1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcomed to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Wilson and I'm Holly Fry and today we're 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: gonna talk about the Middle Ages, but maybe not as 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: you expect. Yeah, I think most people think of the 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: Middle Ages and they get a very kind of European 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: view because their mind conjures those images. Well, especially since 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: I've been looking at sort of the numbers of where 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: our listeners are overwhelmingly United States, and if you add 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: in like the UK, Australia and Canada, that's NS and 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: I would imagine that giant chunk of listeners has probably 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: mostly heard about the Middle Ages in the context of Europe, 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: which did give us some pretty cool things like the 14 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: Book of Kills in the Bayou Tapestry, both of which 15 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: have episodes in the archive. Also Courtly Love, Baowulf, Canterbury Tales, 16 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: Song of Roland, lots of interesting and cool literal nature 17 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: and art and architecture. But really, other than that, the 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: Middle Ages have this reputation for being this depressed, war 19 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: torn disease written, generally filthy part of history that borrowed 20 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: most of its advancements from other cultures, and then on 21 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: top of that there were the Crusades and the Black Death. 22 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: So while interesting things happened, very few people, if they 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: could time travel would be like Middle Ages or where 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: it's that for me totally going there. But so number one, 25 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: that's that perception is not really true of the entirety 26 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: of the Middle Ages. And number two, that really was 27 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: the situation in Europe. The same period of time was 28 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: really different for other parts of the world. And today 29 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the Hand Period in Japan, 30 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: which spanned from seven ninety four to eleven eighty five, 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: so kind of a chunk right in the middle of 32 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages. The Hand Period started when Japan moved 33 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: its capital from Nara, which is the nation's first permanent capital, 34 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: to hay On q which later became Q two. During 35 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: this period, China had a really heavy influence on Jack 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: and his culture, and we have a really good idea 37 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: of what that culture was like, especially within the context 38 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: of the Imperial court, thanks to a woman known as 39 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: say Shonagone, and she served as a lady in waiting 40 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: to the Emphassis court and kept a book of observations 41 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: and lists and other authorited snippets that were about her 42 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: time there. That's what we're going to talk about today. 43 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: So people who keep asking for more royalty, here you go. 44 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: We have some more royalty, but maybe not the royalty 45 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: that you were expecting. Well, but we've also gotten requests 46 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: for non European royalty in need covering it. Yes, uh so, 47 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: just for backgrounds, say, shonagone was born around nine and 48 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: that isn't actually her name. Shonagon is a rank which 49 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: means minor counselor, and say is a reference to her 50 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: father's name. So what her actual name that her family 51 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: called her at birth was is completely unclear in the 52 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: historical record. Yeah, we do know who her father was. 53 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: Her father was Kiowara Noe Moto Suke. He was a 54 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: prominent and highly respected poet and a minor public official. 55 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: We're not totally sure who her mother was, though one 56 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: contemporaneous source suggests it was a woman named Hagaki who 57 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: was a poet and possibly also a prostitute. But in 58 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: spite of having one or possibly two poet parents, Shanagan 59 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: didn't really have a reputation for being a good poet herself, 60 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: and she insisted herself that she was terrible at poetry. 61 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: Another prominent writer at the time, Murasaki Shikiboo, author of 62 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: The Tale of Genji, which most people have heard of, uh, 63 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: seems not to have liked her, writing in her own 64 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: diary that Shanagan was gifted but presumptuous and was basically 65 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: a frivolous woman who liked put on airs. As a 66 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: side note, Murasaki Shikiboo also served in the court of 67 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: Empress Shoshi, who was empressa She's rival, and that's a 68 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: whole story that we're going to get into, and you're 69 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: gonna get the the backstory on that bit of drama 70 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: coming up, yes, because there is a lot of dramatic 71 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: conflict in this story. In Shanagan went to serve in 72 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: the court of Empress Tashi, who we just mentioned. She 73 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: was also known as Empress Sodoko. Some accounts say that 74 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: Shanagon had been married and divorced before entering service, and 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: that her only other two options at that point were 76 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: either to join a Buddhist convent or to remarry. We 77 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: don't really know if that's completely accurate, but regardless of 78 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: the reason, she wound up serving in court for about 79 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: ten years, and she documented a lot of that time 80 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: in her pillow book, and in Japanese this book pillow book, 81 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: is known as Makura nososhi or random pillow notes. And 82 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: Shonagon started writing hers towards the end of her time 83 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: at court. But there's a story to how this actually happened. 84 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: Paper was at that time really expensive. Shonagon wrote that 85 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: the menace star of the Center, whose name was Corey Chica, 86 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: who was also Taci's brother, brought the Empress a gift 87 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: of paper and asked her what book she would like 88 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: to have copied onto it. Shanagan said that they should 89 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: make it a pillow And there's all kinds of academic 90 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: discussion about what she actually meant by that, whether it 91 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: was a joke or a pun, or whether it referred 92 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: to pillar pillow books that people kept as a matter 93 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: of course, or whether it referred to the hard pillows 94 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: that people in Japan were using at that time. But regardless, 95 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: tacI gave shown a go in the paper, and showing 96 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: a Goan wrote whatever she wanted to on it. And 97 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: there's been a fair amount of debate about whether shan 98 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: Agon ever intended for her work to be read by 99 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 1: other people, or if it was just for her. Uh. 100 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: Given how expensive paper was, and that this paper was 101 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: actually given to the Empress to provide her with a 102 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: book for her own library, there's, you know, a logical 103 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: conclusion that what Shanagan wrote was always supposed to be public. 104 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: The writing itself also has a tone that hints that 105 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: there was a reader in mind. It wasn't just personal 106 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: inward reflections, uh, in diary form like people would normally 107 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: write if they thought no one was going to look 108 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: at it. Right. But at the same time, Seanagan also 109 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: wrote about being extremely embarrassing, uh when somebody took the 110 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: book and then pass it around at court. In the 111 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: section called it is getting so dark, which is how 112 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: the addition that I have of it concludes. She also 113 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: says that she regrets that the book ever came to light. 114 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: The end product of this gift of paper and Shana 115 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: gons writing is a collection of observations, poems, lists, and 116 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 1: other really interesting snippets of life at court. It's part diary, 117 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: it's part commonplace book. To some degree, it's an essay collection, 118 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: and one d and sixty four of the things in 119 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: the book are just lists, lists of hateful things, depressing things, things, 120 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: things that make one's heartbeat faster, regrettable things, and some 121 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: of these lists are really just uncannily evocative. Yeah, today, 122 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: how all of these different things are arranged in the 123 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: edition that you read really varies wildly depending on the 124 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: translation and how it's been edited. We don't really know 125 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: how they were originally presented, because all of the surviving 126 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: editions of this book are copies from at least five 127 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: hundred years after Shanaghan's death, So you can get a 128 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: really different experience depending on how the person doing the 129 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: editing has arranged all these different bits. And in spite 130 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: of you know, these outstanding questions of how it originally 131 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: was arranged and ordered, uh, the book has survived in 132 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: one form or another for more than one thousand years, 133 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: and today it's considered both a work of art and 134 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: a historical document. One of the first episodes that Holly 135 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: and I worked on together was on Marjorie Kemp and 136 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: her autobiography, which gave a lot of insight into middle 137 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: class life in medieval England, and similarly, shann Aghans Pillow 138 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,119 Speaker 1: Book has become a primary source of nation about court 139 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: life and hay On Japan. Her book, as we said before, 140 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: covers about ten years that she spent in service there, 141 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: so the basics on the environment of the book. The 142 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: Empress and her ladies in waiting spent a lot of 143 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: their time in a salon behind screens, curtains, grates, and 144 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: wall hangings that were all meant to keep men and 145 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: strangers from seeing them. So they spent a lot of 146 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: time within the confines of these portable curtains that kept 147 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: them from view, and they wore layers of dresses and 148 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: robes with skirts and pants underneath. Yeah. I think if 149 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: you look at historical pictures sometimes you'll see the many, 150 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: many robes one on top of each other and say, 151 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: I always think, who that looks beautiful, while other people go, 152 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: I could never live in that. Yeah. Well, it was 153 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: also a progression of of fashion, like it had sort 154 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: of started as address with comfy pants under and then 155 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: gradually the fashion trended toward more and more layers, and 156 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: because you had to show more and more beautiful and 157 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: expensive of in luxurious fabric. Yes, that was the whole point. 158 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: I get so excited. Yeah, there are several things in 159 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: this book that are totally a poly's alley. In addition 160 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: to the pretty fabric their stuff about sewing and cats. Unsurprisingly, 161 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: there's also a big focus on manners and etiquette and gossip. 162 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: And on that last point, Shanaghan's opinion was that people 163 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: should not be angry when they are gossiped about, because 164 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: they also gossip about other people. So basically, don't dish 165 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: it out if you cannot take it. That's kind of 166 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: my stance, but also just that that's part of the 167 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: contract you make being part of a society that people 168 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: will discuss other people. And it's not even always in 169 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: a negative way, because some people really abhor the concept 170 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: that other people are talking about them when they're not present. Yeah, 171 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: we had that's going to happen. That's just part of 172 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: the deal living with other people. We had a whole 173 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: episode on the culture of gossip in our prior podcast. 174 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: So many of the passages in this book detail the 175 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: comings and goings of the Emperor and Empress and the 176 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: other officials uh and whatnot from the courts. There are 177 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: also religious observances noted in it, the primary religious influences 178 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: being Buddhism and Shinto. Days of abstinence are noted and 179 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: all kinds of just everyday happenings. One of the themes 180 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: that comes across in the Pillow Book that's also common 181 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: in writing about royal and aristocratic life in the West 182 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: is that it can be deeply painfully boring. There's a 183 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: lot of coming up with something to do just to 184 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 1: have something to do, and ladies would sometimes do things 185 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: like go on religious pilgrimage more for the sake of 186 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: having an outing than for their own spiritual development. So 187 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: some of the things that she documents in this book 188 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: lots and lots of festivals and rituals. For example, the 189 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: first month after the new year at all kinds of 190 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: festivals and celebrations. One of these was the Festival of 191 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: Blue Horses, which was a tradition that they borrowed from China. 192 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: Uh and that is a parade of twenty one horses 193 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: for the emperor, which sounds sort of beautiful. Originally these 194 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: horses had been gray, but by the time of Shanagones writing, 195 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: white horses were actually used, and white is the color 196 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: of purity in the Shinto religion, and the gray horses 197 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: were also too rare for that to really be a 198 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: doable thing to herd up twenty one of them to 199 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: parade along. Yeah, the idea of twenty one incredibly rare 200 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: horses is nice and fury why that would be a 201 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: parade honoring a high official. There's also the Festival of 202 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: Full Moon Gruel, and that is when people of the 203 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: court would conceal gruel sticks about their persons to hit 204 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: one another with. This came from a belief that being 205 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: hit in the thighs with the stick that was used 206 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: to stir the gruel would lead a woman to give 207 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: birth to a baby boy. And this is a tradition 208 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: that wasn't unique to the Imperial Court, and it continued 209 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: in more rural parts of Japan for a really long time. 210 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: I'm just processing the whack a mole element of like 211 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: determining your baby's sex well, and also of that you're 212 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: concealing a stick and your sleeve or whatever so that 213 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: you can whack people with it, And yes, the good 214 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: thing to do well, but it's it's really only in 215 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: some contexts is a good thing. There's a whole passage 216 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: about the scandalous nous of of when a gentleman whacked 217 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: a lady with the girls stick. That was not okay, 218 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: It's like um baby predict or fight club. Yes. Uh. 219 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: Also noted in this book are hookups speaking of where 220 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: babies come from, there were many, many hookups. Uh. There 221 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,239 Speaker 1: is a passage which is entitled it is so stifling 222 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: lee Hot, and it starts out being about how hot 223 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: it is, which prompts everyone to leave their blinds and 224 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: sliding doors open, and then it quickly she has to 225 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: talking about a number of lovers sneaking away in the 226 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: morning in full view of everybody thanks to the heat 227 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: causing all of those doors to be open. Yeah, that's 228 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: not the only place that that comes up in the book. 229 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: From her list of depressing things, one of the ms 230 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: is it is quite late at night and a woman 231 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: has been expecting a visitor. Hearing finally a stealthy tapping, 232 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: She sends her maid to open the gate and lies 233 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: waiting excitedly. But the name announced by the maid is 234 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: that of someone with whom she has absolutely no connection. 235 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: Of all the depressing things, this is by far the worst, 236 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: and from her list of hateful things, an admirer has 237 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: come on a clandestine visit, but a dog catches sight 238 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: of him and starts barking. One feels like killing the beasts. Really, 239 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: A lot of the hateful things are about male visitors 240 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: making noise or otherwise drawing attention to themselves, or acting 241 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: in a way that was coarse or unseemly. None of 242 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: this is really surprising considering that a lot of the 243 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: interior walls in the palaces were basically paper partitions in 244 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: bamboo screens. So while all of these hookups were happening 245 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: and everyone knew that they were happening, they were also 246 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: meant to be happening discreet, making the need for silence 247 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: and discretion very important. So if you were a guy 248 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: and you rattle the screen on your way out, people 249 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: would be yes. Overall, the lists of depressing and hateful 250 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: things are quite long, but big chunks of them are 251 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: kind of mundane and a little bit petulant, and they 252 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: sum out to Tracy describes it as they are out 253 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: of salted caramel at Starbucks that today is the worst 254 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: day ever. Like they're really just complaints about pretty mundane happenings. Yeah, 255 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: one of the hateful things is one is just about 256 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: to be told some interesting piece of news when a 257 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: baby starts crying. They're kind of ridiculous and awesome and 258 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: also ridiculous petulant, but there are also other much less 259 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: awful uh things in them. One of the depressing things 260 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: is a lying in room when the baby has died, 261 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: so obviously that has a much greater emotional depth than 262 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: just complaining about things like noise. Another is a lengthier 263 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: description of someone who has gathered his family to wait 264 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: with him on the day when the official appointments are made, 265 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: but he does not get one, and they all gradually 266 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: leave in ones and twos until he's all alone. So 267 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: they were expecting good news and did not get it. Yeah, 268 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: there are things on on the lists that are legitimately 269 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: bad and not just kind of finding bad um. The 270 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: unsuitable Things list, though, is particularly revealing of aristocratic attitudes 271 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: about the lower classes. One of the unsuitable things is 272 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: snow on the houses of common people. This is especially 273 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: regrettable when moonlight shines down on it. This is because 274 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: those common people and air quotes could not fully appreciate 275 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: how lovely all of that was, and so therefore the 276 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: moon shining on snow was wasted beauty, which is an 277 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: offensive idea. It is well, it also sort of auto 278 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: discredits writer like to say that it was wasted because 279 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: she's enjoying it, you know. But it's not a poor 280 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: person's house, Holly, It's still pretty. There's also love mentioned 281 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: in this book, and things that cannot be compared. It 282 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: goes from the relatively prosaic summer and winter, night and day, 283 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: rain and sunshine too. When one has stopped loving somebody, 284 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: one feels that he has become someone else, even though 285 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: he is still the same person. The book also shows 286 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: a lot of communicating with people through poetry. In many situations, 287 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: direct communication was socially unacceptable, but exchanging poems was totally allowed, 288 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: so people would veil what they wanted to say in 289 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: poetry and send their thoughts that way. One of the 290 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: lists in the book is also just a list of 291 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: poetic subjects. Also, games and other amusements are mentioned, like 292 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: backgammon or the Chinese board game Go or building a 293 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: giant mountain of snow as high as they possibly could 294 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: in winter, so kind of joyous fun activities. There are 295 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: also many many descriptions of plants and flowers, so what's 296 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: in bloom, what's growing? What the foliage looks like. Similarly, 297 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: there are descriptions of beautiful fabrics, art, and clothing. There's 298 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: really a huge focus on what is beautiful and what 299 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: brings shown and gown delight, and a lot of these 300 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: descriptions tie in closely, of course, to Japanese aesthetics. There's 301 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: a a which is a sort of pathos or emotional 302 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: response that comes from fading beauty, like scattering cherry blossoms 303 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: or the fading noise of a bell, things of that nature. 304 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: And there's also okashi, which relates to a more fleeting 305 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: delight or pleasure. And the Pillow Book overall is more 306 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: about okashi than aware. Yeah, if we've mentioned the Tale 307 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: of Genji earlier, that one is more about the sad part, 308 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: especially by the end um, and so as the comparison goes, 309 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: this is sort of the happy elements of court life, 310 00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: mostly as opposed to the tragically sad, despairing ones that 311 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: are more present in the Tale of Kenji. Maybe the 312 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: most say show Negon East passage in This Whole Thing 313 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: comes at the end of a passage about how much 314 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: she loves the hototo gisu, which is a type of bird. 315 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: She says, and I do not love the hot to 316 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: gi suit alone. Anything that cries out at night delights me. 317 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: Except babies. We have both the things that delight her 318 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: and the fact that she could be kind of petty 319 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: and the things that annoyed her. She seemed to not 320 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: be big on the baby. And before we talk about 321 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: the sort of circumstances that led to the end of 322 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: this court life for showing a going, let's take a 323 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: minute and talk about our sponsor. Now back to the 324 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: story of Say shown agone. So sadly the story of 325 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: Say shown a goon in her pillow book does not 326 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: have a very happy ending. We talked about how Say 327 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: Shanagon was in service to the Empress Taishi and Uh. 328 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: The Empress had become consort to Emperor Ichiju when she 329 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: was fourteen and he was ten, and during this period 330 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: the Fujiwara clan was heavily influential in Japanese politics. Women 331 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: from the Fujiwara clan would marry the emperor and then 332 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: their fathers would rule as regents and chancellors. The emperor 333 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: was still the emperor, but the Fujiwaras were really running 334 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: the show. Yeah. Tihi's father, Fujiwara no Michi Taka, died 335 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: during an epidemic in and with his death, he She's 336 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: only real protection was her brother Koori Chika, but her 337 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: father's brother, Michi Naga, wanted his own children in power 338 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: and not his brother's children, and Michi Naga used his 339 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: political while to ease the reins away from Korachika. Then Uh, 340 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: Korachika wound up being exiled from the capital after an 341 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: escalating misunderstanding with an ex emperor who Korachika had thought 342 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: was making moves on his lady. So it was a 343 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: big romantic misunderstanding uh and this left Hashi with no 344 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: real backing at court, and it opened the door for 345 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: Mitchi Naga to position his own daughter, Fujiwara no Akiko 346 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: also known as Shoshi, as a new favorite to Emperor Ichijo. 347 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: So with the Fujiwara clan lined up against him, even 348 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: the Emperor could not really do much to help Taishi, 349 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: especially since the Empress Dowager his own mother, also joined 350 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: in encouraging him to favor show She instead. And even 351 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: though it was unheard of for one emperor to have 352 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: two empresses, Mitchi Naga successfully argued that Taishi and show 353 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: She could have two different titles and two different roles 354 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: in court. And that Emperor Ichijo was totally justified in 355 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: having them both so show. She came to the Imperial 356 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: Palace and was named second Empress in the year one thousand. 357 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: Say Shaunaghan's own loyalty during this time was called into 358 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: question because she had been fond of Meetingnaga before this 359 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: whole business started. And that year Tay she moved to 360 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: another palace because she was pregnant uh and this was tradition, 361 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: and Tay she had spent large parts of her two 362 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: other pregnancies elsewhere, but this time this all transpired while 363 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: she was clearly being pushed aside at court. And on 364 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: top of that, the other palace where she would normally 365 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: have gone during a pregnancy had burned down, and instead 366 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: she had to stay in the home of a senior steward, 367 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: which obviously paled in comparison to a second palace that 368 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: she could visit. Her ladies in waiting started to leave 369 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: her service, and she ended up dying in childbirth, and 370 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: she was only twenty four at the time. Most of 371 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: Shanagan's actual writing of the Pillow Book happened during this 372 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: period of instability, although it's hard to see that in 373 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: the text, even if you already knew that part of 374 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: story and are looking for it. So while a lot 375 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: of the Pillow Book gives us a window into the 376 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: life of Imperial Court during t She's glory days, it's 377 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: not so much an actual reflection of the real political 378 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: situation that was going on while Shaunagan was physically writing it. 379 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: And say Shawnagon died around ten five, basically nothing is 380 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: known about the time between when she left the court 381 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: and when she died, although the lore is that she 382 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: was lonely and miserable because she had been so catty 383 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: and uh kind of petulant at court. In the rest 384 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: of Japan, the Fujiwara clan's influence started to wane in 385 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: the middle eleven hundreds. Then in eleven eighty five, one 386 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: of the most powerful warrior clans called the Genji, defeated 387 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: another powerful clan and also their main rivals, that hey k. 388 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: The Genji then established the first Showgun government, and the 389 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: Showgun military rule over Japan lasted until eighteen sixty seven. 390 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: In today, UH to sort of liken it to modern life, 391 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: sometimes people like to say that shown Aging is really 392 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: the first blogger UH. And they also sometimes like to 393 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: say that the Pillow Book is the first tumbler, which 394 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: makes a bit of sense. Yeah, considering how much trying 395 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: to identify ancient concepts with modern yeah happening, considering how 396 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: much of it is sort of random stuff put together 397 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: and in no real order as she saw it, uh together. Um, 398 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: and and kind of an amusing side note when when 399 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: I the day that I started doing the research for 400 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: this podcast, and you know, I typed, say, showing aging 401 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: into my search bar, you know how like a Wikipedia 402 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,239 Speaker 1: result will come up to the right of your search results. Um, 403 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: it was, you know, blah blah, say shown ago and 404 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: blah blah. I wrote the Pillow Book. And then it 405 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: said she was also kind of a b except it 406 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: didn't say b h. That has since been edited out 407 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: of the Wikipedia are too well, so it doesn't say 408 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: that anymore. So this was probably because she was opinionated, 409 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: and she teased people who got their etiquettes and ceremony wrong. 410 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: She was really pretty scornful of the lower classes. And 411 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: you know, her book is full of these lists of 412 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: hateful and depressing and annoying things that a lot of 413 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: people on Twitter would probably hashtag first world problems. Yeah, 414 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: definitely speaking from a position of privilege yet being annoyed 415 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: by things that are really not real issues. I had 416 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: forgotten how how really a lot of the things that 417 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: are in her list to like me, Like, it had 418 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: been fifteen or so years since I read the whole book, 419 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: and when I reread it, I I really I had 420 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: forgotten how many of the lists of things are extremely 421 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: funny to me. Yeah, they're one, they're hilarious viewed through 422 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: a modern lens. But also it's just I can't help 423 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: but picturing this woman just sitting there in the salon 424 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: kind of recording these random things like, man, my gossip 425 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: got interrupted. Yeah, and it becomes very very witty in 426 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: its own And one of the translations about the uh, 427 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: what you know, you're getting ready to hear something interesting 428 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: is and then the baby starts crying. One of the 429 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: other translations of it is that specifically, you were talking 430 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: to the mother of the baby and she is about 431 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: to tell you something interesting and her baby starts crying, 432 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: which is even more like pointed in the whole Hatred 433 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: of Babies. Um. If you are interested in reading this book, 434 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: I highly recommend unless you are already really well steeped 435 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: in Japanese culture and particularly Japanese culture during this period. 436 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: I recommend getting one that has roughly as many notes 437 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: as the book is long. Yeah, like UH. Mine that 438 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: I have is edited by Ivan Morris, and it is 439 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: almost the same length of text versus notes. Um. And 440 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: it is that one also excludes some of the more 441 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,959 Speaker 1: really really mundane lists that are like lists of nouns. 442 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: I don't think that's a real one, but um, that 443 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: one includes mostly the more evocative lists. So that is 444 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: the story of say, shown a goon, and a little 445 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: glimpse of what aristocratic imperial court life was like uh 446 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: in Japan, while, as my medieval literature professor said, when 447 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: I was in college, while Europe was having fleas and 448 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: wearing skins. And on that note, do you also have 449 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: a bit of listener mail for us? We're gonna do 450 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: something a little different with listener mail today. We were 451 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: taking a page out of the book of Katie and 452 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: Sarah past hosts thing of Patty, similar listener mail encounter. 453 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: We're gonna read these without the names on because I'm 454 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: not in favor publicly shaming people, unlike say showing a goon. 455 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: He would publicly shame you all day. So he wait 456 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: a lot of mail about the podcast, and we read 457 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: all of it, and we think about whether the criticism 458 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: that people is leveling at us is something that we 459 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: need to address, and we hear are three that are 460 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: on the same subject. The first one is from our 461 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: Facebook wall and it says, ken y'all possibly go in 462 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: a different direction for a while, then look at this 463 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: person who we think is interesting, particularly in his slasher 464 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: struggle against oppression. It's getting a bit old, folks. The 465 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: answer to that is, now, we really could not. But 466 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: I did go back and look of the twenty most 467 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: recent episodes when we got this note twelve we're about 468 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: individual people, and three of those were two partyers, which 469 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: meant that we talked about nine individual people in twenty episodes. 470 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: Three of those struggled against adversity, or if you count 471 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: Filot Farnsworth who struggled against the corporation. Uh. And really 472 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 1: the bigger set of topics that you take, the smaller 473 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: that proportion gets. So my feeling is that people who 474 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: struggle against oppression are largely overlooked in history class and 475 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that we talked about them 476 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: on the podcast. Wow, Because, as we mentioned when you 477 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: and I were discussing it, as we know, histories written 478 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: by the victors so often, and those are not the 479 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: impressed people. Know, the people who have the mouthpiece are 480 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: usually the ones that weren't doing struggling not so we 481 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: have heard those stories already. There's still valid stories, but 482 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: we need to get to the ones that are on 483 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: the other side of it. Yeah. The next two are 484 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: are more directly tied in terms of what they are 485 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: asking about. The first one says, what's with all the 486 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: emphasis on gay, bisexual, transgender, etcetera history lately. I've been 487 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: listening to these podcasts for years, but it seems like 488 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: you have gotten very appreciate on this subject lately. Please 489 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: remember that half of the country still holds traditional marriage 490 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: as an ideal. That doesn't mean that we are haters, 491 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: are homophobes, but we get enough of the love that 492 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: dare not speak its name on the news and don't 493 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: relish being bombarded with it in our pleasure listening. This 494 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: is not our Facebook law. And there was further cindent, 495 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: part of which said, I'm not necessarily saying to avoid 496 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: all gay topics, but a little more odd activity would 497 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: be nice, and then the other one says, I'm a 498 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: longtime listener of the podcast that I've been listening since 499 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: the beginning and have not missed a single episode. I've 500 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: actually gone back and listened to at least a quarter 501 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: of the episode the second time. But lately I find 502 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: myself resisting the urge to skip a few of the 503 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: newer ones. I've never gone out of my way to 504 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: send a message that was not positive, but I feel 505 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: like I should say something. I respectfully resent the very 506 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: numerous podcast episodes lately that are related to gay people. 507 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: Sorry if I don't use the politically correct word for this. 508 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: I feel like gay people are always allowed to make 509 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: their opinion very clear, so why can't a straight person 510 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: I have an opinion to you? And that doesn't seem 511 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: fair that gay people can always say what they want 512 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: and are quick to accuse people, and then everyone else 513 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: is expected to just keep quiet. And then she went 514 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: on to talk about loving the podcast and sent us 515 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: some captures. So I sort of have a few points 516 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: on this. Number one is that, like I really did 517 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: go back and look to say, are we overwhelmingly representing 518 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: only one point of view? Um? And when we got 519 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: these the number of episodes that were about gay people, 520 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: it was like a tiny minority. We did have some 521 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: listener mail. It was specifically related to our Jane Adams episode, 522 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: and that happens with every episode that we have. We 523 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: generally get listener listener mail about it that we follow 524 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: up on at a later time, so that's really not 525 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: out of the ordinary. It's also not really out of 526 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: the ordinary for the podcast to talk about, um, the 527 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: gay community, like that's been part of the podcast since always, 528 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: so it is not a new thing talking about gay people, 529 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: the gay community, and other marginalized groups. It's really not 530 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: a new thing for the podcast. Like I just said, 531 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: neither us doing episodes that are about people. Although I 532 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: understand if you prefer to hear about historical events rather 533 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: than individual people, that could become tiresome. It's kind of 534 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: a matter of taste. But I kind of want to 535 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: just put this out there. Number one is you can 536 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 1: say anything you want that's allowed, but speech as consequences. 537 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: So if we say things that are offensive to other people, 538 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: people will call us on that, and that's the consequence 539 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: of the speech that we have made. UM. If someone 540 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: else says something that someone else finds offensive. That's the 541 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: same rule. We also talk about a lot of different 542 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: subjects on this podcast. We talk about gay people and 543 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: straight people. We talk about religious people and atheists. We 544 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: talked about married people and divorced people. We talk about 545 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: capitalists who literally bought up tuberculosis santatoriums and tore them 546 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: down so that people with tuberculosis could not go there, 547 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: uh and impoverished people who died because of their own 548 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: governments in action. We also talk about people who were 549 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,479 Speaker 1: celibate for religious and spiritual reasons, and people who had 550 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: non monogamous relationships. We've talked about everyone from social workers 551 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: to teachers and people who made atomic bombs. Frankly, when 552 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: I am coming up with a new topic of a podcast, 553 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: usually this first question question that I asked myself, is 554 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: what have we not talked about lately? And I try 555 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: to start there. It is anything, and and that is 556 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: how we are trying to be objective, not by excluding 557 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: any particular group of people or point of view in 558 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: favor of other groups of people in points of view, 559 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: but to select broadly from broad people and broad points 560 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: of view and broad people in places and times and 561 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: all of that. It's sort of like throwing a dart 562 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: at the board of we're somewhere we haven't gone lately. Yeah, 563 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: move there to that place. Yeah. So I empathize with 564 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: people who find it offensive to hear about things that 565 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: they don't agree with. I grew up in a very 566 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: conservative household, very conservative community. I get that, and I empathize. 567 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: But we are not going to discount whole swaths of 568 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: the population and whole pieces of history because of the 569 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: possibility of causing offense to the people. We're going to 570 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: try to select diverse content to talk about in these subjects. 571 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: That's basically what I have to say about that, all right, 572 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: that is my dieter. Uh yeah, I mean you've said 573 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: it all and better than I would. Again, you know, 574 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: these are the people that didn't get talked about in 575 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: history class because they were marginalized. So some of those 576 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: are going to bubble up because those are stories that 577 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: have not been told and should everybody's story. Elsa Lanchester 578 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: made a great too, I'll loop it back to the podcast. 579 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: A great comment once that every single person you meet 580 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: probably has a really interesting history and an interesting life story, 581 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: but we don't get to hear most of them. Uh 582 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: So I'm always preaching it for anybody's and everybody's life 583 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: story because there's always a nugget of really fascinating stuff, 584 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: so open to all of them. Yes, so sometimes we 585 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: will be talking about lots of different people and communities 586 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: and times and places, all of that. That is our goal, 587 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: and to represent all of those people fairly and compassionately, 588 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: if sometimes making fun of their foibles, like when the 589 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: fact that they're petulant, the fact that you're complaining about 590 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: babies crying when your love is trying sneak out. Uh okay. So, 591 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: if you would like to write to us about this 592 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: or any other topic, or tell us we are awful 593 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: for what we just said. We're on Facebook at facebook 594 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: dot com slash history class stuff and on Twitter at 595 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: mist in History. Are tumbler is mist in history dot 596 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: tumbler dot com, and we are also on Pinterest. Our 597 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: email addresses History podcast at Discovery dot com. If you 598 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: would like to learn more about another element of Japanese 599 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: culture and one that was really getting its start during 600 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: the time period we talked about, you can come to 601 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: our website and search the word geisha and you will 602 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: find how geisha work. You can learn all that and 603 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: a whole lot more at our website, which is how 604 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands 605 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: of other topics. Because it has stuff works dot com. 606 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: Audible dot com is the leading provider of downloadable digital 607 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: audio books and spoken word entertainment. Audible has more than 608 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand titles to choose from to be downloaded 609 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: to your iPod or MP three player. Go to audible 610 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: podcast dot com slash history to get a free audio 611 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 1: book download of your choice when you sign up today.