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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: The reflecting Pool at the Lincoln Memorial is one of

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Speaker 1: the most iconic spots in DC, and now it's become

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Speaker 1: another target of President Trump's attempts to remake some of

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Speaker 1: the Capital's historic landmarks. He's repainted the reflecting pool in

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Speaker 1: a shade of blue called American Flag blue.

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Speaker 2: And over the years as a developer, I have probably

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Speaker 2: built more than one hundred swimming pools.

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Speaker 1: A nonprofit filed a lawsuit on Monday to stop Trump

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Speaker 1: from altering the Lincoln Memorial without the consultations, environmental assessments,

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Speaker 1: and public comment required before altering a registered historic landmark.

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Speaker 1: It follows the pattern of Trump's other renovations, like tearing

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Speaker 1: down the East Wing to build a ballroom or closing

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Speaker 1: the Kennedy Center for two years, for renovation projects that

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Speaker 1: have drawn lawsuits from historical societies and nonprofits for similar reasons.

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Speaker 1: My guest is former federal prosecutor Nima Romani, president of

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Speaker 1: West Coast Trial Lawyers. Nima tell us what the Cultural

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Speaker 1: Landscape Foundation is arguing in its lawsuit. Nima tell us

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Speaker 1: what the Cultural Landscape Foundation is arguing in its lawsuit.

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Speaker 2: The lawsuit is alleging that the Trump administration didn't comply

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Speaker 2: with federal laws, specifically procedural law related to historic monuments

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Speaker 2: and environmental analyzes. This is similar to the Administrative Procedure

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Speaker 2: Act arguments that many other plaintiffs have been using to

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Speaker 2: slow down the Trump administration. Now, those laws essentially say

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Speaker 2: that when a monument is altered in any way, there

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Speaker 2: has to be the opportunity for public comment, consultation with

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Speaker 2: other federal agencies, assessment of environmental impacts. And again this

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Speaker 2: is all procedural. It doesn't mean that the administration has

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Speaker 2: to listen to any of this feedback. They can move ahead,

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Speaker 2: but it can slow down this process, which is what

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Speaker 2: the plaintiffs are trying to do. Because Congress, who would

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Speaker 2: probably be the best plainiff, is not stepping in because

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Speaker 2: obviously both houses are controlled by Republicans.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, the Trump administration is well aware of

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Speaker 1: these requirements because they're being sued in other cases so

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Speaker 1: ignoring similar requirements. So it's not as if they're not

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Speaker 1: aware of it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, there's no question.

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Speaker 2: And this really raises the fundamental constitutional issue. What happens

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Speaker 2: if the executive branch that is tasked with enforcing the

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Speaker 2: law doesn't follow the law, who's going to compel.

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Speaker 3: Them to do so?

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Speaker 2: Now, obviously, you know, an Article three judge can step

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Speaker 2: in and issue some sort of order and injunction and

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Speaker 2: hopefully there is compliance with that. But yeah, this is

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Speaker 2: a persistent problem by this administration. I mean, there are

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Speaker 2: these laws in the books and they don't necessarily think

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Speaker 2: that it applies to them. And in this particular case

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Speaker 2: with the reflecting pool, the President is trying to get

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Speaker 2: this done before the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of

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Speaker 2: our nation in just a couple months, so we're really

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Speaker 2: short on time, and that's why he's paying this company

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Speaker 2: a significant sum of money to get it done so quickly.

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Speaker 1: So the government awarded the firm a no bid contract

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Speaker 1: last month, and it's a firm that had worked on

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Speaker 1: swimming pools at his golf club in Virginia. So they're

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Speaker 1: bypassing the requirement to seek competing offers.

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Speaker 2: It is, and the administration is saying that there's a

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Speaker 2: timing issue and that's why they're doing it. They have

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Speaker 2: to get this done and that's why they're paying so much.

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Speaker 2: You know, From the Trump administration's perspective, the way they're

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Speaker 2: phrasing this for the litigation is that this is just

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Speaker 2: a necessary repair. This isn't an alteration because the executive

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Speaker 2: in their mandate to maintain these properties. Obviously they can

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Speaker 2: repair monuments, right, and there's certain areas of the law

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Speaker 2: where the executive has much more discretion, obviously national security issues.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure we're going to talk about that when we

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Speaker 2: get to the ballroom. The other is routine maintenance and repair.

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Speaker 2: So you see the plaintiffs in these cases arguing that

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Speaker 2: any of these it could be the reflecting pool, it

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Speaker 2: can be the Kennedy Center of the White House, that

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Speaker 2: these are fundamental changes and alterations that would require approval

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Speaker 2: of Congress or others potentially, not just routine repairs. And

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Speaker 2: of course the government is arguing in their papers that

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Speaker 2: this is just a repair in the case of the

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Speaker 2: reflecting pool, that there are cracks, there's allergy, and that

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Speaker 2: this isn't a fundamentally different paint job changing the monument.

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Speaker 2: It's simply just a repair in preparation for this big celebration.

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Speaker 1: And what do you think of their argument that the

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Speaker 1: urgency is the country's two hundred and fiftieth anniversary, and

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Speaker 1: that warrants an exemption from the law's procedural requirements.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's a particularly good argument, because the

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Speaker 2: President himself has come out and said that he wants

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Speaker 2: to paint an American blue, So, you know, it seems

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Speaker 2: like he backtracked a little bit from that statement, but

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Speaker 2: it seems like it's an aesthetic change, and a significant

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Speaker 2: one at that.

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Speaker 3: So obviously, time is.

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Speaker 2: An issue, and we know that some of these government

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Speaker 2: contracts can take some time. In the case of the

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Speaker 2: Kennedy Center, we're talking about two years. This has to

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Speaker 2: happen in two months, So that's something that I think

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Speaker 2: should be taken into consideration. But if it's a fundamental change,

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Speaker 2: and this is something that is really within Congress's authority

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Speaker 2: and they haven't delegated this to the executive, then we

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Speaker 2: also have the separation of powers issue here.

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Speaker 1: Talking about the Kennedy Center, which was great by Congress

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Speaker 1: as a living memorial to President Kennedy after his assassination.

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Speaker 1: So the closure is supposed to be for renovation, but

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Speaker 1: the plaintiffs who are suing are also worried that the

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Speaker 1: renovation will actually end up in a demolition like the

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Speaker 1: East Wing. Is it the same issues or is it

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Speaker 1: different with the Kennedy Center.

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Speaker 3: It's similar issues.

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Speaker 2: The Kennedy Center is slightly different in terms of how

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Speaker 2: it's structured. It does get its authority from Congress, but

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Speaker 2: it's essentially a nonprofit with a board, and there's some

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Speaker 2: board issues. There's labor issues as well, if you're shutting

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Speaker 2: something down, and there's you know, government employees that are

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Speaker 2: going to be essentially let go. So it's a little

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Speaker 2: bit more complicated than the Reflecting Pool, but it does

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Speaker 2: raise the same issues. So you see again in their

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Speaker 2: filing papers, the Department of Justice, which is representing the

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Speaker 2: government in this case, saying that, look, these are necessary

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Speaker 2: repairs because the Kennedy Center was falling apart. There's cracks,

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Speaker 2: you know, the ceiling was going to collapse. This is

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Speaker 2: dangerous and judges are going to be obviously a lot

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Speaker 2: more liberal when it comes to the government making repairs

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Speaker 2: necessary repairs if it's a safety issue. And I think

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Speaker 2: a little bit different the Reflecting Pool extent that the

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Speaker 2: repairs were made. I don't think anyone was arguing that

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Speaker 2: it was for safety, but I think in the Kennedy Center.

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Speaker 2: And again that case is going to come down to

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Speaker 2: is this an aesthetic redesign, a fundamental you know, alteration

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Speaker 2: of this historic building, or is it just necessary repairs

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Speaker 2: because attendees, you know, could get hurt, and obviously we

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Speaker 2: know if they get hurt and the government can.

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Speaker 3: Be sued in the Federal Toward Claims Act.

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Speaker 2: So I think that's the biggest issue in the case

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Speaker 2: and where the judges in those cases fall.

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Speaker 3: I think it's going to determine who wins.

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Speaker 1: He already renamed the center after himself, and he has

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Speaker 1: this you know, this board hand pick board that just

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Speaker 1: rubber stamps whatever he wants to do. In all these cases,

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Speaker 1: it seems like there's no analysis done whatsoever. There's no

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Speaker 1: consultation with any agency or historic group. It's just Trump saying,

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Speaker 1: let's do it.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 2: I mean, no question if you look at the executive

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Speaker 2: branch just across the board, I mean, trump monson loyalists.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't matter if it's the DOJ or you know, FDA

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Speaker 2: or the Kennedy Center board. One of the arguments is,

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Speaker 2: of course, the Trump renaming the Kennedy Center the Trump

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Speaker 2: Kennedy Center is a fundamental change. So you see in

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Speaker 2: their papers the government arguing that, you know, things are

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Speaker 2: going to be the same, right that the bust of

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Speaker 2: John F. Kennedy will remain, the quotes on the walls

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Speaker 2: will remain. So they're trying to now potentially either backtrack

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Speaker 2: or argue to the court that the changes are for

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Speaker 2: repair purposes only. The design of the center will not change. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: the devil is in the details here, So it's going

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Speaker 2: to be interesting to see. Clearly, if it's a demolition,

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Speaker 2: I think the plainiffs are going to win. If it's

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Speaker 2: something less than that, then we're going to see how

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Speaker 2: the judge rules on it.

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Speaker 1: Stay with me. Nima coming up next. The Justice Department

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Speaker 1: raises Trump derangement syndrome in one of its filings. In

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Speaker 1: the ballroom case, I'm June Grosso and this is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: We're building one of the great I think maybe the

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Speaker 1: greatest ballroom.

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Speaker 3: We needed it for one hundred and fifty years. They've

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Speaker 3: been asking. You see that the.

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Speaker 2: Trucks and cranes and excavators in the background, and you

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Speaker 2: hear them, and every time I hear.

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Speaker 3: Them, I love the sound.

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Speaker 1: Trump may have loved the sound of the East wing

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Speaker 1: being excavated for his ballroom, but he's in the minority.

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Speaker 1: According to a Washington Post poll, it found that fifty

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Speaker 1: six percent of Americans opposed the ballroom and only twenty

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Speaker 1: eight percent support it. When Trump first announced his plans

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Speaker 1: to build a ballroom at the White House at the

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Speaker 1: end of lie he said construction would not impact the

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Speaker 1: existing structure, did.

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Speaker 3: Won't interfere with the current building. I won't be It'll be.

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Speaker 2: Near it, but not touching it, and pays total respect

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Speaker 2: to the existing building, which I'm the biggest fan of.

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Speaker 1: He might have been a fan, but three months later

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Speaker 1: he demolished the entire East wing of the White House,

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Speaker 1: which was built more than a century ago. Trump originally

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Speaker 1: said the ballroom would cost two hundred to four hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollars and be paid for by private donations. Now

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Speaker 1: the cost has ballooned to one billion dollars to be

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Speaker 1: paid for by taxpayers, and the administration is now trying

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Speaker 1: to use the shooting incident outside of the White House

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Speaker 1: correspondence dinner as demonstrating that a new White House ballroom

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Speaker 1: is essential for national security.

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Speaker 3: Saturday night, it was good for one thing. People are

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Speaker 3: loving my ballroom. Now that's the only one. I love

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Speaker 3: my ballroom.

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Speaker 1: The administration is currently appealing or ruling by DC Judge

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Speaker 1: Richard leon who found that Trump didn't have authority to

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Speaker 1: tear down the East Wing and build a new structure

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Speaker 1: on White House grounds. I've been talking to former federal

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Speaker 1: prosecutor Nima Romani. Lawsuits were eventually filed to stop the construction.

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Speaker 1: Tell us some of the issues.

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Speaker 2: Here, and so the ballroom raises a few issues. The

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Speaker 2: first is the appropriation right. Congress hasn't appropriated funds for

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Speaker 2: the ballroom. So you see the executive branch trying to

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Speaker 2: move funds related to the Secret Service, for instance, saying

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Speaker 2: that this is a security issue. Obviously the Cole Allen

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Speaker 2: case and the White House Correspondent Center is now being

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Speaker 2: used for that purpose. But you know, again, is this

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Speaker 2: a repair the executive branch can do it? Is this

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Speaker 2: a security issue for the president? Again, that is something

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Speaker 2: that is within the authority of the executive branch. Is

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Speaker 2: this building a ballroom in a way that has not

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Speaker 2: been authorized by Congress with funds that have not been

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Speaker 2: appropriated by Congress, Then in that case, the executive branch loses.

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Speaker 3: So what you're seeing.

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Speaker 2: Now is the government and the DGA is trying to

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Speaker 2: couch this argument that this is a security project, this

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Speaker 2: is not something that is for other purposes. And you

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Speaker 2: even see senators sort of catching on right in terms

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Speaker 2: of coordinating and others that want this project to move forward.

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Speaker 2: They are now trying to again fit the facts of

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Speaker 2: the case in the ballroom construction, demolition of the East

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Speaker 2: Wing into this sort of national security protecting the president

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Speaker 2: type box.

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Speaker 3: So it's interesting to see how that particular judge rules.

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Speaker 1: On it when they're using the correspondence dientner and what

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Speaker 1: happened there. That's not the kind of event that would

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Speaker 1: be held at the White House. That's a private event.

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Speaker 1: So I don't even see the correlation.

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Speaker 2: In talking points immediately after the shooting that this is

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Speaker 2: why we need the presidential Walter, But you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: The White House Correspondence Center is a private event. It's

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Speaker 2: held at the Washington Hilton, one of the few venues

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Speaker 2: in Washington, DC that can accommodate a crowd of two

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Speaker 2: thousand or more people. I mean, obviously famously where Ronald

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Speaker 2: Reagan was also shot. The ballroom is for a different

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Speaker 2: purpose altogether. It's to host heads of state. It's not

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Speaker 2: like the White House Correspondence can call and rent it

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Speaker 2: or any other private organization or group, so it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily solve the problem.

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Speaker 3: But of course, you know, politically.

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Speaker 2: It makes for a great talking point, so you see

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Speaker 2: it parroted by a lot of talking heads.

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Speaker 1: Let's discuss this motion by the government asking Federal Judge

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Speaker 1: Leon to dissolve his own ruling against the Ballroom project

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Speaker 1: in light of the attempt to attack at the White

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Speaker 1: House Correspondent's dinner. This was a very unusual filing in

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Speaker 1: so many respects, including that it talked about Trump derangement syndrome.

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Speaker 3: You can see people the DOJ.

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Speaker 2: They are jocking for position to appiece of their boss,

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Speaker 2: the President of the United States, the way Acting Attorney

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Speaker 2: General Todd blanche has handled the Comy case, for instance,

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Speaker 2: right eighty six forty seven. I don't think that's a

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Speaker 2: meritorious case at all, and I think most former DOJ.

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Speaker 3: Lawyers would agree.

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Speaker 2: But I think that's probably something that was done because

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump dislikes Comy, and I understand why he dislikes Comy,

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Speaker 2: and I understand why Democrats dislike Comy A lot of

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Speaker 2: people dislike Holly, But if you want to prosecute and

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Speaker 2: prosecute him for what he actually did, which is leak

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Speaker 2: information allegedly to the Wall Street Journal and compromise their

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Speaker 2: national security and involve themselves in elections, you know they're

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Speaker 2: prosecuting for Instagram posts.

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Speaker 3: But I digress.

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Speaker 2: Now you have another DOJ official, high level who's filing

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Speaker 2: emotion which reads likely was written by Donald Trump on

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Speaker 2: truth Social It was bizarre, something I had never seen

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Speaker 2: to talk about Trump derangement syndrome. It's writing in caps.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was really surreal. And when I talk

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Speaker 2: about legal cases, you know, and I do a lot

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Speaker 2: of TV, I alwauls say this is unprecedented, but this

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Speaker 2: one was even for me.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I was just blown away.

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Speaker 2: But it was clearly something that was an attempt, in

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Speaker 2: my opinion, to pander to the president as opposed to

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Speaker 2: arguing the.

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Speaker 3: Facts and the law.

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Speaker 1: And it was signed by three political appointees. No career

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Speaker 1: attorneys signed that. I guess I didn't want their name

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Speaker 1: on that. So tell us about Judge Leon's ruling and

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Speaker 1: the appeal.

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Speaker 2: And so the judge issued an order putting the demolition

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Speaker 2: and the construction on hold. But that order was stayed,

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Speaker 2: which means put on in a legal sense, while it

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Speaker 2: went up on appeal. So it allowed the construction to

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Speaker 2: move forward while the DC Circuit Court of Appeals here's

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Speaker 2: this issue. So once that appeal is filed, then there's

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Speaker 2: nothing really the district Court can do. And what the

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Speaker 2: DJ did after col Allen is under a very specific

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Speaker 2: procedural rule, ask the judge to rule essentially when the

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Speaker 2: case comes back from appeal and find that this is

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Speaker 2: now a national security issue and therefore the construction should

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Speaker 2: move forward on that basis.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Judge Leon found that Trump didn't have the

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Speaker 1: authority to tear down the East Wing and build this

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Speaker 1: new structure. Why wouldn't the appeals court leave that in

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Speaker 1: place so that the status quo can remain while it's

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Speaker 1: being appealed. Now the construction's going ahead.

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Speaker 2: I agree, And the problem is this, it's one thing

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Speaker 2: that stop construction or stop painting or or.

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Speaker 3: Renovations once it's done.

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Speaker 2: I don't think a court is gonna tell the government

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Speaker 2: to tear it down. That's a very different kind of order.

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Speaker 2: So I agree, while this is all sorted out, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's a big issue is being litigated in multiple places,

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Speaker 2: may end up before the US Supreme Board.

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Speaker 3: I think the.

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Speaker 2: Prudent course of action, setting aside the centennial celebration and

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Speaker 2: all that, is to just issue the injunctions, keep things

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Speaker 2: as is, because again I don't see it being tore down.

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Speaker 2: And then that's part of the strategy. I'm sure what's

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Speaker 2: gonna happen with the reflecting pool. You know, Jud's gonna

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Speaker 2: say we got to paint it back, or you know,

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Speaker 2: the Kennedy Center. Once those renovations are being done, you

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Speaker 2: can't restore it. It doesn't make any sense legally or

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Speaker 2: you know, practically. So I think this is part and

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Speaker 2: parcel of the government strategy let's move forward, sort of

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Speaker 2: a ask for forgiveness than asking for permission type argument.

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Speaker 1: Well, he paved over the Rose Garden before anyone could

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Speaker 1: even turn around, it was paved over. So now the

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Speaker 1: other part of this is that Trump originally said it

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Speaker 1: would be two hundred to four hundred million dollars paid

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Speaker 1: for by private donations. Now it's a billion dollars paid

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Speaker 1: for by tax payers. And this is really according to

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Speaker 1: a Washington Post poll, and this is after the shooting

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Speaker 1: it's really unpopular with Americans. Opposed by fifty six percent,

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Speaker 1: supported by only twenty eight percent. So now the question

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Speaker 1: is politics, whether the House and the Senate are going

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Speaker 1: to give him what he wants.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think they will, you know, with the

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Speaker 2: exception of Epstein, and I think that's a very sort

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Speaker 2: of narrow and unique exception. I think members of Congress

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Speaker 2: have really sort of been locked up with the president.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if they necessarily agree with everything, but

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Speaker 2: he has an ironclad, really fist and control over the

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Speaker 2: Republican Party and any of the individuals except for like

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Speaker 2: a you know, Massy or someone like that that have

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Speaker 2: really stepped up against the president. They've been primary or

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Speaker 2: you know, because of his tremendous influence on social media,

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Speaker 2: they've really been forced to sort of step down and

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Speaker 2: retire and move away from politics. I mean, he's a

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Speaker 2: very powerful individual. When he focuses his attention on someone

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Speaker 2: that he deems disloyal, they're going to be out of

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Speaker 2: the job. If they're in the executive branch. The exception

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Speaker 2: of maybe like a Jerome Powell or some individuals who

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Speaker 2: have managed to keep their jobs, and if they're in Congress,

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Speaker 2: they're going to face a primary challenger with the President's support,

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Speaker 2: and there's a decent chance that that primary challenger will

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Speaker 2: be successful.

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Speaker 1: The Trump administration raises national security for just about every issue,

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Speaker 1: even the tariffs, national security. Explain why that's the argument

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Speaker 1: they always go for.

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Speaker 2: National security is the best argument because the courts, especially

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, has given the president very wide difference

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Speaker 2: when it comes to matters of national security. So for instance,

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Speaker 2: the Muslim band, you know, that's a perfect example of

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Speaker 2: something that was upheld on.

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Speaker 3: National security grands.

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Speaker 2: Courts are not inclined to second guests the executive. They

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Speaker 2: don't have all the information right that law enforcement has,

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Speaker 2: that State Department CIA. So when it comes to matters

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Speaker 2: of national security, if it's truly a bona fide national

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Speaker 2: security issue, courts are very.

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Speaker 3: Hesitant to get involved.

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Speaker 2: I mean could they How could a judge, for instance,

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Speaker 2: even though it's also widely unpopular, tell the president, you know,

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Speaker 2: to pull out of Iran and the straight up horn moves.

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Speaker 2: It's just not something that courts do. So as soon

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Speaker 2: as it falls into that bucket, it's essentially a win

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Speaker 2: for the executive branch, and the president can do what

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Speaker 2: he wants.

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Speaker 1: The Appellate Court is going to hear arguments in the

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Speaker 1: Ballroom case in June, but I'm not sure what the

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Speaker 1: remedy can be since the East Wing has been demolished already.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining me. Nima. That's former federal

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Speaker 1: prosecutor Nima Romani, and that's it for this edition of

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the

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Speaker 1: latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can

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Speaker 1: tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten

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