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Speaker 1: I really think of this as like this moment that

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Speaker 1: like sort of split my life and half like there's

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Speaker 1: a very very distinct sort of before and after, and

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Speaker 1: I remember thinking like, oh my my family, as I

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Speaker 1: know it is over.

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a special bonus episode

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Speaker 2: of Betrayal. Recently we've connected with a host of another

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Speaker 2: popular podcast about betrayal and deception. It's called Nobody Should

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Speaker 2: Believe Me, hosted by Andrea Dunlop. Every season covers a

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Speaker 2: case of factitious disorder, also known as Munchausen's and for Andrea,

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Speaker 2: the story is personal. We're going to be hearing more

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Speaker 2: from her over the next few weeks, so we wanted

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Speaker 2: to start by telling Andrea's It starts in childhood and

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Speaker 2: involves some of her earliest memories of her sister, Megan.

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Speaker 1: My sister and I are less than two years apart.

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Speaker 1: She was born in eighty I was born in eighty two. Right,

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Speaker 1: so I feel like we had this very happy childhood.

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Speaker 1: It feels like a real bigone era.

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Speaker 2: And now, right, they grew up in an affluent Seattle suburb.

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Speaker 1: You know, we were friends with all the other kids

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Speaker 1: on our block, and there was like not busy streets,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of like riding bikes. We played outdoors

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Speaker 1: a lot, built a lot of forts, climbed a lot

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Speaker 1: of trees.

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Speaker 3: Just just like such a dream, such a dream childhood.

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Speaker 2: Her sister, Megan was a social butterfly.

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Speaker 1: But when I was a kid, I was not really

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Speaker 1: the kid that would just like go up to a

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Speaker 1: person and be like hello. And my sister always was

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Speaker 1: that person, right. She just always seemed to have a

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Speaker 1: really easy time.

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Speaker 3: Connecting with people.

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Speaker 1: She seemed like especially good at relationships.

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Speaker 2: She always felt cool when she got to spend time

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Speaker 2: with her older sister and her friends because Andrea looked

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Speaker 2: up to Meghan. By the time they were teenagers, they

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Speaker 2: had each other's backs.

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Speaker 3: It's like you have the sibling code.

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Speaker 1: This code of like nobody's snitching to mom and dad,

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Speaker 1: so like if your sneaking out or like pretending you

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Speaker 1: were somewhere else when you're your boyfriend's house. A lot

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Speaker 1: of like gurly secret keeping stuff and just kind of

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Speaker 1: like a sibling co conspirator.

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Speaker 2: Both girls loved sports like tennis and swimming, but in

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Speaker 2: high school, Megan started having problems with her back.

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Speaker 3: My memory of it was that it was sports injuries.

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Speaker 1: I have really strong memory of this, like weird plastic

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Speaker 1: back brace that she had that she would wear.

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Speaker 2: And then Andrea told us that Megan began having knee pain.

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Speaker 1: She was saying she was having all this pain in

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Speaker 1: her knee and they went in and did a surgery

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Speaker 1: and they couldn't find anything.

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Speaker 2: But Andrea recalls what was most alarming of all.

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Speaker 1: There was an incident in high school where she was

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Speaker 1: losing her hair all of a sudden, and that was

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Speaker 1: very memorable because it's like a big deal in your

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Speaker 1: teenage girl and like losing your hair just like such

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Speaker 1: a nightmare. So I remember hearing conversations about that and

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Speaker 1: thinking like, oh wow, my sister's just really unlucky that

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Speaker 1: she has all these things happen. And there was certainly

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Speaker 1: I remember in our teenage years kind of a feeling

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Speaker 1: of like, oh, there's always something like, oh, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: get better, and then it's this, and.

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Speaker 3: Then it's that.

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Speaker 2: Andrea said that Megan always needed to go to the

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Speaker 2: doctor to get something examined or to have X rays done,

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Speaker 2: but she said Megan had a good attitude about it.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, like she's brave, she's stoic.

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Speaker 1: She has this tough thing, but she's just like kind

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Speaker 1: of persevering.

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Speaker 2: Andrea, on the other hand, was perfectly healthy, so whenever

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Speaker 2: her mom and sister went to doctor's appointments, she got

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Speaker 2: to stay at home reading teen magazines.

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Speaker 1: I was obsessed with magazines when I was a teenager.

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Speaker 1: I was just like young people today could never imagine

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Speaker 1: like the hole that magazines had on teenagers, because you know,

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Speaker 1: I was like living in this very like sleepy suburb,

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Speaker 1: which is like, again, a very nice childhood experience to have,

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Speaker 1: but very you know, it's.

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Speaker 3: Just like, oh, I can get out of this small town.

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Speaker 2: The magazines made her feel mature. They gave her a

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Speaker 2: peek into adulthood. And when Megan went off to college,

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Speaker 2: Andrea got to visit there, she could put all of

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Speaker 2: her teen magazine knowledge to good use.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this was a time where I was just like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god.

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Speaker 1: My sister is a college girl, and so like I

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Speaker 1: would go to parties with them, and I have my

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Speaker 1: little fake ID, so we would go to the clubs

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Speaker 1: in Canada where they could get in when they're at nineteen.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, sorry mom and dad, but yeah, we had

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Speaker 1: a great time and it just seemed like the coolest

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Speaker 1: thing ever.

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Speaker 3: I think those were some like the easiest years of

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Speaker 3: our relationship.

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Speaker 2: Megan didn't seem too concerned about her classes or grades,

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Speaker 2: so it was a surprise to the family when she announced.

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Speaker 1: That she wanted to do pre med as a major

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Speaker 1: and really started talking about getting into a medical field.

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Speaker 1: But you know, given that my sister was not a

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Speaker 1: big school person, obviously becoming a doctor involves a lot

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Speaker 1: of school. So I think it was a little bit like, well,

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Speaker 1: all right, like it's okay, better start.

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Speaker 3: Maybe, you know, studying a bit more.

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Speaker 1: And then eventually she dropped out of college and went

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Speaker 1: to get.

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Speaker 3: Her nursing degree.

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Speaker 1: And I remember thinking, oh, this seems like a really

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Speaker 1: good field for her.

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Speaker 2: Megan had always been drawn to medical stuff, so it

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Speaker 2: felt like a natural fit. Around the same time, their

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Speaker 2: cousin was diagnosed with leukemia. The disease was progressing rapidly.

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Speaker 1: Horrible, and Megan started going to see him a lot.

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Speaker 1: I remember thinking like, oh, I feel very scared of this,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't seem like my sister feels scared of it,

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Speaker 1: And I remember just admiring that about her.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, Megan earned her nursing degree and got a job

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Speaker 2: working at an obgyn clinic in their hometown.

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Speaker 1: She seemed to be like really thriving in her job.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is an office that I would go to.

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Speaker 1: I knew a bunch of people from the office, so

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Speaker 1: I knew she was like very well liked in an office.

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Speaker 1: She had a lot of friends, Like people seem to

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Speaker 1: really respect her. I would get in the habit of

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Speaker 1: very much of like asking my sister, you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: like medical questions.

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Speaker 2: As Megan's career took off, Andreas did too. When Andrea

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Speaker 2: graduated college, she moved to New York City to pursue

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Speaker 2: her dream of becoming a magazine writer or maybe a novelist.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was twenty one twenty two.

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Speaker 1: That was very much the era of the Ten Things

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Speaker 1: I Hate About You Devilwar's product. It was like, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna move to the big city and you're gonna work

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Speaker 1: for a magazine.

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Speaker 3: So that's what that's what I want to do.

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Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, I'm gonna go be like a magazine journalist.

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, I look back and I just have

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Speaker 1: to laugh at myself. I'm like, oh boy, what a

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Speaker 1: case of main character Syndrome.

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Speaker 2: She landed a job at the book publisher Random House.

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Speaker 1: I had like all my delusions intact about becoming a

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Speaker 1: published novelist, and so I was like, well, shortly now,

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Speaker 1: like I know all these people in publishing, and that

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Speaker 1: will be easy.

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Speaker 3: No, that is not quite how it worked out.

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Speaker 2: New York was a grind. Andrea worked long days and

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Speaker 2: often forgot to call back home to check on her

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Speaker 2: parents and her sister.

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Speaker 1: You know, in terms of what was going on with

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Speaker 1: her life at this time, there was a bunch of

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Speaker 1: stuff that I didn't know about what was happening.

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Speaker 2: Andrea alleges that at one point Megan got evicted from

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Speaker 2: her apartment, but Andrea was far removed from the family

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Speaker 2: drama back and see.

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Speaker 1: Certainly, I think my parents were having some bigger concerns

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Speaker 1: because they were sort of actively bailing her out of

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Speaker 1: these situations, and sort of that was kind of my

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Speaker 1: understanding of a lot of this, right It's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're gonna have to like swooping again. So

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Speaker 1: I was aware of that and sort of aware of

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Speaker 1: their relationship becoming more difficult.

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Speaker 2: But she and her sister still had that sibling code.

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Speaker 2: They were on each other's team.

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Speaker 1: I was pretty defensive of her with my mom and dad, right,

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Speaker 1: it was just like, oh, you guys are just like

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Speaker 1: so hard on her or whatever.

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Speaker 3: I mean. They may even have tried to sort of

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Speaker 3: like talk to me more about it, and I.

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Speaker 1: Don't know that I was super like accepting of it

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Speaker 1: because I didn't want that to split up my.

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Speaker 3: Sister and I.

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Speaker 2: Soon her parents' concerns became hard to ignore.

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Speaker 3: This is where stuff like really took a turn again.

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Speaker 1: My sister was working still as a nurse, and she

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Speaker 1: had met this boyfriend and who had a.

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Speaker 3: Son, I think he was five at the time.

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Speaker 1: They seemed like a strange fit, like he worked at

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Speaker 1: this pawn shop and the fact that he had a

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Speaker 1: kid was like an extra sort of attraction that she

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Speaker 1: could just be an immediate mom, and she seemed to

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Speaker 1: slip into that role really fast, and so we were

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Speaker 1: sort of like concerned about that situation.

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Speaker 2: Megan always wanted to be a mom, but taking to

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Speaker 2: the role so quickly for a child she just meant

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Speaker 2: seemed troubling and maybe irresponsible. When Andrea tried to talk

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Speaker 2: to Meghan about her decisions, they got into a big

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Speaker 2: fight she says, Megan cut her off for months, but

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Speaker 2: then Meghan came to the family with big news.

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Speaker 3: She called me to tell me that she was pregnant.

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Speaker 2: With the announcement, Andrea and her family were ready to

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Speaker 2: embrace Meghan to start a new chapter.

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Speaker 1: Someone tells you they're pregnant, it's like, all right, well,

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Speaker 1: we're going to move past this whatever thing. And at

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Speaker 1: least for me, like that's what it did. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: who cares about that stupid fight we had, you know.

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Speaker 1: And then the story that I heard and that my

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Speaker 1: parents heard, was that her boyfriend was going back to Tennessee,

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Speaker 1: where he was from, because he had to go there

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Speaker 1: for work, and so he was going to be there temporarily,

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Speaker 1: but like he was going to come back and this

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Speaker 1: whole thing.

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Speaker 2: So with her boyfriend and his son out of town,

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Speaker 2: the family rallied around Megan. After her first pregnancy scan,

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Speaker 2: she called Andrea with more good news.

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Speaker 1: She was pregnant with twins, twin girls, So we're excited.

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Speaker 1: I was thrilled about being an aunt.

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Speaker 2: During Megan's pregnancy with the twins, Andrea felt far away,

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Speaker 2: so she made trips home to Seattle as much as

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Speaker 2: she could she.

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Speaker 1: You know, had a belly. She was wearing maternity clothes.

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Speaker 1: We got presents.

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Speaker 3: For the babies.

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Speaker 1: I remember getting like children's books from the publisher I

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Speaker 1: was working with, and she had a bunch of baby

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Speaker 1: stuff in her apartment because it was happening.

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Speaker 2: And then on one visit home, Andrea told us about

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Speaker 2: one particular moment. It's a memory she's replayed in her

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Speaker 2: mind a thousand times, a moment where she trusted her

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Speaker 2: sister so much that the lines of her own reality blurred.

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Speaker 1: My very weirdest memory was sitting with her at my

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Speaker 1: arm at my aunt's house for Thanksgiving, and she was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Atery, put put your hand on my belly.

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Speaker 1: The baby's kicking. And I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that's so cool. And I felt a baby kick.

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Speaker 2: That year, Andrew spent New Year's Eve in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 2: She said that in the middle of the celebration, she

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Speaker 2: got a panicked phone call from her parents.

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Speaker 1: And they said that Megan was in the hospital and

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Speaker 1: that she had gone into labor early and she was

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Speaker 1: about six months long, so you know, that's scary early.

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Speaker 1: And she said, yeah, my water broke, and then they

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Speaker 1: took me to the hospital and she, yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: just like really telling us this really dramatic situation.

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Speaker 2: With the rest of her family and her boyfriend out

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Speaker 2: of town, Megan was alone dealing with this crisis on

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Speaker 2: her own, and.

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Speaker 1: So my parents, you know, started scrambling to get flights back.

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Speaker 1: I had to go back to New York because I

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, some brand new job and like

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Speaker 1: was very junior, so I couldn't take any more time off.

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Speaker 3: I remember talking to her like in the airport.

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Speaker 1: I was just sort of like get on a flight

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Speaker 1: and then called her as soon as I got off

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Speaker 1: and just was for updates, you know.

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Speaker 3: And then she ended up losing the babies.

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Speaker 2: Their entire family was crushed. By the time their parents

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Speaker 2: got home, Megan had been discharged from the hospital, and.

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Speaker 1: I was heartbroken, like six months in, just devastating, and

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Speaker 1: I knew how much she wanted to be a mom,

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Speaker 1: and like, yeah, it was just really really really sad

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Speaker 1: for her.

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Speaker 2: And then Andrea alleges.

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Speaker 1: That I think it was probably about a week after

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Speaker 1: I got back in New York, my dad called me

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Speaker 1: and said something to the effect of the story of Megan's.

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Speaker 3: About these babies. Is not adding up.

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Speaker 2: A few weeks after her sister lost the babies, Andrea

258
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Speaker 2: Dunlop got another emergency call, this time from her dad.

259
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Speaker 2: He was claiming that something was wrong with Megan's story.

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Speaker 2: He told her that earlier that week, their mom had

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Speaker 2: been over at Megan's apartment.

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Speaker 1: Which I think she was getting evicted from. Electricity had

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Speaker 1: been shut off and it was just like in a

264
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Speaker 1: bad state.

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Speaker 2: Andrea's mom alleged that.

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Speaker 1: She saw some paperwork for hospital admission that was on

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Speaker 1: the date that she had said she was in the

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00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,360
Speaker 1: hospital and she had been seen for dehydration. There was

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Speaker 1: nothing else in the paperwork.

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Speaker 2: It was an alarming discovery. So Andrea called her sister's

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Speaker 2: best friend, the one who drove Megan to the hospital.

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Speaker 1: She and I started talking and she told me, well,

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Speaker 1: Megan told me that her fiance made it back in time,

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Speaker 1: and that he was the one who took her to

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Speaker 1: the hospital, and that they said goodbye to the babies

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Speaker 1: and took pictures. He has detailed like really detailed versions,

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Speaker 1: and so obviously like those are two completely separate stories.

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00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 2: Andrea needed to talk with Megan's fiance. When she tracked

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00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 2: him down, she says, he told her an entirely different story.

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Speaker 2: He said they were no longer together and that he'd

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Speaker 2: left Megan a few months prior.

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Speaker 3: He had witnessed some behavior with my sister and his

283
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,640
Speaker 3: son that had alarmed him and that had crossed the

284
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 3: line for him, and broke up with her. And then

285
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Speaker 3: the next day she came home from work with a

286
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 3: positive pregnancy test. Now, my sister worked for an obgyn clinic.

287
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Speaker 3: And then she brought home the ultrasounds which I had.

288
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 1: Seen, also ultrasound photos, and she had torn a piece

289
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Speaker 1: of it off. And he found the piece and it

290
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,760
Speaker 1: had someone else's name on it, and she gave him

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Speaker 1: this explanation of like, oh, well, I just did this

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Speaker 1: skin on myself and I had to enter someone else's

293
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:39,400
Speaker 1: name so that it would end.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like completely nonsense. Called.

295
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Speaker 2: So the family went to Megan to ask what was

296
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Speaker 2: really going on, and according to Andrea, Megan confessed that

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00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,400
Speaker 2: she had lied. She admitted that she'd actually lost the

298
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Speaker 2: babies earlier in the pregnancy, right after her fiance broke

299
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Speaker 2: up with her, but she was too distraught and embarrassed

300
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Speaker 2: to tell anyone. With so many different versions of the story.

301
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:08,960
Speaker 2: It was hard to know what was true.

302
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,360
Speaker 1: The most likely outcome is that she had never been pregnant,

303
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, and this was not ever a real pregnancy.

304
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,360
Speaker 1: So that was a big deal because then this was

305
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:22,840
Speaker 1: a family crisis.

306
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,680
Speaker 2: Andrea struggled to accept that her own sister could have

307
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Speaker 2: lied to her like this.

308
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,280
Speaker 1: I think I was in such shock and scared, honestly,

309
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,320
Speaker 1: like it's a scary thing to go down this road

310
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Speaker 1: and start thinking about like, what do you mean? It

311
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Speaker 1: wasn't real? Like I just saw her. She looked pregnant.

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00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,080
Speaker 1: I felt baby's kick, Like what are you talking about?

313
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Speaker 2: Plus, Andrea had spent hours on the phone consoling her

314
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Speaker 2: sister while she was in crisis.

315
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Speaker 3: I knew she was capable of being deceptive. I had

316
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Speaker 3: seen that, but this was just such.

317
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:07,359
Speaker 1: A deeper level, and it was so dramatic. Thinking about

318
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,919
Speaker 1: her sitting on the phone just like in her apartment narrating.

319
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Speaker 3: This whole thing to me was really really disturbing.

320
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Speaker 2: It was an unthinkable situation, and everyone in the family

321
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:22,000
Speaker 2: was handling it differently.

322
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Speaker 1: My dad was obviously upset, but I think he was

323
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Speaker 1: much more straightforward now he's the British, like stiff upper

324
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,080
Speaker 1: lip and sort of like we're just gonna like fix it,

325
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Speaker 1: and like we got to just get in there and

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Speaker 1: just get Megan shaped up, you know kind of thing.

327
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Speaker 3: So I think that was kind of his approach.

328
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Speaker 2: And Andrew was still trying to find any other possible explanation.

329
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Speaker 2: As for Megan, Andrea says, she was acting like the

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Speaker 2: whole thing never happened.

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Speaker 1: She had this incredible ability to just sort of like

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Speaker 1: turn the page. It was just kind of like this

333
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,600
Speaker 1: fever dream, right, like you're just like, oh, oh, that

334
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,400
Speaker 1: like weird thing happened.

335
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Speaker 3: But it's just like, Okay, we're all just gonna put

336
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Speaker 3: it in.

337
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,920
Speaker 1: The corner, and maybe if we never talk about it again,

338
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,920
Speaker 1: like maybe we don't have to like think too hard

339
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:10,440
Speaker 1: about it.

340
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 2: The last time Andrea tried to approach her sister about

341
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,560
Speaker 2: her behavior, they got in a fight.

342
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 1: She had stopped talking to me for months. So it's like,

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Speaker 1: I think we all knew by that point that we

344
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,040
Speaker 1: will lose her if we try and hold her accountable,

345
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 1: Like if we push her on this pregnancy thing, she's

346
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Speaker 1: gonna stop talking to us.

347
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,880
Speaker 2: The family was frozen, unsure about the next move. That's

348
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,320
Speaker 2: when Megan introduced them to a new guy in her life, Andy.

349
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Speaker 1: And we thought he was such a stand up guy,

350
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 1: and then she just seemed better. And then again there

351
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 1: was just this like pretty quick like turning of the page.

352
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,440
Speaker 1: You know, she was still at her job. She's got

353
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,360
Speaker 1: this boyfriend, and then they got engaged, and then it

354
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 1: was like they had this like very big, you know,

355
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 1: fancy wedding, and we were just like okay, like a

356
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 1: new chapter.

357
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,120
Speaker 2: Andrea was the maid of honor and Megan's childhood best

358
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 2: friend was in the wedding too.

359
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 1: The night before the wedding, we stayed at this beautiful hotel,

360
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,040
Speaker 1: the Fairmont and Seattle, and her friend brought like a

361
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,120
Speaker 1: photo album and we were like looking at all these

362
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 1: photos from growing up with each other.

363
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,160
Speaker 3: And was like laughing.

364
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 1: And then you know, the next day we were like

365
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 1: all getting ready and the bridal suite together and it

366
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 1: was just like such a happy moment, and I remember thinking, oh,

367
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 1: my sister is back, Like this is the version of

368
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 1: her that I love and the version of her that

369
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,479
Speaker 1: I remember. She's so happy and look at her. Everything's

370
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,280
Speaker 1: gonna be fine now, and like that is my last

371
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,199
Speaker 1: is my last happy memory. It's Meghan, because it was

372
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 1: not very long after that she got pregnant.

373
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,000
Speaker 2: This time it seemed different. Megan was married, the family

374
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 2: liked her husband. She even let Andrea come with her

375
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,680
Speaker 2: to the my first oulder sound appointment.

376
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 1: There was at tech in there and I saw the

377
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 1: images of it, and I remember thinking like, but is

378
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,160
Speaker 1: she really pregnant?

379
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:10,960
Speaker 2: Andrea was guarded.

380
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 1: And then on New Year's Eve again New Year's Eve,

381
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: so anniversary, I had stayed home. My parents went to

382
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 1: their house in California, so they were out of town again,

383
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: and she went into labor early.

384
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 2: The baby wasn't due for another month.

385
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 1: So I went to the hospital again. It was sort

386
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:36,920
Speaker 1: of this thing of like, Okay, well I'm here, I'm

387
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 1: seeing it.

388
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 3: It is really happening.

389
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 1: But I remember, until I saw the baby, I was like,

390
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, like I don't like, I don't I

391
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 1: cannot cannot be sure.

392
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 2: When the baby was finally born, everyone in the room

393
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 2: breathed a sigh of relief. The baby was healthy and

394
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,719
Speaker 2: he was real because he was born over a month early.

395
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 2: They kept him in the NICU for a few weeks.

396
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 3: And.

397
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 1: You know, when he left the hospital, his prognosis was good.

398
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 2: But within the first few months at home, the baby's

399
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 2: health took a turn.

400
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: He immediately started having all these issues and he was

401
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 1: having issues around his feeding and developmental milestones.

402
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 3: And my sister was talking about it a lot.

403
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: And it was definitely during this period that like something

404
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 1: really started to feel like off off.

405
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 3: And like scary off. You know.

406
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 1: I have a really vivid memory of being at my parents'

407
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:51,120
Speaker 1: house with Megan and my nephew and just looking at

408
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 1: her and having this really strong feeling of like she's

409
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: not there.

410
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,959
Speaker 2: Andrew decided to leave New York and move back home.

411
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 2: She was working on a novel and she wanted to

412
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 2: write it in a quiet, familiar environment. But whenever she

413
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,159
Speaker 2: saw her sister and her new nephew, Megan only wanted

414
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 2: to talk about one thing, her son's health problems.

415
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: He wasn't gaining weight and he was diagnosed failure to thrive.

416
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: He had a nasal feeding too, which goes you know,

417
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 1: natal a gastric which goes in through the nose down

418
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: to the stomach.

419
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 2: It felt like almost every week there was another crisis

420
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 2: with her son's health.

421
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: My sister was telling us that the next sort of

422
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: step in this intervention was to have a surgically implanted

423
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: feeding tube a gastric tube in his stomach.

424
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 2: A surgery like this could be scary in any circumstance.

425
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 2: The baby was an infant only one year old, but

426
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 2: considering all of Megan's alleged lies, the Dunlop family was

427
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 2: on high alert.

428
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 1: By this point, my parents and I had been discussing

429
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: our concerns.

430
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 2: Meghan had quit her job at the obgyn clinic. She

431
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 2: wanted to spend every day, all day with her sick baby.

432
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 2: He was never out of her sight.

433
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 1: For the most part, she would not let people come

434
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: to the doctor with her, but for some reason, she

435
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: let my mom come to his gastroentrology appointment.

436
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 2: It was the first time anyone in their family had

437
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: been allowed to meet the baby's doctor.

438
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 3: At the appointment, they discussed this feeding tube intervention and

439
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 3: the doctor said, no, we want to hold off on

440
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 3: that for now. Let's wait and see. Let's try and

441
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 3: keep him on the nasel tube. And obviously this's like

442
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 3: surgical intervention, it is not unseerious.

443
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 2: Andrea's mom was relieved to hear that her infant grandson

444
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: didn't need surgery, and she relayed the good news. But

445
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: then Megan called Andrea with a different story and she.

446
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: Said, yeah, the doctor said, you know, they're really pushing me.

447
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 1: They really saying he needs this surgery. And I knew

448
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: it was a lie.

449
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 3: Why would you want your baby to have surgery if

450
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 3: they didn't need it.

451
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,239
Speaker 2: The next day, Andrew's parents wanted to come over and

452
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: talk in person. That was out of the norm.

453
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: What I was like, it's the middle of the day,

454
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: like why is my dad not in the office, and

455
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: just being like this is very weird. And then they

456
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: came in and they sat down with me and they said,

457
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 1: we talked to our family doctor about these concerns, and

458
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: she said that this sounds like Munchausen by proxy.

459
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 2: Munchausens, it's a very serious pattern of behavior where someone

460
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 2: pretends to be sick, even intentionally makes themselves sick. But

461
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: most dangerous of all, in Munchausen's by proxy, they might

462
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: make someone else sick, often their own children. They might

463
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: withhold food, drug their child with dangerous medications they aren't prescribed,

464
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 2: or even poison them anything to get medical attention. Because

465
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: people with Munchausen's have a pathological need for attention and sympathy.

466
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: It really felt like this moment that sort of split

467
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: my life in half.

468
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 3: I remember thinking like, oh, my family, like, as I know,

469
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 3: it is over.

470
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 2: As a Dunlap family read about Munchausen's and Munchausen's by proxy,

471
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: it all sounded so familiar, going all the way back

472
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: to when Meghan was a teenager constantly having knee pain

473
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,239
Speaker 2: and back pain. Andrea's parents even alleged that back then,

474
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 2: when Meghan claimed to be losing her hair.

475
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: My mom took her to the dermatologist and found out

476
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: that she was actually shaving it off and lying about it.

477
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 2: It was hard to accept, and Meghan had not been

478
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: formally assessed for Munchausen's. But after decades of witnessing this pattern,

479
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 2: Andrea says, the family came to their own conclusion they

480
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 2: believed Megan had Munchausen's.

481
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: I mean, there's just so much had piled up, and

482
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 1: then we had seen her tell this just like very

483
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: direct lie about the gaster too.

484
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: This time around, there was a baby involved, an innocent

485
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: child who depended on Megan. Andrea says that changed everything.

486
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: You have to reframe a person once you realize that

487
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: they're capable of harming a child. That's a vulnerable little

488
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: person and I loved that baby.

489
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 2: The family felt like they could no longer sit back

490
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: and ignore Meghan's behavior, so they decided to intervene.

491
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 3: We had to.

492
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like it didn't seem like there

493
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: was another option. And my mom, very brave of her,

494
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: called a gastrentrologist to a the point and she'd been in,

495
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: went in and she told him are concerns. She told

496
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: him the history of Megan lying about her own stuff,

497
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: of the pregnancy, fake pregnancy, and he said, oh, do

498
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: do you feel like it's time for an intervention? And

499
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: she said yes, And she was imagining like, Okay, we're

500
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: all going to get together in like a hospital conference

501
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: room and talk about it and try and get you know, Megan.

502
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 3: On the straight and arrow. And that's not what he

503
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: was talking about.

504
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: Instead, her report was elevated to the Child Abused Team

505
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: at the Children's Hospital, and when doctors reviewed Megan's files,

506
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: they were alarmed and they called CPS.

507
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 3: And then they ended up doing an emergency removal.

508
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: But according to Andrea, the Dunlap family didn't know the

509
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 2: hospital brought in CPS until they got a call from

510
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: Megan's husband.

511
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 3: He called us and was hysterical and distraught. CPS just

512
00:27:53,960 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 3: came and took their son. We were shocked. We did

513
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 3: not know that was going to happen.

514
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: And Megan and Andy very quickly found out that my

515
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: mother had made that call and were very angry with her.

516
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: The whole family was reeling.

517
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: Did they do the right thing?

518
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: Well, for context, it took much more than their mom's

519
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: report to get an emergency removal approved. This action is

520
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: always a last resort, something that's only done if multiple

521
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 2: experts agree that the child is in immediate danger. Even

522
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 2: though Andrea and her parents hated this outcome, they said

523
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: they were acting out of concern for Megan's baby, and

524
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 2: finally it seemed like someone was paying attention.

525
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: You know, I think we like really naively thought like, well,

526
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: they're involved, like the doctors reported, right, the doctors understand

527
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: this is happening. Someone's going to do something.

528
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: But from the very beginning, Andrea says, the emergency removal

529
00:28:58,680 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: was mishandled.

530
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: The placement was a disaster.

531
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: They placed the baby with my sister's in laws, who

532
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: did not believe that she was abusing him, so they

533
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: let her see him all the time, and it's very

534
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: important to keep child separated so that you can see

535
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: what their health is without the influence of the parent.

536
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: And according to Andrea, that wasn't the only mistake.

537
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: There was no police investigation. There should have been, There

538
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: should always be.

539
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: Instead, CPS investigated the case. When it finally came to

540
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: the hearing and family court, Meghan arrived with an entourage

541
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: of character witnesses. This is what Andrea remembers from that day.

542
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 1: My mom and I went and it was my sister

543
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: and her husband and his parents and like four of

544
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: his aunties, and his best friend and his best friend's wife.

545
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean, just this like mob of people in this

546
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: little room in like the courthouse. Everybody got their chance

547
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: to talk about how my sister was the most wonderful

548
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: mother in the world and how can my mother and

549
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: I ever accuse her, Just like the meanest looks I've

550
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: ever gotten in my life, just people looking at us

551
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: like we were just a scum of the area.

552
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 3: It is so awful.

553
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: I remember really looking at my brother in law's mom, like,

554
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: come on, you have to see this. Why would we

555
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: be doing this. We have known her all our lives

556
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: and she has this like long history, and you know,

557
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: my sister's just shaking her head, and I was just like,

558
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: my god, she's like a cull leader.

559
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: At the end of the family court hearing, the judge

560
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: ruled with Megan. According to the court documents, the case

561
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: was closed with an unfounded finding, meaning that quote available

562
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: information indicates that more likely than not, child abuse or

563
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: neglect did not occur, or there's insufficient evidence for the

564
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: department to determine whether the alleged child abuse did or

565
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: did not occur. And with that, Megan's son was returned

566
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: to her care.

567
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: They basically told her like, ma'am, you need to get

568
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: some therapy, and just this sort of soft so it

569
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: seemed like there was like some acknowledgment that things have

570
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: been happening, but she's like no understanding of what was

571
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: actually happening, and like not a solution.

572
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: According to Andrea, Meghan cut off the family. She says,

573
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: Megan wouldn't return their text or calls, and.

574
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: I remember, like the first Christmas without her was horrible,

575
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: and you just think, like could this really be permanent.

576
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: Andrea focused on managing her own mental health and writing

577
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: her novel. A few months later, her father got a

578
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: call from Meghan's husband Andy. According to their father, Andy

579
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: wanted to talk about how he'd caught Meghan in a lie.

580
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: Andy said it was over something interpersonal, nothing medical or

581
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: to do with their kid. But nevertheless, Andy's call was

582
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: an opening for the.

583
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: Dunlops, and we felt so much relief because he got

584
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: in touch with my dad. He wanted to talk about

585
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: this what had happened. We were like, Okay, now he's

586
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: seen it for his own eyes.

587
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: Maybe Andy would see the Dunlop side of things.

588
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: And he was expressing to us like, oh, I really

589
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: want to you know, I know Megan misses you guys.

590
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: I want you guys to reconcile. I'm working on it.

591
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: I'm talking to her. She's just so sad, she feels betrayed.

592
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah.

593
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: But he was still saying like, oh, she never heard

594
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: her child. She'd never heard her child. And as was

595
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: this back and forth with my dad.

596
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: Over time, it became clear that Andy was standing by

597
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: Megan today. Andrea believes the real reason he reached out

598
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: to their dad was for money.

599
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: He had also realized, as they've been married for a

600
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: little bit, the extent of my sister's financial troubles, and

601
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: so he was also trying to get my dad to

602
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: help them out financially, and you know, my dad was like, yes,

603
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: I want to help, but you need to send me

604
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: my grandson's medical records, which seems like a fair direct,

605
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: and he just absolutely refused to do it.

606
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: He's like, that's not appropriate. It's not appropriate for you

607
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 3: to ask for that.

608
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 2: With that, talks between Andy and the Dunlops fell apart.

609
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: The door to Meghan's life closed again, and it stayed

610
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: closed for years. In that time, Andrea published her first novel,

611
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: and she got married herself, without her sister at her wedding.

612
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: I think a lot about like, if I had stayed

613
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: in my sister's life and sort of stayed wrapped up

614
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: in all of this, if I would have been able

615
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: to have any of those things, because it had taken

616
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: quite a bit of work to get back to like

617
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: a healthy place after all that happened.

618
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: After years of silence from Megan, a mutual friend reached

619
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: out to Andrea. She shared the shocking news that Megan

620
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 2: had another preach delivery.

621
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 3: She went into labor at like twenty four weeks. That

622
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: baby died and she posted a picture of herself with

623
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 3: that baby on her social media.

624
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: So I found out about that. I got back to us,

625
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: and I remember, like my mother looked up the death

626
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: certificate because.

627
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 3: We weren't really sure whether to believe that, but that

628
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 3: that was true, that happened.

629
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 2: Now the family was more concerned than ever, but they

630
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 2: were still cut off from Megan. Through acquaintances, bits and

631
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: pieces of information filtered back to the Dunlops. They learned

632
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,959
Speaker 2: that after she lost the baby.

633
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 3: Right after that, she got pregnant with my niece.

634
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: So seven months after losing the baby, she has another

635
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: baby again at twenty four weeks.

636
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 3: This baby, my niece survives, but is in the hospital.

637
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 3: You know, obviously a baby born ut early is going

638
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 3: to be in the hospital for a while.

639
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 2: After that, the Dunlops didn't hear anything about Meghan or

640
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 2: her children for several years.

641
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 3: That was until a family member reaches out to us

642
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: because my niece is on the Like you know, hospitals

643
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 3: fundraising pages have like stories of kids that are sick

644
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: and are at the hospital a lot, and my niece

645
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 3: was on that page.

646
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: According to the fundraiser page, Meghan's daughter had been in

647
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: and out of the hospital for her entire life. It

648
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: was now her second child with severe health complications.

649
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: And it was like this, you know, laundry list of

650
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: like all the things all the time. You know, she

651
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: spent most of her life in the hospital. She's had

652
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: you know this, she has have these many pokes a day,

653
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah.

654
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 2: Then they found out that Megan had been going public

655
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 2: with her story.

656
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: She'd like been in the news, been doing some fundraising

657
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: here and there, you know, like he's been a couple

658
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: of articles about oh this mom that has these two children,

659
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: you know, all these issues. At that point, my dad

660
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: sent a letter to the hospital letting them know about

661
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: like the history, because this was at a different hospital

662
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 1: than had treated my nephew.

663
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: After that, it was silent for a few months. Andrea

664
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 2: had just had a baby of her own, and she

665
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: drew a boundary with her family.

666
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: And at this point I really told my parents. I

667
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: was like, you know, I don't want to hear updates anymore.

668
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: Like there's nothing I can do about any of this.

669
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: It's so upsetting to learn about these things and to

670
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: see you know, her in the news and all this stuff.

671
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: And I was like I don't want to know, and

672
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: let un tell something major happens, Like I just I

673
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: don't want to know anymore.

674
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 2: Soon, something major did happen.

675
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: Not long after that, I got a phone call from

676
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: my dad saying that he had heard from a police

677
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: detective and that Megan was being investigated, this time for

678
00:36:58,800 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: her younger daughter.

679
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: The whole family was relieved. It felt like their nightmare

680
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: was about to finally come to an end, especially when

681
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: the police shared that they had video evidence of Megan

682
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 2: in a hospital room with her daughter.

683
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,959
Speaker 1: They caught her disposing of antiquagulant medication that her daughter

684
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: was supposed to get, like covering it on the bed sheets,

685
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: and then her daughter got a life threatening blood clot

686
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: and ended up in the PICEO. I think at that

687
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: point we thought, okay, like not in a vindictive way,

688
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: but they're going to get her.

689
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 3: Like they've got it. There's such strong evidence.

690
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: We've seen a copy of this police report. And the

691
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: investigation went on for two years. During this time, Megan

692
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: did not have custody of the children. The whole family

693
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: waited anxiously for updates on the case. Meanwhile, Andrea focused

694
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: on her career.

695
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 3: My third novel. We came here to forget published, and

696
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 3: that novel is based very heavily on my experiences with

697
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 3: my sister. And so I did press around the book,

698
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 3: like before the book came out. So this is the

699
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 3: first time that I'd ever publicly talked about my sister.

700
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 3: You know, I was very careful and guarded sort of

701
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 3: with what I said, you know. So I was talking

702
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 3: about that family connection and the lead up to this book.

703
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 3: And four days before the publication of that book, I

704
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: was on my way to a friend's wedding, was in

705
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 3: the car with my husband and one of my best friends,

706
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 3: and I got an email from my sister's attorney. It

707
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 3: was a ceased assist asking me to retract my statements

708
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 3: to Vanity Fair, canceled the publication of my book, canceled

709
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 3: my book to her a blah blah blah blah.

710
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 2: Meghan's lawyers called Andrea's work textbook defamation and alleged that

711
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 2: Andrea has a bizarre obsession with Megan. They said that

712
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: if Andrea insinuates in any way that her sister committed

713
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: Munchausen syndrome by proxy or medical child abuse, those statements

714
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: are false and they are defamatory, and at the end

715
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: of the season desist, Meghan's lawyer dropped a bombshell.

716
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: He included an excerpt from the family court judge who

717
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: had just returned custody of my sister's children to her.

718
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: So that is how I found out that information charges

719
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: were never filed against her. My later followed up with

720
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: that office to find out why in the face of

721
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: such strong evidence, including you know, like a medical record

722
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: review of these seventy three thousand pages of medical records

723
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 1: that my five year old niece had at that.

724
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: Time, the deputy prosecuting attorney on the case concluded that, quote,

725
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: we could not envision a way to prevail on criminal

726
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 2: charges at trial to the point where we can prove

727
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 2: beyond a reasonable doubt. Meghan went on to reach out

728
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 2: to local and national news outlets. She wanted to share

729
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 2: her side of the story, where, according to her, she

730
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: is repeatedly being falsely accused of medical child abuse. In

731
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 2: one interview, Meghan said, quote, I've always done everything in

732
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 2: my power to take care of my children, yet now

733
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: I was being treated with suspicion. Megan, cease and desist

734
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 2: didn't silence Andrea. Instead, it lit a fire under her

735
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 2: because she believes what her sister is doing is medical

736
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: child abuse.

737
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: And yeah, that is how I got here.

738
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: She started seeking out a community of people who understand Munchausen's.

739
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: During that time, I met doctor Mark Fieldman, who is

740
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 1: this tremendous expert who had become very close with who

741
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: is a psychiatrist who's been studying Munchausen by proxy for decades.

742
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: And then I became interested in how I could be

743
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: useful to this cause.

744
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: She went to a conference on Munchausen's hosted by the

745
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children, and there,

746
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 2: for the first time, she met other people who had

747
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: the same story as her family.

748
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 3: That was the first time I'd ever heard from another

749
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 3: family member who'd been through a case, and it's just

750
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 3: like completely changed the direction of my life and my career.

751
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: And the way she wanted to help was to tell

752
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 2: their stories.

753
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 3: I'm a storyteller. That's what I have skill set in.

754
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: Obviously at that time I was writing, but it's getting

755
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: interested in podcasting and just thought because I was a

756
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: big podcast listener and loved the medium and was like, oh,

757
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: this is a true crime podcast.

758
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: So in twenty twenty, she started developing a show of

759
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 2: her own.

760
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: By and large, like people don't know what this is.

761
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: They don't understand it. There's a lot of misconceptions. I

762
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: was like, well, this is something like I can be

763
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: helpful with. I know the media because I'm the publicist

764
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: or a writer. I can tell these stories. Didn't want

765
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: to present myself as some kind of like objective journalists

766
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: that's just like found this topic interesting, right, this'd be

767
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: totally disingenuous.

768
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 2: She started with one case that struck a chord.

769
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: One of the stories I really connected with as I

770
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: was learning that there were other stories right about this

771
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: was a Hope you Barra case because it had all

772
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: of these similarities to my family's case. In that Hope

773
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: you Bora had been this very intelligent, very promising woman,

774
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: and she also had this family that had been very

775
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: close and really took the same series of events where

776
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: like they you know, uncovered some of Hope's very large deceptions.

777
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 1: And then her mother became concerned about her granddaughter and

778
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 1: called one of the granddaughter's doctors.

779
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: Andrea saw strong parallels between Hope's case and Megan's.

780
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 1: Hope had also had a fake pregnancy. It had also

781
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: been twin girls. It was just these things where I

782
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: was like, are they talking to each other? I mean,

783
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: like just where you feel And I get this feeling

784
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 1: all the time, like gatecases, where you feel like there

785
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: is this just playbook right. The pattern of abuse is

786
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: so strong, the premature verse, the feeding interventions like this.

787
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 3: This strong, strong pattern. And so I felt so drawn

788
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 3: to this story.

789
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: And Hope's family was ready to tell their story too.

790
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: So I ended up interviewing, you know, her husband, Fabian,

791
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: and then her father Paul, her sister, her younger sister Robin,

792
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: the very very first interview I ever did, and then

793
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: her brother Nick. You know, we ended up going down

794
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: to Fort Worth to meet with their family, and I

795
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: just loved them so much. I mean, they were just

796
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 1: the sweetest people, and they clearly had really loved Hope,

797
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: and especially I mean, you know, talking to Robin, who

798
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: was the younger sister, just like that we'd had such

799
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: a similar experience. It was just an extraordinary kind of

800
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: journey to go on because you're just like, oh my god,

801
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 1: I've never talked to another person that's ever been through

802
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: anything like this, and then you're talking to a person

803
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: who's had the exact same experience.

804
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 3: It is profound.

805
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, Andrea launched her podcast Nobody Should

806
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 2: Believe Me.

807
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the show, to a hugely unexpected degree,

808
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: took off.

809
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: Andrea just finished her fifth season. Each season features a

810
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,479
Speaker 2: different family like hers, and her work didn't stay there.

811
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: I founded Munchausen Support, which is the only nonprofit in

812
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: the country that is dedicated specifically to supporting families and

813
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: survivors who are dealing with this abuse and also helping professionals.

814
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 2: After all the work she's done and the many years

815
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 2: that have gone by, she still hasn't reconnected with her sister. Meghan,

816
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: declined to comment for Andrea's podcast. In fact, Megan is

817
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 2: still talking to the media claiming that she's being falsely

818
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 2: accused of medical child abuse, and Andy is still sticking

819
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 2: by Megan's side. He says she does not have Munchausen's

820
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 2: by proxy. Andy regularly posts comments online dating that Andrea

821
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: is just playing the victim. He said that she's making

822
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: false claims and allegations for profit. But for Andrea, her

823
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 2: work was never about making a prophet. More than anything,

824
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 2: Andrea wants her work to reach her niece and nephew.

825
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 1: I think a lot about what my sister's future might

826
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: look like if her kids grew up leave, and certainly

827
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: I hope that someday I will hear from her children.

828
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,439
Speaker 1: I really did all of this because of them, and

829
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: part of what we're up to at Munchausen support and

830
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: building some kind of resources for survivors and really thinking

831
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: about ways in which we can help survivors is also

832
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 1: like I built that for them.

833
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: In February twenty twenty five, Andrea published her first nonfiction book.

834
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: It's called The Mother next Door. She wrote it with

835
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: Detective Mike Weber, a police investigator who spent his career

836
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 2: working on medical child abuse cases.

837
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 1: The book, I mean that actually is a more natural

838
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: medium for me because I am a writer written for novels,

839
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: and I loved being able to put the cases so

840
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: in context, put them in some cultural context, put them

841
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: in the context of like, this is a pattern, this

842
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 1: is a you know, this is a crime that like

843
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: you can recognize and name and teach people how to

844
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 1: deal with. And just being able to give some kind

845
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: of sort of proactive advice. And I think my message

846
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: I always want people to takeways that this can happen

847
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: to anyone. This is not race specific, this is not

848
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: class specific. This is something that happens, you know, in

849
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: other countries, and it oftentimes, you know, some of the

850
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 1: perpetrators seem like weirdos, but a lot of them seem

851
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: like really nice, normal moms.

852
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 3: She's like the mom on the PTA.

853
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: All of Andrea's work is guided by her understanding of

854
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 2: her sister and the impact she says it's had on

855
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: their family. After two investigations into Megan yielded no convictions,

856
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 2: that Dunlops are left only with their truth. There isn't

857
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 2: a clear next step for justice or action. So instead

858
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: Andrea is sharing the signs, exposing the patterns, and building

859
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: a community in hopes of making a change.

860
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: I have some sympathy for family members that get caught

861
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: up in this and end up supporting the perpetrators because

862
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: I've been there. I know how hard that is to

863
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: accept that someone you love is capable of this. Just

864
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: saying to accept that anybody is capable of this, I

865
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: think is so so hard. We're just all trying to

866
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: like chip away until there's like a sort of breaking

867
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: the damn moment. And so that's sort of how I

868
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: think about it, and just like every win, you hold

869
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: on to every win, if the show reaches someone that

870
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: needed to hear it that day, you know which I

871
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: know these things have happened because I just hear from

872
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: so many people and then they end up reporting or

873
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: trying to intervene, and it's not acceptable to remain in

874
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: denial because the person who suffers for that as the

875
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,439
Speaker 1: child who has no voice, who has no say, who

876
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: is depending on those family members to recognize it and

877
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: to intervene.

878
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 2: We end all of our episodes with the same question,

879
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: why do you want to tell your story?

880
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: I have a really strong core belief that stories are

881
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: the best way to learn and to move people on

882
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: an issue. There's so much noise and so much distraction,

883
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: and people are not convinced by evidence, they're not convinced

884
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 1: by facts, and we live in this time of too

885
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: much information. So I think like the human element of

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00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: a story is like, that's where we connect to things,

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00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: That's what cuts out the noise, and I think that

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00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: stories can help us feel less alone, and especially if

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00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 1: there's something whereas incredibly high taboo, there's a high degree

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00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: of shame, where it's this thing that's just in the darkness.

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00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 3: I think the only antidote to that is bringing it

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00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 3: to light.

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Speaker 2: Next week, we're bringing you another bonus episode with Andrea Dunlop.

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00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 2: This time it's a conversation between her and I about

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00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: true crime podcasting. It's a deep dive and I think

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00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 2: you're gonna like it. As you know, we're finished with

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00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: this season of Betrayal Weekly. We'll be back on May

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00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 2: twenty second with season four of Betrayal. It's a whole

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00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: new story told over a few weeks, just like Ashley's,

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00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 2: Jen and Stacy's. If you would like to reach out

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00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 2: to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your

902
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 2: Betrayal story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com.

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00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 2: That's Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. We're grateful for

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00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: your support. One way to show support is by subscribing

905
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 2: to our show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to

906
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 2: rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way.

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00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal

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00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass

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00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is

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00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 2: executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Hosted and

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00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 2: produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard,

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00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 2: also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Melcuriy

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00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 2: and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and

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00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing by mattel Vecchio, additional

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00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 2: editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver

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00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: Bain's music library provided by Mob Music and For more

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00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts,