Speaker 1: His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall
Speaker 1: for it, which he says he never said.
Speaker 2: His account of his relationship with Hannahmee Rodin and according
Speaker 2: to George, they were very close and they were dear friends. Again,
Speaker 2: is this just an attempt to show him as a
Speaker 2: vulnerable human being or is this just a show?
Speaker 3: I don't see how they could ever believe something like that,
Speaker 3: because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christenior and their family would
Speaker 3: never do anything to a child.
Speaker 1: It now becomes a case of who do you believe?
Speaker 1: Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial evidence for George.
Speaker 4: Welcome to the Pipon Massacre Season four, Episode twenty two,
Speaker 4: George Wagner takes the stand Part two. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
Speaker 4: a television producer at Kat's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and
Speaker 4: Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has
Speaker 4: pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.
Speaker 4: His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also
Speaker 4: pleaded not guilty to all charges. Last week, we left
Speaker 4: off with George Wagner testifying about a physical altercation he
Speaker 4: had with his father Billy. We pick up with a
Speaker 4: continuation of George's testimony about the aftermath of the confrontation.
Speaker 4: As the toxic environment at the Wagner home grew, Georg
Speaker 4: said his father, Billy Wagner, moved out.
Speaker 3: Explain his he stayed with my grandparents.
Speaker 5: Yes, do you know why?
Speaker 3: Multiple reasons. One he couldn't stand being around my mother anymore,
Speaker 3: and to my grandfather was bedridden and couldn't.
Speaker 6: Gall abny So I understand who records his father was
Speaker 6: spending a lot of time at the Flying.
Speaker 5: W helping with his father's care.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 6: Also at the same time, what was the relationship between
Speaker 6: him and the mom?
Speaker 3: It basically went to they might as well just called
Speaker 3: it friends after a divorce, even though they weren't divorced.
Speaker 4: As his parents' marriage was falling apart, George began to
Speaker 4: date Tabitha Clater. When their relationship ended, George said his
Speaker 4: brother Jake's girlfriend, Hannah Mae Rodin, played matchmaker. She was
Speaker 4: the one who got Tabitha and George back together.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we've heard a lot about Jake and Hannah's relationship.
Speaker 5: Describe your relationship with.
Speaker 3: Hand I looked a hand as a baby sister.
Speaker 5: What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3: My brother might be biologically my brother, but we never
Speaker 3: acted like brothers. Hannah acted like a baby sister to me,
Speaker 3: and my uncle Chris acted like a brother to me.
Speaker 3: Would we go fishing together, four wheel and fix buck
Speaker 3: eyes during the holidays, tell dirty jokes back and forth,
Speaker 3: talk to each other about what was father and each other?
Speaker 5: How else would you describe your relationship.
Speaker 3: We'd sit around, tell dirty jokes and stuff, and I'd
Speaker 3: put beer and stuff and different containers so Jake wouldn't
Speaker 3: know she was drinking.
Speaker 6: Okay, And what did Jake think of your relationship?
Speaker 3: He I don't think he really liked it. He or
Speaker 3: I was too close to her?
Speaker 6: And were you anything ever more than brother little sister?
Speaker 6: There's quite a bit any age differences.
Speaker 3: Think him five and a half years, maybe six?
Speaker 5: And would you do other activities together?
Speaker 3: We sit around, tell dirty jokes with each other. And
Speaker 3: if Hannah was having an emotional day, she talked to
Speaker 3: me about it, or if I was having an emotional day,
Speaker 3: I talked to her about it.
Speaker 6: And at this time, you're kind of a big fellow, right, yes?
Speaker 6: Is that something you would ever talk to him.
Speaker 3: That's kind of like a two way street with us.
Speaker 3: What do you mean she were about her weight, I
Speaker 3: worried about mind, and so what would you do? Sit
Speaker 3: there and talk to each other about what possible? Bill
Speaker 3: is at least weight.
Speaker 4: After being reunited by Hanname Roden, George Wagner and Tabitha
Speaker 4: were married in twenty twelve. George described a difficult.
Speaker 5: Marriage and did Tabby abby medical other issue?
Speaker 3: She had really bad fits?
Speaker 5: What do you mean?
Speaker 3: She would freak out and yell and scream, and she
Speaker 3: would just rock back and forth and cry on average
Speaker 3: two or three times a week. And so what would
Speaker 3: you do at that point in time? Yeah, just try
Speaker 3: and calm her down. Usually usually if I'd just give
Speaker 3: her a hug, she'd calm down. But do you know
Speaker 3: she was on any medications she's supposed to.
Speaker 5: Be did she take? How did that affect your li.
Speaker 3: We had a lot of really good days until she
Speaker 3: had her fits.
Speaker 5: And so you continued on with your relationship, yes, and
Speaker 5: so you decided to have a family, is that right? Yes?
Speaker 3: We tried for over a year to have our son,
Speaker 3: and finally she got pregnant with him. How did that
Speaker 3: make it suit the best moment in my.
Speaker 4: Life, but that happiness was short lived.
Speaker 3: She ended up telling me she was grewing her best
Speaker 3: friends then, So what was your action?
Speaker 5: Your reaction?
Speaker 3: I mean, it's kind of heartbreaking in a way, but
Speaker 3: she swore that the baby was mine and we went
Speaker 3: on with it.
Speaker 4: A DNA test proved the child was George's, but the
Speaker 4: damage to the relationship was significant.
Speaker 3: When he was born, I ended up getting a DNA
Speaker 3: test to make sure he was mine. But while we
Speaker 3: were in the hospital, it was driving me nuts with
Speaker 3: everything that she had done, and I tried to leave her.
Speaker 3: At that point, she begged and cried and pleaded for
Speaker 3: me not to leave her, saying she couldn't raise a
Speaker 3: kid on her own.
Speaker 5: So what did you do?
Speaker 3: I ended up caving and stayed with her.
Speaker 4: George Wagner said between his own families intense fighting and
Speaker 4: Tabitha's fits that he often wanted to run away, but
Speaker 4: because he relied on his mother and not Tabitha to
Speaker 4: take care of his son, George didn't.
Speaker 3: And who had primary responsible who took care of him
Speaker 3: the most? Me and my mother?
Speaker 5: What about ted?
Speaker 3: When she was around somebody else? She had a habit
Speaker 3: of always getting hurt when he was around her. She
Speaker 3: bring him out of the bathroom and give him a bath,
Speaker 3: you'd have a new knot on his head. Or she
Speaker 3: shoved his hand in some hot vegetables once and another time.
Speaker 3: She might have tried to catch him, but I think
Speaker 3: she pushed him off the picnic tables. What looked like
Speaker 3: to me. Do you think him to find that?
Speaker 5: Well? Do you think she was purposely harming him?
Speaker 3: I can't say on any of them, other than the vegetables,
Speaker 3: and she did that on purpose?
Speaker 5: What happened?
Speaker 3: He kept trying to reach for him, and she shoved
Speaker 3: his hand to them when they were too hot and
Speaker 3: held it there until it burned him.
Speaker 5: Were there.
Speaker 3: That's just what she said she did.
Speaker 5: So what was your reaction.
Speaker 3: I didn't trust her to make sure he didn't get hurt.
Speaker 3: Even her own mother said she couldn't handle raising the child.
Speaker 4: The situation at home with Tabitha only continued to unravel.
Speaker 3: I had come in from working and my kid was
Speaker 3: sitting on the counter. He was a couple months old,
Speaker 3: maybe before the house right after the house barn, and
Speaker 3: I couldn't find Tabby anywhere, and she was locked in
Speaker 3: the bathroom. After I got the door opened, she was
Speaker 3: sitting in the bathroom in a pull of her own blood.
Speaker 3: She was trying to kill herself.
Speaker 5: How was she doing?
Speaker 3: She had a pair of scissors hacking away at herself.
Speaker 5: What did you do?
Speaker 3: I took the scissors from her and bandaged her wrist up.
Speaker 3: Tried to get her to go to the hospital and
Speaker 3: she refused to say and they put her on a sideboard,
Speaker 3: and I tried to get her to just let me
Speaker 3: and her move to Alaska at.
Speaker 5: That point, so what did you actually do?
Speaker 3: I put her in the truck and was going out
Speaker 3: the driveway try and get her to go to the hospital.
Speaker 5: Did you have any intensions of moving at that point?
Speaker 3: Yes, I was going to move her to Alaska because
Speaker 3: she said she couldn't deal with my mother anymore.
Speaker 5: Why didn't you go to.
Speaker 3: She said, we had no money and didn't have no
Speaker 3: way to get there, and it we'd be better off
Speaker 3: to stay there where we had the roof over our head.
Speaker 5: And so you agreed that, Yes, I didn't you to do.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to take the chance of being broke
Speaker 3: with no roof over my head, and I didn't never
Speaker 3: have the financials backing to do what I wanted to do.
Speaker 5: Do you have any regrets over that?
Speaker 3: Yes? I do.
Speaker 4: During one of Tabitha's quote fits, George Wagner testified that
Speaker 4: she hurt their son while changing his diaper. It's important
Speaker 4: to note that Tabitha Clayter deny any abuse towards her son.
Speaker 3: Tabby was in my room changing his diaper and he
Speaker 3: was wailing, which for some reason, she can't change the
Speaker 3: diapers out of whaling, and I went to find out
Speaker 3: what was wrong with him. So she was kind of
Speaker 3: like holding him down, telling him to quit kicking and stuff,
Speaker 3: and being I think overly pushy with him. So I
Speaker 3: told her to calm down, quit yelling out, even I'll
Speaker 3: do it, and she got mad and tried to swing
Speaker 3: around and bumped his head off the wall. So I
Speaker 3: took from Tabby and gave him the Hannah. After that,
Speaker 3: Tabby got mad and stormed out of the house and
Speaker 3: went out on the patio, and then I went out
Speaker 3: try and calm her down, and she was doing her
Speaker 3: normal fits, yelling and screaming and hollering. And about that time,
Speaker 3: my mother came home.
Speaker 5: Because your mother wasn't there, So your mother came home.
Speaker 3: She tried to put herself in the middle of our argument,
Speaker 3: and I told her it was not her business, and
Speaker 3: she went in the house after I yelled out her.
Speaker 3: A couple of times after that, I I calm and
Speaker 3: ta you down. Usually I can get her to calm down.
Speaker 3: Sometimes a huggle work, but not generally. I tried to
Speaker 3: hug her and she bit me. And after she bit me,
Speaker 3: she hit me with a board and took off out
Speaker 3: through the driveway. So I said to hell with it
Speaker 3: and went in the house.
Speaker 4: After a few hours of looking, georgeaid he found Tabitha
Speaker 4: at a truck stop several miles away. Their relationship continued
Speaker 4: to deteriorate and ended when he found out Tabitha was
Speaker 4: still in her relationship with her friend's father.
Speaker 3: After six weeks, I found out that she wasn't trying
Speaker 3: to fix the things. She was still screwing her best
Speaker 3: friend's dad, which was from the beginning that I talked about,
Speaker 3: and I went to her house in the middle of
Speaker 3: the night to tell her young, I'm done.
Speaker 5: With it, really, what did you do?
Speaker 3: As a result, after that, we got divorced.
Speaker 4: Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 7: Without physical evidence, this case is built on a lot
Speaker 7: of emotion, and so I think what George Wadener and
Speaker 7: his attorneys are trying to do is paint a human
Speaker 7: picture of George Wagner. You know, they've seen the jury
Speaker 7: has heard a lot of horrible things about George and
Speaker 7: his family, and so to hear something a little more
Speaker 7: vulnerable and makes them sound more sensitive.
Speaker 5: I think they're thinking, can't hurt.
Speaker 2: The one detail that I heard was his account of
Speaker 2: his relationship with hannahme Rodin, And according to George, they
Speaker 2: were very close and they were dear friends, and that
Speaker 2: they both were very self conscious about their weight and
Speaker 2: they would talk about that and discuss that. Again, is
Speaker 2: this just an attempt to show him as a vulnerable
Speaker 2: human being or is this just a show.
Speaker 4: We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
Speaker 4: a moment. After a brief lunch break, George Wagner returned
Speaker 4: to the stand and calmly continued to distance himself from
Speaker 4: his own family. After making new hunting friends, George said
Speaker 4: he made up his mind to leave his family's criminal life.
Speaker 3: James became a really close friend of mine. I kind
Speaker 3: of looked at Rick as a second father figure.
Speaker 5: Why do you say Rick was a second fun.
Speaker 3: He always gave me a lot of advice growing up.
Speaker 5: Was that advice different than what you'd received her?
Speaker 3: Yes? Explain it, God, He basically told me not to
Speaker 3: continue down the road I was going doing the stuff
Speaker 3: that my father did.
Speaker 5: And did you take that advice to her?
Speaker 3: It took a long time to get it completely out
Speaker 3: of my system, but yes, Well.
Speaker 5: When did you start taking his advice to her?
Speaker 3: Around the time that me and Tabby got married?
Speaker 5: And you talked earlier about when you and Tabby got
Speaker 5: married and you'd like to drink and have a good
Speaker 5: time down at Big Bear. Yes, once your son was born,
Speaker 5: did that change?
Speaker 3: I gave all my party in days up increasingly?
Speaker 4: George said he spent time with Rick and James hunting
Speaker 4: a lot. This also angered his mother Angela.
Speaker 5: And how did that affect yours?
Speaker 3: It was always a fighting argument about me spending time
Speaker 3: with them and her want me to stay and do
Speaker 3: everything she wanted on the farm.
Speaker 5: So you talked to earlier about how mister Rogan was
Speaker 5: giving you advice? Yes? And did that ever? Did his
Speaker 5: advice ever? Think him?
Speaker 3: And one point in time, yes, he basically tried to
Speaker 3: steer me away from where my father was leading me.
Speaker 3: Explain what you mean that it was going to end
Speaker 3: up badly one day with the theft and the fuel
Speaker 3: and the loads, and I'd always have to look over my.
Speaker 5: Shoulder and all right, So what did you do?
Speaker 3: Eventually? I quit?
Speaker 5: Quit?
Speaker 3: What everything my dad taught me about?
Speaker 5: How old were you when that was late twenty fourteen?
Speaker 5: Late twenty fourteen.
Speaker 4: Yes, George said, as he looked to change his own
Speaker 4: life around, Hannah Roden became more of a present to him,
Speaker 4: and that he considered her a close family member having Hannah.
Speaker 3: Round, Yes, she was like a baby sister.
Speaker 5: What was her relationship with your father?
Speaker 3: Her and dad was all your goofing off with each other?
Speaker 5: How about Hannah and your mother?
Speaker 3: My mother and Hannah used to do a lot of
Speaker 3: stuff together. They bake all the time, cook all the time.
Speaker 3: She followed her around like a love sick puppy dog.
Speaker 5: Basically, you thought they had a good relationship. Yes, Did
Speaker 5: you ever know all the time when the relationship soured in.
Speaker 3: Any way between my mom and Hannah?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 3: Not really.
Speaker 5: What about between her and Jake.
Speaker 3: Got to where they bought and argued a lot.
Speaker 5: Did there come a time when they separated?
Speaker 3: Yes, my brother and Hannah daylight and dark to each other.
Speaker 5: What do you mean?
Speaker 3: I didn't think she'd ever leave him. But they also
Speaker 3: didn't get along because Hannah wanted to do her things
Speaker 3: and Jake didn't want.
Speaker 5: To What kind of things did Hannah want to do?
Speaker 3: Hang out with her friends, do normal teenage stuff. She
Speaker 3: kind of missed out of being a teenager when she
Speaker 3: got with Jake.
Speaker 8: Major developments today in Pike County, George Wagner the fourth
Speaker 8: took to the stand in his own murder trial. Wagner
Speaker 8: the Fourth is claiming he never took part in or
Speaker 8: had any knowledge of the killings of the Rodent family.
Speaker 4: After hours of testimony detailing the toxic Wagner family dynamics
Speaker 4: and his own frustrations with his family, defense attorney John
Speaker 4: Parker turned to the April twenty sixteen murders. When asked
Speaker 4: by his lawyer if he knew where his family quote
Speaker 4: stashed the murder weapons, George pleaded ignorance.
Speaker 6: Now you heard the testimony and saw the exhibits of
Speaker 6: the concrete buckets that were taken off that Guseba, Yes,
Speaker 6: had you ever seen those before?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: Did you know they were on the goosebar?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 5: Did you know anything about the content? No.
Speaker 4: George Wagner testified that he knew all of the Rodents
Speaker 4: well and liked them. He then went on to explain
Speaker 4: some of the connections between the two families.
Speaker 5: What was the relationship between Chris Senior and fun and
Speaker 5: how would you describe their relationship? Like, right before the.
Speaker 3: Murders really close friends?
Speaker 5: What do you mean by really close close friends?
Speaker 3: Business partners?
Speaker 5: Business partners at one?
Speaker 3: Well? Really, I would say more like I really wouldn't
Speaker 3: call it sact business partners. I would say why my
Speaker 3: dad was the tag along?
Speaker 5: Okay, what kind of business were they?
Speaker 3: From my understanding of it, Yes, my dad was trying
Speaker 3: to help Chris with the growing in the marijuana.
Speaker 4: Well, George knew all of the Rodents. Frankie was the
Speaker 4: one he was closest with.
Speaker 5: Did you still consider him a friend?
Speaker 3: I still considered being one of my best friends. Yes.
Speaker 4: Then George responded to the many witnesses that implicated him
Speaker 4: in the twenty sixteen murders. He denied taking part in
Speaker 4: or having knowledge of the murders. As his mother and
Speaker 4: brother had claimed for.
Speaker 5: Testimony from Jake. Correct, Yes, you heard your mom testify right? Yes,
Speaker 5: was in April of twenty sixteen, all right? Or March
Speaker 5: of twenty sixteen or going all the way back to
Speaker 5: January sixteen? Were you aware at any time that Jake
Speaker 5: and your dad and your mom weren't planning to kill
Speaker 5: the roses?
Speaker 8: No?
Speaker 5: Was that ever discussed with you?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 5: Did you have any idea that was going to happen?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: Did you know of any reason that your family wanted
Speaker 5: to kill the roses? No? Did Jake ever come to
Speaker 5: you and explain what was going to happen?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: Did Jake ever ask you to help in any way?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 5: What about your mother?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 5: What about your father? No? If one of them had
Speaker 5: come to you and ask you to be involved in
Speaker 5: something like this, what do you think you would have done?
Speaker 3: At first? I don't think I would have believed it.
Speaker 3: I just don't. I never would have believed my family
Speaker 3: would be capable of doing something of us magnitude.
Speaker 5: Well, you've described in some detail the thefts the artisans
Speaker 5: that your family participated in. Yes, other illegal activities, yes,
Speaker 5: including yourself. Yes, So why didn't you think they could
Speaker 5: do something like this.
Speaker 3: Theft is one thing, murder is an entirely different thing.
Speaker 5: So if you had done they were planning, we're talking
Speaker 5: about it, we're even discussing it. What would have been
Speaker 5: what would have been your reaction or what.
Speaker 3: Would you have done? I don't know exactly how I
Speaker 3: would have never let it happen.
Speaker 5: What would you have done to try to stop it?
Speaker 3: I can't honestly say that the one way or another,
Speaker 3: I would have never let it happen.
Speaker 4: Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now Local twelve.
Speaker 1: I personally was surprised that the defense specifically said, were
Speaker 1: you there, did you do anything? Did you know about
Speaker 1: ahead of time? When did you find out that they
Speaker 1: were guilty or that they had actually participated? His answer
Speaker 1: was not until my brother pleaded guilty and I read
Speaker 1: his proper and even then he didn't believe it that
Speaker 1: he says he didn't believe it. So, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it was it was stunning to hear that after everything
Speaker 1: we've heard about him wanting to kill Ryan Scheider and
Speaker 1: the BCI agent and him on the tapes saying, oh,
Speaker 1: we've got to get a lawyer. We get it the
Speaker 1: best lawyer. His mother saying I'll take the fall for it.
Speaker 1: His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall
Speaker 1: for it, which he says he never said. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it now becomes a case of who do
Speaker 1: you believe, Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial
Speaker 1: evidence or George.
Speaker 4: On the night of the murderers, George Wagner cleimed he
Speaker 4: was with his son and father, Billy, before heading to bed.
Speaker 5: Well, what did you do the day before?
Speaker 3: The night before one of the things went up on
Speaker 3: the hill, took care of the animals. Then my dad
Speaker 3: came down, brought my kid doughnuts again, which he never
Speaker 3: would stop doing. And then my kid didn't want to believe,
Speaker 3: so he stayed with my kid.
Speaker 5: And did you ever leave to go up and commit
Speaker 5: these murders?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: Did you know that Jake and your dad had left?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: How do you explain it?
Speaker 3: I just didn't know they left.
Speaker 5: Did you go to bed day? Did you go to
Speaker 5: sleep that night? Yes?
Speaker 4: George says he woke up the next morning, made coffee
Speaker 4: and went with Jake to tear down a structure on
Speaker 4: his grandfather's property.
Speaker 3: When I got back to the house, the news was
Speaker 3: saying that there had been people killed on Union Hill
Speaker 3: and my dad was freaking out, saying he couldn't get
Speaker 3: a hold of Chris Senior, and where was Jake. Jake
Speaker 3: was outside on the phone, right, where was your mother?
Speaker 3: The mud room? Believe right?
Speaker 5: So what was your reaction?
Speaker 3: I was trying to ask my dad what was really
Speaker 3: on the news and what was going on, and he
Speaker 3: was still freaking out, saying Chris would an answer the phone.
Speaker 3: And then Jake come in and said that Andrew Carson
Speaker 3: had told him that Hannah and Frankie and everybody had
Speaker 3: been killed.
Speaker 5: What was your reaction?
Speaker 3: I really don't know how to put it into words.
Speaker 5: Take him minute down the best you can.
Speaker 3: It was more heartbreaking and more of a trauma than
Speaker 3: I've ever been through in my life.
Speaker 5: So what did you do?
Speaker 3: I ended up getting on my fourwheeler and going up
Speaker 3: the hill, up the.
Speaker 5: Hill behind your farm. Yes, why did you do that?
Speaker 3: I always go out in the woods. Why I need
Speaker 3: to calm down or need a little bit of therapy?
Speaker 5: And how long did you stay?
Speaker 2: That?
Speaker 3: A couple hours? Maybe when I come back down Samansa.
Speaker 3: Fred had called me a little after her and my
Speaker 3: ex wife, Taviy called me.
Speaker 5: What was Jake doing?
Speaker 3: He was sitting in the living room, kind of like
Speaker 3: a day.
Speaker 5: What was your dad?
Speaker 3: He was still in the living room and just kind
Speaker 3: of sitting there talking to Jake, and Jake really wasn't responding.
Speaker 5: What was your mother doing?
Speaker 3: I remember correctly, she was in the kitchen with the kids.
Speaker 4: George said, despite what others had testified, he never discussed
Speaker 4: the murderers with his family afterwards.
Speaker 5: Did your dad ever talk to you in those following
Speaker 5: days about the murder?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 5: Did your brother Jake ever talk to you at any
Speaker 5: time about the murder? No? Did your mother ever talk
Speaker 5: to you at any time about the murder?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 5: Did you ever overhear them talking amongst themselves? No? Did
Speaker 5: you have any clue your family was involved in this?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: George said, he and his family attended the road and funerals,
Speaker 4: and his parents and Jake acted quote normal.
Speaker 5: Did you ever talk about the murders on the way No?
Speaker 5: How about on the way home?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: What was what was your dad's demeanor?
Speaker 3: Acted like my dad?
Speaker 5: What about Jake?
Speaker 3: Jake just acted like Jake? He doesn't hardly ever show emotion.
Speaker 5: Well, you saw him testify here right, Yes. Did you
Speaker 5: see him laugh and smile and smirk?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: Had you ever seen him act like that?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 5: Never, never in my life. You said he doesn't show emotion, No,
Speaker 5: what do you mean by that?
Speaker 3: He won't even let you give him a hug.
Speaker 4: George said later that his family went on a trip
Speaker 4: to Alaska in May of twenty seventeen, and on the
Speaker 4: way home were stopped and interrogated.
Speaker 5: Did you, at this point in time know if your
Speaker 5: family had any involvement in these murders?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 5: Were you upset that BCI was still looking at your
Speaker 5: family after this time?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 5: I was very upset.
Speaker 3: Because I was under the assumption that they were just
Speaker 3: trying to point the finger at anybody they could do
Speaker 3: so they wouldn't continue to be like Facebook topics was
Speaker 3: saying that they didn't know what they were doing for
Speaker 3: their job. I thought they were just trying to frame
Speaker 3: my mom and brother.
Speaker 4: George said his interrogation by BCI agents at the border
Speaker 4: started friendly enough, but then they began accusing him and
Speaker 4: his family of killing the Rodents.
Speaker 3: If I remember correctly, They started off talking about hunting.
Speaker 5: And vision okay, And then then.
Speaker 3: They started asking questions about receipts and shell casings and
Speaker 3: shoes and.
Speaker 5: Did they show you any photographs or any documents? Did
Speaker 5: they showed you?
Speaker 3: Yes, they showed me pictures of shellcasing, a picture, I
Speaker 3: believe a picture of Walmart receipt and a pair of shoes.
Speaker 5: And what were what kind of questions were they asking.
Speaker 3: They were saying that my mom bought the pair of shoes,
Speaker 3: and the receipts showed she bought them, and that those
Speaker 3: were those shoes that was used. And then they said
Speaker 3: that they found a showcasing of the crime scene that
Speaker 3: matched my father's gun.
Speaker 5: And what was your reaction on it?
Speaker 3: I didn't believe what they were saying.
Speaker 5: Were you told that your family was involved.
Speaker 3: They accused my brother and my mother of it.
Speaker 5: Yes, what was your reaction?
Speaker 3: I was just upset about it. I was emostly distraught
Speaker 3: that they would accuse my family.
Speaker 5: So you're in this interview or interrogation in Montana. What
Speaker 5: was your understanding at the end of the interview.
Speaker 3: At the end of it, yeah, my understanding of it
Speaker 3: was they were either going to call me a suspect
Speaker 3: or a witness whichever they decided, and that they wanted
Speaker 3: me to basically spy on my brother.
Speaker 5: Did you agree to do that? Yes? Did you ever
Speaker 5: have a conversation with your brother after this Montana?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 5: Explain him.
Speaker 3: I asked my brother if he had had anything to
Speaker 3: do with it, or if he knew who did When?
Speaker 5: Did you have that conversation?
Speaker 3: When we got back from Montana was on the farm
Speaker 3: reloading everything.
Speaker 5: Is anybody else around? No?
Speaker 3: It was just me and him.
Speaker 5: What was his response?
Speaker 3: He swore up and down he didn't know who did
Speaker 3: it and they didn't have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5: Did you accept that?
Speaker 3: I had no reason not to believe him?
Speaker 4: Let's stop here for another break. Despite Jak and his parents' denials,
Speaker 4: George said, the rumors of their involvement in the murderers
Speaker 4: followed them to Alaska.
Speaker 5: All right, well, let's talk about that for a second.
Speaker 5: You're up in Alaska, right, Yes? Did these crimes? Were
Speaker 5: they publicized in Alaska?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 3: How's that it ended up being broadcast on the local
Speaker 3: news channels up there? What was broadcast that my family
Speaker 3: were subjects of interest and anybody who had information I
Speaker 3: should call this number?
Speaker 5: How did that make.
Speaker 3: Not happy about it. I h when I first got
Speaker 3: to a last guy, I went to Sportsman's warehouse to
Speaker 3: buy me a new clock, where I sold mine before
Speaker 3: I left and h they sold it to it no problems.
Speaker 3: Then when I went back after that, they refused to
Speaker 3: tell me anything.
Speaker 4: Even now, George says he can't believe his brother and
Speaker 4: mother admitted to the killings.
Speaker 5: What did you think?
Speaker 3: I really didn't know how to take her to want
Speaker 3: to think. I first thought my brother had just gone
Speaker 3: crazy sitting in jail. Why did you think that my
Speaker 3: brother is not a social person and doesn't get along
Speaker 3: well with people. I couldn't understand how my brother would
Speaker 3: be capable of doing something like this, especially after he'd
Speaker 3: swore to me but he had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5: That make you feel.
Speaker 3: Heartbroken, betrayed for the fact that what he did to
Speaker 3: Hand and Frankie and their family, and for the fact
Speaker 3: that I believed him and I took up for him.
Speaker 4: George says he had a similar reaction when his mother
Speaker 4: pled guilty.
Speaker 3: I was heartbroken over it and felt betrayed, and I
Speaker 3: just couldn't believe that they were capable of it.
Speaker 5: You still have a hard time, Conte.
Speaker 3: I have a hard time dealing, was it?
Speaker 5: Yes? Now you heard your brother come in here and
Speaker 5: testify that you were part of the play.
Speaker 3: Yes, I heard that.
Speaker 5: Is that true?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 5: Did you help him in any way before the murders? No?
Speaker 5: Did you help him in any way after?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: Did you help him build that false bed on the truck? No?
Speaker 5: Did you crawl in that truck? No? Were you up
Speaker 5: on Union Hill Road that night?
Speaker 8: No?
Speaker 5: Did you help him get rid of the clothing afterwards?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: Did you help him dig that hole? No? Did you
Speaker 5: help him get rid of the guns and other things
Speaker 5: that were found on the concrete bucket? You heard your
Speaker 5: mother testify too, Yes? How did it make you feel
Speaker 5: to have your mother testify against you?
Speaker 3: It was emotionally hard, considering she wouldn't even look at me.
Speaker 4: After George's denials, he said he didn't believe what Jake
Speaker 4: and his mother, Angela's rationale was for the murders.
Speaker 5: You heard your brother testify about he thought was being
Speaker 5: sexually amused. Yes, same thing for your mother. Yes. Did
Speaker 5: you at any time ever suspect it was being sexually amused? No?
Speaker 5: What was your reaction when you heard your brother and
Speaker 5: your mother testify.
Speaker 3: But I don't see how they could ever believe something
Speaker 3: like that, because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christina and their
Speaker 3: family would never do anything to a child.
Speaker 5: Do you know why your family did this?
Speaker 3: Can't even begin to imagine why. I've tried for the
Speaker 3: past year and a half to figure it out.
Speaker 5: Now that you know Jake has pled guilty, what do
Speaker 5: you think of it?
Speaker 3: I really don't even like calling him my brother anymore.
Speaker 5: What is that?
Speaker 3: I just I'm ashamed to know that my family would
Speaker 3: do something like this.
Speaker 5: What about your mother?
Speaker 3: I have the same feeling towards her.
Speaker 4: Here again, Investigative journalist James Pilcher.
Speaker 1: He owns up everything short of being part of the merch.
Speaker 1: He owned up to all the criminal activity, even on
Speaker 1: his own outside of his family. He owned up to everything.
Speaker 1: But he said, I would never kill anybody. I would
Speaker 1: never kill anybody for his niece. He would never kill
Speaker 1: anybody for his own son. He would never even think
Speaker 1: about it. And he said, if I had known about it,
Speaker 1: I would have tried to account it. So now if
Speaker 1: I'm a durer or my head is swimming.
Speaker 4: On that. Next time for more information on the case,
Speaker 4: and relevant photos. Follow us on Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios.
Speaker 4: The Pikedon Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane,
Speaker 4: Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 4: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music by Jared Aston.
Speaker 4: The Pikedon Masker is a production of iHeart Radio and
Speaker 4: KAT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the
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