1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:02,080 Speaker 1: Trust me? 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 2: Do you trust me? 3 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 3: Right? 4 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 2: Ever lead you astrayed? 5 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 3: Trust? 6 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 2: This is the truth, the only truth. If anybody ever 7 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 2: tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to trust me. 8 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two 9 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 2: advocates of support groups who've actually experienced it. 10 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 4: I'm Lola Blong and I am Megan Elizabeth. 11 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: Yes you are, Yes I am. Today's Part two with 12 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 2: our guests Mike and Abby Prussach, former members of Megan's cult, 13 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: the Two y twos also known as The Truth also 14 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 2: known as The Way, and Mike and Abby are also 15 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: moderators of the former two by two Facebook group. So 16 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 2: last week we talked to them about their upbringings in 17 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 2: the secretive Christian sect and how they met. This week, 18 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 2: we're going to talk to them about what led them 19 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: to start the support group for ex members and the 20 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: explosive revelation about a church leader's sexual abuse, and just 21 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 2: to clarify, this is not my cult. The former former 22 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: I was a member. Yes, born men, now you started it? Okay. 23 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 4: We'll dig into more of the bi investigation of the 24 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 4: widespread sexual abuse, the scope of the group's internal cover ups, 25 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 4: and how they moved perpetrators around instead of contacting the 26 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 4: authorities and the number of people who've been leaving. 27 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 3: As a result. 28 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: Before we jump in with them, Megan, I would love 29 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: to know your cultiest thing of the Wei. Well. 30 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 4: I have been reading about tech bros a lot lately, 31 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 4: as one does, as one does, and the new fad, 32 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 4: and it's probably not new. The new talk of the 33 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 4: town is an old fad. That is tech bros Are 34 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 4: getting facelifts. The quote is that you should never hire 35 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 4: someone over thirty too techow. 36 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: So, I mean, the advance. 37 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:52,559 Speaker 4: Of facelifts are probably getting so good because of these 38 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 4: men needing to look like they're thirty, and sometimes they 39 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 4: actually do. 40 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: Some of the work is pretty incredible. I mean we've 41 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: seen face faces have gotten really good. They've gotten incredibly 42 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: used to be kind of a kind of a what 43 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 2: is the word that I want you would be cursed 44 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: to looking weird forever. Yeah, they're that quinde of like 45 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: you can either look old or weird. Yeah, now you 46 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: can look pretty young. And Jenner's face a little amazing. 47 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I've seen it without the filter and it is 48 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 4: a bit different, but it's still I mean, let's not 49 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 4: name some of the younger actresses that have recently and 50 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 4: they look great. They look and bully, I understand the 51 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 4: instincts same. So but you know, so we're not facelifts shaming. 52 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 4: I'm not gonna name anybody, but it is weird for 53 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 4: men or it's less common. 54 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's less common. Thank you. Did I say it 55 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 2: was weird? 56 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 3: Yes? 57 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was wrong with me. It's less common for 58 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: you know, I think of like tech guys like Bill 59 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: Gates are like freaking nerds, like nerds, yeah yeah, and 60 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: and not getting face lifts. I mean it is. It's 61 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: interesting how this area that was traditionally a nerd zone, 62 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: where it was like kind of the whole thing was 63 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: that you weren't cool y has kind of evolved into 64 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: this like we're the hot guys, the ridge guys, and 65 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: having to do a lot of plastic surgery to maintain that. 66 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: The and like we talked about on the in Cell 67 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: episode with tem Squirrel, you know, the things that this 68 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: group of people in particular are like wemen, like a 69 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: big jaw and then like suddenly there's jaw surgeries. Well, 70 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: and with Arabella Sicardi too, we like it is actually 71 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: interesting to me because one of the things we talked 72 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: about with them in that episode was how typically with women, 73 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: the anti aging emphasis is on the external appearance, and 74 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: with men it's more on life extension than living forever. 75 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: So it's interesting to hear that this faction of men 76 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: are actually now also focusing on the external appearance. Yeah. 77 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm looking at a tech bro right here. 78 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: His face, Louff looks great. I know, it sucks, It sucks. 79 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: I don't want us to feel like that looks great, 80 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? 81 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know I wish it looked worse. But he 82 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 4: looks incredible, really good. I'm sure he's just cash, just cash, 83 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 4: and in the checks. 84 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a testament to agism, still seeing very 85 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: much rampant in our society. But I am. 86 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 4: I am really digging deeper into those cults of the 87 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 4: tech bro and it's a fascinating world. Yeah. I think 88 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 4: as the years go on, we're going to have a 89 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 4: lot more information to look back on and a lot 90 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 4: of Yeah, you know, I think it's just going to 91 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 4: be a very very interesting conversation. 92 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:44,559 Speaker 2: Definitely. Can I shamelessly self promo for a second, sure, 93 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: you guys, I made a music video about aging. Have 94 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: we talked about this on here at all? I think 95 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: so it's the woman dancing, yes, yeah, did we talk 96 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 2: about it? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, But go on, Okay, I 97 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: don't remember talking about it, okay, because I have been 98 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: frustrated with this trope and horror movies, because I'm a 99 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: horror filmmaker, but I'm also a music hers. She got 100 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: shut up, Lola, But I have been corustrated with this 101 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: trope of like the old woman is like scary as 102 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: she's a monster because she has like low hanging boobs 103 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: and wrinkles on her face, and it's like such a comment. 104 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 2: It's called whatever. It's a subgenre called hag's ploitation is 105 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: the trope. But I did make a music video starring 106 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: an older dancer who we aged up to look even older, 107 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: and the whole video is her defying this expectation that 108 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: she will be scary simply because she looks old. Anyway, 109 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: I was just trying to interrogate this idea that like 110 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: aging is inherently scary or something to be afraid of, 111 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: and it's called Dear Sarah, if anyone's interested. That is 112 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: my spiel on aging. But of course, as I say this, 113 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: I am actively putting retinol on my face every now 114 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: and getting, you know, like, yeah. 115 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 4: You suggested a face feel to me. That almost murdered me. 116 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 4: I'm going to do more. 117 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 2: Oh man, that was the worst in my life. That 118 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 2: was the worst day. What about you? What's your cultist thing? 119 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: Uh So? I found an article that two of our 120 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: previous guests are quoted in, and it is a huff 121 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: Post article called The One Thing. All though this is 122 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: a misleading title because it's multiple things. The one thing 123 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: called experts want you to do when talking to your 124 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: MAGA relatives. Oh and see Passen is of course the 125 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: main interview, and as well as Danielle and mastienek Young 126 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: and I feel like I'm saying her name wrong but 127 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: hopefully not so. First thing it says is ask a 128 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 2: good question. This is something we have. We've talked about 129 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: all of this, but sometimes it's good to just have 130 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: a refresher because there's so much division and polarization right 131 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: now in family, Yennie, You've got to go back to 132 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: the fundamentals. Yeah, So ask a good question instead of 133 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: telling them why they're wrong, Ask why they believe what 134 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 2: they believe. Get curious, ask from a place of kindness 135 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: and empathy, like, that's interesting, what's important to you about that? 136 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: What do you think of that? So are you saying 137 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 2: that you believe in that? Because of X? The curiosity? 138 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: And also it can be helpful for people to have 139 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: to really think about why they believe what they believe, 140 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,679 Speaker 2: because so often we don't think about why we believe 141 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: what we believe. We just sort of assume we believe it. 142 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: So when you have to say it in your own words, 143 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: that also can be like a challenge, like to question 144 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: whether or not that's yeah, understand. 145 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 4: And on the flip side, like, I'm sure every single 146 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 4: person alive believes something untrue. So maybe a family member 147 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 4: asks you a question and you can explore your own beliefs. 148 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: From a gentle place. And like I have I have 149 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 2: a you know, we all know I'm quite left, but 150 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: I have conservative family members most I would say conservative 151 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: family members outside of my immediate family, and we are 152 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: able to talk about what we believe because we know 153 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: that we love each other and we're coming from a 154 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: place of wanting to know. But the only reason why 155 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: I can tell them what I believe is because they 156 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: are showing me curiosity and vice versa, like if it's 157 00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: coming when it comes from that attacking place, it just 158 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: like it just goes nowhere and then we just get angry. 159 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 4: Does it ever change your views or like move you 160 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 4: in any sort of way. 161 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: Not necessarily, because I generally am the things I believe 162 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: I read a lot about, but I will say like 163 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: it gives me a lot more empathy for why people 164 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: believe what they believe and what the perspective that they're 165 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 2: coming from. And I find over and over again that 166 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 2: we share so many of the same core beliefs and values, 167 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 2: but we are being fed really really different information around it. 168 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 2: And I have come to middle ground with family members certainly, 169 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: although of course there are some issues that are just 170 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: like too spicy and we are not able to get there. 171 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: But it depends on it depends on I'm talking to. Yeah. 172 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: The article also says come prepared with your own gentle rebuttal. 173 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 2: This one's hard because I really think that the immediate 174 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: rebuttal can be tricky. That was a Daniella recommendation. She 175 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: suggested some ways you can respond, saying, can I share 176 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 2: why I'm concerned? Would you be open to reading a 177 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: source I trust in my experience, people aren't super responsive 178 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: still when it's immediate when you're because it still feels 179 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: like you're trying to debunk them. I haven't really encountered 180 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: that being effective, but in certain cases when the person 181 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 2: is curious, yeah, definitely. And then it says no, your 182 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 2: own triggers and theirs, so that you're not just evolving 183 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: into conflict. And then it says, be prepared to safely disengage. 184 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,719 Speaker 2: I love you too much to argue with you about this. 185 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: I've learned that these that's cute. Yeah, I've learned that 186 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: these conversations don't feel good or helpful to me, you know. 187 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: I want to focus on connecting with you. And then, 188 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: of course the final one, which we talk about all 189 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: the time. Keep a tether to your previous relationship, keep 190 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: them in your life even when it's a challenge. Yep, 191 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: unless they're unless they are abusing you or or just 192 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: you know, being outwardly hateful or something. Yeah. 193 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 4: And I will say that the two by twos have 194 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 4: a nice little system go going on that really de 195 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 4: escalates things like this, because we have so many board 196 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 4: games because we didn't grow up with television, so like 197 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 4: we just go straight. 198 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: To a game like if their conflict is rising, you 199 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 2: just play games. Yeah, that's kind of cool, or like 200 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: kind yeah what games? 201 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 4: You know, there's a game that we're really obsessed with, 202 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 4: to the point that one of my cousins has like 203 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 4: a headlamp with a light on it because it's like 204 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 4: a color game where you try to explain a color 205 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 4: and everybody puts it. 206 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 5: I don't know what this game is called, but everyone 207 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 5: puts a headlamp on. Everyone doesn't put a head lamp on, 208 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 5: just headlamp on. Just my cousin who is very very 209 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 5: competitive about this game. Okay, But but all the normal 210 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 5: games that one would go to is what we jump. 211 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 2: To, Oh like Monopoly, Yeah, Taboo? Yeah, I love Taboo. 212 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: Best game. 213 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 4: There's one called God what is it called. We go 214 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 4: to it a lot, but you know, as something that 215 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 4: you can kind of do a. 216 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 2: Group nope, where you can disengage, yeah, instead of instead 217 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: of devolving into conflict. God, it's so hard. Yeah. 218 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 4: And I'm going home for the holidays. Family is still 219 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 4: in the system that we're discussing today, So I totally 220 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 4: understand how holiday stuff can be awkward. 221 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 2: It truly can. Yeah. 222 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I still want to go because I love 223 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 4: my family and it's like a very complex little thing. 224 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's so tough. I'm just thinking back to 225 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: something that happened with me this summer where I got 226 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 2: I got really I was struggling to keep mich cool. 227 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: It just happened. It's going to happen, yep, and it's 228 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 2: going to happen in the other direction too. They also feel, yeah, yeah, 229 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: it's it's wild, but it's it's worth keeping the communication 230 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: lines open and education and curiosity and compassion. Look at 231 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: those three. See that I just pulled out my butthole. Okay, 232 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: that you pulled out of your bee three seas from 233 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: your three seas from my bee. It's a butthole. That's 234 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: that's trademark, actually, guys. Yeah, and we'll keep reminding y'all 235 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 2: every year before the holidays, Yes we will. So do 236 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: not explode with your family over politics or religion. 237 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, but anyway, today's guests, Mike and Abby are absolutely incredible. 238 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 4: They are a great example of staying connected to people 239 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 4: and keeping that line of dialogue open and what it 240 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 4: can bring, which is an amazing community that's helped so 241 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 4: many to bitoes. I really appreciate them taking the time 242 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 4: and the information that they have so painstake in me 243 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 4: collected and share. And we do talk in this episode 244 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 4: about sexual abuse and sexual misconducts, So take care listening. 245 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 4: Shall we talk to them? Let's do it. 246 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: So you end up leaving the church, what leads you 247 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: to start this Facebook group that you run? 248 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 6: So Kyle and Cary, we had been friends with them 249 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 6: throughout all this whole period, So we left in twenty ten. 250 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 6: They left like around the pandemic, so around twenty twenty one, 251 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 6: and where they were one of the friendships that actually lasted, 252 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,599 Speaker 6: you know, despite us not being in the church for 253 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 6: that long, and you know, around twenty twenty it kind 254 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 6: of broke for them and they decided to leave. And 255 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 6: it was really kind of a I think they realized 256 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 6: just how lonely it was leaving that community, and so 257 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 6: they asked us if we wanted to start a support 258 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 6: group on Facebook, and we said, yep, let's do it. 259 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 6: So in twenty twenty two January, I think we started 260 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 6: that group together and yeah, it grew at a moderate 261 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 6: pace at that point, and by twenty twenty three March 262 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 6: of twenty twenty three, it was up to about nine 263 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 6: hundred members, which is probably about the point that things 264 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 6: are gonna Well, we've already talked to Colin Cary about 265 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 6: all of that, so you can. 266 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 2: Give us a refresher. Yeah, yeah, please. 267 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 6: So in March or twenty twenty three, allegations came to 268 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 6: light about Dean Brewer, who was an overseer in organ 269 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 6: and we got our hands on an internal letter that 270 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 6: was describing his abuse and put it online and all 271 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 6: hell broke loose. 272 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: Of note is that he had passed away almost a 273 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: year before. 274 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: And when we say abuse, remind us what we're talking about. 275 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 6: So we're talking about child sexual abuse and sexual assault 276 00:14:54,200 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 6: on adult women. And yeah, so it's really hard to 277 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 6: describe how that broke the damn, but it just did. 278 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 6: Like even on that first post of that letter, there 279 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 6: were people disclosing their abuse in the comments already, and 280 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 6: it just kept on coming. Just hundreds and hundreds of 281 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 6: survivors started telling their stories, and you know, sometimes it 282 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 6: was in the comments, it was Facebook posts, it was 283 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 6: just people really just I think there was an opportunity 284 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 6: for the truth to come out, and everybody really really 285 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 6: took it and ran with it. 286 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: So there's been just so much has happened since then. 287 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I remember when you first were like, there's 288 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: a Facebook group for two by two. It is crazy 289 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: how much has happened since then. What has come to 290 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: light maybe the nut shell version and then we can 291 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: kind of talk about more recent developments, if that makes sense. 292 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, So what has come to light is literally over 293 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 6: a thousand perpetrators of sexual abuse and whether it be 294 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 6: child sexual abuse or a sexual assault on adults. 295 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 3: And these are just cases that have been disclosed to 296 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 3: various places in the community. 297 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 6: And this is in a church that, prior to COVID 298 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 6: was around seventy five thousand based on good estimates. Obviously, 299 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 6: we don't have any solid information about the numbers in 300 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 6: the church because they don't publish them. 301 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: They don't I don't even know if they keep them. 302 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 6: And so yeah, over one thousand perpetrators is quite a 303 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 6: significant percentage. 304 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: And this is happening like in people's homes. These are 305 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: people of authority and there's just like a power dynamic 306 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: and also like they're in the family space, right. 307 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 6: Yeah, those allegations are based on our data. Between thirty 308 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 6: five and forty percent are minister's workers. And then the 309 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 6: remaining are elders just members. Okay, Yeah, so it kind 310 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 6: of spans across all those demographics, and. 311 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 3: For most of those cases, somebody knew and didn't do anything. 312 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 3: So the percentage of abusers in a population, you know, 313 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 3: you usually kind of weed them out as you find out, 314 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 3: and they never did. So the percentage of abusers in 315 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 3: the population just kind of seems like it just grew 316 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 3: and prospered and they were just typically moved to different areas, 317 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 3: or the survivor was just kind of isolated and they left, 318 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: or they were told not to say anything, or they 319 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: were revictimized in a way that made them feel unsafe 320 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: say anything. But then when you feel a nice the world, 321 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 3: they stay in the church and it's just a horrible mess. 322 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, victims were told to forgive, you know, weaponized forgiveness, 323 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 4: and then at the same time, it's like there was 324 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 4: no forgiveness if you cut your bangs or war pants 325 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 4: as a woman, right, So it just this very ripe 326 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 4: place for abuse is fostered. 327 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 2: I mean, you couldn't. It's almost like it was purposefully 328 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 2: manicured that way. 329 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 6: Yeah, having the minister is staying in the homes, even 330 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 6: in some cases sleeping in the same rooms as the 331 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 6: kids when they would stay. 332 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 3: At home, Especially in previous generations, that was a lot 333 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 3: more common. 334 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's terrifying. And so let's say an incident happens 335 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 2: and it's reported to someone. 336 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, let's say like one of the workers does something 337 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 4: to somebody and the elder or their parents bring it 338 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 4: to an elder or an overseer. 339 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: I think usually you guys would know more than me. 340 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 4: But it's kind of a conversation of like, Okay, we 341 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 4: talked to them, let's move on to the forgiveness process, 342 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 4: and if it's. 343 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: Particularly bad, we're going to move them to. 344 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 4: A new area where no one knows that this happened 345 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 4: at all, and they'll just start staying in new kids' houses. 346 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: Is that a good paraphrase? 347 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah? 348 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like how many were 349 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 6: actually reported to the authorities, and I can maybe find 350 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 6: like a handful of instances where where an overseer found 351 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 6: out about abuse and actually reported it. 352 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's not a thing really. 353 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 354 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,239 Speaker 3: In fact, I mean they even put out communications that 355 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 3: told people not to and it told they told people to. 356 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 3: What was it they needed to think? 357 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: They said to it. 358 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 6: If you find out about abuse, tell a a therapist, 359 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 6: so that then the onus is on the therapist to report, 360 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 6: not on you the worker to have to report. 361 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 3: Right, but the therapist doesn't have enough info to do 362 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 3: anything about it anyway. And it was only if you 363 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 3: absolutely have to, So it was literally, don't report it 364 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 3: unless you really have to, then maybe tell somebody else 365 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 3: and just like then you can wipe your hands and 366 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 3: and if they feel obligated to report it, they will 367 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 3: without very much information. 368 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: And I'm assuming the thinking is similar to what it 369 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: often is in situations like this, where they don't want 370 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: a bad reputation. Is that kind of. 371 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 3: Well, they don't want any reputation. They don't want They 372 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 3: didn't want to be known for a church that has 373 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 3: the one and only way to heaven. It's really strange 374 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 3: how much they didn't want to be known. They they 375 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 3: want everything to stay secret. They don't want any information 376 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 3: to get into the wrong hands. You know, they told 377 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 3: people to at times, they told people to burn or 378 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 3: shred the lists the worker lists after they're done with 379 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 3: that year. Never really explained why, but just in case 380 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 3: they get in the wrong hands, or to not to 381 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 3: destroy your notes after you're done with them, that type 382 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 3: of thing. They really didn't want to be known as 383 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 3: an entity. 384 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 6: Right, So that there was definitely like the preservation of 385 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 6: the church, the church's image, at least for the people 386 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 6: that were in the church, right. But also they really 387 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 6: believe that if people were cast out of meetings, were 388 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 6: told not to attend, that they were going to be 389 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 6: sending them to hell. And so when you literally feel 390 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 6: like you are so you know, say an overseers in 391 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 6: that position of authority, he literally believes that if he 392 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 6: tells this person they can't go to meeting anymore, that 393 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 6: that's the equivalent of sending them to hell, because meeting 394 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 6: attendance is required for salvation in their eyes. 395 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 4: Wow, I didn't know that. That's fascinating. But at the 396 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 4: same token, I do know people who have been asked 397 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 4: to not attend meetings or asked not to speak at meetings. 398 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 4: That's another thing. We're the ones who speak at meetings. 399 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 4: It's the whole thing because they addressed too flamboyantly. So 400 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 4: there is a willingness to lose a person who doesn't 401 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 4: look the part, but there's no willingness to lose a 402 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 4: person who might be doing crazy things, but they're kind 403 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 4: of like fitting the part right well. 404 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 3: And the idea is that you can repent from things 405 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: that you've done in the past, but if you're willfully 406 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 3: participating now, then you're not repenting. Right. So if you're 407 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 3: wearing pants to meeting right now, that's a current choice, 408 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: and if you were to stop doing that, you could 409 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 3: stay in meetings, right. And so for somebody who has 410 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 3: hurt a person, it's in the past, right And if 411 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,959 Speaker 3: they say all, I've repented and the workers have decided 412 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 3: to accept that, like, it's not the same thing as 413 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 3: choosing to participate in gay relationships, you know what I mean. 414 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 3: That's their justification is that you are continuing to choose 415 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 3: it and act on. 416 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 2: That it's a past transgression. 417 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, And of course, as we've found out, they're repentant. 418 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 4: I'm putting it in quotation marks, but continue to do it. 419 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 4: It's just the secret. 420 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: So it isn't earrings that a woman is wearing an 421 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: our head that we're not allowed to do. It's a 422 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: secret that they're able to get away with. Are there 423 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 2: any numbers on like how many people were just kind 424 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: of moved and then perpetrated again in the new area. 425 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 6: We have data that probably could could be compiled about that, 426 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 6: but I don't have the numbers readily available. I would 427 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 6: say it's definitely in the dozens, if not higher, of 428 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 6: ones that were definitely moved from place to place after 429 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 6: their allegations were known. 430 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: What's happening right now, because aren't there haven't there been 431 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 2: like a ton of ongoing authority investigation stuff? 432 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? So in what was it? 433 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 6: At Thanksgiving twenty twenty three, we were at Kyle and 434 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 6: Carry's house for Thanksgiving and Cary got a call from 435 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 6: a random number and it turned out it was the 436 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 6: FBI trying to, you know, dig up a little bit 437 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 6: more information. They already had quite a bit of information 438 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 6: by that point. I think their investigation has started in 439 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 6: the summer of twenty twenty three, and then in February 440 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 6: twenty four they formally publicly announced their investigation and they 441 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 6: put up a website to track tips and go from there. 442 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 2: The FBI, the FBI did, yeah. 443 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they called Cary. When Cary got back on 444 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 3: the phone with them, she said, actually, we're here with 445 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 3: Mike and abb and he says, oh yeah, I'm familiar 446 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 3: with with all of you. 447 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: Oh wow, oh yeah, yeah, are there specific people that 448 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 2: have been prosecuted or are indicted or anything. 449 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 6: Nothing from the FBI has happened at all yet, and 450 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 6: you know, they're very tight lipped. They don't share with 451 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 6: us like what their plan is or what's going on. 452 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 6: We just we give them information sometimes for things that 453 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 6: we think are important, and they say, okay, thanks, that's 454 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 6: about it. 455 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 3: That's how they are with everyone. Yeah, that's that's their standard. 456 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 6: We're we're estimating it's going to be years probably before 457 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 6: anything actually happens. They're building a case, and we're really 458 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 6: hopeful that the current administration stuff doesn't mess with anything 459 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 6: going on with that investigation. 460 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: But time will tell. 461 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of cuts too, right. 462 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 3: I know that they've done like thousands of interviews. I 463 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 3: think it's thousands. There was a time when tons of 464 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 3: people were getting interviewed and that seems to have slowed down. 465 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 3: So it's impossible to know where it all is. And 466 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 3: we certainly have some cases where we're like this one 467 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 3: would be good to prosecute. It's all over the place. 468 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 3: It's egregious. There's lots of people who want to, you know, talk, 469 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 3: and it doesn't seem like anything's happening, and I think 470 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 3: that's frustrating for a lot of people. But we also 471 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 3: know that this goes really slowly, so they're not going 472 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 3: to probably pick off one person at a time. You know, 473 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 3: that kind of gives everybody else the idea that they 474 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 3: need to you know, that it's serious and maybe they 475 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 3: should flee. So it's possible that they're building a case 476 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 3: that will come together very quickly at the end, you 477 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 3: know that we'll see results very quickly, but I don't, 478 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:05,719 Speaker 3: I don't know. 479 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 6: Wow, Outside of the FBI, there's there's definitely other cases 480 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 6: happening across the world, even but certainly in the United 481 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 6: States and Canada is ones that we kind of know 482 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 6: the most about, and those are you know, within their 483 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 6: whatever jurisdiction they're in. But our our our community is 484 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 6: definitely getting a lesson in just how badly the justice 485 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 6: system handles sexual abuse cases. So, you know, there's there's 486 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 6: been a few cases where they they got off, they 487 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 6: didn't get any punishment, and it's not because those things 488 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 6: didn't happen. It's because it's really hard to prove that 489 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 6: something happened in a room with closed doors where there's 490 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 6: only two people that know what happened. 491 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so, that's so hard. 492 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and most of these cases are now outside of 493 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 3: the Statute of Limitations because the church blocked the process 494 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 3: for you know, people to report, because the church had 495 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 3: this influence to cover things up and convince people not 496 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 3: to report, which is a form of cover up. They 497 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 3: prevented them from being able to do anything within their 498 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 3: statute of limitations. So now the vast majority of these 499 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 3: reports aren't actionable legally anyway. 500 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 2: Right, Damn. 501 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 4: I was just going to say, I think, isn't like 502 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 4: one of the most prolific sex offenders. Isn't his name 503 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 4: Robert And wasn't isn't he an Oregon and was a 504 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 4: worker or Seattle or something like that, Coryfield. 505 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, there is Robert Corfield. He was He was in Montana, 506 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 6: and he was one that was transferred from Canada to 507 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 6: Montana because of what he've been doing. 508 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 3: And we don't really know how prolific he was, necessarily 509 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 3: we have only heard of a couple, I think a 510 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: couple known survivors. But he's notorious. 511 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 4: He's notorious, Okay, I mean I just know that there 512 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 4: was one that was, like I read it in a 513 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 4: newspaper that they were like, he's one of the most 514 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 4: prolific in the state. 515 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, was. 516 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 3: It in Alaska. Oh, I'm from Washington too, so that's 517 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 3: oh shoot, what's his. 518 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 1: Name, Richard Schouber? 519 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 4: Thank you, That's what I'm thinking about, Richard Schroueber. And 520 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 4: he casually said a quote I think it was him, 521 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 4: perhaps it was Robert. 522 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: Yes, that was like. 523 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: Most of these children didn't even know I was doing it. 524 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy that he said that to the media. Yeah, 525 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: like what that is? It's insane. And the same with 526 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: Robert Corfield. 527 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 6: He also gave he talked to the BBC and was 528 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 6: basically like, yeah, I did this stuff. 529 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: They didn't. We can't do anything about it. Statute of 530 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: limitations adel. 531 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 3: But they feel they feel invincible because they've been treated 532 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 3: that way their whole lives. They don't live a normal 533 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 3: human life, and. 534 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 4: You can see that in the letters that they released, 535 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 4: where you were like, oh my god, you've never been 536 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 4: held accountable for a single thing. This religion has never 537 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 4: been made public obviously because you just send the craziest 538 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 4: shit I've ever read in my life, and now it's 539 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,239 Speaker 4: being all released and they're realizing it. 540 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 2: But these are people have never been held. I'm laughing 541 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 2: because I start breaking things. 542 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, there's another one that's worth mentioning. An extremely 543 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 3: prolific abuser that he has a court case actually coming 544 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 3: up in December, and he's had a trial before. He 545 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 3: was found guilty in early twenty twenty three, and he 546 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 3: was given a ten year deferred sentence, which means that 547 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 3: he doesn't spend a day in jail unless he reoffends 548 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 3: in the next ten years, and then he gets ten years. 549 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,959 Speaker 3: I think that was the deal. And turns out that 550 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 3: the police at actually ghosted a previous report that is 551 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 3: now in like going through the courts, and so he 552 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 3: has a trial coming up in December. This is Hodgy Holgerson, 553 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 3: and I think it's really important to get his name 554 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 3: out there because the access that he has had to 555 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 3: children is unfathomable. I mean, he's been involved with four 556 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 3: h clubs and he's been around the entire country and 557 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 3: so we're really one that's one that really gives us 558 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 3: gives us some pain. 559 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 6: Well, especially because we personally have at least twelve survivors 560 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 6: that have told their story to us, and if there's twelve. 561 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 6: How many more are there out there? 562 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, the way that he's done a lot of this, well, 563 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 3: some of it has been very very severe, very severe 564 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 3: abuse towards very young children, and a lot of it 565 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 3: is just like this Richard Chober type of thing where 566 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 3: you just get an opportunity here and there to do 567 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 3: something small that like people might even see and go, 568 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 3: he want to do that right in front of me. 569 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 3: So that can't be intentional, right, and so yeah, one 570 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 3: of those extremely prolific classic pedophiles. 571 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: Oh my god, we asked this, But it's been in 572 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: a while, so I'm curious, like, have more people started 573 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 2: leaving since this has come out? Or is everyone digging 574 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 2: their heels in what's where's that all landing? 575 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 6: I think it's it varies by region or in an area, 576 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 6: but yes, people are pouring out of the church right now. 577 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 6: So our group has about six thousand people right now, 578 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 6: and we've been tracking people who have left our Facebook group. Yes, 579 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 6: we're tracking people on the admin side who have left 580 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 6: the church since March of twenty twenty three, and we're 581 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 6: at about thirteen hundred, so we're almost like a fifth 582 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 6: of our group is comprised of people who have left 583 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 6: just in the last two years. 584 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: Wow. 585 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 6: And our Facebook group is just one of many platforms 586 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 6: out there for x two x two members right now. 587 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 6: So you know, I think a very conservative estimate is 588 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 6: that ten thousand have left, and it's most likely more 589 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 6: than that. 590 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, because each of those people in our group 591 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 3: that has left has a family typically right right, there 592 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 3: are some places in which they've had to consolidate meetings 593 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 3: and consolidate fields. There's been a huge loss of workers 594 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 3: due to both allegations and workers leaving on principle. So yeah, 595 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 3: there are big downsizing pains going on in the church 596 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 3: right now, and they like to pretend that it's not painful, 597 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 3: but when you listen to their sermons right now at conventions, 598 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 3: you can tell it's it's living rent free in their 599 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 3: heads at all times. 600 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: Right now, what do you guys think the future of 601 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: the churches? Do you think it'll be able to survive this, 602 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 2: because it's not like they be recruiting really. 603 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I think they'll survive for at least 604 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 6: a few more generations just because you know, but it's 605 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 6: going to it's going to dwindle very very quickly. 606 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. How you know. 607 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 6: I've talked to my brother about this, and this is, 608 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 6: you know, one of the reasons that he that he 609 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 6: left the ministry is how do you evangelize and try 610 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 6: to bring people into a church when they can find 611 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 6: out all this information about it on the internet. You 612 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 6: would have to swindle them into joining the church at 613 00:32:58,880 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 6: this point, and. 614 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 3: On a moral basis, when you're not sure that they're 615 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 3: going to be safe there. Right I think that the 616 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 3: future of the church might also, like there are a 617 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 3: lot of factors that could influence just how quickly it dwindles. 618 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 3: So right now, the average agent the church is pretty 619 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 3: darn high. There's a lot of old people, and there's 620 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 3: not so many young people. And I think that also 621 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 3: as a society, our young people are moving away from 622 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 3: fundamentalist religions, and so we know that a lot of 623 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 3: the young people that are in the two y two's 624 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 3: right now will eventually not be there. And so there, 625 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 3: I think it's going to dwindle very quickly for a while. 626 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 3: But I also think that things like a more severe 627 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 3: than expected response by the FBI, a more sweeping response 628 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 3: than we expect, could definitely influence people feeling even legally 629 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 3: safe in that environment, Like we have heard of FBI 630 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 3: agents saying that, like, I would not be anywhere near 631 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 3: this group right now if I were you. But people 632 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 3: have always felt safe and invincible from the world, you know. There, 633 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 3: so there are a lot of people that are staying 634 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 3: and doubling down. 635 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 6: Something that is kind of worth mentioning is In April 636 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 6: twenty twenty five, we were able to release notes taking 637 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 6: from an overseer meeting that. 638 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: God my gosh, oh my gosh. 639 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 6: Yes, So that was a really interesting look into what's 640 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 6: going through their minds. And you know this this was 641 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 6: a zoom call amongst overseers across the world, and it 642 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 6: was really a good old boys club when they were 643 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 6: just talking amongst themselves. But it's interesting because they did 644 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 6: talk a lot in this meeting about what outsiders were 645 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 6: saying about them, and so it's definitely top of mind, 646 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 6: you know. Of course, they talked about it in a 647 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 6: way of like, well, this is what they say about us, 648 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 6: that's not true, even though it literally was true, you know, 649 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 6: And so there was just all kinds of things, you know, 650 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 6: they talked about the people that are leaving. They mentioned 651 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 6: that they were like the garbage that needed to be 652 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 6: taken out anyway, and things like that. 653 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, they laughed about things like people saying that instead 654 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 3: of jetting all these workers all over the world, maybe 655 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 3: they should spend that money right now in Survivors. They 656 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 3: all chuckled about that. 657 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, what a funny joke. 658 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, hilarious. 659 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 6: And at the beginning of this meeting, they literally were 660 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 6: talking about how to get a perpetrator back in the meeting. 661 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: Wow. 662 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 4: And this meeting was kind of can can you tell 663 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 4: a little bit about how we have this transcript? I mean, 664 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 4: I know we don't know who did it, but how 665 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 4: did that bach happen? 666 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 3: Yeah? So someone was able to call in to the 667 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 3: meeting and they were unsure of the phone number, and 668 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 3: everybody checked their address book and it wasn't there. So 669 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 3: this person eventually was able to get in by claiming 670 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 3: to be John. And there are some John's high up 671 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 3: in leadership, and that's apparently all they needed to let 672 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 3: this person in to their good old boys club was It's. 673 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 4: John, a zoom name that said John. Yeah, so this 674 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 4: person just recorded it. Wow, and a little inside look 675 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 4: at what these people are talking about, and it is dire. 676 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 3: And there was a lawsuit or legal action threatened vaguely 677 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 3: in the direction. They didn't even send it to us. 678 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 3: They sent it to Wings, which is a website that 679 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 3: posted it from us, even though our name was on 680 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 3: the notes. They don't even know who belongs to who, 681 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 3: but they threatened wings or they implied that there could 682 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 3: be legal action, but they don't know who the person 683 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 3: is who got the notes, And instead of removing it 684 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 3: like they had requested, Wings instead kept the notes up 685 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 3: there and put the threat letter up there. So they 686 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 3: really took the full send option, and I loved that. 687 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 2: Is there anything I mean, I want to know if 688 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 2: there's anything else current that members AX members should be 689 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 2: aware of, and then just any advice that you have 690 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 2: with people who are contemplating leaving or are on the 691 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 2: fence a little bit. 692 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 3: Oh man, it's hard right now because a lot of 693 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 3: people that are staying have kind of they've kind of 694 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 3: justified where they sit, and I mean, leaving at this 695 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,479 Speaker 3: point is also kind of hard to because you didn't 696 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 3: leave when all the terrible stuff came out. So I 697 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 3: think they're kind of hitting a line there where there's 698 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 3: what is that word, they've got some sunk cost, you know. Yeah, 699 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 3: So that's hard. I mean we've even been contacted by 700 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,839 Speaker 3: by like teenagers who are like, I don't want to 701 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 3: be in this, but I'm forced to go. And you 702 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 3: have to be really delicate. I'm the one that talks 703 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 3: to them if needed, you know, just to just to 704 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 3: be extra careful. But really it's just hang in there. 705 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 3: You know. We can't encourage them to We can't really 706 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 3: give them a lot of advice except just moral support. 707 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 3: And that's hard. 708 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. The kids. 709 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 6: The kids are definitely a hard, hard one to to navigate, 710 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 6: and they don't really have a choice, Like, you know, 711 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 6: what choice do you have when if you leave you 712 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 6: might be kicked out of the house by your parents. 713 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 6: It's there's definitely precedent for that. For the adults that 714 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 6: are thinking about leaving, it's a it's a really hard 715 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 6: thing because you you potentially lose your family, You undoubtedly 716 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 6: lose some segment of your friends. I think the only 717 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,959 Speaker 6: kind of encouragement that I would give to two people 718 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 6: who are in that position who are thinking about leaving, 719 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 6: is there's a massive community out here for you now. 720 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 6: And so whether it's our group or or there's a 721 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 6: ton of other groups out there now that are that 722 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 6: are all set up for, you know, supporting people as 723 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 6: they as they leave this church, and so yeah, there's 724 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,919 Speaker 6: definitely people here that are have gone through it all 725 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 6: and can can support you. 726 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would just encourage them to talk to somebody, 727 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 3: talk to somebody who who left and listened. Sincerely, it's 728 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 3: not as scary as they make it out to be. 729 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 3: In fact, people leave and they go, oh, this is 730 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 3: nothing like they said it was, right. I was far 731 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 3: less safe in that than I feel now. I And 732 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 3: for people who leave and continue to and change their 733 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 3: religious beliefs but continue to stay in some form of Christianity, 734 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 3: they all say I left and it got better, like 735 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 3: my faith was so much more real afterward. And that 736 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 3: makes sense because you're no longer building your faith in 737 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 3: the church. You're all of a sudden starting to build 738 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 3: your faith in your actual religion. Right. Yeah. I mean, 739 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 3: it's just not as scary as they make it out 740 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 3: to be. But you can't believe that until you step 741 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 3: into it. 742 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 4: I cannot thank y'all enough for not only coming on 743 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 4: the show, but for creating the space. 744 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to cry. I don't know where I would 745 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 2: be without the group, So I'm just so grateful. 746 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 1: Thanks Megan, thanks. 747 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 2: And thank you guys for coming on. What's the name 748 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 2: of the Facebook group? 749 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 6: So the Facebook group is called the X two y 750 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 6: two Support Group. It's currently open just to ex members 751 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 6: or people who are in the process of leaving, but 752 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 6: we don't just generally allow the general public to jump in. 753 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,720 Speaker 6: We have a public Facebook page that we have used 754 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 6: for sharing all the updates and perpetrator allegations and things 755 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 6: like that. 756 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: That's two y two Church updates on Facebook. 757 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 2: Cool. Thank you both, and thanks for all the work 758 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,720 Speaker 2: that you've been doing. Have we missed anything or are we. 759 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 3: Mike, did you mention the TikTok? 760 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, so we're on TikTok making x two by two content. 761 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,280 Speaker 6: It's at our two x two story. 762 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 3: And we haven't done done a lot recently. We kind 763 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 3: of took a break over the summer, but there's a 764 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 3: lot of content before that and we will eventually get 765 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 3: some more. 766 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 4: But up, well, thank you all so much, and I'll 767 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 4: be talking to you on the internet soon. 768 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 769 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you very much for having us. 770 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Mike and Abby for coming on. Indeed, 771 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 2: it's good and also a little depressing to get an 772 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 2: update on where things are at with that case, because 773 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 2: obviously we want justice to move a little bit faster. 774 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,959 Speaker 2: Is there anything you would like to add? Yeah, come 775 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 2: join us on the X two by two Facebook group 776 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 2: if you are a former two by two or Wings 777 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 2: for Truth if you're just interested in learning more information, 778 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 2: if you need some support, those are some places to 779 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 2: come find it. And Mike and Abby you started at 780 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 2: TikTok that I'm just started following, and I am curious 781 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 2: to see how things keep unfolding. Indeed, thank you so 782 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 2: much for listening to another episode of Trust Me. We 783 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 2: have some big news. There is now merch available, brand 784 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 2: new merch. That's right, It's exactly right. You can visit 785 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 2: www dot exactly rightstore dot com in order by December fourteenth, 786 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 2: Oh my god, Christmas delivery. Imagine seeing somebody and one 787 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 2: of our merch shirts. I'm imagining it and I'm loving it. 788 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 2: I would die or hat or hat or hat also dead. 789 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 2: Dosas as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out 790 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 2: for rad flax, and never ever trust me. Bye, goodbye. 791 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 2: This has been an exactly Right production hosted by me 792 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 2: Lola Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth our Senior producer is 793 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 2: ge Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 794 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 4: Our associate produce is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker 795 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner. 796 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church. Trust 797 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 2: Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and 798 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 2: Danielle Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at trust 799 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 2: Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast. 800 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation, 801 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,240 Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com. 802 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 2: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 803 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts