1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: for it, which he says he never said. 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: His account of his relationship with Hannahmee Rodin and according 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: to George, they were very close and they were dear friends. Again, 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 2: is this just an attempt to show him as a 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 2: vulnerable human being or is this just a show? 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 3: I don't see how they could ever believe something like that, 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 3: because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christenior and their family would 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 3: never do anything to a child. 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: It now becomes a case of who do you believe? 11 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial evidence for George. 12 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 4: Welcome to the Pipon Massacre Season four, Episode twenty two, 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 4: George Wagner takes the stand Part two. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 4: a television producer at Kat's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and 15 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 4: Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has 16 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 4: pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. 17 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 4: His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also 18 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 4: pleaded not guilty to all charges. Last week, we left 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 4: off with George Wagner testifying about a physical altercation he 20 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 4: had with his father Billy. We pick up with a 21 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 4: continuation of George's testimony about the aftermath of the confrontation. 22 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 4: As the toxic environment at the Wagner home grew, Georg 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 4: said his father, Billy Wagner, moved out. 24 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 3: Explain his he stayed with my grandparents. 25 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 5: Yes, do you know why? 26 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 3: Multiple reasons. One he couldn't stand being around my mother anymore, 27 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: and to my grandfather was bedridden and couldn't. 28 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 6: Gall abny So I understand who records his father was 29 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 6: spending a lot of time at the Flying. 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 5: W helping with his father's care. 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 3: Yes. 32 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 6: Also at the same time, what was the relationship between 33 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 6: him and the mom? 34 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 3: It basically went to they might as well just called 35 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 3: it friends after a divorce, even though they weren't divorced. 36 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 4: As his parents' marriage was falling apart, George began to 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 4: date Tabitha Clater. When their relationship ended, George said his 38 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 4: brother Jake's girlfriend, Hannah Mae Rodin, played matchmaker. She was 39 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 4: the one who got Tabitha and George back together. 40 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, we've heard a lot about Jake and Hannah's relationship. 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 5: Describe your relationship with. 42 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 3: Hand I looked a hand as a baby sister. 43 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 5: What do you mean by that? 44 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 3: My brother might be biologically my brother, but we never 45 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: acted like brothers. Hannah acted like a baby sister to me, 46 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 3: and my uncle Chris acted like a brother to me. 47 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: Would we go fishing together, four wheel and fix buck 48 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 3: eyes during the holidays, tell dirty jokes back and forth, 49 00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 3: talk to each other about what was father and each other? 50 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 5: How else would you describe your relationship. 51 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 3: We'd sit around, tell dirty jokes and stuff, and I'd 52 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 3: put beer and stuff and different containers so Jake wouldn't 53 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: know she was drinking. 54 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 6: Okay, And what did Jake think of your relationship? 55 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 3: He I don't think he really liked it. He or 56 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 3: I was too close to her? 57 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 6: And were you anything ever more than brother little sister? 58 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 6: There's quite a bit any age differences. 59 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 3: Think him five and a half years, maybe six? 60 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 5: And would you do other activities together? 61 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 3: We sit around, tell dirty jokes with each other. And 62 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 3: if Hannah was having an emotional day, she talked to 63 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 3: me about it, or if I was having an emotional day, 64 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: I talked to her about it. 65 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 6: And at this time, you're kind of a big fellow, right, yes? 66 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 6: Is that something you would ever talk to him. 67 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: That's kind of like a two way street with us. 68 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 3: What do you mean she were about her weight, I 69 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 3: worried about mind, and so what would you do? Sit 70 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 3: there and talk to each other about what possible? Bill 71 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 3: is at least weight. 72 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 4: After being reunited by Hanname Roden, George Wagner and Tabitha 73 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 4: were married in twenty twelve. George described a difficult. 74 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 5: Marriage and did Tabby abby medical other issue? 75 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 3: She had really bad fits? 76 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 5: What do you mean? 77 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: She would freak out and yell and scream, and she 78 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: would just rock back and forth and cry on average 79 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 3: two or three times a week. And so what would 80 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 3: you do at that point in time? Yeah, just try 81 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 3: and calm her down. Usually usually if I'd just give 82 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 3: her a hug, she'd calm down. But do you know 83 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 3: she was on any medications she's supposed to. 84 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 5: Be did she take? How did that affect your li. 85 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 3: We had a lot of really good days until she 86 00:04:58,839 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 3: had her fits. 87 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 5: And so you continued on with your relationship, yes, and 88 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 5: so you decided to have a family, is that right? Yes? 89 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 3: We tried for over a year to have our son, 90 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: and finally she got pregnant with him. How did that 91 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 3: make it suit the best moment in my. 92 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 4: Life, but that happiness was short lived. 93 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 3: She ended up telling me she was grewing her best 94 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 3: friends then, So what was your action? 95 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 5: Your reaction? 96 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: I mean, it's kind of heartbreaking in a way, but 97 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 3: she swore that the baby was mine and we went 98 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 3: on with it. 99 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 4: A DNA test proved the child was George's, but the 100 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 4: damage to the relationship was significant. 101 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 3: When he was born, I ended up getting a DNA 102 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 3: test to make sure he was mine. But while we 103 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: were in the hospital, it was driving me nuts with 104 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: everything that she had done, and I tried to leave her. 105 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 3: At that point, she begged and cried and pleaded for 106 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: me not to leave her, saying she couldn't raise a 107 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 3: kid on her own. 108 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 5: So what did you do? 109 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: I ended up caving and stayed with her. 110 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 4: George Wagner said between his own families intense fighting and 111 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 4: Tabitha's fits that he often wanted to run away, but 112 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 4: because he relied on his mother and not Tabitha to 113 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 4: take care of his son, George didn't. 114 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 3: And who had primary responsible who took care of him 115 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 3: the most? Me and my mother? 116 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 5: What about ted? 117 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 3: When she was around somebody else? She had a habit 118 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: of always getting hurt when he was around her. She 119 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 3: bring him out of the bathroom and give him a bath, 120 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 3: you'd have a new knot on his head. Or she 121 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 3: shoved his hand in some hot vegetables once and another time. 122 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 3: She might have tried to catch him, but I think 123 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: she pushed him off the picnic tables. What looked like 124 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 3: to me. Do you think him to find that? 125 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 5: Well? Do you think she was purposely harming him? 126 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 3: I can't say on any of them, other than the vegetables, 127 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 3: and she did that on purpose? 128 00:06:58,400 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 5: What happened? 129 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: He kept trying to reach for him, and she shoved 130 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 3: his hand to them when they were too hot and 131 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 3: held it there until it burned him. 132 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 5: Were there. 133 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 3: That's just what she said she did. 134 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 5: So what was your reaction. 135 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 3: I didn't trust her to make sure he didn't get hurt. 136 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 3: Even her own mother said she couldn't handle raising the child. 137 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 4: The situation at home with Tabitha only continued to unravel. 138 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 3: I had come in from working and my kid was 139 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 3: sitting on the counter. He was a couple months old, 140 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 3: maybe before the house right after the house barn, and 141 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 3: I couldn't find Tabby anywhere, and she was locked in 142 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 3: the bathroom. After I got the door opened, she was 143 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 3: sitting in the bathroom in a pull of her own blood. 144 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 3: She was trying to kill herself. 145 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 5: How was she doing? 146 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 3: She had a pair of scissors hacking away at herself. 147 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 5: What did you do? 148 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: I took the scissors from her and bandaged her wrist up. 149 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 3: Tried to get her to go to the hospital and 150 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: she refused to say and they put her on a sideboard, 151 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 3: and I tried to get her to just let me 152 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 3: and her move to Alaska at. 153 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 5: That point, so what did you actually do? 154 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 3: I put her in the truck and was going out 155 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: the driveway try and get her to go to the hospital. 156 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 5: Did you have any intensions of moving at that point? 157 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: Yes, I was going to move her to Alaska because 158 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 3: she said she couldn't deal with my mother anymore. 159 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 5: Why didn't you go to. 160 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 3: She said, we had no money and didn't have no 161 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 3: way to get there, and it we'd be better off 162 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 3: to stay there where we had the roof over our head. 163 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 5: And so you agreed that, Yes, I didn't you to do. 164 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 3: I didn't want to take the chance of being broke 165 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 3: with no roof over my head, and I didn't never 166 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 3: have the financials backing to do what I wanted to do. 167 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 5: Do you have any regrets over that? 168 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 3: Yes? I do. 169 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 4: During one of Tabitha's quote fits, George Wagner testified that 170 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 4: she hurt their son while changing his diaper. It's important 171 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 4: to note that Tabitha Clayter deny any abuse towards her son. 172 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 3: Tabby was in my room changing his diaper and he 173 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 3: was wailing, which for some reason, she can't change the 174 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: diapers out of whaling, and I went to find out 175 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: what was wrong with him. So she was kind of 176 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 3: like holding him down, telling him to quit kicking and stuff, 177 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 3: and being I think overly pushy with him. So I 178 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 3: told her to calm down, quit yelling out, even I'll 179 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 3: do it, and she got mad and tried to swing 180 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 3: around and bumped his head off the wall. So I 181 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 3: took from Tabby and gave him the Hannah. After that, 182 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: Tabby got mad and stormed out of the house and 183 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: went out on the patio, and then I went out 184 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 3: try and calm her down, and she was doing her 185 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 3: normal fits, yelling and screaming and hollering. And about that time, 186 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 3: my mother came home. 187 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 5: Because your mother wasn't there, So your mother came home. 188 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 3: She tried to put herself in the middle of our argument, 189 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 3: and I told her it was not her business, and 190 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: she went in the house after I yelled out her. 191 00:09:55,120 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 3: A couple of times after that, I I calm and 192 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 3: ta you down. Usually I can get her to calm down. 193 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 3: Sometimes a huggle work, but not generally. I tried to 194 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 3: hug her and she bit me. And after she bit me, 195 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 3: she hit me with a board and took off out 196 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 3: through the driveway. So I said to hell with it 197 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 3: and went in the house. 198 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 4: After a few hours of looking, georgeaid he found Tabitha 199 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 4: at a truck stop several miles away. Their relationship continued 200 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 4: to deteriorate and ended when he found out Tabitha was 201 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 4: still in her relationship with her friend's father. 202 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 3: After six weeks, I found out that she wasn't trying 203 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 3: to fix the things. She was still screwing her best 204 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: friend's dad, which was from the beginning that I talked about, 205 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 3: and I went to her house in the middle of 206 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 3: the night to tell her young, I'm done. 207 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 5: With it, really, what did you do? 208 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 3: As a result, after that, we got divorced. 209 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 4: Here's Jeff and Stephanie. 210 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 7: Without physical evidence, this case is built on a lot 211 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 7: of emotion, and so I think what George Wadener and 212 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 7: his attorneys are trying to do is paint a human 213 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 7: picture of George Wagner. You know, they've seen the jury 214 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 7: has heard a lot of horrible things about George and 215 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 7: his family, and so to hear something a little more 216 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 7: vulnerable and makes them sound more sensitive. 217 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 5: I think they're thinking, can't hurt. 218 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: The one detail that I heard was his account of 219 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 2: his relationship with hannahme Rodin, And according to George, they 220 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 2: were very close and they were dear friends, and that 221 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: they both were very self conscious about their weight and 222 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: they would talk about that and discuss that. Again, is 223 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 2: this just an attempt to show him as a vulnerable 224 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: human being or is this just a show. 225 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 4: We're going to take a break. We'll be back in 226 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 4: a moment. After a brief lunch break, George Wagner returned 227 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 4: to the stand and calmly continued to distance himself from 228 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 4: his own family. After making new hunting friends, George said 229 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 4: he made up his mind to leave his family's criminal life. 230 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 3: James became a really close friend of mine. I kind 231 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 3: of looked at Rick as a second father figure. 232 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 5: Why do you say Rick was a second fun. 233 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 3: He always gave me a lot of advice growing up. 234 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 5: Was that advice different than what you'd received her? 235 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 3: Yes? Explain it, God, He basically told me not to 236 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: continue down the road I was going doing the stuff 237 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 3: that my father did. 238 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 5: And did you take that advice to her? 239 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 3: It took a long time to get it completely out 240 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 3: of my system, but yes, Well. 241 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 5: When did you start taking his advice to her? 242 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 3: Around the time that me and Tabby got married? 243 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 5: And you talked earlier about when you and Tabby got 244 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 5: married and you'd like to drink and have a good 245 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 5: time down at Big Bear. Yes, once your son was born, 246 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 5: did that change? 247 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 3: I gave all my party in days up increasingly? 248 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 4: George said he spent time with Rick and James hunting 249 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 4: a lot. This also angered his mother Angela. 250 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 5: And how did that affect yours? 251 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 3: It was always a fighting argument about me spending time 252 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: with them and her want me to stay and do 253 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: everything she wanted on the farm. 254 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 5: So you talked to earlier about how mister Rogan was 255 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 5: giving you advice? Yes? And did that ever? Did his 256 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 5: advice ever? Think him? 257 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 3: And one point in time, yes, he basically tried to 258 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 3: steer me away from where my father was leading me. 259 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 3: Explain what you mean that it was going to end 260 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 3: up badly one day with the theft and the fuel 261 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 3: and the loads, and I'd always have to look over my. 262 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 5: Shoulder and all right, So what did you do? 263 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 3: Eventually? I quit? 264 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 5: Quit? 265 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 3: What everything my dad taught me about? 266 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 5: How old were you when that was late twenty fourteen? 267 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 5: Late twenty fourteen. 268 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 4: Yes, George said, as he looked to change his own 269 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 4: life around, Hannah Roden became more of a present to him, 270 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 4: and that he considered her a close family member having Hannah. 271 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 3: Round, Yes, she was like a baby sister. 272 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 5: What was her relationship with your father? 273 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: Her and dad was all your goofing off with each other? 274 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 5: How about Hannah and your mother? 275 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 3: My mother and Hannah used to do a lot of 276 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 3: stuff together. They bake all the time, cook all the time. 277 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 3: She followed her around like a love sick puppy dog. 278 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 5: Basically, you thought they had a good relationship. Yes, Did 279 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 5: you ever know all the time when the relationship soured in. 280 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: Any way between my mom and Hannah? 281 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 5: Yes? 282 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 3: Not really. 283 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 5: What about between her and Jake. 284 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 3: Got to where they bought and argued a lot. 285 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 5: Did there come a time when they separated? 286 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 3: Yes, my brother and Hannah daylight and dark to each other. 287 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 5: What do you mean? 288 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 3: I didn't think she'd ever leave him. But they also 289 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: didn't get along because Hannah wanted to do her things 290 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 3: and Jake didn't want. 291 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 5: To What kind of things did Hannah want to do? 292 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 3: Hang out with her friends, do normal teenage stuff. She 293 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 3: kind of missed out of being a teenager when she 294 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 3: got with Jake. 295 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 8: Major developments today in Pike County, George Wagner the fourth 296 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 8: took to the stand in his own murder trial. Wagner 297 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 8: the Fourth is claiming he never took part in or 298 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 8: had any knowledge of the killings of the Rodent family. 299 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 4: After hours of testimony detailing the toxic Wagner family dynamics 300 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 4: and his own frustrations with his family, defense attorney John 301 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 4: Parker turned to the April twenty sixteen murders. When asked 302 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 4: by his lawyer if he knew where his family quote 303 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 4: stashed the murder weapons, George pleaded ignorance. 304 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 6: Now you heard the testimony and saw the exhibits of 305 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 6: the concrete buckets that were taken off that Guseba, Yes, 306 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 6: had you ever seen those before? 307 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 4: No? 308 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 5: Did you know they were on the goosebar? 309 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: No? 310 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 5: Did you know anything about the content? No. 311 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 4: George Wagner testified that he knew all of the Rodents 312 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 4: well and liked them. He then went on to explain 313 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 4: some of the connections between the two families. 314 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 5: What was the relationship between Chris Senior and fun and 315 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 5: how would you describe their relationship? Like, right before the. 316 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,359 Speaker 3: Murders really close friends? 317 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 5: What do you mean by really close close friends? 318 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 3: Business partners? 319 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 5: Business partners at one? 320 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 3: Well? Really, I would say more like I really wouldn't 321 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: call it sact business partners. I would say why my 322 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 3: dad was the tag along? 323 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 5: Okay, what kind of business were they? 324 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 3: From my understanding of it, Yes, my dad was trying 325 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: to help Chris with the growing in the marijuana. 326 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 4: Well, George knew all of the Rodents. Frankie was the 327 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 4: one he was closest with. 328 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 5: Did you still consider him a friend? 329 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: I still considered being one of my best friends. Yes. 330 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 4: Then George responded to the many witnesses that implicated him 331 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 4: in the twenty sixteen murders. He denied taking part in 332 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 4: or having knowledge of the murders. As his mother and 333 00:16:57,920 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 4: brother had claimed for. 334 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 5: Testimony from Jake. Correct, Yes, you heard your mom testify right? Yes, 335 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 5: was in April of twenty sixteen, all right? Or March 336 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 5: of twenty sixteen or going all the way back to 337 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 5: January sixteen? Were you aware at any time that Jake 338 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 5: and your dad and your mom weren't planning to kill 339 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 5: the roses? 340 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 8: No? 341 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 5: Was that ever discussed with you? 342 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 3: No? 343 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 5: Did you have any idea that was going to happen? 344 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 4: No? 345 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 5: Did you know of any reason that your family wanted 346 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 5: to kill the roses? No? Did Jake ever come to 347 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 5: you and explain what was going to happen? 348 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 2: No? 349 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 5: Did Jake ever ask you to help in any way? 350 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 6: No? 351 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 5: What about your mother? 352 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 3: No? 353 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 5: What about your father? No? If one of them had 354 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 5: come to you and ask you to be involved in 355 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 5: something like this, what do you think you would have done? 356 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 3: At first? I don't think I would have believed it. 357 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 3: I just don't. I never would have believed my family 358 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: would be capable of doing something of us magnitude. 359 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 5: Well, you've described in some detail the thefts the artisans 360 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 5: that your family participated in. Yes, other illegal activities, yes, 361 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 5: including yourself. Yes, So why didn't you think they could 362 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 5: do something like this. 363 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 3: Theft is one thing, murder is an entirely different thing. 364 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 5: So if you had done they were planning, we're talking 365 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 5: about it, we're even discussing it. What would have been 366 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 5: what would have been your reaction or what. 367 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 3: Would you have done? I don't know exactly how I 368 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 3: would have never let it happen. 369 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 5: What would you have done to try to stop it? 370 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 3: I can't honestly say that the one way or another, 371 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 3: I would have never let it happen. 372 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 4: Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now Local twelve. 373 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: I personally was surprised that the defense specifically said, were 374 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: you there, did you do anything? Did you know about 375 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,959 Speaker 1: ahead of time? When did you find out that they 376 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: were guilty or that they had actually participated? His answer 377 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: was not until my brother pleaded guilty and I read 378 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: his proper and even then he didn't believe it that 379 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: he says he didn't believe it. So, yeah, I mean 380 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: it was it was stunning to hear that after everything 381 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: we've heard about him wanting to kill Ryan Scheider and 382 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: the BCI agent and him on the tapes saying, oh, 383 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: we've got to get a lawyer. We get it the 384 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: best lawyer. His mother saying I'll take the fall for it. 385 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall 386 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: for it, which he says he never said. So, yeah, 387 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: I mean it now becomes a case of who do 388 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: you believe, Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial 389 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: evidence or George. 390 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 4: On the night of the murderers, George Wagner cleimed he 391 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 4: was with his son and father, Billy, before heading to bed. 392 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 5: Well, what did you do the day before? 393 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 3: The night before one of the things went up on 394 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 3: the hill, took care of the animals. Then my dad 395 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 3: came down, brought my kid doughnuts again, which he never 396 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 3: would stop doing. And then my kid didn't want to believe, 397 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: so he stayed with my kid. 398 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 5: And did you ever leave to go up and commit 399 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 5: these murders? 400 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 4: No? 401 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 5: Did you know that Jake and your dad had left? 402 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 4: No? 403 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 5: How do you explain it? 404 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 3: I just didn't know they left. 405 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 5: Did you go to bed day? Did you go to 406 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 5: sleep that night? Yes? 407 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 4: George says he woke up the next morning, made coffee 408 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 4: and went with Jake to tear down a structure on 409 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 4: his grandfather's property. 410 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 3: When I got back to the house, the news was 411 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 3: saying that there had been people killed on Union Hill 412 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 3: and my dad was freaking out, saying he couldn't get 413 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 3: a hold of Chris Senior, and where was Jake. Jake 414 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 3: was outside on the phone, right, where was your mother? 415 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 3: The mud room? Believe right? 416 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 5: So what was your reaction? 417 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 3: I was trying to ask my dad what was really 418 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 3: on the news and what was going on, and he 419 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 3: was still freaking out, saying Chris would an answer the phone. 420 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 3: And then Jake come in and said that Andrew Carson 421 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 3: had told him that Hannah and Frankie and everybody had 422 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: been killed. 423 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 5: What was your reaction? 424 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 3: I really don't know how to put it into words. 425 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 5: Take him minute down the best you can. 426 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 3: It was more heartbreaking and more of a trauma than 427 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 3: I've ever been through in my life. 428 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 5: So what did you do? 429 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 3: I ended up getting on my fourwheeler and going up 430 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 3: the hill, up the. 431 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 5: Hill behind your farm. Yes, why did you do that? 432 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 3: I always go out in the woods. Why I need 433 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 3: to calm down or need a little bit of therapy? 434 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 5: And how long did you stay? 435 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 2: That? 436 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 3: A couple hours? Maybe when I come back down Samansa. 437 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 3: Fred had called me a little after her and my 438 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 3: ex wife, Taviy called me. 439 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 5: What was Jake doing? 440 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: He was sitting in the living room, kind of like 441 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 3: a day. 442 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 5: What was your dad? 443 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 3: He was still in the living room and just kind 444 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 3: of sitting there talking to Jake, and Jake really wasn't responding. 445 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 5: What was your mother doing? 446 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 3: I remember correctly, she was in the kitchen with the kids. 447 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 4: George said, despite what others had testified, he never discussed 448 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 4: the murderers with his family afterwards. 449 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 5: Did your dad ever talk to you in those following 450 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 5: days about the murder? 451 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:30,239 Speaker 3: No? 452 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 5: Did your brother Jake ever talk to you at any 453 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 5: time about the murder? No? Did your mother ever talk 454 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 5: to you at any time about the murder? 455 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 6: No? 456 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 5: Did you ever overhear them talking amongst themselves? No? Did 457 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 5: you have any clue your family was involved in this? 458 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 3: No? 459 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 4: George said, he and his family attended the road and funerals, 460 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 4: and his parents and Jake acted quote normal. 461 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 5: Did you ever talk about the murders on the way No? 462 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 5: How about on the way home? 463 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 2: No? 464 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 5: What was what was your dad's demeanor? 465 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 3: Acted like my dad? 466 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 5: What about Jake? 467 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 3: Jake just acted like Jake? He doesn't hardly ever show emotion. 468 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 5: Well, you saw him testify here right, Yes. Did you 469 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 5: see him laugh and smile and smirk? 470 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 4: Yes? 471 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 5: Had you ever seen him act like that? 472 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 3: No? 473 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 5: Never, never in my life. You said he doesn't show emotion, No, 474 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 5: what do you mean by that? 475 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 3: He won't even let you give him a hug. 476 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 4: George said later that his family went on a trip 477 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 4: to Alaska in May of twenty seventeen, and on the 478 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 4: way home were stopped and interrogated. 479 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 5: Did you, at this point in time know if your 480 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,479 Speaker 5: family had any involvement in these murders? 481 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 3: No? 482 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,959 Speaker 5: Were you upset that BCI was still looking at your 483 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 5: family after this time? 484 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 3: Yes? 485 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 5: I was very upset. 486 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 3: Because I was under the assumption that they were just 487 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 3: trying to point the finger at anybody they could do 488 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 3: so they wouldn't continue to be like Facebook topics was 489 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 3: saying that they didn't know what they were doing for 490 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 3: their job. I thought they were just trying to frame 491 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 3: my mom and brother. 492 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 4: George said his interrogation by BCI agents at the border 493 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 4: started friendly enough, but then they began accusing him and 494 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 4: his family of killing the Rodents. 495 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 3: If I remember correctly, They started off talking about hunting. 496 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 5: And vision okay, And then then. 497 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 3: They started asking questions about receipts and shell casings and 498 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: shoes and. 499 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 5: Did they show you any photographs or any documents? Did 500 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 5: they showed you? 501 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 3: Yes, they showed me pictures of shellcasing, a picture, I 502 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 3: believe a picture of Walmart receipt and a pair of shoes. 503 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 5: And what were what kind of questions were they asking. 504 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 3: They were saying that my mom bought the pair of shoes, 505 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 3: and the receipts showed she bought them, and that those 506 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 3: were those shoes that was used. And then they said 507 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 3: that they found a showcasing of the crime scene that 508 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 3: matched my father's gun. 509 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 5: And what was your reaction on it? 510 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 3: I didn't believe what they were saying. 511 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 5: Were you told that your family was involved. 512 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 3: They accused my brother and my mother of it. 513 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 5: Yes, what was your reaction? 514 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 3: I was just upset about it. I was emostly distraught 515 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 3: that they would accuse my family. 516 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 5: So you're in this interview or interrogation in Montana. What 517 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 5: was your understanding at the end of the interview. 518 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 3: At the end of it, yeah, my understanding of it 519 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 3: was they were either going to call me a suspect 520 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 3: or a witness whichever they decided, and that they wanted 521 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 3: me to basically spy on my brother. 522 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 5: Did you agree to do that? Yes? Did you ever 523 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 5: have a conversation with your brother after this Montana? 524 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 3: Yes? 525 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 5: Explain him. 526 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 3: I asked my brother if he had had anything to 527 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 3: do with it, or if he knew who did When? 528 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 5: Did you have that conversation? 529 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 3: When we got back from Montana was on the farm 530 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 3: reloading everything. 531 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 5: Is anybody else around? No? 532 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 3: It was just me and him. 533 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 5: What was his response? 534 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 3: He swore up and down he didn't know who did 535 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 3: it and they didn't have nothing to do with it. 536 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 5: Did you accept that? 537 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 3: I had no reason not to believe him? 538 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 4: Let's stop here for another break. Despite Jak and his parents' denials, 539 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 4: George said, the rumors of their involvement in the murderers 540 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 4: followed them to Alaska. 541 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 5: All right, well, let's talk about that for a second. 542 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 5: You're up in Alaska, right, Yes? Did these crimes? Were 543 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 5: they publicized in Alaska? 544 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 4: Yes? 545 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 3: How's that it ended up being broadcast on the local 546 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 3: news channels up there? What was broadcast that my family 547 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 3: were subjects of interest and anybody who had information I 548 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 3: should call this number? 549 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 5: How did that make. 550 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 3: Not happy about it. I h when I first got 551 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 3: to a last guy, I went to Sportsman's warehouse to 552 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 3: buy me a new clock, where I sold mine before 553 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 3: I left and h they sold it to it no problems. 554 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 3: Then when I went back after that, they refused to 555 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 3: tell me anything. 556 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 4: Even now, George says he can't believe his brother and 557 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 4: mother admitted to the killings. 558 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 5: What did you think? 559 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 3: I really didn't know how to take her to want 560 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 3: to think. I first thought my brother had just gone 561 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 3: crazy sitting in jail. Why did you think that my 562 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 3: brother is not a social person and doesn't get along 563 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: well with people. I couldn't understand how my brother would 564 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 3: be capable of doing something like this, especially after he'd 565 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 3: swore to me but he had nothing to do with it. 566 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 5: That make you feel. 567 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 3: Heartbroken, betrayed for the fact that what he did to 568 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 3: Hand and Frankie and their family, and for the fact 569 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 3: that I believed him and I took up for him. 570 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 4: George says he had a similar reaction when his mother 571 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 4: pled guilty. 572 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 3: I was heartbroken over it and felt betrayed, and I 573 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 3: just couldn't believe that they were capable of it. 574 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 5: You still have a hard time, Conte. 575 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 3: I have a hard time dealing, was it? 576 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 5: Yes? Now you heard your brother come in here and 577 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 5: testify that you were part of the play. 578 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 3: Yes, I heard that. 579 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 5: Is that true? 580 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 3: No? 581 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 5: Did you help him in any way before the murders? No? 582 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 5: Did you help him in any way after? 583 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 2: No? 584 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 5: Did you help him build that false bed on the truck? No? 585 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 5: Did you crawl in that truck? No? Were you up 586 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 5: on Union Hill Road that night? 587 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 8: No? 588 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 5: Did you help him get rid of the clothing afterwards? 589 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 2: No? 590 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 5: Did you help him dig that hole? No? Did you 591 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 5: help him get rid of the guns and other things 592 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 5: that were found on the concrete bucket? You heard your 593 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 5: mother testify too, Yes? How did it make you feel 594 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 5: to have your mother testify against you? 595 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 3: It was emotionally hard, considering she wouldn't even look at me. 596 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 4: After George's denials, he said he didn't believe what Jake 597 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 4: and his mother, Angela's rationale was for the murders. 598 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 5: You heard your brother testify about he thought was being 599 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 5: sexually amused. Yes, same thing for your mother. Yes. Did 600 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 5: you at any time ever suspect it was being sexually amused? No? 601 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 5: What was your reaction when you heard your brother and 602 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 5: your mother testify. 603 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 3: But I don't see how they could ever believe something 604 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 3: like that, because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christina and their 605 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 3: family would never do anything to a child. 606 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 5: Do you know why your family did this? 607 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 3: Can't even begin to imagine why. I've tried for the 608 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 3: past year and a half to figure it out. 609 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 5: Now that you know Jake has pled guilty, what do 610 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 5: you think of it? 611 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 3: I really don't even like calling him my brother anymore. 612 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:17,959 Speaker 5: What is that? 613 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 3: I just I'm ashamed to know that my family would 614 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 3: do something like this. 615 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 5: What about your mother? 616 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 3: I have the same feeling towards her. 617 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 4: Here again, Investigative journalist James Pilcher. 618 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: He owns up everything short of being part of the merch. 619 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: He owned up to all the criminal activity, even on 620 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: his own outside of his family. He owned up to everything. 621 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: But he said, I would never kill anybody. I would 622 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: never kill anybody for his niece. He would never kill 623 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: anybody for his own son. He would never even think 624 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: about it. And he said, if I had known about it, 625 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: I would have tried to account it. So now if 626 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: I'm a durer or my head is swimming. 627 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 4: On that. Next time for more information on the case, 628 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 4: and relevant photos. Follow us on Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios. 629 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 4: The Pikedon Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane, 630 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 4: Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. 631 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 4: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music by Jared Aston. 632 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 4: The Pikedon Masker is a production of iHeart Radio and 633 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 4: KAT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the 634 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 4: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 635 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 4: your favorite shows.