WEBVTT - What's Next in the Derek Chauvin Case 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law, with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:11.880 We the jury in the above ententitled matter as to 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.560 count one unintentional second degree murder while committing a felony 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:19.000 fying the defendant guilty. This verdict agreed to this twentieth 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:24.000 day of April PM, and as that guilty verdict for 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:26.920 the murder of George Floyd was read in the Minneapolis 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.960 courtroom and broadcast to the country. Former police officer Derek 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.960 Chauvin showed no reaction to his conviction, but outside the 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:42.080 heavily fortified and guarded courthouse, the crowd erupted and cheers 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:45.280 at the announcement of guilt on all three charges, and 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.120 there was uniform praise for the verdict from people in 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:52.760 all walks of life. From George Floyd's brother, Felonis Gustus 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:57.040 bad Me freedom fall, to the President of the United 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:01.200 States as he saw in this trial. From the fellow 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:05.600 police officers who testified most when men and women aware 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:10.520 the Badge served their communities honorably, but those few who 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.520 failed to meet that standard must be held accountable, and 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:17.840 they were. Today. Chauvin is facing up to forty years 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.360 in prison. And the Minneapolis Police Department is facing a 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:26.000 sweeping federal investigation. Joining me is David Harris, a professor 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.320 at the University of Pittsburgh Law School and author of 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:35.039 A City Divided, Race, Fear, and the Law in Police confrontations. David, 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.520 isn't an inflection point that at this trial a number 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:44.039 of police officers, including the chief of police, testified against Chauvin, 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.520 one of their own. Is this the crumbling of the 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:51.040 so called blue wall. It was very significant because usually, 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.000 as you say, this idea, the blue wall of silence 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:58.080 is that police officers never turn on and certainly don't 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.400 testify against their own in these kinds of cases, that 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.960 they always back each other up no matter what. And 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:10.000 here you had three police officers from the Minneapolis Police 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:14.200 Department to current high ranking officers, including the chief himself, 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:19.359 testifying against Chauvin. Now, this is very significant on two levels. 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.679 Number one is on the level of the case itself. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:27.000 It served to cut off the defense argument that somehow 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.600 Chauvin was acting within his training, that his actions were 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.560 within policy and so forth, And all three of the 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:38.160 officers said, oh no, definitely not. And therefore that crippled 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.000 the argument that the defense did make. But the larger 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.520 question is whether this shows that that blue wall will 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.000 crumble more generally. I think the jury has to be 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.919 out on that at this point. Certainly, seeing this right 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.440 out in front of the whole country gives an indication 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.840 of how important it is for police officials to say 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:04.680 out and direct no, this was wrong. But whether this 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.240 becomes some kind of a trend that we see in 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.920 a lot of other cases, I think still remains to 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.440 be seen. There is still a very strong current of thinking, well, 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.080 this Chauvin, he was just one bad guy in an 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:20.160 otherwise good department, in an otherwise good profession. Chauvin is 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.400 facing a maximum of forty years in prison and a 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.639 minimum of twelve and a half. Floyd's family and activists 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:33.200 are calling for the maximum sentence. How likely is that, Well, 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.720 in any sentencing, you look at both the crime and 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:42.360 the convicted descendant. The Chauvin's lawyers will no doubt argue 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:46.640 that he's been a policeman with a relatively good record 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.720 for nineteen years, and you know, there can be some 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.920 argument about whether that's true of his record, but they'll 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.760 argue that he should get the minimum sentence because this 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:02.040 is something that nobody could have foreseen he's not a 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:07.040 repeat offender. I don't think that's realistic, because the crime 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:13.440 itself showed what are called in Minnesota aggravating circumstances, and 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.599 that would be especially just the outright cruelty of what 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:22.400 happened out there in public. This was a situation where 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.600 a man did not need to die. This was not 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.040 a case in which the police officer could make and 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.800 we didn't hear it any argument. You know, he was 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.599 in fear for his life, like we often hear in 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:39.520 such cases. You often wonder looking at that video, is 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.000 this guy waiting in line for a sandwich at subway? 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.680 Is he trying to make a point to these people 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.120 who are yelling at him that he can do whatever 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.039 he wants. So I would expect the sentence to be 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:56.479 above the minimum. The system and the sentencing will respond 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:00.599 to the circumstances of the crime and the sendant. You 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.600 can make an argument that the crime was so cruel 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:09.240 and outrageous that it deserves the maximum sentence, but I 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.359 think there's going to be debate about that. I don't 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.799 expect the judge to give the minimum, but I would 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.320 be surprised if he gave the absolute maximum that was 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.320 out there. Chauvin's lawyer has been making a record for 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.800 his appellate case throughout the trial. What will some of 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:31.719 the appellate issues be. There will be appeals about jury issues. 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:36.800 We saw multiple times that Chauvin's lawyer asked that the 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:41.159 case be moved out of Hennepin County, multiple requests for 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:46.279 mistrial concerning information that was out in the public sphere, 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:51.560 particularly the announcement during jury selection that the family of 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.000 Mr Floyd was going to receive a very large settlement, 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.240 And we saw Judge Cahill actually take a couple of 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.320 the juror who had already been selected off the jury 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.920 panel when they told him they weren't sure that they 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.880 could stay on the jury and be fair. There are 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:11.120 also multiple issues about the admission of certain pieces of 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:15.040 evidence that will be contested by the defendant on appeal. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.800 Once you're convicted, it becomes hard to overturn a conviction 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.560 at every stage of the system. The higher up you 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.039 go and the farther along ago once you're convicted, the 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.640 harder it is to overturn a verdict. The three other 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.040 officers at the scene will be tried in August. Does 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:37.640 the conviction in this case have any impact on that trial? 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:43.480 Not directly. It doesn't say foreclosed the possibility that they 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:47.600 could be acquitted. They are charged with aiding and abetting 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.039 Derek shown, which in legal theory is the same as 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:55.240 being the main actor. But juries always have a sense 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:59.840 of proportion in my experience. They will know, for instance, 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:04.600 that one officer was standing up on the sidewalk blocking 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:08.960 people from what they fear might have been interference, though 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.200 he is an aider and a better allegedly under the 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.760 legal theory of the case, and therefore bears the same 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.520 responsibility of as the person who did the actual act. 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:24.280 Juries want a sense of proportional justice, and if they 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.440 think the system is reacting too harshly to a person 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.520 with a role that is not the same, the jury 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.520 may be more reluctant to convict for the same charges, 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:40.120 and prosecutors know this, so I wouldn't be surprised to 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:44.720 see some movement towards a plea agreement with these three defendants. 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.400 Coming up next, I'll continue this conversation with Professor David 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.600 Harris of the University of Pittsburgh Law School, and we'll 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.080 talk about the new Justice Department investigation into the Minneapolis 0:07:55.080 --> 0:08:09.080 Police Department Date Right, life mad Date Wright Life, Merit. 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:14.040 The trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin is over, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.280 but still to come is the trial of another former 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.559 police officer for the killing of Dante Wright, a twenty 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.480 year old black man shot during a traffic stop on 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:28.120 April eleven in suburban Minneapolis, and that city's police department 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.080 will now be the subject of a sweeping investigation by 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:36.040 the Justice Department. Here's Attorney General Merrick Garland. The investigation 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.480 I am announcing today. We'll assess whether the Minneapolis Police 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:45.520 Department engages in a pattern or practice of using excessive force, 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.760 including during protests. I've been talking to David Harris, a 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.600 professor at the University of Pittsburgh Law School. How significant 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:59.199 is this pattern and practice investigation? I think it's very important. Uh. 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.920 Here's why. A case like Chauvin's case, or the cases 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:08.280 of the other three officers, those are criminal actions against 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:15.760 individual people for particular acts that they did. In a 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:20.680 case like that, you're looking at individual facts to pursue 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:24.800 individualized justice, even though we are all looking at it 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:29.040 as a kind of referendum on police conduct. They are 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:34.960 fundamentally individual cases about individual actions on a particular day. 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:39.280 What the Justice Department has the authority to do is 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:44.240 under a federal statute called the Pattern or Practice Statute, 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:49.920 to go to a local police department and to say, 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:56.560 we will now be investigating you, uh for allegations that 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:00.960 your department, not Derek Schouve, not one of the other 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.239 three options, but your department is engaged in a pattern 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:10.440 of violating your citizens constitutional right. Now, a number of 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:13.920 important things are packed in there. Number one, the national 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.319 government in this country does not have authority to regulate 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:21.760 local policing. Our policing in this country is hyper localized. 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.800 The best that they have is the authority to see 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.240 that the constitution is obeyed, and that's what this statute 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.000 is based on. So they can go in and look 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:35.959 for violations of constitutional rights. The statute limits them to 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:40.720 looking for patterns, to looking for regular practices of violations. 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:44.760 In other words, even a terrible incident like the death 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:48.080 of George Floyd at the hands of Derek Chauvin wouldn't 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.320 be enough under this statute. It can't be one incident, 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.800 even one very bad one. It must be a pattern 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.680 of this that goes on all the time. Under that statute, 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.560 the Justice Department can come in do an investigation to 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:08.160 look for those patterns in anything that might impact constitutional rights, 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.400 so that can be used. Of course, it can be 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:15.240 search and seizures of other kinds like stopping frisk, like 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.079 traffic stops. It can be any number of things that 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:22.359 might violate people's constitutional rights. And if it finds those patterns, 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.760 it then goes to the city and the police department says, 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.319 here's what we found. We think you're violating your citizens 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:35.880 constitutional rights, and we propose that you make the following changes, 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.640 and if there is agreement, that agreement is then put 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.520 into something a document called a consent decree, which is 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.440 signed off on by a federal judge. Now, the real 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.560 importance of this is that instead of addressing one incident, 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.679 and addresses the full scope of police actions that are 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.920 found to be in violation of the constitution in that department. 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.640 In other words, it's targeted at the system at the 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:06.240 institutional level. Right, So if they find a pattern of 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:11.040 use to force violations, they will uh, they will uh 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:15.080 say we want you to retrain all your officers. We 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.840 want this to be the new standard within your police department. 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.440 It will have the following details and you will monitor 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.800 it in these ways. So these are systemic level changes 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:29.720 and it's the best and really only tool out there 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.800 that the federal government has for making those kind of changes. 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:38.400 So it is entirely appropriate to follow the Chawbn trial 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.280 with this kind of investigation to see is this the 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.120 problem of one person, as some people are saying, well, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.800 he was a bad apple, or is this a department 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.480 wide problems. In the last few years, there have been 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.920 as many as seven fatal shootings by police in the 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:02.800 Minneapolis area, So is it likely the feds will find 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.480 a pattern and practice? And I suspect they're going to 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:09.600 find that department wide pattern because data that was public 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.800 even at the time of George Boyd's death showed that 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:18.760 the Minneapolis police used force way disproportionately against people of 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.960 color and all kind of force, not just deadly forced, 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.680 but you know, using tasers, using fists or pepper spray 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.720 or clubs or whatever. So this is the right thing 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.160 for them to do to look into this, and it 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.200 is a signal that the Justice Department is going to 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:39.760 pick up this tool after letting it go and abandoning 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.480 it entirely. Under the Trump administration and under Attorney general 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:49.680 sessions have consent degrees changed police practices in past cases. Yes, 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.080 they worked, not all of them worked, and not all 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.000 of them had staying power. But I do think it's 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.280 fair to say that they were the best tool we had, 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.440 and often a very effective tool to go in and 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:07.559 address some of the worst police departments and get others 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.240 back on track. You know, they had to go into 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.920 the New Orleans Police department, not once, but twice. Here 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.160 in Pittsburgh where I am based, was the very first 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:22.040 consent to free back to two thousands and two, and 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.280 it transformed this police department, and it was a better 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.600 department for some years. But you know, as in all 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.400 police departments, city administrations changed, a new mayor comes in, 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.880 a couple of police chiefs. Down the line, the commitment 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.320 is not there, and a lot of the things that 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.000 were put into place a kind of atrophied didn't stick. 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.640 So it doesn't always work and fully transformed departments. But 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:48.920 there are many places where it has. I mean, a 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.840 good example is Cincinnati, which had a terrible set of 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.840 riots after the killing of Timothy Thomas back in two 0:14:55.880 --> 0:15:00.000 thousand and one. And that's still a different department. Remember 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.840 that there are knock on effects too. So when the 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.760 Justice Department comes into a police department in say Baltimore, Chicago, 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.160 or New Orleans or whatever, you've got police departments all 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.880 over that same region and all over the country saying, 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.680 you know what, I don't really want the eight hundred 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.840 pound guerilla in my office telling me they're gonna take 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:20.920 all my files. What do I have to do to 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.000 get better? How can I manage up to a better 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.480 standard so I don't have that. Everybody knows the Department 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:31.080 of Justice can't investigate all police departments. I think during 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:35.280 the entire Obama administration they did twenty five of these. 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.200 And you know, we have eighteen thousand police departments in 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:42.160 this country, so you're only going to get a small franction, 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.320 and hopefully they're the ones that really needed. That's Professor 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.560 David Harris of the University of Pittsburgh Law School coming up. Well. 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:58.520 The Supreme Court curb green card applications. This is Bloomberg 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:03.920 Law with June Brush from Bloomberg Radio. In oral arguments 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.800 this week, the Supreme Court suggest that it would block 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.600 green card applications of thousands of immigrants who entered the 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.760 country illegally but then secured temporary legal status because their 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.040 home nations are in crisis, like the Salvadoran couple in 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.600 the case, federal law requires Green card applicants to have 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.320 been quote inspected and admitted into the country, and some 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.800 of the justices appeared doubtful about whether the plaintiffs could 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.720 be considered admitted. Here are Justices Clarence Thomas and Elena 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:38.480 Kagan in the case of oppetitioners, how does that work? 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:42.560 Because they clearly were not admitted at the borders? So 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.560 is that a fiction? Is it metaphysical? What is it? 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.080 I mean? The section says the admission to the United 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.560 States of any alien is a non immigrant, But why 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.640 does that suggest that admission is something that all non immigrants? 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:00.240 Ket and Justice Brett Kavanaugh said the plaintiffs at an 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:04.840 uphill climb. We need to be careful about tinkering with 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:09.199 the immigration statutes has written, particularly when Congress has some 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.640 such a primary role. Here joining me is Leon Fresco, 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:18.879 a partnered Hollandon Knight. Leon explain what temporary protected status is. 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:24.240 So that's actually a statute that Congress passed that says 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:28.040 that when there is a natural disaster or something like 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:33.040 the COVID nineteen pandemic or the hurricane or political war, 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.600 et cetera, that the United States and the President in 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.520 this case in particular, has the ability to say, I 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:45.399 AM going to protect people here in America from those 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:50.760 countries from deportations and give them something called temporary protective 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:55.280 status that allows them to remain here legally for eighteen 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:59.080 months increments during the quote unquote duration of the crisis, 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.200 and then when that quote unquote crisis is over, then 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:07.359 theoretically these individuals are supposed to then returned back to 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:11.280 their country. So the Salvadoran couple came here in the 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:16.840 nineteen nineties, when did they acquire temporary protected status? The 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.320 status that they accrued actually did occur in the nineties 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:26.120 due to natural disasters and hurricanes that occurred in Al Savador. 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:31.280 The point is that that status was extended. This is 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.400 one of the criticisms that people give about temporary protective 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:38.920 status is once it's extended, it never goes away. Because 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:43.280 America feels badly about deporting people that had legal status. 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:48.080 So these were individuals that had for eighteen month increments 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:52.240 at a time been getting their silent remaining in the 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:56.199 United States. But we're concerned, like many people were, that 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.040 when President Trump came into office, his goal was to 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:03.439 end this temporary protective status and not let anyone remain 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.520 on it anymore. And so many people started to try 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:08.919 to figure out are their ways I can get a 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.800 green card in order to remain here in the United States. 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.320 And that is the crux of what the Supreme Court 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:19.359 was debating. The issue for the justices, though, was that 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.440 they came here illegally. Correct they came here illegally, and 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:27.439 so what happens is in order to get temporary protective status, 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:31.520 it doesn't matter whether you came here legally or illegally. 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.600 It just matters that you're in the United States on 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.240 the day that the status is created. So let's say 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.879 there's a hurricane on March one, and on March eighth, 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.159 the President says, we're gonna say that everybody who was 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:48.000 here on March one, the day of the hurricane, gets 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.160 temporary protective status. Then anybody here could apply whether they 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:56.600 were here illegally or legally, and more importantly, whether they 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:01.800 came illegally or legally, The question for them was whether 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:06.520 those individuals who had entered here illegally could be treated 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:11.359 as being admitted here now that they had temporary protective 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.480 status such that they're permitted now to apply for green 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.320 card because the condition of a green card is that 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.520 you had to have been admitted into the United States. 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:25.920 What were the justices main concerns during oral arguments? There 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:31.160 were three being concerns. One there was there was well, 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.760 there was a prudential concern, a textual concern, and then 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.920 sort of the main concern in the case. But so 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.440 I'll start first with the prudential concerns because that's the 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:45.399 easiest to understand. The first was, look, Congress decided this 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:50.840 thing as a temporary relief. And so if Congress decided 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:54.960 this thing as a temporary relief, then Congress didn't want 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.840 this thing to be used by people to stay here permanently. 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.560 So there's no way that's could have been. They're intent 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.120 to give people a way to be able to sneak 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:09.399 ely earn lawful permanent residents. So you heard Justice Kavanaugh said, 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.560 Justice Coney Barrett talk about this. Justice Kevana was also concerned, Hey, look, 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:18.040 Congress is currently debating giving green cards to people here 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.520 with temporary protective status. So just let that debate happen, 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:23.439 and when they can win it, they win it, and 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:25.800 they get the green cards. And if not, why should 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.399 the Supreme Court be involved in this? The second was 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.280 there was this very arcane and I thought a bit 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.320 confusing because I think they were trying to be too 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:42.080 cute by half. All of the justices asking whether a nonimmigrant, 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.560 which is someone who's coming here temporarily, and so nonimmigrants 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:50.920 are student visas, visitor visas, temporary work visas, religious work, 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.080 or visas, all of these things are called non immigrant visas, 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:58.720 whether there's any kind of nonimmigrants who hasn't been admitted 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:01.880 into the United States. Because the key up to this 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:05.520 case is that the statute says that if you have 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:09.240 temporary protective status, you're being you're being treated as a 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.399 non immigrant, And so they were getting to this debate, 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:15.760 is there any kind of of non immigrants who hasn't 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.040 been admitted to the United States? And the actual answer 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:20.680 that question is no. And for some reasons that did 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:23.520 not come out in the oral argument yesterday, you can't 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:26.560 the whole point, even if it's not said in the 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.800 code that in order to be a nonimmigrant, you have 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.480 to be admitted into the United States. It's like if 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.240 you don't say in the code, in order to be alive, 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.160 you have to be breathing. It's just an obvious point 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.119 because what happens is the way you get non immigrant 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.119 status in America is you enter a port of entry, 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:51.040 you present that VIVA, and a CDP person stamps you, 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:56.119 and that's your admission. And that's every nonimmigrant in America 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.760 that there's nobody who's not like that. And so because 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:04.200 of that, the the court got off on this tangent 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:08.879 of well, maybe not every non immigrant is admitted, but 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:10.920 they didn't come up with an example. They didn't ask 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:15.159 for an example. Nobody provided an example. Because though example 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.359 was available, and the Justice has asked a lot of 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:22.440 questions about what the word admitted means, tell us about 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.720 the third concerns. Then the third thing they were arguing 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:28.600 about was, well, there's two requirements in order to get 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.439 a green card. First you have to be admitted, and 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.359 second you have to be in legal status when you apply. 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:37.320 This is for employment based green cards, which is what 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:40.120 they were talking about in this case. And so they said, 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:43.359 why doesn't this just mean the second thing, which is 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:46.480 that you're currently in legal status, but it doesn't fix 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:49.600 the first thing, which is that you were admitted. And 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:54.000 that's really the central question in the case. And there 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:56.600 is where I think the government, if they have the 0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.920 stronger area of the argument, it would be there, which 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:02.440 is that it was meant to cover just the issue 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:05.399 of whether you're currently in loveful status, but it was 0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:08.199 not meant to fix the issue of whether you had 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:11.240 been admitted here in the first place. And so it's 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:14.080 only meant to give a green card the people who 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.120 came here llegally. It's not meant to give a green 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.919 card to people who came here illegally, and so that's 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:23.919 I think most likely where you're going to see the 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:28.959 court go. But what's very fascinating about this case is 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:33.320 the Biden administration Solicitor General did not want the court 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:37.200 and was very adamant about this, to say that this 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:41.280 interpretation had been foreclothes that you could get a green 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:44.560 card while they were on TPS. They simply wanted to 0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:49.520 be a reasonable interpretation of the statue because it's possible 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:53.640 that they may issue a regulation later that does allow 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:58.000 people with temporary protective status to get green cards because 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:01.520 you can choose between two reasonable interpretation. But if the 0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:05.160 Supreme Court says there's only one reasonable interpretation, and it's 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:08.240 that you cannot get a green card, then no regulation 0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:11.680 will be possible. Listen to what Chief Justice John Roberts 0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:15.880 told the Joice Department lawyer about the Biden administration not 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:19.560 being more forceful in their arguments. Mr Houston, I was 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:24.320 struck by the extent to which your brief um under 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:29.600 soldier position. Throughout it you said things like the text 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:34.119 doesn't foreclose your position. The court was not required to 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:38.320 accept the petitioners reading. Is that because of the difference 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:41.280 in the way the Biden administration views this and the 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:45.600 way the Trump administration viewed it correct that's the huge differences. 0:25:45.760 --> 0:25:50.600 The Trump administration wanted a decision that foreclosed permanently the 0:25:50.640 --> 0:25:53.760 ability for anybody who would enter here illegally to be 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:56.720 able to get a green card using temporary protective plant, 0:25:57.359 --> 0:26:00.719 and the Biden administration is instead, And I think this 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:03.159 was because they didn't really have time. The case was 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:05.480 already in the middle, and they didn't want to change 0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:09.359 their position. They instead are trying to defer to this 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:14.600 minimalist position, which is to say this argument isn't wrong. 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:17.720