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: a clear and present danger, and it results mostly in 284 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: escape behaviors by animals. You're trying to, you know, defend 285 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: yourself and get away. Whereas anxiety is related to fear 286 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: but slightly different. Fear is a response to the clear 287 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: and present danger. Anxiety is a response to ambiguous, imagined, 288 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: or potential threats. When there's a threat that's not necessarily 289 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: right in front of you, but you imagine it might 290 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: be waiting nearby, it might be around the corner. Yeah, 291 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: it's kind of lurking in the the the information sphere 292 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: around you, as opposed to being right there in front 293 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: of you. Uh. And and of course they bringing back 294 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: to the human experience, we have no shortage of Fear 295 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: is just sort of rotating around us in the information sphere. 296 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: And this state of anxiety actually brings us to the crawdads. 297 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: I know, we promised we'd we'd get there eventually, a 298 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: k A crayfish a k A. Mudbugs. Did you grow 299 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: up calling them mudbugs? No, this is what I've just 300 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: heard them called. Did you catch them in the creek? No? 301 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: I know I was never around them growing up, but 302 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: I have family that lives in southern Mississippi, and you 303 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: know they're they're all about them, uh down there. In fact, 304 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: I've been to and then this will this will be 305 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: like an image to come back to. As we discussed 306 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: their possible emotional states. I went to a Marty Groppard, 307 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: not the main Marty grap right, but I like, you know, 308 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: one leading up to it in southern Mississippi, and there 309 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: were like games where live crawfish were thrown by children, 310 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: like they road crawfish back and forth at each other 311 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: and then occasionally fall onto the concrete and all. And 312 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: um yeah, at the time I thought it was weird 313 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: and kind of barbaric. So man, maybe I'll feel even 314 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: more so as we discussed their their their inter emotional 315 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: states here, so it gets turned inward as well. Though. 316 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: Do you ever play the game I assume you didn't 317 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: or see people play the game where you just let 318 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: a crawdad pinch, you know, just like let it pinch 319 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: your nose or your finger or something. Did you do 320 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: this growing up? Uh? No, but I had friends who did. 321 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: Where was this in Tennessee? They were to carl crawdads 322 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: just in the creeks. Well, I guess there were probably 323 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: a different species, I'm not quite sure than the one 324 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: we're about to talk about, but yeah, there were some 325 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: kind of crayfish shaped organism living in the creeks freshwater creeks. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. 326 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 1: My main experience with them is just occasionally eating them 327 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: as an adult. Um, but that's about it. Never got 328 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: to play with them as a child. But for anyone 329 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: out there who does doesn't, it still doesn't know what 330 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about. It's essentially a small crustacean like a 331 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: fresh a small fresh water only lobster, right, yeah, tiny lobster. 332 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: The specific uh species that's going to come up in 333 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: the in the research we're getting to is Procamboris clarkey. 334 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: And yes, these are the crawlfish of the famed Louisiana 335 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: crawfish boil. So I don't know if they were if 336 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: they were boiled up with some zatarans and eating after 337 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: the test there. I should also add that sometimes you'll 338 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: see crayfish in aquarium settings and they can be quite 339 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: beautiful as well. So you know, I don't think human 340 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: and humans humanity. Relationship with the crayfish is mostly uh, 341 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: mostly something that revolves around eating them, but sometimes you'll 342 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: see them as pets. Now, to come back to the 343 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: idea of anxiety, we were talking about the difference between 344 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: fear and anxiety. You know, we're saying fear often results 345 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: in escape behaviors. Anxiety is often thought to result in 346 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: conservative or defense behavior, for example, to limit openness and 347 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: to limit exploratory behavior. Animals in an anxious state are 348 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: more likely to seek out closed familiar and protect it 349 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: in environments, whereas animals in a non anxious state are 350 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: more likely to explore unfamiliar and open environments. And one 351 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: type of experiment that has been used to study anxiety 352 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: in animals like rats and mice and now in crayfish 353 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: is the elevated plus maze. So, Robert, had you ever 354 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: seen one of these before? I don't think I'd encountered 355 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: one of these before, and I don't remember encountering one 356 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 1: in a study. I've certainly never been in one. So 357 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: you imagine a simple platform in the shape of a 358 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: plus sign. You've got two arms of the plus sign 359 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: that are enclosed by walls, and then the other two 360 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: arms are open. They're just straight platforms without walls. And 361 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 1: this shows up in all kinds of studies. How an 362 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: animal moves within an elevated plus maze or EPM can 363 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: be manipulated by lots of variables that are thought to 364 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: control anxiety. The more time the animal spins in the 365 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: closed section enclosed by the walls, you know, sort of 366 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: protected and hidden, usually the more anxious and is thought 367 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: to be. And many animals, maybe most small animals, tend 368 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: to prefer dark, enclosed places. These are the types of 369 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: places that they are more likely to be protected from 370 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: predators in their natural environments. Like the rat in your house, 371 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: it likes to hide inside the walls and behind the 372 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: fridge and stuff. It doesn't like to hang out in 373 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: the middle of the floor, right like a wide open 374 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: spaces that's where a hawk can swoop down and pick 375 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: you up. That sort of thing. Right. It will only 376 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: venture out into the open spaces in order to explore 377 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: and seek rewards. It might go out there if there's 378 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: food in the middle of the floor, um, But if 379 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: it sees something scary, what does it do? It runs 380 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: to an enclosed space. The more an animal like a rat, 381 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: has an induced state of anxiety due to an ambiguous 382 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: or possible threat, the more it will tend to confine 383 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: itself to dark, enclosed spaces. And conversely, the less anxiety 384 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: it has, the more it will feel free to explore 385 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: open spaces. Uh. And the e p M is widely 386 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: used in studying animal anxiety and in the test sting 387 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: of anti anxiety medications. Now here's where the crowd ads 388 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: come in. So the elevated plus mayze has been widely 389 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: used in anxiety research like we're saying, and almost all 390 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: these studies have been on vertebrates, but since there have 391 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: been at least two studies using the plus maze test 392 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: on crayfish. Again, this is procam Boris Clarkey, and the 393 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: updated design used an elevated plus mayze submerged in water 394 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: with the enclosed arms shaded so that they were dark 395 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: because in their protected environments, the crayfish like dark places. 396 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: That's a natural defensive preference they have. So there were 397 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: a couple of studies. One was Fawcett at all in 398 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: fourteen and one was Bacquey casanave at all in seen 399 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: and They both found that if you subjected the crayfish 400 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: to frightful stimuli ahead of time, they would spend more 401 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: time in the shielded, dark, enclosed areas of the elevated 402 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: plus may so the examples were mildly painful shocks and 403 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: harassment by a larger crawfish. So like, if you take 404 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: a smaller crayfish and then subject it to a bigger 405 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: one doing dominance displays, the one, the little one, the 406 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 1: one that is being harassed, will tend to spend more 407 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: time in the enclosed area in less time exploring the 408 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: open platforms. And the authors right quote. These behavioral results 409 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: fulfill criteria normally designated for anxiety and mammals, including being innate, 410 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: being unconditioned, occurring in the absence of a stressor, and 411 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: expressed in a novel context. Al Right, so in this 412 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: experiment we see the evidence that a crayfish, something we 413 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: don't think of as having emotional states, really ultimately has 414 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: something very similar that to the the fear that is 415 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: experienced by a mouse or a rat, and therefore very 416 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: similar to what we experience. Right, So it's not just 417 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: stimulus response. I mean you could you might imagine that 418 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: an animal without emotional states could say retreat in the 419 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: immat term from something that's threatening it by going into 420 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: an enclosed space. But even afterwards it seems to remain 421 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: in this internal state where it prefers to stay in 422 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: the closed protected spaces and does less exploring than a 423 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: control crayfish if it has at some recent time been 424 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: threatened or harassed. It sounds like a familiar story. Yeah, yeah, 425 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: Like like I say, if we take away sort of 426 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: the the holy human qualities of fear, uh and and 427 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: look at it objectively, like this's what we're looking at here, 428 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: We're looking at the fear of the crawfish. Well, maybe 429 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: we should take a quick break and the when we 430 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: come back we can discuss the joy of the fire. Ant. Alright, 431 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: we're back. So the authors of this study we've been 432 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: looking at point out one shortcoming of the existing body 433 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: of research on animal emotions, and it's that it is, 434 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: as on the whole, overly focused on negative emotions. Quote. 435 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: It is argued that the reasons that positive and motions 436 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: have been neglected in research, or because they are few 437 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: in number, reflected even in the imbalance of English language 438 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: words for negative over positive emotions and are harder to differentiate. 439 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: The asymmetry might also stem from our understanding that natural 440 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: selection has shaped emotions more for survival than for prosperity. 441 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: There are many more threats than treats in our environment. Also, 442 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: they point out that if we're looking for tests mirroring 443 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: work done on humans, most psychological and clinical work in 444 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: the history of science has been focused on solving problems 445 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: rather than on studying ways in which people are doing fine, 446 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: all of which I think is probably true. I mean, 447 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: I think all of those reasons are valid. But despite 448 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: these limitations, it would be great to have more research 449 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: attempting to understand positive emotions or the state's analogous to 450 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: positive emotions in non human animals and invertebrates. Like, it's 451 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: just kind of a bummer and kind of limiting when 452 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: it's overwhelmingly research on fear and aversion. Yeah, that's an 453 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: interesting point about like even the the the English language 454 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: bias for negativity as opposed to positivity. Uh, it makes 455 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: me think of going to our our neighborhood reality the 456 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: only video rental store in the city or state video Drume. 457 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: Video Drum has a sizeable horror selection, and I love 458 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: to lose myself in it. But what is the opposite 459 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: of the horror section? There's not really one. I guess 460 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: what the maybe the comedies but Robert Altman section. Maybe that. 461 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: I mean even you know, any comedy, any drum, anything 462 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: that's not like straight up like a little kids cinema. 463 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: I mean, to whatever extent that exists, like anything that's 464 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: not just teletopies is going to have risk and danger 465 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: and these negative emotions that are there to at least 466 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: propel the corresponding positive ones. Yeah, I think you're exactly right, 467 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: And I think the point they're making is a good one. 468 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: That it's not necessarily that there's more, you know, uh, 469 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: negative emotion than positive emotion in human life, but that 470 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: for some reason we're more we're happier to let positive 471 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: emotions all kind of blend together and be the same thing. 472 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 1: They're all just you know, there are a million different 473 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 1: forms of happiness and joy, but we don't have as 474 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: many differentiated words for those states, you know, whereas you know, 475 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: we're we're very into getting down in the nitty gritty 476 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: of different types of ways to feel bad. Well, I 477 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: guess one of the it kind of comes back a 478 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: little bit probably to something we've discussed before, the idea 479 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: that when you're happy, if you contemplate about your happiness, 480 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: if you stop to consider your happiness, then it goes away. 481 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: But if you don't need to think about it too much, yeah, 482 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: you don't really have enough time to get to nuanced 483 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: in the language. Whereas a negative, a good negative emotion 484 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: will just really sit there and you can get to 485 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: know it. You can you can really uh, you know, 486 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: formalize your relationship with it. Yeah. Now, on the other hand, 487 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 1: there have been a few studies that have gone against 488 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: this trend of focusing overwhelmingly on negative emotions in these 489 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: animal studies. For example, in the last st episode, we 490 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: talked about the one cognitive tests, the judgment bias test, 491 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: that at least appeared to show the cognitive effects of 492 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: something like pleasure or happiness in the bumblebee. You remember, 493 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: it was like, if you give the bumble bee a 494 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: free treat, give it some free sugar, it will tend 495 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: after that to at least appear to have an optimistic 496 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: bias to interpret ambiguous information as as being something good 497 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: or approachable. The next line of research involves the behavior 498 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: and ants that some researchers think may be associated with 499 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: an internal state analogous to happiness or joy. Uh so, 500 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: what might the dreaded fire ant have in common with 501 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: your favorite cute puppy wagging? Butt wagging? Do tell, Do tell? Alright? 502 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: So the red imported fire ant or Solenopsis invicta, has 503 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: displayed a very interesting behavior observed by a number of researchers, 504 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: reported in a study in sixteen by Debbie Castle, christophord Liu, 505 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 1: Hun Daniels, Shiftman, and S. Bradley Vincent called a Study 506 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: on Abdominal Wagging in the fire ant Solenopsis Invicta with 507 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: Speculation on its meaning in the Journal of Bioeconomics. So, 508 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: the researchers were just watching lots of hours of video 509 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: taken from inside a fire ant nest, and from these 510 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: observations they started to notice a pattern of behavior where 511 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: the ants inside the nest would basically stick their butt 512 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: up in the air and wave it around. Quote they 513 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: position and move their abdomen up and down at forty 514 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: five degrees, and they called this behavior wagging. Now raising 515 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: and wiggling the abdomen has uses in other contexts for 516 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: fire ants. You may have seen fire ants doing this defensively. 517 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: The abdomen or back segment of the body is also 518 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: known as a gaster, which is great like Charles Dickens name, 519 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: you know, like like William Gaster uh And outside the 520 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: nest the behavior is known as gaster flagging. They'll flag. 521 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: Usually involves raising the abdomen up higher something more like 522 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: ninety degrees. Flagging is apparently used during foraging to disperse 523 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: venom into the air, and it's believed to deter other 524 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: insects like competitor ants from the foraging area. So you're 525 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: out trying to gather food for the colony and then 526 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: some other ants come in, you will stick your butt 527 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: up in the air and spit some venom out into 528 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: the air to try to drive the other ants off. 529 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: There's also some evidence that some abdominal wagging or gas 530 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: or flagging emits a sound as the gaster joint rubs 531 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: across itself, and this would be a tiny, high pitched squeak. 532 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: We're not sure what role this sound plays, but it's 533 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: possible that has a It has a role in communications, 534 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: such as calling for help when an ant is trapped 535 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: or when it's in trouble. However, Castle at all believe 536 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: that in their observations, the inside the nest wagging behavior 537 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: was not defensive in any way. Within the nest, they 538 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: found that the wagging emitted neither sound nor um, no squeaks, 539 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: no toxins, and the stinger was never extended during this period. 540 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: So if they're just wagging around and has nothing to 541 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: do with the other types of wagging that these ants 542 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: normally do, what's going on. Furthermore, they found that the 543 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: inside nest wagging happened primarily when the ants were engaged 544 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: in two activities, eating sugar or tending to the brood 545 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: in other words, taking care of the young. Well, those 546 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: are two pleasurable experiences just for humans, sure, And they 547 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: did not find any evidence of nestmates reacting to the wagging, 548 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: so they couldn't detect any role for communication in the wagging. 549 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: So what's it for. Well, the author's hypothesized that quote 550 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: this in nest behavior might be analogous to facial expressions 551 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: and bodily postures of hedonic pleasure in humans and other 552 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: mammals during pleasurable events. So that's a very interesting idea. 553 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: Perhaps a fire ant smiles by wagging its gaster in 554 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: the air. Now, we should definitely acknowledge, and the researchers 555 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: do acknowledge that this is far from proven. That there 556 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: are a few other possibilities to Maybe the wagging is 557 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: some kind of mechanical reaction in the body to certain 558 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: uses of the mouth parts, so that the mouth parts 559 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: would be engaged during eating or during tending to the brood. 560 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: Maybe something's happening that just happens to make their butt 561 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: wiggle in the air at the same time. So it 562 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: would help if this could be paired with other types 563 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: of tests. For example, would consuming sugar water or tending 564 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: to the brood also cause the fire ants to have 565 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: an optimistic bias in judgment bias tests? That would probably 566 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: strengthen the case for this wagging as a bodily expression 567 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: of something like pleasure or happiness. But I love the possibility. 568 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: Maybe the ant smiles with its But but again, this 569 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: would this would come down to a It's some physical 570 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: body language that is observable that would potentially demonstrate the 571 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: emotional state of the creature, right, and it would helpful 572 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: if you could pare it with other things that were 573 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: presumed to be associated with that same state. Now, another 574 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: one about positive emotions comes back to bumble bees, which 575 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: we mentioned in the last episode. Remember earlier there was 576 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: this research seeming to indicate the giving a bumblebee some 577 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,239 Speaker 1: free sugar would result in an optimistic bias in these 578 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: cognitive tests. Another test on bumblebees looked at the effects 579 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: of sugar water on behavior after a stressful event. So, 580 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,719 Speaker 1: in the wild, bumblebees are subject to ambushes by certain 581 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: sit and wait predators, such as the crab spider. Have 582 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: you ever seen a crab spider in action? I'm not well. 583 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: So they will tend to wait on a flower, uh, 584 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: and they'll just kind of blend in there among the 585 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: petals that they've got these wide legs, uh for a 586 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: big hug. And then when the bee lands on the 587 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: flower to try to get some nectar, the crab spider 588 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: will grab it with its legs and try to bite 589 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: down and kill it. And a lot of times in 590 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: natural encounters, the bee is briefly captured by the spider, 591 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: but then manages to escape. So, in a twenty sixteen experiment, 592 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: Perry at All created a simulation of a crab spider 593 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: attack by putting together a mechanism that would ambush and 594 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: trap a bumblebee for three seconds before releasing it unharmed. Now, obviously, 595 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: after a stressful brush with death like this, the bee 596 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: will take some time before it again begins to forage 597 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: and start landing on flowers and stuff. And what Perry 598 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: at All found was that a treat of sugar water 599 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: given before the attack would shorten the duration of this 600 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: cool down period after the spider attack. So if a 601 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: bee gets a sweet treat before a simulated spider attack, 602 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: it takes the bee less time to reinitiate landing on 603 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: flowers and feeding after this stressful event. Now, again, there 604 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: could be other interpretations of what's happening here. Maybe somehow 605 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: the nutrition and the sugar makes the bee physically stronger 606 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: and less vulnerable, etcetera. And maybe something like that. But 607 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: one possibility is the the pleasurable stimuli of the sugar 608 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: water puts the bee in something analogous to a better 609 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: mood or emotional state, making it more resilient to stressful setbacks, 610 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: which I think is something that we're probably all familiar 611 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: with ourselves. Right, you know that your emotional state is 612 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: uh dictate strongly how you will react to negative incoming events, right, Right, 613 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: The same thing that floors you one day, I'll just 614 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: kind of bounce off you another right, right, Or if 615 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: you've had a particularly bad day, then bad news is 616 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: going to you know, have a more negative effect on 617 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: your well being right now. The authors identify vocalizations and 618 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: sound as a possibly very fruitful behavioral avenue for future 619 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: research and invertebrate emotions, noting that Charles Starwin himself speculated 620 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy two that quote, insects might potentially communicate 621 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: emotions such as anger, terror, jealousy, and love through their stridulation, 622 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: you know, the great rubbing together sounds that insects make. 623 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: So what does a jealous cricket sound like? I'm not sure, 624 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 1: but it's easy to imagine all the various anthropomorphic interpretations. 625 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: So regarding our our ideal cartoon cricket, I'm sure. Do 626 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,959 Speaker 1: you even remember how in the original Pinocchio, Pinocchio kills 627 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: the cricket with a hammer? What? Yeah, the cartoon or 628 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 1: no story? Not? No, no, not in the movie the 629 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: movie changed it made it nicer in the original story. 630 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: Jimmy cricket, Yeah, oh man, I don't remember if he's 631 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,720 Speaker 1: named Jiminy cricket. I think he's just a magic cricket 632 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: and Pinocchio kills him with a hammer. I didn't even 633 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: know that Pinocchio is in one of his bad phases. Uh. 634 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think I like Pinocchio. I don't 635 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: have a lot. I don't have a strong affinity for 636 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: the Disney version either. The only thing that I have 637 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: a strong affinity for is Jimmy crickets role in the 638 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: Mickey Christmas Carol, in which he plays what the ghost 639 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: of Christmas past? I believe, I don't. I don't know 640 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: if I ever seen that. You should see. It's like 641 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: thirty minutes long, and it's it's a pretty good, streamlined 642 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: adaptation of Chris was Carroll. I'm sure it's better than 643 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: the other thirty minute version of a Christmas Carol I've seen, 644 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: which is called the Christmas Carol and it's narrated by 645 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: Vincent Price. It's very bad. Man. Well, later this year, 646 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: when Christmas frows around again, I think we should do 647 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: an episode on a Christmas Carol. I think there's a 648 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: lot to discussed there. Okay, well, maybe we should take 649 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: a break and then when we come back we can 650 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: talk about physiological tests than Alright, we're back. So we're 651 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: entering the final phase here. We're going to be discussing 652 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: physiological tests for emotion. Right, so we've talked about cognitive tests, 653 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: we've talked about behavioral tests. Physiological tests for emotion uh 654 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: in people, they look for correl It's between reported emotional 655 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: states and automatic responses in the body. So, for example, 656 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: somebody jumps out at you with a werewolf mask. You're 657 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: not just gonna jump back. It's not just gonna maybe 658 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: give you a pessimistic bias. But you will also have 659 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 1: increased heart rate, release of stress hormones like nora ep 660 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: and effer and and cortisol, dilation of the pupils in 661 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: the eye. You might be a bit you know, by 662 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: just stuff. I know a lot of this is because 663 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: it's not just that you saw a werewolf. It's that 664 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: your body is preparing you to fight a werewolf or 665 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: run from a werewolf. Right, The fight or flight response 666 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: kicks in and and it entails this cascade of automatic 667 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 1: reactions in the body, things that you don't control behaviorally. 668 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: They just happen without your say so. And these physiological 669 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: responses can usually be measured objectively pretty easily, which is 670 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: very handy. However, physiological responses alone can be They can 671 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: be hard to use to identify individual emotions. For example, 672 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,240 Speaker 1: if you're measuring a heart rate, heart rate might increase 673 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: in response to anxiety or to joy. The fact that 674 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: the heart speeds up it's beating tells you there's some 675 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: kind of arousal, but it doesn't necessarily tell you which one. 676 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: The person's heart could just be full of song, right. 677 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: So sometimes if you look at enough different physiological responses 678 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: at the same time and compare them, you can start 679 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: to zero in on specific emotions, but not always. And 680 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: just like it's to translate research on human facial expressions 681 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: to invertebrates, it's also hard to do so with human 682 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: physiological responses to emotions. Uh. The authors write, quote, most 683 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: of these types of measurements are quite difficult to apply 684 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: to invertebrates given their often miniature size and hard carapaces, and, 685 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: in the case of insects, an open circulatory system where 686 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: heart rate is not increased. But there has been some 687 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: interesting research. Nonetheless, they cite a bunch of it just 688 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: to pick out a couple of examples. Keita at all. 689 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: In two thousand eleven did research on fear conditioning, this 690 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: time in pond snails, very expressive species. Uh. They condition 691 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,879 Speaker 1: the pond snails with an association between sugar water, which 692 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: normally you give some give some sugar water to them 693 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: and they will start feeding behaviors. But they negatively conditioned 694 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: this with potassium chloride associations, and potassium chloride causes withdrawal 695 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: of the body into the shell. Uh. Not only did 696 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: fear conditioning work the snails began to react to the 697 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: sugar by withdrawing, but physiological monitoring also found that conditioned 698 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: exposure to the sugar caused the heart to skip a 699 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: beat quote, suggesting physiological responses similar to fear in mammals. 700 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: So you train them to associate potassium chloride, this noxious chemical, 701 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: with the sugar, then later you just present them with sugar. 702 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: Not only do they not go for the sugar, it 703 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: makes their hearts skip a beat. Though. I do think 704 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting to know potassium chloride is literally a heart 705 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: stopping poison. It's been used to cause cardiac arrest and 706 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: lethal injections. Of course, there was no potassium chloride in 707 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: the sugar once it was conditioned, but maybe that's just 708 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: a coincidence. But the idea is that been presented with 709 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: the with the sugar, then after being exposed to the 710 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: potassium chloride, there is this this moment of physiological fear 711 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: in response, right, the body reacts in a way similar 712 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,399 Speaker 1: to mammals reacting to the werewolf mask, but this time 713 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: it's just sugar that the snail has come with training 714 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: to associate with a bad chemical. Uh So, it seems 715 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: that the majority of research on physiological correlates of invertebrate 716 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: emotions has to do with the presence of what are 717 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: called biogenic amines, which are thought to play a major, 718 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: if not comprehensive role in the creation and control of 719 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: emotions in the human brain, especially the hormones and neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, 720 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: and nora adrenaline. Now, as important as these three substances 721 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: clearly are in our emotional lives, unfortunately it is not 722 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: as simple as saying one is a happiness drug in 723 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: the body and one is a fear drug, etcetera. They 724 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: play complex interacting roles in everything from attention and arousal 725 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: to reward, motivation and sleep, and the manipulation of emotions 726 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: is generally not as simple as just saying like, well, 727 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: you need more of one of these things, but manipulating 728 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: the presence of one or more of these neurotransmitters can 729 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,280 Speaker 1: have some measurable effects on emotion. For example, invertebrate nervous 730 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: systems also appear to make use of these biogenic amines 731 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,280 Speaker 1: or analogs to them. For example, in bees, the hormone 732 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: octopomy and appears to play a role similar to that 733 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 1: of nora adrenaline and humans. And so they cite one 734 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: possible example of these physiological parallels quote Bates and and 735 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: colleagues in two thousand eleven assessed how systemic biogenic amine 736 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: levels changed in response to a presumed negative emotional event 737 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: hemal lymph. And remember that's like insect blood. Hamal Lymph 738 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: was collected from honey bees after simulating a predator attack 739 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: shaking bees on a vortex for sixty seconds. And this 740 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,240 Speaker 1: is like the thing we talked about in the last episode, 741 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: where you'd shake the colony to simulate an attacked by 742 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: a honey badger. Picking up with the quote, analysis of 743 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: the hemolymph using high performance liquid chromatography or HPLC showed 744 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: that systemic levels of the biogenic amines dopamine, octopamine che 745 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: chemically similar to noor adrenaline, and so tone in all 746 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: decreased in response to bees being shaken vigorously. In humans, 747 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: it seems that depletion of biogenic amine serotonin, noor adrenaline, 748 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,360 Speaker 1: and dopamine is responsible for features of depression in the 749 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: monamine Hypothesis of depression and also inteen Faucet and colleagues 750 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: reportedly used chemical manipulation of serotonin levels to alter anxiety 751 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: associated behaviors of crayfish, like in the plus maze scenario. 752 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: One last one period All in TwixT found that manipulation 753 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: of dopamine levels seemed to affect the apparent positive emotional 754 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,240 Speaker 1: state of bumble bees. Remember the sugar causing the bumble 755 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: bees to have an optimistic bias. Well here quote the 756 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: optimistic behavior scene and the judgment bias test in response 757 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:51,399 Speaker 1: to pretest sugar reward was abolished when the bees were 758 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:56,800 Speaker 1: topically treated with the dopamine receptor antagonist flu finazine, and 759 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: apparently the same treatment eliminated the positive effect of retest 760 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: sugar during the simulated attack by a crab spider. So 761 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 1: if you do something to this insect's dopamine levels. By 762 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 1: by putting in this disruptor of dopamine, you somehow seem 763 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: to interfere with the bees ability to have an optimistic 764 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: bias in response to getting some sugar. Interesting. So, basically, 765 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: the more we reveal about sort of the underlying chemistry 766 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: of these emotional states um as as they are in 767 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: humans and as they are in these various invertebrate species, 768 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: it just reveals that, yeah, we have emotional states occurring 769 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,279 Speaker 1: in these organisms, at least the physiological corelates of them. 770 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 1: Right Again, Yeah, we can't begin to get into the 771 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: subjective aspect of it, which you know, made very I 772 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 1: don't think it's a stretch at all to say that 773 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: whatever a crawfish is experiencing is fear, is different than 774 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 1: what a humans experienced in his fear. It can't it 775 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: can't contemplate the fear at the same level that that 776 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 1: a human can. But like the root of it, like 777 00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: the root chemical and physic, physiological, um manifestation of that 778 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:05,239 Speaker 1: emotion is essentially the same. Right. And I think now 779 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 1: we've seen maybe not conclusive, but pretty good evidence in 780 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 1: three different branches, not just the physiological which we were 781 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: just talking about but earlier the cognitive and in the 782 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: behavioral spheres. And I think we should emphasize again, you 783 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: know what you're getting at. None of these tests are perfect. 784 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,359 Speaker 1: Even if all the results are robust, replicable, they hold 785 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: up over time, they still don't necessarily tell us anything 786 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: about what it's like to be a bumblebee or a crayfish. 787 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: I think there's always going to be that gap that 788 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: we are perhaps jumping with the rocket boots of anthropomorphic projection. 789 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: But for now, experiments like these are the best evidence 790 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: we have to try to figure out what kinds of emotions, 791 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: if any, are present in insects, crustaceans, gastropods, and all 792 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: manner of creatures without a spine. And those things we 793 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 1: learned could be very helpful in helping us understand how 794 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,839 Speaker 1: emotions in mammals, including humans, developed over evolutionary time, because there, 795 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,439 Speaker 1: you know, we we look at modern invertebrates and see 796 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: nervous systems. You know that their brain structure is very 797 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: similar to what we think our ancestors may have had 798 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: at certain times in history. We can learn what the 799 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 1: chemical mechanisms of emotional motivation states are how they came 800 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: to be humans ain't crawd ads, but crawd ads can 801 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,479 Speaker 1: still teach us a lot. I think now at this point, 802 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,359 Speaker 1: I bet one question a lot of people may have is, Okay, well, 803 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 1: what sorts of animals don't have emotions? Then? Like, is 804 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: there is there any level that we can say, all right, 805 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: here's the cut off point? Um. You know, it's it's 806 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,800 Speaker 1: an interesting question to consider. UM. And I was poking 807 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: around and basically one thing I have to realize is 808 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: that is, like we said earlier, the quest for invertebrate 809 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 1: emotions is is not as expansive as as other areas 810 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 1: of emotional research, certainly in higher organisms. So there's just 811 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 1: a lot of data we don't have. UM. So you know, 812 00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:57,840 Speaker 1: I don't know when you get down to like single 813 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: cell organisms, I don't see. I didn't find any papers 814 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,320 Speaker 1: arguing for emotional states there no, uh. And even in 815 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 1: weirdly like we think octopuses are more complex, uh, you know, 816 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: in terms of intelligence than these other than like insects 817 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: and crayfish are. But I wasn't really finding much in 818 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: the way of studying emotions and octopuses. It was mostly 819 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: in these simpler organisms. So yeah, there's clearly still lots 820 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: of ground to cover. Yeah, now, I mean, you know, 821 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: it's one of the I don't think anybody's actually arguing that, say, 822 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: a slime mold has emotions either. But we have discussed 823 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: in the show how a slime mold, uh, an organism 824 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: without like a central nervous system, is still able to learn, 825 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 1: it's still engaging in things that are are are like 826 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: problem solving. So you know, the stuff like that adds 827 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 1: uh some complexity to this question. But then another thing 828 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,800 Speaker 1: we came to mind, uh plants the topic itself. I 829 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: think we'll have to wait wait for another episode, but 830 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: plants can essentially here, see, smell, and respond to stimuli, 831 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,800 Speaker 1: and they are, according to a University of Missouri in 832 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: Columbia plant science professor Jack C. Schultz, essentially quote just 833 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:14,239 Speaker 1: very slow animals um which uh, which I think it is. 834 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: It is hilarious. But at the same time it you know, 835 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: you you you look at say time time lapse footage 836 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: of save vines in action and flowers and uh and 837 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,480 Speaker 1: so forth. They're just the movements of of of plants 838 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: in general. And this does have that seem to have 839 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: a ring of truth to it that this is this 840 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,480 Speaker 1: is an organism that is not as still as we 841 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,240 Speaker 1: uh as we may think. We touched the this briefly 842 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,960 Speaker 1: and the recent Tolkien episodes, you know, the the idea 843 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,800 Speaker 1: of the end, the moving tree, the tree that thinks 844 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: and reasons, um may not be as far fetched as 845 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,920 Speaker 1: as some of us think. But as for emotions and plants, uh, 846 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: there's actually some fascinating research there as well. But that 847 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: is another story and shall be told another time time. Okay, 848 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: So hopefully we give everybody some food for thought here 849 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,839 Speaker 1: about our own emotional states, what the human emotional state 850 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,840 Speaker 1: is and what it isn't and then to what degree 851 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: we can perceive and attribute emotional states to other organisms, 852 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: even though you know, the the lowly crawfish. I mean, 853 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: I wonder if understanding the way that that anxiety might 854 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,839 Speaker 1: affect bees or crawfish or something like that could in wait, 855 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: help give you a foothold in controlling your own emotions. 856 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,759 Speaker 1: I mean again, this is something we we sort of 857 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:38,279 Speaker 1: began the last episode talking about how the emotions are 858 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 1: from our brains. They are within us, but often it 859 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,239 Speaker 1: can feel as if we are in them, you know, 860 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 1: there see, on which we're aflow and we have no 861 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,719 Speaker 1: power over them, right, or their external forces like something 862 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,520 Speaker 1: from out of Greek mythology, or you know, some sort 863 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 1: of you know, a fundamentalist um you know, Christian worldview, 864 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,920 Speaker 1: angel on one shoulder, devil on the other, affecting our 865 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 1: mental states. But no, it's it's all within and it 866 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 1: is and it is you know, a part of the 867 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: same navigation, a reality that is taking place in all 868 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 1: these other organisms as well. And yeah, therefore if we 869 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: demystify it a bit, if we sort of take a 870 00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,400 Speaker 1: step back from it and in fact increase awareness of 871 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,759 Speaker 1: what it is, then yeah, that gives us, I think, 872 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,440 Speaker 1: a tremendous strength. You know, it keeps basically keeping uh, 873 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: keeping our our our irksome brains from deceiving ourselves about 874 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,399 Speaker 1: what we are. You are that churning ocean, Yes, which 875 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: perhaps is some ambiguous information that you may either see 876 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,120 Speaker 1: in a negative or a positive light, depending on your predisposition. 877 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,360 Speaker 1: All right, so obviously you all have emotions, and you 878 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,919 Speaker 1: all have various interactions with animals, be it a dog, 879 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,359 Speaker 1: a cattle, horse, or a crayfish or or or a bee. 880 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:52,919 Speaker 1: So we would love to hear from everyone out there 881 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,800 Speaker 1: on the topic that we've discussed in these two episodes 882 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,080 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Hey, even if you 883 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 1: have some thoughts about plants, go ahead and go ahead 884 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,840 Speaker 1: and let us know about those. Uh. In the meantime, 885 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,439 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 886 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,799 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, where can you find this show? Well, 887 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,360 Speaker 1: you can find this show anywhere you find podcasts, wherever 888 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,760 Speaker 1: that happens to be. Just make sure you rate, review, 889 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 1: and subscribe. Those are the acts that help us out 890 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,839 Speaker 1: huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 891 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,200 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 892 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 893 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hi, 894 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,600 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact dot stuff to Blow 895 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 896 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 897 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 898 00:50:44,480 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 1: wherever you listening to your favorite shows. I Pass has 899 00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 1: a fad backed by a part