1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: we're back with part four of our series on throwing behavior. Now, 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: in previous parts we focused mainly on non human animals. 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: We've looked at alleged throwing behaviors and octopuses in uh in, 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: elephants in the mongoose. We definitely had a digression about 8 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: dogs with air Bud in the previous episode. But also 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: in the previous episode, we ended up talking about the 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: evolution of the human capacity for throwing, which we are 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: particularly apt at. Humans are are very good at throwing, 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: especially compared to our nearest primate relatives. So like a 13 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: chimpanzee maybe on average three or four times stronger than 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: a human. But a human, even without specialized training, can 15 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: generally throw a lot more forcefully and a lot better 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: than a chimpanzee can. So why are we so specialized 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: for throwing? Well, we took a look at some some 18 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: evolutionary hypotheses about where our capacity for throwing comes from. 19 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: But there was another thing that I came across while 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: researching this subject that I did not get into in 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: the previous episode, and I wanted to come back to 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: it here because I found it really interesting. And this 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: is the idea of what if the evolution of throwing 24 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: was somehow a necessary precursor for the evolution of probably 25 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: the most distinctly human trait language. Mm hmmm, So not 26 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: just that humans are good at throwing and good at language, 27 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: but that there is actually a a neurobiological link between 28 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: the two one comes from the other. Uh So, to 29 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: look at this question, I wanted to refer to a 30 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: paper by William D. Hopkins, Jamie L. Russell, and Jennifer A. 31 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: Schafer published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society b 32 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: Biological Sciences published in twenty called the Neural and Cognitive 33 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: Correlates of Aimed Throwing in Chimpanzees, a magnetic residence, image 34 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: and behavioral study on a unique form of social tool use. 35 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: So um, to begin, they cover some of the same 36 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: ground we did in the previous episode. Uh. You know 37 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: how unusual human throwing behavior is in a way, and 38 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: despite all the interesting examples we've discussed in these episodes 39 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: of animals throwing things for various reasons, whether trained by 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: humans or just doing it as part of their natural 41 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: instinctual behaviors. UM. The authors here argued that in general, 42 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: throwing remains unsystematic in their words and other animals, and 43 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: I think this is fair. No other animal practices the 44 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: kind of generalized, skillful habitual throwing that we do, certainly 45 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: not without training by humans. Yeah, as we're discussing, the 46 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: previous episode goes way back in human behavior, and it's 47 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: something that even today, with all our other tools and 48 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: ways of doing things at a distance, we still engage 49 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: in throwing. We we I think in the very first episode, 50 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: we discussed that sort of um, at least in my case, uh, 51 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: the strange pull to need to throw a ball with 52 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: my son when he was younger, uh, even though we 53 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: were not a baseball or softball family. But it was 54 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: just kind of this thing that I guess was like 55 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: nostalgic and the culture, but also very satisfying to do 56 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: and something that even if you're not very practiced at 57 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: you can do with some or at least I found 58 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: that I could do with some degree of precision. Um, 59 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: despite being very rusty at the whole softball baseball thing. 60 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: I totally sympathize with you there. I mean, I think 61 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: neither of us are really sports guys. I don't really 62 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: want rules, I don't really want teams, but I do 63 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: want ball m or frisbee. Frisbee just as good in 64 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: my opinion. Yeah, and I mean there's also there's there's 65 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: a lot more throwing that goes on into like how 66 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: often do we find ourselves across the room from someone, 67 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: We request something and they give it a toss, they 68 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: throw it to us, and you want to be able 69 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: to catch it for various reasons. And then that's without 70 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: even getting into the various sports that even if we 71 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: don't engage in, we may watch, and the throwing of 72 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: balls is often an essential part, or at least one 73 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: aspect of a given sport. Right. But of course, apart 74 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: from these recreational concerns, you know, throwing has been crucial 75 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: to the survival of our ancestors. That seems pretty clear. 76 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: And in the last episode we talked about arguments from 77 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: evolutionary anthropology that throwing was positively selected for in human ancestors, 78 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: and the bodies of hominin species like Homo erectus show 79 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: anatomical changes that seem to favor forceful overhand throwing. Um, 80 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: I remember those changes. They're like changes in the shoulder 81 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: and the waist and the upper arm, all of which 82 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: combined to allow for a more substantial wind up, sort 83 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: of a pulling back of tension of of the biomechanical 84 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: bowstring to be released rapidly during the throw. And we 85 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: also talked about the argument that these changes appear to 86 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: coincide with evidence of meat becoming a bigger part of 87 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: the diet of these hominins, showing that throwing was likely 88 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: useful for obtaining food, either through power scavenging like driving 89 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: predators away from a kill in order to take the 90 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: meat for yourself, or direct hunting uh and either way 91 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: increasing the availability of food energy. Now, one very interesting 92 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: thing about the adaptation for throwing is that it implies 93 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: not only changes in the muscles and the skeletal system. 94 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: Of course, you know, you can see all those changes 95 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: around the scapula and the shoulder blade, changes in the waste, 96 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: the arm, and so forth, but it also implies changes 97 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: in cognition. An animal that can throw objects sourced from 98 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: the environment is showing a specialized way of thinking, and 99 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: not just a specialized way of moving. Now what do 100 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: I mean by this? Well, as one example, the author's 101 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: reference a specific captive chimpanzee who came up in the 102 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: last episode, Robi, remember the story of Santino, the chimpanzee 103 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: who was in a zoo and I believe Sweden was it? 104 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: I believe so, Yes, Santino, Yeah, poor Santino. The author's 105 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: right that Santino, who I guess was alive at the 106 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: time this paper was written. Quote, hides rocks out of 107 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: sight of the care staff, waiting to reveal and throw 108 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: them at approaching visitors at the most opportune time. Evidence 109 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: of planning comes from the observation that Santino searches for 110 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: the rocks from a moat inside the enclosure prior to 111 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: the arrival of the care staff and the visitors, and 112 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: cashes the rocks out of sight, only to pull them 113 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: out when the visitors arrive. That is a crafty chimp, 114 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: and that is that is forethought. Hmm. Adding to this, 115 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: the author's uh throwing their own observations of similar pre 116 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: planning behavior in chimpanzees and two other research which environments, 117 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: and they argue that the throwing quote, though often agonistic 118 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: and function and consequence agonistic meaning a sort of confrontational 119 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: aggressive behavior is not part of the apes display behavior. Indeed, 120 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 1: most instances of aimed throwing that we have observed occur 121 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: without any accompanying display behaviors such as pilo erection, hooting, 122 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: and charging, further suggesting an element of planning on the 123 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: part of the individual ape. Uh. So, I think that's 124 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: interesting too, if you understand what they're saying there, that 125 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: there is a sort of standard display behavior algorithm, like 126 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: when an ape is doing an agonistic display when trying 127 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: to be dominant and aggressive and maybe scare you off. 128 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: It includes all of these sub features like the pilo 129 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: erection meaning the bristling of body hair, hair stands on end, hooting, 130 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: charging back and forth, all that stuff. And they say 131 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: that when the apes throw stuff at people, they do 132 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: it without all of these other features of a typical 133 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: instinctual display. Another way that throwing is different from most 134 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: other forms of tool use and apes. Uh. The most 135 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: commonly observed types of tool use by wild chimpanzees are 136 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: all things where the tool is used to extract otherwise 137 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: unreachable food, often like from a whole or enclosure of 138 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: some kind and then is eaten immediately. So examples here 139 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: would be cracking of nuts with with stones like nutcracking 140 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: is an example of ape tool use, but also termite 141 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: fishing with sticks, ant dipping, and so forth. All of 142 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: these give rise to an immediate food reward for executing 143 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: the behavior, meaning that these behaviors are subject to regular 144 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: operant conditioning rules. Uh. You know, if if a behavior 145 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: leads to an immediate food reward, an animal can learn 146 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: to repeat basically any arbitrary set of actions. So you know, 147 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: chimpanzee gets delicious termites every time it h of course, 148 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: if it if it dips for them, that's one thing. 149 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: But maybe if it stands on one foot and gets 150 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: term it's every time. It may learn to stand on 151 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: one foot to get the meat. Yeah, and we see 152 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: this reflected in so many experiments involving animals over the years. 153 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,119 Speaker 1: You know, can can you get an animal to manipulate 154 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: some sort of technological gadget in order to get a 155 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: food reward? Yeah, pressing a button or something that would 156 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: have no relevance in the natural environment. So other tool 157 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: use behaviors could easily be learned and reinforced through through 158 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: this kind of conditioning. But throwing, as practiced by apes 159 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: does not lead to an immediate food reward. In fact, 160 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: it rarely, if ever, leads to a food reward at all. 161 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: The author's write quote what appears to be the main 162 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: reward for throwing is the simple ability to control or 163 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: manipulate the behavior of the targeted individual ape or human, which, 164 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: though you could consider it a goal, I mean that 165 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: is much more complicated and ambiguous than a direct food reward. Yeah, 166 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: because it's not the ape. And the scenario is throwing 167 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: the rock, hitting the human, and then by hitting the 168 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: human they drop an apple, right yeah. Now, from here, 169 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: the authors go on to discuss the the underappreciated complexity 170 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: of throwing. We also talked about this at length in 171 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: the previous episode. But you know, suffice to say, forceful, precise, 172 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: overhand throwing is an extremely demanding task, not only for 173 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: the muscles but for the brain, uh, requiring split second 174 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: coordination of perceptual judgments, all kinds of things. You know, 175 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: how far away is the target, isn't moving in what direction? 176 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: And how fast? What are the physical properties of the 177 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: projectile and so forth. But then the other thing is 178 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: the sequential motor control. To throw an object, you have 179 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: to precisely time a rapid sequence of muscular movements, and 180 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: other authors have previously suggested that quote the increased selection 181 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: for neural synchrony of rapid muscular sequence routines associated with 182 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: actions such as throwing are similar to the motor programming 183 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: demands of language and speech, and therefore engage similar neural systems, 184 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: notably broke as area. In other words, there are similarities 185 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: between what the brain is doing and what parts of 186 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: the brain are being used to coordinate a throw and 187 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: to process language and perform speech. And one idea that 188 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: gets wrapped up in this is the role of brain lateralization, 189 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: segmenting of brain processes to one hemisphere or side of 190 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: the brain or the other. So in cultures where throwing 191 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: behavior has been studied, the authors say the majority of 192 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: people pretty much always prefer to throw with the right hand. 193 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: Studies in chimpanzees also show a bias toward right handedness 194 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: for throwing, and these right hand preferences suggest left hemisphere 195 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: dominance in the brain and these majorities of both populations 196 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: because when it comes to controlling the body's movements, of course, 197 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: you know the hemispheres are flipped. Generally, the left hemisphere 198 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: links to the right hand and the right hemisphere to 199 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: the left, and so forth. Some researchers have pointed this 200 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: out in the context of the fact that the left 201 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: hemisphere also contains the brain regions, notably Broca's area, that 202 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: dominate the production of speech. Broca's area is also known 203 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: as the motor speech area, and one researcher who has 204 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: focused on this is the American neurophysiologist William H. Calvin, 205 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: who was actually, I think maybe still is a professor 206 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: at the University of Washington at Seattle, who, observing that 207 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: pent of people prefer to throw with the right arm, 208 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: Calvin hypothesized that the left hemisphere's capacity for language may 209 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: have actually evolved from a pre existing adaptation for right 210 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: handed throwing. He apparently published a book that contained this 211 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: hypothesis in nine three. It was called The Throwing Madonna. 212 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: Oh didn't they adapted this into the film? Um a 213 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: lead of their own? Right? Was Madonna in that believe? So? Okay? 214 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: Was she the picture in the movie? Oh? I don't remember, 215 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: but I mean surely she threw a ball at least once. 216 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of of of throwing in baseball, Yeah, 217 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: you throw no matter what position you are. I guess 218 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: the picture throws the most. There's no crying in baseball, 219 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: but there was throwing in baseball. There's a lot that much. 220 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: I remember for the film. Okay, so Madonna was definitely 221 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: throwing no matter what position she played. Um no, but 222 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: unfortunately did not become the basis of the movie as 223 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: far as I know. Instead, it was a place where 224 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: Calvin laid out an interesting, uh sort of story, a 225 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: possible series of developments that could have led to the 226 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: development of language via the stepping stone of of capacity 227 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: for throwing. So the story goes like this, lateralization evolved 228 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: for one handed throwing with the right hand, specifically so 229 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: that parents, typically mothers, could cradle an infant on their 230 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: left side and then they'd be free to throw with 231 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: the right hand if they needed to. So, I mean, 232 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: obviously things like this are hard to prove for sure, 233 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: but that is an interesting idea because I started thinking 234 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: about how I recently became a father, and without thinking 235 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: about it at all, I pretty much always when I 236 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: hold my baby, hold her on on the left side 237 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: of my torso and so if she like falls asleep 238 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: against me, and her head is going to be on 239 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: the left side of my chest, and that from my 240 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: point of view, which is also the side where the 241 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: heartbeat is closer. I never planned it that way, that 242 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: that just sort of happened. And I was talking to 243 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: my wife and she said, yeah, most often she she's 244 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: on the left side there too, So I don't know 245 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: that that's kind of interesting. I mean, it could be 246 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: totally unrelated, but I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 247 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: I could always scoop up on the left side as well. 248 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: My son is now I think finally too big for 249 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: me to do that without seriously injuring myself. But yes, 250 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: and I guess at a certain point you become less 251 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: desiring of the heartbeat sound that like maybe loses some 252 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: of the power it has over over really young infants. Yeah, 253 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess it varies from from child 254 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: to child, depends on how big they get and at 255 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: what point they want that distance. Thank, Okay, well, so 256 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: it's it's hard to know for sure if the need 257 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: to scoop a child and hold them on the left 258 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: side of the body close to the heartbeat is the 259 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: real reason driving brain lateralization. Um, I find it more 260 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: compelling than some other hypotheses that seemed to be on 261 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: offer at the time. One that's sited. I was reading 262 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: a review of this book by Calvin that cited a 263 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: previous hypothesis that the right handedness of because um men 264 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: in battle, I guess prehistoric battle needed to like hold 265 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: a shield above their above their heart on the left side. 266 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: I was like, I get out of here. This this 267 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: discussion reminds me of a painting, might painting that I 268 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: hadn't thought of in a bit, I believe. What is 269 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: the title of this piece is Two Mothers by Leon 270 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: Maxim of Fivery Um. That's if I'm pronouncing that correctly. 271 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: It's f A I V R E. But it's a 272 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: pretty stunning piece in which we see this vision of 273 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: of a prehistoric mother with with very modern touches to it. 274 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: But she's standing here in some sort of uh, you know, 275 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: hide garment, and she has this heavy looking infant in 276 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: her left arm, and then there's another child sort of 277 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: hanging on to her left arm. In her right hand, 278 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: she has uh sex, some sort of a a stone weapon, 279 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: like a wooden wooden half with a with a stone blade, 280 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: some sort of like you know, primitive axe or club. 281 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: And she's staring back into the shadows behind her where 282 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: this is kind of like cave environment, and there's clearly 283 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: an animal lurking there, an animal emerging from the shadows. 284 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: And I think this is supposed to be the other mother, 285 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: the mother that is hunting her. And I have no 286 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: idea of this this uh, this piece has has any 287 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: connection to what we're talking about here. But it is 288 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: interesting that we do see left arm cradling children, right 289 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: arm brandishing a weapon to protect those children against some threat. 290 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: It is a kind of beautiful painting. Yeah, her hair 291 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: is perfect too, like she's really this mom's really got 292 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: it together, perfect hair, protecting the children, ready to brain 293 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: a panther with some sort of a stone weapon. Anyway, 294 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: whatever the cause of the right hand lateralization for sequential 295 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: motor control in in the throwing, uh, the the hypothesis 296 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,959 Speaker 1: goes on from here to suggest that sequential motor control 297 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: regions that made us so good at at tossing a 298 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: stone with one hand were eventually commondered by selection pressure 299 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: for communication and shifted to a different kind of sequential 300 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: motor control, which was language production. Now, when we think 301 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: of language production, we think of speech, and that that 302 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: could be the case. I think Calvin argued for a 303 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 1: transitional stage where the original language was more gesture based, 304 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: like gesturing with the hands maybe, which would have then 305 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: transitioned into speech production with the mouth. Again, like many 306 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: things here, that's not something we know for sure, so 307 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: we're in very speculative territory. But I do find this 308 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: really interesting. So again, if there's anything to this story, 309 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: it would go that for some reason, there is an 310 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: original right hand left brain motor lateralization for the majority 311 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: of the population for throwing objects. Human ancestors get really 312 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: good at throwing with that one hand, maybe cradling a 313 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: baby in the other and or doing something else. And 314 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: then you could argue that the lateralization for precise sequential 315 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: motor activity in the left brain uh to power throwing, 316 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: eventually provides the neurological scaffolding for the left brain's capacity 317 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: for language and speech. Now, what was the actual experiment 318 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: in this study, Well, it was looking at our closest 319 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: primate relatives to see if they could provide any insight 320 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: on what might have been going on in the brains 321 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: of very distant human ancestors, so they were looking at chimpanzees. Now, again, 322 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: chimpanzees don't throw nearly as well or as often as 323 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: we do, but some throw sometimes, So what if anything 324 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: is different in the brains of chimpanzees that reliably throw 325 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: versus those that don't. Specifically, the authors looked at the 326 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: ratio of two different types of brain tissue, white matter 327 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: and gray matter in the areas of chimpanzee brains that 328 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: would be most similar to the area of the human 329 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: brain involved in motor control for throwing and for speech, 330 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: and this would be quote the homologue to Broca's area. 331 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: Remember again broke as areas involved in speech production and humans. 332 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: And then they also say as well as the motor 333 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: hand area of the precentral gyrus termed the knob K 334 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: and O B. And what they found was that in 335 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: both of these areas, in the chimpanzee equivalent of Broca's 336 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: area and in the knob, the ratio of white matter 337 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: to gray matter was higher in chimpanzees that throw versus 338 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: those that don't. Also quote, we further found that asymmetries 339 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: in white matter within both brain regions were larger in 340 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: the hemisphere contralateral to the chimpanzees preferred throwing hand. So 341 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: what they're saying is it's it's not just that the 342 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: ratio of white matter was higher in these regions on 343 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: both sides of the brain. It's that whichever hand the 344 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: chimpanzee like to throw with those particular regions had a 345 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: higher proportion of white matter on the opposite side of 346 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: the brain. Also, they assessed the chimpanzees in this study 347 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 1: with what is called a Primate Cognition Test BATTERY or 348 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: pct B, which is, uh, you know, a sort of 349 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: an s a t for for for chimpanzees, standard tests 350 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: on all kinds of mental abilities, you know, uh, tons 351 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: of things, spatial memory, causality, inference, tool property recognition, gaze following, 352 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: and so forth. And they were looking at, well, are 353 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: there any differences between apes that throw and apes that 354 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: don't throw? And out of this entire test battery generally not. Generally, 355 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: there were no cognitive differences except in one area. There 356 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: was only one aptitude where there was a significant difference, 357 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: and it was that researchers found chimpanzees that were more 358 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: inclined to throw were also better at social communication. So 359 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: the author's right quote these results suggest that chimpanzees that 360 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: have learned throw have developed greater cortical connectivity that's correlating 361 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: with the white matter between the primary motor cortex and 362 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: the Broca's area. Homologue, it is suggested that during hominin evolution, 363 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: after the split between lines leading to chimpanzees and humans, 364 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: there was intense selection on increased motor skills associated with throwing, 365 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: and that this potentially formed the foundation for left hemisphere 366 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: specialization associated with language and speech found in modern humans. 367 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: So this is another case where I think this is 368 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: far from proven. We would need much more robust evidence 369 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 1: before you could endorse this specific evolutionary story as as likely. 370 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: But I find this very intriguing and it does seem 371 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: possible to me that the capacity for throwing gave rise 372 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: to the capacity for language. M So eight throws the bone, 373 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: the bone spins around, the bone becomes a space station, 374 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: just as Kubrick promised this. Yeah, I didn't think about that. Yeah, 375 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: I want to get back into this idea of early humans, 376 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: especially throwing stones as weapons and throwing other things as weapons. Uh. 377 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: You know, as we discussed in the last episode, we 378 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: we talked about some of the ideas concerning the development 379 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: of ranged weapon technology and prehistoric humans. This idea that 380 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: what first begins as a way of engaging and agonistic 381 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: communication could transform into just a way of physically sending 382 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: a message to another species via projectile. But then eventually 383 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: that begins to get in this way to manipulate their 384 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: behavior at range, especially in the case of power scavenging, 385 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: and ultimately it can be used as a way to 386 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: hunt prey animals. And as we were actually recording that episode, 387 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: my mind kept turning to these images of some sort 388 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: of prehistoric warfare scenario in which some you know, entirely 389 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: to kubra cky prehistoric people were employing various weapons and 390 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: and kind of probably also probably a slightly to table 391 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: top war game manner or where you have you know, 392 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: units of bone wielding beaters moving forward to engage in 393 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: some melee attacks, and then maybe you have some units 394 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: of rock throwers behind them. Um, and you know this 395 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: this felt kind of silly in my head, maybe even 396 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: a little Gary Larson uh esque in my head, a 397 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: little far side, But then I started looking into it 398 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: more because of course, you know, rock throwers were an 399 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: important part of of of of our history, and when 400 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: you start looking into the history of not only range weaponry, 401 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: but hand thrown range weaponry, it gets pretty fascinating. Well yeah, 402 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I think one of the main things that 403 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: striking is rediscovering how potent to force simple thrown objects are, 404 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,959 Speaker 1: even in an era where where powered projectile technology like 405 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: bows or crossbows or even guns exist. When you think 406 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: of somebody's throwing rocks, there at least can be this 407 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: sort of feeling that it's like a juvenile sort of thing, 408 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 1: that it's primitive, that it's a nuisance. But on the 409 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: other hand, I think most of us realized that it's 410 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: also quite dangerous. Nobody wants to be hit in the 411 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: head with a thrown rock. A well aimed thrown rock 412 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: can of course be deadly true, and on top of that, 413 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: a volley of thrown rocks from multiple assailants uh even 414 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: more dangerous. And of course we see this reflected in 415 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: the use of stoning as a form of execution from 416 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: ancient times through through modern times. But I didn't want 417 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: to dwell so much on that because that's more depressing 418 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: subject matter. But I wanted to focus more on hand 419 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: thrown stones and weapons in a hunting and warfare context. Okay, 420 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: so I think for many of us, and this was 421 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: me until just the other day, we tend to think 422 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: of ranged weapons as this steady ascent out of the 423 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: Stone Age. So sure, we threw stones at things then, 424 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: and we greatly increased our ability to strategically employ those 425 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: thrown stones. But then we got why, and then we 426 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: coach We probably got wiser about how we selected stones, granted, 427 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: but then eventually we're gonna level upright, You're gonna up 428 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: raid to using something like a sling, a spear or 429 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: a spear thrower, a bow and arrow across bow, etcetera, 430 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: all the way up through the modern era. And it's 431 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: I think it's easy to think of this as a 432 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: linear progression, or like a video game skill tree, a 433 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: situation where you could you're you're yelling at the screen, Hey, 434 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: don't equip the throwing rock, you fool. You have a spear, 435 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: Now equip the spear. Yes, yes, video game logic per 436 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: pervades our our thoughts in every way. Yeah, but of 437 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: course that this is not exactly how things pan out. 438 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: For a number of reasons, speaking broadly in terms of 439 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: just weaponry in general, materials are one factor, but and 440 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: we've discussed that on the show before, but another huge 441 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: factor to consider is that humans are such great natural throwers, 442 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: as we've been discussing, and it's such a big part 443 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: of the weapon history, that there just may not be 444 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: a good reason to completely abandon the hand thrown stone, right. 445 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you can imagine cases where people are having 446 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: great success with with just hand thrown stones, and and 447 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: why why fixed what's not broken? Yeah? And then if 448 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: something also becomes a part of culture, becomes a part 449 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: of a martial art um and a weapon tradition, uh, 450 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: and then there's this added incentive to keep it around. 451 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: So I started looking into some examples from Polynesian weaponry 452 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: and martial arts. The first thing I ran across was 453 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: an interesting mention in the Coming of the Maori Weapons, 454 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: a text by New Zealand anthropologist and doctor t Ranghi 455 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: Heroa who lived eighteen seventy seven through ninette. In discussing 456 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: the prevalence for spears and clubs in Polynesian history, he 457 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: also discusses the swing as a primary range weapon along 458 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: with the spear, and then he shares the following quote, 459 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: stones were also thrown by hand and early European voyagers 460 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: have reported this form of attack more than the use 461 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: of the swing. The bow and arrow, while president some groups, 462 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: was used for sport but not as a weapon of war. 463 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: In Samoa it was used to shoot pigeons, in Hawaii 464 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: to shoot rats, and in the Society Islands it was 465 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: a chiefly sport in which archers clad in special costume 466 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: shot for distance from raised stone platforms. Now, obviously this 467 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: is an older source here, but instantly reading this you realize, well, 468 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: this is true. It raises interesting possibilities about the dependability 469 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: of throne stones as weaponry even as other technologies come online. Right, 470 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: so you could have the technology of a bow but 471 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: still prefer hand thrown stones for some utilities. Yeah, and uh, 472 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: the advantages of the bow, of course are well documented. 473 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: You know. And none of this, none of this wo 474 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: we're getting into, is going to be a statement that 475 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: along the lines of well, actually a throne rock is 476 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: better than a high power bow or anything like that. 477 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,719 Speaker 1: But um, and and it's true that the use of 478 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: the bow was widespread not only in ancient armies but 479 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: among hunter gatherers. But as Thomas Skult points out in 480 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: a section on range, Weaponry and the book seventy Great 481 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: Inventions of the Ancient World. Not all hunter gatherers use 482 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: the bow and arrow. He mentions Australian Aborigines as an 483 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: example of a people who did not, despite some of 484 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: them surely being aware of the technology via contact with 485 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: the tourists Straight Islanders who used bows. That they were 486 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: still people that that retained the use of ranged weaponry. 487 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: That depended on on hand thrown objects, and will come 488 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: back to the most famous uh classification of hand thrown 489 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: objects that they used in a bit. But but where 490 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: I really got fascinated with all of this was it 491 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: was a paper from two thousand and eleven. This was 492 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: published in the Journal of the Polynesian Society by Barbara 493 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: Isaac and Guinaria Isaac titled Unexpected Trajectories, a History of 494 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: New Way and Throwing Stones. The authors here describe the 495 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: war stones of New Way. New Way is an island 496 00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: that's um fift miles or dred kilometers northeast of News 497 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: Zealand and When Captain James Cook visited the island in 498 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy four, he dubbed at the Savage Island, which 499 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: may have had something to do with their consumption of 500 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: the native banana species, which to understand had like a 501 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: red peal and an orange just interior and if in 502 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: the teeth or rubbed on the body might look like blood. 503 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: But this also clearly reflects Cook's general attitude towards indigenous 504 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: peoples as well. But he also certainly seemed to have 505 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: encountered some difficulty in landing on New Way. It's apparently 506 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: difficult to land on the island anyway due to the 507 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: surrounding coral reefs. But the people of New Way were 508 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: also hostile to his landing attempts and his naturalists. The 509 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: naturalists on on this particular voyage, Andrews Sparman was injured 510 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: by a thrown stone. I believe it got him in 511 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: the arm. Mm hmm. The New Way here they were 512 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: they were not just picking up random stones and throwing 513 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: them either. Uh, this is where it gets really fast thing. 514 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: They had a highly refined approach to the use of 515 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: hand thrown range stone weaponry. According to Isaac and Isaac, 516 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: the warriors were reported at the time to each have 517 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: spears on their person to have a swing, and also 518 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: have a pouch of stones for throwing. But throwing stones 519 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: and swing launch stones were not uncommon among other people 520 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: who are encountered on islands from this vast region. So comparatively, 521 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: there wasn't much Western commentary on these throwing stones. But 522 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: the throwing stones of of new A, according to Isaac 523 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: and Isaac, were quite singular, and much of it would 524 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: come out later through indigenous recollections, the work of later 525 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: anthropologists and missionaries, as well as later analysis of stones 526 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: that were subsequently taken off the island after Western contact. 527 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: Thank thank so. These wars stones, Uh, you know, the 528 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: crazy thing about them is that, again these are not 529 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: just stones that were picked up or even stones that 530 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: were sort of painstakingly collected, and the way that one 531 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,719 Speaker 1: might scour the rocks by a stream to find the 532 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: best rocks for skipping. Now, these were crafted items made 533 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: of I think predominantly limestone crafted items. So you might 534 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: think of this as more like an arrow or an 535 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: axe head or something, but it is a stone for 536 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: throwing with the hand right right. The people here would 537 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: harvest the stone, apparently from stalactites and stalagmites in naturally 538 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: occurring caves on the island and then wear them down 539 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: in the into the desired shape by working them over 540 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: with other pieces of stone or with pieces of coral. 541 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: So we're talking considerable manufacturing effort going into these. Again, 542 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: they're not just picked up off the ground. They're not 543 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: even um scavenge from the ground. They are manufactured from 544 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: materials that are harvested. They tended to weigh around three 545 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: to four pounds each and they were largely spherical in shape. Um. 546 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: They were often compared to small cannon balls by by 547 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: Western commentators, but the difference is that they were elongated 548 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: a little bit on the two opposing ends. You can 549 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: look up pictures of these online and they to me, 550 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: if I was to compare them to a naturally occurring object, 551 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: I would say they kind of look like like well 552 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: crafted stone lemons or lines. I was gonna say, lemon, yeah, yeah, 553 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: so yeah they have that. Or I guess you could 554 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: almost say they don't really look like a football, but 555 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: they have I guess a slightly football esque shape, or 556 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,719 Speaker 1: they remind me of certain like malformed or not malformed, 557 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,719 Speaker 1: but sort of slightly unrealistic toy football as you might 558 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,959 Speaker 1: have seen if you were a child, uh you know, 559 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: back in the eighties or something. Sorry, I was just 560 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: briefly amused by the concept of a toy football. Well, 561 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: well you have the functional football is for serious business, 562 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: for the sport of American football, and then you have 563 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: you have something that's that's less serious. This is a football, 564 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: this is not for playing with. So you did have 565 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: Western observers though, that we're figuring a lot of this out, 566 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: that these war stones were indeed crafted items, that they 567 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 1: were made out of limestone. Uh, that people would harvest 568 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: the stone from againstalactites and stalagmites, and uh, there's some 569 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: really interesting takes on this that are reported in this uh, 570 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: this paper. UH. In eight sixty eight, Missionary Thomas Powell 571 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: wrote that quote, this fact is remarkable as an indication 572 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: of thought and design natural to this people. For it 573 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: is not probable that the first inhabitants brought the ideas 574 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 1: with them. But they found this limestone in the caves, 575 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: saw the use to which it might be put, and 576 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,959 Speaker 1: designed the shape. It is therefore original on their part, 577 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: and in this particular they anticipated the European science of 578 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: the recent century. Now they don't note what he was 579 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 1: referring to here on the European science thing. I'm thinking 580 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: maybe airships I'm not sure they kind of have an 581 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: airship look to him, I guess. Now. On the limestone front, 582 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: nineteenth and twentieth century anthropologists described other war stones that 583 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: were sometimes used that might have been made of other materials, 584 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: one of of bassault, one of coral, for example. You 585 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: definitely have examples of like a black um a stone 586 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: of black war stone, but limestone seems to be the 587 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: primary material. They were highly prized and were used exclusively 588 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: for conflict um and there was apparently a lot of 589 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: conflict on the on the island. You know, this before 590 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: there were any Westerners even, and part of it had 591 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: to do with uh, you know, droughts would occur and 592 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: there was a lot of skirmishing for available resources. But 593 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: they didn't hunt with them apparently, so birds were hunted 594 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: with uh what are referred to as bird bows in 595 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: this paper, and fish were hunted with nets. So these 596 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: were exclusively for dealing with human threats or perceived human threats. 597 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: Warriors would carry them in bags or on belts, and 598 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: if they ran out of ammo, it's mentioned that they 599 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,879 Speaker 1: would naturally make use of stones from the ground as well, 600 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: so they weren't above, you know, reaching down and grabbing 601 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: whatever was available and throwing that. After your special stones 602 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: were extinguished, and then of course after a skirmish or battle, 603 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: you would hopefully be able to go back and pick 604 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,280 Speaker 1: up your your AMMO retrieve them. Because other sources mentioned 605 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: that they often they had names, they had histories, histories 606 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: of violence, and so these these particular stones would kind 607 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: of resonate with importance to the individual who wielded it. HM. 608 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: So it's interesting that if the stones are you know, 609 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: they're they're manufactured with care, and they're used specifically for 610 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: human conflict instead of hunting. I mean, it makes me 611 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: think about them them having I don't know, some kind 612 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: of special like communicative or signaling power in addition to 613 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: their ability to hit and hurt someone. Yeah, yeah, I 614 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: think so. Um. Here was another great quote. This one 615 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,479 Speaker 1: is reference in the paper as well from anthropologist Edwin Loeb, 616 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: who wrote the following about the the importance of the 617 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: stones the individuals quote. The fighting stones all had special names, 618 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: and they were put in a kafa or girdle, which 619 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: was a plated like a matt. The kafa was about 620 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: six to seven inches wide and was customarily four fathoms 621 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: in length. The third night before the war arrived. They 622 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: wound the kafa around their stomachs and slept in this 623 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: manner during the night, neither eating or drinking. So in 624 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: this paper, the the the authors here they they point 625 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: out that these Nuegan stones, these war stones, um. There 626 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: were songs about them um. And part of their importance 627 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: also may have had to do with the fact that 628 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: they were products of the caves which were sacred sides 629 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: with it seems like connections to the afterlife. And of 630 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: course this matches up with the way caves were viewed 631 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: by people's and other parts of the world as well. 632 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: The stones were used in ambush attacks and skirmishes, but 633 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 1: also sometimes in fights to the death uh would occur, 634 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: but it seems like a lot of these battles, based 635 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: on some of the commentaries UH, may not have been 636 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: typically that lethal. UH. So, Yeah, this does line up 637 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: with this idea of communication. It's not necessarily about going 638 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: out and absolutely murdering the competition, but driving them away 639 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,760 Speaker 1: from resources that you're looking to control. And in the paper, 640 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: the authors also mostly speculate on accuracy here and part 641 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: of this was based on accounts of other throwing techniques 642 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: by other advanced stone or club throwing groups. But they 643 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: speculate that high accuracy was likely within twenty yards or 644 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: eighteen meters roughly, but greater distance accuracy was certainly possible. 645 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: And I think this makes sense when you consider the 646 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: likely scenarios in which these stones are being used. Uh So, yeah, 647 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: any kind of sort of tabletop gaming scenario um that 648 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: you have in your mind should probably set aside. It 649 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: sounds like most of these these encounters, these battles would 650 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: have involved like one individual against one another individual or 651 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: one small group against another. It seems like skirmishes and 652 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: small ambushes were sort of the the typical uh, encounter 653 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: context for their usage. So anyways, it's a fascinating paper. 654 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: It's available on j store if anyone wants to read more. Uh. 655 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: They really get in depth about the history of it 656 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 1: and various uh uh mostly Western commentators who are looking 657 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: at it. And also how these how the use of 658 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: the stones was you know, disappeared and then the stone 659 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: owns went out throughout the world and then we're to 660 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: certain degrees brought back or studied. Now, this was certainly 661 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: the most to me anyway remarkable account of stone throwing. 662 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: I came across, but not the only account of specialized 663 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: throwing stones. I ran across the work of Guy Stible 664 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: talking about archaeology finds in Jerusalem and the accumulated weapons 665 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: and AMMO that they were finding. Uh, this was a 666 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: paper that came out on ten. This is from a 667 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: chapter title Military Equipment in a larger collection of papers 668 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: titled Jerusalem Excavations in the Tyropean Valley. And yeah, so 669 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot of discussion of things like 670 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: the things you would expect to find, sling stones and 671 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: so forth, other types of projectiles. But then there's an 672 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: interesting part where he mentions he starts talking about what 673 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:02,439 Speaker 1: may have been stones that were brestley collected and even 674 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: crafted for throwing. Quote three flint balls have a single 675 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: flat face, unlike weights or grinding stones that frequently exhibit 676 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: multiple flat surfaces. They were ideal for heaping on top 677 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: of battlements, as modern experiments have demonstrated. In a light 678 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: of parallels from both Palestine and the Roman West, it 679 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: appears that the use of hand thrown stones was much 680 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: more prevalent than has been previously appreciated in modern scholarship. Oh, 681 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: that's interesting. The single flat face, So that would be 682 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: a stone that was modified or selected to have a 683 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: single flat face in order to make it easier to 684 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,959 Speaker 1: stack in a pile, and so it wouldn't roll away. Yeah, yeah, 685 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: for use on battlements, which I guess also the other 686 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: side of that is, not only do you not want 687 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: your AMMO to roll away, you don't want it to 688 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: roll off the battlements with with you know, fatal gravity 689 00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: ascents potentially, um, if you're not meaning to drop it. Um. Yeah, 690 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: I've never I've never thought about this before. Um. I mean, 691 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 1: I've certainly researched siege scenarios before, where it's it's very 692 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,439 Speaker 1: obvious that if you have the advantage of battlements, there's 693 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: a great deal you can do without the need for 694 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,280 Speaker 1: the power of a bow. You can just drop things 695 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: on people underneath. And it was and dropping things on 696 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: your besiegers was it was a favorite tactic that you 697 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: could drop rocks, you could drop various burning things, oils, etcetera, 698 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: all manner of things. And again with with legal intensity, 699 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: but this idea of of not just having stones, but 700 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: stones that had been to some degree altered or manufactured 701 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: or crafted in order to just stack up there so 702 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: they're ready to go, but they're also not rolling out 703 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: of out of out of sight and posing a danger 704 00:42:49,000 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: to anyone who might just say, be working beneath. Now, 705 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,479 Speaker 1: there are also several interesting cases of probably many many 706 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: more on top of what I'm gonna highlight here, of 707 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: hand thrown clubs and throwing sticks. So you know, we've 708 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 1: been talking about throwing rocks, but of course throwing sticks. 709 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 1: It's just sort of the the other side of the 710 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: equation here. And you find examples of these traditions just 711 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: throughout the world on various continents um. The throwing stick 712 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: was used as a hunting tool by prehistoric peoples, and 713 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: we have examples of these going back at least some 714 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand years UM. One of the problems that 715 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: and this is something that's pointed out in a paper 716 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: I was looking at by Conrad at All in Nature, 717 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,760 Speaker 1: Ecology and evolution, is that a throwing stick is generally 718 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 1: a wooden stick, and therefore it's not always going to 719 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: survive to become an artifact that can be studied and interpreted, um, 720 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of thousands of a few years later, 721 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: but the practice of hunting with thrown sticks certainly survived. 722 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: The ancient Egyptians written aimed a practice of hunting with 723 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,239 Speaker 1: throwing sticks, and we see this commemorated both in their 724 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: hieroglyphics but also in um in art. Uh I included 725 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: an image for you to look at here, Joe, where 726 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: you see an individual um clearly out by the water side. 727 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: They are all these birds around and in one hand 728 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: the individual was holding up this, this throwing stick. And 729 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,720 Speaker 1: this is sort of a um an an indwaited club 730 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,359 Speaker 1: of sorts that can be thrown. Yeah, yeah, and I 731 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: mean we we also see the use of this in 732 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: other cultures as well. The hope He tribes people of 733 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,320 Speaker 1: North America also used a type of hunting sticks, sometimes 734 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: referred to as a rabbit stick name for the prey 735 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: you would go after with this, with this tool, with 736 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: this weapon. Throwing clubs throwing sticks were also used in 737 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 1: um in warfare scenarios and also in um In in 738 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: war related ceremonies and uh and symbolism. Fiji islanders us 739 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: beautiful and ceremonial throwing war clubs. Uh These were called 740 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 1: ula us and you can look up examples of these. 741 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,839 Speaker 1: Some key African traditions of throwing clubs are notable as well, 742 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,400 Speaker 1: including the East African rungou as well as the knob 743 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 1: carry of Southern and Eastern Africa. And these were used 744 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: for hunting and war, but also became highly symbolic social 745 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 1: signifiers as well. Yeah, but I feel like you, the 746 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: idea that the throne blunt weapon, the throwing club is 747 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: something that is often I guess glossed over and in 748 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: at least in the Western mindset. Uh. You know, just 749 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: again coming back as always two things like Dungeons and Dragons, 750 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: where we we wrap all these fantasy scenarios around, uh, 751 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,879 Speaker 1: the use of ranged and melee weaponry. Um, it's it's 752 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: easy to dismiss the idea that, yeah, that the club 753 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: also is a potential range weapon. Uh though of course 754 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: I think Dungeons and Dragons does at least have a 755 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 1: boomerang in it. Um. And the boomerang is probably the 756 00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: most famous and I guess the most exceptional of the 757 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: throne clubs, uh that that humans have developed over the ages. 758 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 1: The boomerang is is exceptional because it's it's still essentially 759 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 1: a throne club that kills our injurs via blunt force, 760 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,279 Speaker 1: but it is also crafted to spin in just the 761 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: right way and by virtue of its shape to generate 762 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 1: in an aerofoil, which then increases the distance that it 763 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 1: can be thrown. So it's not only you know, throne, 764 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 1: but it also begins to take on flight, uh in 765 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,359 Speaker 1: a in a fascinating manner. Yeah. I remember being fascinated 766 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,759 Speaker 1: by the boomerang as as far back as when I 767 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,760 Speaker 1: was a little kid. Yeah. And according to to Thomas Hewlett, 768 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: we run into the wooden artifact problem again with boomerangs. 769 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: But convincing boomerangs have been discovered as old as ten 770 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,279 Speaker 1: thousand years uh, so that they've they've been around for 771 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: quite a while. There are returning boomerangs and their non 772 00:46:54,560 --> 00:47:00,399 Speaker 1: returning boomerangs. Um. Non returning boomerangs were primarily weapons, while 773 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: returning boomerangs were I think more in the recreational and 774 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,799 Speaker 1: symbolic and mythological sphere of things um, but could also 775 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: be used apparently in hunting scenarios as some sort of 776 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: decoy uh for I think birds of prey, but also 777 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: as a means of frightening intended bird prey. So they 778 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: weren't without um functional uses. And there are a lot 779 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: of things similar to these boomerangs that we find in 780 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 1: other cultures as well, Like the Tamil people had a 781 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: kind of non returning boomerang of their own called of Alari, 782 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: and you can look at the various images of this 783 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,239 Speaker 1: as well. Has a slight boomerang shape, kind of a 784 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,919 Speaker 1: tusk like shape. Yeah. Now, going back to Thomas cool 785 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 1: It here, he points out that broadly speaking, the evolution 786 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,920 Speaker 1: of range weaponry was initially uh an evolution that had 787 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: a lot to do with range. Throwing weapons greatly increase 788 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,880 Speaker 1: the range at which human beings may inflict harm. But 789 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,560 Speaker 1: then additional throwing technologies extend that range, and this of 790 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,879 Speaker 1: course in creases what we can do with them from 791 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 1: a hunting standpoint, but also provides advantages over other human adversaries, 792 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,799 Speaker 1: at least under the right conditions. But I think these 793 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,399 Speaker 1: examples show that it's not just a matter of abandoning 794 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,760 Speaker 1: the use of hand thrown projectiles. We retain the physical 795 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,759 Speaker 1: abilities as well as the basic skill sets, and we 796 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: see this reflected in our sports as well as our 797 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: weapon cultures. Hand thrown weapon traditions clearly survived the advent 798 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 1: of other ranged weapon technologies and in many cases retained 799 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: important cultural values as well. And there's one final wrinkle 800 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,120 Speaker 1: here too that I almost completely blanked on. I almost 801 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 1: didn't have anything about this in the notes, but then 802 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 1: I of course remembered well. As we venture into the 803 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: age of explosives, hand thrown weaponry remains important in the 804 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: form of hand grenades. The more common variety of grenade 805 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,040 Speaker 1: is of course made to be thrown by hand, much 806 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,840 Speaker 1: like a throwing stone, more or less fits in the 807 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,719 Speaker 1: human palm, though we also have the example of the 808 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,399 Speaker 1: German stick hand grenade that was used in the First 809 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: and Second World Wars and I think adopted by some 810 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: other groups as well during this period. But as the 811 00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 1: name implies, this design features a long handle, and these 812 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,760 Speaker 1: were thrown end over end, much like a hunting stick 813 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,360 Speaker 1: or a throne club. Now, in both cases, obviously, given 814 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 1: that this is an item that will explode, you don't 815 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: necessarily have to be as precise. It's not a situation 816 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: where you have to hit somebody in the head with 817 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: it or in the neck with it every time for 818 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: the weapon to be successful, though I guess there would 819 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 1: be situations where you were trying to throw said grenade 820 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: into say a window or some sort of an opening 821 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: and a tank, etcetera. Well, or like in other cases 822 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: we've looked at to compel behavior, to like drive people 823 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,400 Speaker 1: away from a particular location. Yeah, I was thinking about 824 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,399 Speaker 1: Monty Python many months back, and I of course thought 825 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,400 Speaker 1: of the Holy hand grenade of antioch U, the magical 826 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,720 Speaker 1: weapon that is used against the the killer rabbit and um. 827 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: And I remember looking around a little bit like just 828 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,280 Speaker 1: to see is there anything in use during the general 829 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,680 Speaker 1: historic range that we're talking about here that would have 830 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:10,240 Speaker 1: been like a grenade, And as I recalled, there wasn't really, 831 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: so I guess there is maybe a potential lag. Uh. 832 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,880 Speaker 1: There's this kind of gap between the high age of 833 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 1: stone throwing and stick throwing as a viable weapon and 834 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:26,840 Speaker 1: then the emergence of explosives, which kind of reignites the 835 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,520 Speaker 1: the need to be able to throw precisely or at 836 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: least with some degree of precision. You don't want to 837 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,279 Speaker 1: throw a hand garnaide imprecisely. Um, but we certainly say 838 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: with hand grenades that like the need for individuals to 839 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,640 Speaker 1: throw these things becomes all the more important. I mean, Um, 840 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,640 Speaker 1: you look at images of say modern soldiers training to 841 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 1: throw hand grenades, and there's a definite like uh form 842 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,200 Speaker 1: to how you do it, you know, like there's definite 843 00:50:55,200 --> 00:51:00,000 Speaker 1: training in place, so uh precise throwing of handheld object 844 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 1: remains uh seemingly important part of of the modern military scenario. 845 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,319 Speaker 1: You know, I didn't plan it like this, but it's 846 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,560 Speaker 1: interesting how this series began as us uh wanting to 847 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 1: look at examples of non human animals throwing and uh 848 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,960 Speaker 1: and ultimately the main thing that I'm taking away from 849 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,279 Speaker 1: it is is the special role of throwing in in 850 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,600 Speaker 1: the development of human culture and human cognition. Yeah. Yeah, 851 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,520 Speaker 1: I was surprised by as well, because yeah, it was 852 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,880 Speaker 1: we started off with the occopus and now here we 853 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,160 Speaker 1: are talking about soldiers with grenades. We have to keep 854 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,120 Speaker 1: the grenades away from the octopus is by the way, yes, 855 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,799 Speaker 1: I should also point I didn't even get into the 856 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:46,359 Speaker 1: use of sharpened throwing weapons, but obviously that's a huge 857 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,040 Speaker 1: part of weapon culture throughout history as well. I don't know, 858 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,840 Speaker 1: I guess it felt like one step manufacturing or materially 859 00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 1: away from just throwing a stick or throwing a rock, 860 00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,200 Speaker 1: So I didn't get into that, but obviously there's a 861 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,640 Speaker 1: lot one could a fationally discussed involving hand thrown axes, 862 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:07,120 Speaker 1: hand thrown darts and knives and so forth. So I 863 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,439 Speaker 1: guess different aerodynamic properties come into play with at least 864 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,960 Speaker 1: some of those weapon designs. All Right, we're gonna go 865 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:15,719 Speaker 1: ahead and end it there, but we'd love to hear 866 00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 1: from everyone out there if you have thoughts, uh feedback 867 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,600 Speaker 1: experience on anything we've discussed here in this episode or 868 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:30,759 Speaker 1: the previous episodes regarding animals throwing things, humans throwing things, UM, 869 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 1: the the role that uh that that being able to 870 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:38,400 Speaker 1: throw something may have in the development of language UM, 871 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:43,520 Speaker 1: and also just the various UM weapons cultures martial arts 872 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,480 Speaker 1: that have involved hand thrown objects. If you have anything 873 00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,680 Speaker 1: to add about any of that police right in, we 874 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,080 Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. Just a reminder that 875 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 1: Stuffed by Your Mind is a science podcast with core 876 00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: episodes publishing on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Monday's we do 877 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,399 Speaker 1: a listener mail, and that's that's what you can write 878 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,879 Speaker 1: in discuss some of the mail that comes in. On 879 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,040 Speaker 1: Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster fact episode, 880 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,200 Speaker 1: and then on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns 881 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: to just talk about a strange film on Weird House 882 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,560 Speaker 1: Cinema huch thanks to our audio producer J. J. Pauseway. 883 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,000 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 884 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,480 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 885 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: topic for the future, to share something interesting, or just 886 00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,680 Speaker 1: to say hello, you can email us at contact at 887 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:35,839 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow 888 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,399 Speaker 1: Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more 889 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,080 Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart radios, the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 890 00:53:42,160 --> 00:54:00,399 Speaker 1: or wherever you listening to your favorite shows. Four