1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 2: Good Morning. 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: episode is going to be a longer one part of 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: my interview series where I talk with fascinating people about 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: how they take their days from great to awesome. 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: And any advice they might have for the rest of us. 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: So today I am delighted to welcome Cal Newport to 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 1: this show. Cal is a professor of computer science at 10 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: Georgetown and he's also the author of several books on productivity, 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: including the recent Slow Productivity and Deep Work, a very 12 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: famous one. So Cal, welcome to the show. 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 3: Well, Laura, it's always a pleasure to talk with you. 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: I'm excited to have a conversation and get to share 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: it with our listeners. So Cal, I mean, something that's 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: always interesting to me about you is that many of 17 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: us who wind up, you know, creating content about productivity 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: basically just do this and you still also have a 19 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: normal job. So I wonder if you could talk a 20 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: little bit about how you structure your life in order 21 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: to make space for both. 22 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 3: Well, I carefully would probably be the short answer. When 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 3: it comes to podcasting. That particular type of content creation. 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 3: I was very wary about it, right because I knew 25 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 3: there was a regular time schedule footprint that this would demand. 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 3: I'm very wary about adding things into my life that 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 3: can make a regular commitment on my time, and so 28 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 3: I really put it off and kept putting it off 29 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 3: until the pandemic came and suddenly I had so much 30 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 3: time that it didn't seem like so much of an impact. 31 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 3: But I worried then, hey, when things get back to 32 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 3: a normal type of schedule, I don't want this to 33 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 3: have too big of a footprint. And so the rule 34 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 3: I came up with for podcasting was one half day 35 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: once a week. I was willing to give up one 36 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 3: half day once a week, but no more, and that 37 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: I would have to figure out how to stay within that. 38 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 3: So to grow the show, or to do more episodes, 39 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 3: or to do more research, or to have more sophisticated 40 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 3: things happening on the show, I would just have to 41 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 3: find ways to fit that within the week. So I 42 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: went slowly. It was me at my house, and then 43 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: I brought on a producer, and the producer could do 44 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 3: more things, and that gave me more time to try 45 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 3: to do other things. And if we want to update 46 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 3: something about the studio or the setup. This might take 47 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: a very long time because again I have these half 48 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 3: days once a week to work on it. But I 49 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 3: was careful about it. When it comes to my writing, 50 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: that's a little bit different because professor's write, so it's 51 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 3: not so incongruent with the other things I'm doing as 52 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 3: a professor. Professors write books, professors do interviews, and so 53 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: that I was used to doing my whole life as 54 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 3: an academic, from grad school through all the ranks of 55 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 3: professors and full professor. Writing today has all been about 56 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 3: making sure you're writing all the time, So that fit 57 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 3: much more naturally that I try to write every day. 58 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 3: I try to write first, first thing every day. Sometimes 59 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: it's a computer science paper, sometimes it's a book, Sometimes 60 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 3: it's a New Yorker art sometimes it's a digital ethics article. 61 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 3: That felt more natural. That was a more natural fit 62 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 3: for what I was doing, all right. 63 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: But the idea of blocking off a certain amount of 64 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: time for a project is a key part of your work. 65 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you're always teaching people about the idea of 66 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: time blocking, and maybe you can explain a little bit 67 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: to people what that actually means and how that's kind 68 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: of what you're doing with the podcasting. 69 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm a big believer in giving your time a job, 70 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 3: at least during your workday, right. I think if you 71 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 3: approach your workday from the mindset of just when I 72 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 3: have time, let me think about what I want to 73 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 3: work on next? Like what am I in the mood 74 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: to work on? Or maybe I'm a David Allen afficionado, 75 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 3: so I'm going to load up some context list and 76 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: grab a next action off of it. I think this 77 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 3: approach doesn't work well given the pacing and workloads of 78 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: modern jobs. It's much better to actually directly confront what 79 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 3: is the time I have available today? What do I 80 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: want to do with it? 81 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: Right? 82 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 3: Okay, maybe if those first thirty minutes of the day 83 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 3: I have free, what do I want to do with 84 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 3: those thirty minutes? Like? Am I going to work on 85 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 3: this project? The flip side of time blocking is not 86 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 3: only does it allow you to make more of the 87 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 3: time you have from a productivity standpoint, it also lets 88 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 3: you to better take time off. When you're controlling the 89 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 3: time of your day. Now, you can say something, for example, like, 90 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 3: in my time block plan, I'm going to take this 91 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 3: two and a half hour block in the afternoon. You 92 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: know what, I'm exhausted after this project that I just 93 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 3: hit a deadline on. I'm going to go watch a movie. 94 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 3: And when you're time blocking, you can do that with 95 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 3: complete comfort because you say, I know what i'm doing. 96 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: This is what i'm doing before, that's what I'm doing 97 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: after that, this is part of a bigger plan. 98 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 2: This is fine. 99 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: So I'm a big believer of give your time a job. 100 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 3: Figure out when you're going to work on things, when 101 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 3: you're not going to work on things, what confront the 102 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 3: reality of your schedule, confront the reality of your workload, 103 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 3: and then make the best decisions you can. 104 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: And when do you do personally this confrontation? I mean, 105 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: what does your planning process tend. 106 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: To look like? 107 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: Well, I'm a believer in multi scale planning, right, because 108 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 3: I think the key problem with any sort of organizational 109 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 3: philosoph is that in the end, you're trying to do 110 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 3: something very difficult, which is connect on one side of 111 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 3: the spectrum of the scale spectrum, a big picture aspiration 112 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 3: for you in your life, to the other end of 113 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: the scale spectrum, which is what am I doing to 114 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 3: the next minute, right, that's actually kind of hard to 115 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 3: do because you can't minute by minute be continually rehashing 116 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 3: what are my goals for my life? What am I 117 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 3: trying to accomplish? So how do we get from big 118 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 3: picture visions down to end the moment execution. I think 119 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: you should have multiple scales of planning that essentially filters 120 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 3: this intuition down. So what I mean by that is 121 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 3: your biggest scale might be a plan that you do 122 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: at the scale of like a season. Right, okay, for 123 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 3: the fall, I'm making my plan. I get back in 124 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 3: touch with my goals before my life. What's important to me. 125 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 3: I'm going to take a whole day and do this. 126 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 3: I'm going to reflect what do I want to accomplish 127 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 3: this season? What changes am I trying to make? What 128 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: major projects I want to make progress on. You make 129 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 3: that plan. Now you look at this plan once a week. 130 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 3: So now once a week you can create a weekly plan. 131 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: This is when you review that big picture seasonal plan 132 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 3: in your weekly plan. Now you're confronting your calendar. Hey, 133 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 3: what days are more crowded than others? Where are there 134 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: going to be good opportunities this week to make progress 135 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 3: on things that are important? But not urgent. I often 136 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: recommend during the weekly planning that you're putting priorities onto 137 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 3: your calendar at this point where you can protect them, 138 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: like meetings or appointments that you're used to. Right you say, 139 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 3: you know what, I am grabbing Thursday afternoon, which is 140 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: still free. I'm going to grab that for working on 141 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: this big riding project. And now now that's protected and 142 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 3: other meetings and calls can't take up that time. Weekly 143 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 3: planning is also where you could see there might be 144 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 3: obstacles that are punching above their weight class. So what 145 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 3: I mean by this might be Tuesday morning is perfect 146 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: for me to like really push through and finish this project, 147 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 3: except I have this coffee with like a colleague that 148 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: I agree to three weeks ago, and it's across town 149 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 3: and it's at ten. That destroys the entire morning. And 150 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 3: when you see the whole picture is when you can say, 151 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:54,679 Speaker 3: you know what, why don't I just call that friend 152 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 3: or that colleague and say can we do this like 153 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 3: Thursday afternoon instead? They don't care. But you've just cleared 154 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,239 Speaker 3: up a big chunk of time, all right, So now 155 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: you have made your weekly plan. Each day you can 156 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 3: time block the working hours of that day. All right, 157 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: what's my plan for the day? Reference your weekly plan. 158 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 3: So if there's anything you wrote down put on your calendar, 159 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 3: wrote down to your weekly plan, just reference that you're 160 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 3: only looking one scale up into multi scale planning, and 161 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 3: then you make your plan for the day. But those 162 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 3: seasonal aspirations are filtering down through your weekly plan down 163 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: to your daily plan. And then when you get to 164 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: the moment, you're just doing what your time block plan 165 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 3: says for you to be doing that moment. So your 166 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: action in that moment is connected through these four links 167 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 3: back to your bigger aspirations and dreams without you having 168 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: to confront them continually throughout the day. 169 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think I do something very similar. I tend 170 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: to plan my weeks sort of later in the previous week, 171 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: either Thursday or Friday, looking forward to the next week. 172 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: I'm curious when you. 173 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: Do this, I want to do what you do. I 174 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: actually think Friday end of day would be optimal because 175 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 3: then you go into the weekend with the psychological suker 176 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 3: of knowing I've looked at the week ahead, I have 177 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: a plan for the week ahead. Otherwise you kind of 178 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 3: have this in the back of your head, sort of 179 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 3: anxiety of like I don't know what's happening next week. 180 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: I often don't get to it Friday afternoon because I 181 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: like to shut down early on Fridays, and I often 182 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 3: don't quite get to it. So Monday morning is almost 183 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 3: always when I'm doing this. I accommodate that reality, however, 184 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: by going pretty light on Monday meeting. So what I 185 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 3: try to do is keep Monday relatively open so that 186 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 3: I can spend non trivial time, first thing, for example, 187 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 3: making my weekly plan, and not have that run right 188 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 3: up against some sort of meeting or call or recording session. 189 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I find a really maybe psychologically need 190 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: to know what's happening, because otherwise I do think about 191 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: it over the weekend a lot and get worried about like, well, 192 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: something's not going to happen Monday, that had to happen Monday. 193 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: And so yeah, I've learned to do it earlier in 194 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 1: the day on Friday so it doesn't get bumped. 195 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 2: I guess is how I do it. 196 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: But I know people do it a lot of different times. 197 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: Some people will swear by Sunday sessions, for instance. 198 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: I think that's probably another common time. 199 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: Well, we're going to take one quick ad break and 200 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: then we will be back talking more with Cal Newport. 201 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: So I am back talking with Cal Newport, who is 202 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: a productivity expert, the author of several books on the 203 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: topic in addition to being a computer science professor at Georgetown. 204 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: But Cal, one of the books people know you best 205 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: for is Deep Work, which came out several years ago now, 206 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: and you know, you talk about all the things that 207 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: people have sort of historically done to limit their distractions 208 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: as they produce their their masterpieces. And you know, so 209 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: I know a lot of us are trying to get 210 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,599 Speaker 1: more in the deep habit, deep work habit, in this 211 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: very distracted world. What are some steps we can take 212 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: to limit the interruptions, limit the distractions, create more of 213 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: a deep work habit. Given that you know neither you 214 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: are I are going to wind up in a tower 215 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: for three months. 216 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 3: Well, I think the key idea in deep work is 217 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 3: that cognitive context switches have for real cost. So, just 218 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: from a very practical neuroscience perspective, if I'm trying to 219 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: do something cognitively demanding, let's say I'm trying to come 220 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 3: up with a complicated business strategy, right something, and I 221 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 3: switch my cognitive context. So I look at an email inbox, 222 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 3: for example, Even if that check is brief, I have 223 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 3: initiated a cascade of neurological changes in my brain to 224 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 3: try to switch the target to my attention away from 225 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 3: what I'm doing into that inbox. And when I wrench 226 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 3: my attention back, I'm now in a confused state, and 227 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: my ability to produce work with my brain reduces, exhaustion 228 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 3: goes up. So the main neurological idea behind deep work 229 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 3: is when you're working on something hard, try to give 230 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 3: it your full attention. Right, These back and forth checks 231 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: will really drag you down, all right, So now the 232 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 3: question is in the work context at least, why are 233 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 3: we doing these checks? And here's a place where I 234 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 3: think we get it wrong. We often abstract behavior like 235 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 3: checking email or slack as an entirely optional behavioral quirk. Right, 236 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 3: We say, look, just batch your email, don't check it, right, 237 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 3: check your email less often while you're working on your project, 238 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 3: like it's just a willpower issue. That's the issue. It's 239 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 3: the user error. But one of the big things I 240 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 3: uncovered is I worked on this topic and as I 241 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: wrote the follow up the deep work, which was called 242 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 3: the World Without Email. One of the ideas I uncovered 243 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: is the reason why we're checking these inboxes and these 244 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 3: chat channels all the time, completely destabilizing our ability to 245 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 3: deep work is our underlying collaboration strategies that we're too 246 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 3: willing in the moment to collaborate by just sending ad 247 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 3: hoc messages back and forth. In the moment, it's easier 248 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 3: if something comes up I need to figure out with you. 249 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 3: In the moment, it's easier to dash off a message, Hey, 250 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 3: what's going on with this question mark sind But what 251 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 3: we don't realize is over time, what happens with these 252 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: ad hoc back and forth exchanges is that we have 253 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: to keep checking communication channels because we need to bounce 254 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 3: these messages back and forth enough times to get to 255 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 3: a conclusion within whatever deadline is relevant. So when I 256 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 3: send you that message this morning that says, hey, what's 257 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: going up with this right, and it's something we need 258 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 3: to really figure out today, I have actually probably just 259 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 3: have locked myself in to the need to have a 260 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: ten message back and forth interaction that's happening unscheduled, which 261 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 3: means I'm going to have to keep checking my inbox 262 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 3: to find your next message in time to reply and 263 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 3: time for you to reply, which means I might have 264 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 3: accidentally just generated fifty extra inbox checks just by in 265 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 3: the moment saying hey, what's going on with this question mark? So, 266 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 3: I think the deeper cures, at least in the office, 267 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 3: the deeper cures for getting towards more deep work is 268 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: moving more collaboration out of ad hoc on schedule back 269 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 3: and forth messaging, consolidating it, having process around it, or 270 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 3: using consolidated synchronous times like office hours or group office hours. 271 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 3: That is like the most important thing I think for 272 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: getting people some mental energy back and the ability to 273 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 3: do more deeper work. 274 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: So maybe like scheduling a regular one on one with 275 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: somebody that you work with closely, and then you save 276 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: most of the questions you have for that regular meeting. 277 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think everyone should have daily office hours. It 278 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 3: should last for forty five minutes, It should be in 279 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 3: a well publicized time. Your door should be open, you 280 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 3: should have a zoom room open, and your phone is 281 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: sitting right next to you. Anything that requires more than 282 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 3: a single response, so any message that requires a little 283 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: bit of back and forth. The default should be this 284 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 3: is we should get into this when grab me at 285 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 3: the next office hours you're available, and we'll get it done. 286 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 3: Like I think that should absolutely happen. I think teams 287 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 3: should have at least twice a week a dock at 288 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 3: clearing meeting or any issue that comes up that needs 289 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 3: to be discussed as a group, you put it in 290 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 3: a shared document for the team. When you get to 291 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 3: that next meeting, you go through that document line by 292 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 3: line by line, just nailing things one after another, everyone together. 293 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 3: It's not about saving overall amounts of time, right because 294 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 3: you might say it takes me no time to reply 295 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: to email messages. What it's reducing as context shifts. If 296 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 3: I can take fifty inbox checks and can selllidate that 297 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 3: in the fifty minutes of real time office hours, it's 298 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 3: a massive win for me. 299 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: And I imagine people can do this in their personal 300 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: lives too. I mean I could see that. You know, 301 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: my husband and I go back and forth a lot 302 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: on the details of planning our lives, and it's probably 303 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: worse than any slack channel out there. But consolidating that 304 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: into one particular meeting every you know, it could be 305 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: in the evening, or it could be every couple days 306 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: or once a week or whatever people need to do. 307 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: But then you would hash through all the major issues 308 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: at that point and then ideally not have to hash 309 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: through them at other points. 310 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I think definitely. You know, if you're in 311 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 3: a partnership, you're married, or whatever's going on, you probably 312 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 3: need especially if you have kids, you probably need a 313 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 3: morning check in like, hey, are we on board with 314 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: the game plan for today? And then you need a 315 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: more like substantial This is when we do it. We 316 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 3: do it right before dinner. We do it o we're 317 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 3: doing the dishes. We also we're big believers in having 318 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: a physical inbox, right because you generate a lot of paper. 319 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 3: It's oh, here's the thing from the car dealership. Here's 320 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 3: like a form that we have to fill out for 321 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 3: the kids camp. So we have a physical inbox so 322 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 3: that when we have this meeting, we can actually go 323 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: through the physical artifacts that have to be discussed. I'm 324 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 3: also a big believer with friends, because it's a big 325 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 3: issue people have. It's like a double edged sword. It's 326 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 3: fantastic to be social, but in an age of text messaging, 327 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 3: it can put you into this continual, partial attention of 328 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 3: where I'm constantly dealing with, you know, what's going on 329 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 3: with different friends or this or that. The commute office 330 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 3: hours is a fantastic hack where you just tell all 331 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 3: your friends this is when I'm driving home, call me whenever, right, 332 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 3: and you actually end up being more socially because it 333 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 3: moves more of these like ad hoc back and forth 334 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 3: text conversations to like people call you when you're driving 335 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: home and you can catch up with people and answer questions, 336 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: and yeah, I think you're right. In your personal life, 337 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 3: these same ideas can help. 338 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, the group text can in fact consume a ton 339 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: of time, a ton of attention. Although you know, as 340 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: I think about what, you know, how I get distracted. 341 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes it's email, but I can't fool myself 342 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: that somebody's that's really trying to reach me. It's just 343 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: you know that I kind of want to check email 344 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: or whatever. Because sometimes wrestling with complicated, concentrated work is challenging, right, 345 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: I mean it can feel kind of unpleasant almost sometimes 346 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: in the moment as we're struggling with it. 347 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: I mean, oh, do you sense this too? 348 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 3: Deep? Work is not natural? Right, in a sense, that 349 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 3: the human brain, it's evolved to give sharp attention temporarily 350 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 3: to things that are highly salient in our environment. So 351 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 3: we can focus really hard if we hear a rustling 352 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 3: and we're like, okay, is that a bear or whatever. 353 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 3: Focusing for a sustained amount of times on symbolic abstract 354 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 3: concepts in our brain is something we're just hijacking our 355 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 3: brain apparatus to do that, just like reading is something 356 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 3: we're not evolved to do. We have to hijack parts 357 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: of the visual and audio apparatus in the brain and 358 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 3: rewire it, brute force rewire it to do this artificial thing. 359 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 3: So deep work is hard, right, And so that means, 360 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 3: for example, there's a limit on how much you can do. 361 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 3: It's practiced right. And I often have to remember this 362 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 3: when I'm giving talks about this is I've spent my 363 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 3: entire adult life training at the highest levels to be 364 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 3: a theoretical computer scientist. That is not most people's situation, right. 365 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: I Mean, it's like someone who was training to be 366 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 3: a professional athlete saying, hey, you should be in the 367 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 3: gym six hours a day. So it's something you get 368 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 3: better with that practice, And most people aren't super practiced 369 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 3: at it, and sometimes you just can't do it. I 370 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 3: told you offline, I was sick for most of the 371 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 3: last week. You know, I couldn't do deep work. You know, 372 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 3: it's so hard that there's no way you can take 373 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 3: a compromised mind. And the thing is our minds are 374 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 3: compromised by a lot of things. I think it's a 375 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: really good point. We should respect the difficulty of deep 376 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 3: work and use that to let ourselves off the hook 377 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 3: a little bit when we're not doing and jew Wiles 378 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 3: in his attic in Princeton solving Fermat's last theorem over 379 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 3: seven years. 380 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think I use all my brain much, 381 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: not that I would ever be able to do that, 382 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: but it's true. We you know, thinking of it as 383 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: an athletic sort of thing that you are be in training, 384 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: and probably most of us are just sort of in 385 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: the walk around the block kind of level of fitness, 386 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: and with some concerted effort, money of us could do more. 387 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: You know, you could run a five k, you could 388 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: you know, lift a reasonable amount of weight. Then there's 389 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: some people who are going to be, you know, running 390 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: two hour and ten minute marathons, and they're a whole 391 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: different class, but most of us could be better than 392 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 1: we currently are if we if we work at it. 393 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I like that. 394 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 2: Yep. 395 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're going to take one more quick 396 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: ad break and then we'll be back with a little 397 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: bit more from Cal Newport. We're here after the ad 398 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: break talking with Cal Newport, who is a computer science 399 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: professor at Georgetown, the author of several productivity books, also 400 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: a podcaster. You should go check him out. But we 401 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: talk a lot about routines on this show. You talked 402 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: recently in this interview about doing a shutdown richeal. 403 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 2: You said you did this relatively early on Fridays. 404 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about 405 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: what your shut down ritual looks like and then why 406 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: you do it. 407 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 3: Well, it's inspired by goes back to David Allen. David 408 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 3: Allen was inspired himself by Dean Atchison, who was a 409 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 3: consultant who a business consultant who is Alan's mentor. And 410 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,239 Speaker 3: Atchinson had this idea, which I think is correct, that 411 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 3: open loops, so things that you are involved with are 412 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,959 Speaker 3: obligated to do or committed to do, that are not 413 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,239 Speaker 3: captured somewhere that exists just in your head. Are a 414 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 3: source of anxiety and stress. And it's a very naturalistic 415 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 3: and kind of common sense theory because your mind, if 416 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 3: it deems something is important and doesn't trust that it's 417 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 3: taking care of or will be taken care of, it 418 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 3: has to keep remembering it refreshing itself so you don't 419 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: forget it, and this takes up mental resources and ultimately 420 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 3: becomes a source of stress or anxiety. So Alan channeling 421 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 3: Atchison said, oh, full capture with this terminology is important. 422 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 3: Everything should be written down in a trusted system. And 423 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 3: I really have found that to be successful in my 424 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 3: own own sort of mental life is trusting I have 425 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 3: a plan for what needs to be done, and there's 426 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 3: nothing I need to remember in my head. Gives me peace. 427 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 3: And so I realized a big missing piece of all 428 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 3: of this for me was that at the end of 429 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: the day, if I just said, okay, I'm done working now, 430 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 3: now I'm doing my personal life, it was very difficult 431 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: to move past the open loops because even if I 432 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 3: had done the David Allen thing and captured tasks in 433 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 3: lists that I was going to review, there was other 434 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 3: things going on, like what's my plan for getting this done? 435 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 3: Do I need to keep working on this. Maybe this 436 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 3: isn't working at all. Like I actually developed my shutdown 437 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 3: routines while working on my doctoral dissertation. I'd be very 438 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 3: stressed at the end of the workday about like a 439 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 3: proof that wasn't working, and like maybe I should keep 440 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 3: thinking about this. What if everything falls apart? So what 441 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 3: I started doing was a simple routine where at the 442 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 3: end of the day I closed down all open loops. 443 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: So partially that's capturing open obligations and systems. Partially it's 444 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 3: looking at my calendar and seeing what's coming up ahead, 445 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 3: making sure that I'm not forgetting something that's going to happen. 446 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 3: And partially it's looking at my inboxes to make sure 447 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,959 Speaker 3: there's not something urgent I missed or just arrived. And 448 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: partially it was looking at my plan, what's my plan 449 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: for the rest of this week in convincing myself I 450 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 3: have a good plan for making progress on the things 451 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 3: that matter, and then I would do a really demonstrable 452 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 3: ritual to indicate to myself i'd shut down. I used 453 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 3: to actually say the phrase schedule shutdown complete because it 454 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 3: was an unusual phrase. It's a weird phrase, and so 455 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 3: I could then use it as a hook to tell 456 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 3: my brain when an hour later it was like we 457 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 3: gotta worry about our thesis or where everything is following apart, 458 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 3: I would say I said that weird phrase, And there 459 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 3: is no way I would have said that phrase unless 460 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 3: I'd actually checked everything was comfortable. We're done shutting down, 461 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 3: And so the shutdown routine became like a key way 462 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 3: for me to actually resist rumination. And what happens with 463 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 3: shutdown routines is that you have to deploy the conversation 464 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 3: a lot at first. At first you have to say 465 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 3: to yourself a lot, no, no, no, I'm not going 466 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 3: to get into this. I did the shutdown routine. But 467 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 3: over time it trains your brain just not try the 468 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 3: ruminations in the first place, and the level of professional 469 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 3: rumination post work really reduces. 470 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: And so then you can just kind of relax on 471 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: the commute home. Then if you know that the shutdown. 472 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 3: Is, it's so fantastic and you can put on like 473 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,959 Speaker 3: a podcast and just yeah, Like, I had a very 474 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 3: hard day yesterday with concrete right because I'm still recovering 475 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 3: from the sickness, and I had five I consolidate a 476 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: lot of stuff when I'm on campus into the same 477 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 3: day five meetings. Boom boom boom. This is not my hat, 478 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 3: you know me, Laura, My happy place is not five meetings. 479 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 3: My happy place meet yeah, right right, So this just 480 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 3: exhausts me. Right, my voice is going, I'm just really tired. 481 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 3: I do my shutdown routine and then I was like, okay, 482 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 3: I had saved for my drive home. I was like, 483 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 3: the Rewatchables podcast is doing the Blair Witch Progress project 484 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 3: and my movie Guy and it's October first, I'm a 485 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: Halloween guy, and I could just give into that, and 486 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 3: thirty minutes of just enjoying my drive home, the shutdown 487 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 3: routine made all the difference. 488 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 2: Made all the difference. 489 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: And you have to think about movies and something else. 490 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: So Cal, I wonder if you could tell us, you know, 491 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,239 Speaker 1: part of the tagline of this show is taking our 492 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: days from great to awesome? So what is something that 493 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: you have done lately to take a day from great 494 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: to awesome? Obviously, listening to that podcast on the commute 495 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: home was probably a good thing. I wonder if you've 496 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: got anything else fun you've done lately. 497 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 3: I've been more willing this fall to take things off 498 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 3: my plan for the day, and I, you know, I 499 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 3: get I get into this mode sometimes more than others. 500 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 3: Where I've been I've been more willing to say, you 501 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 3: know what, what if we just stopped today at two? 502 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 3: You know what if we watched the movie this morning? 503 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 3: And I've been doing a little bit more of that. 504 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 3: I think I was inspired by thinking about these ideas. 505 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 3: In my last book, Slow Productivity. I had this whole 506 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 3: part about working at a natural pace. I've been doing 507 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 3: that a lot this fall. It's just it's it's been 508 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 3: a busy fall. It's been a hard fall, and I've 509 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 3: been reacting to the hardness by going easier on myself. 510 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 3: And I don't know, a random Wednesday just saying I'm 511 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 3: gonna call it. I'm going to call here and not 512 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 3: in a haphazard way. I'm going to do a shutdown routine. 513 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: I've covered my bases. I'm not being negligent here. But 514 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 3: instead of making progress on this, I'm just gonna go 515 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 3: for a walk. I'm going to watch a movie I've 516 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 3: that has been useful to me. Counterbalancing the hard, the 517 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 3: unusually hard with the unusually easy balances everything out in 518 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 3: the end. 519 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: I am a big fan of taking a longer break 520 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: in the middle of the day. I mean, especially if 521 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: people do wind up doing some work outside of normal 522 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: working hours for whatever reason, moving those tiles around is 523 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: just really helpful. I mean, like I've been sometimes taking 524 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: a long lunch break and going and having a picnic somewhere, 525 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: like in a botanical garden near my house, and it's 526 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: a great, like just way to celebrate the middle of 527 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: the day. I mean, there's a real reason for it, 528 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: but it definitely makes me return feeling a little bit 529 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: more refreshed. 530 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 3: Well, I always say it's it is arbitrary. I mean, 531 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 3: if you're working, for whatever, an eight hour day or 532 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 3: something like that, like you can get a lot of 533 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 3: stuff done, But the idea that that duration is exactly 534 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 3: the right amount of time to get done exactly what 535 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 3: you need to get done, is preposterous. Right, Clearly, there's 536 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 3: way more than you can do than you're ever going 537 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 3: to have time to do. Right, you could work twelve 538 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 3: hours a day I still want to get done. You 539 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 3: could work five hours day, it's not going to get done. 540 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 3: So this idea that if I don't fill these arbitrary 541 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 3: hours completely with effort, then I'm going to fall short 542 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 3: of some sort of goal is just preposterous. That's not 543 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 3: how these things work. What you're trying to do is 544 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 3: make progress on the things that are important consistently while 545 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 3: trying to make sure that the non like the urgent, 546 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 3: annoying things don't drown you. Right, that's the game, and 547 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 3: that game doesn't have to require a very consistent pace, 548 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 3: a very consistent number of hours. I write about it 549 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 3: in the book, write the new book. I have the 550 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 3: whole thing about having much more variation and intensity over 551 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 3: different time scales is what we're wired to do. So 552 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 3: I'm been a big fan of actually implementing that. 553 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 2: Sounds good. 554 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,959 Speaker 1: Well, is there any thing that you are particularly looking 555 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: forward to? It sounds like Halloween might might be a 556 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: big thing in your household. 557 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, big, big Halloween, big Halloween guy. 558 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 559 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,239 Speaker 3: So it's it's we're recording this on the second this 560 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: next few days. I'll start. I start by putting out 561 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: the base lights, right, so it requires twenty five different 562 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 3: like wiring electronics elements. I have it all sort of inventory. 563 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 3: I have two sets of lights that are computer controlled. 564 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: I built my own computer controllers for those lights. And 565 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: then there's a bunch of spot lights and motivated lighting effects. 566 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 3: So I'm gonna start getting that out and then we 567 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 3: bring out our figures. We're doing a ghost town theme 568 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 3: this year, so I'm excited. 569 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: My goodness, like six foot tall ghosts in the yard. 570 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 2: I mean, what are we talking here? 571 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: Are? 572 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 3: So? I usually use skeletons as my base for all 573 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 3: of the different scenes. This year, the new thing I 574 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 3: tried is working with pink foam to actually do carvings, 575 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 3: and so I made a multi level water sluice so 576 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 3: that the prospectors can be have like a water sluice 577 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 3: that they're at the skeleton prospectors. 578 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 2: That sounds awesome. I want to trigger trade at your house. 579 00:26:58,280 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: Well, Cal, thank you so much for joining us. 580 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 2: Where where can our listeners find you? 581 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 3: So you can My podcast is called Deep Questions. You 582 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 3: can find that wherever you do podcast. You can find 583 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 3: out more about me and my books at Calmnewport dot com. 584 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 3: I don't do social media, however, so you're not going 585 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,239 Speaker 3: to find much of me on there. 586 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: Sounds good. Well, Cal, thank you so much for joining us. 587 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: Be sure to check out his books and if you 588 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: have feedback on this or any other episodes before Breakfast. 589 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: Feel free to reach out to me at Laura at 590 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: Laura vandercam dot com and in the meantime, this is Laura. 591 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and here's to. 592 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: Making the most of our time. 593 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, 594 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura 595 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. 596 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from US iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, 597 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.