1 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:09,159 Speaker 1: Does ten seconds in a dream equal ten seconds in 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: real life? How do you get information to somebody when 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: they're in a dream and how can they answer you 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: back while they're inside their dream. Why might you see 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: someone in real life flicking the light switch on and 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: off every time they enter a room? Can you prompt 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: your brain the way you prompt a large language model 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: like chatchpt And if so, if you could pose one 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: question to your unconscious brain, what would it be. Welcome 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: to Inner Cosmos with me, David Eagleman. I'm a neuroscientist 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: and an author at Stanford and in these episodes we 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: sail deeply into our three pound universe to understand why 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: and how our lives look the way they do. Today's 14 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: episode takes us on a journey into the world of 15 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: lucid dreaming. What is that? How can you experience it? 16 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: And what does it teach us about the nature of 17 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: our own consciousness. Joining us in a little bit will 18 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: be my friend and colleague Jonathan Barrant, who is very 19 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: knowledgeable about the art and science of lucid dreaming. So 20 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: get comfortable and let's dive in. So maybe you saw 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: this great movie Inception In case you didn't or as 22 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: a reminder, this is a Christopher Nolan science fiction heist thriller. 23 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: The star is Leonardo DiCaprio, and he's a skilled thief 24 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: who specializes in extraction, which is this fictional process of 25 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: entering a person's dream and stealing valuable secrets from deep 26 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: within their subconscious Now, the core of the story revolved 27 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: around this idea of inception, which is the idea of 28 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: planting an idea into somebody's subconscious mind without them knowing. So, 29 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: without giving away any details, DiCaprio sets out to incept 30 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: an idea into a business magnate's dream and this is 31 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: a really complex operation that requires his team to navigate 32 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: through dreams within dreams within dreams. And I won't give 33 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: away any spoilers here, but one of the very cinematically 34 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: cool ideas of the movie is that each layer of 35 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: dreams has successive time dilation. So when you go down 36 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: into the first level, ten seconds in the real world 37 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: might correspond to a minute of dream time, and as 38 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: you go deeper, the ten seconds might correspond to a 39 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: year or a decade of dream time. So the idea 40 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: in the movie is that dream time does not correspond 41 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: to real time. Now. It's a terrific movie, and if 42 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: you haven't seen it, you should. But there's this question 43 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: which lots of people have wondered about, which is, how 44 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: would you know if that's true? How would you know 45 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: whether dream time matches real time or not? Now you 46 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: might feel like they don't correspond. And this is in 47 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: part because sometimes you wake up from a dream and 48 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: you want to tell someone about it, but the telling 49 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: of the dream often seems to take a long time, 50 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: even if the dream only took you a second. And 51 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: in the last episode, I touched on why this can 52 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: be confusing because sometimes you have to explain a bunch 53 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: of background details, and sometimes you have false memories in 54 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: the dream that need to be included, and so it 55 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: sometimes takes time to get the whole thing put into words. 56 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: So it can be difficult to answer whether dream time 57 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: and real time correspond. But today we're going to go 58 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: one step deeper. We're going to ask is there a 59 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: way that you could actually test this? Now, think about 60 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: what a difficult question this is, because it would require 61 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: somebody to be inside of their dream, and somehow they 62 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: would need to communicate with you what they are experiencing. 63 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: Privately in their head. Now that sounds totally impossible under 64 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: normal circumstances, But the question is, could you ever be 65 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: inside a dream and figure out how to communicate outside 66 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: of the dream, Or even better, could we think of 67 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: a way to get bi directional communications so that someone 68 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: outside can communicate with you in your dream and then 69 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: you communicate back out to them. Well, it turns out 70 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: there is a way to do that, and that's what 71 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk 72 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: about lucid dreaming, and this is when a sleeper realizes 73 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,119 Speaker 1: that he or she is dreaming and then is able 74 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: to take some control over the plot of their dream. 75 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: They might choose to fly, or they can try to 76 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: control other people's actions, or generally just manipulate the physical 77 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: world of the dream. So here's my analogy. You know 78 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,679 Speaker 1: those kids rides at the amusement park where you're sitting 79 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: in a car and you can steer the wheel, but 80 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: the wheel doesn't actually do anything. You're just on a 81 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: track and the car just follows wherever the track goes. 82 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: So imagine if you could get the steering wheel to 83 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: work and actually steer off that track. That's what a 84 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: lucid dream is instead of you always being the follower 85 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: in your dream, you are now the driver. Now, to 86 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: many people, lucid dreaming might sound like a concept straight 87 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: out of science fiction, but it's a well documented state 88 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: of sleep. A dreamer can become aware that they are dreaming, 89 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: and this awareness can from a faint recognition of the 90 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: dream state to a more profound acuity where the dreamer 91 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:12,559 Speaker 1: takes control over their own actions and manipulates their environment. Now, 92 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: to understand this, we need to remember what we talked 93 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: about in the last two episodes, which is that our 94 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: sleep during the night moves through various phases. One of 95 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 1: these is called the rapid eye movement stage of sleep, 96 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: or REM sleep, and this is where our vivid dreams occur, 97 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: and it's during REM sleep that lucid dreaming is most 98 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: likely to take place. Now, I mentioned last week that 99 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: during REM sleep, our body's major muscles are paralyzed, which 100 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: prevents us from acting out our dreams, and this is 101 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: also true during a lucid dream. But certain other parts 102 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: of the brain, especially those involved in self awareness and 103 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: executive function. These become more active when you're having a 104 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: lucid dream, so we usually think of brains as having 105 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: two possible states. You're either awake or you're asleep, but 106 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: being in a lucid dream is somewhere in between, and 107 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: the brainwave activity measured by EEG is different from normal 108 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: rem sleep. So this makes lucid dreaming a unique state 109 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: of consciousness where the dreaming mind wakes up but the 110 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: body remains in the sleep state. So the first question 111 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: is how do you do this? How do you become 112 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: lucid in a dream? Sometimes, if you're very lucky, a 113 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: lucid dream will happen. Accidentally. I had won many years 114 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: ago when I was in a dream where I was 115 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: at my high school locker bay with all my classmates, 116 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: and it slowly dawned on me that I was in 117 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: a dream and that none of this was real, and 118 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: I was able to take control of my dream. But 119 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: it only lasted a few seconds before I woke up up. 120 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: But lucid dream efficionados can train themselves in a variety 121 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: of ways that we'll talk about to have lucidity more 122 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: often and for longer. The main technique involves setting an 123 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: intention just before going to sleep to look for signs 124 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,679 Speaker 1: that you're dreaming. Little clues that something doesn't quite make sense, 125 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: and then the idea is if you see those things 126 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: that will alert you that you are inside a dream, 127 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: and then you can try to take control. The general 128 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: story is that if we get good enough at questioning reality, 129 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: we can then pass more easily into lucid dreaming. So 130 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: what is lucid dreaming all about? And how can you 131 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: get good at it? To explore this in depth, I 132 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: called up my friend Jonathan Barrent JB. As he goes by. 133 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: He worked for many years at Google, including at X 134 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: the Moonshot Factory, and he is a connoisseur of lucid 135 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: dreaming and he lectures at Stanford about it. So I 136 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: wanted to get his take on this rare and amazing 137 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: version of consciousness. So, Jonathan, what is a lucid dream? 138 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 2: A lucid dream is any dream we're actually aware that 139 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 2: you are dreaming. 140 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: What got you interested in lucid dreaming? 141 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: There was a book called The Shaping Room, and it 142 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 2: was a fictional book, but the character in it had 143 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: the ability to imagine these landscapes. He would actually put 144 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: his hand in this clay and I just got curious, 145 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 2: and I think, you know, one day in a bookstore, 146 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: I came across Stephen Laberge's exploring the world of lucid dreaming, 147 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: and I read that and I realized, like, wow, there's 148 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: actually a way to get into a state of consciousness 149 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 2: where you can envision different dreamscapes and you can have 150 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 2: some measure of control. And I was hooked ever since. 151 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: And for anyone who doesn't know, Stephen Laberge is a 152 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: colleague of ours who is a century the pioneer in 153 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: lucid dreaming. And so the question is, JB, what are 154 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: the best ways that somebody can train up to allow 155 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: themselves to have a lucid dream. Sure, there's a few 156 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: key steps. The first one is working on dream recall. 157 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: You want to get to a place where you can 158 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: remember two, three, maybe even four dreams a night. So 159 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, having a dream journal, having the intention to 160 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: remember your dreams is you know, the first key. As 161 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: you build your dream journal, you're going to find what 162 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: are sometimes called dream signs. You'll find that there are 163 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: some certain patterns, like for me, if a dream sign 164 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: is being back in Indiana, where I was from. And 165 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: so as you start to learn your dream signs, you 166 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: can then start to anchor on that being something that 167 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: triggers lucidity. If I can just clarify for the listeners, 168 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: a dream sign meaning a sign that you are dreaming exactly. 169 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: Yes, you're looking for these sign posts because we don't 170 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: naturally question reality right now, we're not even questioning that 171 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: this might be a dream. But we because we are 172 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: often fooled in most of the dreams we have, we 173 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: don't have that recognition. So you need cues, and we 174 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: call those dream signs. And the more you journal about 175 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: your dreams, the more you'll find some patterns. So that's 176 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: the first step, is you have your dream journaling and 177 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 2: you have your dream signs. 178 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: So that you can get good at recognizing I am 179 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: I must be in a dream right now? 180 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: Correct. Now. There are some ways that have been really 181 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: scientifically studied and rather robustly to ensure you have sort 182 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: of a maximum chance. And so one of those is 183 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: the mnemonic induction of lucid dreams. And so that means, 184 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 2: as you are going to bed, you can say, next 185 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: time I'm dreaming, I want to remember that I'm dreaming. 186 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: You sort of place this little hook and they call 187 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: that prospective memory where you're trying to remember something in 188 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 2: the future. Now, you can make it even easier on 189 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: yourself if you wake yourself up after about three or 190 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: four hours of sleep, and that method is called the 191 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: wake back to bed. Why, well, you get through most 192 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: of the denser part of your sleep at the first 193 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 2: part of your night, the slow wave sleep, the restorative sleep, 194 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: and then the latter half is more rem sleep. So 195 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 2: if you wake yourself up after three or four hours 196 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: and then you do that mnemonic induction of lucid dreaming, say, 197 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: next time I'm dreaming, I want to remember I'm dreaming. Well, 198 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: you chances are you'll go directly into REM. And when 199 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 2: you go directly into REM after having slept for four 200 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 2: hours and maybe being up for a little bit, you're 201 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 2: going to be more likely to actually see that trigger 202 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: and remember it that you're actually in a lucid dream. 203 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: That's one of the most effective ways to become a 204 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: lucid dreamer. 205 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: Let me just understand it. It's what do you mean 206 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: I want to remember that I'm dreaming? You mean I 207 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: want to recognize that I'm dreaming. Yes, okay, yes, So 208 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: you're in a dream and you say, wait a minute, 209 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm back in Indiana. This doesn't seem real, I must 210 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: be in a dream. And so then what do you do. 211 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 2: When you recognize or you think you recognize, it's good 212 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: to do what's called a reality check. You want to 213 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: see are you truly in a dream state? And so 214 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 2: there's been lots of different reality checks along the way. 215 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 2: Some people look at their hand. That was popularized by 216 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: Carlos Cassandra and his books on the Pathways of Dreaming. 217 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: Why look at your hand? What are you looking for? 218 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: Well, when you look at your hand in a dream, 219 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 2: it just doesn't look like a five fingered hand. Often 220 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: there'll be like a sixth finger. It will it will 221 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 2: have some sort of blurring, you know, to it for 222 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: some reason. Although the mind can recreate many, many things 223 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 2: with exquisite detail and dreams, it has trouble recreating a 224 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 2: perfect hand. 225 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: This sounds like Dolly, yeah. So the idea is you 226 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: get in the habit of looking at your hand and 227 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: if it looks odd, then you say, why does my 228 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: hand look so odd? And then you think, wait, wait, 229 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: I must be dreaming. 230 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 2: That's the idea, right, that's right, that's the idea. Other 231 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,599 Speaker 2: people might try to fly. Obviously, you jump up and 232 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: gravity holds you down, then you know you're most likely 233 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: in this reality, which lucid dreamers like to call consensus reality. 234 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: And you know, there's another one that's kind of interesting 235 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: that if you pinch your nose and try to breathe, 236 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 2: which I wasn't able to do, but in a dream, 237 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: there's no constriction and you actually will breathe right through that. 238 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: So that's kind of an unusual reality check. There's many 239 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: of them, but the main thing is to have one 240 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: or two reality checks that you can do both during 241 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: the day at a time like this, and then when 242 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: you are you know, have some sort of recognition that 243 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 2: you're in a dream, you can perform that reality check 244 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: and then it'll either pass or fail. 245 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: So the idea is to get in the habit of 246 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: doing reality checks, like seeing if you can breathe with 247 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: your nose pinched, or whether you can see your hand. 248 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: Another one that I'm fond of is you put your 249 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, your thumbnail up on your tooth and you 250 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: try to flick your tooth off, and in consensus re reality, 251 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: your tooth doesn't come off. But often what will happen 252 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: in a dream is your tooth goes flying off into 253 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: the air and you think, what the heck just happened? 254 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: You think, oh, yes, I must be in a dream. 255 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: That's right. All those are better than what has been 256 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: popularized in the movie Inception, which is the spinning top. 257 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: Of course that makes for a good graphic and a 258 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: good movie, but that's not really a great reality check. 259 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: Any of these other ones that we've talked about are 260 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: much better. 261 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: Wait, I had forgotten about the spinning top. Why what 262 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: were they doing? And why is that not a good check? 263 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: So you know, Leonardo's character spins it, and if it 264 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: falls down, then he knows he's in a that he's 265 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: in consensus reality. But if it keeps on spinning, then 266 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: he's in a dream. And of course the movie ends 267 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: with this you know, undefined state of like who knows 268 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: if this whole movie was a dream, But you know, 269 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 2: in an actual dream, you know, when you're spinning, there's 270 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: no evidence that the top will keep on spinning in 271 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: a lucid dream versus you know, fall down. Much more 272 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: tried and true methods are the ones that we've talked about. 273 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: The only other one that gets, you know, a little 274 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: bit closer to something like that is a light switch. 275 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: For some reason, when you flip light switches in lucid dreams, 276 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: they tend not to work. But the by far the 277 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 2: most robust one that with the science behind it, is 278 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: one that we haven't mentioned, So that one is looking 279 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 2: at a piece of text, so something that's been written, 280 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: and that could be you know, could you know, be 281 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: your watch? You know, twelve thirty nine. You look away 282 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: and then you look back, and indeed it's the same. 283 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 2: And so Leberg's i think, was the first to study 284 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: that and found about eighty to eighty five percent of 285 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: the time that was a reliable measure that the brain 286 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: doesn't recreate. 287 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: You say, it's the same in consensus reality, but in 288 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: a dream when you look back at the clock, it 289 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: is different. 290 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: It's different, yes, And that's because there's no sensory constraints 291 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: in the dream, right. And so I think one of 292 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: the one of the interesting things that Lebert's used to say, 293 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 2: and he was, you know, my mentor for years, and 294 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 2: I'm very grateful for all the things that I learned 295 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: from him. He said that dreaming is really perceiving without 296 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 2: sensory constraints, and perceiving is dreaming with sensory constraints. It's 297 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: a little bit of a play on words, but it's 298 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 2: really getting across a fairly important piece of meaning that 299 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 2: the dreaming mechanism and the perceiving mechanisms are very very similar. 300 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: So let's unpack that for the listeners. So the idea 301 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: is that, you know, you just take vision, for example, 302 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: only five percent of the input to the visual cortex 303 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: is actually coming from the retinas, from the eyeballs, and 304 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: all the rest is internally generated. And so this is 305 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: why you can have dreams, for example, where your eyes 306 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: are closed but you're having full, rich, visual experience, because 307 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: it's just this machinery running on its own without the 308 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: little bit of modulation that comes in from your eyes. 309 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: And so this is the sense in which when we're 310 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: awake it's like awake dreaming. It's the same processes that 311 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: we have when we're seeing when we're dreaming, it's just 312 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: that when your eyes are open, things are anchored a 313 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: bit more. I'm just unpacking this. So this is what 314 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: you mean when you say, actually, how do you phrase it? 315 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 2: Perception is Perception is dreaming with sensory constraints, and then 316 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 2: you can you flip. 317 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: It so you're anchored to what's in front of you. 318 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,719 Speaker 1: But otherwise it's the same process as dreaming. Okay, now, 319 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: what was the other half of the sentence? 320 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: Dreaming is perceiving without sensory constraints, got it, okay? 321 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: Right, in the sense that your brain is doing its thing, 322 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: but it's not tied to what's actually on a wristwatch. 323 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: It gets to invent what's on the watch at every moment. 324 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: Right now. One of the interesting studies that Stephen Labers 325 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: did and then Philips Embardo also one of your colleagues 326 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 2: at Stanford is they wanted to design experiment that could 327 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 2: you know, actually prove this, and I think it's fascinating. 328 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 2: It was published in twenty eighteen in Nature Communications. And 329 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 2: as you're very well familiar, the eyes when they lock 330 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 2: onto something like a finger and they trace it, they 331 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 2: have a smooth pursuit. 332 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: So when you're hold on when you're moving your finger 333 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: back and forth in front of you, just for listeners, 334 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: your eyes are smoothly moving back and forth with your finger, 335 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 1: as opposed to if you're not moving your finger and 336 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: you just try to move your eyes to the left 337 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: and right. Your eyes make jumps. They go jump jump, jump, jump, 338 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: and then they go jump jump jump, the other way. 339 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: Those are called secods scots. 340 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 2: Yes, So with that in mind and with you know 341 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: that understanding of our neurobiology, they designed a clever experiment 342 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 2: where they had participants look at their finger in consensus 343 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 2: reality and then just trace a circle. And then they 344 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: had leads eog leads to measure you know, their eye 345 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: movements electro oculargram, so measuring the potentials of the eyes. 346 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 2: The eyes are pulled rise, so when you move the 347 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: eyes just very you know, basic biopotential sensors can see it. 348 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: So these are little electrodes you stick on to the 349 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: outside of the eye and you can measure where the 350 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: eye is located, whether it's looking up or down or 351 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: left to right, even when the eyelids are closed. 352 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: Correct. Yes, And so they measured that while people were 353 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: tracing their finger and doing a circle, and it had 354 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: as you would expect, that smooth pursuit seeing you know, 355 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 2: the eye tracings in that. Then they had people you know, 356 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 2: close their eyes while still awake and just imagine that, 357 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: and so you know they can move their eyes, but 358 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 2: as you just said, they have more psychotic movements when 359 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 2: there's no anchor, when there's no finger to anchor on. 360 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: So if I'm just imagining my finger moving with my 361 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: eyes closed, I see jump jump, jump jump instead of 362 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: smooth pursuit. 363 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 2: Okay, right, So then they had these people go into 364 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 2: a lucid dream and remember the dream task of actually 365 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: putting their finger up their dream finger and watching it 366 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: go around and much too. I think the surprise of many, 367 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: it mirrored much more closely. I could show you the 368 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 2: plots in the paper much more closely to the waken 369 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: reality and compared to the imagination where it was very jagged. 370 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 1: So the idea is, when you're an elucid dream and 371 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: you're imagining your finger moving back and forth, your eyes 372 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: are making something more like smooth pursuit because it's like 373 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: actually seeing it. 374 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's kind of amazing because then it goes 375 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 2: back to what we were just saying that dreaming is 376 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: perceiving without sensory constraints, and perceiving is dreaming, And so 377 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 2: the mechanisms are very similar. I'm not saying that they're identical, 378 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: but they are very similar, and I think that just 379 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: opens up to a lot of interesting possibilities for lucid 380 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 2: dream research. 381 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: Now we jumped straight into something which is doing an 382 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: experiment with lucid dreaming. But I just want to fill 383 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: out a little bit more so everyone gets this. So 384 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: let's say I look at some texts in a book 385 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: and the text doesn't really make sense, and I look 386 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: back and the text is different. I might think, Wow, 387 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: what's going on here? Oh wait, I must be dreaming, 388 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: and then I can transition into making it a lucid dream. 389 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: So what happens when I turn lucid? 390 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, So when people turn lucid, they often, if it's 391 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: the very first time, it might be a very short 392 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 2: experience because they get kind of excited, and as they 393 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 2: get excited, more areas of the brain light up and 394 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: they wake up. However, if they don't, or if it's 395 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 2: maybe their second or third time, they can then really 396 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: explore the world. They can look at the objects around them, 397 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 2: they can touch them, feel them, they can taste them. 398 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: All five senses are working in the dream world. They 399 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: could travel to a different location. It's interesting to note 400 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: that there's almost like skills that you can develop. It 401 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: doesn't all just happen in your first lucid dream, but 402 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: over time, you can do almost anything without the physical 403 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 2: laws or the social laws of convention applying. 404 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: And so one of the things that you can do 405 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: is follow the instructions of an experimenter who's told you 406 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: when you fall asleep, I want you to look at 407 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: your finger moving back and forth in your lucid dream. 408 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: So they're actually doing something that they were told to 409 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: do once they realize they are there. 410 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: That's correct. Yeah, remembering the dream task that in and 411 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: of itself is a skill. It takes a while because 412 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: you're so enamored with the lucid dream world and all 413 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 2: the possibilities, but it can get to a place where 414 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 2: you can remember, Hey, I had this intention, I'm supposed 415 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 2: to do this because of an experiment that I'm doing. 416 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: Or oh, I wanted to go to the Eiffel Tower 417 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: and see, you know, what does it look like from 418 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 2: the Eiffel Tower because I have a trip coming up 419 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: to Paris. I want to see if it compares all 420 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 2: kinds of very interesting things. Both can be formal experiments 421 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: or does self experiments great? 422 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: And now what allows the experiment to take place is 423 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: that there's a way that you, as the lucid dreamer, 424 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,719 Speaker 1: can communicate with the outside world. And this idea of 425 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: hooking up an electro ocular gram so you can see 426 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: where the eyes are pointing. This is one way that 427 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: you can talk with the outside world. So besides the 428 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: thing of following your finger, what are some other examples 429 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: where you can talk to the experimenter through your eye movements. 430 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 2: Sure, well, that was sort of the fundamental piece that Stephen, 431 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: you know, contributed to the science this left right, left 432 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 2: right signal. So it can and it's become the de 433 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: facto uh signal that somebody is actually in a lucid state. 434 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 2: So just unpack that a little bit. You know, sleep 435 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: scientists they have characteristics that they look for that they 436 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 2: can and say definitively somebody is asleep. You know. That's 437 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: when you have an EEG hooked up to your scalp 438 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 2: and the eye leads and often a chin lead to 439 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 2: measure the muscle movement. You can definitively say somebody is 440 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 2: asleep and that they're in rim. And then when you 441 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: see that sharp coordinated left right, left right, that is 442 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: just a clear sign of the eyes that somebody is 443 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: actually becoming lucid. 444 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: Specifically, the subject is told when you realize you are 445 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: in a lucid dream, and why you look left and 446 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: then right and left and then right. 447 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 2: That's correct, yes, And so that was established, you know, 448 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 2: in the early eighties with part of his PhD work 449 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 2: at Stanford and since then has been the gold standard. Now, 450 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: if you think about that, though, what could you also 451 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 2: do with that eye movement? You don't just have to 452 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: signal lucidity. You could signal other things. You could actually 453 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: pass information based on let's just say the number of 454 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 2: left right, left, right. And in fact, that was some 455 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: of the you know, kind of co or thinking that 456 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: went into a series of experiments that I participated in 457 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: along with kin Power and Karen Conkly that are just 458 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 2: fascinating that you know, we could we could talk about. 459 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 2: But essentially we took it one step further where we 460 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,719 Speaker 2: wondered if you could get information into the dream, that 461 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 2: the dreamer could receive that information, do something with it, 462 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: and then communicate it back out. 463 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: Great, what's an example. 464 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 2: Okay, this may not be the most fun example, but 465 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 2: we took math problems as just a very simple way 466 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 2: to actually approve could we get information into a dream 467 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: such as what is six minus three? For example? And 468 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 2: you know, could the dreamer hear that and then could 469 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 2: they respond with three sets of left, right, left, right, 470 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 2: and that became you know, one of the things that 471 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 2: we found to be fairly reproducible were simple math problems 472 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: that the dreamer did not know in advance, but then 473 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 2: have to do the calculation and then respond back with 474 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 2: the appropriate number of vibe movements. 475 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: So you haven't yet told us how you got the information. 476 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 2: In yes, So, as it turns out, when the brain 477 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: is sleeping, it doesn't completely shut off from external stimuli. 478 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 2: And I think we all have probably had this experience 479 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: where an alarm goes off and somehow it gets incorporated 480 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 2: into the dream. You know, it's a it's a siren, 481 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 2: or it's a police car. We needed to have some 482 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 2: auditory pathways available just to survive, right, we are sort 483 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 2: of at risk when we're asleep. So we took advantage 484 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: of that, the fact that there is selective pass through 485 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 2: of auditory information into the dream. And so it was 486 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: once the dreamer was in rem sleep, and once they 487 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 2: signaled that they were loocid to the left, right, left, right, 488 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: then the math problem was just spoken, just spoken in 489 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 2: a you know, a regular normal voice. 490 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: You mean, the experimenter says, it says, what is six 491 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: minus three, right, yep, And the lucid dreamer hears that, 492 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: and what is the experience of hearing it in a 493 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: lucid dream. 494 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: It varied, you know, because at that point, you know, 495 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 2: the dreamer is incorporating this external stimuli into the dream. 496 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: You know. 497 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 2: One person reported that they were in kind of like 498 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 2: a residential neighborhood and they were looking at the house 499 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: numbers and when the experimenter said, you know, the six 500 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 2: minus three, the house number just changed to that and 501 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: they solve, you know, six minus three. So each dreamer 502 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: reported a different sort of subjective experience of how it 503 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 2: got incorporated, everything from just hearing the words themselves to 504 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 2: seeing the dream somehow communicate the math problem. 505 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: And once they have heard the question in some way, 506 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: then they use their eye movement to, for example, look 507 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 1: to the left three times, bang, bang bang, even though 508 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: they're in their dream, they're talking to the outside world 509 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: through their eye movements. That's correct. Cool. And you guys 510 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: found that you could do this bi directional community. 511 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: Yes, and not just us. There was four labs. It 512 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 2: was a great collaboration across France, the Netherlands and USA. 513 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: And you know, now it's not one hundred percent of 514 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 2: the time. But you know, it was enough to sort 515 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: of say, this is way above chance that people are 516 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 2: actually hearing these and responding back with the right numbers, 517 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: and so I think it'll lead to a lot of 518 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: interesting future research. 519 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: What happened when it didn't work, was it that people 520 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: just simply didn't respond or they were answering the wrong question. 521 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, by far it was a no response. There wasn't 522 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 2: an actual response to the math equation. Now, we were 523 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: also pretty harsh on ourselves. We had three independent scorers 524 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: and there had to be a consensus that you know, 525 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: it was the actual number of eye movements to match 526 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 2: the math problem. So you know, with that, I think 527 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: again it was rigorous science and that's what you need 528 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 2: for something that's so unusual like this. But it was 529 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 2: above chance. And one of the things that is was 530 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 2: also a little bit challenging is you know, remember we 531 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: talked about the dream task, and so we did get 532 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 2: people waking up and saying, hey, I had the Lucid dream, 533 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: but I'm sorry I forgot to signal, and so you know, 534 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: that kind of shows that there is sort of a 535 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: progression of skill that you can get Lucid but then 536 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 2: to remember to signal that you get lucid is one 537 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 2: thing that you need to do, and then to be 538 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 2: able to hear the input is another thing that you 539 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: need to do and then be able to communicate. So 540 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: you know, there's there's multiple points of failure along the way. 541 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: And did you guys do other tasks besides the math problem? 542 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 2: The US group focused on the math problem, the other 543 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 2: groups did. They did some interesting things around preferences. They 544 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: wondered if preferences were the same, you know, in the 545 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 2: dream world versus the outside world, and I think they 546 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: found some you know, kind of interesting results there. It 547 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: was almost like the dream the dream personality had some 548 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: different preferences than the non dreaming personality. So that's that's 549 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: kind of fascinating. 550 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: Can you give us an example chocolate? 551 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: You know, it's like, do you like chocolate? And the 552 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 2: the outside was was yes, and the but the dreamer 553 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 2: didn't like chocolate. 554 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: Fascinating. And you know, there was a stety years ago 555 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: which one of my favorites, which is asking the question 556 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: of whether dream time corresponds to real time. And the 557 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: way this was done is the loocid dreamer when they 558 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: become lucid. They you know, give a signal and then 559 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: what they do is they, let's say, look the other way, 560 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: They look to the right, and they estimate five seconds 561 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: inside their dream, and then they look to the right again. 562 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: And of course in the outside world you can look 563 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: at the signal on the electro oculogram and you find 564 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: that in general, dream time corresponds to real time. 565 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that we liked the premise of Christopher 566 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: Nolan's inception that you know each layer in the dream, 567 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: you know the time changes, but we don't really have 568 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 2: any evidence that you know, you can estimate and you 569 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 2: can count that it's about the same. Now, it doesn't 570 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 2: mean definitively that dream time can't be different, but I 571 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 2: think that when people ask me, well, it seems like 572 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: it was so long, what I come back with is like, well, 573 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 2: think about a movie, and how does a movie feel 574 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 2: to you. You can watch a two hour movie and 575 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 2: it can be over a lifetime. There's cut scenes, right, 576 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: And I said, you know, dreams are very similar. There's 577 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 2: these cut scenes, and so they can make the experience 578 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 2: of a twenty minute dream session can feel like you know, hours. 579 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: But so far, the evidence shows that it's about the 580 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: same amount of time. 581 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: That's exactly right, you know. I remember years ago I 582 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: was on a road trip with a buddy and I 583 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: fell asleep for just a second. I woke up and 584 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: he had noticed that I just closed my eyes and 585 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: then woke come up, and I told him about this 586 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: dream that I had. But the dream took a long 587 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: time to describe. But the dream itself was just a moment. 588 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: In the dream, I was standing on a roof and 589 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: I was looking over the city and the city was flooding, 590 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: and I felt so guilty because I had left the 591 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: sink on. I knew I had left to sink on 592 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: and it was my fault that the city was flooding. 593 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: The dream itself was just a second, but in order 594 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: for me to explain it, I had to explain this false, 595 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: implanted memory of having left the sink on and so on, 596 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: and so often there's a lot of confusion about time 597 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: this way. But yeah, I thought that was a fascinating 598 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: study about dream time and real time being able to 599 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: correspond that way. Okay, so JB, tell me about some 600 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: other cool experiments that have been done in lucid dreaming. 601 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 2: Sure, Well, one of the ones that I think is 602 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: perhaps the most notable was nineteen eighty three. We have 603 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 2: to go a ways back, but it's an interesting story. 604 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 2: So there was this was when Stephen was doing his 605 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 2: research and there was a grad student, Beverly de Orso. 606 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: And as it turns out, not even the grad students 607 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 2: under Stephen, you know, they don't always get lucid every 608 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 2: night that they're hooked up to the machines, and it 609 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 2: is very costly to hook up the folks, and so 610 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: when they do get lucid, they're required to write down 611 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: their dream in detail. Well, this one night, it's clear 612 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: she got lucid, she did the signaling, but then there 613 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 2: was nothing in the dream journal. And Stephen asked her, 614 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 2: he said, you know betterly, why why is that you 615 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 2: know that this is really important? She got kind of 616 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 2: embarrassed and she said, well, I had sex in my dream. 617 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: And He's like, that's nothing to being embarrassed about. How 618 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 2: about we experiment and do that and she was up 619 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 2: for it. And so Walter Greenleaf was part of this 620 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: as well, a distinguished Stanford scholar, and so they were 621 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 2: able to hook up additional equipment to you know, measure 622 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 2: things that you would think would be necessary for orgasms 623 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: such as vaginal blood flow and muscle contractions and things 624 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 2: like that. Very scientific and so so the next night 625 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: she went to sleep and she got lucid. And the 626 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 2: funny part of the story is that she gets lucid, 627 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 2: she's in the lab. She remembers the dream task, but 628 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 2: then she sees she's in the lab with her lab 629 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 2: mates and she's like, no, this isn't happening. I'm not 630 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 2: going to write about this. So she flies out of 631 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 2: the building and finds a random stranger to have her 632 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 2: dream sex with, and then of course she wakes up 633 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 2: and reports it. And it is quite amazing that all 634 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: the responses that you would expect for a full sexual 635 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 2: response were measured in the equipment. 636 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: So she was able to achieve orgasm from a lucid dream, 637 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: from a lucid dream, and they were able to measure 638 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: it in consensus reality. So you mentioned the two things 639 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: they're flying and having sex, which I understand are the 640 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 1: two most popular things to do for people who become lucid. 641 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: What else do people do when they become lucid? 642 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 2: Those are by far the most common things. I think 643 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 2: you know other people are they like to meet people. 644 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 2: You know, there's sort of a desire because you can 645 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 2: meet a celebrity or you can, you know, go to 646 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 2: a novel place, drive fast cars. You know. One of 647 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 2: the things that I thought was quite interesting. Robert Wagner 648 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 2: is a long time practitioner and he writes many books, 649 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: and I met him at a conference and one time 650 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 2: he said, you know, Jamie, in my experience, for the 651 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: first five years, people are very headen stick in their 652 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,439 Speaker 2: approach to lucid dreaming. But after that you get into 653 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 2: the more interesting stuff where you can do more self 654 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 2: exploration and things like that. So I think that was 655 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 2: true in my own experience. And then as I've met 656 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 2: other lucid dreamers, depending on how many years they've been 657 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 2: lucid dreaming, they're either still driving fast cars and jumping 658 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 2: off the buildings or they're doing other stuff. 659 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: So let's get back to this issue of how to 660 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: lucid dream because I know a lot of listeners will 661 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: want to start practicing that. So there's this issue of 662 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: doing reality checking. You flick your tooth, you turn the 663 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: light switches on and off, you look at texts like 664 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: in a book or on your watch, You get in 665 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: the habit of doing this all the time until such 666 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: time that you do it and it doesn't work, and 667 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: you think, wait, why didn't that work? And then you realize, 668 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: but what technologies can help us move along to have 669 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: lucid dreams? 670 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 2: Well, the one technology is more pharmological, So there are 671 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 2: some acetacoline enhancers that have been studied. So glant tomine 672 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 2: is one of the ones that has been been studied 673 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 2: and that does induce tends to increase the ability to 674 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 2: have dreams and more vivid dreams, which then leads to 675 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 2: lucid dreaming. So that's certainly one intervention that I would 676 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 2: put in sort of the technology realm. You know, there 677 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 2: are many kickstarter you know, this is interesting because I've 678 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 2: tracked this for years. There's been many kickstarters since Steven's 679 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 2: original Nova Dreamer, which was, you know, a mass that 680 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 2: would flash lights when you became lucid. 681 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: So wait, actually, let's let's let's zoom in on that 682 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: for one second. So the idea was you have a 683 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: mask that's measuring your electro ocograms, measuring your eye movements, 684 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: and it sees that you've gone into rems sleep, you've 685 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: gone into dream sleep. Your eyes are moving back and forth, 686 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: and so then it flashes let's say, red lights at you. 687 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: And the idea is that the dreamer is having this 688 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: normal dream and thinks, wait, what are all these red 689 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,919 Speaker 1: lights going on? Why is everything flashing red? And then thinks, oh, wait, 690 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: I must be inside a dream, and that what's the 691 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: element that you need in order to turn lucid. 692 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 2: Right, It's like a forced dream sign. So, because you 693 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,439 Speaker 2: remember we talked about how dream signs are the triggers, well, 694 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 2: the red lights become something you can kind of bank on. 695 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 2: So when you go to sleep, you can still do 696 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 2: the mnemonic induction. You can say, next time I see 697 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 2: flashing red lights, flashing stop signs, anything to do with redvite, 698 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to know that I'm dreaming. So you still 699 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 2: practice that mnemonic induction, but it's just sort of guaranteed 700 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,240 Speaker 2: because you're going to introduce that stimuli directly. 701 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: And how well do those work? 702 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 2: Risingly not as well as you'd think. So you know, 703 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 2: years later, I was looking at sort of the comparative. 704 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 2: Every five or ten years, somebody does a meta analysis 705 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 2: of all the different methods and stuff, and so you know, 706 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 2: recently a meta analysis showed that that type of induction 707 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 2: isn't as robust as one would think. You know, the 708 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 2: best induction methods are really combinations of things that we've 709 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 2: talked about. So when you combine reality checks with wake 710 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 2: back to bed and if you you know, add an 711 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 2: aceta coleen, you know, enhancer, the kind of the best 712 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 2: results are fifty percent in you know, two or three nights, 713 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 2: seemed to be in sort of the realm of possibility. 714 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 2: But to date, there really hasn't been any technology like 715 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 2: you know, the Nova dreamer, or there's you know, the 716 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 2: REM dreamer, which doesn't really know if you're in REM, 717 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 2: but it just sort of randomly, you know, flashes lights throughout. 718 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 2: I've heard some researchers get their hands on something called 719 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 2: the IBAND, but I don't think that's ever been really 720 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 2: available to the general public. 721 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: And what what is that? What is the I band? 722 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 2: The I band is is very similar. It you know, 723 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 2: measures the EEG and then you know, it flashes a 724 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,760 Speaker 2: red light you know, when when the dreamer is there. 725 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 2: But I think one of the things that I learned 726 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 2: from Stephen and as I've practiced lucid dreams and I've 727 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 2: helped other people over the years, it really does come 728 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 2: down to motivation. You know, he would say that that, 729 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 2: you know, when he had to do his pH d, 730 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 2: when he and to have loocent dreams in order to 731 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 2: get that degree, that made all the difference. And and 732 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 2: I think that's been my experience too. So if you 733 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 2: have the motivation, if you know, if you learn enough 734 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 2: about what's possible, then then you'll you'll have it. I 735 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 2: mean the mind does respond. There's an element of just 736 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 2: sort of the mind body connection of having this intention 737 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 2: to enter this altered state of consciousness, and then you know, 738 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 2: you're motivated to practice the reality checks. You're motivated to 739 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 2: wake up after four and a half hours of sleep 740 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 2: and stay up for ten or fifteen minutes, and you know, 741 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 2: rehearse a dream that you want to have. That's kind 742 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 2: of we didn't talk that much about it, but if 743 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 2: you do the wake back to bed method after waking 744 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 2: up after four or five hours, you do want to 745 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 2: sort of rehearse. You want to just sort of fill 746 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 2: your mind with lucid dreaming. You know, the lucid dream 747 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 2: you want to have, where you want to have it, 748 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 2: what smells, And then as you lie down, you know 749 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 2: you're telling yourself, I want to remember that I'm dreaming. 750 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 2: The next time I'm dreaming, I want to recognize that 751 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 2: I'm dreaming or remember that I'm dreaming, and then you're 752 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 2: more you know, more likely. So that's sort of the 753 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 2: best set of methods to have a lucid dream, but 754 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 2: it takes a lot of motivation to do that. 755 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: A couple of episodes, I talked about what happens when 756 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: we're asleep and how the whole brain does this change 757 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: over The whole factory of the brain switches over from 758 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: waking state to sleeping state, and you know, we lose 759 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: consciousness as one of the results of that. And what's 760 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: so interesting about dreaming is it's a form that is 761 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: like consciousness and lucid dreaming even more so, how do 762 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: you see the relationship between the lucid dream and the 763 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 1: conscious state. 764 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 2: That's a great question and that's been sort of hotly 765 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 2: debated in the dreaming world and the lucid dreaming world 766 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 2: for some time. And because it is difficult to get 767 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 2: subjects lucid with the expensive equipment like an fMRI, there's 768 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 2: not a lot of neural correlates. But I will say 769 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 2: there have been studies of like n of five, you know, 770 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 2: n of six, and based on that data, I believe 771 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 2: it is a hybrid state. And that's you know what 772 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 2: the authors of that study, Ursula ass is the lead 773 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 2: on that that it's a hybrid state. It's not quite 774 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 2: rem and it's definitely not quite waking, but it's it 775 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 2: has little characteristics of both. And again that's sort of 776 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 2: objective measures from the EEG and from fMRI, like what 777 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 2: regions of the brain are activated versus not, and what 778 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 2: type of power and amplitude. And I think, you know, 779 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 2: if I'm honest, my own experience is fairly similar that 780 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 2: when I'm in a lucid state there, I'm most often 781 00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 2: entering that from a period of awakening, you know, so 782 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 2: like the wake back to bed method, and then you 783 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 2: get into this sort of hybrid state. And again many 784 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 2: people subjectively know what you're talking about. You're like, oh, yeah, 785 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 2: I was on that car trip and I zoned out 786 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 2: for a little bit, and then you know, I had 787 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:16,800 Speaker 2: a weird hypnogogic imagery or I had a weird thought 788 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 2: that just didn't feel like it was mine. And so 789 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 2: I think it is hybrid. And if you need a 790 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 2: lot of sleep, you'll be a deep sleeper and you 791 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 2: won't have a lucid dream if you are able to. 792 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 2: If you get up multiple times in the night, you're 793 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 2: probably more likely to have a lucid dream because you're 794 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 2: entering waking state into the dream state multiple times. 795 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: You know, when I think about lucid dreams, I think 796 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: about Stephen Leberge as the guy who pioneered all this. 797 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: But I'm just curious, was there any indication of these 798 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,280 Speaker 1: in the literature, either the scientific literature or in writing 799 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: before Stephen. 800 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:58,760 Speaker 2: Yes, there's a researcher Keith Hearn in Europe right about 801 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 2: the same time as Steve that was doing some of 802 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 2: these experiments with left right, left right, and so he 803 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,879 Speaker 2: certainly gets mentioned a lot of times. And then you can, 804 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,760 Speaker 2: you know, go back to you know, nineteen early nineteen hundreds, 805 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,840 Speaker 2: and you'll see some writings of sort of this idea 806 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 2: of being conscious in the dream state. Ben Eden, I believe, 807 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 2: is who they cred that to. Some have even pointed 808 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 2: farther back. I can't verify whether Aristotle talked about this 809 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 2: state of consciousness or not, but I tend to focus 810 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 2: on the more modern folk. 811 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: Are there any downsides to lucid dreaming. 812 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 2: So some people have raised that concern, and I think 813 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 2: it's a good concern to raise. And the good news 814 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 2: is people have actually started to study it. You know, 815 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,720 Speaker 2: lucid dreaming research has really exploded in the last ten years. 816 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,839 Speaker 2: And so as that research has gone forward, of course 817 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 2: people are looking for kind of novel angles, and so 818 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 2: one of the novel angles in the last five years 819 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 2: is can you show some some downside. So the things 820 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 2: that they looked at were does it increase dissociative behavior? 821 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 2: And so, you know, because in a lucid dream state, 822 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 2: you know, you're in this kind of altered state of 823 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 2: consciousness that might even share some characteristics of things that 824 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,399 Speaker 2: are perceived as negative where you're disassociating from yourself that's 825 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 2: not normally a good thing in waking life. And they 826 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 2: looked at things like sleep quality. Does you know people 827 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,439 Speaker 2: practicing the white back to bed method, does that interrupt sleep? 828 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 2: Does that actually lead to less sleep? And then they 829 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 2: looked at does it lead to nightmares? Are people, you know, 830 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 2: with all this kind of flexibility, does it somehow introduce nightmares? 831 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 2: And there haven't been a lot of studies maybe you know, 832 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 2: five or less and I would say the consensus across 833 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 2: this is that the most negative impact really is in 834 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,760 Speaker 2: the quality of sleep. You're just not sleeping as as deeply, 835 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 2: and so you would I would never recommend that people 836 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 2: try to lucid dream five nights, you know, a week. 837 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 2: But all those other things that they looked at, they 838 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 2: didn't find evidence for it. It didn't increase some sort 839 00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 2: of disassociative behavior, and there really was more positive mood impact. 840 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 2: People really do feel good about lucidream. It's it's like 841 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 2: almost like an accomplishment, and they tend to talk about 842 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 2: it and that leads to sort of an elevated mood. 843 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 2: But it does take away from a good night's sleep, 844 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 2: and therefore not something people are going to do every The. 845 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: Other social disadvantage, of course, is that if you're constantly 846 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: walking into a room and flicking the lights on and 847 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 1: off and seeing if you can knock your tooth off, 848 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: people might think you're strange. 849 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:25,959 Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's fair. 850 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: So what's the research that's really exciting that's going on 851 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:30,240 Speaker 1: right now? 852 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 2: So I think that one of the groups that is 853 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 2: receiving a lot of funding is Martin Dressler out of 854 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,719 Speaker 2: the Netherlands. He has been gathering more and more students 855 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 2: on funding that he's getting. We caught up briefly at 856 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 2: World Sleep in Brazil and really interesting experiments that really 857 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,680 Speaker 2: are building on the things that we've already talked about. 858 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,360 Speaker 2: So think about the natural extension. If you can have 859 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:01,719 Speaker 2: two way communication between an experimenter and a dreamer, is 860 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 2: there anything scientifically or from an engineering perspective that prevents 861 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,320 Speaker 2: that happening from a dreamer to another dreamer? And the 862 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 2: answer is no, So you can bet that some people 863 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 2: are working on that, and you know, might even be 864 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,799 Speaker 2: making PhD thesises out of a dreamer to dreamer communication. 865 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 2: There's another group that I know less about, but they're 866 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 2: certainly publishing a lot of papers. I haven't met these 867 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 2: researchers in person, but they have published on mind controlled 868 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 2: avatars from within the Lucid Dream. Because if you think 869 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 2: about it, you know, in the BCI world, it's not 870 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,880 Speaker 2: that difficult to hook somebody up to an ECG and 871 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,960 Speaker 2: have them control some sort of robot or some sort 872 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,959 Speaker 2: of avatar. Well, of course, a natural extension is like, well, 873 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,439 Speaker 2: in a lucid dream, we've just said, you can send 874 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,880 Speaker 2: off signals with your eyes, could you use that to 875 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 2: control an avatar? And so indeed they published a paper 876 00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 2: on controlling a car avatar just from within the lucid dream. So, 877 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 2: you know, just to make sure we know what we're 878 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 2: talking about. They're in a lucid dream. Their task is 879 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 2: to somehow drive a dream car, but they've been hooked 880 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,800 Speaker 2: up in a BCI format to actually driving a car 881 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 2: in you know the. 882 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: Lab by the way, BCI's brain computer interface. So but 883 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,239 Speaker 1: what in this case EEG or what were they hooked up. 884 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:23,760 Speaker 2: With EEG and EMG? 885 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: So, okay, electromiagram, so it's measuring their muscle. Where was 886 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: the EMG hooked up the EMG? I'm not quite sure where. 887 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,280 Speaker 1: I again, I haven't looked at that one in detail. 888 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:35,799 Speaker 1: I sort of skimmed. 889 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 2: It and thought this would be definitely worth, you know, 890 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 2: talking to them and finding out more. The other thing 891 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 2: that they did that I've always wanted to do. I 892 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 2: what's kind of fun for me is I've had a 893 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 2: lot of these ideas over the years, and then now 894 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 2: I get to see researchers implement them. The other study 895 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,520 Speaker 2: they did was what happens if you consume some sort 896 00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:00,560 Speaker 2: of pharmological substance in a lucid dream says, you know, 897 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,879 Speaker 2: if we think about the Beverly de orso clearly, you know, 898 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 2: by having an engagement of a certain type in the dream, 899 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,799 Speaker 2: such as sex, it led to a physiological response. So 900 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,640 Speaker 2: a natural research question is like, how far does that go? 901 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 2: When you drink alcohol in a dream? Does it have 902 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,560 Speaker 2: any kind of physiological effect if you take ritilin or 903 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 2: if you take some sort of you know, illegal substance. 904 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,400 Speaker 2: And they have a paper on that, and it turns 905 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,239 Speaker 2: out that psychoactive substances taken in the dream have a 906 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 2: stronger perceived effect by the dreamer then like let's say alcohol. 907 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:43,840 Speaker 2: And then they again, according to their research, about twenty 908 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,360 Speaker 2: percent of the respondents who were able to remember to 909 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:52,000 Speaker 2: do the intake had some subjective feeling of that even 910 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 2: after waking up. Now again, I think that's the type 911 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 2: of research that like, hmm, that's very interesting. But I 912 00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,879 Speaker 2: want to see that replicated, and I want to see 913 00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:03,120 Speaker 2: a you know, with you know, thirty people, forty fifty people. So, 914 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 2: but I think it's just it's interesting. It's an interesting thought. 915 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: What is the claim there though, that they're seeing the 916 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,319 Speaker 1: placebo effect of a psychedelic they're just you know, when 917 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 1: someone says, hey, you've taken this drug and then you 918 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: feel like you're drugged even though you're not. That's the 919 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,080 Speaker 1: idea of that exactly. 920 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,000 Speaker 2: I mean, that's even the title of the paper is 921 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 2: is like, you know, placebo without deception. So it's a 922 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,320 Speaker 2: it's a known, you know thing that you are just taking, 923 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,239 Speaker 2: you know, something that is not real quote unquote in 924 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,719 Speaker 2: the dream. But then the placebo effect is is really 925 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 2: well studied. I mean, you know, even again some some 926 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,480 Speaker 2: colleagues at Stanford are looking into that quite quite extensively. 927 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,080 Speaker 2: So I think that's a novel and a very interesting 928 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,520 Speaker 2: application of lucidreaming. 929 00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,279 Speaker 1: It'll be really interesting to see whether this leads to 930 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 1: people being able to heal anything about themselves this way 931 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 1: using a placebo effect with you know, medications in a 932 00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,399 Speaker 1: dream and their leg gets better or some disease state 933 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:00,719 Speaker 1: they have. 934 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,840 Speaker 2: That's right well, And I think the other thing that 935 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,800 Speaker 2: we haven't talked about that's worth mentioning probably one of 936 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:12,200 Speaker 2: the most research areas that's currently therapeutic is PTSD, and 937 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:17,440 Speaker 2: so they're using PTSD and lucid dreaming to help people 938 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,640 Speaker 2: overcome that trauma. And so if, especially if there's a 939 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:25,759 Speaker 2: reoccurring nightmare, it's a bit counterintuitive, but what the participant 940 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 2: has been told is that whatever you're dreaming, even though 941 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,200 Speaker 2: it's very negative and it causes, you know, a strong reaction, 942 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,400 Speaker 2: it's really a disassociated part of yourself. And so in 943 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,960 Speaker 2: the Lucid dream, you have an opportunity to consciously, in 944 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,359 Speaker 2: a very safe environment, you know, act in a different way. 945 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,239 Speaker 2: And so an example of this that I'll just you know, 946 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 2: I'll make up a fictitious example, but it gets the 947 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,960 Speaker 2: point across. Let's say that I have a dream and 948 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,120 Speaker 2: in that dream, a robber you know, comes in and 949 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,839 Speaker 2: breaks into my house and is you know, strangling my son, 950 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,880 Speaker 2: and you know, Lucid dreamer, and they say, I get Lucid. 951 00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,880 Speaker 2: It's like, no, this is you know, my dream sign happened. 952 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,640 Speaker 2: This is my house, but it's in Indiana, And you know, 953 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,200 Speaker 2: I might be tempted to turn into the Incredible Hulk 954 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,440 Speaker 2: and just throw that robber, you know, out of the building. Well, 955 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,000 Speaker 2: sure I could do that, but then if this really 956 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 2: is a recurring nightmare, it's going to come back. Instead, 957 00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,279 Speaker 2: if I recognize it's a dream, and I remember what 958 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,680 Speaker 2: my therapist has told me and say, hey, this robber 959 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,000 Speaker 2: is really a part of me. Then I show it love. 960 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,720 Speaker 2: I actually say, hey, you want to tell me something. 961 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,200 Speaker 2: I love you. You're just a part of me. What's 962 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 2: the message you have for me? And this robber might 963 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,520 Speaker 2: turn to me, he might transform. People talk about it 964 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,319 Speaker 2: transforming into something beautiful, and might say, you're neglecting you 965 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 2: know that the play. There's you, you're you know, your 966 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 2: inner child wants to have more fun or more and 967 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,239 Speaker 2: more play. And that's just, you know, kind of a 968 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,080 Speaker 2: light example, but there are many examples that are you know, 969 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,280 Speaker 2: very significant and that people have had substantial healing where 970 00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,480 Speaker 2: that you know, monster or that aggressor turns into something beautiful. 971 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 2: And then often they'll talk about an experience of it 972 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,080 Speaker 2: kind of coming into their heart. And I think that 973 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,799 Speaker 2: is perhaps at this point in time, from everything I've seen, 974 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,560 Speaker 2: it's perhaps the most beneficial application of lucid dreaming is 975 00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,160 Speaker 2: that you can reintegrate these difficult memories. You can reintegrate 976 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,960 Speaker 2: these difficult parts of your past because the environment's very 977 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:22,560 Speaker 2: safe and somehow you're operating below the conscious mind, you know, 978 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,520 Speaker 2: like this. Even though you have some conscious control, you 979 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,160 Speaker 2: still have about you know, ninety to ninety five percent 980 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 2: of the dream is just generated outside. 981 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:30,600 Speaker 1: Of your control. 982 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,320 Speaker 2: So it's a really unique aspect. 983 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,680 Speaker 1: So there are all kinds of therapeutic roads that might 984 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,279 Speaker 1: be discovered in the future as we get better and 985 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:45,239 Speaker 1: better as a society at implementing lucid dreaming. So, JB, 986 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,440 Speaker 1: you've been exposed to lots of the great minds in 987 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,040 Speaker 1: lucid dreaming. Has anyone else come across your path that 988 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:52,960 Speaker 1: said something influential to you? 989 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,720 Speaker 2: Yes? At Google, actually I found Ray Kurzweil. Many people 990 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 2: may no Ray kurzwhile he's considered a futurist, a great thinker, 991 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,280 Speaker 2: has many patents under his name from his earlier engineering days. 992 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,840 Speaker 2: I found out that he was at Google and I 993 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,840 Speaker 2: came across some of his writings on his blog and 994 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 2: he mentioned, you know, lucid dreaming. So I initiated contact 995 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,759 Speaker 2: with him and we had many good exchanges. And the 996 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,520 Speaker 2: way he described it I thought was very fascinating, you know, 997 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,480 Speaker 2: coming from an engineer's perspective, And he said, you know, JB, 998 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 2: I was trained as an engineer, but in the Lucid 999 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 2: dreaming state. I find that part of the mind that 1000 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,799 Speaker 2: has these constraints that I've sort of learned are you know, hardwired, 1001 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,600 Speaker 2: they get looser, and so I can in this sort 1002 00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,080 Speaker 2: of hybrid state, I can come up with new things 1003 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,920 Speaker 2: that are inventive, and when I wake up, maybe you know, 1004 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 2: eighty percent of it really isn't feasible, it's breaking the 1005 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,960 Speaker 2: laws of physics. But that twenty percent leads to something. 1006 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,719 Speaker 2: And so that is part of why I did get 1007 00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,120 Speaker 2: quite excited about it, and I thought, you know, engineers 1008 00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 2: or creative types really can ben ait fit from this. 1009 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,920 Speaker 2: And you know, taking that one step, you know further, 1010 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,720 Speaker 2: you might say, well, how what what exactly? Well, remember 1011 00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:09,960 Speaker 2: when we talked about you know, the first five years, 1012 00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,799 Speaker 2: you know, becomes a bit you know, hedonistic. After that, well, 1013 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,160 Speaker 2: you can actually just call out to the dream world. 1014 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,480 Speaker 2: You don't even have to invent a scenario. You can 1015 00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,960 Speaker 2: just say show me something beautiful. Let's say you're an 1016 00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,560 Speaker 2: artist and I've done that phrase and you know, out 1017 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,520 Speaker 2: of the ground form this incredible marble, you know, statue 1018 00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,719 Speaker 2: that I wish I was, you know, a sculptor, and 1019 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,200 Speaker 2: I think, you know, it's getting to that aspect that 1020 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,880 Speaker 2: Ray talked about, like, you're in this unique state imagine 1021 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,240 Speaker 2: as an inventor, as a writer, you could just prompt 1022 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,319 Speaker 2: and so you know, when I see chat, GPT and 1023 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,600 Speaker 2: prompt engineering, I immediately think of you need prompt engineering 1024 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,200 Speaker 2: for lucid dreaming because you literally can just prompt your mind. 1025 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,479 Speaker 2: Show me what you know. I'm most afraid of, show 1026 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:57,719 Speaker 2: me something beautiful. Stephen's favorite question is show me the 1027 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,280 Speaker 2: best version of myself. You know, that was the question 1028 00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:03,600 Speaker 2: that he thought, you know, leads to sort of the 1029 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,600 Speaker 2: highest expression of what's possible. And so I would really 1030 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,279 Speaker 2: encourage people to, you know, learn how to lose a 1031 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,520 Speaker 2: dream and then think about what do they want to see, 1032 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,759 Speaker 2: what do they want to create, what do they want 1033 00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 2: to perhaps, you know, explore about themselves, because there's really 1034 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,600 Speaker 2: no other place where you can do that that is 1035 00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,000 Speaker 2: so safe and it's just coming from your own mind 1036 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,560 Speaker 2: and you don't need to use any substances, you know, 1037 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 2: to get into that state of consciousness. 1038 00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,640 Speaker 1: So that was my interview with Jonathan Barnt, and what 1039 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:39,880 Speaker 1: we see is that first of all, achieving lucidity isn't easy, 1040 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,839 Speaker 1: but if you practice and get good headed, there are 1041 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:48,839 Speaker 1: opportunities for personal insight and problem solving and artistic inspiration, 1042 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:54,600 Speaker 1: possibly overcoming nightmares, and all kinds of exploration. So as 1043 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,439 Speaker 1: a reminder, if you want to try lucid dreaming, there 1044 00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,600 Speaker 1: are several techniques to pursue. First is keep a dream journal, 1045 00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,440 Speaker 1: write everything down from your dreams when you wake up. 1046 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,480 Speaker 1: This is really the only way to do dream recall, 1047 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,360 Speaker 1: so that you can then look across a bunch of 1048 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,960 Speaker 1: your dreams and start to recognize dream signs. In other words, 1049 00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,000 Speaker 1: this sort of wacky thing shows up in my dreams 1050 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,600 Speaker 1: a lot, but rarely or never in real life, so 1051 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: when you see it, you should be more likely to 1052 00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,720 Speaker 1: recognize that you are dreaming. Then there are all the 1053 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:33,680 Speaker 1: techniques for reality testing. These all involve checking your environment 1054 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,080 Speaker 1: several times a day to see whether you're dreaming. So, 1055 00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:39,920 Speaker 1: for example, you look at a digital clock and then 1056 00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:41,920 Speaker 1: you look away, and then you look back at the 1057 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,160 Speaker 1: clock again to see if the time has changed in 1058 00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:48,280 Speaker 1: some weird way. The key is to get into the 1059 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,080 Speaker 1: habit of doing this. Most of the time, you'll be 1060 00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,600 Speaker 1: doing this in real life and it won't change, And 1061 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,080 Speaker 1: then at some point you'll do that habitually in a dream, 1062 00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,680 Speaker 1: and then you'll say, whoa or is John Nathan mentioned 1063 00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:03,920 Speaker 1: you can try pinching your nose and trying to breathe in. 1064 00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,200 Speaker 1: You get in the habit of doing that several times 1065 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:09,680 Speaker 1: a day, and in real life you'll never be able 1066 00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:11,680 Speaker 1: to breathe in. But at some point you'll do this 1067 00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:15,600 Speaker 1: and you'll breathe in and you'll think, Wow, that's weird. 1068 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,560 Speaker 1: Oh wait a minute, And there are lots of techniques 1069 00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 1: you can try here. Another one is placing your fingers 1070 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,880 Speaker 1: against the palm of your other hand and trying to 1071 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,960 Speaker 1: push them through. That won't work in real life, that 1072 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,880 Speaker 1: can sometimes work in a dream. So think of what 1073 00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,680 Speaker 1: techniques you might want to use for reality testing. And 1074 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,040 Speaker 1: the idea is that if you get in the habit 1075 00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:39,919 Speaker 1: of running these checks frequently during the day, it makes 1076 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:43,880 Speaker 1: it more likely that you'll perform them in a dream, 1077 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,720 Speaker 1: and that can trigger lucidity. There are several other kinds 1078 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:51,600 Speaker 1: of complementary techniques, some of which Jonathan mentioned like the 1079 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,560 Speaker 1: wake back to bed method, which involves waking yourself up 1080 00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,040 Speaker 1: after five to six hours of sleep, and you stay 1081 00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: awake for a little bit and then you go act 1082 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:04,240 Speaker 1: to sleep with the intention of entering a lucid dream. Now, 1083 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,080 Speaker 1: this method works because you have more rem sleep in 1084 00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:10,040 Speaker 1: the second half of the night, and so that enhances 1085 00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,840 Speaker 1: the chances of becoming lucid, and most lucid dreamers find 1086 00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:18,840 Speaker 1: that combining techniques increases their success rate. Just be aware 1087 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,040 Speaker 1: that this requires patience and a lot of practice. You 1088 00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,800 Speaker 1: probably won't achieve lucidity on your first try, but keep 1089 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:29,520 Speaker 1: trying and you'll get there. Okay, So let's wrap up. 1090 00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,520 Speaker 1: This was the third of a three parter. The first 1091 00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:37,320 Speaker 1: wason Why Brains Sleep, The next was on why Brain's Dream, 1092 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,680 Speaker 1: and this episode covered a rare and special form of dreaming, 1093 00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:46,040 Speaker 1: lucid dreaming. So hopefully you've learned several things that you 1094 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 1: didn't previously know. But truthfully, there are still a lot 1095 00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:53,160 Speaker 1: of things that we still don't understand. As just one example, 1096 00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,880 Speaker 1: there's the issue of the false memories inside a dream. 1097 00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,080 Speaker 1: So I mentioned it to Jonathan Earl that I had 1098 01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:03,760 Speaker 1: had this one second micro sleep when I was on 1099 01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,280 Speaker 1: a road trip with a friend, and when trying to 1100 01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,840 Speaker 1: describe what happened, it took a long time. Now, the 1101 01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,800 Speaker 1: reason was that the dream itself was simply I was 1102 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,360 Speaker 1: standing on the top of roof looking at a city flooding. 1103 01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,600 Speaker 1: But I had a whole set of false memories how 1104 01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,760 Speaker 1: I had left to sink on because I wasn't thinking 1105 01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,920 Speaker 1: and not taking appropriate responsibility, and I had all these 1106 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,200 Speaker 1: feelings of guilt because it seemed so stupid that I 1107 01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,840 Speaker 1: had done that. I felt regret, And now I was 1108 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,600 Speaker 1: in a situation of figuring out what this meant for 1109 01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,280 Speaker 1: the city and for me personally, and how much trouble 1110 01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:39,520 Speaker 1: I was going to be in, how guilty I felt 1111 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:43,280 Speaker 1: about flooding everything. But the dream itself only took a 1112 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,960 Speaker 1: fraction of a second. And the question is where did 1113 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,280 Speaker 1: all the memories of having done that come from? And 1114 01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:53,040 Speaker 1: why were they so believable to me in that moment? 1115 01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:57,120 Speaker 1: And another related question I've always had is how can 1116 01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:02,200 Speaker 1: characters in our dreams surprise Someone will often say something 1117 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,640 Speaker 1: to you in a dream and you'll think, Wow, that 1118 01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:06,920 Speaker 1: doesn't feel like something I would have thought of, But 1119 01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:09,480 Speaker 1: it was your brain that came up with it. Now, 1120 01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,800 Speaker 1: just to be clear, this can result from random hurricanes 1121 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,320 Speaker 1: of activity in the depths of your unconscious brain, all 1122 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,000 Speaker 1: of the stuff that you don't have access to awareness of, 1123 01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,360 Speaker 1: and it doesn't necessarily have to be meaningful, like a 1124 01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,360 Speaker 1: deep hidden message. But again, the part that weirds me 1125 01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,560 Speaker 1: out is that your brain can serve up this very 1126 01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,640 Speaker 1: weird stuff to you and it is totally believed by you, 1127 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:38,000 Speaker 1: which should make us appropriately suspicious of all the things 1128 01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:41,560 Speaker 1: that we believe in waking life. As you know from 1129 01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,360 Speaker 1: this episode In the last I don't think that dreams 1130 01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:49,080 Speaker 1: necessarily have meaning, but they may provide an interesting tool 1131 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,920 Speaker 1: to explore the boundaries of our own consciousness. If we 1132 01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:57,160 Speaker 1: agree that the mind is the final frontier, dreams may 1133 01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:01,120 Speaker 1: be one way that we can navigate its depth. Until 1134 01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,920 Speaker 1: next time, keep dreaming and I'll see you in the 1135 01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:10,680 Speaker 1: next episode. I'll link lots of papers about lucid dreaming 1136 01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,880 Speaker 1: at eagleman dot com slash podcasts, so don't forget to 1137 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,760 Speaker 1: go there, and I'd love to hear about your experiences 1138 01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:20,320 Speaker 1: or your questions about lucid dreaming. So send me a 1139 01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:23,200 Speaker 1: note at podcast at eagleman dot com to let me 1140 01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,360 Speaker 1: know your thoughts. If you enjoy these episodes, please consider 1141 01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,960 Speaker 1: leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform, and check 1142 01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,160 Speaker 1: out and subscribe to Inner Cosmos on YouTube for videos 1143 01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:36,760 Speaker 1: of each episode and to leave comments until next time, 1144 01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:40,160 Speaker 1: I'm David Eagleman and this is Inner Cosmos.