1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane. 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: Never told you protection of I Heart Radio. And it's 3 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: time today for another female first, which means we are 4 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: joined by our good friend and co worker Eves. Hey, y'all, Hi, 5 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: how how are you? We haven't seen you in a while. 6 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: We're in our virtual studios and you have moved, right, 7 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: I have moved. Um, it's been a wild ride. So 8 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, if I sound any different, that's why I 9 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: am in a new room. I have a new recording 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: set up here. But um, I'm lucky to have moved. 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: I can't complain that I'm in a place where I 12 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: can stay and I can sleep, and I have shelter 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: over my head, so all is well in that regard. 14 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: Of course, There's a lot more going on in the world, 15 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: and I'm all involved in that world. But the small 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: container of a new home feels pretty nice. I like it. 17 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: There's sort of a running joke during pandemic times when 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: people are interviewed, um are on these kinds of things, 19 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: they always have books behind them because it's, you know, 20 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: showing off that you're smart, or it's just it looks 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: nice and you have books behind you. And so do I. 22 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: But yours look a much more clean than mind you 23 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: for someone who has just moved and I have been 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: here for several years. In my world, it's like it's 25 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: gonna topple a minute. Don't give me too much credit 26 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: because the only thing you see is the books. And 27 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: the books are one of the first things that I organized, 28 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: because it was so easy to just say, Okay, here's 29 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: a box of books. Put it on the shelf, so 30 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: like that's in order, and it looks nice, but you 31 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: know that's order a monkey chaos. It's just really satisfying 32 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: to get your books out and were like putting it 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: all in order how you want to do it, whether 34 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: it's like aesthetically or alphabetically, and then you're like, oh, 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: look I've got books. Yeah, so I promise you is 36 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: not about me looking smart smarter, Yes, sure, just to 37 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: put that out there. My ego has nothing to do 38 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: with the books behind me. Sure. Sure. It is a 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: very nice frame. I used to do a lot of videos, 40 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: so I appreciate there's books on one side kind of offset. 41 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: And then you've got your microphone. Thank you. Yeah, I 42 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: didn't expect a composition compliment, but I'm always always ready 43 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: with that. You know what, Samantha, you look good too. 44 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: You've got a blur. She's got the skype blur going. 45 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: I'm just the blur. I don't I don't actually want 46 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: you to see what's behind me, because there's nothing about 47 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: behind me other than maybe some concerned about like how 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: are you living right now, Samantha, what is wrong with you? 49 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: So I just blur it all out and all you 50 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: can see is color. Hopefully I stand out in that 51 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: brightness that might say something about your how you deal 52 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,119 Speaker 1: with emotions. Yes, I just want to blow it out. 53 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to get to in depth. I was. 54 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: You're getting pretty deep right now. I know. I know, 55 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: well it was my job for a while. Um. I know, 56 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: listeners know I'm very annoying when it comes to like 57 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: fonts and transitions and movies composition. So I gotta let 58 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: it out sometimes I feel you like I'm mad at it, 59 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: um and it kind of Books is a good segue 60 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: into the person we're talking about today. Actually, so can 61 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: you tell us who did you bring? Yes, True books 62 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: is a good segue. Today we'll be talking about Mary 63 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: se Cole, who has a very very interesting history and biography. 64 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: So I brought her to the table today because her 65 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: autobiography has been considered the first one that was written 66 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: by a black woman in Britain. But there is a 67 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: huge asterisk on that. I'll go ahead and say the 68 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: name of the autobiography, which is the Wonderful Adventures of 69 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: Mrs skel in many Lands, which is a great like 70 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: a great title. UM as a person who's an aspiring 71 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: adventurer and like just loves the idea of travel, and 72 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: there are so much culture and history and just social 73 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: implications that are wrapped up in travel based on like 74 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: who had access to actually be able to travel. UM 75 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: was super interested in, you know, the outward appearance of 76 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: like who she was. UM. But yeah, like I said, 77 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: there's a huge asterisk on this one because of the 78 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: controversy that surrounds the truth of her autobiography and what 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: actually happened in her story. UM. So there's a lot 80 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: we'll get into in that respect. UM. And I think 81 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: that ties in well to the thing that we usually 82 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: say in these conversations, which is the disclaimer around what 83 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: the first is, what a first means, And in Mary's 84 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: Sea Cole's case, a lot of people wouldn't even say 85 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: that it's the first, um, because of her history and 86 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: her ancestry, you know, depending on what side you talked 87 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: to in this debate. UM. But yeah, I don't want 88 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: to get to ahead of myself, but I'll just say that. 89 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: I just think it's a great opportunity to talk about 90 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: what a first actually means, you know, what it means 91 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: to have sorts of debates like this when it comes 92 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: to the historical record and biographies. Yeah, I don't want 93 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: to go I wanta go too too deep into that yet. 94 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,559 Speaker 1: I think I need to actually get into her story first. 95 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: I love the title. I think that's the first thing. 96 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: I was like, Oh my gosh, this sname steam so fantastical. 97 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: But yeah, that so you're reading more about it, I 98 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: was like, oh, that's a lot of intensity in that. Yeah, 99 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: I was. Um, I've been reading it on and off 100 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: the book since you suggested it, Youse, and I love, like, 101 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: not even the chapter titles, but at least from this 102 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: or so I was reading it, UM had like sub 103 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: chapter titles of what happens in the book, and they're excellent, 104 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: and you know, I don't know how much of it's 105 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: true or not, but every king. I was like, this 106 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: woman did so much right right, oh man traveled everywhere. Yeah, 107 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: the chapter titles are like very descriptive of what happened 108 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 1: in her travels. Um so, and then there are also 109 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: a lot of questionable fiction. There's a lot of questionable 110 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: diction in the way that she refers to people and 111 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: refers to herself. Um. Yeah. So it's one of those 112 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: things like, well, you know, she gets to tell her 113 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: own story, So there's the line between she's telling her 114 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: own story and what actually happened, um and the bias 115 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: that can come in in a person's own story, but 116 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: also the truth of a person's own story that's coming 117 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: from their own voice. Um yeah. So on that note, 118 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: I guess I could say that she's been you know, 119 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: kind of pit it in the same category as Florence Nightingale. 120 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: And throughout the book, this debate that you know that 121 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: has come up in terms of her biography is that 122 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: she never called herself black. So, going back to what 123 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: I said, she's considered to have written the first autobiography 124 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: by a black woman, Well, she never called herself black. 125 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: She called herself creole, and she had a mixed race 126 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 1: ancestry and and I'm sure that you read this because 127 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: you were reading the autobiography Annie, But she says in 128 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: it in one place, I have good Scotch blood coursing 129 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: in my veins, and that comes near the beginning of it. 130 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: So she's very clear about, you know, her position on this. 131 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: From the very beginning. She would describe herself as yellow um, 132 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: and she was fair complexioned, and um. She had white 133 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: father and a mother who was of mixed race ancestry 134 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: as well, whom she called a creole as well. So um. 135 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: There were also descriptions in the Book of Black People 136 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: that where she specifically like barer parts where she says 137 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: something like, while the good for nothing black cooks instead 138 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: of lending me their a would standby and laugh with 139 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: all their teeth. Just want to call in here that obviously, 140 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm using these quotes out of context. So if you 141 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: would like to read the book yourself, of that would 142 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: be great to do so you can see the lines 143 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: that come around these, because I can't quote the whole 144 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: book verbatim. Um, But there are a lot of instances 145 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: where she others people and it's sort of clear that 146 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: she's not considering them to be within the same group 147 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: as her UM. But there are also instances in the 148 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: book where she seems to be recognizing racial discrimination that 149 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: she faced and commenting on that and commenting on issues 150 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: like slavery, even though that didn't happen so much. But 151 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: all of that said, it is just I would love 152 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: to preface the conversation of the conversations that are around her, 153 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 1: of all the myths and the myth making that has 154 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: been happening and quote unquote campaigns around what her legacy 155 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: should look like and what people who are supporters of 156 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: Florence Nightingale want her legacy to be about. So just 157 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: that's just a preface, and we could actually to talk 158 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: about her life and her autobiography now, yeah, yeah, and 159 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: that's a great preference, and I know we'll get to 160 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: this probably at the end, but there has been sort 161 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: of a very recent um campaign, as you say, are 162 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: just sort of recognizing of Mary se Cole, and a 163 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: lot of conversations around that are happening right now. So yeah, 164 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: and always there are always conversations about, Okay, what were 165 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: the missing or identified? Are ones that are legacies that 166 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: were pushed to the bottom because of a person's race, 167 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: because of Mary Seacol situation was a black woman, which 168 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: is a conversation that's going around, Well, was her history 169 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: suppressed or hidden because she was a black woman working 170 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: within this imperialist space that was Britain and bringing her 171 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: history back up in order to recognize that. And on 172 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: the other hand, people just crediting her saying that you know, 173 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: she was three quarters white. I'll just start by saying 174 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: that she was born in Kingston, Jamaica in eighteen o five, 175 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: so her mother lived there. Her father was white, he 176 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: was from Scotland. There's a little bit of discrepancy over 177 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: what his profession actually or his occupation actually was. He's 178 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: been said that he was an officer in the British Army, 179 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: but there are conversations around who he actually was. But 180 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: he was white. Um. And then there was her mother, 181 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: who was, like I said earlier, of mixed rass ancestry 182 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: um and Mary called her mother creole like her. She 183 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: supposedly learned her nursing and all her business skills from 184 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: her mother, who ran a boarding house in Jamaica which 185 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: was called Blundell Hall. And so yellow fever was like 186 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: a common disease in the Caribbean at the time, and 187 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: her mother probably learned the herbal practices that she practiced 188 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: with one people, and she used on people from enslaved women, 189 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: who in turn learned from their ancestors. So there was 190 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: that passing down of herbal medicinal knowledge Um and she 191 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: married Secol. Herself considered, like I said earlier, consider herself 192 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: Creole in British rather than Black. And in her autobiography 193 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: she didn't talk much about the socio political, the whole 194 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: climate that was happening around her um as she was 195 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: living and working in Jamaica, like the uprose scenes that 196 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: were happening that enslaved people were organizing, or the abolition 197 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: of the slave trade in slavery which happened in the 198 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:31,239 Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds. But she was aware of the situation 199 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: with slavery in the US, and the Um mentioned the 200 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: people who were escaping and commending them. So when she 201 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: was born and just for us to talk about the climate, 202 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: at the time she was born, slavery was still in 203 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: practice in Jamaica, and in fact, enslaved people outnumbered white 204 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: people greatly. On in Jamaica there were some free black 205 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: people and then there were creoles on the island as well, 206 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: people of mixed rightes ancestry, and Mary herself was born 207 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: free and she had this pride to be a British subject, 208 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: and she was committed to the idea of empire. She 209 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: really wanted to go to London when she was a child, 210 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: and she did end up doing that for the first 211 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: time somewhere early in her life. And she's pretty she's 212 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: pretty uh what is nebulous is the word. She's pretty 213 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: vague about the details of her early life. In her autobiography, 214 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 1: she kind of breezes through those points, like I'm trying 215 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: to remember. What she said in her autobiography was something like, 216 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: we don't need to mention my age, Like she she 217 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: kind of didn't want her age to come up when 218 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: she was talking about when she went to London. Yes, 219 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: she even says something like give me a widow, give 220 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: me that right. Not it was very uh, very yeah, 221 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: it was. She didn't want it to be said, but um, 222 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: it was in her earlier years when she went to London. 223 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: She ended up going there for some time and then 224 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: she left. Um. Oh, but I will mention that there 225 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: was a part where she says she was teased or 226 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: made fun of because of her complexion, along with a 227 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: companion who was there with her, who she said was 228 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: a little bit darker than her. Specifically, she said, I 229 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: am only a little brown, a few shades duskier than 230 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: the brunettes whom you all admire so much. But my 231 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: companion was very dark and affair, if I can apply 232 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: the term to her subject for their rude wit so UM. 233 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 1: She talks about that experience, UM when she went to London. 234 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: A year later, she went back to London, UM. And 235 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: then she brought back with her a bunch of West 236 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: Indian spices and homemade jams, and she stayed there for 237 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: a few years. This time so she spent a lot 238 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: of her earlier years traveling in the Caribbean and Central America, which, 239 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: as I said earlier, it means that she had access 240 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: to be able to travel to all those different places. UM. 241 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: And she ran taverns, and she ran boarding houses, and 242 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: along the way learned about medicine. UM. And she leaves 243 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: out a lot of detail in the autobiography. It's actually 244 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: of those first years. She details more of her later 245 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: years in the autobiography, but there, even with the details 246 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 1: that are there are often dubious UM and have been 247 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: called into question after it was after the autobiography was published. 248 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: So the detailed chronology of her life and exactly how 249 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: she made a living at this time and this time 250 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: and all the business ventors that she was in and 251 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: what she actually sold, what she actually did, um has 252 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: been called into question. But in her travel she did 253 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: sell fugus, and she did help her mother and ran 254 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: boarding houses and worked with her brother, and there's a 255 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: lot of business ventors and and back and forth. One 256 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: of things that she sold that she was clearly involved in. 257 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, I was trying to do a timeline before this, 258 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: and I just got so confused and gave up and 259 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: essentially came to the conclusion she traveled a lot. Yeah, 260 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: and did a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah, that's basically like, yeah, 261 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: I think putting together like first it was this and 262 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: then she went to this place and then she went 263 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: to this place. Is it would be very hard to 264 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: do based on like because there are a lot of 265 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: things that she said in her own autobiography, the things 266 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: that other people said about her, quotes about her from 267 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: military personnel, and then the historians who have done work 268 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: on her, and um, Yeah, but she definitely did travel 269 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: a lot, and she was in Central America, she was 270 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: in England, and she she traveled. During her travel, she 271 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: did tend to people and did sell provisions. So she 272 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: did also Mary n One Sea Cole in eighteen thirty six. 273 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: He died not long after, he died in eighteen forty four. 274 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: And around the same time, like during these years, she 275 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: had some things happened to her, like her mother also died. 276 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: Her home and a boarding house caught on fire um 277 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: and she was able to bring back up the boarding 278 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: house bundle Hall, and was up and running with success 279 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: within a few years. But here's you know, she's still 280 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: traveling during this time. So in eighteen fifty she joined 281 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: her brother in present day Panama, and Panama at the 282 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: time saw a lot of travelers who were on their 283 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: way to the California Gold Rush, and she went there. 284 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: At the time. Before leaving, she had she talks about 285 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: in the book how she had all this clothing and 286 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: foods made, and all these jams and all the sausages. 287 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm making up sausages. I can't remember 288 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: all the foods she says she had, but she had 289 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of foods and was preparing things and Panama. 290 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: She sold supplies to travelers and she ran a boarding 291 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: house there where she served as a doctress, and that's 292 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: what she called herself. She didn't call herself a nurse. UM. 293 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: So she practiced in herbal medicine and followed in the 294 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: same path as her mom and actually talks in the book, 295 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: or says in the book how she admired her mom. 296 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: I can't remember the specific in which that she used, 297 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: but she looked up to her mom and says that 298 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: she wanted to follow on her path and that was 299 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: important to her. Yeah, yeah, I think I when I 300 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: was putting together her story, and you know, you start 301 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: with her mom was a respected had this boarding house 302 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: was respected. I don't know that she would use the 303 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: word doctress. But in medicine, practice medicine, and she um 304 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: very Segel kind of followed in those same steps. She 305 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: did those same things. Yeah, she did, and she got 306 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: a reputation for helping people, um who got in cholera. 307 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: She says in the book, she talks about a few 308 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: of her medicinal recipes, not too many of them, but 309 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: she talks about giving them water in which cinnamon had 310 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: been boiled. Um. She talks about to use mercury and 311 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: mustard poultices and plasters, but there's not a whole bunch 312 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: that's known about the exact recipes that she used for 313 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: her remedies. Um. And she also treated people who were 314 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: her in fights. And while she was in Hannamashi opened 315 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: a place called the British Hotel, which actually served as 316 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: a restaurant. And she also around this time when she 317 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: was in Central America, ran a woman only hotel. I 318 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: just want to put in here because I found it 319 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: really interesting. On the other podcast, Aid Your Savior, we 320 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: just did an episode on cinnamon. It was a classic 321 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: and mustard and those both have been used medicinally historically, 322 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: so I personally found that very interesting. Nice. Yeah, um uh, 323 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: there's a whole conversation about the the practices and the 324 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: medicines that she actually used on people and her being 325 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: discredited because of the practices that she used on people. 326 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: And she didn't have any formal nursing training, um and 327 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: things like that that we'll get into later. But um, 328 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: there are a few more um things that she used 329 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: that are listed in the book as well, um that 330 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: you could look up. Yeah, so it's super interesting mustard, 331 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: well oil, mustard the essential oil, and the mustard being 332 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: the thing that's helping. And yeah, imagine you you know 333 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: way more about that than I do anything that you 334 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: just Yeah, it was. It was really interesting because it's 335 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: not one of those things. Mustard is not something that 336 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,479 Speaker 1: comes to the forefront of my mind. And I've been 337 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: doing a food show for a while and almost everything 338 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: was used medicinally, um at some point, and mustard as 339 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: one that was like huh because it lasted for a 340 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: long time. People used mustard medicinally pretty like up into 341 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: the eight undreds. Yeah, I um, this really is unrelated 342 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: to the show at all, but I UM, I was 343 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: looking up mustard essential oil for unrelated reason why it 344 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with mary Sea coal. Um, just 345 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: because I was trying to figure out I one to 346 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: make it inhaler that like has properties like what Sabby 347 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: does for like the signings clearing, and um figured that 348 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: like mustard maybe how full and realizing that it was like, 349 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: um toxic in some ways. But anyway, that's like a 350 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: whole aside. Um. But yeah, really interesting. UM. So yeah, 351 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: anyway back to the story, I like this keep talking 352 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: about you should look into a Sabby. There was Sabby 353 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: smoke detector. Things really m h with Sabby smoke detector. 354 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: What is that? Well, I think it's for if if 355 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 1: you have trouble hearing, can't hear the Sabby smell, okay, 356 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: and kind of that feel, um, we'll wake you up. 357 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: It's you know, because you can't hear the alarm, then 358 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: you'll have that going on. This was Sabby was an 359 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: episode we did like three years ago. So this is 360 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: all very rusty dusty in the back of my brain. 361 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: But you know, maybe further research. But yes, we could 362 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: go on to the side about horse radish and mustard 363 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: and the Sabby products for a long time. But perhaps 364 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: let's get back to Mary's seek. We have some more 365 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: of our conversation with Ease, but first we have a 366 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. 367 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So she went back to Jamaica at 368 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: a point, and then back to Panama, and along the 369 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: way she continued to treat people and sell goods um 370 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: but when she learned about Britain's involvement in the Crimean War, 371 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: which took place from eighteen to eighteen fifty six, she 372 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: decided to volunteer her services. So, as the story goes, 373 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: she wanted to be among the pride and pomp of war. 374 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: I think she said something like along those lines in 375 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: her autobiography. But she wanted to volunteer her services and 376 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: eight people and soldiers and officers and what way that 377 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: she could during the war. But it's also been said 378 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: that her motives were more to make money as a 379 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: busy this woman, rather than to aid sick and injured soldiers. 380 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: So she was what was called a sutler or a 381 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: person who sold provisions to officers in the military. And 382 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: so she would sell food and alcohol to officers, and that's, 383 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, also part of her story and has been 384 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: debated her true motives for going over and joining the 385 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: war effort. But as she recounted in her autobiography, she 386 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: brought letters of reference from British officers in Kingston, and 387 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: people kept turning her down along the way when she 388 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: was asking to volunteer her services. Um there was Elizabeth Herbert, 389 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: who was recruiting nurses on behalf of her husband who 390 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: was the Secretary at war, who supposedly said that all 391 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: the nursing positions have been filled. So she went to 392 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: Turkey anyway, and apparently tried to join nurses but was 393 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: again turned down. And so there are others stories or 394 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: elements of the story in which she said that she 395 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: was turned down from a position because they would say 396 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: the position was filled, and the question was whether it 397 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: was about her race or not. Um. But in her 398 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: autobiography there is a part in there where she questions 399 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: whether her skin color had something to do with why 400 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: she kept being turned away and said, was it possible 401 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: that American prejudices against color had some root here? Did 402 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: these ladies shrink from accepting my aid because my blood 403 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: float beneath a somewhat duskier skin than There's also the 404 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: word dusky ear. That's the second time that I've said 405 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: that in the coats from her, and it's definitely an 406 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: interesting choice for darker dusk gear is definitely one of 407 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: those old, those old things. But um, yeah, that's just 408 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: an aside. So she she did decide to hit to 409 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: Balaklava and the Cromea herself, um, and she intended to 410 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: start the British Hotel. There was these cards or flyers 411 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: about it, and she wanted it to serve as a 412 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: mess table and comfortable quarters for sick and convalescent officers. 413 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 1: So it's set that because she was funding it with 414 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: her own money, she could only treat people who could 415 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: pay her um. But it's also, you know, the conversation 416 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: around that as well as that it was first and 417 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: foremost a business that really operated as a restaurant in 418 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: a store for officers who at the top had much 419 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: more money than soldiers. It could actually pay for all 420 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: the things that she was offering for purchase, so she did. 421 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: She didn't provide supplies and food to officers and also 422 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: spectators who came to see battles. Yeah, I guess wow, 423 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: all right, you know before Netflix, Uh interesting, Yeah, it 424 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: was the thing. And she's been described also as making 425 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: tea for wounded soldiers and tending to their wounds, and 426 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: she provided catering for events. So she talks about how 427 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: during her work she ran into British military personnel whom 428 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: she had already known from her time in Jamaica, and 429 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: many people referred to her as mother sa Cole and 430 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: viewed her favorably. So when the war ended, she went 431 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: back to England with little money um and not in 432 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: the greatest health. And she talks about how other people 433 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: returned to England with more money, but she she wasn't 434 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: set up that way, um, and she had to declare 435 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: bankruptcy when she went back to England. And there are, um, 436 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: there's information and the press um a little bit in 437 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: articles about the bankruptcy proceedings um, which were possibly because 438 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: of a venture with a business partner named Thomas Day 439 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: then went bad. And this is just one of those things. 440 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: It's not we're not going to be able to put 441 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,719 Speaker 1: everything in. But Thomas Day, um was one of her 442 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: business partners, was a white man, and a bunch of 443 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: rumors swirling around this Thomas Day guy, but um them 444 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: getting to business ventures together that didn't go so hot, 445 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: him potentially doing things that messed up their business ventures 446 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: and messed up her money. Um, potentially having a daughter 447 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: with her. These are all rumors that swirled around Thomas Day. Wow. Yeah, 448 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: so it's a lot a lot of stuff like that 449 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: in in her story. But there were creditors who were 450 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,239 Speaker 1: looking for Mary c. Cole for payment, and yeah, there 451 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: are articles about her her going through bankruptcy. But there's 452 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: also this whole super interesting element of fundraising that happened 453 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: around Mary see coal because when work got out of 454 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: her financial troubles, a fund was set up for her UM, 455 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: though she apparently didn't get much money out of it. 456 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: A bunch of fundraisers for her continue to pop up. 457 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: But this included later in her life. UM. There was 458 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: a benefit held in her honor that supposedly had tens 459 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: of thousands of people show up and pay like a 460 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: certain amount to get in. UM. So there are a 461 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: bunch of these efforts that happened around raising money for 462 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: Mary se Cole and kind of UM, people who are 463 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: attesting to her reputation and other people who didn't want 464 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,479 Speaker 1: to donate money to her necessarily. UM. But that was 465 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: a large part of her her later life, and she 466 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: was able to make money from some of those fundraising efforts. Yeah. 467 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: I was reading about those and and UM, as you say, 468 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the information around this is sort of 469 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: I don't know how true that is. But one of 470 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: the things I was reading said there was like a 471 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: four day fundraiser for her, Yeah, and like thousands attended 472 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: and thousands of dollars was raised. Wow. Yeah, interesting, uh huh. 473 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: There's a lot of UM praise that happens in her 474 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: around other people who were speaking of her as saying 475 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: she was, you know, the motherly sea coal figure. Um. 476 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: She took care of me. I loved for her to 477 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: be around, and that's been called into question as well. 478 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,959 Speaker 1: You know, there was a lot of that around surrounding her. 479 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: And also on these fundraisers were pretty like they happened 480 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: from time to time, happened occasionally, but this was around 481 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: this time too, after she went back. When her autobiography 482 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: was published, which was it was published in eighteen fifty seven, um, 483 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: and it was dedicated to Major General Lord Rokeby, who 484 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: was the commander of the First Vision and Crimea. It 485 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: also contained an intro by Times correspondent William Howard Russell. 486 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: He has one of those praising quotes, um. And we'll 487 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: get to that later, um. But he's also supposedly wrote 488 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: praising quotes about her as well. And in the book 489 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: she details her travels and her experiences in the Crimean War. 490 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: She talks a little bit about the first half of 491 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: our life, um. But then she ends more time on 492 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: her years in Panama, even more time on her life 493 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: and Crimea, and in the end she talks about going 494 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: back to England. So she did get some recognition and 495 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: money from the autobiography and it got some good reviews. Yeah, 496 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: so that's the quick and dirty version of all of 497 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: the travels that Mary s Cole went through and the 498 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: things that she said she did when it came to 499 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: healing people. Um. She spent her later years in Jamaican 500 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: and England UM and apparently aligned herself with a lot 501 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: of people in the royal circle and upper circles. And 502 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: you know, she even was able to get property through 503 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: her fundraising efforts later in life. And she died in 504 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: May of UM and she was buried in St Mary's 505 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,959 Speaker 1: Roman Catholic Cemetery in Cancel Green in London. So that's 506 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: the short of her actual biography. But there then there's 507 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: all the controversy around what happened the bringing back of 508 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: her legacy arts talking about her legacy again, how she's 509 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: kind of re emerged in these times, and her inclusion 510 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: and curriculums. There are sources and bus that have been 511 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: made of her showing that she got several medals of 512 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: including the French Legion of Honor, but she herself never 513 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: claimed that she want any, but there are a lot 514 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: of sources who that say she got this medal and 515 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: she got the Cromia Medal, and but that none of 516 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: those have ever been attributed to her, and most likely 517 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: she did not get those because you know, even the 518 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: Crowmia metal required her to have served. So that's part 519 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: of one of those things that there's been debate over 520 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: and people are trying to correct the misinformation that's going 521 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: around about her. UM. Since her autobiography was published, there 522 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: have been more editions of it that were published as 523 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: well with different introductions. So as you said Annie earlier, 524 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: there are a lot more people who have raised her 525 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: legacy to the forefront, and that has also brought up 526 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: people who are questioning the use of bringing her legacy 527 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: to the forefront again and what she actually did. And 528 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: part of that is because of Florence Nightingale, who wound 529 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: her way into Mary Seacole's story in some parts. So 530 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: there are stories about how Nightingale didn't approve of the 531 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: alcohol that she sold to soldiers or officers, um that 532 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: she wasn't supposed to do that and it was improper, 533 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: and her being turned down by nighting Gale because she 534 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: was black. There have been other instances UM, specifically one 535 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: where the BBC and a show or in a program 536 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: called Horrible History is portrayed se Coal in a certain 537 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: way and portrayed Nightingale in a way where it made 538 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: her look racist. She pushed se Coal out of the 539 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: way because and she was dressed as a nurse. There's 540 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of controversy over the portrayals of Nightingale in 541 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: relation to see Coal that put Nightingale in an unfavorable 542 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: light essentially, so there all the critics of Sea Cool 543 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: and the supporters of Nightingale have said that Secol's role 544 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: in the Crimean War has been really overhyped. So they 545 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: have claimed that like her treatments weren't as effective as 546 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: they've been portrayed. She didn't really actually save a bunch 547 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: of lives, but that her care was comforting to people 548 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: who were sick and or who were hurt. But her 549 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: actual use and benefit or if you want to put 550 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: in those terms of production, but you know, her actual 551 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: what she did for people was hyped up to discredit 552 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: Florence Nightingale, who doesn't look the best and see Cul's biographies, 553 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: and it's been said that some of that misinformation has 554 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: been circulated so that she can replace Nightingale. As quote 555 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: the founder of modern profession of nursing, so she wasn't there. 556 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: They also say that se Coel wasn't a nurse. Um 557 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: though places like the BBC, as I was talking about 558 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,959 Speaker 1: earlier in that program Horrible History, has a portrayed her 559 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: as such. Um. So some of those people even went 560 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: to the BBC and said, hey, look, this portrayal of 561 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: Sequel isn't correct, like you need to fix it. It 562 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: makes Nightingale look bad. Um And the BBC fought that 563 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: complaint for a while but said that ultimately said that 564 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: the portrayal of Nightingale was inaccurate. But there have been 565 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: people who have been very vocal about what they say 566 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: is the myth making around se Coel. So specifically, there 567 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: was a professor and a former MP in Canada. Her 568 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: name was Lin McDonald um. So she's been super vocal 569 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: about it um and she was involved and I think 570 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: co founded the Nightingale Society. She has a bunch of 571 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: videos on the issue, and she's one of the people 572 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: who really puts forward the idea that yes, se Coal 573 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: was really kind and generous, but she didn't save a 574 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: bunch of lives. You know. She did things like Tanta 575 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: Sports injuries. She said that she wasn't actually a battlefield 576 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 1: nurse as some people make her seem, um and doesn't 577 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: deserve to be treated as a pioneer in nursing. Um. 578 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: So they kind of what they do is portray her 579 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: as an opportunistic businesswoman, basically as a settler character instead 580 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: of the nurse character who has when we're looking at 581 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: if we're going to look at her legacy in terms 582 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: of that kind of characterization, um, but who happened to 583 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: be good at comforting military personnel who needed it, So 584 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: she was They say, yes, she could have been this 585 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: mother seacoel figure who did help treat people, but kind 586 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: of downplay the importance and the actual impact of the 587 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: work that she did. Um and say, well, you can't 588 00:34:54,480 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: discredit Florence Nightingale's legacy and history two may see cool 589 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: look better in any way. That's kind of the angle 590 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 1: that that they come from. So, yeah, that's the whole, 591 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: the whole part of the way that people look back 592 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: at um Sea calls legacy. Yeah, I find that I 593 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: find that fascinating. You've probably run into this more than 594 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: I have eves, since you're more into like history world 595 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: than I am. But Um, just how many times in 596 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: history we've hitted female historical figures against each other instead 597 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: of kind of just looking at the story and this story, 598 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: what did this person do? What did this person do? 599 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: Instead it's like, well, who is the mother of modern 600 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: nursing or whatever it is, which you should definitely examine 601 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: those relationships. But I just find it, um, sort of 602 00:35:53,440 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: telling that that happens a lot with um women in history, right, Yeah, 603 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: and hasn't stopped today. You know, that's still that thing 604 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: that happens in for instance, like the rap industry, are 605 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: different artistry industries where women are pitted against each other, um, 606 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: and in this case, um, the whole. Yeah, it's kind 607 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: of like a Florence Nightingale versus Mary C cold beef 608 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: that we're we're putting on them from the future. Not 609 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: that not necessarily happened while they were both alive, but yeah, 610 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: it's the It's definitely something that there's a thread of 611 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 1: when you're looking looking back at history and how women 612 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: were pitted against each other. Yeah, And I do think 613 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: like as we as we always say about first and like, um, 614 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 1: how how many first were raised and all the stuff 615 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: that happened to lead up to it first, and the 616 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: erasure of um women of color and black women specifically 617 00:36:58,160 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: when it comes to white women, Like, I think that's 618 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: totally a conversation worth having always. It's just funny to 619 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: me that it becomes like, you can't take this away 620 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: from Florence starting go right, it doesn't have a bigger conversation, 621 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: and that it not only does it talk about the 622 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: erasure of what when another did, which is said like, 623 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: why can't we just celebrate that both they did something 624 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: and it approved and it was something to be credited for. 625 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: But on top of that, like that conversation that we 626 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: continue to have his book, why is there such limited 627 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: space that we have to have an argument about who's 628 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: worth talking about instead of actually just bringing in the 629 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: holes like this is an amazing thing. Let's celebrate all 630 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: of this and there's enough space for everyone. Why not? Right? 631 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: I think that's a really great point you bring up, Samantha, 632 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: just because in thinking about the arguments that people have 633 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: against there are people these people are saying, you know, her, her, 634 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: we should they shouldn't necessarily include her incurriculum is what 635 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: I was trying to say earlier. When I'm gonna get 636 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: the work right, but um that they shouldn't necessarily include 637 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: her in curriculum. And there was this fight over whether 638 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: she should be taken out of curriculum because of the 639 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: way that the supposed misinformation that has been going around 640 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: about her. But I think it's a great point because 641 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: the points like, oh, well, she didn't necessarily save a 642 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: bunch of lives. She just made people feel better. It's like, 643 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,760 Speaker 1: and there's nothing wrong with that. Both and can be okay, 644 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: Both and are valuable. And it kind of devalues it 645 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: makes the work that people do when it comes to healing, 646 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: when it comes to treating people. Um, it devalues some 647 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: work over the next um, and in this specific case, 648 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: values the work of a white woman over um, a 649 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: woman with black ancestry. UM. And I think that, um, 650 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: it's just so many layers to the conversation around Mary c. Cole, 651 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: because there's the element of race itself with and I 652 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: didn't even get to the other side of people. So 653 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: I'll get I'll get to that right now before I 654 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: even dig deeper into that side, so I can explain 655 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: that and make it clear because there was is another side. 656 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: These people who I was mentioning earlier who are critics 657 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: of the way that her legacy is being proposed. A 658 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: lot of those people are protectors of Florence Nightingale's legacy, 659 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 1: which should be said for sure, um. But there are 660 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: the people on the other hand who have said that 661 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: her history has been erased and overshadowed by Nightingales. Um. 662 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: But then there are people who aren't even talking about Nightingale. 663 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: They're just like, well, Secol's legacy deserves to be talked 664 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: about right now, um. And there are people who do 665 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: view her as a black woman and say that her 666 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: accomplishments should be viewed in that light, and they reject 667 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: the view that Nightingale supporters put forth, saying that that 668 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: downplays and discredits people who used herbal remedies to help 669 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: people and other traditional practices in healing, and that she 670 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: did really have success in medicine and in minor surgery um. 671 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: And that all the moves to remove her from curriculum 672 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: and to strip away her blackness and claims that her 673 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: accomplishments are exaggerated are just kind of strategies to remove 674 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: her contributions from Britain and that historical record and discredit 675 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: all the things that she actually did do. So you know, 676 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: they're calling into question her critics are calling into question 677 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,439 Speaker 1: that anything she did ever was important, even if they say, oh, yeah, 678 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: this happened, she definitely helped people. But does it really matter? 679 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: Do we really need to talk about it? Um? And 680 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: so there are the issues of well there's her race, UM, 681 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: questions over percentages over her race, of that she was 682 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: three quarters wide and only one quote unquote quadroon and 683 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: that she really was very fair skinned um and did 684 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: have privilege. And then there's the issue of her not 685 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: calling herself black at all. And then there's the issue well, 686 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: you know, we still need to recognize the things that 687 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: she actually did when it came to treating people. Um. 688 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: And even if it wasn't to the extent of saving 689 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: thousands of lives, did she actually leave an impact on 690 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: the people that were involved or that she treated. Um. 691 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's just so many layers to it, um, 692 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: which makes her history just so complicated and as very 693 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: tangible and real example of that, there is a statue 694 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: of her at St. Thomas's Hospital in London, which is 695 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: affiliated with Nightingale, which Nightingale's folks took as kind of 696 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: a fight to them, they're like, why see Coel here? 697 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: She didn't do anything. And on it there's a quote 698 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: that's attributed to the Times correspondent who I spoke of earlier, 699 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: William Howard Russell, and the quote was, I trust that 700 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: England will not forget one who nursed her sick, who 701 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: sought out her wounded to aid and sucker them, and 702 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 1: who performed the last offices for some of her illustrious dead. 703 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,759 Speaker 1: So that's one of those praising quotes that comes from 704 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,919 Speaker 1: someone else and speaking about Sea coal Um and that's 705 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 1: on the statue. And there was a whole debate over 706 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: why that statue should be there, whether it should be there, 707 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,720 Speaker 1: and that Sea Couel shouldn't be honored in that way 708 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,239 Speaker 1: at the hospital because of Nightingale's legacy that's wrapped up 709 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: in the hospital. That sounds like a narrowed version of 710 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: all lives matter. I mean, I know that's good kind 711 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: of a generalization, but just like why are you? It's 712 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: not one against another. It's that we're focusing on something 713 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: that was significant at a time, whatever it may be, 714 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,399 Speaker 1: and that we gave credit to that not a lot 715 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: of people know about, and that should be celebrated, and 716 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 1: it's worth celebrating. It's not like a slight to anyone 717 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: else is not to slap you in the face, to 718 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: be like ha ha, see, we're not about you. It's 719 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: such a like weird like conversation, especially because maybe Sequel, 720 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: maybe she wasn't as medically um knowledgeable as Nightingale. I 721 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 1: don't know, but what I hear as a social order, 722 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,799 Speaker 1: I'm like, what we have discovered as of late, and 723 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm not know if they just stretching, is that if 724 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: mental health is not taken care of, that physical health 725 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: may not be taken care of either, as much medical 726 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,280 Speaker 1: procedures that can happen. And it sounds like Mary Seckel 727 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: did kind of all of that, Like not only did 728 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: she try to bring the medical aspect, but she also 729 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: gave the mental health, loving nurturing aspect as well. That 730 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: was a little bit more unheard of at that time 731 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: of crisis, you know. And I'm like, why can't we 732 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: credit her for that? Right? And oh I love that 733 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: point because it's something that people wouldn't necessarily have had 734 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: the language for at the time, Like she wouldn't have 735 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: been saying mental health and clothes, but she would have 736 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: been performing that. Here's a she says, I do not 737 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,720 Speaker 1: think that we hot blooded creoles sorrow less for showing 738 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: it so impetuously. But I do think that the sharp 739 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: edge of our grief wears down sooner than there's who 740 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: preserve an outward demeanor of calmness and nurse their woes 741 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: secretly in their hearts. And I'm like, oh my gosh, 742 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: you're talking about black anger. You're talking about perceptions of 743 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,280 Speaker 1: black anger, and notwithstanding all of the are black women's 744 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: anger specifically UM and pain and black women's pain and 745 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: the way that we show it in the way that 746 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 1: it's perceived and the way that it's treated. And I'm like, well, 747 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 1: I need to read that line like so many more times, 748 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 1: because there's a lot that can be called into question 749 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 1: in the way that she spoke about other people and 750 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: looked at other people and viewed them as not part 751 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,879 Speaker 1: of the group that she was part of. UM. But 752 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: I totally agree with what you're saying, Samantha, where it's like, 753 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: in an explicit and not so explicit way, at the 754 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: same time that people who are criticizing the work that 755 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 1: she did do they're recognizing the fact that they that 756 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: she did address mental health, and she did make people 757 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: feel better, and she did help people, But saying that 758 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,800 Speaker 1: that's not worthy of our praise and our recognition. So 759 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 1: I think that in a way devalues. I mean, there's 760 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 1: a lot that can be said about, you know, the 761 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: criticism itself, but the fact that they acknowledge that she 762 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,359 Speaker 1: did work and devaluate at the same time, I think 763 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: take some credibility away from anything that may actually be 764 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: credible that they're calling into question. Agreed, Yeah, agreed as well. 765 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: We concur We do have a little bit more for 766 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: you listeners, but first we have one more group break 767 00:45:44,239 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: for Worksimer sponsor and we're back. Thank I just think, um, 768 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,440 Speaker 1: we were talking about Lucy Parsons, but Mary Sequel just 769 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: kind of brings up a lot of issues that are 770 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: happening today and in different aspect and different time frame, 771 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: and it's just weary some I guess, but at the 772 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 1: same time like validating, like, yeah, this has been a thing, 773 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: and this has been a conversation and it's just in 774 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: a different narrative. And this is why it's so important 775 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: that we do look at the history of what has 776 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: happened and what is happening then what is happening now 777 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: in that same level of her, whether practices in medicine, 778 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: whether it's being acknowledged. And I read the information that 779 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,320 Speaker 1: she was talking about the fact that Americans were more 780 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: racists towards her or prejudice towards her, and she noted 781 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 1: that it was Americans, which is really sad um in 782 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: every way because it seems like it really hasn't changed. 783 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just too caught up in everything that's bad 784 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: here us. Yeah, there was a part two, I think where, 785 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,920 Speaker 1: if I'm remembering correctly, I think were she said something 786 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: along the lines of could it be that here in 787 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: London when she was in London, they have the same 788 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 1: prejudices that they have in America. Um, yeah, so yes. 789 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 1: Uh it's funny because I mean there's obviously the conversation 790 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:20,760 Speaker 1: about racism that's explicit and racism that's veiled, and um, 791 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: all of those conversations and uh um yeah, I think 792 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,840 Speaker 1: that goes deep because you know, she presented she was 793 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: very fair skin, so she presented in one way and 794 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: also says that she had experiences of being treated as 795 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: a black woman. So yeah, there's a lot of Yeah, 796 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: it's very um complex and nuanced conversation happening around her 797 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 1: and the and the book will say, from what I've read, 798 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,200 Speaker 1: is enjoyable and it didn't make me think a lot. 799 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,520 Speaker 1: And also if anyone, if I you're like on the 800 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 1: fence about reading it, one of the chapter like subtitles 801 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 1: is I am taken for a spy and they're at 802 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: lose my temper, So come on, come on. It's a 803 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: great title. Yeah, yea. And I feel like as a 804 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,400 Speaker 1: society we definitely like to We don't like complexity and 805 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: nuance a lot of times. We just like the bite 806 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,879 Speaker 1: size headline thing. So I'm glad we're having this conversation now. 807 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: I think it's really important. Agreed, Well, thank you so much, 808 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 1: as always eaves such a pleasure, Always learned so much, 809 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:39,400 Speaker 1: Always loved seeing you and hearing you you too. Where 810 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: can the good listeners find you? You can find me 811 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: on social media. Um. You can also hear me on 812 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: This Day in History Class, a podcast about history. Um. 813 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,399 Speaker 1: But yeah, you can find me on social media. I'm 814 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: at Eve's Jeff Cope. You can also look up This 815 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: Day in History Classes socials. They're all T D I 816 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: h C podcast And yeah, that's about it. Yeah, and 817 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,320 Speaker 1: definitely go check all those things out if you haven't already, 818 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 1: And if you'd like to contact us you can. Our 819 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 1: email is Stuff Media, mom Stuff that I Heart media 820 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom 821 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. 822 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,840 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, Thanks 823 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 1: again to you, Eves, and thanks to everyone for listening 824 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You The production of I Heart 825 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,480 Speaker 1: Radio from more podcasts from iHeartRadio is the radio app 826 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,880 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows