1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Clayton. What if I told you in a few years 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: there wasn't going to be any heroine on the streets 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: like none. Okay, that's a good thing, right, What if 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: I told you that was a bad thing for who 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: people that do heroin? Now you got to explain this. 6 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: Four suspected drug dealers are under arrest for allegedly supplying 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: the fentnyl laced heroine that killed actor Michael K. Williams. 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: Someone overdoses on your dope. That is to the rest 9 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: of a consumer population in Sellington, not a warning. That 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: is an advertisement, almost like a purity check. I guess 11 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: guys exactly they're trying to find arcanics. Possibly he is 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: a country were never faced with massive industrial quantities of 13 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: fennel until the time when the Sun of Law drug 14 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: cartel first figured out that finel existed. This is an 15 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: existential threat to the United States, China, Mexico are flooding 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: on c streets to important these elements within the Sun 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: of Law drug cartel get pretty mad at him. Not 18 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: a good idea, get the sent a long drug. Hurt 19 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: mad at you, but he down, He sits him down 20 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: and explains to him, look, I have made for you, 21 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: the most profitable, the most potent trug that you are 22 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: ever going to encounter, and it's called functional. I'm Greg Glad. 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: I'm Clayton, English and this is the War on drugs. 24 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: Clay Man, how's it going. Oh man, it's good, it's good. 25 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: Were broadcast them from the right place. Yeah, we're in Atlanta. Yeah, 26 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: we're on Boulevard. Yeah. Yeah, interesting little area over here, 27 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: East Atlanta area. Yeah, it's definitely. Uh, the War on 28 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: drugs is hit this area repeatedly and heatedly. But yeah, 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: I'm glad. I'm glad we're here. Though. I think we 30 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: shed light on stuff. That's why I'm glad you down 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: here in my city. Yeah, we're gonna talk about today. 32 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: I think is is really prevalent to a lot of listeners, 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: and I hope we all get something out of this. 34 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk to this guy. Sam Keionis wrote this 35 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: book called The Least of Us. It's about the fentnyl 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: epidemic and how it's taken over. And the thing that 37 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: scared me was that, you know, Sam was just like, 38 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: heroin won't be a thing anymore, it'll be a vestige 39 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: of the past. And when you say heroin, like you 40 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: think order the real bowin, like math, it's heroin, and 41 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: and you're just and that's like going to be an 42 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: old timey drug, right, That's right, that's terrifying. That was 43 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: one for me when he said that. At first, I thought, oh, good, yeah, 44 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: we got it. Yeah, but I didn't realize that it's 45 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: all gonna be replaced with finnel, something more powerful, more deadly, 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: and something that it's already happening. And the crazy thing 47 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: is like things that you're able to do to help yourself, 48 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: like narcane to you know that can override and opioid 49 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: you know, overdose, or fentnyl strips where you're able to 50 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: test substances and see if it has fentyl and it 51 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: highly highly accurate. They're illegal in a lot of states. 52 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: They're dru paraphernalia. You can't own it or actually give 53 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: it to someone narcn or you can't even have it 54 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: in you. And so it's like it's it's crazy that 55 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: the one thing that can actually maybe prevent some of 56 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: these things, we're also causing it to be drug paraphernalia 57 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: some way. It's like that's the smallest step, Like that's 58 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: the smallest step you could take, like just allow test 59 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: strips to be available. It's it's a crazy thing. So yeah, 60 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: I mean Sam really opened my eyes to what this 61 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: all looks like. And if you thought that trying to 62 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: fight the war on drugs when you had drugs that 63 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: needed like you know, poppy fields or field you need people, 64 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: you need You're not to worry about rabbits and yeah, 65 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: the other cartail exactly. Shoot, like your pets become bigger 66 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: and they have automatic work. You can just be in 67 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: a room. What are We're in an eight by eight 68 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: room right now? Yeah, this could be a place where 69 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: you could do twenty million dollars worth of fentanyl in 70 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: a day and that could happen all of the country 71 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: and process it not do it. Yeah yeah, if you 72 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: do it, you you I don't think you're gonna make it. Now. 73 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: If you did it, then we need to do some 74 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: tests on you. Yeah. This is one of these topics, 75 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: the fentinyl epidemic that you kind of have to laugh 76 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: so you don't cry when you look at the the 77 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: numbers of overdoses. It's just staggering. I get text vocations 78 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: and you know, look on Twitter and it feels like, yeah, 79 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: every every month, every month a prominent person. It feels like, 80 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, and that's not it. And you can only 81 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: imagine what's going on, like you said, in the streets 82 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: in your city and my city and all across the country. 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: And you know, we joke a lot around a lot 84 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: m and we will during this episode, but we know 85 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: that this is an incredibly serious topic and this is 86 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: impacting the lives of so many people across the country everywhere. 87 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: We really got to get to the root of the problem. 88 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: And the root of the problem is the war on drugs, 89 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: the prohibition, the way that we have criminalized um, you know, 90 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: the drugs and put so many people in prison, and 91 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: the ramifications that has had and the lack of actual 92 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: you know, solving addiction in this country because of the 93 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: war on drugs. Is wife fentinyl so ramping the streets. 94 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: This is the reason. This is the root cause. And 95 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: so we get into that, you know, with um, with 96 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: Sam and I think it's just going to be a 97 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: really great episode of informative one on something that's really 98 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: not you know, well known, like, yeah, we know what 99 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: the word fentanyl, but it's kind of okay, what is it, 100 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: How do we stop? What's what's going on? Yeah? One 101 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: of the things I really got out of this episode 102 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: was just, uh, you actually see how the war on 103 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: drugs actually fuels the whole fitting al epidemic. And then 104 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: I think it's important for people to listen to this 105 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: episode because Sam answers so many questions that I hear 106 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: just talking to people in day to day conversation about 107 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: Fenton Al is what is it? Why is it? Why 108 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: would they do this? And I think he answers so 109 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: many of those in such a playing and simple way 110 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: that everybody can understand. So let's get into it with 111 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: Sam Key on this, Yeah, without any further ado, let's 112 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: let's kick it to Sam and figure out where fentinyl 113 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: came from and where we're at right now with this. 114 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: All right, Sam, welcome to the War on Drugs. How 115 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: are you pretty well? Greg? Thank you? Yeah, great to 116 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: have you. Oh it's good to be here. Yeah. Going 117 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: through your book, it was just absolutely fascinating. And one 118 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: thing that really stuck out that you had said was 119 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: there's not going to be any recreational drug use pretty soon. 120 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: M clayton. Thoughts and prayers to you on that. I 121 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: don't do it recreationally anyway. I have a purpose when 122 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: I use drugs to get high. Yeah. Yeah, So what 123 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: did you mean by that? Well, I think it's we're 124 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: already at the end of the era of recreational drug use, 125 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: and Frontal has put an end to that, well almost 126 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: at an end of heroin. Don't have really much heroin 127 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: on the streets anymore in the United States. I think 128 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: we're about a year or two away from seeing no 129 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: heroin at all. And so everything that's out there can 130 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: have front on online. You can't trust anything really to 131 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: not have fentyl in it, unless it's pills that you've 132 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: got from a pharmacist that they filled in front of you, 133 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: almost And so now it's in everything. It's in cocaine, 134 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: it's in the methamphetam that is also everywhere in the country, 135 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: and it's being put into counterfeit pills that look like 136 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: percosets or xanax bars or even the illegal pills ecstasy 137 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: and what have you. And all of this is really 138 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: because the ease of which the Mexican drug trafficking world 139 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: can make fentanyl, and the enormous quantities it can make. 140 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: All of that is why You've got so much of 141 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: the stuff around and it's being added to everything. And 142 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: what that has done, I think is really put an 143 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: end to risk free recreational drug use in America. And 144 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: now every time you used ope, it's a it's a 145 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: game of Russian roulette. Wow, you said in a year, 146 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: you don't think there'll be any here, When on the streets, 147 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: I'd say we're about a year or two away from that. 148 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: Every place I go, I see less and less heroin 149 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: being seized. People call it heroin by the way they 150 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: call whatever they're buying on the street. I found this 151 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: in eastern Tennessee, for example, people will still call it heroin. 152 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: There's no heroine in it. It tests for fentanyl, A 153 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: tests from math at, tests for thhc, AT, tests for 154 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: all kinds of things. But but there's very little heroin 155 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: in it. And this is all because of economics. A 156 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: basic idea is that fentanyl is simply more efficient, more competitive, 157 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: if you like, form of getting people addicted to opioids 158 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: and then keeping them strung out. It makes a lot 159 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: of sense from a drug dealer's perspective, a drug trafficker's perspective. 160 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: You don't have to grow poppies anymore. You just make 161 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: it in a lab. Yeah, yeah, let's I'd love to 162 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: kind of boil down on that, is you kind of 163 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: think about these things and is that the big instant fennel. 164 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: Obviously we can get back to like kind of like 165 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: what fennel is and what the potency is. But from 166 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: a pure economic standpoint, you don't need a poppy field anymore. 167 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: You don't need a marijuana field anymore. You know, you 168 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: can just have a guy pretty much in a kiss 169 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: the chef's schmock in his bedroom, just whipping this stuff up. Yes, 170 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: all of this is supplied driven. Virtually none of it 171 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: is demand driven. In my opinion, it's all about what 172 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: benefits traffickers, and traffickers are enormously benefited by switching from 173 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: plant based drugs to synthetic drugs made only in a 174 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: lab with no plant involved. It's easier to make, it's 175 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: cheaper to make, and all that you really need. You 176 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: don't need land, you don't need sunlight, You're gonna need irrigation. 177 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: All you need now is access to shipping ports. Shipping 178 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: ports get you access to the entire world chemical market, 179 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: and all of this means that they can produce quantities 180 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: of these drugs that are simply staggering, simply unprecedented, the 181 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: quantities of the drugs that we're seeing now coming out 182 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: of Mexico. Because they don't have any more seat, there's 183 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: no more seasons, you're not limited by what the When 184 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: the plant can actually grow, you can make it every week, 185 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: every two weeks. You know. The other thing that's interesting 186 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: I think about all this is if you if you 187 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: look at how corporate America, particularly of products that you 188 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: would you know, like that have some addictive capacity, stuff 189 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: with sugar in it, fast food, all that kind of stuff. 190 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: What they're mostly looking for is to reduce friction of use. 191 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: It's all about supply again. It's like, you want to 192 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: get as much of this stuff out there as easily 193 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: accessible to your consumers as you possibly can. So you 194 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: find fast food at every interstate off ramp. You find 195 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: battles over space in grocery stores for sodas and whatnot. 196 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: It's all this idea, like I want to make it 197 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 1: as easy for my consumers to buy and use this 198 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: stuff as possible. Well, if you think about it in 199 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: a kind of an unarticulated way, that's really what the 200 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: trafficking world out of Mexico has created with these synthetic 201 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: drugs that can make ye a round no more seasons 202 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: all across the America. Yeah, and similar to almost like 203 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: a McDonalds than anyone else where. It's just like keep 204 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: drolling fatties at this like meat and sugar and fat. 205 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: Literally the names of some of these bills are like 206 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: drop dead, You're gonna die, Like these are like this 207 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: is the good stuff. Yeah. Well, I think this plays 208 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: into another idea that is very common, has been true 209 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: for a long time, and that is that when you 210 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: use an opioid, say heroin or whatever it happens to me, 211 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: and someone overdoses on your dope, that is to the 212 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: rest of the consumer population you're selling to, not a warning. 213 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: That is an advertisement. That's like, go get that dope. 214 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: That's really good. That's that's the stuff that you want 215 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: to get, And so branding it makes that even easier. Yeah, 216 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: the overdose is like to them, that's like almost like 217 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: a purity check. I guess exactly correct. They're like, oh, 218 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: he overdose. That means it was so much in there, 219 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, like it can't be cut. So that's that's crazy. 220 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: That's that's how it works in their brains. We got 221 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: a couple of bills to pay, but we'll be right back. 222 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: Money money, money. Hi. I'm Jason Flom, CEO and founder 223 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: of Lava for Good podcasts, Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, 224 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: The War on Drugs, and many other great podcasts. Today 225 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: we're asking you, our listeners, to take part in the survey. 226 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: Your feedback is going to help inform how we make 227 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: podcasts in the future. You're complete and candidate answers will 228 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: help us continue to bring you more insightful and inspiring 229 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: stories about important topics that impact us all. So please 230 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: go to Lava for Good dot com slash survey and 231 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:09,599 Speaker 1: participate today. Thank you for your support. The War on 232 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: Drugs podcast is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is 233 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers 234 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems. 235 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: Weldon Angelos is one of those change makers. At the 236 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: age of twenty three, Weldon was arrested for a first 237 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 1: time offense for selling weed to a confidential informant. At 238 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: the time, he was a budding musician spending time with 239 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: artists like Tupacs, Snoop Dogg, Pink, and Nas. His entire 240 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: life was ahead of him when he was sentenced to 241 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: a mandatory fifty five years in federal prison without the 242 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: possibility of early release. After serving thirteen years, a bipartisan 243 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: effort led to him getting officially pardoned. Upon his release, 244 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: he founded the Weldon Project, a nonprofit working to create 245 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: a better outcome for those still in prison that funds 246 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: social change and provides financial aid for all those who 247 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: are still serving time for cannabis related offenses. Welldon Angelos 248 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: is one of many entrepreneurs partnering will Stand Together to 249 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: drive solutions and education, healthcare, poverty, and criminal justice. To 250 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: learn more about Stand Together their Partners or how you 251 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: can partner Will Stand Together, go to Stand Together dot org. Yeah, 252 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: let's get back to kind of like the history of fentanyl, 253 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of folks probably think like 254 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: it's like the new designer drug on the street that 255 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: just came out of nowhere. But why did it come from? Yeah? Yeah, 256 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: like there's so many people in this like it's hitting 257 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: the streets. But now, fentanyl has a long history. It's 258 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: a magnificent drug and surgery. I've had fentanyl and when 259 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: I had a heart attack. It revolutionized surgery. We're able 260 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: to do all kinds of surgery now that we're not 261 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: able to do before. Funnel Funnel was invented by Paul Jansen, 262 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: my opinion, one of the great scientific of minds of 263 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. He invented many many drugs. Is from 264 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: Belgium on the company Jansen Pharmacunica, and he invented all 265 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: kinds of drugs and it was a really fertile scientific mind. 266 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty he invented fentanyl, which was based on 267 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: the phuentel molecule, which is able to enter the bloodstream 268 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: and enter the brain much more quickly than say the 269 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: earlier morphine and so on. And it didn't last long, 270 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: and that's what made it effective as a surgical tool. 271 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: You went into anesthesia and then very quickly you could 272 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: come out of it once they stopped administering it to you, 273 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: and so you didn't stay doped up for a long 274 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: time as you would on morphine. And that became kind 275 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: of how surgery was done. And so, but what makes 276 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: it a fantastic drug in the surgical setting is what 277 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: makes it a torment for users on the street and 278 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: a huge benefit for dealers, and that is that it 279 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: takes you in and out very quickly. So when addicted 280 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: to fentyl, you gotta always be using, right you got 281 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: to you use, and then three or four hours later 282 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: you got to use again. You were never more than 283 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: a few hours away from the dope sickness taking over 284 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: with fentanyl, and now what they're looking for is fentanyl. 285 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: You can't be the only dealer in the area who 286 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: does not add fentanyl to his math or his cocaine 287 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: or whatever, because very quickly word will spread and you 288 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: will be out of customers. No one will come to you. 289 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: I spoke with a dealer, a kind of a mid 290 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: level dealer out in eastern Tennessee, and she told me 291 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: she would go every day to her wholesaler in Knoxville 292 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: and buy dope and then come back to her area 293 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: and sell it to a bunch of different folks. And 294 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: at one point the wholesaler was going to go re 295 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: up and buy a whole bunch more and she gave 296 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: him fentanyl test strips. Now, these are strips you're supposed 297 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: to as a user's stick into whatever it is you're 298 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: about to use to make sure to see whether it 299 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: has fentyl or not, and the idea being that you 300 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: would not use it if it had had fentyl in it. 301 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: But she gave him fentyl test trips to test whatever 302 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: it was he was going to buy to make sure 303 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: sure that it had had fentanyl in it. That's that's 304 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: the whole point. You don't you don't want to come 305 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: back here with stuff that doesn't have fentanyl already mixed 306 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: into it. She told him, we're not going to buy that. 307 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: When we got we got no use for that. But 308 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of what actually happens after 309 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: the fentyl market has matured. And I would say that 310 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: in many, many parts of this country, perhaps all of them, 311 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: but certainly many parts of the country. Now you are 312 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: seeing an increasing number of people just addicted to fentanyl 313 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: and demanding fentyl. Now that's crazy. So there's no market 314 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: for somebody with the organic heroine. I was in a 315 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: Nashville tent encauntment about three or four months ago, and 316 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: I was speaking with this guy, longtime heroine user, got 317 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: them transitioned over to fentanyl, and a guy came through. 318 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: He said a week before I was there and he said, um, 319 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: he got this black tar heroine and it looked to 320 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: be legitimate, good quality blacked our heroin. But the guy 321 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: told him, what use do I have of heroin? I 322 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: need fentanyl. I'm not so. Fentanyl is taking over the 323 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: market and they need it. Heroin is almost worthless now. 324 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: That's why it's very soon will be I think, if 325 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: things continue as they are, will be non existent on 326 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: the streets of the United States. So fentanyl existed for 327 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: decades and it was just kind of us in a 328 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 1: medical setting. And what happened during that gap, when did 329 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: this kind of like realization from drug cartels and things 330 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: like that kind of spur over to the illicit narcotic ray. Yeah, 331 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: Fentyl for a lot of years just existed as an anesthetic. 332 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: You would occasionally see some you know, underground chemist come 333 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: up with a batch of it, and you would see 334 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: these little spurts and deaths in some area. Orange County, 335 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: California had a San Francisco and San Diego had them 336 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: for a bid. Sacramento area had one for a while. 337 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: But we as a country were never really faced with 338 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: massive industrial quantities of fentanyl until two thousand and five 339 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: and six, and that's the time when the Senelow drug 340 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: cartel first figured out that fentyl existed. And this came 341 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: from an underground chemist that they had hired, Mexican guy 342 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: that had grown up in San Diego, learned somehow and 343 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: I still don't know how to cook some version of fentanyl. 344 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: Was arrested for that, went to prison for many years, 345 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: during which time he took lots of notes and met 346 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: all the chemists in every prison he went to and 347 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: got out of there much better able to make fentanyl, 348 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: and then was deported in about two thousand and four. 349 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: Two thousand and five, he was approached by what he 350 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: said later were members of the Senelo A drug cartel 351 00:19:53,640 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: who wanted him to make not fentanyl, but if federan. 352 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: If Ederan is the crucial ingredient in one method of 353 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: making methamphetamen. Right, yes, it's it's it's a natural chemical 354 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: that's found in the Sudafid pills and all that kind 355 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: of stuff. And they had been making, really industrializing methamphetomen 356 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: based on if ederan. But there were signs now in 357 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and five and six that the Mexican government 358 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: was going to get rid of or at least cracked 359 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: down on the importations. And so they wanted another source, 360 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: somebody who who could make this stuff. And this guy said, yeah, 361 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: I think I could make it. But in the back 362 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: of his mind it was a strange thing. The back 363 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: of his mind, he says, yeah, I'm not going to 364 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: make that. I mean, I know better. This was a 365 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: guy who always thought he was kind of the smartest 366 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: guy in the room. So they buy him all these 367 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:55,239 Speaker 1: very high quality chemical laboratory equipment and glassware and all 368 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: the rest, and he sets out, but he really sets 369 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: out to make phentomyl. When they just discover this these 370 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: elements within the cinealoid, Joe Cartel get pretty mad at him. 371 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: Not a good idea, get the cinaloa. Joe Cartel mad 372 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: at you. But he sits him down, right, He sits 373 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: him down and explains to him, look, I have made 374 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: for you the most profitable, the most potent drug that 375 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: you are ever going to encounter. And it's called sentinel. 376 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: And he explained fentanyl's benefits from a trafficking perspective to them, 377 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: and the lights go on. This is the first time 378 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: that we have record of the cinaloid drug cartel or 379 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: some elements within it, understanding that there's actually a synthetic 380 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,479 Speaker 1: way of producing a substitute for harrow. No more poppies, 381 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: you don't have to grow poppies anymore, bingo, we can 382 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: make this stuff. And he begins to make it at 383 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: that lab and they begin to ship it and test it. 384 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: Literally there's wire tabs of these guys saying, we tested 385 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: it up in Chicago or we tested it up in Detroit, 386 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: and you know it worked. These guys are like all excited, like, 387 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: oh my god, they've at this devastatingly potent drug. And 388 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: what ends up happening is people begin to die in 389 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: large numbers. That's the first mass mortality moment that we 390 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: see it go several thousand people over the next nine months. 391 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: When is that time period that's too end of a 392 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: Fall of two thousand and five until April of two 393 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: thousand and six, which is when he is busted. But 394 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: still after he's busted, there's another ten kilos that he 395 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: has just sold into the market that kill people for 396 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: another must be three four five months until it all 397 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: tapers off. So you see about a year's worth of death, 398 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: very very pronounced death in the areas where this takes 399 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: place are very very easily identified. Chicago's first, he's selling 400 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: it to the gangs in South Chicago at the time, 401 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: it goes to Detroit, down to Saint Louis, it goes 402 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: out to Philadelphia to begin to see an enormous new 403 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: burst of mortality out of nowhere, and then after he's busted, 404 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: it tapers off and to normal. But in the back 405 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: of their minds, they never forgot fentyl. You know, they 406 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: had this one guy who accluded him into it. He 407 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: wasn't around long enough to really teach everybody how to 408 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: do it, but they found other There's lots of chemists 409 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: in Mexico, There's lots of professors at universities and various 410 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: people that end up doing that. The knowledge base begins 411 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: to spread, particularly in the drug producing regions of western 412 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: Mexico on the Pacific coast, and you begin to see 413 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: that's when you begin to see the production levels that 414 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: allow fentyl to reach beyond just Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, Indiana, Tennessee, 415 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: Southern Virginia, et cetera, which is where they opioid epidemic 416 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: really started and where the big market for fentyl began 417 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: because the quantities being produced are so staggering. In Mexico, 418 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: they have all these chemicals coming in and they're shipping 419 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: it not in little Manila envelopes, They're shipping it in truckloads. 420 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 1: They're shipping it and enormous quantities. They have an enormous 421 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: sophistication and getting it across the border. It's they share 422 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: a two thousand mile border and a free trade agreement 423 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: with the United States, so none of these trucks are 424 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: really being check sufficiently. It would cripple our economy if 425 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: they were, you know. And so you begin to see 426 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: these quantities of fentyl just flooding and covering everything and 427 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: then being added to everything as well. Yeah, and you 428 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: kind of think, like, you know, we've all seen like 429 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: the Narco Show, or you're watching like blow or something 430 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: like that, and you hear like these quantities of like cocaine, 431 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: it seems like the same amount of quantity, but the 432 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: intensity and the actual like pound for pound punches much 433 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: hundred times a thousand times, it's much. Yeah, exactly, you 434 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: have enormous quantities. But with fentanyl. One of the benefits 435 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: of the many benefits to a trafficker is that you 436 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: don't You could smuggle a few kilos and it's massively profitable. 437 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: You know, you don't need truckloads of funnel. I spoke 438 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: with a kid who's in federal prison at the moment 439 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: for doing a number of years in prison, but he 440 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: was out of Orange County, and he said that he 441 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: would buy quarter killers or a half pound of funnel 442 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: from Chinese manufacturers and then produce through the mail again 443 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: and make tens of thousands of counterfeit percocets. And he 444 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: ended up spending per load of funnel that he would get. 445 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: He would spend five thousand dollars for the fentanel and 446 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: generally his profit was on the order of two million. 447 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: You see, the profit is just staggering. Yeah, that's and 448 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: that's your eyes light up with Dallas science. Would you 449 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: hear that if you are drug dealer, five thousand into 450 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: two million? And that's what I say. I mean it 451 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: feels to a lot of people once they begin to 452 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: figure the fentnel out, it feels like they could win 453 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: the lottery with this stuff. You know, It's like and 454 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: then anyone can be a kingpin at that point. That's 455 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: exactly right. Everybody can be a kingpin whether you're not 456 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: you're in your your boxer shorts and your mom's basement, 457 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: you could still be this major mover what would have 458 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: been considered a kingpin sized quantities ten fifteen years earlier. 459 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: Now like anybody can get a hold of it, and 460 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: anybody can be selling it. You see, all kinds of 461 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: people get into the drug business who really have no 462 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: business being in the drug business. They're idiots, they or 463 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: they just don't know. And then when those folks get prosecuted, 464 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: they face kingpin sized prison terms too, right, and then 465 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: the cost as well, margin of air is so much smaller. 466 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: And something that you were discussing the book as well 467 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: is like how the magic bullet that blender that's for 468 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,479 Speaker 1: smoothies that became like the way dealers would mix this 469 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: thing up. Can you talk a little bit about the 470 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: prevalence of the magic bullet in like the overdoses of fentyl, 471 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: Like in that connection, it's amazing to the prom with 472 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: fentyl from a dealer's perspective is it's very potent. So 473 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: what the equivalent of a few grains of salt of 474 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: fentyl will get you high. A couple more will kill you. 475 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: And so you can't just sell that small amount of 476 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: fentanyl on the street. It's not logistically possible to sell 477 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: a few grains of so you have to mix it 478 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: with some other powder that doesn't do anything. It's just 479 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: a cheap powder. So that means that all those lottery 480 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: size profits that fentanyl promises are dependent on your ability 481 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: to actually mix it with something else at which you 482 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 1: can actually sell it on the street. That's when the 483 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: magic bullet takes over. The problem with the magic bullet 484 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: is it's it's an awful machine with which to mix 485 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: fentanyl because it only mixes liquids. Fentanyl isn't usually in 486 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: a powder, and if you try to mix you you 487 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: cannot mix powder with a blade. But all these folks 488 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: would kind of get into this thinking, oh great, I'm magmillions. 489 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to go down to Target buy me a 490 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: twenty nine ninety five Magic bullet blender. And because of that, 491 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: there were so many of those clusters of overdoses who 492 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: which you'll see forty fifty, sixty seventy a weekend. And 493 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: I would say with their are of the drug war too, 494 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: you know, the drug war, the reason it failed in 495 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: a lot of ways is not because we use law enforcement. 496 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: It's because we only use law enforcement, and to me, 497 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: that was the major failing of the drug war up 498 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: to now. So we tried to deal with a problem 499 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: rooted in the brain chemistry with one tool. And the 500 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: truth is we need a variety of things and in 501 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: each community. I think one of the most radical, beautiful, 502 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: revolutionary ideas is you are now seeing people who are 503 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: coming together and like sometimes that is very low tech stuff. 504 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: It's being outside, it's holding a barbecue, it's holding a 505 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: block party. It's not high tech stuff I'm talking about here. 506 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: It's what people have always done. But in America we 507 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: decided in the last forty years it was not necessary 508 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: and we could get away without it because it is difficult, 509 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: it is messy. But the truth is when we try 510 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: to do that, as we have in this country, we 511 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: end up crippling ourselves. And that's what we're seeing. Though. Well, Sam, 512 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: this this is amazing. I highly recommend M. Sam's books. 513 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: You know, Dreamland New York Times bestseller, A fantastic pick 514 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: it up in his newest book that we were just 515 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: talking about today. A lot the least of us True 516 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: Tales of America and Hope in the time of fentanyl 517 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: and meth Sam, thank you again for joining us. I 518 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: love to love to talk about this more um as 519 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: we move forward. I think this could have gone yeah, 520 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: for a very long time and just fascinated by this 521 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: subject and where we're headed. So yeah, I appreciate again, 522 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: thank you every time. Thank you. My pleasure follows. Thanks 523 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: very much for the interest on the book. Yeah, night 524 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: and Greg. Good to talk with you. Thank you for 525 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: breaking it down for us. Appreciate my pleasure. We'll be 526 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: right back with the War on Drugs podcast. You've you've 527 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: worked on some superhero shows and you know origin stories 528 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: are important. It's definitely a good villain origin story or 529 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: it feels like os are breaking bad. Any of those 530 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: shows where you gotta figure your way out the snowfall, 531 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: any of those shows. That's great. So we did a 532 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: little digging, right, what what would we be if we 533 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: couldn't find out some information. Yeah, so we really wanted 534 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: to dive more into like this guy, Harto Valdez Tori 535 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: is right. Yeah, he was called like a cerebro, the brain, 536 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: the cooker, this guy who essentially was given a task 537 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: by the Cineloa cartel, and he says, in his own head, 538 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: I think I can just do this better. I mean 539 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: that those always those people that they they're like, all right, 540 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna outsmart them. But you gotta see it all 541 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: the way through, like when he was probably like, yeah, 542 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: I'm not making the fuck veteran. I'm not doing that shit. 543 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: You know how good at kim as I am. I'm 544 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: about to make this fitting off. They don't even know 545 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: what this shit is. Watches it? Then, I want to 546 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: see that song and dance number. How did you pitch 547 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: that to down? Yeah? You know what I'm saying, like, 548 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: did you have a PowerPoint presentation? You better have had 549 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: some shit, man, you better started singing like uh. But 550 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: he was pitching that Monareil the Springfield on that old episode. 551 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: Ye gotta got the old Timmy Broadway number about this 552 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: ship because hey, we said do this and you gave 553 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: us this, and basically that's what he did. He negotiated 554 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: a focus group. He literally did. Yeah, he was like, hey, 555 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 1: look at all our customers in there. They love this 556 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: new what in Chicago? Yeah, just try it in Chicago. 557 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: It was probably like one of them Bill Gates or 558 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs presentations probably had on a black turtle. You 559 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: know what if I could get you twice as high 560 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: for half as long, would that be something? You're interesting? 561 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: What yah to the cartel? Like these are not okay? Hey? Yeah, 562 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: he held his nuts on that one and he was, 563 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,719 Speaker 1: you know, kind of patient zero this whole thing. This 564 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: went on for a few years and they was blowing 565 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: up and they were bringing in the chemicals like they 566 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: were using a street gang called the Mickey Cobers that 567 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: was big in Chicago at least at that time, and 568 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: essentially using them as the middleman to bring this through. 569 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: They're mixing fentinyl with with heroin and other things. They 570 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: had all these names like Reaper and penicill And that's 571 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: the thing, like they're not even like hiding it, like 572 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: this will kill you. And that was like the attractiveness 573 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: of it. That's what Sam was talking about. Yeah, a 574 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: lot of these people want It's everywhere right now, and 575 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: just you hear too many people die, you hear too 576 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: many people overdose, yet anything out there. Well, I want 577 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: to thank our guests Sam for taking the time to 578 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: talk about this. That was awesome. So with that, I 579 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: appreciate listening to War on Drugs. Yes, thank you. Make 580 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: sure you follow the War on Drugs podcast so you 581 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: don't miss any new episodes or any of our quick 582 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: fixed bonus content. I don't know if it actually helps them. 583 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: Maybe if you follow it and unfollow it and then 584 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: follow it again, and if we get two that don't count, 585 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe you never know. You can that 586 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: trick the algorithm. We'll see, they just give it a shot. 587 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: What's what's the harm? But we'll be back next week 588 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: with another episode of War on Drugs. Until then, thanks 589 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: for listening. Executive producers for War on Drugs are Jason 590 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: Flom and Kevin Wards. Senior producer is Michael Epstein. Editing 591 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: by Nick Massetti and Michael Epstein. Associate producer and mix 592 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: and mastering by Nick Massetti. Additional production by Jeff Claiburne 593 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: and Anna mcintick. All them people made it happen, man. Yeah, Nick, Nick, 594 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: they might gotta get you a bigger check. You got 595 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: about five things you're doing then, buddy, be sure to 596 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: follow the show on all social media accounts you know 597 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: what they are, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, at lava like molten 598 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: lava for good You can follow me on Twitter at 599 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: Greg Glode and Clayton on Instagram at Clayton English. The 600 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: War on Drugs is a production of Lava for Good 601 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: podcast and association with Signal Company Number One. I'm your host, 602 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: Greg Glode and I'm your host Clayton Ing. Thanks for 603 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: listening until next time.