WEBVTT - George Wagner Takes the Stand Part II 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.280 His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:10.879 for it, which he says he never said. 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:16.320 His account of his relationship with Hannahmee Rodin and according 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.880 to George, they were very close and they were dear friends. Again, 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.479 is this just an attempt to show him as a 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.440 vulnerable human being or is this just a show? 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:31.920 I don't see how they could ever believe something like that, 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.680 because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christenior and their family would 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:36.880 never do anything to a child. 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:40.040 It now becomes a case of who do you believe? 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:48.159 Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial evidence for George. 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:54.520 Welcome to the Pipon Massacre Season four, Episode twenty two, 0:00:55.120 --> 0:01:00.000 George Wagner takes the stand Part two. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.640 a television producer at Kat's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.880 Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:11.000 pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.240 His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:19.039 pleaded not guilty to all charges. Last week, we left 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.600 off with George Wagner testifying about a physical altercation he 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.360 had with his father Billy. We pick up with a 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:29.600 continuation of George's testimony about the aftermath of the confrontation. 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.560 As the toxic environment at the Wagner home grew, Georg 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:35.640 said his father, Billy Wagner, moved out. 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.119 Explain his he stayed with my grandparents. 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:42.760 Yes, do you know why? 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.880 Multiple reasons. One he couldn't stand being around my mother anymore, 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.680 and to my grandfather was bedridden and couldn't. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:56.080 Gall abny So I understand who records his father was 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:58.400 spending a lot of time at the Flying. 0:01:58.240 --> 0:01:59.880 W helping with his father's care. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:00.480 Yes. 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.880 Also at the same time, what was the relationship between 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:06.280 him and the mom? 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.160 It basically went to they might as well just called 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:11.520 it friends after a divorce, even though they weren't divorced. 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.040 As his parents' marriage was falling apart, George began to 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.680 date Tabitha Clater. When their relationship ended, George said his 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:23.040 brother Jake's girlfriend, Hannah Mae Rodin, played matchmaker. She was 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.480 the one who got Tabitha and George back together. 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.000 Yeah, we've heard a lot about Jake and Hannah's relationship. 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:32.520 Describe your relationship with. 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.280 Hand I looked a hand as a baby sister. 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:36.799 What do you mean by that? 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:42.160 My brother might be biologically my brother, but we never 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.480 acted like brothers. Hannah acted like a baby sister to me, 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:47.920 and my uncle Chris acted like a brother to me. 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:54.280 Would we go fishing together, four wheel and fix buck 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.840 eyes during the holidays, tell dirty jokes back and forth, 0:02:57.880 --> 0:02:59.840 talk to each other about what was father and each other? 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:02.520 How else would you describe your relationship. 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.320 We'd sit around, tell dirty jokes and stuff, and I'd 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.760 put beer and stuff and different containers so Jake wouldn't 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:10.440 know she was drinking. 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:16.440 Okay, And what did Jake think of your relationship? 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.840 He I don't think he really liked it. He or 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:21.040 I was too close to her? 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.880 And were you anything ever more than brother little sister? 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.200 There's quite a bit any age differences. 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.400 Think him five and a half years, maybe six? 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:37.920 And would you do other activities together? 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.880 We sit around, tell dirty jokes with each other. And 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:44.480 if Hannah was having an emotional day, she talked to 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.520 me about it, or if I was having an emotional day, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:47.600 I talked to her about it. 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.040 And at this time, you're kind of a big fellow, right, yes? 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.119 Is that something you would ever talk to him. 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:57.880 That's kind of like a two way street with us. 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.800 What do you mean she were about her weight, I 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.440 worried about mind, and so what would you do? Sit 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.120 there and talk to each other about what possible? Bill 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:08.000 is at least weight. 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.720 After being reunited by Hanname Roden, George Wagner and Tabitha 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:18.080 were married in twenty twelve. George described a difficult. 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:23.440 Marriage and did Tabby abby medical other issue? 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:26.040 She had really bad fits? 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:26.960 What do you mean? 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.440 She would freak out and yell and scream, and she 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.520 would just rock back and forth and cry on average 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.160 two or three times a week. And so what would 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.599 you do at that point in time? Yeah, just try 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.720 and calm her down. Usually usually if I'd just give 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.320 her a hug, she'd calm down. But do you know 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.760 she was on any medications she's supposed to. 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:54.760 Be did she take? How did that affect your li. 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:58.800 We had a lot of really good days until she 0:04:58.839 --> 0:04:59.479 had her fits. 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.720 And so you continued on with your relationship, yes, and 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:07.479 so you decided to have a family, is that right? Yes? 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.039 We tried for over a year to have our son, 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.400 and finally she got pregnant with him. How did that 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:16.720 make it suit the best moment in my. 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.000 Life, but that happiness was short lived. 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.120 She ended up telling me she was grewing her best 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.640 friends then, So what was your action? 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:25.320 Your reaction? 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.760 I mean, it's kind of heartbreaking in a way, but 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.720 she swore that the baby was mine and we went 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:34.280 on with it. 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.200 A DNA test proved the child was George's, but the 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:41.440 damage to the relationship was significant. 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.839 When he was born, I ended up getting a DNA 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.600 test to make sure he was mine. But while we 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.279 were in the hospital, it was driving me nuts with 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:54.440 everything that she had done, and I tried to leave her. 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:59.039 At that point, she begged and cried and pleaded for 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:00.680 me not to leave her, saying she couldn't raise a 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:01.320 kid on her own. 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:03.080 So what did you do? 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.200 I ended up caving and stayed with her. 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.960 George Wagner said between his own families intense fighting and 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.039 Tabitha's fits that he often wanted to run away, but 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.000 because he relied on his mother and not Tabitha to 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:18.960 take care of his son, George didn't. 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.840 And who had primary responsible who took care of him 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:25.280 the most? Me and my mother? 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:26.680 What about ted? 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.080 When she was around somebody else? She had a habit 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.640 of always getting hurt when he was around her. She 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:36.680 bring him out of the bathroom and give him a bath, 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.279 you'd have a new knot on his head. Or she 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.360 shoved his hand in some hot vegetables once and another time. 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:44.880 She might have tried to catch him, but I think 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:46.760 she pushed him off the picnic tables. What looked like 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.360 to me. Do you think him to find that? 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.560 Well? Do you think she was purposely harming him? 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.320 I can't say on any of them, other than the vegetables, 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:57.600 and she did that on purpose? 0:06:58.400 --> 0:06:59.560 What happened? 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.080 He kept trying to reach for him, and she shoved 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:04.479 his hand to them when they were too hot and 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:05.800 held it there until it burned him. 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:06.880 Were there. 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:08.680 That's just what she said she did. 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:11.720 So what was your reaction. 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.000 I didn't trust her to make sure he didn't get hurt. 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.480 Even her own mother said she couldn't handle raising the child. 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.400 The situation at home with Tabitha only continued to unravel. 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.280 I had come in from working and my kid was 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:33.680 sitting on the counter. He was a couple months old, 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:38.720 maybe before the house right after the house barn, and 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.080 I couldn't find Tabby anywhere, and she was locked in 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:46.720 the bathroom. After I got the door opened, she was 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:48.840 sitting in the bathroom in a pull of her own blood. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:50.800 She was trying to kill herself. 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:51.960 How was she doing? 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.440 She had a pair of scissors hacking away at herself. 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:55.720 What did you do? 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.000 I took the scissors from her and bandaged her wrist up. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:01.400 Tried to get her to go to the hospital and 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.280 she refused to say and they put her on a sideboard, 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.080 and I tried to get her to just let me 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:07.400 and her move to Alaska at. 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.360 That point, so what did you actually do? 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.320 I put her in the truck and was going out 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.120 the driveway try and get her to go to the hospital. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.360 Did you have any intensions of moving at that point? 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:19.440 Yes, I was going to move her to Alaska because 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:21.120 she said she couldn't deal with my mother anymore. 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:23.280 Why didn't you go to. 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:26.160 She said, we had no money and didn't have no 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:28.000 way to get there, and it we'd be better off 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:29.840 to stay there where we had the roof over our head. 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.760 And so you agreed that, Yes, I didn't you to do. 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.200 I didn't want to take the chance of being broke 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:40.960 with no roof over my head, and I didn't never 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.240 have the financials backing to do what I wanted to do. 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:46.439 Do you have any regrets over that? 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:47.440 Yes? I do. 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:54.439 During one of Tabitha's quote fits, George Wagner testified that 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.960 she hurt their son while changing his diaper. It's important 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.880 to note that Tabitha Clayter deny any abuse towards her son. 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:05.560 Tabby was in my room changing his diaper and he 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:07.959 was wailing, which for some reason, she can't change the 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.200 diapers out of whaling, and I went to find out 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:12.880 what was wrong with him. So she was kind of 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.440 like holding him down, telling him to quit kicking and stuff, 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.640 and being I think overly pushy with him. So I 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.000 told her to calm down, quit yelling out, even I'll 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.960 do it, and she got mad and tried to swing 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:25.680 around and bumped his head off the wall. So I 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:30.280 took from Tabby and gave him the Hannah. After that, 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.160 Tabby got mad and stormed out of the house and 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.400 went out on the patio, and then I went out 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.720 try and calm her down, and she was doing her 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.320 normal fits, yelling and screaming and hollering. And about that time, 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:43.280 my mother came home. 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:47.200 Because your mother wasn't there, So your mother came home. 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.959 She tried to put herself in the middle of our argument, 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:52.960 and I told her it was not her business, and 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.120 she went in the house after I yelled out her. 0:09:55.120 --> 0:10:00.480 A couple of times after that, I I calm and 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:02.680 ta you down. Usually I can get her to calm down. 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.480 Sometimes a huggle work, but not generally. I tried to 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.440 hug her and she bit me. And after she bit me, 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:11.959 she hit me with a board and took off out 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:13.679 through the driveway. So I said to hell with it 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:14.360 and went in the house. 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.160 After a few hours of looking, georgeaid he found Tabitha 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.840 at a truck stop several miles away. Their relationship continued 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.680 to deteriorate and ended when he found out Tabitha was 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.000 still in her relationship with her friend's father. 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.480 After six weeks, I found out that she wasn't trying 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:36.200 to fix the things. She was still screwing her best 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.760 friend's dad, which was from the beginning that I talked about, 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:40.959 and I went to her house in the middle of 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:43.680 the night to tell her young, I'm done. 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.560 With it, really, what did you do? 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.040 As a result, after that, we got divorced. 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:53.160 Here's Jeff and Stephanie. 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:56.960 Without physical evidence, this case is built on a lot 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.120 of emotion, and so I think what George Wadener and 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.800 his attorneys are trying to do is paint a human 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.480 picture of George Wagner. You know, they've seen the jury 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:07.640 has heard a lot of horrible things about George and 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.199 his family, and so to hear something a little more 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.520 vulnerable and makes them sound more sensitive. 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:14.559 I think they're thinking, can't hurt. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.160 The one detail that I heard was his account of 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.679 his relationship with hannahme Rodin, And according to George, they 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.080 were very close and they were dear friends, and that 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.000 they both were very self conscious about their weight and 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.000 they would talk about that and discuss that. Again, is 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.960 this just an attempt to show him as a vulnerable 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.280 human being or is this just a show. 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.120 We're going to take a break. We'll be back in 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:55.920 a moment. After a brief lunch break, George Wagner returned 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.920 to the stand and calmly continued to distance himself from 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:02.959 his own family. After making new hunting friends, George said 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.520 he made up his mind to leave his family's criminal life. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.360 James became a really close friend of mine. I kind 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.000 of looked at Rick as a second father figure. 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.000 Why do you say Rick was a second fun. 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:16.880 He always gave me a lot of advice growing up. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.679 Was that advice different than what you'd received her? 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:25.240 Yes? Explain it, God, He basically told me not to 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.520 continue down the road I was going doing the stuff 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:28.280 that my father did. 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.160 And did you take that advice to her? 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.200 It took a long time to get it completely out 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.280 of my system, but yes, Well. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.280 When did you start taking his advice to her? 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:41.320 Around the time that me and Tabby got married? 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.280 And you talked earlier about when you and Tabby got 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.920 married and you'd like to drink and have a good 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:54.040 time down at Big Bear. Yes, once your son was born, 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:55.240 did that change? 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.920 I gave all my party in days up increasingly? 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.520 George said he spent time with Rick and James hunting 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.000 a lot. This also angered his mother Angela. 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.600 And how did that affect yours? 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.559 It was always a fighting argument about me spending time 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:12.160 with them and her want me to stay and do 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.160 everything she wanted on the farm. 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.320 So you talked to earlier about how mister Rogan was 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.120 giving you advice? Yes? And did that ever? Did his 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:22.360 advice ever? Think him? 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.400 And one point in time, yes, he basically tried to 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.520 steer me away from where my father was leading me. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.120 Explain what you mean that it was going to end 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:33.520 up badly one day with the theft and the fuel 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.120 and the loads, and I'd always have to look over my. 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.120 Shoulder and all right, So what did you do? 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:41.600 Eventually? I quit? 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:42.320 Quit? 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.440 What everything my dad taught me about? 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.640 How old were you when that was late twenty fourteen? 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:50.880 Late twenty fourteen. 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.120 Yes, George said, as he looked to change his own 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.400 life around, Hannah Roden became more of a present to him, 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:01.000 and that he considered her a close family member having Hannah. 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.040 Round, Yes, she was like a baby sister. 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.880 What was her relationship with your father? 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.400 Her and dad was all your goofing off with each other? 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.520 How about Hannah and your mother? 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:19.520 My mother and Hannah used to do a lot of 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.000 stuff together. They bake all the time, cook all the time. 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.960 She followed her around like a love sick puppy dog. 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.840 Basically, you thought they had a good relationship. Yes, Did 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.320 you ever know all the time when the relationship soured in. 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.000 Any way between my mom and Hannah? 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:36.400 Yes? 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:37.280 Not really. 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.600 What about between her and Jake. 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:43.880 Got to where they bought and argued a lot. 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:47.040 Did there come a time when they separated? 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.760 Yes, my brother and Hannah daylight and dark to each other. 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:51.800 What do you mean? 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.400 I didn't think she'd ever leave him. But they also 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.640 didn't get along because Hannah wanted to do her things 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:57.600 and Jake didn't want. 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.880 To What kind of things did Hannah want to do? 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.400 Hang out with her friends, do normal teenage stuff. She 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.320 kind of missed out of being a teenager when she 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:06.840 got with Jake. 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.800 Major developments today in Pike County, George Wagner the fourth 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.760 took to the stand in his own murder trial. Wagner 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.720 the Fourth is claiming he never took part in or 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.960 had any knowledge of the killings of the Rodent family. 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:26.280 After hours of testimony detailing the toxic Wagner family dynamics 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.560 and his own frustrations with his family, defense attorney John 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:33.720 Parker turned to the April twenty sixteen murders. When asked 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.400 by his lawyer if he knew where his family quote 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.440 stashed the murder weapons, George pleaded ignorance. 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:45.120 Now you heard the testimony and saw the exhibits of 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:49.640 the concrete buckets that were taken off that Guseba, Yes, 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:51.520 had you ever seen those before? 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:51.800 No? 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:54.480 Did you know they were on the goosebar? 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:54.880 No? 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:57.920 Did you know anything about the content? No. 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.280 George Wagner testified that he knew all of the Rodents 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.480 well and liked them. He then went on to explain 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.840 some of the connections between the two families. 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:10.400 What was the relationship between Chris Senior and fun and 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.240 how would you describe their relationship? Like, right before the. 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.359 Murders really close friends? 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.680 What do you mean by really close close friends? 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:19.640 Business partners? 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:21.280 Business partners at one? 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:25.400 Well? Really, I would say more like I really wouldn't 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.600 call it sact business partners. I would say why my 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:28.680 dad was the tag along? 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:31.680 Okay, what kind of business were they? 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.840 From my understanding of it, Yes, my dad was trying 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.680 to help Chris with the growing in the marijuana. 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.360 Well, George knew all of the Rodents. Frankie was the 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:43.600 one he was closest with. 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:45.720 Did you still consider him a friend? 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.840 I still considered being one of my best friends. Yes. 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.400 Then George responded to the many witnesses that implicated him 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:55.120 in the twenty sixteen murders. He denied taking part in 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:57.880 or having knowledge of the murders. As his mother and 0:16:57.920 --> 0:16:59.320 brother had claimed for. 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:04.920 Testimony from Jake. Correct, Yes, you heard your mom testify right? Yes, 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:11.560 was in April of twenty sixteen, all right? Or March 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.159 of twenty sixteen or going all the way back to 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:19.160 January sixteen? Were you aware at any time that Jake 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.400 and your dad and your mom weren't planning to kill 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:22.919 the roses? 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:23.240 No? 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:25.600 Was that ever discussed with you? 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:25.919 No? 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.040 Did you have any idea that was going to happen? 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:29.240 No? 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.600 Did you know of any reason that your family wanted 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.600 to kill the roses? No? Did Jake ever come to 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.320 you and explain what was going to happen? 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:39.679 No? 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.680 Did Jake ever ask you to help in any way? 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:44.119 No? 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:46.200 What about your mother? 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:46.919 No? 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:51.200 What about your father? No? If one of them had 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.800 come to you and ask you to be involved in 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.120 something like this, what do you think you would have done? 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.000 At first? I don't think I would have believed it. 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.240 I just don't. I never would have believed my family 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.840 would be capable of doing something of us magnitude. 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:14.840 Well, you've described in some detail the thefts the artisans 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:19.199 that your family participated in. Yes, other illegal activities, yes, 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.880 including yourself. Yes, So why didn't you think they could 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:24.760 do something like this. 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.800 Theft is one thing, murder is an entirely different thing. 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:33.160 So if you had done they were planning, we're talking 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.439 about it, we're even discussing it. What would have been 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:39.640 what would have been your reaction or what. 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.359 Would you have done? I don't know exactly how I 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:43.480 would have never let it happen. 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:46.600 What would you have done to try to stop it? 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.640 I can't honestly say that the one way or another, 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:51.800 I would have never let it happen. 0:18:55.520 --> 0:19:00.760 Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now Local twelve. 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.280 I personally was surprised that the defense specifically said, were 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:06.920 you there, did you do anything? Did you know about 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:08.959 ahead of time? When did you find out that they 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:13.040 were guilty or that they had actually participated? His answer 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.120 was not until my brother pleaded guilty and I read 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:17.480 his proper and even then he didn't believe it that 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.359 he says he didn't believe it. So, yeah, I mean 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.280 it was it was stunning to hear that after everything 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.840 we've heard about him wanting to kill Ryan Scheider and 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.360 the BCI agent and him on the tapes saying, oh, 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:32.639 we've got to get a lawyer. We get it the 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.240 best lawyer. His mother saying I'll take the fall for it. 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.280 His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.400 for it, which he says he never said. So, yeah, 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.200 I mean it now becomes a case of who do 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:49.000 you believe, Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:50.120 evidence or George. 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:54.919 On the night of the murderers, George Wagner cleimed he 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:57.639 was with his son and father, Billy, before heading to bed. 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:01.240 Well, what did you do the day before? 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.960 The night before one of the things went up on 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:07.160 the hill, took care of the animals. Then my dad 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:11.080 came down, brought my kid doughnuts again, which he never 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:14.680 would stop doing. And then my kid didn't want to believe, 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:15.800 so he stayed with my kid. 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.520 And did you ever leave to go up and commit 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:20.160 these murders? 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:20.520 No? 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:26.040