1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, I'm really pleased to 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: welcome my guest, Congresswoman Victoria Sparts, who was born, raised, 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: and educated in Ukraine and now proudly serves Indiana's fifth 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: Congressional district, just north of Indianapolis in the United States 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: House of Representatives. She was elected in November twenty twenty one. 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Representative Sparts immigrated to United States in two thousand after 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: meeting her husband, Jason, a born and raised Indiana Hoosier, 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: on a train in Europe. She became a US citizen 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: and worked her way up from being a bank teller 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: to a CPA finance executive, successful business owner and Indiana 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: States Senator. Representative Sparts just returned from a bipartisan congressional 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: delegation trip to Brussels and Ukraine. She's joining me today 13 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: to share her experience from that trip and to give 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: us a sense from her vast knowledge of what she 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: thinks we can expect next with Russia and Ukraine. Victoria, 16 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me. Oh, it's my pleasure and 17 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: honor to be as you. So you actually grew up 18 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. Yes, I 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: actually grew up in a territory that very close to 20 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: Russian and bill Russian water, northern parts of Ukraine. What 21 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: was it like to be in a Soviet economy and 22 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: Soviet dictatorship. This is kind of the whole battle you 23 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: can see right in Ukraine. When Soviet Union fell apart 24 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: in ninety one, I still was back in Ukraine. We 25 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: had the fight of ideas and ideals. Half still my 26 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: professor at my University of Economics wanted to be with 27 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: communists and had communists propaganda. Half one to be afraid 28 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: enterprise and being new generation of freedmen and Hiak. And 29 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: it's set for me to see where Russia turn and 30 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: I'm glad to see that Ukrainians don't want it back. 31 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: They don't want that nissery back. And you can see 32 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: how now China is in line with Russia, that won't 33 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: bring the dictatorship back. And then European continent, because the 34 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: issue at stake is not just Ukraine, it's really security 35 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: architecture of the whole continent, and it's really the battles 36 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: of ideas and ideals because Ukraine is kind of in 37 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: the middle, it's like a gateway between East and West, 38 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: and Ukrainian people do not want to go back to 39 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: the misery, dictatorship and suppression because we maybe had a 40 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: little bit glimpse of social and during this pandemic, but 41 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: no one wants to have it long term. Well, I 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: was gonna say when you and I first chatter a 43 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: well back, I was very impressed to the fact that 44 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: you've lived in a state controlled economy and basically a 45 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: secret police environment where people get censored and people get 46 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: in effect delisted if they're not careful. So you know 47 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: how bad it can get. To what extent are you 48 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: concerned here at home about the perennial effort on the 49 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: left to try to push us into some kind of 50 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: big government socialism. Oh, it's a significant concern. And if 51 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: any socialistic system starts with empowering central government, right, because 52 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: it's really when centralized powers of the government become in 53 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: charge of economy, not a free exchange between bias and sellers, 54 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: when decisions are come either from Moscow or Washington, d C. 55 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: Where now businesses going all to Washington, d C. To 56 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: ask permission where to invest, to go to committees and 57 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: be harassed by their own government and suppress. That is 58 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: really what really socialism is And we've seen it more 59 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: and more, where all the CEOs now are in committees 60 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: explaining the government how to do business, and the governments 61 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: gives them permission what to do and what not to do. 62 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: I think for me, it was shocking to see what's 63 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: happened in our country and its resemblance Soviet Union, more 64 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: than I could ever imagine. Why do you think Putin 65 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: is forcing this crisis? I mean it seems to be 66 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: the one level that he must have enough challenges at home, 67 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: but at another level they have built up a huge 68 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: foreign reserve of money and the price of oil is 69 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: a huge asset to them. How serious do you think 70 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: he is about trying to either occupy or in some 71 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: way take apart to Ukraine. Well, I mean he's an 72 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: opportunist and he's a pretty serious like grass and not stupid. 73 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: He understood that we have a very weak leadership in 74 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: our country. Biden administration done a lot of missteps. They 75 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: have very stupid energy policy where now we become a 76 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: much big importer of Russian oil ourselves, where under President 77 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: Trump we were forcing Germany to think about their dependencies 78 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: on gas and build liquid natural guests terminals. Now Shad 79 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: Donkeyston pipeline. Seventy percent of our liquid natural guesses idol. 80 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: We are not building terminals. Biden drop the ball, get 81 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: told that he's not going to do sanctions on North 82 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: Stream two. We also had a debacle in Afghanistan. We 83 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: have economic bad policy and witnesses and our economy. So 84 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: I think all of this policies embold and putting, and 85 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,119 Speaker 1: he wants to test how far he can challenge the rest. 86 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: He also team up with China, and if you think 87 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: about it's very interesting. I look at their joint statement 88 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: where China and Russia they call them some like minded friends, 89 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: which honestly they're only I mean, they have a lot 90 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: of challenging themselves, but they're like Minnus is really hate 91 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: of United States. I think they're together on it. But 92 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: they're talking about changing the definition of democracy and they're saying, 93 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: then they've been world powers with the rich heritage of 94 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: democracy for thousands of years, and I'm thinking, are you 95 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: kidding me? It's like are they drinking kool ai? I 96 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: really believe in their own propaganda. It's almost like when 97 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: President Biden was talking about our bore is as secure 98 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: as an under Trump, Afghanistan is success or Nancy Pelosi 99 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: is saying three point five trillion constant zero. I mean, 100 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: it's like a joke to say that. But they determined 101 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: and very aggressive, and they understand that free Ukraine was 102 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: democracy in Ukraine is threat to regimes of China in Russia. 103 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,679 Speaker 1: So that's why they're so determined to go and really 104 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: suppressed people there. So on your recent trip, was it 105 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: about what you expected or was it different than you 106 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: thought it would be as a bipartisan trip of Democrats 107 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: and Republicans. And I suspect you had the greatest level 108 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: of knowledge of anybody on the trip about Ukraine. But wait, 109 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: did you see that surprised you or what did you 110 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: see that you think Americans should know? Well, I think 111 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,799 Speaker 1: one thing. You know, our left country twenty one years 112 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: ago and it was a very different country. What I 113 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: really was surprised how provestian and pro American Ukrainian people became. 114 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: I mean Ukrainian government, it's all over the place, and 115 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: as I expected, it's hard to figure out what they're thinking. 116 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: But Ukrainian people, they've been in the war for seven 117 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: years now, they've been around Europe from a bad life 118 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: to have all kinds of jobs everywhere, as they've seen 119 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: the best much more and they do not want to 120 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: go back, so they are willing to die and fight 121 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: with nothing to be a free country with democracy and 122 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: be Provstian country. This is where the will of the 123 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: people and determination. I didn't expect it, as I said, 124 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: I grew up in the Chernige of region. Chernigue of 125 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: Region has been always multinational. I know some people actually 126 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: from Russia where their sons are fighting in the Ukrainian 127 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: army right now against Russia. It's not about Russian Ukraine. 128 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: It's about the ideas and ideals, and Ukrainians are tired 129 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: of suppressions and socialism, communists, and they're willing to die 130 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: to have freedoms. And it's unfortunate sometimes when I see 131 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: how we give out our freedoms for nothing, and then 132 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: it's set for me to see because then a lot 133 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: of young people have to die to get it back, 134 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: and we need to be very vigilant, and it breaks 135 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: my heart to see what's happening in a lot of 136 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: other countries and it's hard to get it back. Ukraine, 137 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: being independent for thirty years, still cannot get these freedom's back. 138 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: But for me, it was surprising because the region I 139 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: grew up never was the anti Russian people was very multinational, 140 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: but it is very anti russianal provesting right now and 141 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: people want freedom. People don't even look the same to 142 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: me any when. That was surprising for me to see that. 143 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: So in that sense, if I remember correctly, there was 144 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 1: a anti communist insurgency right after World War Two that 145 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: lasted till about nineteen forty seven in which Ukrainians were 146 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: deeply opposed to the Soviets re establishing control. Shouldn't that 147 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: be sort of a warning to Putin that this may 148 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: not be a very easy to digest process, that even 149 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: if they came in, they might face a long term resistance. 150 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: There is Ukraine behind a suppression fight for the long time. Actually, 151 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: my own family, you know, they were farmers and when 152 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: Bolsheviks came took their land, they spent my grandpa with 153 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: his family to steep south and that was a lot 154 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: of Ukrainians die. One of his siblings die. When my 155 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: grandpa came back home, he ate so many potato peals 156 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: that almost died from it. So he still remembers they 157 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: were trying to force him to join Communist Party and 158 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: collective farms, and he never did it. They an't even 159 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: send him to say they're a jail. At some point. 160 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: My other grandpa fourth Partisan movement during German occupation and 161 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: he was lead partisan where they killed him and not 162 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: just him, they killed his wife and his sister. They 163 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: shot all of them. My grandma the age of twelve 164 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: have raised her six year old brother by herself. So 165 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people died and land Germans thought they're 166 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: going to occupy people. It's very difficult. You can maybe 167 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: come and take over the country, but hold country of 168 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: that size and if that population that doesn't want to 169 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: be with you, it will be costly for Russia and 170 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: it really can cause a lot of problems for Russia. 171 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: So I think it's a huge risk for Russia and 172 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: I think it will be bad for Russia too. Along 173 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: that line, I mean, I think people underestimate just how 174 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: big Ukraine is. That's right, it's one of the largest 175 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: countries in Europe. I mean it's used to have over 176 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: fifty million population problem around forty now, but I mean 177 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: it's a large country. You know. Hitler used to call 178 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: it a motherland of Europe, and it has a lot 179 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: of resources real or smirals. It has a lot of 180 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: good soils too, and it's a bread basket. But it's 181 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: also another danger. Ukraine has about sixteen nuclear reactors. You know, 182 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: even though after Soviet Union fell apart and exchange for 183 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: agreement Budapest Memorandum, Ukraine give up actually the nuclear missiles, 184 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: but it has sixteen nuclear reactors. That actually poses some 185 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: risk of a major war to provide security because each 186 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: of these reactors is a nuclear bomb by itself, and 187 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: I think that's created a lot of dangers where the 188 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: country is and how country is located. So I think 189 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: this is a very serious situation, and I think unfortunately 190 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: this administration been weak and slow in the start, but 191 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: they have to figure out how to deal with it 192 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: because we have millions of people died to keep this 193 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: peace for seventy seven years. Our fathers and great father's 194 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: paid a significant price for it. And for me to 195 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: see what's happening right now in Europe, it's unfortunate, but 196 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: we just have to do our best. It's like night 197 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: a day. I'll be honest with you. I did not 198 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: expect because like Ukrainian people, they stay national anth and 199 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: before they go sit down at the table and have drinks. 200 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean, when I left, it still was kind of 201 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: provastern somewhat. Some people were pro Soviet Union. Still there 202 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: was still kind of battling ideas and people wanted new life. 203 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: People wanted democracy. But I don't think at that time 204 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: people wanted to die for democracy. I think people are 205 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: willing to die for democracy now. And these younger people 206 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: to think about it. You know, I grew up, it's 207 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: still the Soviet Union. I remember what Soviet Union is. 208 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: A lot of these young people. Ukraine been independent for 209 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: thirty years. They don't know what Russia is as a country. 210 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: I mean they know the country, but they have no 211 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: connection to it. They grew up in Ukraine. They're Ukrazy. 212 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: Not a Ukrainian born. I'm Soviet Union born person. The 213 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: country doesn't exist for a reason. They are Ukrainian born. 214 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: This is the only country they knew. And a lot 215 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: of these young kids are dying now. Fifteen thousand of 216 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: these kids died, and some of them at the age 217 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: that fifteen. I mean, it's a crazy war that's happened 218 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: in there right now. So I think at this point, 219 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: I mean, they're willing to go forward, but I think 220 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: Russia is a bigger Grasha and it will be a 221 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: very huge cost of life. And for me it's sad 222 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: to see how many young people would have to die. 223 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: I was very struck when Chlista and I were in 224 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: many ways, it is the center of civilization. Up to 225 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: about twelve hundred, Russian civilization was actually centered in Kiv 226 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: rather than in Moscow. Moscow was this dinky little town 227 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: off in the forest up until the Mongols arrived. And 228 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: you see this with some of the monasteries and churches, 229 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: that there was just extraordinary wealth and extraordinary civilization and 230 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: Ukraine in that period. And I think that there's a 231 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: part of the sense of pride. Is this heritage that 232 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: goes back now for nearly a thousand years. Well, I 233 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: think interesting because Cherniga prince and the Kievan Ruth the 234 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: area grew up. He's the one who studied Moscow because 235 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: when Mongols and Tataris, when they attacked them from the east, 236 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: they wanted to bring capital Norse. So really, if you 237 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: talk about there is more claim of Kiev to Russian 238 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: territory than Moscow to Ukrainian territory. And it's kind of funny. 239 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: Let me tell you listen a little story about Crimeer, 240 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,359 Speaker 1: Like a lot of people say, well, Krushchov was Ukrainians, 241 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: so he gave Crimeer to Ukraine. But in reality the 242 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: Krushchov was born in the village that is right now 243 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: in course Kringe and Russia. So that was a gesture 244 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: he did because a lot of Ukrainian territories that now 245 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: Russians were taken from them. So be nice to Ukrainian 246 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: suggestion exchange, he said, well, Ukraine can have Crimea. I'm 247 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: just saying Europe is a can of worms. There is 248 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: so much history and bad blood. Start redividing the territories 249 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: and start looking who was under which country and what 250 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: happened before. It's extremely dangerous to stability in peace in Europe. 251 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: It can open up significant conflicts and we have a 252 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: lot of people died to keep peace. Your congressional delegation 253 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: visited Brussels both for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and 254 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: the European Union. What was your sense of the mood 255 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: in Brussels? I think, interestingly enough, I think this aggression 256 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: united Congress in some ways, even though you know, we're 257 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: very still divided a lot of things. But for the 258 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: good of this country national security. We went together. It 259 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: also united European Union and Native because they understand that 260 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: it's a threat to them too, and also kind of 261 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: showed them the importance of the United States is a 262 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: grand tour of their stability. You know, they were like 263 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: very kind or we should worship before. Now they are 264 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: understand if we are not there, nobody is going to 265 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: come and help them. And also I think rub did 266 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: a good job pushing on them, say you know what, Europe, 267 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: you have to step up too. You cannot just only 268 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: rely on us. So I think a lot of them 269 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: start realizing that threats are real. So I think in 270 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: NATO is United and European Union, you have countries like 271 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: Sweeting and Finland that never even considered to be Native 272 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: members before now are talking about that and they're extremely 273 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: nervous because they understand what this aggression can cause. I 274 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: think we definitely have challenges with Germany because Germany did 275 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: a lot of stupid policies with their utopian green agenda, 276 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: where now it gets like a joke, We'll be flying 277 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: on solar panels by the end of the year. It's 278 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: just like stupid, right, So they eliminated coal industry, nuclear energy. 279 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: Then they pretty much depend on Russian gas, so they 280 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: put them in a difficult situation. But I think Germany 281 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: also understand that Russia used to be in Berlin too, Okay, 282 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: so hopefully they remember that President Biden, who's actually been 283 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: I think more focused and more effective and trying to 284 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: modulate a serious response than I would have expected given 285 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: how they behave, say towards Iran. I think he approved 286 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: eighty five hundred troops last week going to Europe and 287 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: just announced another three thousand troops going to Poland, Germany 288 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: and Romania. I think a battalion of the eighty second 289 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: Airborne was flying into Europe today, And we're certainly going 290 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: to be in Poland and Romania, you may know. I 291 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: don't know whether or not we're going to be an 292 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: Estonia lot being the Winia. I mean, these are obviously 293 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: symbolic forces compared to the one hundred and thirty thousand 294 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: Russian troops on the eastern front of Ukraine, but they're 295 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: also a pretty big trip. Where my father was a 296 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: career soldier and we used to live on the inner 297 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: German border back in the late nineteen fifties, and it 298 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: was clear we were there as a signal to the 299 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: Russians that we would go to war. In fact, they 300 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: made a big point back then that we had families 301 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: there because we knew that it's one thing to kill 302 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 1: professional soldiers. It's another thing to kill their wives and 303 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: their children, or in the modern world, their husbands and 304 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: their children. From your perspective, do you think having the 305 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: United States began to increase its strength in Europe does 306 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: send a signal to Moscow. I think he has now 307 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: scrambled and his responsibi been slow. Wouldn't been doing this 308 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: since March, so he missed some opportunities to de escalate 309 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: the situation. So now he has to deal with what 310 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: he has to deal and at least he needs to 311 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: show that we're at it to defend our natilized and 312 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: he has to do some things to show that we 313 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: are serious, because I don't think he's done so many 314 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: things when he does the talk but doesn't do the walk. 315 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: And what's he done if he pretty much abandoned not 316 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: just US citizen, but NATO and Afghanistan. So now all 317 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: of this adversary a kind of watching, so he had 318 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: to kind of do something to show it to just 319 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: rebuild at least some of presence then to show that 320 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: he means business. So I think he's dealing now with 321 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: a position of weakness, so he needs to strengthen them, 322 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: and I mean troop movements. It shows some deterrent and 323 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: at least you can show that you help with NATA. 324 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: But he also needs to this situation to think seriously 325 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: how we can look at what kind of sanctions can 326 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: be done. You know, if he does continue this aggression, 327 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: let make sure that put an understand that it will 328 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: be costly and they can be sustained long term, and 329 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: we can get countries like Germany on board and put 330 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: pressure on them to do that. And I think Germany 331 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: will be on board, but we need to make sure 332 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: that they will have a real impact. So if he 333 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: does move that it's going to be a real deterrent 334 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: for him not to go further, don't We now have Canadian, 335 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: British and American troops in western Ukraine training the Ukrainian military. 336 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: Now we don't have troops. We just have some advisors 337 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: just helping out with some of the trainers, but we 338 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: don't have any troops and no one is planning to 339 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: do with Ukraine understands very realistically it's not going to happen, 340 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: and we do not have that commitment. We have commitment 341 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: under Article five to our native allies, but we do 342 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: not have commitment to Ukraine. It's not even on the table, 343 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: and I think everyone understand that. But I think we 344 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: need to make sure is that we're serious about our 345 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: native allies. And you can see the Pudding is now 346 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: bringing ballistic missiles very close to Ukrainian border too, to 347 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: show his strengths. So I think it's unfortunate situation escalated 348 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: to where it is right now. Unfortunately, President Biden give 349 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: up a lot of negotiation tools for nothing before. It 350 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: created very bad policies and environment now for Putting to 351 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: be ahead, and now he has to be reactive to 352 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: everyson what he does. But I think we still need 353 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: to try to find a way for diplomacy. You find 354 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: the way to get put In back off, and find 355 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: the way to really to stop this significant conflict that 356 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: can have a significant implication of world order and the 357 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: whole piece of security around the world. It's way more 358 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: serious that a lot of people realize an implication of it, 359 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: and I think we don't want to send our children 360 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: to die. As President Reagan always said, peace through our strengths. 361 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: It's much better mechanism than the war. But I think 362 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: we did an escalation, We allowed this happened to this way, 363 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: So now we just have to do what we can do. 364 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: What was your take on the j Putin Joint Communicate 365 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: and Putin going to Beijing. There are a lot of 366 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: challenges that Russia has with China's really taken control. I 367 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: mean they give millions of acres of Russia to China 368 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: for nothing like the leases they give like thirty cents 369 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: per year. I mean, this is like ridiculous. So I 370 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: think China has taken over Siberia Far East. A lot 371 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: of Russian there now I afraid to get out of 372 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: their houses. So I think it's opposes significant risks and 373 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: China is very clever. They using their economic expansion as 374 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: a mechanism to obtain more resources. Think about it. Even 375 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: what's happened in Ukraine, right, Ukraine passed a law not 376 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: to allow to buy strategic acids. I think they bought 377 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: one plant which was building manufactured agents and aircraft. President 378 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: Trump put pressure for Ukraine for the administration to dissolve 379 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: that transaction. Biden actually continue with that. Now it's an arbitrage. 380 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: Ukraine has a lot of rare earthst minerals, a lot 381 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: of land, so they have a lot of economic interests. 382 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: I mean another thing, what we did kind of stupid 383 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: China to expand with their vaccines, right, we were harassing 384 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: our people and hugging vaccines and we didn't even need 385 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: as much vaccine and try to force people to do 386 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: vaccine they don't even want, which is a complete government coersion. 387 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: It's like to totalitarian regime. But then China was trying 388 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,719 Speaker 1: to coverse other countries and selling strategic assets around the 389 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: world because they were given them vaccines and no one 390 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: else provided. They couldn't buy vaccine anywhere else, so a 391 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: lot of these countries had to pretty much buy a 392 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: vaccine from China, get it, and then return to sell 393 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 1: their strategic assets. So now Russia accumulated a lot of 394 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: military capital, China economic capital, and they team up because 395 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: they want to challenge us and want to strike at 396 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: us together. I think that's right now. I think that 397 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,959 Speaker 1: poses a big long term challenge. Listen, I want to 398 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me. I think both here experience 399 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: growing up and being educated in Ukraine and coming to 400 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: the US, but also this recent trip which reconnected you 401 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: and gave you a pretty current view. And I really appreciate, 402 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: given everything you have to do as a member of Congress, 403 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: you're taking the time to chat with us and to 404 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: help us have a better understanding. And I'm very grateful 405 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: that you're willing to serve the country as the representative 406 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: for Indiana's fifth district. So thank you very very much. Victoria, Well, 407 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: thank you so much. It's my great one. And I'll 408 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: tell you I never started my wildest dream that my 409 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: experiences and grown up in a Soviet and communist country 410 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: and socialism would be very handy for me now to 411 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: fight a lot of communists and socialist and our country. 412 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: So I guess I was trained by them well, so 413 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: I know how they operate. So I feel we have 414 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: the greatest country in the world, and we need to 415 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: keep it strong because strong America is great for the 416 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: rest of the world. And we need to do a 417 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: better job and have some smart and common sense policy 418 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: and battle leadership in our country. But thank you so much, 419 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: and thank you for everything you've done to keep this 420 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: country great and strong. Thank you to my guests Congresswoman 421 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: Victoria Sparts. You can read more about defending Ukraine against 422 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: Putin on our showpage at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is 423 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: produced by Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 424 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howe, and our 425 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was 426 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at 427 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: Gingwish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 428 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with 429 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 430 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld 431 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: can sign up for my three free weekly columns at 432 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: Gingwish three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. 433 00:25:52,119 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld four