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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a

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Speaker 2: podcast where me and my guests for this week, the

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Speaker 2: great Ben Bolan, are about to get targeted and murdered

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Speaker 2: by the Clinton crime family. Ben, how are you doing today? Finally, finally, Yes,

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Speaker 2: we've been we've lived in the dream dream.

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Speaker 3: Yes, here we go. Yeah, it's great to uh, it's

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Speaker 3: great to be back. It's great to hang out with you.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking of you and the team recently because

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Speaker 3: I don't know whether you were cold, Robert, but lo

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Speaker 3: these many years ago, when you were just beginning a

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Speaker 3: podcast called Behind the Bastards, you graced us with an

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Speaker 3: appearance a cameo dropped a hot sixteen on a show

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Speaker 3: we do called Ridiculous History. Yes, do you remember that?

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Speaker 2: I do remember that? Yes, about the governor of or

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Speaker 2: the founding the found one of the founders of Oregon.

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Speaker 3: If I'm not mistaken, you're right, Yes, how Oregon originated

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Speaker 3: as a supremacist. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well today we're not talking about that, although we

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Speaker 2: are talking about something where racism is involved. We're talking

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Speaker 2: about I wasn't entirely joking about the Clintons. They are

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Speaker 2: they are intricately involved in this story, or at least

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Speaker 2: Bill is. But Ben, what do you know about the

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Speaker 2: blood industry? Do you mean, like Ben Bowley, host of

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Speaker 2: stuff they don't want you to know, and ridiculous history

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Speaker 2: and a bunch of other stuff you mentioned one of them, Yes,

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Speaker 2: like as.

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Speaker 3: A fan or just the industry overall?

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Speaker 2: Are you're so? You are a fan of blood? You're

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Speaker 2: a big blood guy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what people say about Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean who doesn't. I enjoy having roughly five

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Speaker 2: leaders of blood in my body.

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Speaker 3: That's what everybody says about you.

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Speaker 2: Every every time I'm in or adjacent to a shooting,

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Speaker 2: I think, boy, it's great having all of my blood

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Speaker 2: still inside of me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I also love you know like any other any

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Speaker 3: other damn peer. I am a huge supporter of blood donations,

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Speaker 3: huge supporter.

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Speaker 2: Yes, uh. And that's what we're kind of talking about today,

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Speaker 2: because there's some there's some problem donating blood. There's this

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Speaker 2: great story that's going around because the fellow just died

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Speaker 2: of this, this lovely elderly Australian man who found out

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Speaker 2: that he had a rare blood factor that was crucial

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Speaker 2: in making a medicine that millions of babies needed to live,

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Speaker 2: so he just donated blood for like decades. Yeah, saving

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Speaker 2: like two and a half million babies. That's great. Donating blood.

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Speaker 2: Great blood as a commodity is what we're talking about here,

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Speaker 2: and there's some deeply problematic aspects of it. And I

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Speaker 2: wanted to start by saying, where do you think blood

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Speaker 2: lies on the list of US exports by value?

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Speaker 3: Ooh, by value, not by liquid weight?

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Speaker 2: Okay, our blood and blood products. How much chunk of

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Speaker 2: the US economy? Do you think that would be clever?

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Speaker 3: Clever question, Robert, because that would factor in things like plasma, right, yes,

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Speaker 3: of course, yes, okay, yes, so with that I would gosh,

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Speaker 3: it's a difficult question. It's a difficult question. I don't

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Speaker 3: know the answer.

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Speaker 2: It is the ninth largest export for the entire United States.

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Speaker 2: Holy shit, Yes, it beats. It beats like coal. Blood

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Speaker 2: is a massive industry in the United States. It is,

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Speaker 2: like again, it's one of our largest exports. Blood products

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Speaker 2: make up one point eight percent of all US exports,

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Speaker 2: which is up about half a percent from where it

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Speaker 2: was ten years ago. And blood exports are valued at

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Speaker 2: about thirty seven billion dollars. Like it's it's it's much larger.

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Speaker 2: I did not realize when I started how big A like,

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Speaker 2: that's a significant piece of the economy.

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Speaker 3: That's top ten.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. And here's the thing that's like shocking

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Speaker 2: when you just like I never would have thought of

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Speaker 2: if I had been asked to, like guess the ten

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Speaker 2: largest exports, blood wouldn't have been on my list. But

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Speaker 2: here's the thing. The United States provides seventy percent of

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Speaker 2: the blood plasma used worldwide to make medicine. That means, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: seventy percent of all blood plasma used on the planet

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Speaker 2: in medicine comes from here. We are the largest exporter

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Speaker 2: of blood products on the planet, and no one else

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Speaker 2: comes very close.

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Speaker 3: Go USA to an extent.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And this is one of those things where we're

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Speaker 2: talking about how messed up a lot of this industry is.

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Speaker 2: It's not like some messed up industries where it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: maybe we don't all need this product that the US

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Speaker 2: puts out, or maybe there's alternative to this product that

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Speaker 2: has harmful consequences. Everyone. Really, we do really need a

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Speaker 2: lot of blood and blood products. It's very important for medicine,

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Speaker 2: a crucial part of keeping people alive. So you can't deny.

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Speaker 2: It's not like there's no argument to be made that

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Speaker 2: we don't need to be producing all of this blood.

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Speaker 2: Somebody fucking has to the problem is that whenever you've

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Speaker 2: got an industry this big, you're going to find people

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Speaker 2: try to find ways to maximize their profits and minimize

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Speaker 2: their costs. And when you're talking about blood, that's going

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Speaker 2: to lead you to do some fucked up shit that

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Speaker 2: has some hideous consequences, right, yes, And that's that's the

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Speaker 2: story that we're telling today. This week's episode is going

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Speaker 2: to explain why and how a huge chunk of the

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Speaker 2: global blood economy came to rely, specifically on a bunch

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Speaker 2: of prison inmates in Arkansas, watched over by a handful

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Speaker 2: of Clinton associates who saw their job as basically a

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Speaker 2: bribe for political loyalty, and how this ultimately killed multiple

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Speaker 2: nine elephns worth of Kenans, English people, and other folks

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Speaker 2: around the planet. This is a dark story, and it's

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Speaker 2: all set in the Arkansas prison system, and it all

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Speaker 2: starts with this immutable fact, which is that human beings

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Speaker 2: die without blood. The average adult has about four to

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Speaker 2: five leaders of whole blood in their body at any

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Speaker 2: point in time, and while we've always known that like

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Speaker 2: you need blood, medical science has tended to focus throughout

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Speaker 2: most of history on like maybe people have too much blood,

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Speaker 2: maybe they have bad blood, and you got to like

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Speaker 2: add in good blood to replaced losses. It was a

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Speaker 2: messy process of figuring out like how blood works. And

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Speaker 2: the first blood transfusion as far as we know, was

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Speaker 2: attempted in sixteen twenty eight by an English physician. And

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Speaker 2: I say attempted because it did not work. And I

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Speaker 2: don't think that's a like it's it was a messy process,

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Speaker 2: you know, trying to figure out how to do this,

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Speaker 2: and they weren't always using human blood, right, because if

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Speaker 2: you're like an early in this period, it might not

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Speaker 2: make the logical thing, wouldn't be that like, well, obviously

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Speaker 2: a lamb's blood and a human's blood are fundamentally different

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Speaker 2: and we shouldn't be putting lambs blood into people. You

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Speaker 2: might not make that jump, right, It's just it all

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Speaker 2: just looks like blood to me, you know, just like

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Speaker 2: if you put like blood from somebody in somebody who

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Speaker 2: cannot take a donation from them, if you're dealing with sixteen,

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Speaker 2: you don't know about blood types, how would you, How

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Speaker 2: would that possibly be come to you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you should already get bonus points for recognizing the

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Speaker 3: blood exist.

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Speaker 2: Right. If you're aware that the problem is not too

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Speaker 2: much blood, you're doing very well in the sixteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: You're a great doctor in the sixteen hundreds. If your

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Speaker 2: immediate jump isn't just like, well, let's cut them and

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Speaker 2: drain a bunch of that shit out. This guy with

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Speaker 2: a sword wound probably has too much blood left at him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the problem. It's like, not only do you

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Speaker 3: have too much blood, but your humors are off dog

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Speaker 3: and you know what I mean. That's like the.

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Speaker 2: Balance is wrong. Yeah, you have to think about it.

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Speaker 2: Like if we took a bunch of computers back to

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Speaker 2: like nine hundred BC, and we showed them how to

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Speaker 2: use the computers but didn't explain anything about like how

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Speaker 2: they worked. People would probably be able to keep some

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Speaker 2: of those things going for a while, but their theories

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Speaker 2: about why different stuff worked would be wild.

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Speaker 3: Right, Like we have to we have to sacrifice a

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Speaker 3: certain amount of people.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, wait, the computer's demand blood.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes if the computer doesn't work, it's because there's too

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Speaker 3: much Blood's.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there would be a whole religion centered around getting

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Speaker 2: like Microsoft Outlook to work, and honestly, they might, they

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Speaker 2: might do a better job than we do because Microsoft

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Speaker 2: Outlook never works. Well, I mean, maybe human sacrifice is

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Speaker 2: the answer.

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Speaker 3: Pit Yeah, yeah, maybe we should look out for the

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Speaker 3: Outlook religion.

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Speaker 2: Mmmm, you know what I'm gonna get on that one? Uh,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna need I've been meaning they have like a

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Speaker 2: sacrificial knife made for me, So this this could in

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Speaker 2: well for everybody.

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Speaker 1: You don't You don't have that, Huh.

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Speaker 2: I have a sacrificial knife, but it's not nice enough

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Speaker 2: to fix Microsoft Outlook, Sophie.

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Speaker 3: Or do you just have a knife that has occasionally

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Speaker 3: been used for sacrifice?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, yeah, actually this one right.

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Speaker 4: Folks, Folks, Robert just did pull it up and why

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Speaker 4: you know it is to his right?

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Speaker 2: Keep it near me. You never know, you know my

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Speaker 2: motto a bs maybe always be sacrificing. You never you

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Speaker 2: never know when which god you know, Babylonian deities. There's

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Speaker 2: all sorts of gods out there that need blood.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: When I when I when I'm more recovered from surgery

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Speaker 1: and I'm back to filming, I gotta show everyone that

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Speaker 1: knife you got me as a surgery present.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a nice one. Yeah Ford bontempsky booie,

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Speaker 2: it's a really nice nice yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The kiwi's in the audience will be impressed. So we

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Speaker 2: didn't get blood transfusion right the first time, not for

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Speaker 2: a bit, not for a bit. But by sixteen fifty five,

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Speaker 2: a physician named Richard Lower had carried out the first

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Speaker 2: successful blood transfusion, not in humans but on dogs. He

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Speaker 2: is one of these like rare, much better than that,

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Speaker 2: where he's like, maybe we should just start by trying

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Speaker 2: to replace people's blood. I'm gonna work with ducks. See

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Speaker 2: if I can get that down.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: And two years later, a French physician and Richard Lower

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Speaker 2: separately carried out successful blood transfusions from lambs to human beings.

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Speaker 2: And I know, I just mentioned that that like isn't

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Speaker 2: a great idea, and it's not, but it does sort

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Speaker 2: of work sometimes, and it's the kind of thing you

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Speaker 2: will occasionally hear. You know, you can use coconut water

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Speaker 2: for blood transfusions because it's like sterile and it's the

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Speaker 2: electrolyte content. It's one of those things if you look

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Speaker 2: up like Snopes will say, no, this isn't true. I

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Speaker 2: found a scientific study where they did this. They used

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Speaker 2: it for an emergency transfusion. What's going on here? When

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Speaker 2: when using lambs or coconuts does work, It's not because again,

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Speaker 2: these are good replacements for blood. It's because sometimes when

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Speaker 2: people lose enough blood, the biggest thing is getting enough

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Speaker 2: like mass of something that's close enough in there so

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Speaker 2: that their body keeps working. There are like if you

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Speaker 2: use coconut water for transfusions because of like I think

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Speaker 2: the amount of potassite is one problem, there are a

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Speaker 2: horrible additional health conflicts it can cause. And the same

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Speaker 2: is true of lambs blood. But if someone is like

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Speaker 2: going to immediately die because they don't have enough blood,

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Speaker 2: sometimes this has been done in order to save them, right,

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Speaker 2: But it's not a good idea if there's other options.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, once they started using lamb's blood, it

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Speaker 2: became very quickly clear that like people also die because

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Speaker 2: of the consequences of shooting them full of lamb's blood.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's also like you know, a modern comparison, Robert

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Speaker 3: might be uh, the idea of heart transplants right with

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Speaker 3: non human organs, right, not right, not to get too

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Speaker 3: far ahead, but like that's that's that's uh, that's a

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Speaker 3: situation where a current human technology can sort of band

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Speaker 3: aid you. You might make it, you know, a year

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Speaker 3: or so. It's not a it's not an actual facts

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Speaker 3: human heart. Just like it reminds me of and I

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Speaker 3: don't I don't know enough to speak off expertise here,

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Speaker 3: but it reminds me of like that old trick with uh,

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Speaker 3: with elderly cars, I'll call them vintage cars, where if

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Speaker 3: the radiator is fucking up, you can put you can

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Speaker 3: put a couple things in to just keep the radiator

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Speaker 3: going until you get to the gas station. So maybe

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Speaker 3: the lambs blood thing is like that.

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Speaker 2: It is a little and it's it's also this thing

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Speaker 2: in like emergency medicine, where like there's certain things you're

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Speaker 2: never supposed to do, like use an AED on an

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Speaker 2: infant that also like people do because in the instance

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Speaker 2: in which you would be doing it, the infant is dead,

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Speaker 2: so you can't make it worse. Right, And like when

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Speaker 2: we're talking about like where the origin of this of

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Speaker 2: the coconut water thing is, it was at least one

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Speaker 2: of the stories you'll here is that it was like

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Speaker 2: during like World War two, and like they had they

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Speaker 2: didn't have enough blood, and they just kind of tried something.

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Speaker 2: And so like occasionally stuff that's not blood or not

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Speaker 2: human blood can be used in a way that we'll

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Speaker 2: deal with the immediate problem, but again always causes a

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Speaker 2: bunch of additional problems because it's not supposed to be

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Speaker 2: in there, right.

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Speaker 3: Right, right, Quick question though, quick question, Yeah, what Robert,

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Speaker 3: if you're imagining it and Sophie as well, this World

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Speaker 3: War two doctor who stumbled upon coconut water bandating blood

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Speaker 3: or the circular, if that's.

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Speaker 2: How it happened, it is a little unclear, but yeah.

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Speaker 3: If that is how it happened, Yeah, what do you imagine,

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Speaker 3: Like if their hand is going over a table with

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Speaker 3: all sorts of other shit on it, what else did

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Speaker 3: they look at first?

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Speaker 2: What do you think, Yeah, given the state of things

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Speaker 2: at the time, straight liquor, what if we just put

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Speaker 2: some jim bean in there? Well, that saved their lives.

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Speaker 3: And they're like, no, we're saving the No, we're saving

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Speaker 3: the liquor for the guys who aren't bleeding out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we need all of that jim bean. We are fighting,

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Speaker 2: We are island topping fighting the Empire of Japan. Nobody

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Speaker 2: wants to sleep sober at night. Give him some coconut

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Speaker 2: water or some shit. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. So.

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Speaker 2: The first human to human blood transfusion occurs in Philadelphia

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Speaker 2: seventeen ninety five, although the doctor who does it doesn't publish,

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Speaker 2: and so the first successful transfusion is like generally listed

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Speaker 2: as eighteen eighteen. It was by a British doctor treating

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Speaker 2: a postpartum hemorrhage, and the science kind of develops from there.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that becomes clear is that in

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Speaker 2: a lot of instances when people need a transfusion, they

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Speaker 2: don't need whole blood. Right Initially, they're starting out with

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Speaker 2: whole blood, and people find out over decades and stuff

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Speaker 2: that actually you can take different elements of blood and

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Speaker 2: kind of add in a substitute, and exaline is usually

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Speaker 2: used and do infusions of that for certain problems. Milk

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Speaker 2: is actually one of the infusion substitutes. But this is

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Speaker 2: again horrible for people. Don't shoot milk. It to people,

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Speaker 2: milk does not belong in your blood sounds like big

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Speaker 2: day to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure the

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Speaker 2: fucking dairy companies were like fighting for fighting like hell

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Speaker 2: to have that be the case. So it's what for,

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Speaker 2: it's what's in your blood there it is. Yeah. So

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Speaker 2: over the next decades we figure out shit like blood

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Speaker 2: types and we start messing around a lot with plasma,

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Speaker 2: which is a component of blood that can used to

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Speaker 2: make a whole bunch of different medications that will save

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Speaker 2: your life. One of the best known uses of blood

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Speaker 2: plasma is the manufacture of clotting agents in order to

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Speaker 2: save and improve the lives of hemophiliacs. These are people

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Speaker 2: who like, if they start bleeding, they just kind of

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Speaker 2: keep bleeding. Their blood doesn't have the thing that is

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Speaker 2: like all right, we've bled enough time to scab, you know,

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Speaker 2: no breaks all gas, no breaks with the bleeding. And

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Speaker 2: the first of these medications hits in like the nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 2: and they more than double the life expectancy of hemophiliacs.

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Speaker 2: As far as like single medical interventions go, this is

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Speaker 2: like one of the big ones in terms of stopping

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Speaker 2: like improving quality of life and length of life. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: I'm not an MD or a scientist, but here's how

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Speaker 2: An article in the William and Mary Business Law Review

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Speaker 2: by Sophia Chase describes the process of making this life

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Speaker 2: saving medication using plasma. After blood is collected, it is

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Speaker 2: spun off through plasma pheresis, and its component parts are

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Speaker 2: used for different purposes. The plast of thousands of donors

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Speaker 2: is pulled together to create factor concentrates that form a

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Speaker 2: blood product known as factor eight used to medicate hemophiliacs.

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Speaker 2: Depending on the severity of the disease, ahemophiliac might need

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Speaker 2: to use factor eight seven times or several times a week.

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Speaker 2: This means essentially that people who are already ill with

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Speaker 2: a life threatening disease and a compromised immune system have

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Speaker 2: no alternative but to inject themselves with plasma hundreds of

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Speaker 2: times a year. There's a degree to which this is

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Speaker 2: a little like a diabetic who needs insulin, right. This

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Speaker 2: is a medication that you need constantly, right, in order

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Speaker 2: to not die. That's it. You know, the fact that

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Speaker 2: this is available is great, but without blood transfusions and

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Speaker 2: all of the medicines. You know, it's one of those

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Speaker 2: things where like, because we developed this, there's a shitload

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Speaker 2: of people you know who are alive today, whether it's

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Speaker 2: because they bled out, because they were a soldier who

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Speaker 2: got shot, or like a random person who was in

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Speaker 2: like a car accident, got shot, or whether there's somebody

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Speaker 2: with myphelia or one of a number of diseases and disorder,

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Speaker 2: or one of their parents. You know, people who are

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Speaker 2: alive because of this branch of science. Right, It's incredibly

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00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 2: important stuff that we figured out. Largely the problem is

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Speaker 2: that while I don't think a single doctor would argue

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Speaker 2: that access to blood and blood products is a cornerstone

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Speaker 2: of modern medicine, there is never enough of the shit.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely never, at no point have we ever had a

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Speaker 2: sufficient supply of blood and blood products. Yeah, and capitalism

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Speaker 2: being what it is, the market has responded by making

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Speaker 2: blood and blood products wildly valuable. In nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 2: a barrel of crude oil was worth about thirteen dollars.

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Speaker 2: A similar quantity of human blood was worth twenty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: But that's whole blood. If you took that drawn blood,

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Speaker 2: that as whole blood is worth about twenty grand for

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Speaker 2: a barrel, and separated it into plasma and the other

346
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Speaker 2: different blood products that are used in medicine, you could

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Speaker 2: get more like sixty seven thousand dollars in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: eight dollars off of that barrel.

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Speaker 3: Oh like if you if you steal a Honda Civic,

350
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Speaker 3: you make money.

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Speaker 2: Sully exactly exactly. But you know Ben that that gets

352
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 2: into our very successful business, uh taking catalytic converters, which,

353
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Speaker 2: by the way, folks, if you need rare earth minerals,

354
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,639
Speaker 2: Ben and I are selling them whole fail. You just

355
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,439
Speaker 2: get a sack of cats delivered to your door. You

356
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 2: know which is.

357
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Speaker 3: The new up and coming We call it kiddo currency.

358
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 3: It is Evans and Bowlin's. That's right, Sophie Raye Production.

359
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,720
Speaker 3: We're limited liability companies, so don't try to come at us.

360
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 3: Don't even try.

361
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Speaker 2: Once the dollar crashes and once crypto crashes, the only

362
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: currency is going to be catalytic converters. You'll be walking

363
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 2: around with a wallet full of them. And you know what,

364
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 2: we're all going to get very strong because they are

365
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 2: not light.

366
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 3: They are not light. You should this is going to

367
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:56,879
Speaker 3: be great for our lats.

368
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 2: You need to start doing the wholes thing and carry

369
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 2: like a baby cow up a mountain now or a

370
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,360
Speaker 2: pin or whatever it was in that book, so that

371
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,920
Speaker 2: you can be strong enough to bring grocery money with you.

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Speaker 3: You know what's amazing about this is somebody one of

373
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,120
Speaker 3: us is listening right now and is doing the fireman

374
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 3: carry down the goat, and they're like, I'm fucking ahead, I'm.

375
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 2: Ready, I'm ready, And several other people are listening on

376
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Speaker 2: their earbuds as they saw someone's cat from the bottom

377
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Speaker 2: of a prians.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, anyway, I bring that up just to say that, like,

380
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 2: there's a lot of money in this, and wherever there's

381
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 2: a lot of money in the raw amount of blood,

382
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,919
Speaker 2: there will be an incentive for people to do one

383
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 2: ethical things to get that blood because there's never just

384
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 2: enough donations. Now, there's some reasons for that, some of

385
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 2: which is the problem of the different organizations responsible for

386
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,119
Speaker 2: drawing blood. We could talk about the fact that queer

387
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 2: people are still generally forbidden in many cases from donating

388
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,199
Speaker 2: blood because of the AID scare or the AIDS epidemic.

389
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,679
Speaker 2: We could talk you know, there's a number of like critiques.

390
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 2: But even if you were to solve for those problems,

391
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 2: there's still never going to be enough of this stuff.

392
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 2: I don't know how we fix it until we can

393
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 2: start like just growing, you know, functional blood in a lab,

394
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 2: which is a thing people are trying to figure out.

395
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 2: But from the beginning, the main problem with blood for

396
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,159
Speaker 2: transfusions in medicine has been that you can only really

397
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,199
Speaker 2: get it. I know, there's those crabs that we can

398
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 2: use for some things, but as general rule, you only

399
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 2: get it from people, and people are very attached to

400
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 2: their blood and they're not always able to donate. There's

401
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,159
Speaker 2: a cost. And it's not that bad, right donating. If

402
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 2: you've donated, I've donated, I'm sure you have. It's not

403
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,199
Speaker 2: like horrible, but like it's not nothing donating like it

404
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 2: hasn't you were aware that you gave up some of

405
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 2: your very important blood afterwards, Yeah.

406
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 3: The orange juice and the crackers don't quite get you

407
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 3: back to a hype or set. I think it was

408
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 3: something like pre pandemic, I want to say. Still a

409
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 3: very small amount of people in the US donato.

410
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 2: Yes, and it's it's great to donate, But there's also

411
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,479
Speaker 2: another problem with that has nothing to do with this,

412
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: which is that people the kind of people who you

413
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 2: need to donate blood have blood born illnesses sometimes and

414
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 2: often they're aware of it, but often they aren't, and

415
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 2: blood born illnesses travel extremely easily through donated blood products.

416
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Speaker 2: Remember what I said. When you are making factor ate

417
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: to give to HEEMOPHILIAX, you were taking thousands of people's

418
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: blood plasma and mixing it together.

419
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Speaker 3: Group project.

420
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 2: It's a group project. And if say there's I'm throwing

421
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 2: the number out of my ass here, get we'll get

422
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 2: more exact. But say there's twenty thousand different people's plasma

423
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 2: comes into making a match a factor eight. If one

424
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 2: of those people has a blood born illness, that whole

425
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 2: batch can get tainted. It just takes one. That doesn't

426
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,199
Speaker 2: mean everyone who gets you know, medicated from it, but

427
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 2: it means that anyone could potentially right, It's kind of

428
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 2: the same with like fentanyl. You've got like a shitload

429
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 2: of like you know, whatever powdered drug and a little

430
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 2: bit of fentanyl gets in there. Everyone who does that

431
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 2: drug might not get enough for it to matter, but

432
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 2: someone could get a hot dose and then they're dead.

433
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 1: Right.

434
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 2: That's kind of how tainted blood works. And so this

435
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 2: is a problem and part because again there's not enough blood.

436
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 2: So if one person gets through because they weren't screened properly,

437
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 2: you can ruin a bunch of that incredibly precious blood.

438
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 2: And it was an even bigger problem back before, where

439
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,239
Speaker 2: our methods of testing for shit like hepatitis were as

440
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 2: good as they are, because you didn't know what the

441
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: fuck was getting into the blood supply, right, and so

442
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 2: the odds of recipients getting sick from infected blood in

443
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: the past was a lot higher. And the other issue

444
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 2: here is that whole blood donations, if those are tainted,

445
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 2: are still less likely to get you sick than blood

446
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: product donations. So plasma that is tainted is likelier to

447
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 2: get you sick than whole blood that's tainted. That's the

448
00:23:59,000 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: way it works.

449
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so it's like maybe a concentration of those

450
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 3: vectors something like that. Yeah. The further I say this,

451
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 3: the dumber elseund.

452
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know why, but this is what this

453
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: is what the medical paperwork says, is that blood products

454
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: that you, when those are used on you, it is

455
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: if they're tainted, they're likely to spread disease than whole blood.

456
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 3: And this exists in a profit seeking environment.

457
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: And this exists in a profit where there's a fuck

458
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,719
Speaker 2: of billions on the table. Now you're probably aware of

459
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 2: how HIV would really cause some problems for the blood

460
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 2: donation industry, right because first off, they didn't initially know

461
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: it was a thing, so no one was checking for

462
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: this stuff during the early days when it was spreading.

463
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: And in that initial outbreak a bunch of hemophiliacs caught

464
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: HIV through their transfusions and got sick and died. But

465
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 2: before and during HIV those it was still never the

466
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: most common illness read through blood donations. The most common

467
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: illness is spread through blood and blood you know product

468
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: donations are hepatitis A, B, and C. And we have

469
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: been aware that hepatitis was a danger for this kind

470
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 2: of stuff for a long time, but hepatitis C we

471
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: couldn't detect it until nineteen ninety eight, and we couldn't

472
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 2: detect people, and we couldn't detect it in blood products

473
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 2: until nineteen ninety two. So like we've only very recently

474
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: been able to actually like monitor people's blood to see

475
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: if they had it, and even more recently than that

476
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 2: be able to check blood products to see if they

477
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: were clean from it. So what you got if we're

478
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 2: talking about like the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, is

479
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: a supply of something crucial that is inherently limited. And

480
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 2: you know, part of the issue here is that when

481
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 2: we're talking about the international blood trade, if you've got

482
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 2: a country with endemic hepatitis right of some sort, they're

483
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: going to need to bring in blood from other countries

484
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 2: because their ability to get enough clean blood on their

485
00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: own before you can test for all of this stuff,

486
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 2: property is going to be effectively nil, and they're going

487
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: to need, as a general rule, are blood right. And

488
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: because people don't like giving blood, you're going to have

489
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 2: to pay donors, and because corporations like to maximize profits,

490
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: they want to pay as little as possible. And I

491
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: think we're starting to see where the problems come in

492
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 2: here right now. The first wave of blood products hits

493
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 2: the United States in the sixties, an oversight and regulation

494
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 2: of the blood industry is basically non existent. At this point. Many,

495
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: if not most, paid donors are IVY drug users, the homeless,

496
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: and prisoners, all groups of people with a much higher

497
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 2: rate of blood born illnesses than the general population or

498
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:46,959
Speaker 2: the volunteer donor population. Because the need is inelastic, different

499
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: states start experimenting with blood shield laws, which exempt blood

500
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: suppliers from what is called strict liability. As Sofia Chase explains.

501
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: This meant that, despite providing an incredibly risky product, the

502
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: business did not need to worry about the possibility of

503
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: many expensive lawsuits. The large donor population, the lack supervision,

504
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: and the diminished threat of litigation resulted in the United

505
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: States becoming the premier producer of blood and plasma products.

506
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: So we become the largest world producer blood and plasma

507
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: in part because we're like, hey, if somebody gets sick

508
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: because you didn't do your due diligence to make sure

509
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: this stuff's safe, that ain't on you. We need the

510
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: blood this badly, get it.

511
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 3: However, you know, yeah, like our uh, like our ongoing

512
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: quite successful bag of catalytic converters business exactly exact limited liability, limited.

513
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 2: Liability because you yeah, exactly. You know, why would we

514
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 2: be liable for what happens to people's cars. They're not

515
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: our cars. Speaking of cars, yeah, you know what you

516
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: should buy is if a car is advertised next that

517
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: otherwise whatever else and we're back.

518
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 3: So.

519
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: In the late nineteen sixties, a researcher named Richard Titmus

520
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: concluded that paying donors made people likelier to lie about

521
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: their medical history. Right from the beginning. Because there's not

522
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 2: enough volunteers. You are paying for most of this stuff,

523
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: and research shows that people will pretend they don't have

524
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 2: the risk factors or just lie about outright having a

525
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 2: blood born illness because they're desperate for money, right, because

526
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 2: people need money to live. He wrote that ultimately, quote

527
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: this paid donations results in situations in which proportionally more

528
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: and more blood is supplied by the poor, the unskilled,

529
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: the unemployed, and other low income groups and categories of

530
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: exploited human populations of high blood yielders. Redistribution of blood

531
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: and blood products from the poor to the rich appears

532
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: to be one of the dominant effects of the American

533
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: blood banking systems. So not only is this our ninth

534
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: largest export tens of billions of dollars, it is an

535
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: industry where the blood comes from poor people and an

536
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: overwhelming amount of it goes those two people who are

537
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: more affluent, because obviously they're able to pay for better

538
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: medical care. We are mining. This is a vampiric system

539
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 2: where the poor are having their blood taken and given

540
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: often to people who are more affluent to them. Right,

541
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: that's a big part of the blood industry, especially in

542
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 2: this period. And another big part of it is that

543
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: because those exploited people desperately need the money, they may

544
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: not tell you if they just shot up heroin, right,

545
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: you know.

546
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 3: Or if someone had previously donated right one institution.

547
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: Right, yes, yes, and there's a lot of in these companies.

548
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: We'll just destroy some records or whatever right now, following

549
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 2: the advice that tit Mus gave because he's again like,

550
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: this is a really deeply problematic system and maybe we

551
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: shouldn't be paying for blood donations because it inherently causes problems.

552
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: If this advice had been followed, it would have destroyed

553
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: the blood plasma industry in particular. So they just.

554
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 3: Ignored money industry, right, the.

555
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: Blood money, Yes, yes, so they don't. They just ignore

556
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: what this guy says, and in fact, they do worse

557
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: to ignore him. They continue to explore more and more

558
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: exploited segments of the populace to buy blood from. Of course,

559
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: homeless people, street level sex workers, people who are using

560
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: IV drugs, those are all. Those are all people who

561
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,479
Speaker 2: are desperate for cash and will do anything to get it.

562
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: But you know what group of people are hardest up

563
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: be incarcerated?

564
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: Ah, the people who are loophole enslaved in this country.

565
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, And you know there are several things,

566
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: including the thirteenth Amendment, as you stated, that make incarcerated

567
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: people the ideal source of raw blood for America's blood merchants.

568
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: The US has by this point designated blood a vital resource,

569
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 2: which means the government has streamlined regulations to ensure a

570
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: sufficient supply. This meant that if you set up a

571
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: plasma donation center a collection point in a prison, there

572
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: is no mandated oversight.

573
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 3: Right.

574
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: The FDA is basically not involving themselves, right, at least

575
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: not initially, which means that in as long as this

576
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: stays a scarce product, drug companies are allowed to buy

577
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: their blood from quote unlicensed, uninspected vendors. In other words,

578
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: the drug companies who are buy because it's not the

579
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 2: drug companies making these collection points, it's other companies. And

580
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: because this is so scarce, if you're buying blood, you

581
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: don't have to like say, and I got it from

582
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: these people who have a license to get blood and

583
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: proving that they follow all these You can just buy

584
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: it from whomever guy comes to your door with a

585
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: sack of blood. You can just purchase that.

586
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 3: The days of stray blood are oom. That's right. Yeah,

587
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: that was the that's what we're aspiring towards. Yeah, I

588
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: hate that we have to we have to bring this up.

589
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: Another thing going into this. If we are counting something,

590
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 3: we being human civilization as a vital resource such that

591
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 3: we're going to cut some.

592
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: Corners or to get enough of it, sure, yeah.

593
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 3: Dude, diligence, then we're also going to oh, we already

594
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 3: did it. We already cut the corners on liability or responsibility.

595
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: I don't know, man, I just Robert, you know, I'm

596
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 3: a fan of the show. I don't want to spoil it,

597
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: but it doesn't sound like this ends well. I thought

598
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 3: maybe this would be the one happy episode.

599
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I will say the system doesn't work

600
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: this way in every extent. Now, Like there's still a

601
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: lot of issues with the blood system, but a lot

602
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: like things do get better as a result of all

603
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: of the people who are going to die, right, I'm

604
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: talking about the way it was in like the seventies

605
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: and stuff.

606
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

607
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: Now that said, it's still there's a lot of issues

608
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: and also a lot of problems with like the way

609
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: in which blood donation is conducted. I'm not saying that

610
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: there's not, but this is when we're talking about this,

611
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: this program at its worst.

612
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, because these people have the incarcerated in the US

613
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 3: penal system very little recourse towards towards any alternative. Right.

614
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 3: These are also the days of benighted experiments on yes.

615
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: Means yes, and all of that is going down. And

616
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: the fact that, like in terms of the companies who

617
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: need blood, they're looking at prison pop This is the

618
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: ideal donor base because number one, the prison population is

619
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: fairly stable. A lot of these guys are in there

620
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,959
Speaker 2: for years or decades. You can rely on them. And

621
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: the need the prisoner's need for cash is also stable.

622
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: This makes for an extremely predictable flow of product, and

623
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: businesses thrive when things are predictable. From the early days

624
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: of experimentation in this field, there had been data that

625
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: doing this was dangerous. In nineteen sixty nine, The New

626
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: York Times published a story about several deaths tied to

627
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: prison derived plasma products. In nineteen seventy, they followed it

628
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 2: up with an article describing prison plasma donation as transfusion roulette.

629
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy After seventy four, after several more well

630
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: publicized blood disasters, the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare

631
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: published our first national blood policy. It recommended that only

632
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: volunteers be allowed to give blood, because again, there's so

633
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: many problems with paying people. In nineteen eighty two, the

634
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 2: FDA made a non binding requests that blood donated by

635
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: prison inmates not be purchased or sold for domestic consumptions.

636
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: So in nineteen eighty two, the FDA is like, we

637
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: shouldn't use domestically any of the blood that we pay

638
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: inmates for. Now. Crucially, they're not saying don't pay inmates

639
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 2: for blood. They're saying, don't use.

640
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 3: It here right right. And further, come on, let's spend

641
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 3: a little time just scratching behind the ears of statements

642
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 3: like non binding. Yeah, come on, pinky is for me,

643
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 3: you guys, Like, let's pinky swear just not here, right,

644
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 3: just somewhere else, like somewhere else.

645
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: So it's not our problem.

646
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 3: The earlier laws regarding us produced propaganda, for instance, right right,

647
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 3: Oh geez, well this don't do it sound yeah, don't

648
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: do it here, don't you know? It's like it's like

649
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 3: the shitty stepdad yeah, about smoking cigarettes. Yeah, just don't

650
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 3: do it. Well, you know, I can see it all right.

651
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: I don't want to tell you Mama smelled it.

652
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yes. The FDA is definitely in its shitty

653
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: Stepdad era here. So the industry doesn't stop taking incarcerated

654
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: people's blood, and in fact, the FDA keeps issuing licenses

655
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: to export blood to Prisma plasmas prison plasma centers in

656
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: several states. These included Nevada, Tennessee, Louisiana, Arizona, Missouri, and

657
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: the focus of our episodes this Week, Arkansas. In nineteen seventy,

658
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 2: an Arkansas District court had ruled that several practices at

659
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: Cummins Prison and Grady, Arkansas were cruel and unusual violations

660
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 2: of the eighth and fourteen Amendments. One nineteen sixty nine

661
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 2: description of conditions and Cummings said this, many of the

662
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: inmates psychopathic and sociopathic. Some of them again this is

663
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine. Some of them are aggressive homosexuals. Many

664
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: of the inmates are hardened criminals, and some of them

665
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: are extremely dangerous to society in general, to their keepers

666
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: and to fellow inmates. Many of them are lingerers and

667
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 2: will go to any lengths to avoid work. Many are

668
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: prone to destroy state property, even items designed for their

669
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: welfare and comforts. This is how they're writing about these

670
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: people who are going to become the core of this

671
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: blood donation system for one very good reason, which is

672
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: that Arkansas prisons don't allow inmates to work for money,

673
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: So the blood donation program is going to become the

674
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 2: only way Arkansas prison inmates can get cash. In nineteen

675
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 2: seventy eight, the US Supreme Court had found that Arkansas's

676
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: solitary confinement tradition was unconstitutional. Justice John Paul Stevens described

677
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: the prison system in Arkansas as quote a dark and

678
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: evil world, and another federal judge described the people who

679
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 2: ran Arkansas's prison system as evil men. These are federal judges,

680
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 2: one of them is Supreme Court justice. Looking at it,

681
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: it'd be like, wow, this is like mortor this is

682
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: but I'm a federal judge in the sixties and this

683
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: is bad your seventies.

684
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 3: Well still I at someone in that level of the

685
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: judiciary at that time. Yeah, probably they've probably got their

686
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: own you know, crimes some shit. Yeah, yeah, they got

687
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 3: that seven league. It's stare.

688
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: You know, when you see a federal judge using a

689
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: language that you would expect from like some nineteen year old,

690
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 2: like anarchist protester at like an anti prison rally, Like

691
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: the conditions must be nightmarish. Right, John Paul Stevens is

692
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: calling the people running this system evil, like, cannot cannot

693
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 2: exaggerate how bad it is. It's like when you hear

694
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: the SS punished a guy for committing war crimes. It's like,

695
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: oh my god, Wow, it's too far. You know what

696
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 2: you do.

697
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 3: It's like it's like here in Atlanta, you might hang out,

698
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 3: you know, in various Uh well, i'll see it if

699
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 3: someone is too hard into uh crack cocaine or methamphetamine

700
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 3: and you know that person, and they tell you not

701
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 3: to hang out with wild Jimmy. You don't hang out

702
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 3: with wild Do.

703
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: Not hang out with Wild Jimmy.

704
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 3: But yeah, but this shows us, this shows us the

705
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 3: extent of the problem. And perhaps it shows us that

706
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: the money moved despite observations of right would have been

707
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 3: the rule of law?

708
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: Right, yes, well, what was the recommendation of law? Can

709
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: they never make a rule against this?

710
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 3: Oh it's non binding, sorry.

711
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: Right, the pinky swear of law and the other thing

712
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: is that because this is right, right when those the

713
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: Supreme Court is like, yeah, this is an evil system

714
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: run by evil men. That is right when the program

715
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 2: of taking blood from these prisoners is about to start. Right,

716
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: So this is just you've got a prison system where

717
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: inmates are not allowed to make money any other way.

718
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: That is already an evil nightmare. And into this situation

719
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy eight steps a new govenor, William Jefferson Clinton, Right,

720
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: that is his first urnament office, and he's got a

721
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: lot of exciting plans for how he wants to reform

722
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 2: things in one of the poor est states in the Union.

723
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 2: And he's also got a lot of good friends who

724
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: had helped him win election and who he owed some favors.

725
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: Both of these things are going to come together in

726
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 2: the ambition of several men to make Arkansas prisons a

727
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 2: major hub for blood product exports. And all of this

728
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: is going to be done. These are all Arkansas prisons

729
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: that are donating, but the hub for donation is Cummins Prison, Right,

730
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: They're sending people there to give donations. That's where the

731
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 2: actual because they build a lab there. Right, you have

732
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: to have some equipment to do this and again, yeah,

733
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: because there's like, you know, you've got this perfect stable

734
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: supplier position who have no other way to make money.

735
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: It's just great place to do this. Now. A few

736
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: years before Clinton came into office, a doctor named Bud

737
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 2: Henderson had formed a company called Health Education Consultants. They

738
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: did well, and he hired a banker named Leonard Dunn

739
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: from Little Rock to run business operations. Eventually, in nineteen

740
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 2: seventy eight, they'd renamed themselves HMA and jumped into the

741
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 2: prison plasma business with both feet. Henderson had gotten tight

742
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 2: with the medical director at the state Presence prison system,

743
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: John Bias, right byus, and so he managedes negotiate a

744
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: contract to manage both the plasma program and the clinics

745
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 2: at all state prisons. Right, So you've got this private

746
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: company by a doctor Bud Henderson, and he's got this

747
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: banker Leonard Dunn eventually helping him out. He talks John

748
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: Bias into giving him the contract to do all of

749
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 2: the healthcare, including plasma donation, for the whole Arkansas prison system.

750
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: This makes Arkansas the only state with a prison medical

751
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: program run by a a for profit company. Right, that's

752
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: where this starts. And I'm gonna quote from an article

753
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: by Susie Parker and Salon here. Susie Parker is an

754
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: Arkansas investigative journalist. Bias and Henderson say the motive for

755
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: the plasma program was twofold. The inmates needed money to

756
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 2: buy gum and toiletries, and the destitute prison system needed

757
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: medical equipment. Arkansas is also one of the only states

758
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 2: that refuses to play prisoners for their labor. Each unit

759
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 2: of plasma was sold by Hma, which was running the

760
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 2: program under the prison's FDA license, for at least fifty dollars,

761
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 2: and half was handed over to the prison system. With

762
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: hundreds of prisoners notnating once sometimes twice a week, Plasma

763
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 2: became a profitable enterprise, and in fact, in short order,

764
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: the profits from blood plasma sales turn Arkansas prisons from

765
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,479
Speaker 2: a line item in the state budget to a net

766
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: profit enterprise. Because of this program, prisons become profitable in

767
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: Arkansas right to the state.

768
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 3: Cut some cuts to Governor Clinton doing a six saxophone rate.

769
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we get just blazon on the right to bleed.

770
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 2: That is what they call it. That's literally the term.

771
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: So as we all know, once the profit motive becomes

772
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: the governing concern over say, human welfare, people consider some

773
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 2: dark things. One of the doctors who worked at Cummen's

774
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 2: Prison during this time was a guy named Mike Gouster.

775
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: He started in nineteen seventy nine, just as the program

776
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: got off the ground, and he has since made some

777
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: terrible allegations. Quote. I could see prisoners were being given

778
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: ilegal narcotics. Several indicated that this was how they were

779
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: being paid for their plasma. And so guards are being

780
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: pressured to sign up prisoners to donate. I think there's

781
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 2: some evidence guards are getting kickbacks, you know, there's some incentive.

782
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: And also drugs are always in prisons. But there's only

783
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: one way drugs get into prisons because prisoners can't leave, right,

784
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 2: it's guards, right, Like that's so.

785
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 3: I thought you were going to be fun about it,

786
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 3: but no, you're right.

787
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 2: No, no, that like that's the way this works. And

788
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,919
Speaker 2: this is one of the things that has happened, that's happening.

789
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 2: It's not just guards giving drugs. A lot of prisoners

790
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 2: who want the money they get from donating to buy

791
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: drugs because it's prison and drugs make it suck less.

792
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 3: Right, anything can be currency.

793
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, anything can be currency, right, And there's also some

794
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 2: evidence that like some of the prisoners are getting drugs

795
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: from like the clinics, right, Like they're getting painkillers and shit,

796
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: which are a lot easier to come by then, right,

797
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: So even in that case, it's effectively free, right for

798
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 2: the people bribing these drugs. There's at least one case

799
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 2: here that we know of a reguard taking kickbacks from

800
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 2: prisoners who had been rejected from the program because they

801
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 2: had blood borne illnesses, uh, and letting them donate because

802
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: they needed drug money. There's like evidence that people falsifying

803
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: data to let people who knowingly had tainted blood continue

804
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 2: to give it.

805
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 3: Right despite despite clearly provably having something like through hi

806
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 3: et cetera.

807
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: We have we have we know this happened with the

808
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: doc documented time, and it's happening a lot more than

809
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: that one time, right you know. Yeah, this because this

810
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: guy's going to become one of like the couple of

811
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: people that they try to use escapegoats later. Now, state

812
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: investigators later confirmed Gulfster's allegations that prison employees traded drugs

813
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 2: for blood. This doctor also observed that many inmate donors

814
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: he saw quote appear jaundiced and very sick. Quote When

815
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 2: I would ask if they had just had a blood test,

816
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: they would say, no, I've just given plasma. It was

817
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: clear they were sick. Now, to save costs, this max

818
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 2: it even worse again. They want this prison as cheap

819
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 2: as possible. It's a big lion item if you're doing

820
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: blood donations. Boy, you know how expensive needles are here,

821
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: supposed to use a new one each time, We'll throw it,

822
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: buddy out the door.

823
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 3: With all the one use needles.

824
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 2: Let's just wash them, which is exactly what they do.

825
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 2: So they start reusing needles on these prisoners to get donations,

826
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: which means not only are sick prisoners some of them

827
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: know they're sick, a lot of them don't donating and

828
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 2: adding tainted blood to the supply, but also a lot

829
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 2: of personers who are not sick are getting sick because

830
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: they donate and then keep continuing to donate and adding

831
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: even more tainted blood to the system. Now, Golster claims

832
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 2: he was unaware of the possibility at the time that

833
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: this could happen, saying later, quote, I assumed stupidly that

834
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: our people selling this plasma had some process of cleaning

835
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 2: it up. So again, he's a he's like a prison

836
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 2: clinic guy, I said doctor earlier. I don't actually know

837
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: what is his degree state is, but like his attitude

838
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 2: is like they've got to be doing something to make

839
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: this safe, right right, probably pasteurized blood, right.

840
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like it's you know, the modern era. You gotta yeah,

841
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 3: we know, right, we know that someone will do something.

842
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 2: It's like somebody will be something.

843
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, someone will always do something tragedy of the commons.

844
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 3: You walk into a public space and you go, man,

845
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 3: surely somebody sweeps here.

846
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody's got to be handling the US. Surely, not

847
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: just sending this to Canada.

848
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, not me obviously, but surely someone

849
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 3: along to chain.

850
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: Someone must be responsible for making sure this doesn't go

851
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 2: horribly wrong.

852
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,959
Speaker 3: People can't be that evil they right.

853
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: Right, And speaking of human Nope, speaking of great people.

854
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 2: Let's have some more ads and we're back, so to

855
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: save costs, and again because there's no real oversight to

856
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 2: the program. It's also like if you want to have

857
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: like a professional phlebotomist, and like phlebotomists are pretty good

858
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 2: generally at like taking blood. If you've ever had like

859
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: a phlebotomist take your blood and then had like you know,

860
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 2: a nurse who's that's not their specialty take your blood.

861
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 2: You know that Like when somebody's specifically their whole thing

862
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: is doing blood draws, it's a much more pleasant process.

863
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, they know where the vein is.

864
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, but here's the thing, both nurses and phlebotomists expensive.

865
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 2: You know who's you know who works for basically free

866
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: taking blood? Who is an inmates?

867
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 3: Oh see? Also wait before we go, I do want

868
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 3: to point this out for anybody who is a nurse

869
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 3: or are in associated listening. That is not to denigrate

870
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 3: at all.

871
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: No, no, no, And you guys have a lot of security.

872
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 2: I'm just saying like people who specifically trained to draw

873
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: blood are better than people who like that's just one

874
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: of a bunch of things they do at drawing generally.

875
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it's it's like a single knife versus

876
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 3: Swiss army knife.

877
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

878
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: Or it's like it's like how a nursery doctor who's

879
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: like specialized in like obg way and you know stuff

880
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 2: and childbirth, they're going to do a better job of

881
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: like birth of a child than someone who like that

882
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 2: was just part of my training. But I'm I'm here

883
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 2: to deal with like car crashes and ship right.

884
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, this this all you know, just like as

885
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 3: a representative of Big Vampire. This sounds too expensive.

886
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 2: Let's cut all these people out, anyone professional.

887
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's get let's get rid of these fancy degree types.

888
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 3: I want someone on the ground who asked fewer questions.

889
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: Yes, someone who's in prison because they shot two guys, right,

890
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 2: oh my god, right, yes, yes, yes, perfect, perfect. One

891
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 2: witness to this was a former inmate donor, John Shock,

892
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: who spoke to Susie Parker. Quote, they had inmates doing

893
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 2: things they shouldn't have been doing. They would let people

894
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 2: who was sick bleed, ain't no telling what they had.

895
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: They didn't check all the time. And after Shock had

896
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: been donating for some time, prison medical staff conducted a

897
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 2: hepatitis test and he turned up positive. Quote, I am

898
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 2: damn sure I got it hepatitis CE in the prison.

899
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: I didn't have it before I went in. I've never

900
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 2: had needles stuck in my arm that wasn't supposed to

901
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: be there. I've never interacted with homosexuals. I love women too.

902
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 2: My Again, this is the seventies. I didn't get it

903
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: those ways, but right, but he is saying that, like,

904
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 2: the only time needles were in my arm was when

905
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 2: I doing this blood donation program. Obviously I got hepatitis

906
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 2: from this.

907
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, you don't have to be a perfect person

908
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 3: to exercise logic.

909
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: That's what he's got exactly. And he claims that when

910
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: he gets diagnosed with hepatitis, see, they don't kick him

911
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 2: out of the donor program. And in fact, he claims

912
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: the doctor who sees him is like, well, your eyes

913
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: aren't yellow, you don't have jaundice yet, so you're probably fine.

914
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: He said, quote if you start feeling bad, come back

915
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 2: and see me. That's just the way they were. They

916
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 2: don't care because you are dirt down there anyway. Yeah. Ah, prisons,

917
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 2: yess And what part of the story here is that, like,

918
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 2: you know, Americans don't like to think about treating prisoners

919
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: more nicely. It's never a popular political topic. But when

920
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: you treat these people like shit and like they're not human,

921
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 2: thousands of you might die from tainted Like that's not

922
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: why you should care, But there are objective consequences to

923
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 2: this evil right, Like it never states no, no, no,

924
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: evil on a popular of people, ever, stays isolated to

925
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 2: that population of people. This is a lesson we never learn,

926
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: but it is important.

927
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 3: That's really well put too. Yes, Uh, that's that's a

928
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 3: that's one of the best articulations. Yeah, I've heard of that. Honestly,

929
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 3: I'm not blowing smoke. You know that is there is

930
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 3: a interlinked system, regardless of whether people want to admit

931
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 3: that is.

932
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 2: The we're all deeply tied together. These are human beings

933
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 2: who live with us, and treating them like shit causes

934
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: problems outside of them. Even if you don't care about

935
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: that group of people, and you should, but like, yeah, you.

936
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 3: Should try, you should try, should maybe you should maybe

937
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 3: not try to give them diseases while stealing their blood?

938
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what that might that might love to you?

939
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 3: Is that a reasonable, reasonable, low enough bar.

940
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,959
Speaker 2: But I'm not saying none of these guys did terrible things.

941
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 2: I'm saying, don't give them diseases while stealing their blood.

942
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 3: I mean, just like, you know, if you're spitballing, right, if.

943
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: We're spit like first first step, maybe don't be a vampire.

944
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 3: All right, hang on, you said you're going to be cool.

945
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: You're right, you're right, You're right, because like sometimes you

946
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 2: could be the sexy vampire who winds up getting cast

947
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: in Bong Jong home hoovies or you know, right, yeah,

948
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 2: maybe maybe it, maybe this, maybe this will give us

949
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: more Robert Pattinson move, we shouldn't judge. Oh right now,

950
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 2: I'm hearing the Arkansas blood donation program did not lead Danny.

951
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 2: Robert Pattinson.

952
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 3: Wait, you have this confirmed?

953
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I have this confirmed.

954
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: And it turns out you haven't brought up no s

955
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,320
Speaker 1: ferratu as we saw that with Garrison.

956
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: I'm actually unclear as to whether or not that has

957
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: something to do with the Arkansas prison system. You never know.

958
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 1: With Willem Dafoe, so about it, Yeah, well, perfect, perfect, perfect.

959
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: So the first diagnosed AIDS case in the United States, right, Yeah,

960
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 2: June sixteenth, nineteen eighty one. And obviously HIV had been

961
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 2: spreading around the country for some time before this point,

962
00:51:58,280 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 2: but it takes a while for people to realize this,

963
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 2: especially because of the way HIV. You know you have

964
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 2: it for a while before you have you know, you

965
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 2: have symptoms that are clearly you know, it takes a

966
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: long time to figure out what the fuck is going on, right,

967
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 2: but once it does, it's become so widespread that there

968
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 2: is a fucking panic right now. The panic is initially

969
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: focused mainly in the coasts and kind of the more

970
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 2: densely populated areas than rural Arkansas. So while other institutions

971
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 2: start taking action to counter this new blood born horror,

972
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 2: the Arkansas prison system does nothing at all. Bud Henderson,

973
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 2: who is again the doctor who founds the company managing

974
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 2: not just the plasma program but all of the prison

975
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: clinics in the state, said later there was mentality that

976
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 2: we didn't have any AIDS in the central part of

977
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 2: the country. The Department of Correction said for years, we

978
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 2: didn't have any AIDS cases. There was a subconsciousness that

979
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 2: we just didn't want to think we had those people

980
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: around us. Again, the real bigotry plays and all of

981
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 2: this cannot be overstated either. And again, if you just

982
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 2: like are what fine with horrible things happening to a

983
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 2: group of people people, it never stays isolated to them. However,

984
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 2: Henderson does admit that he was aware of a danger

985
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 2: because it had impacted his ability to sell blood overseas.

986
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 3: He's pretending money.

987
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 2: It hits his money, right, He's pretending obviously, we don't

988
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 2: have AIDS in Arkansas. Keep drawing. But companies countries around

989
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 2: the world and companies that do blood imports for them

990
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 2: are like, this whole blood born illness, then we're maybe

991
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 2: not going to buy as much blood from like shady

992
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 2: foreign companies, right, Like, we're really worried about this. And

993
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: Henderson calls this the worst possible time for plasma sales,

994
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: and so as a result, he's only able to maintain

995
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 2: his profits by finding a partner in Canada, a company

996
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: called Continental Pharma Cryosand, to take the contract. Now, cryo

997
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,720
Speaker 2: San is a blood wholesaler. They purchase it, they refine

998
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 2: it to specifications that fit what their customers need, and

999
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 2: they sell plasma direct to Switzerland, Japan, Spain, Italy, and

1000
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: another Canadian company who uses it to make a factor

1001
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 2: eight thing for chemophiliacs. Now, a number of these companies

1002
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 2: that Cryosin is selling to have banned the purchase of

1003
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 2: blood on their own soil, and I think all of

1004
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 2: them have banned the use of blood derived from prison inmates, right.

1005
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: But Cryosand doesn't tell them anything, and I think they're

1006
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 2: generally aware where a lot of this blood is coming

1007
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 2: from But it's like a loophole, right, No, no, don't,

1008
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 2: we don't would never do that. That's against that's against

1009
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 2: our Swiss ethics, you know, to take advantage of of

1010
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: people in that situation and it's not safe. Oh hey,

1011
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 2: cryosand they've got clean blood and cryosan and ssures. The

1012
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 2: shipping papers say nothing about the facts, the fact that

1013
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 2: these products have originated from prison donations. The source was

1014
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 2: just listed as ad C Plasma Center, Grady, Arkansas. You

1015
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 2: see that some Japanese guy working at a company that's

1016
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 2: you know, sending blood to hospitals. Fine, you know whatever, Yeah,

1017
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 2: we got the paperwork, you know, we got the paperwork.

1018
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 2: It's all good.

1019
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 3: Why would somebody be dishonest about a way to make

1020
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 3: this much money?

1021
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: Right? Right? And in nineteen three the program does come

1022
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: to a screeching but temporary halt because during this process,

1023
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 2: when they're sending shit to cryosand, it is found that

1024
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: several units of blood tainted with hepatitis B have made

1025
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: their way to Cryosan and thus overseas. This was a

1026
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 2: problem at the time because B, we now know, can

1027
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 2: indicate the presence of HIV, right, which means we are

1028
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: basically certain that by eighty three, HIV has entered the

1029
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 2: Cummins blood supply that's being sent out to all these companies.

1030
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: We don't know exactly when it happens, but the amount

1031
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 2: of age b there finding suggests that it's pretty widespread

1032
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 2: by eighty three. Now, remember the fact that this tainted

1033
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 2: blood is leaving the prison also means that it brings

1034
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 2: spread around inside the prison, some through sex and some

1035
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 2: through drug use. But it does seem like more than

1036
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: anything because of how many people are donating through tainted

1037
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 2: needles being used for blood draws, right, because that lowers

1038
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 2: costs for the company doing the blood draws. Now, this

1039
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 2: whole disaster, the fact that a bunch of tainted units

1040
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 2: of blood gets sent to Canada is written off as

1041
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: a screening lapse. The FDA closes the donation program and

1042
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 2: commings for a while. You know this in eight nineteen

1043
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 2: eighty three, But in nineteen eighty four they publish an

1044
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 2: investigation that comes to some damning conclusions. Quote, Health Management

1045
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 2: Associates had prematurely and improperly distributed plasma contaminated with hepatitis.

1046
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 2: Twelve ineligible donors had given blood in a breach of

1047
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 2: screening process, and an international recall resulted. The FDA then

1048
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 2: revoked the center's license to operate. An investigation revealed that

1049
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 2: the program allowed disqualified donors to bleed, altered records, and

1050
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: stored plasma in ways that didn't prevent contamination. It also

1051
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 2: found that Plasma Center staff wasn't well supervised. It discovered

1052
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 2: attempts by people in hma management positions at the center

1053
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 2: to hide from FDA inspectors the fact that they had

1054
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 2: either initiated or condoned the destruction or alteration of records

1055
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 2: concerning these activities. So this is not just something you

1056
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 2: can say, well, they shouldn't have put it onto the prisoners,

1057
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 2: but the problem started there. No, no, no, management is actively

1058
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: covering up that they are produced and selling tainted blood.

1059
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,399
Speaker 2: They inspired, they conspired, they knew, they were incredibly well

1060
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 2: aware of what they were doing, and they did it

1061
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 2: all for money. Now it is obvious even this is

1062
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 2: putting the problem that exists too mildly and in fact,

1063
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 2: later in nineteen eighty four, in part based on the

1064
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 2: FDA's investigation, the National Correctional Association puts out an informational

1065
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 2: bulletin to members and their members are prisons warning that

1066
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 2: plasma centers are a bad idea. You shouldn't have them

1067
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 2: in prisons, right, And as a result, most US prisons

1068
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 2: that had been in the process of like making plans

1069
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:37,919
Speaker 2: and contracts to do plasma donation programs stop because their

1070
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 2: whole organization is like, actually, this is a terrible idea.

1071
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 2: You are opening yourself up to so much fucking liability. Like,

1072
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 2: just don't do it, right, But the prisons in Arkansas

1073
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 2: don't stop. Company founder Bud Henderson considered the program critical

1074
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 2: not just for his own bottom line, but for the

1075
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 2: welfare of the state itself. And Bud argued it's quote

1076
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 2: for the good of the inmates because the the prison

1077
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 2: needed money too. You have to understand. That's why we

1078
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 2: have your texes.

1079
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 3: But like they like it though, they like it though

1080
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 3: you want to.

1081
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 2: Be able to cut those yeah.

1082
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 3: Wow.

1083
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 2: By the early nineteen eighties, that's when he brings in

1084
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: Leonard Dunn to run his company. Right. I mentioned this earlier.

1085
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 2: This lawyer from Little Rock, Leonard Dunn is a confidant

1086
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 2: and friend of Bill Clinton. He's just like you know,

1087
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 2: he's a banker, right, and Clinton had appointed him at

1088
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 2: the same time as he's being made the head of HMA,

1089
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 2: Governor Clinton appoints him to the head of the Arkansas

1090
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 2: Industrial Development Commission. Now, Clinton also appoints HMA's attorney, Don

1091
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 2: Smith to the Board of Corrections for the state. So

1092
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 2: we're seeing these people. One is a close friend of

1093
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 2: his being put in charge of HMA, and also HMA's

1094
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 2: attorney is putting put on the board of Corrections. Right,

1095
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 2: So there's some direct involvement here of the Clinton administration

1096
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 2: and trying and there at this point trying to get

1097
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: the program going again because it makes the prison system solvent.

1098
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 3: And the question that we have to ask on behalf

1099
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 3: of everybody tuning in. The question is at what threshold

1100
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 3: can we still maintain some sort of possible, if not

1101
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 3: plausible deniability.

1102
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 2: Right, That is the question we'll be dealing with throughout

1103
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 2: the episode. But this is what's happened right now.

1104
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 3: Right.

1105
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 2: So, months after the FDA shut things down and issued

1106
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 2: a report condemning the whole operation, HMA creates a subsidiary

1107
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 2: called Arkansas Blood Components or ABC Plasma, and they keep

1108
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 2: selling the blood that way, right, including to that and

1109
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 2: to cryosand the company that uses tainted us and made

1110
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 2: blood that they are there selling this tainted blood to

1111
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: the Canadian Red Cross. Now at Cummins. Plasma donations continued,

1112
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 2: and by all accounts, most if not all, of the

1113
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 2: same problems persisted. So they get relicnsed right, And the

1114
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 2: next year, in nineteen eighty five, stories come out that

1115
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 2: Arkansas prisons had more inmate complaints than any other state.

1116
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: That's just due to the blood program, but more broadly

1117
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 2: due to hideous issues with rape and abuse by guards

1118
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 2: and poor facilities. This is a black mark on Governor

1119
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: Clinton's record, and so he decides, we need to take

1120
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 2: some serious action in the prisons, not necessarily fix anything,

1121
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 2: but I'm going to have the state police conduct an

1122
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 2: internal investigation into what went wrong here, right, Susie Parker writes,

1123
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 2: the state police prison investigation resulted in two misdemeanor charges

1124
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 2: and one felony charge for employees running a gambling operation.

1125
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: Only a few weeks into it, Clinton himself urged a

1126
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 2: speedy end of the probe. I told them to get

1127
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 2: it done and get it over with. Clinton told reporters

1128
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 2: complaints about poor health care and the plasma program resulted

1129
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: in no action, and the Arkansas Apartment of Corrections director.

1130
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 2: A Lockhart, who had been at the center of the allegations,

1131
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 2: was not punished. Clinton said the prison system had been

1132
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 2: studied to death and refused to oust Lockhart. Now Susie's

1133
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 2: right to center a art. Lockhart the Department of Corrections

1134
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 2: director because he is one of three men who control

1135
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,439
Speaker 2: the state prison system. The other two are a state

1136
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 2: senator named Knox Nelson and a state representative named Bill Foster. Now,

1137
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 2: there are allegations that all three men, or at least

1138
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 2: been close to them, profited directly from the blood program,

1139
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 2: often by awarding contracts to local businesses who supported them

1140
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 2: and their campaigns. One good article that I read in

1141
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 2: the Arkansas Times on the matter interviewed Bobby Roberts, currently

1142
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 2: the Director of the Arkansas Library System or later the

1143
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: Director of the Arkansas Library System and a former member

1144
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 2: of Governor Clinton's staff, and he blames Newton and Foster

1145
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 2: for blocking any attempts to reform the system. Roberts recalled

1146
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 2: it as a time when Nelson held the upper hand

1147
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 2: over Clinton with regard to the prison system, which was

1148
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: headquartered in his district. Robert said Nelson made it clear

1149
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 2: to Clinton that as chairman of the Senate Rules Committee,

1150
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 2: he would prevent legislation that the governor wanted in other

1151
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 2: areas such as schools, roads, and economic development, from ever

1152
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 2: reaching a vote. If Clinton pressed for changes in the prisons,

1153
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 2: Knox and I got into about everything, into it, about

1154
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 2: everything under the sun. Robert said, I don't think any

1155
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 2: governor was going to cross him a handful of other

1156
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 2: senators down there and think he was going to get

1157
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 2: anything done. There was a lot of politics that went

1158
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 2: on in those things. You really could not do anything

1159
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:09,439
Speaker 2: with the ADC if you ran a fall of Bill,

1160
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 2: a fell of Bill Foster and Knox Nelson. That's just

1161
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 2: the reality of it. So Roberts's allegation is that part

1162
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 2: of what's happening here is these guys see a lot

1163
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 2: of use in the Plasma program because it's bringing in money,

1164
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 2: not just to the prison system, but it creates a

1165
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 2: lot of opportunity to give people work and contracts that

1166
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 2: also profit them. And it's not just the blood system.

1167
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 2: The whole fact Arkansas prisons are uniquely fucked up in

1168
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 2: the US at this point in time, and part of

1169
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 2: it is because there are being run by these guys

1170
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: who see them as a way to get kickbacks and

1171
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 2: bribes for their friends. Right, that's effectively what's happening. And

1172
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 2: their threat is like, hey, whatever else you want to

1173
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 2: do in the state of Arkansas, Bill, you won't get

1174
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 2: to do if you fuck with this golden goose of ours.

1175
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 2: So just stay the fuck away, right.

1176
01:02:56,680 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 3: Just wrap it up, wrap up the investigation, get to

1177
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 3: your fucking saxophone, right and play nice.

1178
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 2: Then you could do some shit with the schools and

1179
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 2: become president.

1180
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 3: Right, whatever you want, buddy, whatever you want. Just keep

1181
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 3: the blood flowing.

1182
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 2: That's one allegation right now. Roberts writes Clinton a letter

1183
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 2: at this point, right, telling him that appointing HMA attorney

1184
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 2: Don Smith to the Corrections Board had been a terrible idea. Right,

1185
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 2: So he's mostly blaming these guys in like the local legislature,

1186
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 2: but he's also like, why would you put this guy,

1187
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 2: this attorney at this company that just got shut down

1188
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 2: by the FDA on the corrections board?

1189
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 3: Right?

1190
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 2: And he his claim and Roberts would for years claim

1191
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 2: plasma donations were never like our main concern when it

1192
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 2: came to prison reform. But he says that it was

1193
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 2: known to everybody working in the prison system that the

1194
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 2: program was poorly run and was a disaster waiting to happen.

1195
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 2: In his letter, he described hma to Bill Clinton as quote,

1196
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: a time bomb waiting to blow up in somebody's face,

1197
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 2: and before longer it would do just that. But that's

1198
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 2: going to be in part two. How are you feeling, Ben.

1199
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 3: Oh man, I'm so stoked, you know about how how

1200
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 3: great this is all going.

1201
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I am.

1202
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 3: I feel like this is a real cliffhanger, right, this

1203
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 3: is a this is a term moments. Fine, yeah, you know,

1204
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 3: who knows, Robert.

1205
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 2: Maybe it turns out we don't have enough appatitis, you know,

1206
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 2: have we considered that, Yes we have.

1207
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe maybe the real blood money was the friends

1208
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 3: we made along the way and whatever. But yes, this

1209
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 3: is a story more people need to learn about. And

1210
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 3: I think it's a story that a lot of people

1211
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 3: are a little bit shook to investigate because in very

1212
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 3: divisive domestic times, it may tell you a narrative that

1213
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:55,160
Speaker 3: you don't want to hear.

1214
01:04:55,720 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's uh yeah, I think that's like

1215
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 2: a that's a very good way to put it. And

1216
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 2: I think the bigger, like the big part of this

1217
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:11,480
Speaker 2: story is like the distributed system of making great evil, right,

1218
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 2: very rarely is it like somebody comes in with a plan,

1219
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:18,920
Speaker 2: a scheme to do something monstrous. It's more incentives a

1220
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,920
Speaker 2: line and a bunch of people make little compromises, and

1221
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 2: a few people at the top, do you know, are

1222
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 2: just psychopaths who are like, yeah, I don't give a

1223
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 2: fuck how many people get tainted blood? I want my money,

1224
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 2: you know. Anyway, it's cool stuff. Also, I am now

1225
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,240
Speaker 2: thinking of that song tainted Love, but like about tainted Blood,

1226
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 2: So that's going to be going on in my head

1227
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 2: for a while. To you anyway, whatever nobody needs that,

1228
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 2: nobody needs me saying.

1229
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 3: Everybody needs it. We need we need someone to write

1230
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 3: the full parody lyrics of this. Send it to us

1231
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 3: copyright free, copy right free, absolutely right you copy.

1232
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, get a whole band together, do it.

1233
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 2: I don't know what we'd use it for because we're

1234
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: already recording the episode, but you.

1235
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 3: Know, I think maybe like a like yeah, thank you

1236
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 3: in advanced folks, maybe like a just a just a

1237
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:23,479
Speaker 3: non secuitur. You know, there's no joke like an old joke,

1238
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 3: especially a specific one. So give it, you know, give

1239
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 3: it a few years.

1240
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll throw it up in a year in an

1241
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 2: episode on Heinrich Himmler.

1242
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 3: You know, oh boy, that's the real banality of Oh geez.

1243
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:39,960
Speaker 2: So Ben. Where can people find you on the internet

1244
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:40,760
Speaker 2: dot com?

1245
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 3: Ah? Yes, the internet dot com. That's a real up

1246
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 3: and coming thing. And thank you for asking, Robert. Well,

1247
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 3: you can find me hanging out occasionally, uh with you

1248
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 3: on Behind the Bastards and Each Is Past. You can

1249
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 3: check out critical thinking, apply allegations of conspiracy and stuff

1250
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 3: they don't want you to know, or ridiculous history. You

1251
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 3: can also find myself calling meself at Ben Bullen and

1252
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 3: ammerse to creativity wherever there's an AT sign. And then

1253
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 3: you know, before now you could have found me just

1254
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 3: freestyle selling blood on the streets. But I'm really excited

1255
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 3: about the catalytic converter thing. I think this, I think

1256
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 3: that's going to be big for us.

1257
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's going to be big for us

1258
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 2: and obviously big for all of you who lose your

1259
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 2: catalytic converters. But hey, we've got extras that we took

1260
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 2: from you anyway.

1261
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll sell them back.

1262
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 2: We'll sell them back. That's the episode, everybody come back

1263
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 2: to part two.

1264
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

1265
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1266
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:53,439
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1267
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1268
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1269
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 1: and Friday.

1270
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 2: Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind

1271
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 2: the Bastards